child. forget the immigration context. in the united states we have laws that will separate a child from a truly unfit parent. this court order says basically no more separation absent that the parent is a threat or a danger. >> exactly. >> okay, watching at home you think danger is a word that has to mean something. is this a case where the law needs to be better defind or the trump administration in your view knows better and is being lawless? so here's the thing. i think you put your finger on it. the judge laid out the right standard. under state law you can't take a child away from a parent unless there is a very, very serious offense to the child, abuse or danger. i think that anybody would have understood the court's order, but it seems like the administration is claiming they don't understand it so we're back in court and we're asking the judge to do is still the government, look, i meant what i said. there has to be genuine danger to this child or the parent is unfit. one child got taken away because

some officer decided the parent wasn't changing the diapers quick enough. then there are multiple cases where nonviolent thefts years ago, possession of marijuana decades ago. i mean, we don't believe that anybody could have misjpd whundd what court was doing, but so be it, we're going to be back in court and enforce the court's order. we were shocked to find out there are this many kids for such minor crimes and. >> is family separation over or not? >> no, i mean, i think that's the right point. that our challenge to make clear to the public it's not over. >> you're doing the law thing. i'll do a little bit of the law and some of the politics. people say, oh, does trump get away with everything? the politics of this, the imagery, the backlash was so fierce it is not something where the president's position is, hey, i'll do what i want. as he says on many issues. it was one he resorted to lying. we never really did this and we

certainly don't do it now. you're telling us the evidence you have in this case cuts against that because they are doing it. >> exactly. so the president backed down the first time from the public outcry. we need the public to show that outcry. i think it's our job to get the facts out. what's clear is that family separation is still ongoing and also we're still looking backward. thousands of children were separated that the government's never reported. we're only now hearing through court order about that. we're going to be searching all over the world for those families while we try and stop these ongoing separations. we need the same public outcry we had last summer to happen now. >> there's a lot going on. i think people know that. this is such an important ongoing series of developments in people's lives and you guys have been so dogged about it which creating the evidence that we're really reporting on, lee, thank you so much from the aclu. coming up, we have a lot more on msnbc, not only the post-debate analysis, but about to be speaking to the young man who could be moderating a debate

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on the campaign trail this week elizabeth warren was debuting her trade policy over at the university of toledo in ohio. about 300 people watching. at that campaign event, something somewhat unusual happened. it appeared she got a little stumped. >> as an outspoken critic of the president, what do you think the worst policy is he initiated? >> oh, man. that's hard. >> that's hard. not a typical response from senator warren. but she reflected and then answered her interviewer. >> i guess it's probably taking children away from their families. down at the border. and doing it not to make our country safer, but really doing it to try to hurt human beings. >> a serious answer to a very real question poised to the senator and candidate by this young man, 11-year-old jaden jefferson of toledo, ohio, who

has been honing his craft as a reporter/anchor using the interview, a youtube channel called "jaden reports now" and he got this special interview with warren. as an anchor myself, i'm delighted to say he is our guest tonight right now. joining us, toledo reporter jaden jefferson of "jaden reports now" fresh off the elizabeth warren interview. thanks for joining me. >> oh, no problem. i'm glad to be here. >> great. well, look, what did you want to get out of your interview with senator warren, what did you want to learn, and do you think there is anything different about your interview that than other? >> i would say the one thing that made my interview different was that it was exclusive. no other news organization got that interview. some people on social media say, well, this wasn't exclusive. she's done this with other people. there are a lot of exclusive interviews. the thing about exclusive interviews is they're all unique. >> you know, you're speaking our

language because we love to tout exclusives. when you talk to someone like senator warren, how do you prepare? obviously you seem to be pretty entrepreneurial. you're building this up, as i mentioned, on the internet. what do you do to sort of learn and what do you want people who watch the interview to get from it? >> well, how i prepare for the interview is of course i have to look at that candidate's history. so looking at their website, social media pages to see the issues that they're really big on. from look at those, i can really make a decision on what questions i should ask and really what i want people to get away from this interview is that i'm trying to help them with their vote. i'm not trying to push them to vote for a specific candidate, but i'm trying to push them to, you know, educate themselves on the candidates, and me being on a lot of different things doing politics, it's a tough business, definitely. >> how did you get more interested in both media and politics? plenty of people across plenty of ages have different things, but i think you would agree

you're a little younger than the traditional political interviewer. >> yes. i got into media by, you know, i had -- i had a lot of use of cameras. i like using cameras and audio equipment and i also like writing. and those things are skills that you will use in journalism nowadays, eventually if you're going to be writing, shooting and editing your own stories. so definitely that. and politics for me has always just been, you know, so different. it's always something new and it's always something big. so politics was really something that really caught my attention, and it really -- me being a citizen of the united states, it's really something that applies to me and it's really what's going to help me make my decisions. so, really, politics affects us all and that's why i got into it. >> yeah, and i heard you mention earlier that you try to be objective. you're not push for an outcome. but we do want to get your analysis since i got you here as our special interview on the first of these two debate nights. you obviously interviewed senator warren. how did you think folks did in

the debate? what are you also looking forward to tomorrow night? >> well, so far after watching tonight's debate, i would definitely say from what i've seen i can tell that elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, they kind of had a friendship today and many people were hinting at that, that they do have a friendship but they're still competitors. i've also saw all the other candidates on border policies and things like that. something that really stuck out to me during this debate was marianne williamson who wasn't really, i would say, not at the top and not really speaking as much as she should have. today's debate there was just an odd one out and that was definitely probably marianne williamson. then i also saw candidates like elizabeth warren who also made a lot of great points today and, you know, really trying to get out there to the people and bernie sanders, i would definitely say those two were the people that were really trying to reach to the american

people. >> and then ads for your reporting and the work you're doing, i'm curious, does it intersect with the rest of your life at school? are people seeing your work? is it getting more known? is the fame going for your head at 11? how are you balancing all of that? i'm sure some of our viewers if they watched you break it down for a few minutes might be impressed and think you're pretty mature, pretty p precocious, but as far as i know, living the life of an 11-year-old. >> i still have school. i go back in august. that's coming up soon. definitely i try to balance it. this next week is going to be full of interviews and things because our local stations here in toledo, they are trying to set up interviews, newspapers. so i'm really trying to balance it out, but never when i did that interview did i think it would go as viral as it did. >> yeah. and i'm curious before i let you go because we can always learn from people with different experiences, what do you think that you see sometimes adult reporters maybe don't fully get about the younger generation or

the way the internet has changed the way people communicate or the way you're using youtube or anything else, i'm just curious because everyone brings different things to the table. is there anything you think we should focus on or learn more from younger up and coming reporters? >> one thing up and coming reporters, we're in an age of social media and, really, it's a lot more easy to get your work out there, your reels and those types of things. my advice, go to social media. that's where a lot of people are at and that's how you're going to reach a good population. and tv, trust me, it's going to be here forever. that's where i get -- that's where a lot of people get most of their news, from tv. so tv and social media are both ways to get out to people. i would say for up and coming reporters and current reporters, take use of social media because that's how you're going to get recognized and that's how you're going to get your point across. >> very well put, jaden. it's a treat talk to you. if we're ever out in the field i hope to meet you one day. seems like you're going to be keeping busy, sir. >> thank you.

>> thank you so much. what a great interview for us to do here as we kick off our post-debate coverage. now, any moment when we wrap we're going to hand it over to brian williams. as i mentioned earlier in our broadcast, chris matthews also out there in michigan for us. before i go any further, though, i want to bring in one of our analysts right now, karine jean-pierre, who i think viewers recognize from a lot of political nights. nice to see you. >> happy debate night. >> happy debate night. i'm so glad i got to get the ground report from jaden. >> that was so dosh. >> 11. he was on top of it. >> firing on all cylinders. what jumped out to you here as the debate is wrap? >> for me the three people that stuck out to me was warren, sanders and buttigieg. i think they had a really solid, solid evening. they were only three to me that talked about actual policies and details, specifics, and they really had a moment to shine. and even if you look at the folks who had the most time, the most speaking time, those were the top three.

i would also say that, oh, man, it's still fluid. i cannot wait for the third debate where i think it will be a lot more, you know, will be truncated, won't be all of these people because i think it's harder to really get a sense of where we are in this field because there are going to be two. one tonight and one tomorrow. ten on stage. it's really hard to kind of get to what these candidates are talking about. what's their vision? how they see the future of this country. so it's still fluid. i don't think anything will change. it's not going to change at all where the standing of these folks are. but it's good to kind of hear from folks and where they see their vision and how they're going to move the country forward as much as they can with ten people on the stage. >> right. with these big nights as we've seen. well, we got a big night. you're going to be staying with us for our post-debate analysis. >> i'll be here. >> we'll be hearing a lot more. i want to turn our to post-debate coverage anchored by brian williams. brian? >> counselor, thank you.

thank you for your during the debate coverage. viewers of the debate tonight in the fox theater in detroit we hope kind of migrate over to us. officially good evening from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. night one of round two of the democratic debates wrapped up as you saw just moments ago, but from the all-important state of michigan. more on that in a bit. the liberal democrats, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, took center stage and the sparks immediately started to fly over health care. >> medicare for all is comprehensive. it covers all health care needs for senior citizens. it will finally include dental care, hearing aids and eyeglasses. >> but you don't -- >> second of all -- >> you don't know that, bernie. >> we'll come to you in a second, congressman. >> i do know and i wrote the damn bill. >> under medicare for all, the hospitals will save substantial amounts of money because they're not going to be spending a fortune doing billing and the

other bureaucratic things. >> i did the math. >> maybe you did that and made money off of health care. our job is to run a nonprofit health care system. >> listen, his math is wrong. that's all i'm saying. >> these insurance companies do not have a godgiven right to make $23 billion in profits and suck it out of our health care system. >> it is time to stop worrying about what the republicans will say. >> yeah. >> look, if it's true that we embrace a far-left agenda, they're going to say we're a bunch of socialists. if we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they're going to do? they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. so let's stand up for the right policy, go out there and defend it. >> more on all of that as we go on. also tonight, congressman tim ryan of ohio offered his take on what it's going to take to win against president trump in 2020. >> in this discussion already tonight, we've talked about taking private health insurance away from union members in the industrial midwest, we've talked about decriminalizing the border, and we've talked about

giving free health care to undocumented workers when so many americans are struggling to pay for their health care. i, quite frankly, don't think that that is an agenda that we can move forward on and win. we've got to talk about the working-class issues, the people that take a shower after work who haven't had a raise in 30 years. >> thank you. >> if we focus on that we'll win the election. >> interesting moment there. the split between the more liberal and moderate candidates was on full display tonight. there were major disagreements over what democrats should be running on. >> i don't understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the united states just to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. i don't know. >> i think democrats win when we run on real solutions not impossible promises. when we run on things that are workable not fairytale economics. >> that was a moment, and along those same lines at one point sanders made clear he's fed up with some in his party shying

away from big ideas. >> i get a little by tired of democrats afraid of big ideas. republicans are not afraid of big ideas. they could give a trillion dollars in tax breaks to billionaires and profitable corporations. they can bail out the crooks on wall street. so please don't tell me that we cannot take on the fossil fuel industry and nothing happens unless we do that. ♪ again, more on all of that as we go along. and joining us here for our leadoff discussion, eugene robinson, pulitzer prize winning columnist for "the washington post." claire mccaskill, former democratic senator from the great state of missouri. joy reid, the host of "a.m. joy," weekends here on msnbc. and lawrence o'donnell, our normal occupant of this hour, the host of the 10:00 p.m. eastern hour on this network,

"the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. ste steve kornacki is at the big board. and in the spin room, chris matthews, the host of "hardball." chris, i'd like to start with you and your reaction from detroit. it seems to me that the invisible participant in the room tonight might have been tom friedman and the notions expressed in his column. you can have a revolution, democrats, or you can try to win 2020, but as he put it, as he sees it, you can't do both. >> and if you're coming into the country illegally, at least ring the doorbell before you come in. another line from that column. i was shattered by today, shook up by tonight's debate. to me it was a very -- really -- what's the right word? zealous difference in point of view and passion. i think four or five of the people came in tonight to take on the progressive left, to take on bernie, to take on elizabeth warren.

certainly came in and said they got a wish list, the other guy, delaney, said they were offering free everything. ryan said they're going to -- for backing fantastic economics he called it. hickenlooper said, you know, it's all big government jobs for everybody. not going to sell. so those people were challenging the people on the left tonight. the people on the left were like butch cassidy in "the sundance kid." warren and bernie were basically covering each other as they fought off everyone else. it was interesting to watch. i thought they might go to battle with each other. in fact, they were fighting everyone else. so it was a left against a center situation tonight. >> with our thanks to garrett haake for putting a microphone in there, we just missed bernie who is heading to the postgame show at cnn's facilities. >> yeah. >> it's their event, after all. chris, this happens in debates. as much a discussion about who they are, how they want to present themselves as a party,

as their was how they're going to beat this guy in 2020. if they're going to be successful. >> well, i think they were dealing with serious issues tonight. there's no doubt about it. with serious issues, there's no doubt. let's talk about the issue that really drove donald trump's campaign last time, illegal immigration, undocumented workers, if you will. they talked about making it non-criminal to come in the country illegally. okay. that's going a little bit further away from trump. on health care, they talked about basically medicare your whole life or government-run health care. that's going to cost more money. obviously, if you pay in, all of us do now for medicare if you reach age 65, you'll have to pay more into it to pay for health care your whole life. warren wouldn't answer that question, bernie said that's republican talking points. on the third one, they really disagreed on the green new deal.

past, present and future, it seems like they hit on the big ones tonight. >> chris, we're going to come back to you. i know you're going to start receiving a steady stream of some of the ten figures we saw on the stage tonight. >> yes. >> and i noticed our friend rick wilson said on twitter this evening, ten people makes for bad television, as he put it there, i said it. senator, since you are the one in the studio whose name was last on a ballot, i am so curious to hear what you made of what you saw tonight. by the way, there were other issues we'll get to. what was that on mayor pete's forehead? a huge issue on social media. and we're going to have to talk about the moderators in moderation tonight, a huge topic on social media. with that i hand it to you. >> i think the governors and the mayor did a good job tonight emphasizing, you know, these guys are in washington. they're not getting it done.

i mean, how long -- think they added up hundreds of years these candidates, all the candidates have been in washington. they haven't fixed immigration, they haven't got the price of insulin down. so let's try a different way. and i will say, and i've said before, i think people underestimate "the insidethe n d the insider/outsider sensibility right now. there is sensitivity in washington right now. most americans believe it's swampy. this is the first time i heard candidates make an effort to highlight the fact that, hey, we get things done. i thought buttigieg did a good job, especially on campaign finance. it's something i know is very high up on the list on voters' minds. >> joy reid, same question. >> there was a lot of them up there. i guess the good news is there

are two lanes here, right? >> boy, did we see that. >> there is sort of a hope and future lane, and tomorrow we'll have more of those candidates who will be on stage. there are three lanes. the second one is obviously the clear progressive lane which warren and sanders share. i was surprised they didn't try to narrow that down. they did seem, as chris said, to be kind of on the same team fighting off all the moderates to their left and to their right on that stage. but among the moderates, the job was to then narrow it down and become the moderate. because right now joe biden occupies that lane of being the moderate. and the only alternative to him is going to be a governor or maybe mayor pete buttigieg. i was looking to see if one of them was going to stand out as the one guy who could be the last moderate standing. i'm not sure that any of them stood out for me in a sense that they were going to be able to eliminate the others. they're all at 1.0%. i thought buttigieg did a good job of being the one that was young that could maybe be

moderate to a party that wants a future candidate but still wants a moderate and somebody who wants to scare them. i thought delaney did a good job as the puginist to bring down warren and sanders. because she was kind of on paper first, it was a good night for warren. nobody took her down. >> i strongly agree with that last line. it was elizabeth warren's debate going in and it stayed that way all the way through. i didn't see anybody gain on her at any point in it. bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, i don't think so much they made a tactical decision not to argue with each other. there is nothing to argue about. so it would look very strange if one of them tried to find a sliver of space between them. i think there might be three categories there, the moderates, the liberals and pete buttigieg

who i think wants to sound like a moderate in some moments and wants not to in other moments. and i think chooses those very carefully. so i think he actually lives in between those two spaces. of the people clearly occupying the moderate side of the stage, i actually thought tim ryan had the best night by far. i thought he never had a misstep. you can disagree with his policies, but he was very clear in stating them. he's from ohio, which we must never forget, and he doesn't let you forget. >> he's given us eight presidents. >> yeah. and the other one who is kind of near that category is beto o'rourke that, because he's from tex texas, does not embrace all the liberal positions. he stressed the 38 votes in texas because there is a poll that shows beto o'rourke beats trump by double digits over trump. at the top of the game tonight,

elizabeth warren seemed to hold her position and had, i think, some very, very strong moments in going back against candidates like delaney and governor bullock, especially on the nuclear first strike question. elizabeth warren had a real presidential posture in the way she expressed herself about that. the governor started to stumble in his struggle with her over should we have a policy of announcing that the united states will never use nuclear weapons as a first strike. elizabeth warren said yes, we should have that policy. the governor tried to argue about that, and it looks like she really -- i felt she dominated that section really strongly. >> can i say she also had the line of the night. elizabeth warren's line, why even come here if all you're going to talk about is what we can't do. this sort of, you can't argue against delaney. i thought it was the argument of the night. >> when pete looked at the camera and challenged all the

republicans, that was a very strong moment. >> i thought buttigieg's line of the night was, if we go with a bunch of far left policies, they're going to cause a bunch of crazy socialists. and if we go with a bunch of conservative policies, they'll call us a bunch of crazy conservatives. i thought that was a solid line. look, i want to go there. the clear intent was to spark fights. you go after you, and you over there, go after that one over there. that was -- that seemed to be the point of the moderation, and so in all that fighting about policy, i'm not sure any of the candidates got that much of a chance to be presidential, to show leadership. >> i have to interrupt you, eugene, only because garrett haake has now nabbed jim ryan. >> reporter: you talked about providing health care for

illegals and you're against it. >> for undocumented people, if they want to be able to buy health care, they should be able to buy it. we can't be paying for undocumented people to get free health care while every american is asked to pay for their health care. >> that's against what biden, sanders and warren thesaid. >> we disagree. how are you going to tell people in my congressional district of youngstown, ohio they're working their rear off to buy health care for their families and undocumented families will get free health care? that's not going to work, and it's not fair, quite frankly. the undocumented workers should be able to pay for health care, it just shouldn't be free. >> what happens in a district like yours if someone like that is at the top of the ticket? does it make it hard for democrats to win in youngstown, ohio? >> it makes it very hard. if a young nominee is talking about taking private health care

away, i think we'll lose 48 states. and i'm having a hard time with the two we will win. >> you have two in center stage pushing the exact opposite direction. >> what's their combined percentage. 25, 26, 27%? which means 75% of the democratic primary voter is necessarily enthralled with that, and what i'm trying to do, being from youngstown, ohio is to say this is a very dangerous proposition. >> thank you, senator. senator sanders. >> that was a critical moment right there, a repetition of what we heard in the room from the monthed raderates. if you take away health care from 150 million adults, there will be electoral hell to pay.

tim ryan kind of being the guy tonight on that stage, one among many numerically representing rural america and middle america, in his case, youngstown, ohio. just to reset, we're about to go to chris matthews who has senator amy klobuchar, but this is coverage. our post-debate coverage from the first ten. tomorrow night the second group of ten from the fox theater in detroit, michigan. chris, are you ready? >> yes, i am. i've got senator amy klobuchar of minnesota with us, and i want to ask you about the dichotomy tonight between the very progressive people, bernie sanders, democratic socialist, a very tough reformer, what i would call a structural change position, senator warren. then on the other side, all the other moderates challenging them. where are you on this? are you in the middle? >> yes, and i consider myself a proven progressive because i've

gotten things done. i think there is more unanimity than you could tell by tonight because they're looking for divides. i think people, one, want to win. two, they want to bring down the cost of health care, they just have different ways to get there. and my point here is i'm not e running for chair of the democratic national committee, i'm running for president. that means you have to put out front and center how you think you're going to get there. i think the best way is with a competitive public option. you can do it with medicaid or medicare, and i don't think it's less bold. barack obama wanted to do that. it was bold then, it's bold today, it's just that we have a disagreement how to get there. on page 8 of bernie's bill, on page 8 it says basically half of america will lose their current insurance, and i don't agree with that. >> what about the question that jake tapper kept asking that you got no answer to? right now when you have medicare, you have it after age

65. obviously if it's going to cover your entire life, it's going to require a higher tax. and they wouldn't answer that. >> they don't want to answer that because it looks good on a bumper sticker to say it and it's very appealing. i will say one thing we all agree with, and that's that the republicans stand for medicare cuts for all, so there's one argument, but on our side people want to legitimately build on the affordable care act. i just want to follow that doctor's creed and do no harm. >> what i heard tonight was decriminalize people who are undocumented. basically, don't make it a crime. is that a way of responding to trump saying, i want a wall? or is it going in a totally different direction? >> i think trump has gotten our country to this place with the chaos he's created at the border using these people as political pawns. he wants this to be the argument. i try to take it to another place, chris, i really did. that means we need immigration

reform. pete buttigieg said there is no will to do it. there was. we passed it in 2013. now we ever the house of representatives that wants to get it done, and you just need a president not to wait until the end of their term, which has now happened with two presidents, it has to happen right away and that is my goal. that means half the citizenship, and it means more money to make sure we're handling those asylum cases. >> amy klobuchar, you were a great contestant tonight. i think contestant is the right word. >> it's "game of thrones." >> steve kornacki standing by at the board with how the numbers may back up what we saw tonight. >> interesting, that dynamic you're talking about, sort of the moderate candidates going after msanders, going after warren. we have the data that measures some of the issues that came up. the folks that vote in the primary versus the general

election voters. the question of medicare for all without private insurance, that was a major part of this debate tonight. you see democratic voters more than two to one support this. 61% support, 31% opposed. ask the same question to all americans. general election voters, the folks who vote in november, very different story. 41% say it's a good idea. a majority 54% say it's a bad idea. how about this one? how about decriminalizing border crossings. that obviously came up today as it did tonight. democrats are split on this question. 45 support, 47 oppose. how about all general election voters' overwhelming opposition on that. 27-66. another issue you heard about, this is national health insurance. should there be a program that makes it available to undocumented immigrants. again, among democrats, basically 2-1 support. 61-32 among general election voters, complete opposite. one more that came up late in the night, that question of

reparation payments amongst democrats. 46 support, 40% say bad idea. among voters again, 27-62. you see the sort of moderate candidates. this is what they're trying to express on that stage. but when the energy on the democratic side is somewhere else, that's the power behind those comebacks you heard from warren and sanders. >> steve kornacki, thank you. to our viewers, steve has some fascinating numbers later tonight on the similarities and differences between the warren camp and the sanders camp which we kind of saw play out on stage tonight, but to joy reid's point, not a whole heck of a lot of effort to differentiate. senator, a very direct question having to do with youngstown, ohio, having to do with a place i lived, joplin, missouri. what happens when you walk into those communities and say, great news. you're all going to get green jobs. we'll need the keys to your f-150s because we're going all

electric. >> it would not be good. and i think what tim ryan is trying to express is a bucket of cold water, which is reality about where america is. america is generally not as far along the left line as bernie and elizabeth. free stuff from the government does not play well in the midwest. because they're just convinced that they're never the ones getting the free stuff. you know, they're working really hard and they can't afford to retire. and that was part of the thing that trump did. he said basically, i'm going to tap into your anger and your angst. we're going to blame the mexicans and the muslims for everything that's wrong with the world, and a lot of people who voted for barack obama said, you know, maybe this guy is finally going to -- let's pull the pin on the grenade and toss it and see what happens. as it turns out, that was a dumb thing to do. but i think the reality is that

if you start saying that we're going to elect folks coming across the border have no criminal penalty, and we're going to allow them to get access to free health care through medicaid programs, then you are going to lose a whole slew of voters that aren't crazy about donald trump but are not going to go there. it really would be, i think, a very difficult thing to overcome in states like michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, iowa, north carolina, the states that we really need to win. >> eugene, i interrupted you earlier and i apologize. i'm obviously playing defvil's advocate here, but same question, youngstown, job lynpl missouri. we're going to take that health insurance you get through your spouse's employment or your

employment. >> if you construct a plan and it's beautifully detailed and just a beautiful thing to provide universal health care, and somehow that gets framed as you're taking stuff away from people, then you're not going to get to do it, right? that's not going to happen. if that's what you're going to do, you're going to have to explain to people why it's such a wonderful thing, why you're giving them, why they're getting more and better if you're going to make it happen. and, you know, from what i've seen of the sanders/warren plans, i just don't think they actually did a very good job of making that transition of expressing medicare for all and universal health care as a good

thing as opposed to -- in part that's because they were constantly on the defensive by delaney and ryan and others, but you got to defend your policies. they were down in the weeds. i thought this debate was conducted, you know, about six inches below the top of the weeds, and it was hard to see the other waves of grain. >> tonight included one man who made his bones and his money in the private sector and thought it felt for a while there the private sector was under fire. chris matthews standing by with mr. delaney. >> thank you, brian. it does seem like bernie was hitting every industry there was and attacking them. he was going after the health industry and everything, the fossil fuel, then he went after you personally for being in the health industry and said he made money off you. >> i created thousands of jobs and i actually financed thousands of health care

providers, including rural hospitals, and helped them deliver care. i mean, senator sanders is a socialist in many ways. he doesn't like the private economy. i'm going to stand up because i believe in entrepreneurianism, i believe in capital industry, but he wants health care to be non-profit. whats th what's that saying to physicians and people who have engaged in for-profit health care running -- >> do you think he's more of a socialist tonight than usual? >> i think he came off as not liking the private economy. let's leave it at that. >> he accused jake tapper, who i think did a great job tonight, of using a republican talking point. isn't a republican talking point to ask what something costs? are you allowed to ask will taxes go up on medicare for a lifetime? >> it was a great question. i just think his answer and senator warren's answer to anyone who criticizes one of

their plans is that's a republican talking point. that's an intolerant approach. you need to say, why is my plan workable -- why is your plan workable, how are you going to pay for it, and how are you going to get it done? those are the three questions everyone should answer. i don't think they could answer those questions. >> i wrote down the big lines tonight. four or five of you guys came in tonight to go after the progressives. you, ryan, bullock and hickenlooper. your line was, free everything. is that what you think, free everything? >> write off every student loan. what about the ones who just paid off their loans? they'll feel like fools. what about the little kids? >> could you back one of these people for president after tonight? could you back sanders? you say you're in this race to fight socialism. would you vote for sanders? >> yes, i'm going to support the democrat. we have a lawless president.

we have an immoral president. >> so sanders. >> he's running as a democrat. i'm going to work really hard at changing his mind, but i'm going to win so i don't have to answer that question. >> thank you, chris matthews. well, joy reid, there's the debate. take any or all. >> first of all, that was the first time tonight i heard the word socialist used. if john delaney's goal was to come onto that stage and paint senator sanders as a socialist, which he's a democratic socialist, he gave a speech talking about democratic socialism, which i think is his biggest challenge. because that would be -- if he was hit with that in a general election, it would be true. he did a speech, embracing it. he would be, that would be the frame around him if he's the nominee. >> you're saying delaney wasted a shot? >> why did he take that shot now after the debate is over, rather than turn to him and say, but senator sanders -- if he thinks

that what bernie sanders is saying is socialism, why didn't he ask him that? i think that's a wasted moment on his part. to eugene's point, it's all about framing, right? elizabeth warren has the advantage of really explaining things in a simple way. she did better than sanders did just explaining in a calm and simple way what she wants to do. tariffs, had that been framed as, we're going to tax every single thing you buy and slap a tax on it when it comes in, tariff wouldn't have sounded like such a great idea in youngstown, ohio. donald trump was able to frame it that china is paying for it, which isn't true. democrats don't frame their rg um -- arguments in a way that makes sense. if medicare wasn't a scary thing, this was a time in very simple terms to explain what it is. advantage goes to warren because she did make the point, and the

point was made somewhat with the question, that she wants to do similar things to senator sanders but she's a capitalist. so at least she can eliminate that as an attack on her. it is surprising to me that if that was delaney's goal, he didn't achieve it. he achieved it now, but it's a bit late. >> lawrence o'donnell, including, but not limited to, free college education. these are big yawning targets, and to joy's point, if it didn't get attacked on the stage tonight, leave it to, you know, the american media to attack it now. >> yeah, and like the health care discussion, most of the questions in the debate and the most contentious elements of the debate were all about things that are not up to the president of the united states. there was one -- the first clear question that was up to the president of the united states came well over an hour in, and it was, do you support the trump steel tariffs to which delaney

said everything but yes or no and said everything he wants to make tough on china. sanders said, no, he's absolutely against the trump tariffs which they are all illegal. they are all based on a national security provision of trade law, and i'm afraid washing machines are not a national security issue. so when you listen to a half an hour of ten democrats debating health care, you are listening to the person who is running for the job where you will beg the chairman of the house ways and means committee and the chairman of the senate finance committee to consider some of the ideas you talked about in the presidential campaign, but they will write the bill. and they will consult the president minimally as they write the bill, and senators like claire mccaskill and others

will decide what's actually going to be in it. which is why a great television moment that bernie sanders won decisively with the audience in the room, and probably with the tv audience, was the clash he had with tim ryan where tim ryan, in the middle of bernie's description of what's in his bill, tim ryan said, but you don't know what's in the bill, which i took to mean, you don't know what the ways and means committee and the finance committee are going to do in the end -- >> exactly. >> that's what i took it to mean, which bernie said, i wrote the bill, and he won the moment. but the reality is he's not going to write the bill if he's president of the united states. >> and by the way, he wrote a lot of bills that never went anywhere. your point is so important, lawrence, because unless the democrats take the senate and decide to do away with the filibuster, which they will not do, the institution will hold 60 votes. now, does anybody think that a

plan that will give a guaranteed job to everyone will get 60 votes? does anybody think doing away with all the private insurance in the country is going to get 60 votes? >> free college. >> that's why the other candidates talked about practici pragmatism so much. they know the big stuff has to be bipartisan. >> even if you get a filibuster footnote, there will still be budgetary points of order against the bill that will require 60 votes even if there is no filibuster. >> the challenge for these ten people, i mean, and god help us, the next debate, hopefully there will be eight. >> we're right back here tomorrow night. >> that's right, yeah. the chat lellenge is you don't for president based on what's going to happen with your bills. you have to inspire people. the job is to inspire the electorate to let you lead them. all the president is going to do is try to lead the american people to be dignified.

i liked at the end what amy klobuchar said. i'm not going to embarrass you. you'll be proud to turn on the tv when the president is on. that's your job. so somebody who stood there and sounded like someone you would want to be led by, that was the challenge tonight. i thought elizabeth warren did a good job with that, i thauought buttigieg did a good job, i thought bernie sanders did a good job. amy klobuchar started talking about bills. that's not the way to run the country. as we go to a break, i want to show you the message mayor pete had tonight for republican office holders already referenced here this evening. >> the only reason we got this president is that normal didn't work. we have to be ready to take on

this president, and by the way, something that hasn't been talked about much tonight, take on his enablers in congress. when david duke ran for congress, ran for governor, the republican party 20 years ago ran away from it. today they are supporting naked racism in the white house. if you are watching this at home and you are a republican member of congress, consider the fact that when the sun sets on your career and they are writing your story of all the good and bad things you did in your life, the thing you will be remembered for is whether in this moment with this president you found the courage to stand up to him or you continue to put party over concept. concept.

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what do you do with an industry that knowingly put billions of dollars in short-term profits is destroying this planet? i say that is criminal activity that cannot be allowed for the people. >> senator, your response? >> i didn't say we could get there until 2040, bernie. you don't have to yellme. all i'm saying is we have to invent our way out of this thing, and if we're waiting for 2040 for a ban to come in on gasoline vehicles, we're screwed. so we better get busy now. >> maybe some ohio common sense from the congressman from youngstown, ohio who is standing by with chris matthews. chris? >> thank you, i'm here with tim ryan. i sense that you can tell who is

going down in the polls. bernie has been going down for a while, and he was really sort of zealous tonight. my question to you, as you pointed out, these were fantastic economics these people pointed out. the united states senate, you got lawrence o'donnell, former staff director as a colleague, you had to get 60 votes for any programmatic change, and your colleagues are talking about this big stuff. a whole new health care program for the whole country. i would wonder what they're thing aboin thinking about in terms of who is going to pass this stuff. >> that's why we have to find issues in which we agree. manufacturing is supported by 80% of the american people. we're not having a big discussion about the climate, we're talking about manufacturing. and then i brought up the agriculture piece. that's supported by republicans and libertarian farmers who don't even think climate change is manmade but they want the carbon and the soil. move on that. let's find these issues that we can move on.

>> what do you think your people that want to vote for you in northeastern ohio, when they hear the democrats are not going to push for real border enforcement but they're going to decriminalize it. what's the reaction going to be? >> it's not a good one. people are open-hearted, they're okay with people coming in, they're okay with asylum seekers, but if you're just going to walk into the country and it's not going to be any penalty at all, criminal penalty at all, it doesn't fly. and then the next step was free health care for undocumented workers, and i said, look, they can pay for health care, too, but how do you tell someone in ohio that someone else is getting free health care as an undocumented worker, and oh, by the way, you're busting your rear end every single day to pay for your family's health care. >> what do you think the people running against you think of free health care for people coming over the border illegally? why do they think of that when there's so many people that are not covered now?

>> i don't know. >> is there an idealogical difference between you and bernie, for example? is there an idealogical difference? >> i think on some of these issues, there are. i'm for government doing positive things, too, but you can't take someone's private insurance away from them. as i explained, they're union members who negotiated the contracts who said, we're not going to take some of these wages but we're going to pay for health care. >> someone follows the law or you go to jail, right? you pay it for 50 years, and if you live longer than that, you get it for coverage. the bernie plan, you get it your wheel life with no tax increase. >> no tax increase, no co-pays, no premiums. i support everybody having health care. i took the lumps with obamacare. i supported a public option with obamacare, but we've got to find something that's going to get enough votes in the senate to actually move the needle. >> he throws in free dental, free eyeglasses and everything

for life, right? and pays off all student debt. is that what you meant by fantastic economics tonight? >> well, it's $40 trillion over the next ten years. trillion, with a t. and we've got a trillion-dollar annual deficit. we've got to be smart about this. we've got to move the ball down the field. i'm as aspirational as the next person, but you have to get 60 votes in the senate. >> i think the democrats really debated tonight, center and left, and it was very healthy to hear that debate because of you. thank you. >> thanks a lot. take care. >> chris, thanks. robert costa has joined us, national political reporter with the "washington post" and host of washington we"washington wee. that discussion right there encapsulates so much of what we heard tonight. you got one side of the party offering free salad bar and

breadsticks, everything right up to that, and the other side of the party trying to be the moderate saying, we can't promise this stuff. >> but a tricky night, brian, for many of the moderates on stage like congressman ryan, who is best known in politics for running against speaker pelosi to take control of the gavel. whether it was former governor hickenlooper of colorado or senator klobuchar of minnesota or congressman ryan, they found themselves actually not serving from question to question as the foil against the liberal favorites on stage, senator sanders and senator warren. instead it was a wealthy former congressman from maryland and john delaney who seemed to play that role time and again. so you didn't see a breakout performance from any of those moderates who want to own that space in the race. you did see mayor buttigieg trying to navigate being on the left, being on the center left and not getting lumped into the left camp or the center camp. but no real breakthrough for the center tonight. >> how, in your view, does

tonight affect tomorrow night? >> where were the mepntions of vice president biden? he leads almost every single poll, yet reluctance among those on stage tonight to go after him. but that doesn't mean it's not coming tomorrow. you talk to top aides to senator booker. i spoke to senator booker himself bringing up the '94 crime bill, intervention in iraq and the president's support for that. it will probably be a dramatic night based on reporting tonight with center stage. a difficult night for crowded moderates, no one breaking out, and senator sanders or senator warren not interested in going after each other. >> mayor buttigieg took it right to the republicans, though we were kind of surprised no mention of the "i" word tonight. >> no mention of the "i" word, impeachment. you still have all these candidates from governor bullock of montana, a new face trying to introduce himself, mayor buttigieg trying to come back in

the race a little bit still has a significant fundraising haul, dealing with racial issues in south bend. talking about structural reform, coming back to the issue of fate. this was a night where you saw candidates underscore their candidacies as they try to stay in this race if they're hovering around 1% or 2% like congressman o'rourke. and if you're pete buttigieg, you're trying to remind voters why you're near that top tier. >> and bob, tif you're chief of staff of joe biden tonight wa g watching this in a hotel suite doing pre-game for tomorrow, what's your advice? >> your advice is be careful, mr. biden, because none of these rivals opened your lines. they're saying, i could take

that line of attack against joe biden tomorrow. he's a weak rival and they want to feast on him wednesday night politically, if at all possible. >> robbeert costa, thank you. talk about the word electability. >> electability. >> the e word. define it. it's kind of like you know it if you see it. >> all these candidates, including elizabeth warren and bernie, are saying, we are electable. it's too damn many people for the american voter to kind of sift through all this. i will say on bob 's point abou joe biden tomorrow night, what his delivery is tomorrow night may be more important than his

substance. he looked tentative in the last debate. the reason that bob is getting reporting that, you know, they sense as a ruvulnerability is t wasn't strength there. so even if he gets a fact wrong, he'll have to pifvot and punch. he is going to have to pivot and punch. if cory comes after him, he'll have to pivot and punch. if mcconnell comes after him, he'll have to pivot and punch. he can't be the joe that none of us recognized when he said, my time is up. this is not joe biden. no one said to quit talking. you can't get him to quit talking. he can't do that tomorrow night. i actually think that his delivery is going to be maybe more important than anything else, because if he has a weak delivery tomorrow night, then you're going to see even more willingness to take him on because -- and frankly, i think

that's one of the reasons elizabeth didn't take on bernie. i think she thinks this is going to happen naturally, that bernie is going to go down and she is going to go up. maybe i'm wrong about that, but my sense is it's working for her now without taking him on, why should she change what she's doing? >> lawrence, i've done a couple of these. we've tried locomotive lights aiming at the candidates. we tried bells. we went through a buzzer period. but no one in the history of recorded debates has said, my time is up. >> he's a gentleman. i guess that's the thing. he's not going to do that tomorrow night. i do think it's a really tough challenge if you were doing debate prep for the people who were on tonight to say, okay, here is a way you can attack biden tonight. it's much easier to do if he's standing there. it's very hard to reach out to the room to the person who is not there. donald trump, on the other hand, you can do that with, and i was a little surprised people didn't

cite donald trump more. in fact, the first two words elizabeth warren spoke were "donald trump" in her opening statement. she went after donald trump in her opening statement more than anyone else, and it was one who stayed focused on trump more than the other candidates. trump is always there, so when people are thinking about, how do i throw my punch? a punch thrown at donald trump will be rewarded as much or more than any punch you throw at another democrat on that stage. it doesn't have to be, i'm going to hilt the candidate beside me in order to advance. you can take a shot at the candidate you hope to be running against in the general election. the democratic primary audience is going to reward that. >> at some point one of these candidates needs to grow to fulfill the theoretical role of president, and i think that was one of the things that was missing tonight. i thought the five moderate members there all sort of mushed together at a certain point. none of them really rose out of the screen. tomorrow night is different.

because tonight i felt like was a debate directed at white moderate voters, to be blunt. this was directed at white midwestern voters to see who they would pick out of the five moderate except for buttigieg, who is a central moderate. the third leg in the stool for the democratic party is voters of color. tomorrow night will be both of the black candidates. you will have elizabeth warren who was the winner of the last debate. she's next to joe biden. joe biden is also -- a mean kamala harris. and joe biden is also the candidate of older black voters. that's why he's in first place. it's because of older black voters and that's why he's still in place. >> julian castro, too. >> julian castro had a great night in the last debate on the first night. so you have a lot of candidates going for the third leg in a stool. i think it will be a different

debate. voters of color tend to be to the left of the democratic party. they tend -- they're more pragmatic. african-american voters just want to win. >> and elizabeth warren in the spin room. >> the things that touched their lives every single day. 2020 is not just about determining the direction of this country for four years or eight years, it's about generations to come. and we need to say as democrats that we get it and here's our vision for how we're going to do it. >> senator, the question of costs for medicare for all, you were asked whether people's middle class taxes would go up. you said their costs would go down, but can you address directly whether taxes like mine will go up? >> i'll say it again. costs will go up for billiona e billionair billionaires, they'll go up for corporations and costs for middle class families will go down. it's costs that matter. i spent my life studying why people go broke, and a huge

portion of them go broke because of health care costs and those are people who have health insurance. i talked tonight about eddie ba barkin, someone who has to spend about $900 a month to get the medical insurance his doctor says he needs. his wife is on the phone every night begging, begging them to cover what he needs. we can't sustain a system like that. they sucked $23 billion in profits last year. >> are you alienating parts of the electorate? are you worried that's going to happen? >> you used donald trump who

alienated parts of the electorate? the democratic party isn't ready for it. >> donald trump has a vision of how to win and he's gone out there and done it. he says if there's something wrong with your life, if your life is not working, if you're under economic pressure. blame them. blame people who don't look like you, blame people who don't sound like you, blame people who weren't born where you were born, blame people who don't worship like you. i have a very different story about what's wrong. what's wrong right now is we have a government, we have a washington that works great for the wealthy, for the well-connected, the people with money. it's just not working for anyone else. but in a democracy we got a chance to change that, and that's what 2020 is all about. >> i think he was arguing that trump didn't alienate a portion of the voters last time around. be that as it may, a break for our coverage. when we come back, we'll go to steve kornacki at the wall. t thl

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i think if we're going to force americans to make these radical changes, they're not going to go along. throw your hands up, but you have -- us governors and mayors are the ones that we have to pick up all the pieces which suddenly the government is supposed to take over all these responsibilities, and there's no

preparation. you can't just spring a plan on the world and expect it to succeed. >> in other words, one of the moderates holding the liberals accountable for a long shopping list of items that we would eventually have some say in. former governor hickenlooper is standing by with chris matthews. chris? >> thank you so much, brian. well, that was pretty well introduced there, because you got him to wave his hands like he was doing, and you said, you're not going to intimidate with that. that's what he was trying to do. >> he was. >> trying to shut you down, brother. >> but the point is these are questions that have got to be raised. he's got so many people listening to the kind of pied piper approach that this is going to work. 180 million people are going to give up their private insurance and there's going to be a smooth transition and you'll all have everything you want. when is the last time the national government did everything of that scale that went smoothly? >> i brought this up earlier, everybody has medicare in this room. you pay for it from the time you

have your first job, and when you're 65, you obviously have to pay more to cover your whole life. nobody wanted to say that tonight. >> it takes the discussion away from transparency in hospitals, how do we get the pharmaceutical companies to renegotiate their rulemaking so we don't pay ten times more for insulin here than they do in canada and all that stuff. >> what about hiring everybody? you brought that up. you doubt that's very workable. everybody gets a job. >> how do you possibly do that? i'm a geologist. i understand a sinkhole when i see one. if you offer a government job to every single american who wants one, you're going to be surprised that, a, you're not going to get the top talent, right, because there's going to be this rush and you'll end up bankrupting the bank. >> we're running about a trillion-dollar debt now, deficit, rather. the deficit is 20-some billion now. trillion, rather.

what do you think that all means? do you ever worry about the total cost of what we owe? >> every day. i was a mayor for eight years, a governor for eight years. i had to balance the budget through three recessions, right? no fun, right, it just is what it is. you have to do it. the federal government just prints money. >> can you back bernie and his promi promise? >> brian, everybody says this guy is a little bit wacky, he's spending his money, they don't know where he's getting it from. back to you, brian. >> i feel like you gentlemen should be free to continue your conversation away from the gaze of our cameras. stooe steve kornacki, because we've been talking about the liberal wing of our stage tonight has been looking at the bases of warren versus the base of sanders. steve? >> we always think about those two candidates as being in each other's way. bernie sanders has fallen down a little bit in the polls lately,

elizabeth warren has been moovig up. there is a conventional wisdom she must be taking from bernie sanders. if they're so similar, if they're in each other's way, why weren't they going after each other tonight? there is an answer for that and it's the biggest surprise we see in the polling tonight, because as similar as warren and sanders may be with their messages, their supporters and coalitions are very different. let me give ah you an example of what i mean. these are people making less than $50,000 a year. you see biden in first place, sanders in second place, warren at third with 11%. now look at elizabeth warren's support. she doubles. she goes from 11% to 17%.

sanders goes to 22%. elizabeth warren has been doing better among college-educated voters, particularly college-educated white voters and especially white voters with an advanced degree. sanders on the other end better with younger voters than warren is doing. as we see, better with lower income, blue collar voters. also he's gotten more traction so far with non-white voters. one of the reasons, i think, you did not see any friction on stage between these two candidates, there is a recognition on the part of each that they are appealing to different coalitions with a very similar message. at some point one of them, they probably both think themselves will emerge and they hope to be able to appeal very naturally to the other side at that point without having alienated their opponent. >> steve kornacki at the big board board, thanks. those who have watched our coverage before know we have friends coming and going and it's a moving cocktail party of a conversation.

>> where are the cocktails? >> very good question from the missourian. our thanks to joy reid, lawrence o'donnell. now joining our conversation without cocktails -- terrible rumor to get started -- corrine jeanne-pier jeanne-pierre, chair for move on and both the obama campaign and the obama white house. and you know host of "all in" on we weeknights on this very network. we haven't heard from you two. this is your chance to weigh in on what you witnessed tonight. >> it was listening to the hickenlooper interview with chris matthews there. we had a conversation on medicare for all. there were differences. i think it's an important conversation to have, and i'm going to lean in to what lawrence o'donnell said previously right before i left, which was i don't understand why no one really truly prosecuted the case against donald trump. medicare for all was a perfect

opportunity, and what i mean by that is no one brought up that the trump administration currently, right now, is in the courts trying to take away health care from 30 million people. and i don't understand why there wasn't more of that, more contrast. instead of -- if you think about it, most of those folks, those ten people on stage, there are differences but not by far. not a whole lot of differences. so we know the number one thing that voters want to see is they want to see trump out. so why not lean into that? and that's the thing that i think i missed from watching tonight and just taking a 30,000-foot view, this is not going to shake up the race at all, what we saw tonight. nothing is really going to change. you know, the ticket from detroit to houston debate, they're not going to be much, right? >> will we be talking about tonight tomorrow night? >> i don't think so. i think we're going to move to the big biden versus harris or booker or whatever is going to happen tomorrow night, and this

will not be memorable, unfortunately. >> chris hayes. >> part of what i think made tonight weird is that you had delaney and hickenlooper and bullock standing as proxies who were polling at 1 or 2% for the guy biden and because couldn't have the argument with joe biden about all this stuff where there's similar sort of contours in their thinking you instead had john delaney but that's sort of unsatisfying because he's not the person who's making the best version of the case. i do think that there's two things i think that stuck out to me. one is that in a democratic primary i think there's two ways you can make cases for, say, why medicare for all's a bad idea. one of them is on the merits. and one of them is a kind of meta case about how the voters will reject you. and i think the latter case just isn't going to sell very well. right? people are going to listen to what they want. right? what they want -- what kind of vision for the country they want. and if you think medicare for all's a bad idea which bullock for instance and hickenlooper and delaney and probably joe biden all think then you've got to make that case on the merits

to the voters who i think are probably persuadable on that. right? the case that there are some other people who don't like what you like i think has just limited traction in a democratic primary. >> to be fair, though, i think the case they were arguing tonight is you don't want to market test the idea of plucking 160 million cases of private insurance and saying we've got a great solution, you'll love it, it's from washington. i think that's what more people were arguing. >> right no, they were. the cases that all the people in joplin, missouri and youngstown who are over 65 are already on government health care. and i thought that bernie's response to hickenlooper is an interesting one because it makes you think of what the government is capable of. lbj signs medicare and they phase it in overt course of about three years. that was an enormous undertaking. it was a truly enormous undertaking and if you go back and go through the historical record of what had to be put in place, how cms had to get stood up, that was i hard thing to do. so there's a question about the

trust, we don't trust the government can do it, but there's also the fact there's a certain degree that if democrats want to do big things, and i think a lot of them want, to particularly as the climate crisis bears down on us, you have to find some way to engineer not only the trust but the capacity to do things and the only proof of the pudding is in the eating. >> so we're back to my question for senator mccaskill, and that is how are you going to go to youngstown and say your union plan, i know you're happy with it but i'm going to replace it. >> i think you're going to -- >> how do you make that? >> you convince people there will be something better at the end of the day. >> the reason -- people like medicare. the republicans have tried to privatize and voucherize medicare time and time again. they had unified control of government and they couldn't do it. why couldn't they do it? people like medicare. medicare's one of the most popular things the government does. >> but i've got to be honest with you, and part of this is me having flashbacks to town hall after town hall. a lot of my colleagues were at

their desks in washington when obamacare was passed. i weblt out and did town halls all over the state of month. and then even though he would get everybody to raise their hands if they're on medicare and if they like medicare, try to point out that was a single payer government simm, it didn't matter because the government was telling them what they could and couldn't do in one of the most personal things of their lives. and the notion that we could pull this switch is go from a primarily private health insurance through work and -- and here's the thing. i think what kamala's trying to do with her plan, she came out yesterday is very smart. >> split the needle. >> it is all choice. if you want to buy in to the government plan and if the government plan turns out to be so good then the market will decide, the government plan will rule. but having that choice and being able to campaign on that choice, rather than the government's going to decide what health care you get. >> let me just to respond to,

that i agree. i think choice is probably more politically popular and the medicare for america model -- >> and nor doable. >> there's two things to keep in mind. a lot of people have bad health insurance and don't like the status quo. there's status quo bias but let's not overlook the fact there are tens of millions of americans who don't like their insurance. who lose their insurance every year. if you lose your job, you lose your insurance. there's a tremendous amount of churn in the labor market. my employer, this place, has changed over who our insurer was i think at least once, maybe twice in the time i've been here. >> so i've noticed. >> yes, exactly. >> so there's a certain amount of churn. the other thing i'll say about this, and i think this is where the biden versus sort of warren-sanders debate is most intense and eventually we'll get to a debate with them all on the same stage. is this question of status quo bias and what we're trying -- how comfortable people feel. because it's such a fascinating

experiment. in 2012 it was 20 points underwater. congress members walked the plank to the end of their house career to pass it. it's 12 points up now. nothing's changed about it except the fact it got implemented, people got accommodated to it, and now people like it. and they had unified government and they con repeal the aca. >> that's why when this comes up tomorrow night biden actually his a unique argument to make. >> perspective, yeah. >> because he can remain loyal to the affordable care act because he was there. he was there with "barack and i." we're going to hear a lot of that i think tomorrow night. but that gives him kind of a way around the issue. it's only natural that he would support the -- he wouldn't want to do anything that would take await affordable care act. he'd just want to make it better and public option maybe or expand it somehow. >> rent old punchline, we're from washington and we're here

to help you? it's a punchline for -- >> the reagan speech. >> it was. and there are a lot of people in the country who when they hear that they start -- they bring out their shotguns basically and pitchforks and they don't want -- >> you've obviously been to missouri. >> i have from south carolina. that's a reality. but you can convince people, you can inspire people but you have to be convincing inside and pra inspirational. >> still inspired that i bought a car in missouri. great town. more of our great coverage continues right after this. more of our great coverage contueins right after this (ding) hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! (laughing) what?? what?! what?! [crash] what?! haha, it happens. and if you've got cut-rate car insurance,

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against donald trump and defeat him in this next election but we must also ensure that we don't just tolerate or respect our differences but we embrace them. that's what we've learned in el paso, texas, my home town, one of the safest cities in the united states of america not desxiet but because it's a city of immigrants and asylum seekers and refugees. we will show our diversity is our strength -- >> congressman -- >> the man from texas on that stage tonight is now live with chris matthews. chris. >> thank you, brian. beto o'rourke you're leading in the polls in texas. relevance of that. >> 38 electoral college votes. with texas we defeat donald trump but we also chait electoral landscape in the united states forever after. this is how we begin to build the majorities we need to pass this real ambitious legislation on health care or climate or immigration. so texas and the way we put texas in play by going

everywhere, writing nobody off, taking no one for granted, that's the way to defeat donald trump. >> super tuesday, march 3rd, texas, you win? >> absolutely. and we win far more importantly in november of 2020. that's when it really counts. and as you know, texas has not been in play meaningfully since 1976. so this is huge. >> jimmy carter. the first time. we tried to win it the second time, couldn't do it. let's talk about some hot issues tonight. you're against decriminalizing people coming into the country illegally. >> i will not criminally prosecute and will change the law to reflect this. anyone seeking refuge or asylum or shelter in this country. but if we rewrite this nation's immigration laws, give you a safe orderly path to work i job here or join your family, if we help those countries in central america that are having such a hard time, then i expect to you respect our laws, and we will reserve the right to criminally prosecute those who do not follow our laws or who try to

defraud the government of the united states. >> let's talk about health care. your plan, this is what i find a little bit incredible. you were talking today, everybody was talking about medicare for all or let's call it government-run health care. right now if you work, everybody works, everybody pays medicare in this room, everybody pays a percentage of the pay. until they're 65. and they get something they survive. medicare for life means your whole life according to bernie, glasses, dentistry, everything free paid for by the government. and he said i'm not going to talk about your taxes go up because that's a republican talking point. don't your taxes have to go up if you get benefits for life and right now you only goat if you retire? >> i think he's acknowledged as much but -- >> he has? he said it was a republican talking point to ask the question. >> yeah. >> he went after jake tapper to say how much would this cost in your taxes. he attacked jake tapper for asking the question. and so did warren. we'll get to warren late here. >> i think what you also heard

on the stage was a false choice. you had some saying that you will lose employer-sponsored insurance. tens of millions of americans have that. many like it. others were saying, well, we only need to make marginal changes to the affordable care act which would leave out millions of our fellow americans from being able to see a doctor. our path, medicare for mech, says that if you're not insured we'll enroll new medicare. if you can't afford the insurance you have your co-pays or premiums we can enroll you in medicare but if you like the employer sponsored insurance you have, if you're a member of a union who fought for that, you're able to keep it und iter our plan. >> again, not to give a republican talking point but how much will it cost and who's paying? >> you know, when this was scored, from a bill that was introduced by members of congress it was around $5 trillion over ten years. our version may be more expensive because we also include long-term care for the first time. so the very wealthiest in this country, corporations who had their tax rates radically

reduced, will be paying their fair share. we will tax capital gains at the same rate that we are taxing ordinary income in this country. we have the wealth and resources to pay for this. >> beto o'rourke. >> chris matthews, thanks. and all along for this evening's debate indeed the plot line seemed to be the moderates on stage versus the very well-known liberals on stage. >> i don't understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the united states just to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. [ cheers and applause ] >> i think democrats win when we run on real solutions, not impossible promises. when we run on things that are workable, not fairy tale economics. >> i get a little bit tired of democrats afraid of big ideas. republicans are not afraid of big ideas. they could give a trillion

dollars in tax breaks to billionaires and profitable corporations. they could bail out the crooks on wall street. so please don't tell me that we cannot take on the fossil fuel industry and nothing happens unless we do that. >> medicare for all is comprehensive. it covers all health care needs for senior citizens it will finally include dental care, hearing aids, and eyeglasses. >> but you don't know, that bernie. >> second of all -- i do know. i wrote the damn bill. >> on the medicare for all the hospitals will save substantial sums of money because they're not going to be spending a fortune doing billing and the other bureaucratic things they have to do today. >> it doesn't add up. >> maybe you did that and made money off of health care but our job is a non-profit health care system. >> listen, his math is wrong. that's all i'm saying. >> that's kind of how the evening went. our friends remain here with us in the studio.

and let's talk about the liberal versus moderate split starting with you, chris hayes, and let's back up to what we saw earlier. beto o'rourke. boarding school, ivy league, where they don't drop their g snz he drops his gs when he can remember to drop his gs. >> all politics is performance. >> fair. what happened to him? mayor pete? >> mayor pete i think is part of it. the other thing is there was a very clear case for why beto o'rourke should be the senator from texas and there was not a clear case and has not been a clear case made by beto o'rourke why he should be president of the united states. it's that simple. you're -- oh, you're a multiterm congressman from el paso. and the border's extremely important and ted cruz is the incumbent senator and when he talks about doing the legwork he did do the legwork down there. it's the reason he performed as well as he did. >> and the result of that election? >> lost by four points.

and i think it's very hard to say why should you be the president of the united states? in some ways the hardest question to answer in all of this is the simplest one. of the 100 million people qualified constitutionally why should you be the person sitting in the white house? >> asked roger mudd and ted kennedy. >> you've got to have an answer to that. that can be a hard one. i think there's a lot of people on that stage who had a hard time finding that. there are some people like steve bullock who has a tweet length version, i'm a two-term governor from a red state, that's why i should be able to do it. but he's got to be able to put more meat on the bones than he was able to do tonight. as for the liberals versus moderates like i said before this is all sort of biden -- a proxy war with biden. i do think it's interesting. i think we tend to think of these things in more ideological categories than voters do and one of the things that's been interesting throughout is there's a lot of voters who are hoozing between biden and bernie, particularly in the beginning, who represent in this sort of framing different parts of that.

a lot of what comes down to voters i think is a sense of who are you fighting on behalf of and who do you trust? and that is something that can be orthoganal to what your party does. it will be interesting to see how the personal and party line up as we go forward. >> leaning in on beto a little bit there, was a lot of hype around him. he raised $80 million. he was running against ted cruz, one of the most disliked u.s. senators in the senate. it was an easier match-up. and you're right. he did not have a reason as to why i was running for president, which which was the big, big flaw coming into this. saying i'm born to do it is not a reason to do it. and also this is 24 people. a very talented diverse group of people. >> exhausting. >> bup it's exhausting and it's very difficult to do. with tonight and the moderates versus the progressive, everybody thought it was going

to be bernie versus warren and it turned out to be warren and bernie versus everybody else. and i think a lot of that was just how the debate was set up. it was set up to be a disagreement and it was set up for all the moderates to really go after the two front-runners. you just saw that the way it played out. if i am biden and his people, i will take notice to that for tomorrow because that's what i -- is this going to be how it's going to play out for biden tomorrow? as well? >> they're going to set that up as much as possible clearly. >> exactly. if i was biden's folks i would be paying attention to that. >> and senator, to chris hayes's point we love a category. we do research based on categories, we place people in categories. often we know this. voters choose who they want to have a beer with. >> yeah, and it drives people crazy when we talk about likability because it diminishes the seriousness of it. it is, you know, falling into

the trap . but i think it's hard to not argue that there are intangibles. don't call it likability. there are intangibles -- >> political talent. >> that really -- who touches people? who connects with people? the trust factor. but i do think one thing was very clear tonight is that the people that watched the last debates they know the people that got any traction -- you could argue none of them got any traction from the last debate, but anyone who did get traction was somebody who attacked somebody. so it wasn't just the moderators that were trying to set up okay, go after them, let's have this grudge match. it really was i think especially for the people at 1% or 2%, if they weren't swinging fences -- >> they had to. >> they really aren't going to make it's next day. >> eugene robinson, likeable man. >> very likeable man. >> it was all about policy.

and the attacks were based on policy. and that's part of what voters take into account. but it's just a part of it. i think when voters think about policy they don't think about the entire 48-page platform chunk on medicare for all and how it gets paid for over x number of years. the framing of the issue, the question, are you taking something away from me? are you nangz better? will there be more money in my pocket? will i have more coverage? will i pay less for prescription drugs? those sorts of things. and those specifics can also become very important factors in an election. but they're simple and they're understandable. and they're not the deep

intricacies of boring policy documents, frankly. >> but i will say that to your point about the substantive nature of it i think both debates -- these are fights the party is having. this is a big fight. and it's not about stupid stuff. it's about -- this is how a party talks to itself. it's how the democratic process, the primary process works. these are different visions. they have different visions of what should happen in the health care system. they are also i think genuinely felt. i think the people who are arguing for their positions on the stage last night believe in their positions. they're not pretending to believe. they represent different ways of thinking about health care or trade or immigration. and so to me this is what a primary should do. it's the way a political coalition wrestles out these positions. >> i've said this before and i'll say it again. this is a political party standing in front of a country asking them to love them. and along those lines tonight

the vagary of the random drawing gave us a stage of nothing but white folks. and look at the week we have had in our public policy and our media discussion and the discussions we've had with friends and family driven by the president, his attacks on baltimore, his attacks on yet another member of congress of color. race did come up on that stage tonight. >> the president is advancing environmental racism, economic racism, criminal justice racism, health care racism. >> i have had it with the racist attacks. >> what trub is doing throump i his racism and xenophobia is demonizing a group of people. >> steve kornacki has more for us on the issue of race. and as i said, steve, it was an

all-caucasian stage tonight owing to just the vagary of the drawing. >> tomorrow night obviously we have the two black candidates as well as the person right now who is leading the black vote on the polls, joe biden. but on that subject of trump and race and how it int sects with the democratic race here's a new poll. asked the question from quinnipiac, is donald trump racist? this is all voters. across the country a majority, 51% say yes, the president's a racist. 45% say no. here's something interesting as it relates to the democratic primary. break this down among white voters because there's been talk here about is there a group of white voters that maybe will rally around the president? you heard that. but the flip side of it is this. this group of voters right here, white voters with a college degree, this is a group that over time we've been talking about has been trending more democratic. this is a group of voters you saw in those suburban districts in 2018, really rallied around democrats, helped bring them to the 40-seat gain. you see on this question is the

president a racist by a more than ten-point margin those voters are sayinger, he is right now. these are voters increasingly who are becoming a democratic constituency. and by the way, this group of voters, non-college white voters a lot of time blue collar white voters, we talk about this as the president's space, as a group of voters who maybe these folks will like what trump is saying. keep in mind this is 39-57. do you know what the election groups were in 2016? donald trump won this group of voters by upwards of 40 points over hillary clinton. hillary clinton could not crack 30% with non-college white voters. now close to 40% of non-college white voters in this poll are saying they think trump's a racist. >> steve kornacki, thank you. some fascinating dish mean -- >> well, what i think that shows are two things. one is it is true that the sort of racialized appeals from the day he came down the escalator had a certain potency. it's also true if you look at the polling that say industrial

midwest voters, white non-college, have more conservative views on immigration. that's what the polling shows. but this idea that this is some brilliant mastermind, to go around calling members of congress -- that they're rat-infested places and they height whites and cops and send her back, it's not. it just does not show up in the data. and ron brownstein had a great piece the other day. if you look at that data and you start to go into the gender cross-tabs, the place the hemorrhage is happening is women. it's happening to a very significant degree and across various demographic groups. within white voters you're seeing white women turn away from the president, who was a huge part of the 2018 story. >> if you go back to a year ago this time when he was doing the zero tolerance policy and separating babies and children from their parents, putting them in cages, it was white women when you looked at his own polling he was losing. they were sprinting away from him and independents had been doing that for months prior and that's what we saw going into

2018. suburban white women leaving donald trump, leaving the republican party. and it was a referendum on donald trump. and remember, he doubled down on immigration, doubled down on the caravan and it didn't work, it failed for him. ? eugene, i will say calling congressman cummings a racist was a new one for me. >> yes, it was a new one for me. and i think we'll hear more of that sort of thing from trump. he is smart enough i think in his -- cunning enough to try to neutralize the word. >> he said in a c-span interview tonight everyone's being called a racist. >> exactly. i think you'll hear that more and more from him and his defenders. >> zoesenator? >> well, i think he is making a big mistake. not just chasing away suburban white voters but african-american turnout is a very big deal.

and donald trump suffers from what many candidates suffer from i think, and that is they assume that the african-american voting population isn't paying close attention. they are paying very close attention. >> they are. >> they know who every candidate is. everywhere i go in st. louis i run into my friends and people i don't know. they want to talk to me about every candidate and they are very informed and they are paying close attention and they hear. and cummings is beloved. for all the right reasons. >> correctly, yes. >> correctly beloved. not only by african-americans in his district but african-americans all over the country. and even republicans in congress. he's going to drive african-american vote in a way that our nominee might not be able to. >> i think that's 100% right. >> anyone who's ever watched an oversight committee hearing. another break for us. our coverage will continue right after this. our coverage will continue right after this beep goes off ]

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let's be clear about this. we are the democrats. we are not about trying to take away health care from anyone. that's what the republicans are trying to do. and we should stop using republican talking points in order to talk with each other about how to best provide that health care. >> that was elizabeth warren from earlier tonight. with us from detroit is our own jonathan allen, nbc news national political reporter. happens to be a veteran political journalist and an author. hey, jonathan, tell us what you were saying earlier tonight on this network about cooperation and mutual understanding between the political camps, the aides to warren and sanders. >> i heard from a lot of allies

to both of them that they weren't going to attack each other, that basically you were going to see them making the argument for big bold progressive change together. that these were going to be candidates that understood that this was a moment in which they could make that argument for the progressive wing of the democratic party, that they were going to be facing candidates who were to the right of them, the centrist side of the democratic party. and that you were not going to see these two attack each other under any circumstances. and of course that's exactly what we saw tonight. >> that is indeed what i heard you report. that is indeed what happened tonight. what else have you picked up in your travels in the spin room? the surroundings of which you are familiar with. >> it's been a very long night, brian. earlier today i was clean shaven, skinny and handsome. it's not actually true. but i have been trailing around the spin room a little bit and

talking to some democrats. i think what i heard most tonight to summarize it a little bit is basically a draw between the left and the center and to put a little analysis on it because i'm about to publish something along those lines on nbcnews.com. i think the draw is basically a loss for the progressive side because they had their big guns out tonight in warren and sanders. those two didn't fight each other. they made the argument for their case and they were met with fierce resistance from the center. and if it was a draw as so many people i talked to said, what the left wasn't able to produce, what sanders and warren weren't able to produce was a clear argument that their plans, their ideas, their ways of pitching those ideas were enough to defeat the centrists and the democratic party much less donald trump later on. it doesn't mean they won't be able to win that armth but in the first big ideological showdown of the democratic primary a draw was probably not what the sanders and warren wing

was looking for. >> all right. jonathan allen, thank you so much. i hope we can have this same time with you tomorrow night. chris matthews has secured senator elizabeth warren. chris? >> secured is a good word. senator warren, thank you. i think you did really great tonight. i thought an interesting couple of things. first of all, i thought you that and bernie sanders reminded me of butch cassidy and the sundance kid. >> oh. >> the xwlifian a ibolivian arm you. did it feel that way? >> not at all. >> no? >> no. it felt like we were right and we had a chance to fight for what we believe in. i was really serious when i told the story about what it means for people who have health insurance. someone like eddie barkan who has this cute little girl. i keep the picture in my office. he's dying of a.l.s. and he's got -- >> that's lou gehrig's disease. >> lou gehrig's. he has really good insurance. he has $9,000 on average the

insurance company says we're not doing, that we're not paying what your doctors think is right. his wife spends hours and hours on the phone fighting please would you let him get this, would you let him cover that. and he talks about how many thousands of people join him online every month to beg. families, strangers, for money to be able to pay for the medical bills that their doctors say their need and their insurance companies say no. we've got to remember, basic model of an insurance company, take in as much money as you can in premiums and pay out as little in health care coverage. >> you don't have the money now to pay for necessary treatment, they will have it under your plan. where does it come from? >> so costs are going to go up for the bazillion-areas. it's going to go up for the corporations. out of pocket costs for middle-class families are going to go down. >> let's go to mechanism. you'll get to this later in the campaign afghan now. medicare we've all been paying since i was 15. up till 65. with the idea you'll survive

maybe 15 more years. if you have medicare for life or government health insurance, you have to have more benefits and bernie's talking about the eyeglasses, hearing aids, everything. there will have to be more money. you guys dodged that tonight. >> no, no. it's not a dodge. >> how much of your taxes are going to go up and you said -- >> how much are your costs going to go down. >> different question. how much are your costs -- >> no. it's how much families end up spending. >> i know that,ment. >> the republicans did a study. and they hoped to show that medicare for all was going to bust the budget. and you remember what it ended up showing? that medicare for all is cheaper than our current system. that's the republicans. >> i know the argument that you put it all together, you reduce the costs for health care premiums and you get more benefits and therefore you come out ahead. but will you pay more in taxes? why don't you want to answer

that question? as jake said tonight, that's a republican talking into th inin. it's not a republican talking point. >> it's a question of where people are going to come out economically. >> that's not my question. my question is how much will taxes go up? >> i spent most of my life studying families that went broke. and a huge chunk of it went broke because of high medical bills and many of them had health insurance. so the question is not do you have health insurance or not health insurance. the question is how much are you going to have to dig in your pocket to pay? >> i know that's the answer that you'd like to give. but will your taxes go up? >> the question is your total costs. >> but there's no answer will your taxes go up. >> there is an answer to the question about the costs. because it's costs that matter to people. >> you said something interesting. you said we shouldn't have a candidate we don't like. >> no, i said that we don't believe in. >> is that biden? >> i'm not here to knock anyone.

>> it 150e78d like yseemed like alluding to it. >> i'm not here to knock any democrat. i'm just saying that's not what we should do. >> when you said we shouldn't have a candidate we don't like. >> i didn't say don't like. i said someone we don't believe in. because here's the thing. as democrats the way we're going to win is we're going to win by deciding what is right and then getting out there and -- that's what 2020's going to be all about. >> let me ask you about tonight because there were three big issues i think you guys covered tonight. i think the proportion of the conversations where you had of course health care, which is the big democratic issue of '18, probably the big one next year. you talked about the border. right? you talked about decriminalize people coming into the country. you talked about the question of paying for a green new deal. tell me how the debates turned out. the progressives won in the moderates? >> i think people had a vision.

did we explain that vision to the american people and how it touched their lives? i think those are the folks who won. i don't think people win by talking about what they can't do. they win by saying here's what we will do, here's what i will fight for. that's what leadership is all about. >> before it started tonight the experts who are smarter than me said it's not going to be a battle between you and bernie. i thought that's wrong. you've been eating his lunch, taking his votes away for weeks, for months. it's going to be a battle with you two guys against the moderates. it seems like you were ready for. all the people getting 1% and 2% in the vogt, in the polling, all came at you. delaney came at you, hickenlooper, ryan came at you, they all came after you. bullock came after you. did you know they were coming? >> no. >> you didn't know they were coming? because you guys looked ready. >> it didn't matter. i was talking about the things i believe in. and not the things i started believing in a month ago or a year ago.

>> you are elizabeth warren. i know who elizabeth warren is. tactically, it really looked like the gunfight at the okay corral or something. you two guys taking on all this bolivian army. i'm mixing my metaphors. did you know it was coming? >> no. i really didn't. and at the end of the day i was just delighted to have a chance to talk about the issues. >> many people think you won tonight. thank you, brian. >> we can only hope the bolivian army is the new hashtag overtaking twitter tonight as we go to our final break. with thanks to everyone. let's do this exactly lly the s time tomorrow night after watching exactly ten more people on stage at the fox theater in detroit. to chris matthews, to senator elizabeth warren. but to our family here, to eugene robinson, to claire mccaskill, to karine jean-pierre, to chris hayes, along with steve kornacki, all our guests who have come it and gone all night long .

joy reid picks up our live coverage of tonight's democratic debate tonight. hey, joy. >> thank you, brian. i switched sets. i came over here to keep going. because why stop? we should just keep going. >> i'm fine. >> don't go to sleep. thank you, brian. appreciate it. good evening. i'm joy reid. tonight it was a fight for the ideological future of the democratic party in detroit. progressives elizabeth warren and bernie sandsers became the target of more moderate democrats running for the white house. as their rivals argued that some of the front-runners' ideas would be too costly and too risky for the middle class. >> folks, we have a choice. we can go down the road that senator sanders and senator warren want to take us. which is with bad policies like medicare for all, free everything, and impossible promises that will turn off independent voters and get trump re-elected. >> i'm not going to support any plan that rips away quality health care from individuals.

this is an example of wish list economics. it used to be just republicans who wanted to repeal and replace. now many democrats do as well. >> senator sanders does not know all of the union contracts in the united states. i'm trying to explain that these union members are losing their jobs, their wages have been stagnant. the world is crumbling around them. the only thing they have is possibly really good health care. and the democratic message is going to be we're going to go in and the only thing you have left, we're going to take it and we're going to do better. >> it didn't take long for senators warren and sanders to fight back and defend their side of the ideological divide. >> medicare for all is comprehensive. it covers all health care needs for senior citizens. it will finally include dental care, hearing aids, and eyeglasses. >> but you don't -- >> second of all -- >> you don't know that. >> i do know. i wrote the damn bill. >> so i think democrats win when we run on real solutions, not

impossible promises. when we run on things that are workable, not impossible solutions. infrastructure. lowering drug prices -- >> senator warren. >> i don't understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the united states just to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. [ cheers and applause ] our biggest problem in washington is corruption. it is giant corporations that have taken our government and that are holding it by the throat. and we need to have the courage to fight back against that. and until we're ready to do that it's just more of the same. well, i'm ready to get in this fight. i'm ready to win this. >> thank you, senator. >> that line from warren might have just been the line of the night. but these testy exchanges shouldn't overlook the fact that democrats of all political beliefs and backgrounds united -- were united around one

common enemy tonight, donald trump. by nbc news count he was attacked more than anyone else on the debate stage in detroit tonight. >> donald trump disgraces the office of president every single day. and anyone on this stage tonight or tomorrow night would be a far better president. >> we have got to take on trump's racism, his sexism, xenophobia, and come together in an unprecedented grassroots movement. >> if you are watching this at home and you are a republican member of congress, consider the fact that when the sun sets on your career and they are writing your story, of all the good and bad things you did in your life, the thing you will be remembered for is whether in this moment with this president you found the courage to stand up to him or you continued to put party over country. >> leading off our discussion, former deputy assistant secretary of state and senior adviser and spokesman for hillary clinton.

he played trump during clinton's 2016 mock debate prep sessions. we will not make him do his impression. walid shaheed, spokesperson for justice democrats. he's a former delegate for bernie sanders, 2016 presidential campaign and a former senior aide to alexandria ocasio-cortez. he's an lined with any democratic presidential campaign in the primary so par. jonathan altar. karine john prooer, chief public affairs officer for moveon.org and an msnbc contributor. and joining us from detroit is maria urbana, national political director of indivisible. i'll go to you first, maria. give us kur impregsz on the ground. did anyone particularly stand out to you? who jumped off that stoij for you tonight? >> no doubt senator warren certainly stood out tonight. she wasn't the only one. certainly the audience was excite about her. she drew some of the largest applause of the evening. but definitely senator sanders, mayor buttigieg had some key moments as well.

folks were fired up and they were definitely listen closely. >> philippe, i read your prees in politico. it's right here. it's some good advice for the democrat who's ultimately going to have to debate donald trump. but some of the things you talked about, the qualities you that that a person has to have to be on the debate stage with him, did you see anyone on the stage who you said i can picture that person on the debate stage with trump? >> a few of them. i can easily see senator sanders. the two of them seem they're so set in their ways it would be a great slugfest. but certainly senator warren. mayor buttigieg would just shred him to bits. there were a lot of good debaters tonight. the problem is and the point of the piece is that people are saying the most important thing is to beat trump. i think that's the goal every four years to beat the other guy. but we might be looking at attributes that aren't the attributes for later on. joe biden has been kri9 sized

since the last debate about how he doesn't take responsibility for his record, he hasn't apoll jooirzed. you know what, that might not be what people are looking for now. that might be pretty effective a year and a half from now, 12 months from now when someone is debating the least apologetic, least contrite person in america. it's really a matter of understanding what you say, what you say you want someone to beat trump. we don't even know ow trump won let alone how to beat him. >> part of the debate tonight was you had most of the moderates in the race all on the stage together. they were all pretty much shooting toward the middle. they were all pretty much shooting toward sanders and warren. it didn't seem like any of them had a knockout punch to be blunt against any of them. i thought delaney really kept going hard. he never did use the socialism word. i was surprised. he waited to call bernie sanders a socialist until he was talking to chris matthews.

that seemed like a missed opportunity if that was his goal. what did you make of this fight with tim ryan, steve bullock, john dlan yo, john hickenlooper, i had to read their names off this paper. that's just an editorial comment. who did you make of all these people all hitting sanders? do you think any of them did better? >> the forum of the debate and the tactical debate, moderators didn't land it in terms of how they speak, but in terms of just the content of what they're saying there isn't a real governing vision for the democratic party, for america that they're offering, that's akin to how bold elizabeth warren and clear elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are being about what they want government to achieve. >> but what's the difference between them? here's the thing. i feel like the democratic party is these three different parties. it's like the hope party, the party that wants some big vision. there's a liberal party. there's a very progressive party. the warren-sanders kind of wing of the party. and then there's this moderate party, moderate white voters. and they're all sort of fighting to see who's going to be the

representative of the party in 2020. >> we've narrowed it down to three. >> for democrats it's 484. if i'm a voter who can't choose between them, tonight didn't make it clear other than elizabeth war zen a really good explainer of things and bernie sanders may be more passionate, may be louder, people told him to stop yelling. how do you pick between the two of them? >> i think what a lot of the media was expecting tonight was a lot of the media going at it. the real fight they're in right now is with the centrist wing of the democratic party. >> they can't both be president. >> their coalitions are different. in the previous segment they were talking about how bernie does really well with voters who make under $50,000 a year. elizabeth warren does much better with college-educated women. they're not really in the same coalitions. when you put the coalition together, it's probably 50% of the prime electorate -- >> the fight is whether or not -- and i think that was the

point i got out of tonight. i counted 38 minutes. 39 minutes on health care. 39 minutes. where -- i didn't get a lot of clarity on medicare for all after 39 minutes. it was you fight you, you fight you. it was mostly arguing. but that is going to be the main debate among democrats for both of you guys. democrats have to decide whether they want to be a party that's going to make incremental change and whether that's going to fix the things that are there or whether they're going to be the party of big vision. did either side of that debate for both of you, starting with you, did either side win that tonight? >> well, you look strong er if you're taking a very firm position tonight. warren looked strong tonight and strength pays in presidential politics. but there is a much larger part of the democratic party than the twitter folks understand who are moderates. they just don't want to lead with their chins from their perspective.

they don't want to be out there with positions like taking insurance -- taking private insurance away. they think they're going to be unpopular and contribute to a defeat. so right now herr candidate is joe biden. he kind of won tonight because none of the moderates in this debate emerged as major challengers. the question for the moderates is what happens if biden's not up to it. which of these other people can step in? if biden's not up to it hthen te progressive's are going to have a field day. right now nobody else has emerged to compete for that moderate vote. and by the time somebody does emerge if biden stumbles it might be too late and warren i think in particular might be on her way to the nomination. >> car yookarine, what's import the candidate you worked for and i worked for at a much lower

level, president obama, he had this magic of being able to kind of be both. he was a hope candidate. that's what i think the democrats need, is somebody that's got a big vision. but he also compared to john edwards was kind of moderatish. he kind of straddled the middle like buttigieg did. >> let's not forget in 2007-2008 when obama was running he was running on universal health care. >> he was. >> and he did that and was able to form a coalition, right? where african-americans came out in historical numbers, latinos came out in historical numbers. he got millennials out. and he was able to take that and create a movement, create hope and change i, change we believe in, and it worked. coming to your question, that's what we need. we need big change. and that's what he was offering. even though he likes to kind of straddle -- >> he also had a public option.

>> he was not for this universal -- >> my point is at that time universal health care was looked at as medicare for all is looked at -- >> he was against the individual mandate. the debate at that time, all the democrats didn't want to go for the whole thing -- >> but he got beat up -- >> and he was getting beat up for it. for sure. >> buttigieg said tonight -- >> the point i'm making is that he was for something big. at the time it was seen as something big. he was able to connect, thread that needle and be for hope and change, be for something big, and bring a coalition. that's what we need today. that's the point i'm making. can a candidate come up and be that nominee and do what obama was able to do? >> and maria i'm going to bring you back into this too. that's the big question. is do democrats want to go big, which elizabeth warren and

bernie sanders are saying let's go really big and doing? dramatic for the american people. and everybody around them even buttigieg to a certain extent was saying well, we don't want to scare people away, so let's go big-ish, not too big. >> we've done two flash polls right after the debates to get a sense of where the indivisible network is. our grassroots community. one thing that continues to show up is senator warren continues to be at the top of that list. obviously it's still a bit early, so that can be pretty dynamic and change. but i think the point i really lean into it early in the year, the first year, we were hearing from some of our movement leaders me were very excited about senator warren, both because she's very clear she believes in it, she can make a case for it, and also because she's able to animate folks and operate the hope and change frame but also clearly explain and bring people along who might not start where she starts. and i think that's really powerful. i think she has the potential to continue to grow the coalition. and even when you look at mayor

buttigieg, perhaps he has a different approach, he does talk a lot about democracy reform versus ideological reforms. but i do think it's important to note that relate three folks who did really well tonight who i would say -- and our membership would say based on our flash poll 3,000 people, senators warren, buttigieg and sanders did really well. they all made the case, they were specific, they defended their values and they didn't buy into this frame of being scared around what they believe in. they really bought into saying we have to be courageous, we have to lean into our issues because no matter what republicans are going to frame them as radical or bad. so we really have to bring people along and do this in a very strong way. otherwise we're not going to win. that's what we have to remind folks of, let's not outpundit each other, let's really lean into what excites us. >> but i like pundits. let me tell you this piece by elizabeth warren and this is where she goes after kind of the moderators too about the way they were framing this question on medicare for all and taxes

but here she is. >> let's be clear about this. we are the democrats. we are not about trying to take away health care from anyone. that's what the republicans are trying to do. [ cheers and applause ] and we should stop using republican talking points in order to talk with each other about how to best provide that health care. >> you've been very diplomatic about, it but this is a competition. they can't all make, it right? not everybody can go to the kingdom. warren and sanders -- and that answer to me shows that not only when you look at people's second choice, she -- her second choice tends to be for people kamala harris. so she shares a lot of the base with kamala harris. she has a bit of a broader base. she says a lot of the same policy ideas as sanders but she's really good about being really clear about it and kind of accessible about it. at the end of the day can she and bernie, even though as you said they don't really share the whole venn diagram together but

isn't she in a sense winning that spot away from him? >> i think she has much lower name recognition than him which signifies she may have a bigger coalition to draw from. i think some of the names coming out from is praises like south carolina and new hampshire don't look great. he's done a whole different style of press this past month whether it's jimmy kimmel or cardi b. or all the stuff. he is changing the strategy a little bit 37 i think there is -- elizabeth warren is making him compete more than he might have thought. >> cardi b. is very powerful. but i'm not sure she can save it. we'll see what happens. waleed shahid and bernie urbina. steve -- our panel is staying with us. coming up all of the democrats candidates need african-american voters to win the nomination. steve kornacki will look at that

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♪ little kids literally woke up this weekend, turned on the tv, and saw their president calling their city the town of baltimore nothing more than a home for rats. and i can tell you as your president that will stop. >> we are just coming off the first night of the second set of democratic presidential debates. for more let's turn to msnbc's steve kornacki over at the big board. go for, it steve. >> in particular when we look at the democratic primary race the power of the black vote. the role of the black vote. and certainly tomorrow night you'll have kamala harris, cory booker, and joe biden taking center stage. and look at, this the most recent poll this week among white voters you see biden out in front first place but it's among african-american voters, whoa, it's among african-american voters where joe biden, that's where he

really has his biggest source of strength right now. an outright majority in this poll this week. 53% running laps around rest of the field there. that has been a story we've been seeing for months. that's been a question of whether that's something that can endure for joe biden. but 53% for biden among black voters. think about this. when we say the cloud of black voters, this is a long-term story in democratic politics. we have a project this week going back and looking at all the exit polls in modern democratic races. you go back to the dawn of exit polls in 1976 in a democratic race for president, less than 10% of all votes cast nationally would come from black voters. in the most recent democratic presidential race, clinton, sanders, 2016, number was 24%. we expect it to be at least that high in 2020. in other words, one out of every four votes that will be cast in democratic primaries across the country in 2020 will come from

african-american voters. as you look at joe biden running in that poll way ahead of everybody else. if you're running that far ahead of everybody else, 25% of the party, that explains a lot of why joe biden is the front-runner right now. >> can i ask you a quick question, steve, because among african-american voters you see that huge number for biden, do you have an age breakdown? are you able to tell whether his support is among black voters over 50? over 30? what's the age range holding him down? >> we have been seeing this in poll after poll. and yes, his support among -- we see this also with white voters as well but it also is dramatic with black voters. the younger you get the more open black voters are to other candidates. you get to 65-plus african-american voters i've seen polls that have joe biden well into the 60s with that group. when you get under 30 it gets more competitive, but he is leading across the board. >> and older black voters vote. steve kornacki, thank you very

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♪ applebee's all you can eat is back. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. hello. i'm joy reid, and welcome to the post-debate coverage of the first night of the democratic debates in detroit, michigan. it was one of the most substantive presidential primary debates in recent memory, and the two democratic candidates with the most ambitious plans, senators bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, dominated the stage. most other candidates, well, it was hard to find standout moments, but a few 2020 hopefuls did manage to make a lasting impression in a debate that was marked by long stretches of substantive policy discussion

that helped to map the candidates along a clear ideological spectrum. the sharpest and most complex disagreements came on health care. >> under medicare for all the hospitals will save substantial sums of money because they're not going to be spending a fortune doing billing and the other bureaucratic things that they have to do today. maybe you did that and made money off of health care but our job is a non-profit health care system. >> we need the public option. that's what barack obama wanted. and it would bring health care costs down for everyone. >> let's be clear about this. we are the democrats. we are not about trying to take away health care from anyone. that's what the republicans are trying to do. and we should stop using republican talking points in order to talk with each other about how to best provide that health care. >> it is time to stop worrying about what the republicans will say.

look, it's true that if we embrace a far left aend je agen they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. if we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they're going to do? they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. let's stand for the right policy. not because i think it's the triangulation between republicans and democrats -- >> the more moderate democrats criticize the the more liberal wing of the party for proposing decriminalization of illegal immigration. >> what's missing is the right person in the white house. i believe that immigrants don't diminish america, they are america. and if you want to do something about border security, you first of all change the rules so people can seek asylum in those countries. >> the problem is that right now the criminalization statute is what gives donald trump the ability to take children away from their parents. it's what gives him the ability to lock up people at our

borders. we need to continue to have border security, and we can do that. but what we can't do is not live our values. >> we've got a crisis on our hands. and it's not just a crisis of immigration. it's a crisis of cruelty and incompetence that has created a humanitarian disaster on our southern border. it is a stain on the united states of america. >> the biggest problem right now that we have with immigration, it's donald trump. he's using immigration to not only rip apart families but rip apart this country. we can actually get to the point where we have safe borders, where we have a path to citizenship, where we have opportunities for dreamers, and you don't have to decriminalize everything. >> and as the saying goes, it's the economy, stupid. and economic issues including trade policies and the changing job market were a central focus for the candidates tonight in detroit. >> as president would you continue president trump's steel

tariffs? yes or no? >> well, i would have to reevaluate. i think some of them are effective. but he's bungled the whole thing, obviously. >> i'm the only one running for president who actually supports the transpacific partnership. president obama was right about that. we should be getting back in that. senator warren just issued a trade plan that would prevent the united states from trading with its allies. we can't go -- we can't isolate ourselves from the world. >> for decades we have had a trade policy that has been written by giant multinational corporations to help giant multinational corporations. they have no loyalty to america. they have no patriotism. if they can save a nickel by moving a job to mexico they'll do it in a heartbeat. if they can continue a polluting plant by moving it to vietnam they'll do it in a heartbeat. i have put out a new comprehensive plan that says we aren't going to do it that way. >> elizabeth is absolutely right.

if anybody here thinks that corporate america gives one damn about the average american worker, you're mistaken. if they can save five cents by going to china, mexico, or vietnam or any place else, that's exactly what they could do. >> joining our discussion, former deputy assistant secretary of state and senior adviser and spokesman for hillary clinton expect and he played trump during clinton's 2016 mock debate sessions. still waiting on that impression. david jolly, former republican congressman from florida. and he's an nbc msnbc political analyst. jonathan alter, columnist for the daily beast and msnbc political analyst. karine jean-pierre, chief public affairs officer for move-on.org and also an nbc contributor. and joining us from detroit is latasha brown, co-founder of black voters matter. la tasha, great to talk to you. i understand i'm told you watched the debate with a room full of black women there in detroit. love to know what they thought. >> it was really interesting. we had almost 200 back voters

and we did an interactive poll while we had them. it was really interesting. there were four people that stuck out that people really responded nep responded greatly to elizabeth warren. they responded well to buttigieg. they responded to bernie sanders got a lot of attention. what was really interesting is marianne williamson towards the end of the night people were standing up and saying oh, we like her. so i think that was really interesting the kind of energy that was in there. when we did the poll, the three things that kept coming up is they wanted to hear about education, they were deeply concerned about health care access and health care and the third thing was really around -- the most energy in the room was around rep raig around reparations and the discussion around reparations. >> let's go back for a moment because you had warren and sanders doing really well. they're kind of in the same lane. did you falk with any of the voters that were there about whether or not -- in their mind what is the difference between those two? >> i think there were two questions that came up, two

concerns. we asked the audience around -- they liked both of them but what did they think? one of the things that came up is one, who has the ability to beat trump. there was some concern around who could actually beat trump. and then the second thing is who could actually build a broad-based coalition. several of the people who responded felt that bernie already had -- that senator sanders has a strong coalition but folks were really, really impressed with elizabeth warren and felt like she had more latitude, that she was actually the one that was building momentum and that's where they thought that a lot of it, will wh we asked them who do you think that won tonight and it was elizabeth warren. >> very quickly, buttigieg has had some challenges gaping strength, or gaining traction with african-american voters but you're saying tonight he made a difference for himself in a good way. >> he did. actually there were a couple of people when we asked feedback they said they felt he was auths

entic. and he did not run away from the race question. his answers around race in america that gave him a boost in the room tonight. >> very interesting. let's come here to the table. david, our lone republican at the table here. i've had republican strategists tell me that in their own minds among republicans that the three people they're the most concerned about when it comes to donald trump's re-election are elizabeth warren, biden, and kamala harris. specifically on elizabeth warren-k we play her wealth tax answer really quickly? this is number 3. let's play it real quick. >> what can america do with two cents? we can provide universal child care for every baby in this country age 0 to 5. we can provide universal -- a pre-k for every 3-year-old and 4-year-old. we can raise the wages of every childcare worker and preschool teacher in this country. we can provide universal tuition-free college. we can expand pell.

we can put $50 billion into our historically black colleges and universities. and we can skans student loan debt for 95% of the people who have it and start to close the wealth gap in america. it tells you how broken this economy is that 2 cents from the wealthy in this country would let us invest in the rest of america. >> does warren populism, which she's very good at explain things, she's very simple, she's very approachable. can that kind of populism endanger donald trump in places like michigan and wisconsin and -- i mean, rather than -- people said she's going to come off as extremist or that's what people used to worry about. she comes across as very direct and very approachable. and i think senator elizabeth warren may very well end up being the nominee and i think she beats donald trump. >> you think she would? >> we'ring ahave i natural conversation around the moderate lane versus the progressive lane. i think what a lot of voters also received tonight and what they saw and listened, i'm not a democrat, was the aspirational

lane versus the managerial lane. and the added benefit to the aspirational lane is you saw elizabeth warren and others begin to defend the party. we are democrats. this is who we are. and it was that added element where your moderates weren't really able to do that because that's not where the heartbeat of the party is right now. marianne williamson had an incredible line when she said at the end, i look around, i wonder why some of you are even democrats. that was the negligent that elizabeth warren was bringing forward. it is remarkable. i've talked with republican friends two years ago, four years ago, elizabeth warren almost was the bogey man in waiting right behind nancy pelosi. republicans wanted to take her on. now she is the likeable, policy wonk that you feel like you could put your trust in. nobody smarter to go up against donald trump than somebody like elizabeth. >> and i've got to ask about clinton and obama. i'll start with you, karine. because that's the key, right? because elizabeth warren is aspirational. but even when you look at the way republicans are thinking

right now, they do want stuff. they may be nervous about immigration, et cetera. but does she in your mind have the power to do what obama-d which is to get people off the fence, get people into the voting booths? >> yeah, so she's doing something very interesting. and i think to your point, david, she's tested. right? there was the horrible racial slur of pocahontas. she's made it, she went past that. and now she's tested against donald trump nm ways, which i think that's why republicans are now scared. she actually has this real populist message that's working. it's not faux populism like donald trump had. she tells a personal story every time she talks about her plan. and the other thing she's doing to your point, joy, is she's talking about -- she's also putting like racial inequality, she's talking about racial inequality as she's talking about the economy, as she's talking with about health care, as she's talking about all these plans, and if you look at wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania, there was a low turnout with african-american

voters, in particular wisconsin and michigan. if you have someone like that who's talking about populism, who's talking about multiracial populism, that could give some real excitement. and her energy is unbelievable. >> she's happy. >> she's happy. and it's like it's almost like -- she's a professor up there and she's explaining things in a way that you want to learn more. >> and it's funny, i describe her less as a professor, as like a teacher. she reminds me of like a high school teacher. which is a lot more accessible --? but not the class you want to skip. >> she's wearing well. some politicians, they seem great and then they get kind of sick of them and they don't -- as you point out, she's been tested. she took a punch, big punch. she came back and also this 2% wealth tax on over $50 million, net worth, is an elegant piece

of public policy. >> 100%. >> it has majority support. not just for democrats but republicans. and it gives her an answer to the question of whether she's fiscally responsible or not. it raises $2.7 trillion. it basically pays for all of these ambitious social programs. it's a much better idea than, say, aoc's raising the marginal income taxes. all of the income tax increases except reversing the trump tax cuts which everybody agrees will be done if a democrat's elect, the rest of them are going to be much harder to get through because of lobbyists. this is a very good -- >> that's the key, right? she's not saying she's going to raise taxes. she's saying two sxrernths it's so smart, she puts it down to two cents on billionaires. >> she's as barack obama called bill clinton, she's the secretary of explain things. and just listen to us. it's infectious.

we're excited listening to her. and the wearing well is important. she's just been on this remarkable trajectory that has not had any bumps. and it's important because to beat donald trump someone's got to do something -- a few things simultaneously. one, they're going to have to prosecute the case that what donald trump promised them didn't come through. he said, especially to african-americans, what do you have to lose? someone has to say you know what? what do you have to lose? i'll tell you what you lost. two, i'm going to tell you what i'm going to do for you. three, when that guy tells you that you didn't lose anything, that he's lying to you don't listen to him because he's absolutely lying. the problem with warren, and i really respect her and think she's doing great, is it's a double-edged coin because on the one hand being a woman next year's really going to help. the year of the woman in 2018 took back the house. the flip side is the republicans and the right wing are so good

at imprinting their nonsense on women. she's going to be old and crazy before you know it. >> that's what they'll do to her. it's a question of how does she respond to that. let me give you the last word on, this latosha. at a certain point tl there are not going to be 20 of them. just in the room you were in tonight. i'm not saying -- if it comes down to warren or harris, where do you think particularly black women will go? >> you know, that's a tough one. about half and half right now. i think that's part of where we are right now. we're so early in the cycle that people are saying those are two viable choices. and woe'll see after tomorrow night, people felt very strongly about elizabeth warren tonight. people who said they were looking at kamala harris as well. ultimately it's going to be the candidate that can really

convince folks they have a vision and they really believe authentically in moving that vision forward. and elizabeth has done a wonderful job at really articulating the issues she believes in and people are really paying attention to her. >> give us a little preview. did you talk biden at all with the voters you were with tonight? >> we did not talk biden at all tonight. what was interesting, though, was who did get a standing ovation with her answer on reparations was marianne williamson. marianne williamson, people were really excited. there was one person in the audience that screamed, you know, i didn't know her but i know her now. >> yeah, she did get a few applause lines. latosha brown, thank you very much. okay. stay with us. our panel's going to stay with us. coming up, the immigration debate. plus a look at the attacks on donald trump. >> there are the people that voted for donald trump before that aren't racist, they just wanted a better shake in the economy. so i would appeal to them. by don't think anyone can justify what this president is doing. doing.

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as the only one of the field of 37 ha actually won a trump state, 25% of my voters voted for donald trump i know we do have to win back some of those places we lost and get the trump voters back. >> during the second debate the 2020 presidential candidates made attack the president a priority. as each made their case to the american people about why they are best to beat donald trump next november. >> the reason we are going to defeat trump and beat him badly is that he is a fraud and a

phony and we're going to expose him for what he is. >> nominate me and you get to see the president of the united states stand next to an american war veteran and explain why he chose to pretend to be disabled when it was his chance to serve. >> donald trump disgraces the office of president every single day. and anyone on this stage tonight or tomorrow night would be a far better president. i promise no matter who our candidate is i will work my heart out to beat donald trump and to elect a democratic congress. >> joining us now is charley pierce, writer at large for esquire mngds, one of the most fun people to talk about anything including politics. all right, charley, you watched there in detroit. who stood out to you as someone you could see on stage with donald trump? >> well, i think obviously senator warren did.

i don't know what would happen if it was bernie sanders and donald trump on the same stage. i think we might -- singularity might be created there that swallows the entire world. but being stuck at the worst 19th hole at the worst golf club in david jolly's old district. but i think what you saw tonight, and i think that somebody should take this format before tomorrow night and throw it in the river because it was an awful format. and it allowed us to get a little giddy about people who aren't polling at 1%. and at the same time it was sort of a wwe thing. you knew going in that it was going to be elizabeth warren and bernie sanders and the quote unquote mod ratsz. and by the way, just as an side, how come nobody's a conservative democrat? how come it's always progressive'ses and moderates? john delaney's not a moderate

democrat. he's a gerald ford republican. >> of the moderates, just to zoom in on them for a minute, i counted one, two, three, four, five, you can say six if you include buttigieg who's more on the moderate side than -- he's sort of in the middle but he's kind of moderate. they have to narrow that down. they can't all go into battle to be the moderate versus biden. so did any of them versus each other -- as you said, john delaney was the most conservative. steve bullock, we've just seen them for the first time. did any of them jump off the page for you? >> no. absolutely not. these are people who are polling at zero percent. their margin of error is negative five. i thought the people -- and i felt -- the people i felt worse for were the people sort of in the middle, which is amy klobuchar and beto o'rourke. i thought pete buttigieg did a great -- i thought he had the best debate he's had. we've only had two. but i thought he was much more

commanding than he was in miami. but at the same time he's caught in this middle ground too. and i think his best answer was his answer on you know, look, they're going to call us far left socialists no matter what we do, we might as well go with what we believe in. >> lastly, just really quickly there were 38 minutes i counted, 39 minutes on health care. did you feel like the fight, particularly john delaney was taking to warren and bernie sanders, harmed the overall issue just because of the way it was framed and the way it played out? harmed the issue of medicare for all. >> no. because nobody's going to remember john delaney ten minutes after he drops out. i mean, the debate is going to go on. it's an obvious line of attack. for the republicans against whoever runs for the democrats. >> yeah. >> but the impact of john delaney on this election is going to be -- you know, it's going to poll at zero.

>> you need to come out of your shell, charlie pierce, but we appreciate you trying tonight. thank you very much, charlie pierce. appreciate you. and coming up, immigration and racism at tonight's debate. our panel will be back with us after the break. >> it is time to stop worrying about what the republicans will say. look, if -- it's true that if we embrace a far left agenda they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. if we embrace a conservative agenda, you know what they're going to do? they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. so let's just stand up for the right policy, go out there and defend it. most people think a button is just a button. ♪ that a speaker is just a speaker. ♪ or - that the journey can't be the destination. most people haven't driven a lincoln. discover the lincoln approach to craftsmanship at the lincoln summer invitation. right now, get 0% apr on all 2019 lincoln vehicles

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tonight democrats squared off on the issues of immigration and racism during the first round of the second 2020 democratic presidential debate. senator bernie sanders was one of the first candidates to call out donald trump's history of racism and xenophobia. >> we have got to take on trump's racism, his sexism, xenophobia, and come together in an unprecedented grassroots movement to not only defeat trump but to transform our economy and our government. >> senator amy klobuchar was asked how she would appeal to trump voters who prioritize the economy over the president's racism and bigotry. >> there are the people that voted for donald trump before that aren't racist, they just wanted a better shake in the

economy. and so i would appeal to them. but i don't think anyone can justify what this president is doing. >> mayor pete buttigieg condemned the humanitarian crisis at the border that the trump administration has created. >> we've got a crisis on our hands. and it's not just a crisis of immigration. it's a crisis of cruelty and incompetence. that has created a humanitarian disaster on our southern border. it is a stain on the united states of america. >> senator elizabeth warren emphasized that families arriving at the border should not be treated as criminals. >> right now the criminalization stachtd statute is what gives donald trump the ability to take children away from their parents. it's what gives him the ability to lock up people at our borders. we need to continue to have border security, and we can do that. but what we can't do is not live or vooul values. i've been down to the border.

i've seen the mothers. i have seen the cages of babies. we must be a country that every day lives our values. >> beto o'rourke, offered a forceful endorsement of reparations, saying he would sign into law a congressional reparations bill. >> the very foundation of this country, the wealth we built, the way we became the greatest country on the face of the planet, was literally on the backs of those who were kidnapped and brought here by force. the legacy of slavery and segregation and jim crow and suppression is alive and well in every aspect of the economy and in the country today. as president i will sign into law a new voting rights act. i will focus on education, address health care disparities, but i will also sign into law sheila jacksonlee's reparations bill so we can have the conversation we waited too long in this country to have. >> and the panel is back after this break. the panel is back ar this break was no hesitation, i went straight to ctca. after my mastectomy, it was maddening because i felt

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our panel is back with us, and joining the discussion is maria theresa kumar the president and ceo of border latino and an msnbc contributor. all right, what did you think of the debate tonight? who stood out? >> i thought that it was interesting. we had both mayor pete and beto o'rourke really trying to say that they are progressives but when you look at their policies they're not that progressive. they're actually trying to thread the middle. so what was interesting, i had almost this a-ha moment of they're trying to identify what we should be looking at in the map is who are the individuals that are actually going to bring in the southwest and the heartland. those are really where the electoral votes are. those are the ones that are going to decide the elections. for as much as i coming from california love california those are safe electoral votes. that's why what pete and beto o'rourke kept saying, i brought texas, i brought 38 legitimate ral votes. guess what, joy, right now arizona is 11 electoral votes. they are a hot seat for turning

purple. between arizona and texas basically the democrats run the map, they win. that's why he kept emphasizing that. i found that curious. it had never occurred to me looking at how the map had really flipped. these are the questions we should be asking, who are we going to bring in and who are the americans in the midwest and the south? in the south you find a lot more young people. a lot of industry has moved into the south. that's why georgia's in play. that's why north carolina is in play. that's why texas is in play. because you have a lot of young families, a lot of folks coming in from the midwest, with midwestern values coming into the south that have more moderate tendencies but you have democrats. in texas you have 2.5 million unregistered latinos that are not in alliance with what's happening in the white house but how do you get them excited? >> it did feel like there was the sort of old democratic party fighting the new democratic party in terms of immigration. it was a big divide where you

have some democrats on the moderate side who are absolutely 100% saying you cannot decriminal size coming across the border without documents, period, it'll make the democrats lose. and then you have democrats who are saying no, you need to have a new thinking on this. here is a debate between senator elizabeth warren and governor bullock on that very point. take a listen. >> we need to fix the crisis at the border, and a big part of how we do that is we do not play into donald trump's hands. he wants to stir up the crisis at the border because that's his overall message. if there's anything wrong in your life -- >> thank you, senator warren. senator bullock, your response. >> but you are playing into donald trump's hands. the challenge isn't that it's a criminal offense to cross the border. the challenge is that donald trump is president and using this to rip families apart. a sane immigration system needs a sane leader. >> and you know, there is a lot

of polling, steve kornacki went through it, that shows that a majority of americans, and it wasn't broken down by race, oppose the idea of decriminalizing people coming across the border. donald trump is really -- he's tapped into something one might say is quite ugly but he's tapped into something on this immigration issue and on whether undocumented immigrants should get health care, et cetera. what do you make of that divide in the democratic party right now? >> as far as -- it's very real, and i think we keep going into this -- i think what stood out for me more than anything, joy-s we got very much into policy but we didn't get into the vision of america. and whether we like it or not, donald trump has demonstrated that there is a vision that he has for america. and he communicates it crystal clearly. and the democrats need to win the imagination of americans of what that future looks like. we spent a lot of time in health care, but when you talk to people what they care about is not only health care but they also care about the jobs of the future, what is that vision, what is that big bold vision that's going to bring the

country together. people barely mentioned the hateful speech of donald trump when he was talking about "send her back." there are 132 million americans who are of color. we live in this country, believe in this country. but the moment that he said that, there's not one person that i know that has not heard that themselves. and so they need to create a unifying message of what the patriotism is, how do we move it forward, and when you talk about immigration we're falling into a trap. there's no question we need to modernize our immigration system but we also know we can't be dealing with individuals at the border with cruelty. and what he has done is he basically creates these photo ops that makes people feel incredibly vulnerable but we don't address the root of it, that that is actually against our values and against who we are. >> let's play one more bite and then bring the panel back in. this is tim ryan talking about this very issue because it does feel like almost democrats are opening up a sort of rust belt west divide in the party on this very question. take a listen. >> but you don't decriminalize

people just walking into the united states. if they're seeking asylum, of course we'd want to welcome them. we're a strong enough country to be able to welcome them. and as far as the health care goes, undocumented people buy health care too. >> and lindsey graham tweeted "the immigration debate is turning into an open invitation for any person who can make their way into america to come here. plus they'll be rewarded with free health care. most people on the planet can take democrats up on this offer with all due respect to bernie sanders their immigration proposals aren't humane, they're insane." that's their plan. >> they're running 2016 again. his campaign says something else. his campaign says let's expand the map to arizona, to minnesota, to new hampshire. donald trump is saying you people didn't think i'd win the first time. i did it, i did it just being me i did it by saying this horrible stuff, and -- >> but why are democrats playing into that? >> i don't know that we are. i think this notion of a divided party come the convention i

think we're going to be the most unified party in history. >> this idea of giving health care to -- >> it won't matter. let's be honest about this. >> none of these things are going to happen. >> but that's not relevant. >> it is 37. >> the question is what does it look like in a campaign? and even american latinos who are u.s. citizens would not like that idea. because as tim ryan said, they are paying -- >> let's let maria teresa get in. go on, maria teresa. >> if we want to get into -- if you want to get into the nuts and bolts and actually dive into why it benefit, the majority of undocumented immigrants on average are 27, 28 years old. they're young and the healthiest among us. we actually would want them to buy into our health care system because it would drive the costs down. but unfortunately we're not actually talking about this. we're trying to dehumanize these

individuals, say they want their sweat, we want their labor but we do not want their coverage so they could actually benefit us. we take their social security, we take their federal taxes. one of the reasons that our social security is -- because they pay into the system and we don't take it back. but we're having the wrong debate. what do we do with the 11 million individuals who are here? what do we do when we protect our borders but have smart immigration policy? nobody is talking about the future flows of the immigration. instead we're running into the us versus them. that is not helpful and we have to make sure we are nuanced when we have these conversations. >> absolutely. we need a bigger conversation because it does feel like the democrats are -- >> maria and i met in el paso last year at the border. we went to the first detention center. this is someone who's going to run against donald trump. donald trump is putting kids in cages. i think we're overthinking this. >> maria teresa kumar, thank you very much. we'll let you get some sleep.

a look at the kfrnds who are going to be debating tonight. including vice president joe biden. >> i almost wonder why you're democra democrats. you seem to think there's something wrong with using the instruments of government to help people. that is what government should do. all policies should help people thrive. that is how we will have peace and that is how we will have prosperity 37. >> thank you, miss william -- ty. >> thank you, miss william - now that you have new dr. scholl's massaging gel advanced insoles with softer, bouncier gel waves, you'll move over 10% more than before. dr. scholl's. born to move. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, hmm. exactly. so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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i think we're being offered a false choice. some who want to improve the affordable care act at the margins, others who want a medicare for all program that will force people off of private insurance. i have a better path. medicare for america. >> who's offering a false choice here? >> you have some. governor bullock. >> speaking of montana governor steve bullock, chris matthews interviewed him a short time ago. >> i'm here with governor steve

bullock. you know, tonight was a great debate, i've been saying, between the center of the party, traditional democrats, incremental development of the social programs, and the real hard let's go do it all big now. what did you think of that? >> i was sure pleased to be there, first, chris. i mentioned wish list economics. there's a whole lot of these plans that are written for press releases that would never pass and would make it harder for democrats to win. because number one ought to be about winning this election and then getting all these things done. so i was pleased, the only one that won a trump state, the only one that's brought people together, is a perspective in washington, d.c. i should at least be able to express that. >> how would it go over in your district, or your state, mont mornths if t montana if the democrats passed a law saying it's not really illegal, it's not -- to come to the country.

>> you've got -- if you you decriminalized border entry, if you give health your for everyone, you would have multiples of that. >> you think the coyotes would be spreading the word? >> you would have multiples. the biggest problem we have right now with immigration policy is donald trump. he's ripping our communities apart. he's ripping our country apart. and he's ripping families apart. but you can get there, sure, i believe in a secure border. i believe in keeping families safe. and i also believe in growing our economy. >> wish list, that was your phrase. you just listed it. the debate, senator warren, senator bernie sanders, they basically were going along with the green new deal. the green new deal increases the jobs for every single american right now. what do you think about that? >> i'm glad we're all talking about climate change. we can get there and we have to

address climate change. nobody on that stage remembers the first bush said he'd address if from the white house. the republicans won't acknowledge it's real right now because of the money in the elections. that's been the fight of my career. >> could you vote for a socialist for president? zblz >> i -- >> would you? >> i sure look forward to being able to vote for myself. >> but would you vote for a socialist? >> what works in burlington, vermont wouldn't work in billings, montana. i look forward to voting for myself. >> thank you very much, thank you. >> our panelists are back after the break with a look at the next debate. a look at the next debate.

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tonight's democratic primary debate just wrapped up a few short hours ago but believe it or not there's another democratic primary debate just a few hours away, one that will feature some of the top-tier candidates like joe biden and kamala harris as well as candidates who performed well in the first debates like cory booker and julianne castro. so what to expect for tomorrow. the panel is back. i'm going right to you, considerine jean-pierre. what are you looking for? it's kamala, biden, cory booker, castro, tulsy, gabbard, de blasio, yang, inslee, gillibrand, bennet. >> it is not just the candidates, it's the setup of the debate. if you look at the debate tonight the way it was done it was kind of all over the place. it was set up to be war erin and

bernie versus the moderates. so if i am biden advisers and i'm looking at this i would be really concerned about how this debate tonight will look like. will it be set up in a way where everybody's coming after me or is it going to be biden versus harris? so i would be really -- if i'm them i'd be like how are we going to work this? because we already see it's going to be going after people. they're setting up a situation where he had want to go -- folks to go after the front-runners. that's really a key important part. is how is it being set up not just the candidates. >> cory booker's already indicated he's going to go after joe biden. so you're going to have booker and harris in a kind of pincer effect on biden. and the whole debate is going to be how does he respond. my wife has this mental image of biden. she likes him a lot but she says it's like watching an 8-year-old riding their bike and you go -- for the first time.

like can he stay on the bike? is he going to go in the bushes? you're praying he's going to stay on the bike because you wish him well but you're worried he's going to go in the bushes. i think all eyes will be on can he pivot and punch. if he can't counterpunch, you can't play in this league. and in the last two presidential campaigns he has not performed well. so this is the test of whether the third timing the charm for him. >> i'm going to skip you for just one second and come back to you but i want to go to you on this. isn't it the case that kamala harris doesn't have to attack him but he has to be calm, right? he can't get mad. >> i think the problem is last night's debate or whatever you want to call it, tonight's debate, the last debate, was ideological. it wasn't really personal. i don't think anyone got into it in any kind of way. this one the second night is going to be like the scene in "anchorman" where the different

news crews are back in the alley and someone's throwing a triedent. biden dpnt have to win the first debate. he doesn't have to win tomorrow night. the problem is if he tries too hard, if he feels like he has to make up for the first debate by winning tomorrow, i just think he's going to overcompensate. i think booker's going to overcompensate. if i were on team kamala i would say you know what, be the adult, be the reason people look at these two hot haetsds that can't find the porridge at the right temperature. i think she has an easier time. i'm sure she is ready to go to the map if she is attacked, especially if biden gets personal on her relationship with her son when they were both attorney generals. i would not walk into that if i were joe biden. >> let me ask you because i am very curious. your former friend in the republican party. how are they more worried about? because if biden does well, he

does poll really well against donald trump. ? sure, he does. >> but there is a lot of reason to believe that kamala harris is more dangerous to trump. >> biden polls well right now 37 i think there are elements to look for tomorrow night. first of all, kamala will be going up tomorrow against much higher expectations than she did in the first debate. she came out as the star. she hasn't been fully certain on policy. she's going to get challenged. biden i think still will wrestle with the issue of talking about his experience but not paunting a picture for the future, a vision. if biden can't ever make that pivot to the future his numbers will begin to soften including against trump. the one thing we did not see tonight that is ripe for a candidate that can pull it off is tackling this issue of race right now in this moment. >> they're in one of the -- >> given the context of the last two weeks outrage is foundational. that's normal. we need how to speak to the

person, the unsettled american spirit we're living through right now. this is a hard time. and bringing white america along as to why the racism out of the white house matters, it will take a bill bill clinton "i feel your pain" moment. it's going to be an empathetic moment not an outrage moment. >> and someone needs to -- >> two pieces of history people should remember. one the democratic party has never elected a president to their first team older than 54. and the democratic party has never elected a president who has run for president more than once. you've got a couple of people fighting that. unfortunately senator warren is in that bucket too. but sometimes when you see these folks on stage together you say oh, i see@38-year-old guy is more appealing than the 77-year-old. >> he's qualifying for the next debate. smart money's writing him off, they shouldn't. >> speaking of the next debate the good news for a lot of people is there will be fewer people. not tomorrow night but after that. philippe ryan, david jolly,

jonathan alter, and karine janua jean-pierre. our coverage continues with brian williams right now. >> any advice to the folks on the stage tomorrow night? >> have fun. this is great. it's a chance to just to reset. we're about to go to chris matthews ewes. who has senator klobuchar. this is coverage our post debate coverage from the first ten. tomorrow night the second group of ten. from the fox theater in detroit, michigan. are you ready? >> yes, i am. i have senator klobuchar of minnesota. i want to ask you about that dichotomy between the progressive people, sanders. democratic socialist. a structural change person. senator warren. and the other side all the other moderates challenging them. er