united states just to talk about n. i don't know. i've been out of politics for a what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. while. doesn't team to be a 90-10 i don't get it. issue. >> what i saw on stage, i love our biggest problem in what elizabeth warren did, because she not just nailed down washington is corruption. the progressive platform, she it is giant corporations that cemented it, and she's the one, have taken our government and that are holding it by the i think, going forward that throat. everyone, whether you're a and we need to have the courage moderate, whether you're progressive, are going to have to fight back against that and to contend with. but here's the rub exactly to until we're ready to do that, your point. it's just more of the same. elizabeth warren was asked not well, i'm ready to get in this once, joe, not twice, but three fight. i'm ready to win this fight. times during the course of the debate and afterwards, would >> a snapshot of last night's your health care plan raise democratic debate where the taxes for the middle class? progressive wing of the party is her response each time was, literally center stage. costs will go down. well, here's the reality. this morning, several of last night's democratic debate when a mom pays her taxes every participants will be our guests, two weeks to the federal including mayor pete buttigieg, government in her paycheck, she senator amy klobuchar, doesn't pay costs, she pays taxes. congressman tim ryan, governor so she's got to address what her steve bullock, and former policies will do exactly to your congressman beto o'rourke. good morning and welcome to point, joe, because the question "morning joe," it is wednesday americans will ultimately ask

july 31st, along with joe, themselves in the democratic willie, and me, we have msnbc party, do you want to be woke or do you want to win? contributor, mike barnable, white house reporter for the if you want to win, and amy associated press, jonathan klobuchar, tim ryan and others were pushing this point, you lemire, white house have to come to the table with correspondent for pbs news hour, the policies that will resonate with the american people, and what you laid out, joe, is not it. >> and mika, really quickly, by yamic yamiche. the way, it's not an either/or. >> the progressives were center stage, flanked on the wings by you can do both, it's just moderates. you've got to find the right there was great give and take. balance. >> let's bring in editor in i think any donald trump chief of cosmopolitan magazine supporter that saw this debate stage might not have as many jessica pelles. easy targets as they did after the last round of democratic did candidates make a dent in debates because you actually had joe biden's lead in the poll for some more moderate candidates young voters? >> they did not. he's still the leader in our actually suggesting more of a polls, and he is pulling ahead practical approach, let's say for two reasons. the first is that in a crowded than an overly utopian approach sea of candidates who are struggling to differentiate which i think a lot of americans themselves from each other, he has a couple advantages. would think when you're talking the first is serious name about giving health care to illegal immigrants and you're recognition. he also evokes sent mimentalityf talking about giving free

education to somebody because they cross the border, i think a calmer time. he has the obama halo. that's a 80/20 issue, americans would be against it and think it was too utopian. i would be remiss if his >> and willie geist, first of all, i thought the debate was friendly relationship with obama really well run. they got a lot in there, the lt -- a lot of conversations. wasn't fodder and they were i can't wait until we get back to smaller numbers. a little frustrating when they had to move on. concerned about that. who do you think had the stand i do not think he would hold out nights, a few candidates had that position unless he's really breakout moments? >> i think miami set up detroit, strong tonight. >> you asked readers about their and detroit was a reaction to biggest fears heading into 2020. what happened in miami. you had of all people, we were this is so important because you just talking about this, john have so many readers giving you delaney was the leadoff guy, feedback. what did they tell you? >> the most frequent response i posed as the moderate to go got from my readers last night was, i'm afraid that trump will after bernie sanders, elizabeth get reelected and hate will warren, and governor hickenlooper got in talking continue to spread. i will lose my reproductive about wish list economics. this was the push back of moderates against elizabeth freedom, climate change will warren and bernie sanders and continue to be ignored. these are very serious issues push back about some of the

concerns that more moderate and there is a loft concet of c democrats have about the direction of the party and the direction this primary is about the damage he could do the next four years. heading. >> that's the bottom line. we'll see if we see more of that it will be so interesting to see tonight. >> what's interesting mike how it goes tonight and from barnicle, is that you did have your readers tomorrow. that give and take. you did have the back and forth, the question seems to be who can and i think a lot of people beat trump, and i think joe biden has a lot on the line have -- i can't say they have forgotten but perhaps it has tonight. >> he does. we'll see which joe biden shows been pushed to the back of their mind. maybe we remember it because we up tonight. talked about it every day for his team knows he needs to have two years. a much better performance than the battle over obamacare and he had the first night, but he the fight, the struggle just to has a delicate needle to thread, get it to where it was. right? he'll have to defend his record i think they ended up with 50 and at the same time he'll have votes and the vice president had to go on offense, so we'll see to break that vote. if he's able to land those but it was the toughest battle. democrats lost. punches. >> governor bullock framed it as let's think about this. over the next six years, wishful economics and that's democrats lost a thousand seats, legislative seats across the nation after obamacare passed in part because of the political sort of the debate democrats are

having. and joe biden is going to need to show a better command of the fight that democrats put up stage than last time but be able with. to tie those two things george bush once said, it's together. hard, it's hard, and the people a practical approach but also big ideas. are going around throwing around >> jessica, millennials and joe promises, they sound an awful lot like donald trump's promises for universal health care, very biden's age? >> it's interesting. easy to make promises on the millennials tell us by majority that they do not make choices by campaign stage. elizabeth warren said the worst problem we have in washington, age or gender. d.c. is corruption. i'd say that americans probably what they are swayed by are think the worst problem we have policy. in washington, d.c. over the th this is a very practical feet on last 20, 25 years are broken the ground generation that will promises and god bless elizabeth vote for a candidate on what warren and bernie if they can they believe in. >> so bottom line is, as we look toward tonight, into the future and next year, we have a real follow through with what they say, but i won't condemn people for trying to figure out what advantage in that trump unifies can we do, what promises can we our party, no matter who the deliver. nominee is. i hate to keep going on and on >> absolutely. >> all right. wow. a lot to look forward to about this, but man, obamacare tonight. that does it for us this was a fight to the political morning. death, and for people to now go, stephanie ruhle picks up the that didn't go far enough. coverage right now. >> thanks, mika. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. let's do ten times the amount of work. it's not realistic, i don't

it is wednesday, july 31st, and think. >> joe, you know, that gets to a busy day it is, so let's get the point of the biggest winner last night, and i think a lot of started. one debate down and another to people would think that the go. tonight we're going to see part biggest winner last night was 2 of this democratic substance because they actually presidential debate and a lot of what we expect to see tonight discussed health care legislation in some detail, and will have to do with what we saw last night in part 1. elizabeth warren, she has a grasp of details that she it was packed with fiery moments manages to articulate in very from health care to immigration to economics. the idealogical divide between short bytes. the progressives and the 30 and 60 second bytes i think moderates within the democratic that resonate with people, and party was front and center. >> i think democrats win when we as far as the biggest problem in washington, i think it was going to revert to what's going to run on real solutions, not impossible promises. happen tonight. i think a lot of people, when we run on things that are especially democrats watching these debates, to them, the biggest problem in washington is donald trump. and i think that's where it will go tonight. i think last night there were several people on that stage last night who will disappear from the national stage but the debate last night that once it got going after about 20 minutes, it was pretty good. it was pretty educational. a lot of substance. that was kind of impressive. >> let's go through it, mika.

>> right off the bat, it was a clash of ideas between lower polling candidates urging incremental change and senators elizabeth warren and bernie sanders advocating for a system wide overhaul. here are some of the opening statements. >> folks, we have a choice, we can go down the road that senator sanders and senator warren want to take us with bad policies like medicare for all, free everything and impossible promises that will turn off independent voters and get trump reelected. >> last year, democrats flipped 40 republican seats in the house and not one of those 40 democrats supported the policies of our front runners at center stage. >> that teacher working a second job just to afford her insulin, they can't wait for a revolution. >> this isn't about left or right. this is about new and better. i will offer solutions that are bold, that are realistic.

>> you're going to hear a lot of promises up here, but i'm going to tell you this, yes, i have bold ideas, but they are grounded in reality. >> our problems didn't start with donald trump. donald trump is part of a corrupt, rigged system that has helped the wealthy and the well connected and kicked dirt in the faces of everyone else. we're not going to solve the urgent problems that we face with small ideas and spinelessness. we're going to solve them by being the democratic party of big structural change. >> by the way, willie, there is no doubt that you had elizabeth warren and bernie sanders were on fire last night. >> oh, my gosh. >> and for a primary, for a debate, that is what you want to do. i mean, i'm talking about the mundane mechanics of washington, d.c. but boy, they were on fire last night. >> yeah, there's no question about it. i mean, to follow up with what

mike said and you were saying earlier, this was a substantiative debate. whether or not you agreed with what all of these candidates were saying, they were articulate, they were well versed, fluent in their policy, and you know, elizabeth warren, you may not agree with her ideas but boy does she know them, and john delaney, if you're a progressive, you may think he doesn't go too far, but he's thought out his ideas, and i think it's worth pausing in the last couple of year's worth that have been bereft of policy discussion, it's nice to hear a little bit of that on stage, john l john, there was a lot of obama representatives, rahm emanuel put out a memo yesterday admonishing the democrats on the stage not to repeat what happened in miami, unless they want to lose and handle the election to donald trump. david axel rod after the debate, back and forth with elizabeth

warren pushing her on her ideas. that was front and center, that sort of conversation in the party about how far left to go. >> that's what the debate was about, where the spirit and soul of the democratic party is right now, between elizabeth warren and bernie sanders who were both on fire and had very good moments, exchanging very little fire on each other, and that was interesting. it seemingly was a sense they are competing with some of the same voters, yet they didn't interact with each other, and when they did it was to agree, and they indeed took on fire from more of the moderates and some were scored points. at some point, if elizabeth warren or bernie sanders, some of the attacks that came from fellow democrats, you could hear echoed and amplified from republicans down the road. i think the debate about medicare for all of course is one that's going to really shape this democratic contest in the months ahead. i'm certain it will be more about it tonight. what's also interesting is what didn't come up last night. talk about the federal judiciary and the supreme court didn't

come up last night. impeachment didn't come up last night. robert mueller, who dominated the news cycle last night didn't come up last night. >> yeah. >> sure. >> but medicare for all did. >> medicare for all. >> also the red sox did not come up last nigh. >> tons of exchanges. >> about paired for amedicare f. >> there's no need to debate that. >> on the medicare for all, the hospitals will save substantial sums of money because they're not going to be sending a fortune doing dealing and the other bureaucratic things they have to do today. >> it doesn't add up. >> maybe you make money off of health care. >> his math is wrong. that's all i'm saying. his math is wrong. it's been well documented if all the bills were paid at medicare rate, which is specifically, i

think in section 1200 of their bill, then many hospitals in this country would close. >> i think we're being offered a false choice, some who want to improve the affordable care act at the margins, others who want a medicare for all program that will force people off of private insurance. i have a better path. medicare for america, everyone who's uninsured is enrolled in medicare tomorrow. >> at the end of the day, i'm not going to support any plan that rips away quality health care from individuals. this is an example of wish list economics. it used to just be republicans that wanted to repeal and replace, now many democrats do as well. >> let's be clear about this. we are the democrats, we are not about trying to take away health care from anyone. that's what the republicans are trying to do. >> okay. so let's bring in yamiche, director of communications for

hillary clinton. it must be interesting for barack obama and everybody who fought so hard for obamacare over the first two years of his administration to hear suddenly that their position is a republican sellout position, and that it just doesn't go far enough. i guess that does talk about how far the democratic party has come in a few years, but from when you go out and you interview people, do people want obamacare to be mended and not ended or do you see a lot of democrats in the base really wanting to try medicare for all? >> well, this debate was really about the fault lines running through the democratic party. the question is do voters want someone who's going to be thinking about practical ideas and chasing independent voters who voted for president trump but who are now double thinking their idea and thinking they can go with the democrats or do you want a democrat who has big

progressive, bold ideas who wants to redo the entire system. when i talk to voters, they're in some ways split on that. they like the idea of building on obamacare if you're a democrat, especially if you're someone who was a fan of the president, but then there are people who are saying, look, obamacare is really expensive. i want something that is bigger than that. most democrats that i talked to recognize how long it took for democrats to get health care passed in it country, and they're very worried that they're not sure that if the republicans hold on to the senate, democrats will be able to change health care in any big ways. that's interesting about last night's debate, the idea that bernie sanders and elizabeth warren, they were going to fact off everyone else and they weren't going to fight each other. a lot of people thought that putting bernie sanders and elizabeth warren on the stage, you're going to get this big food fight, and instead what you got was a park picnic and classic straus and a

conversation about substance. they have supporters that say we want medicare for all. go for it completely. >> there was a split on stage. i'm sure you heard the discussion for willie talking about members of the obama administration taking to task some progressives who suggested that obamacare was somehow too conservative, didn't go far enough. i don't know about you but i remember what it was like around washington in 2009. that was a pitched battle. barack obama pushed washington, pushed congress, pushed america as far as he could possibly push them and barely got obamacare over the finish line. now for it to be dismissed as a republican idea, now for it to be dismissed as too conservative, has to really be galling for barack obama and all of those who fought to pass obamacare.

>> yeah, joe, you're exactly right. i was working on capitol hill at the time that obamacare was passed and i will tell you, it was very very difficult to get that bill passed. there were lots of deals that were made, lots of concessions to try to get this passed. so the fact that this has now turned into something that people would insinuate that this is a republican type of bill is of course going to anger a lot of obama administration officials who were instrumental in getting this bill passed. joe, you will see this tonight from joe biden. i have to think he lost the debate and is thinking here's a moment where i can draw a contrast. i want to say something about what yamiche just said is that the democratic party is split in terms of where we should go on health care. that is true but we've got to start looking forward at the general election and the 4 to 5% of the electorate who is going to be the ultimate deciders of this election. i can tell you, i don't think a lot of folks want to get their private health insurance taken

away. i think a lot of them want to fix obamacare, want to make changes to the system, have affordable health care but they don't want to have the system overhauled because they remember how difficult it was to get this passed in the first place. >> it will be interesting tonight as we look ahead, joe biden on stage with kamala harris, cory booker and others, the centrist is the man leading the race. in other words, last night, the centrists who were pushing back frankly were fringe candidates, polling down low single digits. the man in the middle of the stage will be pushing back against medicare for all ideas and progressive concepts. joe biden as we've talked about will have to have a good performance tonight. he looked rusty the first time out. america will be watching to see how he performs tonight, and again he will be the moderate at the middle of that stage. >> and what a perfect person to have at the middle of that stage defending obamacare. yamiche, remember what he whispered to barack obama after it passed, something like, hey, this is a big dog gone good

deal, something along those lines, but he was right, that's a guy who had been around washington since he was 29 years old. the obama administration pushed washington and america as far as it could be pushed. there were ugly town hall meetings. just ask claire mccaskill. so biden in a sense seems like the perfect person to be center stage, and either he defends obama or he's overrun by progressives who want to go much further. >> i've been having conversations with former obama officials and they tell me that, yes, of course, obamacare is hard to get, and they had to drag the country to get that over the finish line. they also recognize that obamacare was not something that was ever fully implemented. democrats point to the fact that not all 50 states implemented the health care plan in the way that they wanted to see it. i have been hearing from people

who say that was a starting point. we're okay with people building on it. the sad thing is, and the thing that people say is frustrating for them is when people say, well, we need to pull that out completely, and start all over again. democrats in the obama administration recognize how hard that's going to be. >> so mika, again, biden is going to be talking tonight about mending it, and not ending it. and again, you look at how difficult that was to pass. it's going to be fascinating. i would love to hear progressives tonight on stage when they start talking about, oh, no, no, obamacare is a sellout, let's have medicare for all. i would like somebody on stage, a progressive tonight to explain how when barack obama had almost a filibuster proof, almost a filibuster proof democratic senate, they still just barely were able to push it over the finish line, and we paid a tremendous political price for doing just that. still ahead, we're going to

hear from a full group of presidential candidates, five of last night's 2020 contenders join us here on "morning joe." plus, marianne williamson's performance at last night's debate. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. liberty mut. they customized my car insurance, so i only pay for what i need. then i won the lottery, got hair plugs, and started working out. and so can you! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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this is part of the dark underbelly of american society. the racism, the bigotry, and the entire conversation that we're having here tonight, if you think any of this wonkiness is going to deal with this dark psychic force of the collect vised hatred that this president is bringing up in this country, i'm afraid the democrats are going to see some very dark day sg s. marianne williamson, talking about flint, and blasting

president trump. i will say, i am surprised, i'm going to say this, but actually she gave some of the best political advice, any democrats could give because we're sitting here, again, it's a wonky discussion about medicare for all versus mending obamacare. very very important. but that's not where voters are right now. voters are scared. they're scared of donald trump. they see something happening to their country that they've never seen in their lifetime, and they don't -- they'll have some discussions, yes, tell me where you stand. but it is. it is a much bigger threat to this country. and i think americans want somebody up there. ronald reagan was brilliant at it, bill clinton was brilliant doing it. barack obama, the same. they want somebody that rises above brookings institute versus heritage foundation policy battle to talk about the bigger battle against racism, against

bigotry, against all the things that donald trump has done to push this country to the edge. >> so willie, i think she was kind of good. like, right there, up there with the other candidates. >> honestly she had some great moments. she was sort of the punch line from the first debate, but, you know, she's not going to dive deep into policy. that's not her thing, but she does, as joe says, she taps into the gut feeling of the election, there's the combination of the head and gut and she's talking about the gut. i will point out, she was the most searched google candidate yesterday. after the 50 states, steve bulls the most searched in montana, but all 49 of the other states, it was marianne williamson, people were most curious about after watching that. >> and seriously, the reaction is similar to anything we had, wait a minute, who is this lady, she's pretty good. like searching her and going, you know, where has she been all of our lives.

but i'm not sure she's going to end up making it to the top tier, having said that, she was impressive. >> it was critical for being on the stage after the first debate, i don't think it's such a bad thing for the democratic party to have somebody who can go there. out of ten candidates, out of 20 candidates and speak more generally about the challenges that are gripping the country. so again, she's, i'll just say it, she's not going to probably go anywhere in any of the primary contests, but certainly i think she got the tone right. >> yeah. >> when it came to what the battle lines really are. again, mike, we're not talking about the subsection of bernie sanders medicare for all bill. that's not what americans want to hear about. they want to hear about how donald trump is a bigot, how donald trump is a racist, how donald trump has shattered constitutional norms, how donald trump is putting a dupe in for

the most important position. he's got a bunch of sycophants around him. he's appointing federal judges that don't respect precedent. that's what they want to hear. >> joe, bingo with a capital b on that. i'm going to tell you, the president of the united states is now in a position where he scares people. he scares average americans because they sense a portion of the country that they are familiar with, a portion of how they live and what they have become familiar with is going down the drain because of him. yesterday, quinnipiac poll, 51% of those people polled think the president of the united states is a racist as opposed to 45% who say no, he's not a racist. that is an astounding number. and if you extrapolate that, joe, out into the suburbs, this fall or next fall, he's going to have real difficulty, because you can't scare people. he has scared people. >> he's scared people, and you look at this 51% of americans

think that donald trump is a racist, is a bigot. i think it's safe to say in modern polling, no president has ever even had that question asked about him, let alone 51% of americans think that he's a bigot and a racist. jonathan lemire, also, the republican party is going to pay for this, i believe, over the long haul because you have donald trump who makes a racist statement and then after making the racist statement, then will say, oh, the person i just made a racist statement about is a racist also. and then the republicans go, well, listen, we don't want to weigh in. come on, everybody's calling everybody a racist. come on, let's just all get along. americans can see through that. it's sad and pathetic on the republican party's part. they're still not calling out racism and every demographic trend in america shows that the

party acting that way is going to be relegated to the dust bin of political history in america. that would be the gop. >> joe, i mean, you're right. and marianne williamson did sort of the touch on that, the idea of this shadow of racism is hovering over this entire campaign, and certainly the white house right now, and it is no republicans or very very few have spoken out and condemned what the president said, a few weeks ago about the four congresswomen of color, elijah cummings, and even discussed yesterday, mark meadows issued a wishy washy statement, saying neither cummings or the president were a racist, no honest assessment could suggest that elijah cummings was being racist in any of this. the president has not backed away from this at all. at the white house, he repeatedly went after cummings, baltimore, he is doing so on twitter, i expect we're going to hear from him this morning weighing in on the proceedings in the debate.

his rebuttal here, two nights after the democrats get his stage, the president will have his rally in cincinnati, ohio, tomorrow night, the first one he has had since the north carolina rally, which dominated the discourse, and at that moment, seemed to rattle republicans, but then they quickly backed away from that, and the president who expressed some regret for the chant the day after then of course doubled down yet again, and it remains to be seen what happens, and i think there could be a real dichotomy of the democrats discussing the horrors of racism and condemning it, and potentially a chant breaking out at the president's rally that seems to embrace it. >> all right. mayor pete buttigieg had a message for republican members of congress about this last night. take a listen. >> the only reason we've got this president is that normal didn't work. we have to be ready to take on this president and by the way, something that hasn't been talked about as much tonight, take on his enablers in

congress. you know, when david duke ran for congress, ran for governor, the republican party 20 years ago, ran away from him. today they are supporting naked racism in the white house or at best silent about it. if you are watching this at home and you are a republican member of congress, consider the fact that when the sun sets on your career and they are writing your story, of all of the good and bad things you did in your life, the thing you will be remembered for is whether in this moment with this president you found the courage to stand up to him or you continued to put party over country. >> adrian el rod, i can't tell you how many people i talked to when we talk about the democratic field over dinner o e drinks or whatever, long time democrats who loved barack obama, who really are disturbed by what they're seeing today but know something needs to happen, they think he's the one, and then they shake their head because he's not going to be the one. what is it about mayor pete that

has so many people noticing him, thinking he's remarkable, but then concerned because it's like there's not really one candidate who they think can push them through this very difficult time. >> yeah, mika, that's what's so fascinating about this primary. i think that reiterates why we need to winnow the field so we can really see an actual debate between the contenders who have a viable chance at becoming the democratic nominee. mayor pete brings something unique and special to the race. he's such a good messenger. so many people say he reminds them of the spirit and the, you know, the positive nature that barack obama brought to the race in 2008 and of course ultimately became president. there's a lot of feelings people have toward mayor pete in that regard. you look, he may end up being the nominee, we'll see, but i think we actually need to see a real debate between the five to

six contenders before maybe people will have a better chance to really see how he plays out in that setting and if he can actually be a viable candidate in their mind in terms of being the nominee. >> all right. still to come, his hometown paper says he did well last night when he wasn't lost in the cross fire. former texas 2020 presidential candidate, beto o'rourke joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." beto o'rourke joins us straight ahead on "morning joe. don't miss your golden opportunity

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i think we're being offered a false choice, some who want to improve the affordable care act at the margins, others who want a medicare for all program that will force people off of private insurance. i have a better path. medicare for america. everyone who's uninsured is enrolled in medicare tomorrow. >> and joining us now, former u.s. congressman from texas, candidate for president of the united states, democrat beto o'rourke. great to have you on the show this morning. >> good morning. >> so beto, congratulations last night on the debate. it reminded me, though, of

jurisprudence professor that would hammer home to us, what is and what ought to be the law, and i heard that last nighttime and time again. where are we. what is possible, and what should be possible. it seems like you were trying to find the middle ground there. tell us about it. >> i'm trying to find the most ambitious goal on any given policy issue and find a way to get america there. on health care, which dominated the debate and dominates so many of the town hall meetings that we have across this country, medicare for america ensures that we have universal guaranteed high quality care. it enrolls everyone who's uninsured in medicare, those who are insufficiently insured can elect to move into medicare but it keeps employer sponsored insurance for the tens of millions of our fellow americans who have it, who like it, because it works for them, and

their families. i think that's the best possible path to get there. and we can look at any other issue. and we can find those very pragmatic possible paths to get us to the most ambitious goals and i want to take america there. >> congressman, it's willie geist, it's good to see you this morning. that's where you sort of drew your contrast with senators bernie sanders and elizabeth warren who want pure medicare for all which is to say get rid of private insurance, put everybody in the country on a government run health care program. why do you think theirs is a bad idea? >> i don't know that theirs is a bad idea as much as what i know what we're proposing is the best possible path because when i listen to our fellow americans. i'll give you an example. i was talking to detailer in nevada, president of the culinary workers, 60,000 members, many of whom have fought for health care plans, in some cases in lieu of wage increases or other earned benefits, they want to keep that health care plan and i think it's just really important for

those of us that want to hold these positions of public trust to listen to those who we want to serve and hear how it is that they want us to get there. in that case and so many other instances, they want us to be able to keep choice or employer sponsored insurance. we can still get to universal guaranteed care, but we listen to our fellow americans and ensure they're part of the solution. >> you have served in the congress, do you think medicare for all has a chance of passing through both the house and the senate? >> i don't know. i think it's a little bit less likely than the option that we're proposing. again, it respects the choices that our fellow americans are making and what i'm hearing, and what i figure republican members of congress are hearing are people who are really anxious about losing insurance or being unable to afford the care that they already have, rationing the medications that they are prescribed or just not going to a doctors visit because they

can't afford the copay. we need a better system and what i learned in my six years in congress, we have to work with democrats, and we have to build democratic majorities but where we can, let's find that common ground with our republican colleagues and ensure we do what's right for america at the end of the day. medicare for america that gets everybody covered, everybody able to see a provider is the best possible path on health care. >> congressman, it's jonathan lemire, another issue last night where there was a divide among democrats on health care was on immigration, a particular flash point is whether you should decriminalize border crossings, elizabeth warren, senator warren, among others suggested they should. you say no. tell us why the bush era law should not be repealed? >> you know, it's interesting and i tried to correct the record but wasn't recognized to do this. senator warren mistakenly said that donald trump is using the

criminal code to separate families and to cage kids and visit this cruelty and unhumanity on our fellow human beings and that's just not right. you can use the civil code, the criminal code or you can just look to one of the cruellest most inhumane presidents that we have ever had. that's the problem that we have right now. it's not an immigration law that has been on the books for decades. having said that, we will rewrite that law, so we are specific that no one is seeking asylum or refuge will ever be criminally prosecuted or caged in a detention center will have a family case management program but we'll also ensure that there's a lawful, orderly, safe path for people to come here, to work jobs or to go to school, or to join family, and if we do that, then i expect people to follow our laws and reserve the right to criminally prosecute anybody who willfully does not or seeks to defraud the government. it's another example of getting

to an ambitious goal, rewriting our immigration laws in our own image but taking a pragmatic approach that listens to our fellow americans who want to make sure that we maintain the integrity of our laws and the u.s. mexico border. >> race is a constant and volatile issue in life and american politics. last night you were quite articulate in discussing reparations and in the words of sheila lee jackson's reparations bill, can you explain to the american people who are watching this right now and listening to this right now what form of reparations are you talking about. who pays what how much? >> that's the question that the reparations commission that sheila jackson lee has proposed would answer, and it would answer it by bringing every single american into the conversation, giving them a seat at the table, and finally, for once, telling the full and complete american story.

how did we end up where there is ten times the wealth in white america than there is in black america or an internal mortality crisis that is three times as deadly for women of color or education disparities where you are five times as likely to be disciplined in a kindergarten classroom if you're a child of color, this is the legacy of slavery, and jim crow and suppression, alive and well today. we need to listen to everyone who has born the consequences of this problem in our country. this commission would begin that process of telling the national story, and from that we ensure that we repair the damage done, and we stop visiting these kind of injustices on future generations. >> so beto, some folks have said skrus talking about -- just talking about your campaign, that they would rather you run for senate because they want you in the game, they want you in the process, they want you as a part of this conversation because you have so much to offer.

you're sticking to your candidacy for president of the united states. what is it going to take to breakthrough and raise those poll numbers above 2%? >> i'm so glad you asked and that you asked specifically about polls because yesterday there was a really exciting poll that came out from texas. it had each of the major democratic candidates in a head-to-head match up with donald trump in the state of texas, and far and away, we were ahead of everyone with 11 points over donald trump. as you know, there are 38 electoral college votes in texas. that beats donald trump in november of 2020 and it forever changes the e llectoral landsca in the united states of america. we can put texas in play, and further more, we can win texas. i'm going to make sure that the rest of america hears that story because the number one priority for voters right now is defeating donald trump in 2020. >> so congressman, i'm glad you brought that up.

we were talking earlier in the show about the demographic changes that obviously nobody in the white house or the republican party are aware of. all the demographic changes show that over the next 20 years, i think for the rest of our lifetimes, actually, those demographic changes will more reflect the coalition that elected barack obama in 2008 than donald trump in 2016. the game changer, though, is texas, and do you believe if you can convince enough democrats that you can win texas and completely scramble the electoral map that you have a shot at the nomination. >> absolutely. texas prior to 2018, despite the demographic changes that you've just described was 50th in the country in voter turnout. by going everywhere to those 254 counties, giving everyone a reason to vote. we saw the greatest turnout in a midterm election, perhaps in

texas history and importantly not just won more votes than any democrat in our state's history but won nemindependence for the first time in decades, won nearly half a million republicans who voted for greg abbott for governor, and me for senator, it's going to take that kind of movement of democrats and independents and republicans not just to defeat donald trump but to get the kind of majorities in the house and the senate that we need and then to be able to hold them year in year out, cycle in, and cycle out to overcome some of the greatest challenges we have ever faced and achieve the most ambitious agenda we have ever set on health care, on climate, on immigration, and on the economy. we can do it, and texas is absolutely key. >> all right. beto o'rourke, thank you very much. congratulations on last night, and it's been fun getting to know you. we'll see you soon. >> thank you. >> and beto kicked off our big lineup of candidates today. still to come, we'll be joined by mayor pete buttigieg, senator

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we'll call his racism out for what it is, and also talk about its consequences. >> we need to call out white supremacy for what it is. domestic terrorism, and it poses a threat to the united states of america. we live in a country now where the president is advancing environmental racism, economic racism, criminal justice racism, health care racism. the way we do better is to fight back and show something better. >> there are people that voted for donald trump before that aren't racist, they just wanted

a better shake in the economy, and so i would appeal to them. >> i have proposed that we do everything from investing in historically red line neighborhoods to build black wealth in home ownership to supporting entrepreneurship for black americans. >> boy, i think last night was a good night for the democrats. i really do. you had progressives in the middle who were on fire. bernie sanders woke up. and we'll see what happens. and elizabeth warren, she's two for two, and the moderates as well, i think hickenlooper did very very well. hey, i was a governor, come on, get real. i said it like chris matthews there. get real. yamiche, what are you looking for tonight? is it joe biden against the world? joe versus kamala. what do you look for tonight? >> i'm in ohio where there are voters here who are so receptive to president trump's really putting culture and divisions at the center of his campaign, so

i'm looking for democrats to see which one is going to be talking specifically and plainly about race. last night what we saw were democrats not trying to pull any punches on saying what president trump was doing, so i think all eyes are going to be on that, and of course this is joe biden and senator harris part two, so i want to see how they interact, whether or not she goes after him again and again points out their differences, whether or not joe biden comes more prepared. last time he said that he was not prepared to be taking on senator harris so directly, so i think it's going to be really interesting to see if his debate prep has changed and whether or not any of the other candidates, including julian castro who had a pretty good night the first debate, and of course kind of got overshadowed by all of senator harris's shine and her ability to take apart joe biden. >> and this reminds me of ronald reagan's debate in 1994, he

seemed lost and disoriented at times, his first debate against walter mondale, came back strong in the second debate. there are concerns about joe biden and the democratic party. we hear about it every day, we don't know if he's up to the task, even though it's not what everybody says, every democrat is scared to death, he's too old and not up to running for president. tonight is really a big night for joe biden, isn't it? >> it's a huge night for joe biden, joe, and look, if he does not have a strong debate performance, if he does not improve dramatically from his first debate performance, he's going to have some real problems going forward, but i have to think, especially based on comments that he has made and statements that his staff has put out, i think he's more prepared this time. i think he's willing to go after people like kamala harris, be a little bit more aggressive. you know, because he's fighting for this nomination. right now he's riding high in the polls, we all know how the early polls look, joe, and if he

does not have a more aggressive posture, if he does not defend his record and play some offense as well, i think he's going to have a hard time. i'm looking to see how joe performs tonight. i'm also looking to see how cory booker does. i do think he's rising in the polls a little bit. he's obviously drawn a contrast with joe biden on several issues. i'm looking to see if he goes after kamala harris on her record as a prosecutor on a number of issues that they have slight differences on, and i'm looking to julian castro who had a great breakout performance in the first debate, i'm looking to see how he does in the second debate again. >> adrian elrod and yamiche alcindor, can't wait to hear from you tomorrow. four more candidates on the debate stage last night, mayor pete buttigieg, senator amy klobuchar, congressman tim ryan, and governor steve bullock. what is different about the state of race this morning. we'll discuss that as we look ahead to tonight, and round two

of the debates. "morning joe" is back in a moment. he debates "morning joe" is back in a moment you should be mad at tech that's unnecessarily complicated. make ice. but you're not, because you have e*trade, which isn't complicated. their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. don't get mad. get e*trade.

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and america's longest war will finally be over. >> a reminder there, that historically ending the war in afghanistan has been easier said than done. meanwhile, the defense department has identified two u.s. service members killed in afghanistan this week. 24-year-old specialist michael nance of chicago, 20-year-old private first class brandon kreischer of striker, ohio, who was roughly 2 years old on 9/11, boy, if that doesn't bring it home. welcome back to "morning joe," it is wednesday, july 31st. still with us, we have msnbc contributor, mike barnicle, white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire, and joining the conversation, national affairs analyst for nbc news, and msnbc john heilemann, and host of msnbc's politics nation and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton.

a great group to have. >> great group to have. mike barnicle, we're going to get to the debate in one second, but i do want to talk about afghanistan. it is so much easier said than done to say let's get out of afghanistan. i remember saying let's get out of iraq in 2010, 2011, let's get out of afghanistan. we got out of iraq and the chaos that was unleashed because with e g -- we got out the way wer did, it led to isis, which led to americans having to go back and trying to clean up the mess after russia and iran had gained a foothold in the region. we are far less safe today than we were then. i was wrong. so, i mean, how do we get to a point where, if we get out of afghanistan overnight, which again, i supported for quite some time, how do we make sure that it's not just like iraq, and could it be that maybe we have to understand that maybe

we're looking at a situation that we were looking at in the korean war n south korea or after world war ii in germany. maybe we need to have a small reduced presence there for quite some time. >> well, joe, that's probably the clear likelihood of what might happen. yesterday, mika just referenced it, two young men, members of the 82nd airborne killed in afghanistan, shot to death by afghan soldiers, by basically our allies. one of the keys to afghanistan is and always has been our relationship with pakistan. and we have continually messed that relationship up but the obvious thing that might happen is what you just referenced. we might have a residual force in afghanistan. i don't know, a thousand, 2,000 troops, maybe forever. but that war, our participation in it, has officially ended in one sense but is never ending in another sense as is made clear

yesterday by the bodies of two young man, being shipped back to dover, delaware. it's just never ending. >> it's such a tragedy, and the billions and billions of dollars that have been spent in afghanistan through the years. >> and stolen. >> spent and stolen. >> stolen, not only by the afghanistan government but also all the aide we gave musharf in pakistan didn't amount to much at all. i'm reminded and we'll get to the debate, this is the last comment but i'm reminded in 2004, i was flying out of pensacola, a special ops guy next to him. he was going to afghanistan, i asked him because already people were talking about how iraq was impacting afghanistan, and i said should we have sent those troops to afghanistan and he said, this is 2004, he goes, you can send all the troops you want to afghanistan, it won't make a difference. if you can put a hundred

thousand troops on the border in pakistan, that would make the difference, he goes, but this isn't a war between us and afghanistan, this is a war between us and afghanistan and pakistan, and it's hard to tell who our friends and who our allies are. it's a mess. that was in 2004, mike. it's still a mess today. >> and one of the unyielding and unending tragedies of afghanistan is these two young men yesterday are just the latest to die, obviously, but they are also the latest of the 1% of americans who actually, and families in america, who actually participate and serve in both iraq and aversifghanist now afghanistan, less than 1%. that war is not on anyone's screen other than the families who have relatives there, who have lost a relative there. that really in essence is not an american war because we are not fully involved as a nation. we are not sacrificing much, 99%

of us. the 1% are carrying the whole load. that's a tragedy. >> well, the theme of last night's debate was moderates against progressives and the candidates were pressed on whether the party's policies were moving too far left. take a look. >> i'm saying the policies of this notion that you're going to take private insurance away from 180 million americans who many of them don't want to get rid of it. many do want to get rid of it, many don't or the green new deal, make sure every american is guaranteed a government job. that is a disaster at the ballot box, you might as well fedex the election to donald trump. >> the american people want to have a living wage, a minimum wage, 15 bucks an hour, i have helped lead that effort. the american people want to pay reasonable prices for prescription drugs, not the highest prices in the world. >> again, i think if we're going to force americans to make these

radical changes, they're not going to go along. throw your hands up. >> i will. >> i can do it, but you don't have to implement the plans. us governors and mayors have to pick up the pieces, the government is supposed to take over the responsibilities, there's no preparation, you can't just spring a plan on the world and expect it to succeed. >> senator sanders. >> i was a mayor. i helped transform my community. i have some practical experience. and interesting enough, today is the anniversary of medicare. 54 years ago under lyndon johnson, and the democratic congress, please don't tell me in a four year period we cannot go from 65 to 45 to 35, this is not radical, this is what virtually every other country on earth want. >> in this discussion we have talked about taking private

health insurance away from union members in the industrial midwest. we have talked about decriminalizing the border and we've talked about giving free health care to undocumented workers when so many americans are struggling to pay for their health care, i quite frankly don't think that that is an agenda that we can move forward on and win. we've got to talk about the working class issues, the people that take a shower after work who haven't had a raise in 30 years. if we focus on that, we'll win the election. >> i know that we have to win back some of those places we lost, and get those trump voters back if we're ever going to win, but this isn't just a choice between the left and the center. it's not a choice just between these sort of wish list economics or thinking that we have to sacrifice our values to actually win. what folks want is a fair shot. the way i won, the way we can win is actually focus on the economy and democracy aren't working for most people. that's how i win. that's how we can take back the office. >> here's where we are, i get it, there is a lot at stake, and

people are scared. but we can't choose a candidate we don't believe in just because we're too scared to do anything else, and we can't ask other people to vote for a candidate we don't believe in. democrats win when we figure out what is right and we get out there and fight for it. i am not afraid, and for democrats to win, you can't be afraid either. >> so john heilemann, a fascinating debate last night. both the progressives and the center of the stage i thought performed admirally, ably and t moderates, john hickenlooper, steve bullock and tim ryan making sure the same mistakes that occurred in the first debate didn't occur in the second debate. i wonder if rahm emanuel's memo, david axelrod saying hold on, let's remain elected.

their warnings, i wonder if they didn't override maybe some of the pmoderate candidates concers about twitter, and other social media platforms that are far left of where most democrats are. >> let's hope so, joe, because anything that overrides twitter as a force in politics is probably for the best. i think that you're right in the sense, a couple of things helped in that regard: one thing was the candidates who insisted that they not be forced into these kind of arbitrary and dumb questioning scenarios where it's about a show of hands or a yes or no. that got ruled out of this debate, and i think those were some of the things that got people in trouble in the last debate, kind of forcing people to just be on one side or the other. i do think, though, if you are a person who is worried that the party is moving too far to the left, you would not be comforted by last night, in this sense. you know, i thought that elizabeth warren last night is continuing to be the most

consistent performer in the entire field. she's just, you know, she's incredibly disciplined, the message she has, she's driving it every single day. she emerged from that debate utterly unscathed and bernie sanders performed, i think you noted this, bernd caie sanders out strong, did much better than the previous debate. you have the dominant forces, are still sanders and warren. the moderates acquitted themselves fine. there was an attempt by at various points all of them to sort of go after warren and sanders together, and i just don't think they made very much headway because sanders and warren were compelling in defending their point of view. i don't think there's anybody on that stage who as a pure political athlete is better than either bernie sanders or elizabeth warren and so you have the sense that there was a lot of sort of attempts to kind of take on the left by the center, and to not very much effect, and i don't think many of those

moderates looked back on last night and felt like they had a breakout performance in this debate. the only person who was an unexpected person who has a real break out performance, and problematic in various ways is marianne williamson. >> i agree. again, i'm speaking as a former republican who is trying to figure out who beats donald trump, but i completely agree with you, john, that if you just look at who the political athletes were last night on the stage, it was bernie sanders who i will say again, had a horrible first debate. he might as well have just stamped 2016 on his forehead when he was talking. last night he came out of the gate strong, and was very compelling. they both, elizabeth warren, two for two. two great debates. i personally, again, take it for what it's worth because it's coming from a former republican, i'm concerned that some of their

policies are too far left to get 270 electoral votes but you're exactly right, the political athletes on the stage last night were in the center and they did a great job. speaking to their people. >> yeah, and i think, look, if you think about, i was a little surprised to be honest with you, joe, in one sense that for some of those -- of the again, centrists/moderates who are staring down the barrel of not qualifying for the third debate, there was a lot of discussion going in that those people were going to have to go for broke in this debate, i don't think it makes sense to set yourself on fire or set your hair on fire, i was a little surprised in some sense that some of them didn't try to do a little more than they tried to do on stage. i mean, in various cases they kind of took one shot. delaney took a number of shots obviously, but some of the others kind of took a shot at warren and sanders who sort of were, i heard chris matthews say they were like butch and sun

dance, they did not fight between themselves, they kind of teamed up to fend off the moderates and i didn't see anybody sort of swinging for the fences in a way that suggested the direness of their circumstances, and like i said, i don't think you come out of this debate saying, boy, you know, tim ryan now is suddenly on his way to double digits. no disrespect to tim ryan, you don't look at that and say, man, somebody really made a move. people like buttigieg, beto o'rourke, same thing, did not suddenly have the kind of performance that i think a lot of his donors and his fans were looking for, that kind of moment that he really came alive. >> you know, rev, you have been up on the debate stage as president, even in my little race for congress, i never ran. i had like eleven people to run against, i never once mentioned any of their names. i was running against bill clinton, somebody tried to drag me into their squabbles, i just kept talking about bill clinton.

wouldn't it make sense to you that, i mean, if you're on that debate stage tonight, and they want you to like pick a fight with somebody else up there, doesn't it make sense to stay focused, keep your focused, keep your rhetorical sights aimed on donald trump at all times. they can say, what do you think about joe biden's this, what do you think about senator harris's that, you just go, you know what, okay, listen, we can have our little squabbles here, but let me tell you what donald trump did this week, and talk about the racism, the attacks on elijah cummings, the attack on baltimore, setting this country on the edge of a racial split. >> i think you're exactly right. when you look at the fact that the ultimate goal of the democrats is to defeat trump, not only should you project that because that is the best debate posture, you want to put in the psyche of america, i'm the one against trump. forget these other people.

it's me against trump. and the more you can sell that, the more voters may see and put you in that position. i think the real reason last night that elizabeth warren and even bernie sanders came off very well is that people saw, wait a minute, they can get on the stage and take trump on. by them being able to, in a very rational and passionate way defend their policies whether you consider it too far left or not, gave america the opportunity to say, they can go hand in hand with donald trump in combat, not lose their composure skp composure and answer in a policy manner and that's what's important. these are preliminaries no matter how entertaining they are, you've got to use this to show the world you're ready for the main bout, if in fact, you are. >> and by the way, if i'm a democrat sitting in the chair or i'm an independent sitting

asking this question, it's not who can out debate kamala, who can outdebate biden, i'm thinking one thing, who can take it to donald trump. that's the issue, so democrats, talk about donald trump tonight. swat away questions that want to have you fighting other members of the democratic party because you're not going to make that much of a gain there anyway. and do what's needed. go after donald trump. that's what democrats want to know, who can beat this guy. >> that is correct. >> former political writer, ron, thank you so much for being with us, ron. you know, i read in the news donald trump distracts so much, obviously. i really wish we didn't have to chase all the racist comments and everything else. we just have to, but while he's doing that, there is a transmission plant in mccomb county michigan that's getting shut down that donald trump

promised to keep open. talk about what democrats should focus on tonight and talk about where donald trump stands in the state of michigan right now with plant closings continuing. >> they might want to start with the fact that detroit is a majority african-american city, 85%, 80% african-american, a city where 47% of kids are living below the poverty line, a city where black ownership was 51% in 2000, it's now down to about 41%. a city that has come back in a lot of ways in the last ten years but is still really hurting, especially among voters who need to come out and support the democratic candidate, especially among voters who didn't come out for hillary rodham clinton. donald trump talks about how great he is for the blacks and my black, that is a place in detroit where donald trump is obviously ignoring and that democrats could take a huge advantage of. at the same time, you're talking about things like universal

health care and government run health care, and legalizing illegal border crossings, that's the kind of thing that's going to hurt democrats in a place like mccomb county, in a place that swings back and forth between change candidates and is certainly not a hard left county. they voted for obama twice. >> i'm glad you said that. excuse me just one second, i want you as a detroit guy to expand on that because this election is going to be won or lost in wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and florida. what does a voter in mccomb county that voted for barack obama in 2008, 2012, but then donald trump in 2016, think when he's watching some of these candidates say you know what, if somebody krcrosses our southern border illegally, not only are we going to give them health care for life, we're also going to give them a free college education. let's get real for one second

politically, what does that do in those obama trump districts? >> it makes the ability for someone like donald trump to dog whistle to them much easier. same thing when you're talking about government run health care. people from mccomb country, they know canada's health care system is no panacea. you may be able to get out of the hospital and not have big health care bills but you have a hard time getting in the hospital. these are people struggling with the economic and technological and demographic change in the last three decades and what they are looking for, joe, and you know this, looking for it in 92 t 2000, in 2004 and 2012, and they were looking for it again in 2016, and that is change. that is big disruptive change to the political system. which is why i see someone like mayor pete buttigieg yesterday, who although he is a progressive, trying to find that middle lane, that connective tissue between the moderates and liberals as a generational clang

agent, that's the kind of message that could play in mccomb county, as it did before with obama and clinton. >> you talk about latté liberals, talking about the issues brought forward, where do you see the democratic party right now, sort of the rank and files versus what you call the latté liberals and who wins that battle in the end? >> i think the rank and file want to see what is workable. they want to see the country move away from the extremes on both sides because they have seen the extreme bizarre behavior of donald trump but you also do not want to go over the cliff, and i think where we are now is when you look at health care, clearly last night sitting in that audience, i could sense people saying yes, we need to have health care for everyone but we need to respect the fact

that people do not want to, in the majority of this country, give up what they already have in terms of private insurance if that works. we want to see us deal with the fact that there is racism and division, but we don't want to be extreme to promise things that we cannot really provide and we don't want to become the polar opposite of trump where he's all the way over here and we're all the way over here. i think people are a lot more logical and sensible than a lot of the people that are just on either extremes give them credit for, and those that can thread that needle, that can deal with the passion and outrage that people have as a result of trump, but at the same time come in with practical, achievable things, i think will be the ones that can win the nomination, and win next november in the general election. but you can't fool the people. they have been promised things before that never came through.

they know what that feels like. >> amen. >> reverend al, thank you very much, we'll see you again tomorrow morning after tonight's round two of the democratic debates. still ahead on "morning joe," mayor pete buttigieg not only addressed democratic voters in last night's democratic debate, he also sent a message directly to any republican lawmakers watching at home. mayor buttigieg joins us next on "morning joe." us next on "morning joe." >> tech: at safelite autoglass, we really pride ourselves on making it easy for you to get your windshield fixed. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... she chose safelite. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time...

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do, they're going to say we're a bunch of crazy socialists. let's stand up for the right policy, and go out and defend it, that's the right policy i'm putting forward, not because it's the right triangulation, but because i think it's the right answer. >> trump campaign adviser, mercedes slap, yes, pete buttigieg, you all are crazy socialists. >> lowest expectations, let's bring in mayor pete right now. mayor pete, how do you think the debate went last night, more specifically, here's the toughest question of the day for you, how do you think you did? >> so it was a terrific debate. and a great opportunity for me to talk about what's at stake in the election. not just some kind of ideological battle but how are we going to transcend the same argument that has been happening for my whole adult life and breakthrough and get to something new to actually tackle things like climate and health

care and systemic racism in this country before it's too late. i'm convinced that we are coming up on the horizon of no return and we got to have the right sense of urgency, i appreciated the chance to lay out our plans and to talk about what's at stake. >> so obviously a big debate between the moderate faction of the democratic party last night. m mercedes schlapp, people like hickenlooper, and bullock, and ryan, who were moderate conservatives on a lot of issues. just for helpfulness, i know no politician likes labels but where do you think you stand on that spectrum between elizabeth warren on one side and tim ryan on the other? >> look, i view myself as progressive, but i think that response out of trump world was pretty revealing, right, most of what we stand for, the american people stand with us, whether it's the idea that we ought to have universal health care or the fact that the minimum wage

ought to be higher or what we think ought to happen around gun control. if we are crazy socialists then they're saying the american people are a bunch of crazy socialists. it's time to put those labels to bed, talk about what we're actually going to do for the american people and when we do, it turns out, voters are with us. which is exactly why the president needs us to be talking about his latest outrage, rather than about the impact we're going to have on your life when we get elected instead of allowing these folks to continue running the country for the benefit of themselves and their friends. >> john is with us and has a question. >> i want to ask you a question about the debates themselves and something i think is going to start to be an issue and i want to get your feelings about it. there's the next set of debates which you are almost certain to qualify for, i believe, or have already qualified for, the ones in september. the lot of people are going to get excluded from that debate stage as the qualifications get tighter, and i think there's going to be a debate in the party whether that's an

appropriate role for the democratic party, an artificial winnowing of the rules, what the whole nomination process used to do in every election in the past, so do you think it's u useful and appropriate for the party to be setting up arbitrary metrics and ruling people out or should the market in some sense rule the day here and let everybody up on stage until people drop out of their own free will? >> well, i imagine between now and the next debate, there will be some of that natural winnowing if candidates haven't gotten traction, if they're not able to pull the resources together, they may continue to move on and decide to do other things. it is challenging, right, to have 20 candidates spread across d two nights, we have to begin consolidating the conversation. fundamentally, it's up to us as candidates to do something that cuts through the clutter. if you have the right message, represent the right kind of messenger, you can do that. we have been able to cut through

a very competitive field, and it's obviously not based on having had a lot of fame or dollars on day one, it's when you come out of the gate and you have something to say that's compelling, you can build that support base that you need, in order to last through all of these different cuts that are going to happen, whether they're created by the party or whether it's just political nature taking its course. as we get toward the end of the year, and the handful of candidates who are really going to go to the hat and compete in early states like iowa. >> mr. mayor, we opened this door discussing the two young men who were killed in afghanistan over the last couple of days. you obviously served in the military as wellment last night you -- well. last night you committed to withdrawing forces from afghanistan in the first year of office. can you walk us through what that looks like, entirely no force whatsoever, and what sort of vacuum may you be leaving behind? >> look, as we would in any country to keep the homeland safe, we'll retain whatever intelligence and special operations capabilities we need,

but the bottom line is the end of my first year as president represents the 20th year since 9/11, and if we can't wrap up our commitment of ground troops in afghanistan by then, then it truly has become a forever war. we're now at the point where you can be old enough to enlist and not have been alive on 9/11, and we do not have the strategic gains to show for it. we need to maintain the ability to defend the homeland from threats anywhere around the world and that's why we have the military that we do. but you can't just throw it around to meet undefined mission objectives and the problem in afghanistan, among others is that we can't seem to decide what the purpose of being there is. i think problems like that continue to arise, as long as we have these open ended authorizations for the use of military force. it's why i proposed that we have a three year sunset, anytime there is one of those congressional authorizations so if there really is a compelling,

inevitable reason to keep american troops at scale on the ground, the president's got to go back to congress and sell it. explain what the mission is, and i think when that process happens, when members of congress have to take tough votes, when a president has to explain the rationale for being on the ground, suddenly it all becomes a lot clearer and we don't find ourselves in these situations where we're just in a never ending commitment where it's not even clear what we're trying to get out of it. >> ron is in detroit and has a question for you. >> just a follow up on that question. one of the young men who the pentagon announced was killed in afghanistan, was brandon of striker, ohio. he was 20 years old, which means he was 2 years old when the nation was attacked. if you were president and you were to call the family and his mother asked you, what did my son die for, what would your answer be?

>> this is the conversation no president wants to have. look, these are men and women who serve honorably, who make that decision to enter into an agreement with the united states to put your life on the line to defend us. right now, there are people packing their bags to get ready to go over wondering why exactly am i here. we know how we got in. the united states was attacked, but is our mission over there complete peace and prosperity in aversion, is o afghanistan, is our mission to see the kind of economic development that we would expect in a western country, is the mission there to have a western style government. that's not going to happen. our mission has to be to keep the american homeland safe and by that standard, by that higher standard, we will be avoiding new con flkflicts. >> pete buttigieg, the american dilemma of race is with us today as prominent as it has ever been. you're the mayor of a city.

sometimes divided by race with the police involved shootings, items like that, it sits in the american living room, race does, like a keg of dynamite off to the side, waiting for a single spark to ignite it again and again and again. my question is how dangerous is donald trump to igniting that thing, really igniting it. >> extremely dangerous. look, this has been a problem since the founding of the republic. if you think about it, the one thing that came closest to ending the american project was white supremacy that led us to the civil war, and it is still an enormous problem of course for those who are discriminated against as a consequence of systemic racism and for the entire country as a whole. if there's any virtue in the moment bleak as it is when it comes to race, i suppose is the fact that we can no longer pretend, and frankly a lot of

white progressives can no longer be comfortable in the belief that we have beaten back some of this naked racism that has come back to the surface, precisely because it was never gone in the first place, and having wrestled with these issues on the ground, as a mayor of a diverse community, i see why it is so important that we take this on systematically. i was glad to have a chance to share a little bit last night about our douglass plan that tackles systemic racism against housing, employment, education, access to capital for entrepreneurship, criminal justice reform. if you are a black american, you are living in a different america on all of these dimensions, and we will not have actually resolved this issue until we come to the day when your race has absolutely no bearing in predicting your life expectancy, predicting your wealth or your income, predicting how you are going to interact with law enforcement, until we're there, america's got a problem and we have to stop talking about this like this is

just a specialty issue to be discussed with audiences of color. this is something that diminishes the entire country. >> all right. mayor pete buttigieg, thank you very much for coming on. come back. it's always great to have you on. joining us now, we have former u.s. senator claire mccaskill who has joined the team of course, and claire, you and i are both fans of mayor pete. what's it going to take to have him breakthrough and in some of the demographics where i think he struggles because he's such a solid strong candidate, and i hope he's listening to me. >> well, i think he had a good night last night. i think he is making progress. his douglass plan is strong. clearly he is lagging with african-american voters right now. very hard to get the democratic nomination if you don't do better than he's doing right now with those voters. i will say one of the things he's done that i think is remarkable and important and i hope other candidates pay

attention, and that is using his faith to support the values he is going after in this campaign. i thought not only was his moment strong when he looked at the camera and challenged my former republican colleagues to get a spine, and, you know, pay attention to how history is going to judge them, but when he talked about minimum wage in the context of the scripture. and when he talked about, you know, not recognizing that a living wage is something that is embodied in christianity, i thought that was -- he's done this a number of times in the campaign, it's sometimes startling for democratic voters because we're not used to canneds using their faith -- candidates using their faith but it's terrific. >> claire, somebody that's won a very red state a couple of times, i'm curious what you thought about the divide between the more progressive wing of the democratic party represented by sanders and warren in the

middle, and the conservatives that were out to the sides. when they start talking about medicare for all, taking away private health insurance, start talking about giving people that cross the border illegally free health care for life, and you know, other things, other benefits, how does that play in red states where democrats, if they want to take the senate away from mitch mcconnell, moscow mitch as some people are calling him now, how does that get in the way of that goal? >> well, as i said last night, late last night, i think in my state, and states like it across the country, and those are some states that the nominee has to win, when they hear free stuff, they hear free stuff but not for me. they hear somebody else is getting free stuff. once again, i'm working my you know what off and i can't get

ahead, i can't afford to retire, and then there's this group of people over here getting stuff for free, particularly enraging if it's someone who doesn't have legal documentation to be in this country. i will say this, everybody has to remember that the candidates on the stage agree on a lot of important fundamentals. cheaper health care, more health care, immigration reform, you know, figuring out a way to do more manufacturing, the list goes on and on, but what last night did, which i think is very important, i think it reminded voters who hadn't really thought about it that bernie sanders and elizabeth warren's health care plan means no choices. you get what the government is going to give you. so if you want to keep your insurance at work, if your employer wants to provide that benefit as an incentive, if you like your coverage at work, you've got no choice, and i thought congressman ryan particularly did a good job talking about the union members who have given up wages year after year to have these

terrific plans and we're going to say to them, never mind, you're going to get what the government says you can have. i think that contrast on health care, and look for tonight, kamala to talk about her plan where she now is firmly embracing choice, that americans should have a choice if they want to stay with an employer based program or they want to go with a public option buying government insurance. >> so ron, you're in detroit, orv obviously one of the most important swing states, what is michigan looking for tonight as they watch the democratic debate. >> probably like most of us, they're watching biden, what the big deal is about, why he's riding so high in the polls is he really up to the job, is he somebody who can take on donald trump or are throuere newer fac fresher faces with practical change messages that could help their lives.

>> all right. ron, thank you very much for being on this morning and coming up, montana governor steve bullock says the progressives in his party are making it harder for democrats to beat donald trump. he joins us next on "morning joe." joins us next on "morning joe.

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here's how it's gyou're my sidekick. ain't nobody's sidekick. hey boys. the fate of the world is in your hands and you can't even get along. pretty disappointed right now. you want a sidekick? i'm gonna find you one. see that guy over there? he's too big. look at you two. bickering like a couple of old ladies.

woo! at the end of the day, i'm not going to support any plan that rips away quality health care from individuals. this is an example of wish list economics. it used to just be republicans who wanted to repeal and replace. now many democrats do as well. >> joining us now, democratic presidential candidate and chair of the national governor's association, governor steve bullock of montana. very good to have you on the show, governor. great job last night. i want to ask you about the democratic party overall, and the candidates that you were sharing ideas with yesterday in debating. is there a concern, do you have that concern that the issues that you all have platforms on will be not appealing to a broad spectrum of the american voters

which of course might end up to a second term for donald trump? >> well, yeah, and thanks for having me this morning, mika. as the only one actually that won a trump state, i have the concern if we're not speaking in ways that actually connect with people's lives. as i talk about wish list economics, we shouldn't have to be choosing between what we don't want and what we can't afford, meaning that, look, we can make progress on health care, we can make progress on college affordability, we can make progress in so many ways without just these trillion dollar plans that are mostly written for press releases. >> john heilemann. >> hey, governor, i'm running into your guys, welcome to the debate stanl lage last night. i ran into your guys afterwards and the folks that work for you, and there's a fair amount of tension and drama. are you going to get to be back

on the debate stage again in september, which raises the question i want to ask which is not just about you but about a bunch of people who are in danger of being excluded from these forums going forward. i know you have raised some complaints about that in the past but i really am having a hard time understanding why for the first time in my lifetime covering presidential politics the democratic party has decided to impose these arbitrary qualification metrics that may reduce the field to, you know, six or seven or eight people effectively just a couple months from now. do you think that's the right thing to do? >> i don't, john. i think that, you know, what we've always done is actually the voters are the ones that winnowed down the big field. i have been so pleased. i have only been in this for eight weeks now, seven trips to iowa during that time, attorney general tom miller, john bauer, others on board. this really needs to be a robust discussion because we've got to beat donald trump, and we've got

to have a candidate that can wen not just on the coast but all across this country and it shouldn't be rules or others that winnow down that field, it should be voters. >> governor, it's jonathan lemire, you made your big pitch here the you about win a trump state. and on a number of issues you disagree with some of your democratic candidates, whether that is on the green new deal or on medicare for all or on the idea of some of yothe immigrati policies. my question is this. considering those stances but also considering where the poll numbers are, are you out of step right now with the democratic party? you're making the case to beat donald trump, but don't you have to get there first? >> well, you do, and only being in eight weeks, because my legislature was still in session, it meets 90 days every two years, needed to get medicaid expansion reauthorized, so saving health care for 100,000 people.

but as i'm out traveling, what i hear is people want us to talk about the challenges of folks' everyday lives economically, that they're not getting better under this administration. look, we all ought to be talking about, as we talk about immigration. the biggest problem right now with immigration, it's actually donald trump, because he's dividing both families and our country. so there's ways to do this. i'm a populist, pro-choice, pro-union democrat that's won three times in a red state. and i've done that by not compromising the values of our party, but we shouldn't have to be choosing, really, as i said, between what we don't want and what we can't afford. what we want to do is move this country forward, and that's what i hear from folks when i'm out on the stump. >> governor bullock, i think you've just hit upon something i think you need to make sure people know, and that is you do -- you have a very progressive set of lists of things you want to get done. i think sometimes people confuse

someone who wants to be pragmatic with someone who is a conservative, small c. i think you are someone who does have a few days as a progressive. let's talk a little about the trade war. you are also unique, you and mayor pete, in terms of coming to a state where agriculture is so important. the folks out in rural america have supported donald trump in an unprecedented fashion. they are also getting kicked in the gut in this tariff war. could you speak to that a little bit and how we can make trade fair but not give such a short shrift to the farmers in this country? >> i was in rippey, iowa when a sixth generation farmer said, i don't know if i want my son to follow me and become the seventh. right now we're in this place where, what donald trump has done, he thinks that the tariffs will just be the cure-all for

everything. i don't think america first becomes america alone. what we're seeing both in iowa, what i'm seeing in montana, is it's got to be more than a blunt instrument of tariffs, because right now folks are losing money when they're planting crops. any payments from washington, d.c., from the u.s. department of agriculture, isn't going to make up for that loss of market shares. you can always -- we need to make sure that we open enough markets to have fair and competitive opportunities, but you can't do this alone. >> governor, we live in a nation where mass shootings never make the front page unless the shooter racks up 10, 12 or above. what's your position on a flat-out ban of the manufacture and sale of assault weapons for civilians? >> yeah, and it is. i'm tired of lowering the flags. a fourth of the time i've been asked to lower the flags under this president and president obama were for mass shootings.

i'm tired of the fact that my sixth grader's first week of school had to learn where to go in case of a mass shooting. chains like walmart and dick's, they've already stopped selling assault weapons, and i think as a country, we should as well. they're not used for hunting, they're not used for self-defense. >> so manufacture and sale of assault weapons for civilians, you're for that? to ban it. to ban the manufacture -- >> yeah. >> -- and sale of an assault weapon to civilians. you're for it. >> i am. and i'm not unique in this. i mean, when you look at some of the major sporting good chains that say, we're no longer even going to sell these things, if we could ever just look at this, as i noted, as a public health issue and not a political issue. as a gun owner as i am, i think that there are reasonable steps that we can take to keep our

communities and families safe, but what you have -- when i was growing up, the nra was a gun safety and hunting organization. now it's nothing more than a dark money, foreign money organization that's used to try to divide our country. we've got to be able to take steps to keep our kids and our families safer, and gun owners and non-gun owners alike agree on that. >> all right. governor steve bullock, thank you very much. obviously we have to have you back because this conversation needs more time. we appreciate your coming on the show this morning. congratulations for last night. we still have two more candidates to talk to this morning, congressman tim ryan and senator amy klobuchar join the conversation. plus, we'll continue to look ahead to tonight's debate as the candidates search for a breakout moment against joe biden. "morning joe" is back in just a moment. a moment choosing my car insurance was the easiest decision ever.

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there was no hesitation, i went straight to ctca. after my mastectomy, it was maddening because i felt part of my identity was being taken away. when you're able to restore what cancer's taken away, you see that transformation firsthand knowing that she had options that she could choose, helped restore hope. my team made me feel like a whole person again. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. i don't understand why anybody goes to all the trouble of running for president of the united states just to talk about what we really can't do and shouldn't fight for. [ cheers and applause ] >> our biggest problem in washington is corruption. it is giant corporations that have taken our government and that are holding it by the

throat. and we need to have the courage to fight back against that, and until we're ready to do that, it's just more of the same. well, i'm ready to get in this fight, i'm ready to win this fight. >> a snapshot of last night's democratic debate where the progressive wing of the party is literally center stage. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, july 31st. along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle, lemire, and lapice. >> i thought they were flagged in the wings by some moderates. it was a great give and take. any donald trump supporter that saw this debate stage might not

have as many easy targets moving forward as they did after the last round of democratic debates because you actually had some more moderate candidates actually suggesting more of a practical approach, let's say, than an overly utopian approach. i think a lot of americans would think when you're talking about giving health care to illegal immigrants, when you talk about giving health care to someone who crosses the border, i think americans would be against it and think it was utopia. >> first of all, i thought the debate was really well run, they got a lot in there, a lot of conversations. i can't wait until we get down to smaller numbers so the conversations can be drawn out more. it's a little frustrating when they kept having to move on. who do you think had the standout nights? there were a few candidates who had really great moments. >> i think miami set up detroit and detroit was a reaction to

what happened in miami. so you had, of all people, john delaney was sort of the lead-off guy posed as the moderate to go after elizabeth warren's plans, to go after bernie sanders' plans. then john hickenlooper got in, steve bullock, he got in talking about economics. this was the pushback of moderates against elizabeth warren and bernie sanders and a pushback over some of the concerns the moderates have over the direction of this party and the direction this primary is heading. we'll see if we see more of that tonight. >> what's interesting, mike barnacle, is you did have that give and take, you did have the back and forth, and i think a lot of people have -- i can't say they've forgotten, but perhaps it's been pushed to the back of their mind, and maybe we remember it because we talked about it every day, it seemed like, for two years, the battle over obamacare. >> uh-huh. >> and the fight, the struggle

just to get it to where it was. i think they ended up with 50 votes and the vice president had to break that vote. but it was the toughest battle democrats lost. let's think about this. over the next six years, democrats lost a thousand legislative seats across the nation after obamacare passed. in part because of the political fight the democrats put up with. as george bush once said, it's hard. and when he was throwing around promises, they sounded an awful lot like donald trump's promises for universal health care. very easy to make promises on the campaign stage. elizabeth warren said, the worst problem we have in washington, d.c. is corruption. i would say americans probably think the worst problem we have in washington, d.c. over the past 20, 25 years are broken promises. and god bless elizabeth warren

and bernie if they can follow through with what they say, but i wouldn't condemn people for trying to figure out what can we do? what promises can we deliver? because again, i hate to keep going on and on about this, but, man, obamacare was a fight to the political death, and for people to now go, oh, that didn't go far enough. let's do ten times the amount of work, it's not realistic, i don't think. >> joe, that gets to the point of the biggest winner last night, and i think a lot of people would think that the biggest winner last night was substance. because they actually discussed health care legislation in some detail. elizabeth warren, she has a grasp of details that she manages to articulate in very short bites, 30 and 60-second bites that resonate, i think, with people. as far as the biggest problem in washington, i think it was going to revert to what's going to happen tonight. i think a lot of people, especially democrats watching

these debates, to them the biggest problem in washington is donald trump. and i think that's where it will go tonight. i think last night there was several people on that stage last night who will disappear from the national stage, but the debate last night, once it got going after about 20 minutes, it was pretty good. it was pretty educational. a lot of substance. that was kind of impressive. >> well, let's go through it, mika. >> right off the bat it was a clash of ideas against lower candidates urging potential change, and elizabeth warren and bernie sanders advocating for a systemwide overhaul. here are some of the opening statements. >> folks, we have a choice. we can go down the road that senator sanders and senator warren want to take us, which is with bad policies like medicare for all, free everything, and impossible promises that will turn off independent voters and get trump reelected.

>> last year democrats flipped 40 republican seats in the house and not one of those 40 democrats supported the policies of our frontrunners at center stage. >> that teacher working a second job just to afford her insulin, they can't wait for revolution. >> this isn't about left or right. this is about new and better. i will offer solutions that are bold, that are realistic. >> you are going to hear a lot of promises up here, but i'm going to tell you this. yes, i have bold ideas, but they are grounded in reality. >> our problems didn't start with donald trump. donald trump is part of a corrupt, rigged system that has helped the wealthy and the well-connected and kicked dirt in the faces of everyone else. we're not going to solve the urgent problems that we face with small ideas and spinelessness. we're going to solve them by being the democratic party of

big structural change. >> by the way, willie, there is no doubt that you had elizabeth warren and bernie sanders on fire last night, and for a primary, for a debate, that is what you want to do. i'm talking about the mundane mechanics of washington, d.c. but, boy, they were on fire last night. >> yeah, there's no question about it. i follow up with what mike said and what you were saying earlier, this was a substantive debate. whether or not you agreed with what all these candidates were saying, they were articulate, they were well versed, they're fluent in their policy, and elizabeth warren, you may not agree with her ideas, but boy, does she know them. and john delaney, you may think as a progressive, he doesn't go too far, he may pull back from his ideas. i think it's worth pausing in the last couple years that had been pretty bereft of policy discussion, it was great to hear

that on stage, jonathan lemire. it was great to hear a sort of push and pull. rob emanuel put out a memo yesterday urging the people on stage not to lose to donald trump. back and forth with elizabeth warren kind of pushing her on her ideas. that was front and center. that sort of conversation in this party right now about how far left to go. >> that's exactly right. that's where that debate was last night, where the spirit and soul of the democratic party is right now, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, who both were on fire and had very good moments exchanged very little fire on each other. that was interesting. in a sense, they're competing for some of the same voters, but yet they didn't really interact with each other much at all. when they did, it was to agree. they took on fire from some of

the moderates, but they scored points. if it was with warren or sanders, you could hear it amplified from republicans down the road. i think the debate for medicare for all, of course, is one that's going to shape this democratic contest in the months ahead. i'm certain there will be more about it tonight. but what's also interesting is what didn't come up last night. talk about the federal judiciary in supreme court didn't come up last night. impeachment didn't come up last night. robert mueller, who dominated the news cycle last week, didn't come up last night. coming up, we'll hear from two more candidates from last night's debate, congressman tim ryan and senator amy klobuchar joins us straight ahead on "morning joe." straight ahead on "morning joe." great riches will find you when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance,

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the boys in the lab made me a new one. i'm black superman. black superman is good. very good. there's two of us and one of him. time to work as a team. [ screaming ] this is part of the dark

underbelly of american society. the racism, the bigotry and the entire conversation we're having here tonight. if you think any of this wonkiness is going to deal with this dark force of the recognized hatred this president is bringing up in this country, then i'm afraid that the democrats are going to see some very dark days. >> that is author and self-help guru mary ann williamson when asked about the crisis last night. she said the problem is deeper than donald trump. i'm surprised i'm going to say this, but actually she gave some of the best political advice any democrats could give, because we're sitting here -- again, it's a wonky discussion last night about medicare for all, mending obamacare -- very, very important, but that's not where voters are right now. voters are scared. they're scared of donald trump.

they see something happening to their country that they've never seen in their lifetime, and they don't -- they'll have some discussions, yes, tell me where you stand, but it is. it is a much bigger threat to this country, and i think americans want somebody up there -- ronald reagan was brilliant at it, bill clinton was brilliant doing it, barack obama the same. they want somebody that rises above brookings institute versus heritage foundation policy battle to talk about the bigger battle against racism, against bigotry, against all the things that donald trump has done to push this country to the edge. >> so, willie, i think she was kind of good. like right there, up there with the other candidates. >> honestly, she had some great moments. she was sort of the punchline from the first debate, but she's not going to dive deep into policy, that's not her thing, but as joe said, she taps into

the gut feeling about this election. there is the combination of the head and the gut and she's talking about the gut. i will point out she was the most searched google candidate yesterday. after the debate, in 49 of the 50 states, steve bullock was the most searched in montana, but in all 49 of the other states, it was mary ann williamson who people were most curious about after watching that. >> and i think if the reaction is similar to what we had, they're like, wait a minute, who is this lady? she's pretty good. searching her and where has she been all our lives? i'm not sure she'll make it to the top tier. having said that, she was impressive. >> it was critical, willie, of her being on the stage after the first debate. i don't think it's such a bad thing for the democratic party to have somebody who can go there out of ten candidates, out of 20 candidates, and just speak more generally about the challenges that are gripping the

country. so, again, she's -- i'll just say it, she's probably not going to go anywhere in any of the primary contests, but certainly i think she got the tone right when it came to what the battle lines really are. again, mike barnicle, we're not talking about the subsections of bernie sanders' medicare for all bill. that's not what americans want to hear about. they want to hear about how donald trump is a bigot, how donald trump is a racist, how donald trump has shattered constitutional norms, how donald trump is putting a dupe in for the most important position at ndi. he's got a bunch of sycophants around him that don't respect the president. that's what they want to hear. >> joe, bingo with a capital b on that. i'm going to tell you, the president of the united states is now in the position where he scares people. he scares average americans because they sense a portion of the country that they are familiar with, a portion of how

they live and what they've become familiar with is going down the drain because of him. yesterday quinnipiac poll in late 51% of most people polled think the president of the united states is a racist as opposed to 45% who say, no, he's not a racist. that is an astounding number. and if you extrapolate that, joe, out into the suburbs this fall or next fall, he's going to have real difficulty because you can't scare people. he has scared people. coming up on "morning joe." >> i've heard some of these candidates say that it's somehow not moral if you -- not moral to not have that public option. senator sanders was actually on a public option bill last year, and that was, bernie, the medicaid bill that senator

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can you guarantee those union members that the benefits of medicare for all will be as good as the benefits that their representatives, their union reps, fought hard to negotiate? >> two things. it will be better because medicare for all is kpre comprehensive and covers all health care needs for senior citizens. it will cover dental needs and eyeglasses. >> you don't know that. >> i do know because i wrote the damn bill. >> senator sanders does not know all contracts in the united states. i'm trying to explain these union members are losing their jobs, their wages have been stagnant, the world is crumbling around them. the only thing they have is possibly really good health care. and the democratic message is going to be, we're going to go in, and the only thing you have left, we're going to take it and

we're going to do better. i do not think that's a recipe for success for us. >> you know, i like bernie and i like elizabeth, but we're asked by people at nbc to tell the truth on what we think about things, so i'm going to tell the truth. >> okay. >> that's never-neverland, saying that medicare for all is going to be better than a lot of those union contracts and you're going to get full dental, full comprehensive -- no, it's not. it's just not. and the democratic party really needs to wake up. you can keep talking about that, but run this tape two years from now. those promises will be broken as much as donald trump's promises are broken, because again, as ron fournier said, living in detroit, people know in detroit that canada's health care system not a panacea. yes, you don't get billed when you get out of the hospital, but it's hard to get into the hospital sometimes. il

it's hard to get health care. mika and i have friends in canada who come to the united states to get health care and to get procedures. so it's just -- again, i think it's a good debate to have. i believe in universal health care coverage. but, man, it reminded me so much of the 2016 debates when donald trump would just say something and everybody would cheer and applaud. they were applauding at a utopia that's not going to exist in the united states of america, and yes, yes, twitter, america, that comes from a former republican congressman, but a former republican who wants donald trump to be beaten every bit as badly as we do. >> that's for sure. that was the exchange last night between senator bernie sanders and congressman tim ryan over the medicare for all bill. congressman ryan of ohio joins us now. >> congressman, thanks so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> i just have to ask, and

again, obviously, i think the democratic party should provide universal health care, but they need to provide choice as well to union members and other people, working class americans. what goes through your mind when you go on stage and bernie sanders says, we're going to give everybody everything, and it's going to be for free, and don't worry about those union contracts that union representatives have sweated and toiled and fought over for decades? >> i represent a lot of these people, joe, and it's not good. i'm just trying to let everybody know this could be a potential disaster for us. if our message isn't that we want to provide health care for everybody, it will be that we want to take good medical from people who have negotiated good health care. i can't tell you how many times

i've watched members give away wages in order to get really good health care because they know they need that security. and to go in as a party and say, we're going to take that away from you, is not good. let's focus on giving health care, getting health care affordable and accessible to people who don't have it. that should be the message, not taking it away. i think we lose 48 states, joe. i'm having a hard time figuring out what the two states are we're going to win if our lead message is we're going to confiscate health care from people. >> okay, tim, package that medicare for all to decriminalizing health care for undocumented workers. >> i don't think we should decriminalize. look, this has nothing to do with taking kids from their parents. obviously that's a disaster and we shouldn't be doing it. it's heartbreaking. we should secure the border. we should have a comprehensive path to citizenship. we should welcome people who are seeking asylum here in the

united states. we're a strong enough country to be compassionate. but at the same time you can't just wander into the united states without it being a criminal charge. i don't think that's that out of step with the vast majority of people in the country. >> i'm sorry, tim, but again, not only that, you come into the united states illegally and some people on the debate stage are saying you get health care for life, free health care for life, free education for life. i mean, free everything for life. i'm sorry. some people on twitter may not like to hear this. that ain't going to sell in youngstown, ohio, that ain't going to sell in mccomb, mississippi, and that ain't going to sell in wisconsin. >> you're talking to people who are struggling to make ends meet. they're barely keeping their nose above water. their health care is insecure, their wages are insecure, their job is insecure.

their pensions they worked their whole life for insecure in a vast majority of these places in the united states, and the message coming from our party is an undocumented person can get free health care. so this person who can barely make ends meet and struggles to pay health care works a second job, a second shift to pay health care for their family, they're hearing us say, well, the undocumented person should get it free. i think the undocumented person should get health care, too, but they should pay for it like everyone else does. i just don't think you can wander into the united states without it being a criminal charge. these are -- and i don't think we should confiscate people's health insurance. look, if you think what i'm saying makes sense, and this is the direction we need to go for the party, we need to start building support. go to timryanforamerica.com. you saw it last night, joe. i was talking about manufacturing. i was talking about the new jobs of the future and how do we get those in mccomb county, michigan and youngstown, ohio and the

textile communities in south carolina. new jobs, electric vehicles, chief manufacturing officer, building things again in the united states. that's got to be the message for us if we're going to beat donald trump because people are still living paycheck to paycheck. we're getting off on these issues that aren't resonating with the kitchen table issues that people are living with every single day. i think there is a huge disconnect that happened last night on the stage with what average people are dealing with and what the democratic party is talking about. i think it could be trouble for us. >> congressman, you represent -- go ahead. >> jonathan, i'm sorry. did he say that was timryan.com? >> timryanforamerica.com. timryanforamerica.com. >> timryanforamerica.com. i'm sorry, jonathan lemire, go ahead. >> joe, i know you're obsessed with your own web sites. it makes sense you want to

clarify at this point. >> i have a website? >> that's the rumor. congressman, you say he won last night and he did so on trade. the president is talking with china about trade and tariffs. you say you agree with some of the president's tariffs on china which may come as a surprise to people watching last night's debate and the show this morning. explain why. >> because china has been cheating us and cleaning our clock for a long time on trade agreements. they've been manipulating their currency for years. one of the first bills i was on 17 years ago was to stop china from manipulating their currency. they steal our intellectual property, they participate in industrial espionage, they subsidize goods coming into our country, putting workers and companies out of business here. so to say it frankly, they need

a punch in the mouth. you just can't keep doing that. i think donald trump did that. now, he's botched it since then. he hasn't done anything. but i do think we need to have a firmer position and then let's sit down at the table and negotiate how we fix this. he hasn't done any of that, so i support being firm with them, but he's got to have a bigger term strategy. as i said last night, china has a 20-year strategy, 30-year strategy, 100-year strategy, donald trump lives in a 24-hour news cycle. so be firm on it and get to the table and negotiate. you don't hang your farmers out to dry like we're doing now. farmers haven't made a profit in five years. >> you have to be smarter about it and have a bigger strategy to which the tariffs are a tactic. he's botched it and we have to do a better job with it because china is our number one competitor at this point. >> by the way, mika, speaking of farmers, most of donald trump's relief for farmers, so-called relief for farmers, as you know, went to the richest farm

conglomerations -- >> it's been -- >> rank and file farmers, average farmers got nothing out of donald trump's plan. by the way, when you have a president talking about a $16 billion farm payoff, that's called socialism in most countries. anyway, congressman, thank you for being with us. >> tim ryan, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thanks, mika and joe. take care. one more candidate to hear from this morning. senator amy klobuchar says democrats are more worried about winning an argument than winning an election. she joins us next on "morning joe." "morning joe. you try hard,

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everyone wants to getie lekd, but my point is this. when we ever a guy in the white house who has now told over 10,000 lies that we better be

very straightforward with the american people. and no, do i think we'll end up voting for a plan that kicks half of america off of their current insurance in four years? no, i don't think we're going to do that. i think there is a better way to get what we all want to see, which is lower cost for health care. do i think we're going to vote to give free college to the wealthiest kids? no, i don't think we're going to do that. that's what i'm talking about. but what i don't like about this argument right now, what i don't like about it at all is that we are more worried about winning an argument than winning an election. and i think how we win an election is to bring everyone with us. >> joining us now, democratic candidate for president, senator amy klobuchar of minnesota and former senator claire mccaskill has the first question. >> good morning, amy. i thought you did well last night. my question to you is, can you

take a minute and explain the reality of a 60-vote margin and what that means in terms of the values that we all embrace? more health care, immigration reform, infrastructure. talk about it in context of the reality of the numbers right now and what congress is capable of doing. >> see, this makes me wish, claire, that you were asking the questions last night as well. because we did need that reality because, in fact, that's what i was trying to say there, is you have to make sure you can get things done or you're going to be overpromising people. and the reality is that even if we take back the senate, right, which i want us to do and i think we can do, and the presidency, and we keep the house, we're still going to have to get some more conservative democrats on board as well as some moderate republicans to vote with us to get things done. and so that's my argument. this doesn't mean that you don't

have bold plans, because i think, claire, you know that a lot of republicans are ready to move on immigration reform. they wanted to do it in 2013. a lot of republicans wanted to move on infrastructure. they're getting the same kind of calls about prescription drugs. i actually think we could have this amazing year moving forward, but we have to first of all win, and then second of all, govern. and that's the point i'm making, and it concerns me with some of these proposals that i don't think are ever going to be able to pass. >> so explain why the 60-vote margin was our friend when the republicans had the house, the senate and the white house. i think people forget some of the crazy town stuff that was blocked by that 60-vote margin. >> exactly. >> people forget the door swings both ways. i've talked to a lot of progressives who say, get rid of the 60-vote margin. then if the worm turns, we are looking at serious inroads to a woman's right to choose and a

whole host of other issues. talk about that for a minute. >> sure. the 60-vote margin, of course, allows the minority power, whatever party doesn't have power, to have power. you have to get to 60 votes to get things done. in this case, what was going on before, we took back the house. the senate was able to stop a lot of things donald trump has wanted to do over the years. it would have been very devastating to our environment and to the world around us, to women's health care. when i get in there, and i do want to win this and lead this ticket because i believe i'll win big in the midwest and places like i'm in today, michigan, i think you could use it as leverage if we take back the senate, and those guys aren't playing ball, which i think they will. they will have to because things have been sitting where nothing is happening on so many important fronts. you can always use it as leverage to say, look, i'm going to make changes to it, but of course the democrats and the senate would have to make that decision. but to just say we're going to

get rid of it right now and mitch mcconnell is running the place and won't let us advance on issues i raised last night, sensible background checks for guns, won't let us go forward on climate change, won't let us go forward on protecting our elections from russian interference, my bill, it's time -- you know, we've got to be honest that we've got to be able to use the tools that we have. >> investigators looking at simple homicides look at motive. i know you probably have friends that voted for donald trump in 2016. so my question to you is what do you think the motive was for people who voted for donald trump in 2016, and how can you, as a democratic candidate for president potentially running against him, get to that motive and change their mind? >> exactly. there were a mix of motives. i had a question similar to this

last night related to racism. and i made clear there is systemic racism in our system, that donald trump himself, especially with what you've seen this last weekend about baltimore, is a racist, puts out racist remarks every day, and that did motivate some of the people that voted for him. but then there was another group that was simply looking for a change in the economy. they wanted something that helped them, and the case that i would make to them is, really, has he delivered on his promises? when you go home and see those pharmaceutical bills and he's on tv boasting about what he's done, yet you see those prices go up and up, he hasn't delivered for you. or when you're in a traffic jam and you can't get your world broadband despite his promise on election night, he hasn't delivered for you. so we have to make the case for those farmers like he's treated as one of his poker chips in one of his casinos, we have to make

a case for him that this hasn't succeeded and we have an optimistic agenda that will include them. >> senator, explain what's going on with mitch mcconnell and russia, because we've had the intel chiefs, we've even had berman saying russia tried to interfere in american democracy in all 50 states. you have trump's picks for the fbi, the cia, the director of national intelligence, the united states military intelligence. kirsten nielseknee -- jirs -- k nielsen, everybody said he tried to interrupt american democracy, they're doing it now. why is mitch mcconnell blocking every bail like yours and others that are trying to protect america from a russian invasion

of our election process? >> i can tell you clearly because he's putting his party first instead of our democracy. i don't think this is the patriotic thing to do. he has personally always liked to get involved in these election issues. by the way, when i asked about this at a classified briefing just a few weeks ago pto all th intelligence chiefs, i can't reveal what was said there, but i will tell you this. when i asked, he literally tried to shut me down and said that's a campaign finance issue in front of the whole senate. i'm like, no, it's not. it's a security issue for our country. and as i pointed out last night, hundreds of thousands -- >> senator, you can go back to 2016. the intel chiefs came to the preside president, to the senate and house and said therefore trying to undermine it. mitch mcconnell actually threatened everybody there, that if they said anything publicly,

he would try to turn the issue. so, again, tell us because i don't know why anybody from kentucky -- >> let my explain -- >> -- are for a guy that's trying to stop. >> i will tell you why i think he's doing t. totally in line with the president. we have 11 states that don't have backup paper ballots or don't have paper ballots, only partial. so imagine what would happen if we had a close presidential race, swing state, it's a mess. they get hacked into. we won't even be able to tell what the result is. that's the first thing. the second is just as insidious and that's the bill we talked about before, which would basically say to the social media companies, you've got to tell us what you're paying for these ads and what they are, all you big platforms, not just a few. that's where all the dark money is going, not just russian money, but dark money to divide people on issues. he doesn't like that bill at all because they want to use it to

run a bunch of dark, dirty ads on people's facebook pages like the one that showed an african-american woman during 2016 who said, hey, don't stand in line, you can text to vote for hillary at 83124. that was a crime. those were the kinds of ads showing up on people's pages. he has stopped those bills in their tracks. in the case of backup paper ballots, he literally made calls, as did the white house counsel, to republican senators to stop it from getting marked up in the rules committee where i'm the ranking member. it's like i have the smoking gun evidence, this happened, he's doing and that's why he's doing it, because it protects their party. but look at what's on the other side. hundreds of thousands of people losing their lives on the battlefield to protect our democracy and democracies around the world. four little girls in birmbirmin dying in a church at the height of the civil rights movement. innocent, innocent, because people simply wanted to have the right to vote and be part of our

democracy. that's what's at stake here. >> you have the russians trying to ruin our democracy and you have others trying to ruin our country. let's call it what it is. that sounds unamerican. >> i have made very clear what i think about this. i think it is not patriotism. i think it's pure partisanship, and i think we've got to call him out on it because once you get those bills to the floor, i promise you, we will get the votes to pass them. but he has blocked them from coming to the floor and the american people need to understand that. as president, i will be able to get all this done, but i don't even want to wait until i'm president, i want to get it done now. that's why every debate i've worked to try to bring it up no matter what the question is

because people have to know what's going on. >> senator amy klobuchar, thank you very much. >> thank you. see you, claire! >> yep, old friends. we want to show you two sound bites that pretty much encapsulates last night. take a look. >> i think democrats win when we run on real solutions, not impossible promises. when we run on things that are workable, not economics. look at this city of detroit, this amazing city we're in. this city is turning around because the government and prooifrt s private sector are working well together. that has to be our motto going forward. we need to encourage collaboration between the government, the private sector and non-profit sector, creating jobs, improving their pay. >> i get a little bit tired of democrats afraid of big ideas. republicans are not afraid of

big ideas. they could give a trillion dollars in tax breaks to billionaires in profitable corporations. they could bail out the crooks on wall street, so please don't tell me that we cannot take on the fossil fuel industry and nothing happens unless we do that. >> john delaney leading the moderates on stage warning of unfair economics. the progressive wing against those democrats are afraid of big ideas. joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of k ark ka kasie, kasie hunt. and alicea melendez. alicea, we'll start with you.

who stood out to you last night? >> it was less about who stood out than the conflict on that stage, the debate between progressives and moderate. i've heard a lot on this show oo

but it is great for the democratic party to have this debate. what's interesting is that the real political athletes in this democratic field of 20 seem to be the most progressive. bernie sanders and elizabeth warren hit all of their marks last night, elizabeth hit all of her marks in the first debate. she could not have done better for the position she was fighting for. and bernie, it was like a tale of two bernies. the last debate he seemed old, tired, repeating the same thing. and last night, man, he was on fire, had a great opening and was aggressive all night. >> he was. he was very much on his game, and i think he showed why it was he gave hillary clinton such a run for her money back in 2016. but i have to tell you, joe, what the debate last night left

me wanting was a faceoff between elizabeth warren and joe biden. bernie and warren sort of teamed up, right, to present their progressive ideas instead of going after each other, but warren and biden right now represent the two strongest candidates in the respective sort of pillars. and joe, i go back and forth, because i've obviously watched everything you said on the show and tweeted about the risks of these progressive ideas that many democrats are pushing, getting rid of private health insurance, decriminalizing crossing the border, et cetera, and on the one hand, i agree with you, there are definitely pitfalls in a general election in these rust belt states. but on the other hand, hillary clinton, i remember, in 2016 very often carried this message to people that they couldn't go that big because it wouldn't work. she had this realist message where she said, i'm not going to try and sell you something

that's never going to happen, and it fell so incredibly flat, and look where we are now. i think there is still an aspect here, and part of why there is so much excitement on the progressive side, is that people are looking for somebody that's going to say, you know what, we get the system is not working for you, and what we're going to do is not try to work within the system but it is to throw it out. so that, i think, is the central tension and it goes beyond idealogy. >> it goes beyond idealogy, and again, michael, still the great political athletes on the stage right now seem to be the progressives. there aren't moderates that are talking about really aggressively taking it to donald trump. there are some very good candidates out there, but let me just say to democrats, it's very simple what you'll hear from the republican party this week, what you'll hear from donald trump is you want to give health care to illegal immigrants coming across the border, and yet there are

millions of americans that don't even have health care right now, 40 million, 50 million. you can claim you'll give everybody health care, but that doesn't come without taking away all choices. no, you can't have the doctor you want, you can't have the uniform health plan you love. same with illegal immigration.