all right. we are a ul out of time for this hour of msnbc. >> time now for "up" with david gura. good morning, david. >> this is "up." i'm david gura. on this saturday morning, most of the 2020 democratic presidential contenders are in iowa demanding gun policy change in the aftermath of those two mass shootings. >> i will not let the slaughter of our fellow citizens just disappear within the next media cycle. >> on the campaign trail, they continue to call out president trump for the divisive role he's playing. >> he has no interest in unifying the country. instead, he's publicly and unapologetically embraced the

political strategy of hate, racism and division. >> and president trump says those massive immigration raids in mississippi that separated kids from their parents are a warning sign, plain and simple. >> they're going to be brought out. and this serves as a very good deterrent. >> but oh, the hypocrisy. "the washington post" is out for a new report on how the trump organization has relied on undocumented workers. it is saturday, august 10th. after that shooting in el paso, president trump did not receive the warmest of welcomes. there were many reasons for that. including the huge bill he has yet to pay for a rally he held in that city in february. >> man, going back to el paso when you owe the still $500,000 is a bold move. they're going to have to put the boot on air force one. >> up on me this morning,

michael waldman and christy debeltron. eugene scott is a political reporter for "the washington post." we start this morning with el paso, the defendant stated his targets were mexicans. that line is from a detective in an affidavit we saw for the first time just a few hours ago. after that attack in west texas and another shooting only hours later in dayton, ohio, the conversation in this country is about how we got here and what has to change. democrats are pushing for the u.s. senate to take up gun policy legislation. the president says he wants solutions and if all this feels familiar to you, it's because we have been here before over and over again. in 1999 after the shooting of columbine high school, newt gingrich blamed violent video games. in the year that followed, lawmakers proposed more than 800 gun bills, according to "popular science" and nothing happened.

in the 2007 shooting at virginia tech, mitt romney blamed violence in music and television. in 2012 after the shooting of sandy hook elementary school, the head of the nra told reporters the video game industry was responsible. lawmakers introduced 24 pieces of gun policy legislation and, again, nothing happened. this is the same. they point fingers and when all is said and done, there is no meaningful action. two mass shootings, hour apart. there are 31 dead and 50 injured as the president goes on vacation he blames the usual suspects. he refuse toes call on senators to return from their vacations. a house bill on background checks has stalled in the united states senate. it was not always this way, two of my colleagues point out in a piece on nbc news.com. there was a time when gun incidents were crime trends

brought legislative reactions from washington. between 1934 and 1994, congress passed at least four laws in response to gun crimes. it was something, at least. so what will it take to break the cycle? mike waldman, you have thought about this issue a lot and you have written about this issue. basic question to begin with. does this moment feel different? i've covered a number of these shootings. people hope that it will, people sense that it will. does this time feel different to you? >> well, it does feel different, but it's often felt different before and then, sadly, i feels the same as passions fade and people move on. as a lot of people have noted, we're not the only country with people with mental illness. we're not the only country with violent video games. they watch a lot more of them in japan than they do here. we're not the only country with white supremacists. but we are the only country with 400 million guns. that's one of the main reasons we have this constant problem of shootings. i think the things that do seem different this time, first of

all, the shooting in particular, the massacre, the terrorist attack in el paso was so different because it was a political attack. it was white nationalist attack with the language echoing that of donald trump. that raises the temperature for trump and the republicans more than anything else has. the other thing is the nra, which has always been seen more powerful than it actually is in utter disarray. they're busy filing lawsuits against each other and falling apart. and i think this could create a different environment. the sad fact is the shootings, the massacre of those children in connecticut happened after the election in 2012. this is happening before the election. and the politicians might run scared this time. >> i see you nodding at that. i'm curious about the cauldron in which this is taking place. this is a period in washington

where congress is vacant. what is going to change the political tenor? >> i think if thing that won't change is the fact that republicans don't want to do this and they're not committed and they're trying to kill this and slow walk it and hope the typical media cycle will happen and will be appalled and then will go away. if people want real gun control and rechange, it involves changing senate. it involves having a different party involved. we have one party that really doesn't warrant gun control. i think something that is different is the fact that there are multiple movements and confluences of different communities here. so i think one thing you have, you have all these activists, gun control activists, rights organizations, you know, hate, anti-hate groups. there's a whole kind of confluence and organizations and that, i think, starts to change things because now there's a real movement on the other side that is organized and outraged and sick of the endlessness of this. and i think the thing that's changed is the public sense,

sort of like on climate change, there's a deepening sense of crisis and then a feeling that we have to do something. so i think that's what's really different. >> let me read this from senator chuck schumer. we have seen it before. an awful shooting occurs. donald trump expresses interest in helping. republicans try to get him off the hook with lesser measures and nothing happens. speak to that, if you will, of not having a guy who is bargaining in good faith, the president going outside talking at length in the hot sun, sweating as he said that he's heard from the majority leader that he's open to universal background checks. we see the senate majority leader backtracking on that later in the day. >> there are some people i've spoken with on the hill who are frustrated about this because they believe when it comes to gun laws, the president doesn't have any deeply held convictions. one of the reasons he seems to be all over the place is because perhaps he really is. on very different issues not related to gun control, we have seen the president ach to listen

to the person he has spoken with last the most. and this very well could be another one of those situations. the problem is, there does seem to be a bit of a change, as we said, and i don't know if that's because this is august and a lot of attention is on it in ways that it would not be if, you know, congress was in session and more things were happening or if it comes on the backs of so many other situations that have given him bad press and he knows he needs to win. but the reality is it's hard to work with someone who doesn't really know what he wants to do. what will come on of that? >> you talk about the confluence of groups, stakeholders and all of this coming together. what's your sense of the role that the democratic candidates are playing in doing that? i was struck being on the ground in el paso as i got there, i talked to a number of these candidates and how unified they were as a result of that. going into an election, how much does that power of cohesion

matter? >> i think this is one of the times we're having 35, 82 candidates is useful. you have a multiplicity of voices finding different points to make about gun control. so i think that set of voices is powerful because you hear different kinds of critiques. no one candidate is in charge of being the voice of gun control. but i think one thing we haven't talked about in the face of this horrific violence, one thing we haven't thought about that is important is we have to find a way to recruit people who enjoy gun culture into the story. and with all the talk of violent video games, even though the data shows that not a problem, actually, or violent films. we might have a critique of them. but the reality is there are certain people who get pleasure in certain types of violence. it's okay to enjoy violent shoot 'em up movies.

that doesn't mean we can't have gun control. that but you can't have a weapon of war in your home, right? but all i'm saying is i think it's important to think about how do we hail in people who take pleasure in gun culture and make sure the movement says to those people, you have a place in this movement. you can enjoy this culture. but it doesn't mean you have to ally with the nra. that will be important in hailing in people who do want to see change. >> i'm thinking about lindsey graham who has an ar-15 because when all hell breaks loose, he's going on be the guy with the ar-15. >> when the assaults weapon was passed in 1984, at the time, that was the thing that was controversial in the bill. all arguments against it were by hunters, by people from rural culture who said i passed my rifle on to my son. you don't really hear that any

more. these days, 90% of the broad public support it, but the overwhelming majority of gun owners support it. it was lack of political will and fear of the nra and the filibuster. it got a majority of the vote in the senate and i do think it's going to really put the spotlight on the filibuster and the broken nature of the united states senate and you get change in that institution not when it's kind of about these arcane rules, but when there's something people really care about that keeps getting bottled up. that happened with civil rights in the 60s and 70s. >> i'm so glad you bring this up. you see this from senator bernie sanders talking about ending the filibuster. your sense of the resonance on this, i think weeks ago as you heard candidates talking about that, you thought this is parliamentary procedure. how much is this going to resinate with voters? >> i think quite a bit.

i think people are seeing is if something doesn't change, we're going to be stuck here. there will be no way to address the issues affecting people's lives. i believe you saw this when you were on the ground. it doesn't matter how many times these things happen. there are people in the communities who are affected who find themselves saying, i never thought it would happen to us. that the more people, the number of people who can say that decreases, the number of influence they will have on their lawmakers to say this did happen to us, they don't want it to happen to anyone else and the only way that can be prevented is if you all do something different. up ahead, i.c.e. raids in mississippi city. an unprecedented crackdown on immigrants. why president trump is praising the raids just days after the deadliest attack on hispanics in modern american history. n hispan modern american history. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit.

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this week, on the same day president trump traveled to dayton, ohio, and el paso, texas, the immigration office was detaining almost 700 immigrants in six different communities in mississippi. immigration says they are enforcing the rule of law and this has nothing to do with stymieing immigration. employers have emerged unscath.

a company that has faced fines in the past for violating immigration laws. christina, let me start with you. the moral question this raises, shortly after that shooting, there were people in el paso, there were people going to seek help and they were worried they might be swept up in some sort of immigration issue because of that. days later, this took place. >> right. >> talk about the level of trust that the more fiber that we have hee, the we have that we have here of these folks as individuals, as people. >> right. these are families, these are people, these are workers, they're artists, individuals and human beings who basically, this is another form of white nationalism. it's another form of terrorist. >> it is another form. it's weaponizing immigration, you know, policy to prey on particular populations.

he said he was hunting mexicans, right, the shooter was hunting mexicans. so i think it enacts all the things that are ugly about the trump administration. the shooting changed nothing. their efforts to weaponize immigration and use white nationalist -- this is unforgiveable to me. anybody who is feeling sad and frustrated by seeing these children crying, do something. register for somebody to vote. give money to a senate campaign. if the dnc is not in texas right now registering voters, they are guilty of political mag practice. this is the moment to mobilize and organize. this is exactly what you do in the face of a crisis. people need to galvanize their

rage and move it towards political change. >> i'm in the calculated cruelty that we saw on display in mississippi. the schools were given no heads up about this. you have these heart rending videos of these children pleading to see their parents, they're teachers and those in the community had to assume care for these children as a result of all this. >> i read a lot about identity politics. one of the demographic groups that we're seeing attention paid to in this political climate is children, the idea that children would be left with no one to care for them been no plan put in place to make sure their basic human rights/needs were being met. this is not the first time we've

seen that from this administration. to the point where there are people now on the side of the president who are going, if this is how things are going to be and continue to be, perhaps i need to rethink not just my support for this president, but my ideas about immigration and america and humanity as a whole. >> joyce vance who will be on the show tomorrow to talk about this piece says there is a thing called prosecutorial discretion. this is something that didn't have to happen. and yet it did. >> and under tb obama administration, we can have all kinds of discussions about what the right immigration policy is, how to have a pathway to citizenship for the 11 million people who are here, but there was presidential discussion not going after the dreamers.

the real dismaying thing, and i believe this is exactly correct, we're seeing a deliberate panic in an entire community as a matter of policy. a way of getting people to -- as mitt romney said years ago self-deport and things are coming up like the census where the administration has made it very clear it does not want to kwount anybody and one way to make sure that doesn't happen is to scare the latino community and other immigrants and the demonzation of latinos and muslims and others, we've seen it throughout american history with many groups, but we haven't seen it in a long time and we haven't heard it from the bully pulpit. that is what's really knew. >> as michael talks about this, there's that institutional effort to do that. what if there is an organically

grown culture as a result of the fear we saw in el paso this week? there is reason to be fearful and exclusive from what the government is pushing here through its institutional policies. >> right. there is the random terror that white supremacy can emerge with so many guns and so much hate. one of the things we forget about is a lot of what white supremacy is about native removal policies under andrew jackson, but we're thinking about the capacity to take people and to move them. and this is a long history of how mexicans have been treated in this country is to bring them when you want them and remove them when you don't. that is actually sort of the dream of a white nationalist issue, have them when you want them, exploit them when you

don't. trump wants to make sure their allies are not politically motivated and they can be removed and exploited whenever they want. the dream of removal is partly the dream of white supremacy. that's part of what we're talking about here. i'll just ask you broadly what that says to you, that hypocrisy that you see laid bare there in "the washington post" this morning. >> it plainly displayed a deep inconsistency regarding values and policies and this -- >> back to your point about no deeply held beliefs. >> absolutely. these people have value when their value comes back to me. you would think that if is mn really believed that this is something that was not right, employing people who are from

these communities that a change would happen, but a change has not happened and it's not going to happen because ultimately that is not what it is about. it is about helping those in power maintain their power and use individuals who they've been scapegoating for years and decades as the real reason for all the issues that spur people's cultural anxiety and that isn't wrong. >> and, of course, the president has no role in the running of the trump administration, if you didn't see that clearly. more ahead, at a town hole in des moines, iowa, candidates are in iowa's capital for the state fair where vaughn hilliard is tanding by with an update on the candidates and i hope the cuisine, as well. ope the cuisine, as well ♪ limu emu & doug

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we have to make sure the promises we make in social security, medicaid and medicare are promises we can keep. and there are various ways of doing that. one is we can raise taxes on people. that's not the way -- corporations are people, my friend. >> corporations are people, my friend. welcome back to "up on i ". that was just one memorable moment from the iowa state fair of years past.

presidential hopefuls take their shot at carnival games while delivering their messages months before voters head to the polls. but what happens at the iowa state fair can echo through an entire presidential race. a campaign stop where better comes in the shape of a cow and you can find just about anything fried onner on a stick. does the event hold as much sway as it used to? lisa write, the truth is no matter how well you do at the fair, people care only if he mess up or literally fly to the event in a helicopter. otherwise, it is hard to make news particularly at a time when the stock market is tumbling and the country is so on edge that the sound of a falling sign in a salt lake city mall sent americans running for cover. vaughn kill yard joins us now. i was looking at a list of the

delicacies on display. the jalapeno popper pizza. i assume you've availed of all that thus far. >> real fast, david, the state fair is 11 days and there is a long game to this here. so i think there's a little bit of time to save everything up. so i plan on eating plenty of that. bacon box is over here on our right, the new addition to the state fair this you're, you're right. >> help us understand the import of this to these 20 plus candidates. we're going to be there, beto rourke has remained in texas with his community and the community of el paso. but what are you hearing as those candidates step into the soap box? >> kamala harris will be here. elizabeth warren. the temperature is disht around

here at this state fair. the conversations, he said this is a weird back drop to talk about white supremacy and racism in this atmosphere. steve button said we expect more out of preschoolers than we do donald trump. so what you are hearing from folks is very much of 5 or 15 1/2 months out despite this being the state fair, there's a lot of things that can go wrong here in terms of going down a slide and not having a face. r. there are plenty of missteps to be had. >> eugene scott, there is a line in lisa's piece about the iowa state fair. she writes about the way we campaign is different now.

she points out pete buttigieg came on to the scene because of a televised town hall. even if it's diminished, it's still something one has to do. yeah. i think about who are you trying to reach, who are you trying to connect to. so there are voting blocks that each candidate knows they need to perform very well with to win. the question becomes how do you speak to that community at the iowa state fair if that community isn't really present at the iowa state fair. so, obviously, if you're a candidatic candidate who is relying on the base, relying on people of color, how do you speak to people at the iowa state fair in a way that still makes them attracted to you while talking to those folks? so this is where the strategists are having to step in and figure out how do we connect to an

america that is increasingly diverse when being in spaces that aren't as diverse as america. >> we saw that this week. before these shootings took place, i was you getting an email tailored for folks who would be at the iowa state fair. like the folks who live in rural parts of this country. that has changed as have the focus of politics broadly in the last week have changed. >> yeah. and i think it's a good shift. it used to be people would go to these majority white spaces and go oh, i'm in real america. i think now what you have is this interesting situation in which they're trying to both speak to the people they're with and speak beyond them and have to tell a story of we are all part of this nation. and i think the social media landscape changes things, too. you can't just say real america, butter, i'm going to eat a pork

parfait and do that kind of thing. so annoy you have people at the iowa state fair now talking about white supremacy. >> and, you know, it's a quirk of the primary calendar that first you have the iowa talkuses, then you have new hampshire, two of the least diverse states. but it does send to kind of distort things. what is important and i think positive, suddenly there are voters and they have to do organizing and retail politics in a mays where people can kick the tires on these candidates. so hear them talking about guns in this audience is really important and there is a real change in the tenor from two

weeks ago. a lot of democrats watched those debates and thought, gee, they seem to be attacking each other and maybe barack obama and debating the fine points of which medicare for all provision will never see the light of day and forgetting they're running against donald trump in 2019. for better or for worse, the events on of the last week or two have been telling. >> i saw joe biden, the former vice president, sat front row and center at that wing ding in iowa to watch his own opponents speak. there is a moment off the debate state where these candidates are bump into each other. they're interacting with each other. you've had these candidates listening to one another and trying to figure out what unifies them as candidates vying for that nomination. >> exactly.

you're talking about joe biden sitting through the different speeches of the candidates. you had joe biden run into governor bullock just the other day on thursday after their soap box. but, the conversations that are happening here, just a few hours from now wnl just a few blockses down the road here, there will be a quickly organized gun forum that will be taking place. 17 of the candidates are taking part in that forum. again, na came together just this week after those mass shootings last week. but 17 of those candidates are having that conversation right here in downtown des moines. >> we are going to check in with alley who is covering that event a little later. vaughn, thank you very much, as always. up next, the nobknow lawyert and the president. lawyer ye and the president. here you go little guy.

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if you can only be tall because somebody is on their knees, then you have a serious problem. and my feeling is, white people have a very, very serious problem. and they should start thinking about what they can do about it. >> we lost toni morrison this week, the first avenue can american woman honored with a noble prize in literature. the first black woman of any nationality to win a nobel prize

in any category. she's an author who in her 88 years wrote almost a dozen novels, who wrote essays and short stories. toni morrison traveled to the white house to receive a presidential medal of freedom from barack obama who called her rightly one of our nation's most celebrated novelists. the day after she died, i wrote, if you he received a statement from the president about toni morrison, please send it my way. i can't seem to find it. there was no statement. there was not a mention or a tweet. i know many of you are probably thinking or saying of what i saw in my mentions after i wrote that tweet, that she, toni morrison, would not have wanted the president to say anything. but a towering, path breaking figure in american arts and letters is gone and the president of the united states did not acknowledge that and the white house, the administration,

did not, either. and that is my point. and it's something i have thought about a lot this week. there are men and women who continue to pay respect to the presidency who argue in the face of all we have lived through is that the presidency is bigger than any one person, that the office and institution are what really matters. more than two years into donald trump's tenure, that continues. did we hear it this week as president trump traveled to dateson and el paso. >> for all in el paso, there are people that have mixed feelings about the penalty coming. we're going to need help to meet the sneeze of thneeds of this community. >> ms. escobar declined to meet with president trump. none of the eight victims of the

el paso victims agreed to meet with president trump when he visited on wednesday. a lot changes this week and i think the way many americans regard the presidency did, too. it is a powerful position and the occupant of that position is imbued with power to create policy and also to set a tone. toni morrison wrote a piece for the new yorker, so scary are the consequences of a collapse of white privilege that many americans have flocked to a political platform that translates violence against the defenseless as strength. these people are not so much angry as terrified with the kind of terror that makes knees tremble. on election day, how eagerly so many white voters, both the poorly educated and the well educated embrace the fear sowed by donald trump. think about how resinate that is than anything president trump said or read after the two

tragedies we experienced as a nation in the last week. i will say it again. the president, capital "p," capital "t," has a duty to set a tone for this company for berth or for worse. on monday, we lost someone who could identify this president's tone clearly from day one. they wanted us to hear it and understand it. the president is not going to acknowledge all she did, but we will and we'll be right back. di will and we'll be right back donald trump failed as a businessman.

he borrowed billions and left a trail of bankruptcy and broken promises. he hasn't changed. i started a tiny investment business, and over 27 years, grew it successfully to 36 billion dollars. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message.

i'm running for president because unlike other candidates, i can go head to head with donald trump on the economy, and expose him fo what he is: a fraud and a failure. if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores.

don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. talk to your rheumatologist. right here. right now. humira. this is "up." i'm david gur ra. president trump has began a ten-day vacation in bed minister, new jersey. thanks to the unhinged mob on the left, donald trump raised $12 million today, two million more than expected. support for our president is unprecedentsed and growing according to one writing. steven ross hosted that fund-raiser. he has defended himself saying he at times disagrees with the

president of the united states. matthew yglesias had a great tweet about this. the fact that soulcycle billionaire guy is under pressure because he wants to support -- the committee has raised $237 million so far towards his re-election. let's start with that quiet. what does this moment say to you? this is a president who proudly when he was running for president for the first time said that he wasn't getting money from billionaires, from big donors. and it is quite telling. and the idea that the president raised $12 million because of the unhinged left, it's not true. he raised $12 million because there are people in this country who have made up their minds that it is okay to overlook or to ignore or to silently support and buy into the more problematic parts of this

presidency for our issues such as the financial benefits that come to major corporations, the wealthy, that we have not seen trickle down to the people that the president and they just have peace with that. and i think when we're also seeing, what's incredibly fascinating is how some conservatives can support boycotting nike when it comes to colin kaepernick, but when it comes to boycotting soulcycle and equinox, it seems terrible. the inconsistency is illuminating. the people on the receiving end of these policies and fundraising and political ideology are saying i have to do something different if i want 2020 to be different. >> michael walton? >> this is a moment where people are saying i'm not going to the gym. but that's a political statement. i'm doing it to make a political point. i've been making that political point for a long time. these folks have said for years,

when it comes to campaign contributions, money is speech. speech is also protesting the giving of that campaign money. and donald trump last time, whether it was true or not ran without making a big show of taking the traditional typical money that goes to a republican candidate for president or a democrat candidate for president. this time he is running with the full institutional support of the republican money machine. which actually creates a possibility for something that hillary clinton, either couldn't or wouldn't do. which is to run against him the way barack obama ran against mitt romney. which is this, this is somebody who is going to focus on corporate tax breaks and other things that people don't like. because that is a way in to those trump voters who might have voted for the democrats in the past. and possibly could be pulled back. while also being a way to appeal to base democrats. so it changes the politics of the moment.

>> christi belcher, we've talke about the latest iteration of fundraising politics in this country. >> i mean that i think what's interesting is that boycott culture can be useful. this is a moment where people get to vote with their feet. i think one, i think also people are feeling so helpless until the election there's a feeling of like wanting to say -- this is so wrong and bad. i think we need a big march in the fall to just like protect our election, but that's another conversation. but i do think that this is a chance for a lot of people to express their rage through deciding to not participate in what are essentially lifestyle brands, right? it's important to decide you know, do i need to participate in this? and you see like new york sportsclub and all these other companies saying we're over here, we're not unethical, you can participate with us. one thing that's going to be interesting is how will it play out in blue states? how will consumers vote? i think it tells you that corporations are amoral institutions and that their owners sometimes have really

evil, not evil but -- you can judge it. but have ideologies in which they feel they can walk away from white supremacy, but embrace the tax cuts. it will be interesting to keep it in mind, important to keep in voters' faces the reality of these are what these companies do. you have a choice, you can support companies that do this, or companies that don't do this. you can express your own agency as a consumer. consumers are not the same thing as citizens. i value the practice of citizenship more than consumption. but i think you can do a lot with your consumer power. this is a chance where you get to see that maybe happen. >> eugene, steve ross didn't have to do this. in the face of the protests, if he was worried about the bottom line or the disagreements, he didn't have to go ahead with these fundraisers. christine raised the point how is it going to play in blue states, how about red states? there's an opulence in going to a $50,000 a plate fundraiser to an opulent home in the hampton.,

>> i think he communicated what he values most. even in the face of push-back. i think people were waiting for a cancellation or maybe a big check to something that supports many of the issues that people find problematic about the president. what we did is double down and say i'm still going to have this, because i do support the tax cuts and i think what that does, is actually shine light on the tax cuts and disrupt the narrative of the president and the republican party about the tax cuts being beneficial for everyone. it's not. they have not. they've been beneficial for people like billionaire steven ross. >> last question to you, michael walton. >> here we are, looking incredible sums of money. $12 million raised over the course of what, two hours is extraordinary p when you look at what they've raised in aggregate, $237 million so far. to christina's point, we're a long ways away from november 2020. >> and we're used to the idea

that we have billions of dollars raised in elections and typically, overwhelmingly from special interests. from k street from people who have some economic involvement with politics or with government. there is a change. you do see now in the rise of small donations, on the internet, not just for progressive candidates, for conservatives, also. a way for people to participate in a much more small d democratic way. interestingly the democratic candidates are talking about campaign finance reform, for the first time in decades. you're talking about these issues. the media actually hasn't caught up. there hasn't been a single question on voting rights or on political reform in any of these debates. but the public is there and the candidates are retooling their campaigns, to try to meet this new moment. >> it's a question for the next debate. michael walton, christina beltron and eugene scott. join us tomorrow, maria hinajosa is going to be here along with

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bnchts a week ago, not long after the show ended i was on my way to el paso to cover another mass shooting. in the hours that followed we lenard about the victims, many of whom were mexicans and the suspect who is believed to have written a screed filled with anti-immigrant rhetoric and we heard from 2020 democrats who seem to be in agreement that there is a link between when we have heard from the president time and time again and the uptick in hate and violence in this country. >> he is a big hit with white supremacists. donald trump seems to believe that whether he is or is not a white supremacist. he encourages them, everything he does, he speaks to them. >> he's a man who cozies up to the white supremacists, he calls them fine fellows. this is what he's done the wink

and the nod. >> president trump read a denunciation of white supremacy this week in the diplomatic reception room at the white house and described himself to reporters as the least racist person in the world. and he accused democrats of playing politics. >> for them to throw out the race word. racist, racist. that's all they use to anybody, they call nancy pelosi a racist. she's not a racist. they call anybody a racist when they run out of cards. >> according to the anti-defamation league, over 70% of all extremist-related deaths in the past decade can be linked to right-wing extremists. white supremacists were responsible for the great majority of the killings last year. on thursday the fbi arrested a 23-year-old whoit man in las vegas, seen here patrolling the streets in 2016. he was allegedly planning attacks. >> he had scouted locations for

the adl, for a jewish synagogue. he made derogatory statements about african-americans, about jewish people and about homosexual people as well. >> well country is on edge and over on fox news, some of the president's favorites are gaslighting and fanning the flames. >> what's happening at the border is a flat-out invasion. >> we don't know what people have coming in here. we have diseases in this country, we haven't had for decades. >> even though illegals can't vote over time illegals have children, their children are american citizens, they grow up, they can vote. >> white supremacy, that's the problem. this is a hoax. >> there were mass shootings that foiled attack and also this week in galveston, texas police had to apologize for leading a handcuffed black man down the street with a rope. the rise in attacks by white supremacists from el paso to charleston to cite chuch we're approaching the two-year anniversary of the white supremacist rally in virginia.

>> a senior adviser to former secretary of state, hillary clinton and they're all msnbc contributors. let me start with you and help me mark this moment. i want to ask you about the importance of calling this by name. we've heard from the democratic candidates over the course of the week. many have said frankly they think the president is racist or a white supremacist or a white nationalist. how much does naming it or labelling it matter in terms of our understanding of this? what changed this week? >> well i think it matters a lot in the sense that it reflects a kind of honest assessment of where we are. sometimes shorthands can muddle waters as opposed to clarify them and sometimes we have to use the old formulation from w.v.o. klein we have to explicate by elimination, sometimes we can take the word

0-out and use what it means. when we think of white supremacy, what we're talking about is the ways in which people are valued. i call it the value gap. in this country white people matter more than others. it has organized our political, social and economic life. the belief shapes, it has shaped how this place has come to be and how it functions. and as long as that kind of valuation exists or the value gap exists, we're going to have these moments, so is it the case that donald trump values white people more than he values others? well the evidence is clear -- he does. if white supremacy is valuing white people more than others and that belief evidences itself in economics, politics and our social arrangements, if it sounds like a duck, it's a duck. part of what i think we need to do is name it, not evade it. so that we can confront it. if we do that, maybe we open the doors to be otherwise. >> i believe that was the first van ormen klein reference we've

had on the show. karen let me ask you about the administration's engagement with this issue. the president's engagement with this issue. i ran through statistics about what we have seen here. is it blind ignorance, when you look at the administration's reaction to all of that? >> i wouldn't say ignorance, no. i mean the administration knows a couple of things that animate its response. one is that the president's base of support is largely white. and that the people he most needs to stick with him and turn out in 2020 are, if not you know, themselves sympathetic to a white nationalist argument, and by let's be clear, the vast, vast majority of his supporters are not. they are at least familiar with the terminology. and the president knows and his advisers know. that it is politically tricky

for democrats to start throwing the racist word around at this point in part because democrats need the middle of the country, the white middle of the country to turn out for them as well. that i think the president is not upset to hear elizabeth warren use the call him a racist or a white nationalist. joe biden thinks he can turn that around. and that that word becomes politically charged and actually back-fires on democrats. >> adrian, about that political trickiness, did that change this week? i keep going back to the cohesiveness, the unity of message we've seen from the candidates. folks trying to find the lanes before the first two debates. this week there seems like there's been a coming together on this issue. there are gradations of difference among them, but there's a unifying moment that emerged this week. >> absolutely. i think i give the democratic candidates credit for elevating

the issue and probably at least i'm hoping, actually forcing change this time. finally. i mean we thought when sandy hook happened, that would force change. we thought when parkland, that would force change. but something feels different this time. i think a lot of that does have to do with the fact that democratic candidates are elevating this issue. but also talking about in a very frank manner. they're basically going out there to the american people and saying, how bizarre, how absurd is it we don't have background checks? how insane is it you can go out and buy an ak-47, i can do it when i've shot twice in my life. they're elevating this argument. i think they are changing it. we're seeing this unification like we haven't seen, i think so far in this debate. i'm hoping it will force real change this time. >> eddie, something that anne mentioned, the ability to use this to political ends, we've talked about before about the ail compensation of being a racist. who one custom airily reacts to being called a racist.

what do you make of that the degree to which this president, this administration, this party can see that through that political prism. >> it gives us a sense of how deep and historical this argument is. it's not about donald trump. the kind of argument that you -- this is the way to think about it, right. there's this, there has been this strategy to name it, is to somehow reproduce it. which then handcuffs those of us who bear the burden of it. so we can't call the country racist, because if we call the country racist, then we're going to activate the racism of the country. and so by virtue of that kind of conundrum, those who bear the burden of the country's racism somehow we don't have the language to name it. so what we're, what are we saying? that if you call an act racist, they're going to be people in the middle of the country who are going to say, oh, my god you called me racist, they're going to clutch their pearls and act in a way by supporting someone who is obviously racist. so what you see here is the

circle. it's unending so part of what we have to do is break it in the way we break it, david, is by saying that it's not just simply the loud racists who are the problem. it's the folks who have their homes with their picket fences in the suburbs who are content with living in segregated spaces. it's the folks in new york who don't want black kids and brown kids to come to their schools because they think it's going to diminish the quality of education in their schools. it's those folks who are comfortable, right, with a world that is organized in such a way where you and i are mysteries to each other. we don't live and work and act in our private spaces together. think about how segregated your private lives are. compared and mine as well. right so we're walking mysteries to one another. so when donald trump makes that move, and it's a move we heard from george wallace, it's the bigot who calls people bigots, really? when we hear that move, it's not just simply unique to trump,

it's what we've done for generations that's allowed this to fester. >> we're going to have to leave it there only because there's breaking news happening now on accused child sex trafficker jeffrey epstein, he's committed suicide while in custody at manhattan correctional center in new york city. sources tell nbc news he was found at 7:30 a.m. jeffrey epstein pleaded not guilty to sex trafficking charges and remained held without bail. jeffrey epstein apparently dead by suicide this morning. more on the breaking news as it develops in a moment. super emma just about sleeps in her cape. but when we realized she was battling sensitive skin, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it's gentle on her skin, and dermatologist recommended. tide free and gentle.

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want to update you on the breaking news moments ago, jeffrey epstein was found dead in his jail cell here in manhattan. the manhattan correctional facility at 7:30 a.m. of course he's accused of child sex trafficker. tom winter our investigative reporter covering the case is going to join us in a few moments to give us the latest on this death and the investigation as well. jeffrey epstein found dead this morning in his cell here in manhattan. going to shift gear as much as i can, talk about president trump taking a hard stance on immigration policy publicly. his business has taken a different approach. the "washington post" reporting friday that the trump organization has used a crew of stone workers from latin america at its properties up and down the east coast. at least eight of them have employed undocumented immigrants. this goes back 19 years. according to the "post," the

hiring practices of the little-known trump unit are the latest example of the chasm between the president's divisive rhetoric about immigrants and longstanding reliance on illegal immigrants who kraucross the bo and fail youre to scrutinize th status of its immigrants. >> josh partlow broke the story for the "post" and joins us from washington, d.c. tell us about this group. you and your colleagues have done fine reporting on the degree to which the trump organization has relied on immigrant labor, on undocumented immigrant labor. the latest chapter on that story. what's changed as a result of this? >> thanks a lot. this latest story is about a group of hispanic latin american immigrants, mostly from ecuador. also from guatemala who have worked for president trump for nearly two decades.

they started doing masonry projects at his golf course in westchester, new york. later went to bedminster, new jersey, up and down the east coast to his winery in charlottesville over the years and they would, at these golf courses, president trump relies on similar features, rock walls, fountains, waterfalls and so they would basically replicate these features over and over and many of these workers we learned were undocumented from the beginning. and still are to this day. there's a little less work now than there was during the era of big construction of these golf courses. but there are people, this crew is still on the payroll. and is still doing maintenance in construction work wherever the trump organization needs them. >> the flintstones as they're named, i want to read a statement here. a spokesman for the trump organization says mobile payroll construction is not listed in the public e-verify database.

the extent to which this is a long story. help us understand what the trump organization has said the degree to which they've changed their policies as a result of this reporting? >> well so when the first big story on the issue came out of the "new york times" in december about a couple maids at trump's bedminster golf course who were undocumented, they came forward to tell their story, the trump organization said this was the first that essentially they had heard of this. that they conducted an audit to look at their employees across several golf courses. and that resulted in a bunch of firings, we know of at least 20, we think there's many more than that. and, and then essentially they they enrolled the golf courses of properties in the e-verify, the government's database where you can check employees' immigration status. you know, in the case of this construction crew for example

they say that nothing changed. nobody checked their papers, they continue to work as if nothing was different. >> eddie glaude, josh bartlow, putting it in context with what we saw in mississippi, your home state. how you regard these two things when you look at them in complement like that. the devastation to a number of these families that took place as poultry processing facilities were raided in mississippi. how you attempt to square these things when you look at the hypocrisy. >> i don't square them, i see them as hypocrisy alongside cruelty. the hypocrisy of donald trump is nothing new. but to quote adam swerver, the point of the policy is the cruelty. i think we need to understand that. and it's happening while we're all you know sharing pastries around the table. >> i feel bad about that. >> i'm saying it's happening in our midst, it's the banality of evil, right?

so and it's not just trump, right. it's again i keep making this move to troy to implicate us all in this. it's the koch brothers, the business, the owners who hired them. who didn't want them to organize in the building. it's us who hire folks who, who cut our lawns. me. you know, these sort of things, we're in the midst of this. and so those of us who hold, who embrace the cruel policy, we have to interrogate and question our own hypocrisy. >> we've heard from the white house saying they have no say in when these raids are conducted. something that's the purview of i.c.e., purview of the law enforcement agencies. how much truth, how much does that ring true. you think of what the president has said in recent weeks, the fact that he teased initially raids of millions of immigrants in this country. >> it strains credulity that the white house would not know at all this was in the works. these were operations that were weeks and weeks in the planning. and kept secret from the social

service agencies in mississippi, deliberately. so as to not to tip off employers and workers themselves. i think trump was the clearest he has been on this point. on the lawn the other day when he said that these raids are good deterrent. no apologies, no suggestion that maybe waiting a week until the devastation of black and brown people primarily brown people in el paso, had eased a bit. the thought of that. no. they went ahead with this. they went ahead with it because they view it as part of a policy of deterrence. try to make it as uncomfortable and difficult for people to come to this country. or at least give the impression that that's what you're doing. josh partlow's reporting and my other colleagues' reporting on the nearly 20-year history of

the trump organization employing undocumented immigrants suggests that he had you know, a monetary interest in having undocumented immigrants come to this country, until now. >> josh let me ask you lastly before you move back to washington, you were in mexico city. the degree to which this resonates with folks there. i think of the video i saw this week of these young children pleading with the u.s. government not to troet their parents as criminals, so clearly in distress, not having their parents there. there are those images, i think back on the photograph taken at the border of the young girl crying as her mother dealt with a border official. talk about how images like that, how video like that, how this broadly is transmitted across that border throughout mexico. >> yeah, these are issues that are watched very closely in mexico and in central america. since, since before president trump was even president, he

visited mexico when he was on the campaign and it was a major issue and many mexicans felt that their president pena nieto had betrayed them by just inviting him to this country. all the talk about building the wall across the mexican border. all the talk about the nafta negotiations. the deportations to mexico and central america. i mean i think mexicans, they, they have to, have had to reckon with this issue in a way they haven't with a long time. as their politicians try to figure out how to deal with president trump. one of the big surprises recently is the current mexican president has essentially agreed to try to crack down more on the central americans, coming to the united states. even though he campaigned on treating migrants, you know and protecting their human rights. it's an issue that you know, we've seen donald trump pinatas burned in effigy in mexico, it's

an issue they take seriously. millions of mexicans living in the united states. so it's, it's something that's, that's, that they're living through in a very dramatic way as well. >> jeff partlow was a foreign correspondent for the "post," based in mexico city, now covers foreign affairs in washington, d.c. up next she's the latest white house official to call it quits. penning a handwritten note to her letter of resignation, to the list of acting officials gets longer. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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welcome back to "up," a lot to cover, including the breaking news about the suicide of jeffrey epstein, while in custody in manhattan correctional center here in new york city. sources say he was found at 7:30 a.m. jeffrey epstein had pled not guilty to federal charges of sex trafficking and remained held without bail. anne guerin let me turn to you to get a sense of the importance of this. we were talking about how a few weeks back, the way that he was being held in that facility was changed as a result of something that could have led to this. >> he was found with marks on

his neck. a couple of weeks ago which was presumed suicide attempt. and the conditions under which he was held were changed. one would assume to be to have greater supervision for somebody who had tried it once. >> i think you know, this is a, a shocking end to a shocking case. and while it you know certainly spares his victims and the country a long and painful criminal justice process, it also denies his victims what full day in court. so it's, i think it's a mixed result. >> tom winter is joining us now, investigative reporter at nbc news, he's following this case and joins us by phone. tom winter, give us an update of what happened. i gather he was discovered in his cell at 7:30 eastern. >> that's correct. and the timing has made a little bit more clear. we often is the case in these type of situations.

you know, the first details, sometimes can become a little confused. with an update to your reporting. >> it's this. is that at 6:39 this morning. the fdny and ems here in new york got a phone call from mcc, patient in cardiac arrest. go and get epstein, they take him to new york's downtown hospital where he's pronounced dead. and according to officials, it is believed that the manner of this was that he hung himself. they believe that obviously that he died by suicide. and somebody who is a very high-profile person in custody, somebody who has been detained pending trial is now dead. and for prosecutors in new york, this is going to be very difficult. because they had really looked forward to bringing a a case, bringing him to justice and justice for his victims. so you can bet that there's going to be some questions asked, serious questions, as to

how this happened. why this happened. and, and how he was able to do this. given the recent incident where he may have hurt himself and given his profile as a defendant. >> tom winter when i saw you you were buried under a tranche of documents. released yesterday. help us understand how this story moved forward with the release of these files. >> yesterday in a civil case, actually a case that didn't even involve jeffrey epstein, but involved one of his kind of top associates or assistants, ghislaine maxwell. she had been sued by virginia roberts joffrey, somebody who had made very serious allegations against epstein and a number of other people. about, about sexual abuse, about what she was put through. sex trafficking allegations. and allegations of being forced to, corersed into sex.

she had sued ghislaine maxwell for defamation, based on some statements that maxwell had made publicly and through representatives to the press. the lawsuit had been going on since 2015. it was settled in 2017. the terms of that settlement was it was settled out of court. significant amount of the documents in that case have been placed under seal. that's not uncommon. it's not uncommon in cases where you may have people that are accused of things that are not party to the case. that could be damaging to their reputation. could be damaging to their background. you have things that are put back and forth and that person isn't able to defend themselves because they're not a party to the lawsuit. however several people moved forward to try to get those documents unsealed. the second circuit court i have a peels agreed with the lower court's decision saying yes, sir they should be unsealed.

we saw kind of the first traunche become unsealed yesterday. there were significant allegations that were made involving former senator mitchell, involving former new mexico governor bill richardson. that they had had sex with this woman, allegations that both of them vehemently denied. and on top of that, we saw the president saying come on, in that president's name come up. in that the accuser, virginia joffrey provided some clarity as to when she worked at mar-a-lago, had which is where she was allegedly found by ghislaine maxwell and entered jeffrey epstein's orbit. she said she did not have any physical relationship with the president at all. it was another significant step forward, and it was a significant step forward as far as what law enforcement found at least local law enforcement found back in the mid 2000s and raised even more questions about

he very controversial nonprosecution agreement that was reached by the former secretary of labor, alex acosta. another domino of information domino string if you will yesterday. that fell and obviously this is a, this is really a stunning turn of events here this morning. >> tom winter investigative reporter. stay with us if you would. eddie glaude. tom talking about how disappointing this is bound to be for prosecutors going after jeffrey epstein. devastating to those who made the accusations as well. talk a bit about that. this in american culture broadly. the reporting done by the "miami herald" to resurface this story. to raise this to everyone's consciousness. to see the arrest of jeffrey epstein here a few weeks ago. >> it's first of all, tom is absolutely right. there's folks who are going to have to answer for how this happened. he was under suicide watch. he had tried something. so how could this happen, given

that he was under close scrutiny. some folks are going to have to answer for that. that's the first thing. the second thing, is that it seems to me that we cannot allow his death or his suicide, to push this out of view. the women who have been subject to this kind of abuse demand or require their day, their day in court in some way. we have to figure out how that's going to happen. with whether or not his estate needs to be divided among them. i don't know, i'm not a lawyer. what i do know is the questions being surfaced in, in the case still need to be pursued. they cannot, we cannot stop asking them. because he's dead now. we have to do that on behalf of those young women. >> about that and tom winter mentioning alex acosta's role in all of this as the guy who signed off on this nonprosecution agreement. the questions of what happened with regard to the treatment of these women, there are the questions of how this was regarded by the legal system.

and where this leaves us, what kind of faith this leaves us with in that legal system. >> i guess that's left to be determined. all i keep thinking about, david, is those women. the dozens and dozens of victims to jeffrey epstein who are waking up to the news this morning and who are thinking will i ever see the justice that i deserve? that i want? i cannot imagine what going through their heads right now. we've got to get to the bottom of it. understanding how this happened. when he was on suicide watch. knowing he had attempted suicide once before. those victims deserve every ounce of justice. i'm confident it will happen. unfortunately it's not going to be with him living to see that happen. >> to those questions, anne, about confidence in the legal system, take us back to the tempest that was surrounding alex acosta when he was still the labor secretary. i'm curious about the tweeter when the storm died down after he left that office. he delivered the press conference, spoke to reporters, comported himself well enough for a couple of days and then was out.

where does that story -- with is that story now? >> i would go back a step. farther still. god bless the "miami herald," right? amazing. and it shows that, that solid investigative journalism can really do amazing things. this was a story that had hit a dead end. my paper, many others, many had looked and looked. at the nonprosecution agreement. that acosta signed off on as a federal prosecutor in miami all those years ago. which denied the the young women then, many of them at that point, original subject of the case were now of age to testify in court. openly. they wanted to and couldn't. because, the case had been closed and he, jeffrey epstein was given a nominal sentence which he barely served.

it, they're the obvious questions about why that had happened were, out there for years and years and years. and alex acosta was at the center of it. it certainly came up when he was selected, but again that story had hit a dead end. yeah, he was the guy that came up with the crazy thing that everybody asked about five years ago, the nonprosecution agreement. his nomination went through really without much of a hitch. he was not a big factor within the administration. but he was one of only two hispanic cabinet members. which was significant. i think within the white house there was some reluctance to make it look like he was being made a fall guy. he did hang on for a couple of days. he rye signed himself and the president was more than happy to have him do so. we have not heard from him

since. >> eddie glaude, this is guy who inserted himself into the academic world. we've learned so much more about that. the office that he held, the office that he had in harvard square right across from the harvard campus, the friendships he brokered with the likes of larry summers, alan dershowitz, steven pinker. what he was able to buy through the promise of these donations to institutions like harvard that raised his legitimacy were an attempt to whitewash what was a blemish isn't even the right word, sizeable stain on who he is. who he was excuse me. >> well sometimes money can hide the most monstrous of things, right? the most monstrous of things. it reveals how deeply warped our ethical and moral center as a country has been, by money. by greed. in some ways he's a poster child of what it means to be a person of means and how that can buy

you anything. and can buy you in some ways, a pass on what is obviously eechb actions. -- evil actions. >> jonathan dean, jeffrey epstein found dead in his cell here in manhattan, jonathan, take us back, john winter walked us through the timeline, 6:39 a.m. eastern here in new york. what more do we know at this point as we talk about how astonishing it is that a guy who apparently tried to injure himself a few weeks back was in a position where he could do it once again? >> yeah, a couple of weeks ago he apparently had tried this. it was not considered a serious attempt, more a call out for attention. he was moved into isolation and placed on suicide watch at the time. but we know one official saying he may have been taken off suicide watch? recent days. and that is perhaps why he had

the ability to take his own life unnoticed in the overnight hours. he was discovered around 6:30 a.m. an ambulance was called. he was taken to a hospital in lower manhattan. where we're told he was pronounced dead. five different sources saying this is an apparent suicide. and the investigation is under way into how this could have happened. if he was still on suicide watch, we are told he would have been in a cell that had no sheets, minimal clothing and he would have been watched pretty much around the clock. if he was off suicide watch and just in a cell in isolation, he perhaps would have had a sheet, blankets, clothing, thus giving him perhaps some capability to do this. the question is, after his evaluation, what made them decide to take him off suicide watch, if in fact that is what happened. we is one official telling us that's the case, we're waiting to hear back from several others.

>> without venturing too far in the world of speculation, i want to draw on your experience as somebody who covered criminal justice in new york for a long while. how order of the ordinary would that be for somebody held in a facility at the manhattan correctional center, to be taken off suicide watch? something of the prominence of jeffrey epstein. >> this episode is very unusual and quite confounding, given the high profile nature of this inmate. the incident when it happened was very confusing because there was an investigation still under way to try to determine exactly what happened. you'll remember suicide was, suicide attempt was a leading theory. they're also looking into whether he was attacked by his cell mate or whether it was a fake ruse to try to get transferred to another fact. so all of those factors were still in play as of this past week. the investigation was ongoing. with leading theory. possible suicide attempt.

they did move into another cell. we were told he was put on suicide watch. whether he went through evaluations, who made the determination he should not be on suicide watch, that he was okay, that we wait to hear back. we are awaiting an official statement from the bureau of prisons, which is expected sometime this morning. >> i want to bring in dan n ny saville, there are open legal questions, i wonder what happens to that investigation to that process now that the principal has been found dead in his cell? >> there will be no trial. no day for the victims. because it is a principle of american law that we don't prosecute people once they're deceased. the case will be dismissed and he'll never be convicted of these crimes. it's an interesting paradox. because had he been granted pretrial release. it's probably more likely he wouldn't have committed suicide in a strange way, the victims might have had a better shot at

some closure. and some justice. it's unfortunate. and the numbers, the statistics show that folks in pretrial detention, not folks who are serving their sentence in prison, folks in pretrial detention are much more likely among those in custody, to commit suicide. so just looking at the numbers alone, folks who find themselves awaiting trial, who have lost their bid for bail, the odds of committing suicide skyrocket. and they skyrocket in the early days and gradually level off in the days that follow. so that someone about a month in, is around 20%, 20% of the suicides that occur, occur about a month into detention. which is about where jeffrey epstein was. >> i want to get your perspective on this as well. how much the conversation surrounding this story has changed. mentioning the landmark reporting that julie brown did at the "miami herald," brought it to a lot of folks' attention. now here we are without the

principal, without any course for legal recourse we see at this point. what has changed as a result of his arrest? there was the promise of something that could be, now that's vanished. >> i think it's, it's a huge achievement. to have actually brought him into the criminal justice system at all. which he had, substantially. the arrest was made. >> exactly. cy think it's a helpful conversation that we're having. what does wealth and access by you. is and what kinds of conversations should we be having about the fact that he could basically aim gags alleg could buy 14-year-old girls for sex. because he's a rich white guy. that's not something that the united states of america likes to think about itself. yet it happened and it happened in plain sight of lots of powerful people. who should have known exactly what was happening.

and apparently said nothing. >> about those powerful people, adrienne, this story continues because of what's been raised about them. so in the papers this morning, it's george mitchell, it's bill richardson. the list goes on. and so yes, well this legal case is foreclosed, that spector continues to haunt the legacies of dozens of men. >> i hope with, with jeffrey epstein now deceased, i hope that journalists will still uncover these documents, will still investigate, because that's the only justice and the only closure that these victims are now going to get. he may not, may not get justice in the court of law. they can get justice in the court of public opinion and i hope that these investigations continue and that journalists continue to look into this. that is the only way that these victims are going to find maybe an ounce of recourse. it does make me absolutely sick that he took the chicken you know what way out of this. by committing suicide he was on

suicide watch. they're going to have a lot of explaining to do there. this is a very tragic end to a situation that i think we were all looking to seek, see justice being served. >> eddie glaude, to that point, the others involved in this, the universe surrounding this jeffrey epstein who we now know has died, your sense of where this leaves them. had you alan dershowitz, the former law professor saying he was looking forward to his day in court so he could vindicate himself finally. he's been saying that for years. >> a lot of people around this country are breathing a sigh of relief, saying oh, my goodness, i think i might have escaped something here. which is horrible to think about in some ways. i'm not a lawyer. i think that the young women can sue the estate. i think, this was a civil suit, right? >> yes. >> i hope maybe some of the women who found themselves with these powerful persons can maybe

bring a civil suit or something like that. i don't know. some people are breathing a sigh of relief. >> julie brown, investigative reporter for the "miami herald," i want to get your reaction to this. we spoke a few weeks back shortly after jeffrey epstein was arrested we talked about the prospects of what was to come. you've been following the story closely. let's start first with your reaction to the news that we've seen reported here this morning. >> i'm pretty stunned like everybody else i think. especially given the fact that he had tried to did this before in his jail cell. one would think that they had all eyes on him, if not human eyes, they would have had a camera on him watching him every second, so it's a little stunning that he was able to do that. >> i'll put a question to you that i put to tom winter a few moments ago, that is what

changed yesterday with the release of the documents in that civil suit? as far as your understanding of the case, as far as all of our understanding of what we knew about jeffrey epstein, what he had done. this is sort of a growing ever-widening scandal and criminal, criminal case. it's a tragedy to think about all the girls that were probably abused and taken advantage of over the course, not over of the years, prior that we know about, prior to his being charged in, and getting a plea deal in 2008. but probably to countless other young women and girls who were probably abused after he was let off the hook, so to speak. so it's just -- you know a tragedy that so many people have had to suffer you know all these years when he should have probably been put away a long

time ago quite frankly. >> julie brown at the "miami heral herald", reporting on the news that jeffrey epstein was found dead 7:30 a.m. this morning in the manhattan correctional cell. something that you did that was so important, you talked to a lot more accusers than law enforcement did. i wonder if you could give us insight into how they looked at the process. how they were looking ahead to jeffrey epstein being in the courtroom. to this case unfolding. >> i just off the phone with one of the victims, before you called and she was pretty distraught. i think she's -- she probably feels the way a lot of the other victims, that he's abowsed. this is her speaking, feeling that he's just -- kind of took the coward way out. but on the other hand you know, i think it will bring some

relief to some of these girls and also, you know, this might open up a lot of channels that they will give prosecutors more information you know. he was a pretty formidable figure and a lot of people were very frightened to go public and to talk about what he did. so there might be a lot of people now who will hopefully come forward and say, this happened to me, or i did work for him during this period of time, i know what he was doing. i feel horrible about it but i'm going to tell you exactly what happened. in some ways, maybe this will open up that they hadn't had before. >> you mentioned that conversation. i imagine since your three part series was published, you had a lot of conversations like that, and i wonder what you heard from the victims who talked to you about any catharsis. i imagine it was quite difficult to get them to talk on the

record, and talk about their experiences. what did they say about the catharsis of doing that, telling their stories and the prospects from going forward. >> this is very -- this was very empowering for, i would say, probably the ones that spoke to me. it was very empowering for them. i think they were surprised at how empowered they felt after they were able to stand up and talk about it and say, you know, what he did was wrong. you know, there's a lot of shame involved in sexual abuse, a lot of these girls blamed themselves. you know, they were treated to some degree by law enforcement, not the palm beach local police who handled the case, you know, wonderfully, but prosecutors, state and local prosecutors who dismissed their stories, sort of kind of categorized them as child prostitutes which we know

there is no such thing as child prostitutes. so to these young women now, they believe that they're finally getting vindicated, that, you know, a prosecutor in new york, jeffrey berman has taken up their cause and has promised to at least charge epstein and probably will charge others, i would think, given the amount of information that's coming out in some of these court documents that were unsealed yesterday. >> last question here, you know better than anyone, the breadth of the universe with jeffrey epstein at the center of it. help us understand the vastness of that universe. we were talking about principals involved by association. help us understand how large that universe is and give us your sense of how long this will go on. this is very much an untold story still. >> because he has so much money. he has money that nobody really understands where it came from,

and it could be something that authorities should look at. how did he get this. it seems like a never ending borrow of money, really, you know, ingratiate himself with science and academics and donating to political, you know, to senators and governors and to, you know, all kinds of people in political government world, so, you know, presidents, you know, and so i think that, you know, he used that money to get where he wanted and to get the kind of influence he wanted. >> julie last question here, where does your work go now. i imagine you were going to be covering the trial, focused on that side of the story. you mentioned the fact that there is all of this money involved. where do your interests lie now that we know that jeffrey epstein has done. >> it's two pronged. remember, this case started down

here in florida. there's still a lot of questions about how the local prosecutors begin with, sort of let this slip through his fingers and didn't see to charge. you know, when the police showed up to execute that search warrant, you know, all of his comput computers were gone. somebody tipped him off. you know, the palm beach sheriff is very very powerful. you know, there is now an investigation looking into why epstein was able to get a work release. as a sex offender who molested all of these girls is allow to go out on work release every day for 12 hours a day, and to greet visitors, as if he's not even in jail as all. there's a lot of questions in florida about, you know, who was

responsible for this, and who possibly, and beyond that, there are still people like stephen maxwell, i'm sure prosecutors will be looking at other people as well who were helping him. >> julie brown, we thank you for the time this morning, thank you for for the work you have done on the story. very quickly, i want to go to jonathan dean just for an update. give us the latest of what we know about the death of jeffrey epstein that reportedly took place this morning. >> the latest is at 6:39 a.m., the fire department was called for a man in distress. he was taken to a downtown hospital. he was pronounced dead about an hour later at 7:30. several sources tell us it appears to be a hanging suicide in his cell and that jeffrey epstein was found dead this morning. he was on suicide watch, and in

an isolated cell previously. one senior official telling us he was recently taken off suicide watch but remained isolated in his own cell with increased spot checks. we are awaiting additional confirmation, and a statement from the bureau of prison to provide some additional clarity on that. jeffrey epstein we are told was having a very difficult time adjusting to prison life. he was spending an inordinate about of time meeting with his lawyers in the visitor room, hours and hours every day because he did not like being up in his cell, did not like being in the area with the other inmates that had been going on for several weeks now since his incarceration there. and again, he did have that previous incident a couple of weeks ago where they were looking into whether he had already tried to take his own life or do some kind of ruse to transfer out of there, but again, jeffrey epstein found dead this morning by apparent suicide. >> thank you very much. i appreciate that update.

thanks to everyone who joined me onset. it was not the show we set out to do. i appreciate you all being here. we'll be back in a moment. my colleague joe reid y reid is to pick up the coverage after this break. pick up the coverag this break ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase. ♪ work so hard ♪ give it everything you got ♪ strength of a lioness ♪ tough as a knot ♪ rocking the stage ♪ and we never gonna stop ♪ all strength, no sweat. ♪ just in case you forgot ♪ all strength. ♪ no sweat secret. all strength. no sweat. what might seem like a small cough can be a big bad problem for your grandchildren. babies too young to be vaccinated against whooping cough are the most at risk for severe illness.

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all right. good morning, welcome to "am joy." we have a lot to cover including massive i.c.e. raids in mississippi that left hundreds of children without their parents. donald trump's strange, strange visit to two communities still reeling from mass shootings. we've got breaking news to begin with today. jeffrey epstein, the financier and convicted sex offender who was in jail on charges of sex trafficking girls as young as 14 yae years old to other rich and powerful men has been found dead in her cell in a suspected suicide. three officials familiar with the matter tell nbc news that epstein was found dead at 7:30 this morning, dead by hanging. just last month, epstein was

found injured in his cell after what was called a possible suicide attempt. the news of his death comes one day after newly unsealed court documents provided disturbing new details of what was going on inside epstein's homes and how his associates recruited young women and girls. the documents were filed as part of a defamation lawsuit brought by one of epstein's alleged victims in 2015, against a long time confidant of epstein's. according to "the new york times," the documents among the most expansive sets of materials publicly disclosed in the 13 years since mr. epstein was charged in sex crimes include depositions, police incident reports, photographs, receipts, flight logs and a memoir written by a woman who says she was a sex trafficking victim of mr. ensteen ae epstein and his acquaintances. she says she