found injured in his cell after what was called a possible suicide attempt. the news of his death comes one day after newly unsealed court documents provided disturbing new details of what was going on inside epstein's homes and how his associates recruited young women and girls. the documents were filed as part of a defamation lawsuit brought by one of epstein's alleged victims in 2015, against a long time confidant of epstein's. according to "the new york times," the documents among the most expansive sets of materials publicly disclosed in the 13 years since mr. epstein was charged in sex crimes include depositions, police incident reports, photographs, receipts, flight logs and a memoir written by a woman who says she was a sex trafficking victim of mr. ensteen ae epstein and his acquaintances. she says she met him when he was

16. one of the powerful men who counted epstein as a friend. ms. jufrey says neither trump never victimized her. first of all, how do we confirm that this was a suicide? what do we know about the circumstances surrounding mr. epstein's death. >> we're hearing that it was a death by hanging which is far and away the most common way inmates commit suicide in prison. the second most common is drug overdose. they can hoard their meds and maybe overdose that way. but more than likely, this is a hanging, and what they do is they look for objects in the cell and the challenge here is finding and creating a cell that doesn't have a lot of places to hang and use ripped up bedding or other fixtures that inmates can use to hang themselves. metropolitan correction center

should have a count at midnight, at 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m., and they actually have to see, visually see the inmate, so there's going to be a lot of questions, many questions about when the count was, when he was found and what the response was. >> well, there was a previous incident that was said to potentially have been an attempted suicide, so was he on suicide watch? >> i'm hearing that he may have been on suicide watch and taken off suicide watch but there still are a lot of questions about what that earlier incident was, whether or not officials or medical providers saw it just as maybe a cry for help and not a serious suicide throat. if you look at the bureau of prison's policies on suicide prevention, they take any reference to suicide, any expression of suicidal intent very seriously, and you're supposed to refer everything to the psychology department immediately. there are going to be questions about where he was housed. >> is this a maximum security facility he was in?

he's accused of serious crimes. it seems odd just to the casual viewer, right, that the person not only who was accused of serious crimes over many many many years, had been convicted of being a sex offender before but also knew powerful people. the stories that are coming out from unsealed documents that we saw this week show that he had associations with and was facilitating children for sex to other powerful people. somebody with that much information, with that much to offer potentially to prosecutors, how was he just left on his own. i think that's what a lot of people are going to ask. how was he on his own not being watched 24/7. >> he was a pretrial detainee. this is not like he would be someone who is housed at a super max facility such as the one in colorado. he has not yet been convicted. so it's a slightly different classification, a way of looking at things. he's at mcc metropolitan correctional center and the statistics show far and away,

more likely to commit suicide are pretrial detainees and within the first few days or weeks of their detention. and that's exactly where jeffrey epstein was. it's only been a couple of weeks, if that, since he was held without bail. since he had his bail hearing and bail was denied, but far and away, detainees, people awaiting their trial, and particularly people charged and convicted of sexes of sex offenses are at high risk of suicide, more than prisoners who have been convicted and serving their sentence, at super max or minimum security. >> and knowing general what our layman's knowledge of prison culture is, people who are awaiting trial on or been convicted of sex crimes are at bigger risk of being attacked by other inmates. did other inmates have access to the facility. >> i believe he was in a single cell and it's interesting because even the martial

service, it's more likely, psychologically, if you have somebody in your cell with you, you're less likely to commit suicide, somebody's there with eyes on you all the time, even if it is another inmate. >> stay with me. don't go anywhere. let me add to the table, jonathan dienst, lisa bloom, paul butler, all of you guys are joining us now. let me go to you jonathan dienst first. i guess the same question to you, if somebody who was accused of something this serious, one would think that they would be watched 24/7, right, because whether or not they are at risk of hurting themselves or being hurt by other prisoners because of what they are accused of. it is odd that somebody would be all alone, on their own, to be able to do something like what is alleged to have happened with mr. epstein. >> right. he was certainly being watched more closely, the 24/7 is a

realistic expectation. that is a question to be determined. he did have this previous incident which was an apparent suicide or attempt or cry for help, and they was moved to a cell in isolation and was under increased watch. we're told he was put on suicide watch for a time. one senior official telling us recently he was taken off suicide watch. we're awaiting a statement from the bureau of prisons for confirmation and to explain exactly what the situation was. he was in his own cell. it was a death by suicide. this happened around 6:30 this morning. he was discovered in distress. an ambulance was called. he was taken to a hospital a short distance away, where about an hour later, at 7:30, he was pronounced dead, death by hanging. the leading theory as to how he took his own life. that is the latest in terms of

the investigation. jeffrey epstein we're told was having a very difficult time acclimating to life at the mcc. he was not going to the rooftop exercise facility, for example, he was spending almost all of his free time with his attorneys down in the visiting center. we're told he was literally paying his attorneys to come visit him and spend hour after hour in the lawyer room so he didn't have to spend time in the cell or in the area where other inmates are. for a time when he was first there, he did have a cell mate, and then that incident happened, and there was a question, was it a suicide attempt, was he beaten by the inmate. the investigation was underway by suicide attempt being the leading theory. he was moved to a separate cell, placed on suicide watch and that would have meant, no sheets, minimal clothing, extra eyes, as to whether and when they took

him off suicide watch, his accommodations may have changed d he have bedding, a full set of clothes. you hear this periodically, they still manage to take their own life using the pants that they were wearing, perhaps using something else that they do have access to in the cell, so the question is how realistic is it given what was in that cell, so we need to wait and hear from the bop what he had access to and how he in fact took his own life, but again, he was in his own cell and he was being watched more closely, but as you heard, likely over hours, not 24/7. >> jonathan, can i ask you this question, at what point will the public fuind out. that's exactly the information people want to know, if he was still on suicide watch, what did he have in the cell, if he was on the suicide watch, he wouldn't have sheets, the implements that he could use to

hang himself. they're saying it's death by strangulation. when will we find out what did he have? >> that's a good question. we're told the bureau of prisons is going to be putting out a statement sometime this morning. i doubt that initial statement is going to have very much information except confirming the death. i would presume there's going to be an investigation inside the mcc as to how this happened, thousand this took place, and that will take some time, and it will probably be a little time before, if at all, we get the content contents of his cell. again, if that's true, they evaluated him and took him off suicide watch but kept him in isolation with extra eyes and ears, if he's being checked on, it could explain that window of time. >> let's bring paul butler into this. jeffrey epstein obviously did a lot of horrible things. he also knew people that did a

lot of horrible things. what happens to a prosecutor that has everything in his homes, his homes were raided, in the islands were raids, in florida, in new york, what happens to that information and will the public still be able to ti find out what he knew about other offenders that he facilitated. >> the criminal investigation is against epstein. if in developing leads and these will have to be followed. obviously they won't have mr. epstein. here's why i think that's important. suicide is the number one cause of death in prison. if someone dies while they're incarcerated most likely it's because they have taken their own life. homicide is going to have to be part of investigation by the u.s. marshal service and the fbi will get involved. here's why homicide has to be looked at.

mr. epstein was probably looking at prison for the rest of his life. federal prosecutors have an extremely strong case against him, and so he almost certainly would have been convicted if the case had gone to trial. he probably would not have gotten any kind of favorable plea deal because there was so much controversy about the plea deal in florida. his only hope would have been if among these extremely powerful people he cultivated, he had information on one of those feem and prosecutors -- those people, and prosecutors were more interested in implicating that person than mr. epstein. prisons are violent places, inmates are more likely to take their own lives, but the question will have to be asked, could another inmate have been set up to take mr. epstein's life. >> it seems that is logical, and i'm glad you said that. the question when you have a

suicide is to stay with you, paul, is whether or not this person was simply depressed by the allegations against them, losing their luxurious lifestyle as mr. deinst, having lived in luxury while abusing children all of these decades. it could have been depression about his change of circumstances. it could have been the fact that he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison, that could have been bothering him, but there is the fact on the table that he had the potential to implicate other people. a lot of famous names have been thrown around based on unsealed documents, a judge just allowed to come out, lots of people who are well known coming out. does that mean those people who have been named and unnamed essentially are free as a bird now that he is gone? >> part of the investigation will be what he knew about other people. prosecutors will have to follow those leads.

we're talking about extremely unphone liu influential people, royalty, business people, including for a time, donald trump. again there's no evidence that any of those people were involved in mr. epstein's nefarious and illegal affairs, but again, he would have had the information more than anyone else about what they knew, what they were involved with, and now he is no longer there to provide that testimony. that testimony would have been his only realm to not staying in prison for the rest of his life. >> let me go to lisa bloom on this. you have represented people who have been victims of sexual abuse and who have stepped forward to, you know, try to take action to get justice in that sense. what should people, the victims be thinking now, now that this man is gone, however he was, you know, whether he took himself out or whether it was something

else, what do they do now? >> thank you, joy, and our focus should be on the victims. i currently represent two jeffrey epstein victims, spoken to several others, happy to speak to any for free and confidentially. this is an important time for victims, now. they can still bring a civil case against his estate, and we are on the verge of filing one. we have started out with my epstein clients, working with law enforcement, cooperating with the prosecutors in new york because we thought that was an important first step. of course with his death, the criminal case goes away, but i want all victims to know that they can still proceed against his estate. and i'm calling today, upon his estate to freeze all of his assets and not disburse them, and hold them so his victims can get full and fair compensation for the lifelong injuries he's caused them. i have sat with my clients as they have cried and talked about how their life was changed forever by this predator, how

they couldn't trust men, how their self-esteem was shattered, how their sexual relationships were destroyed, how their careers were derailed. they deserve compensation, and i don't wish suicide on anyone. i don't gloat upon anyone's death, but i will tell victims, at least you have one less thing to worry about now, because most victims were still in fear with him, even with him in prison, they were afraid he could come after him in some way. that's not going to happen now. i hope we will go forward and focus on the victims and take care of them as they really really need that help. >> right, and you know, mimi, let me get you in on this as well. as far as the victims, i think lisa makes an important point, the important people are the people jeffrey epstein victimized and trafficked to other people. what happens regarding the previous plea deal that he was able to get, a very sweet deal where he could leave jail six days a week to go and have a private car pick him up and take

him to work. the fact that that happens, what happens to any cases that deal with that, that deal with the prosecutors and whoever was involved in letting this guy essentially walk the first time. what happens to those cases, or is there a case. is there a way to still hold people to account? >> well, there is still a civil proceeding pending in florida. and there are now new, you know, criminal investigations as i understand it at the state level in florida, all looking into that plea deal, and there is an investigation in the department of justice and the office of professional responsibility. all of those, frankly, will be the least affected by this, in the sense that, those are focused on the actions of law enforcement and prosecutors in florida at the time, you know, acosta, as we know, the florida sheriff, so those in some ways will be the least affected, and will still, i think, be able to provide some small, hopefully

measure of justice for these victims as lisa was just talking about because i think part of getting justice for the victims is getting answers to the question of how in the world this was allowed to happen, that he got such a sweet deal the first time around, i don't even want to call it a sweet dial, such a travesty of justice, a failure of our justice system. i think those answers are still very much worth pursuing, regardless of where jeffrey epstein is or frankly even how he died. those are obviously important questions too, but i think getting answers to what happened the first time around is very very important to our justice system going forward, to these victims personally. i think those will be pursued and i hope we will get some light and answers on those. >> we're looking for answers here, gabe sherman, let me bring you in here as well. i'm looking at a politico

article here about jeffrey epstein. it starts as follows, a trove of documents unsealed detail allegations on alleged victim of wealthy financier jeffrey epstein, while working as a teenage locker room attendant, she was recruited to give epstein massages that involved sexual activity. 2,000 pages of records released by the manhattan based second court of appeals show the same woman, virginia roberts claims to have had sex with a series of men, including former politicians at epstein's direction while working as a staff masseuse for the investment adviser who came under investigation. this woman says she was not abused by donald trump, not by bill clinton, but she did name other people. i'm wondering for the trump world, not to be morbid, breathing a sigh of relief, jeffrey epstein can't talk about donald trump anymore, right? >> jeffrey epstein can't but

many other people can, and we should point out that this is clearly not the, as we have just heard earlier in the block, the end of the investigative thread here. i mean, epstein's alleged madame ga la maxwell was close to many in trump's world, and she is very much at risk. and the civil lawsuit that virginia roberts is for investigation against maxwell is moving forward. there will be further disclosures in the civil case. while epstein's voice has been silenced and that has gone dark, there's clearly a lot more that's come to come out, and i got a message from a very powerful person on wall street, someone who operated in the circles epstein traveled in, and he was as shocked as we are now that epstein apparently was able to commit suicide, you know, given the circumstances and so,

you know, people at the highest levels of society from politics to wall street are going to want answers as to how this was allowed to happen. >> exactly. a little bit more from the article in just a moment. in a deposition excerpts made public on friday, she was working as a spa attendant at marla go. she was approached by epstein's long time friend, g maxwell, wh in the spa were you when you approached by maxwell, maxwell's attorney asked. just outside the locker room sitting where the other girl who works there usually sits. i was reading a book on massage therapy. she noticed i was reading the massage book, and i started to have a chitchat with her just about, you know, the body and the anatomy and how i was interested in it, and she told me she knew somebody who was looking for a traveling masseuse. if the guy likes you, it will work out for you, you'll travel,

make good money. there's a lot, gabe, that this set of documents. we don't know how much more there is. we don't know what prosecutors got. and while this woman does not accuse donald trump of anything, the fact that his place, his home, mar-a-lago was a recruiting center allegedly for jeffrey epstein, that's still out there, and does that story die? >> clearly not, and you know, joy, read many of the documents that were unsealed and those were only the first bunch in a much larger trove that the court is going through, and releasing. they are chilling. i think partly the story won't die because we are going to see in grizzly detail how this sex trafficking ring was allegedly allowed to function, and you know, that one of epstein's accusers in a deposition that was released yesterday said that epstein told her that he needed to have, you know, three or gory

because it was like eating to him. he had a deep disturbing sickness that we are going to see in the light of day. that's why i think the slow drip of details will keep the pressure on the investigating authorities to get to the bottom, a, of how had suicide was allowed to happen and what other coconspirators who were granted immunity in the deal earlier in florida are out there to be prosecuted. >> joyce vance, let me bring you in as well. it is mind boggling that somebody accused of this level of crime and criminality against children for so long who got an easy deal before, and is now in jail, is not watched -- is allowed to be on their own to the point where we're now saying that they allegedly committed suicide. i think a lot of people are going to want to have questions answered as to how this could have possibly happened because this is a robbery to the people

who are victims of this man. i agree with lisa bloom, at least he's not going to be able to hurt people anymore, but there's no justice going to be served to him now. i think a lot of people want answers as to how this could have happened and whether or not it's clear that that's what happened, that it was a suicide, joyce. >> you're exactly right, a lot of people will have questions and that will start with the federal prosecutors who brought the case against epstein. there will be a thorough investigation into whether or not this was a suicide. i think paul butler made some very appropriate comments about the need to determine that it was in fact a suicide as opposed to some other form of an skpins then the prosecutors will begin -- of an incident, and then the prosecutors will begin to think about what they can continue to do to bring justice to the victims in this case. this sort of suicide, which is a relatively unusual thing to happen in a federal case with a

defendant kwhowho's been under sort of a suicide watch, will function to deny the victims justice. prosecutors, i think, will go the extra mile here. they will see if they can bring cases against additional defendants. they will find a way to ensure that the victims', ultimately those victims do get their day in court one way or another. >> and do those prosecutors automatically then take custody of all of his papers, tapes, anything he had in his home. you have former governor bill richardson who denies having done nothing wrong, george mitchell, former politician. do these people then get investigated. do prosecutors start going through his papers. what happens? >> the case against epstein ends with his had death but it's entirely possible that they have ongoing grand jury investigation or ongoing investigation of other defendants. the papers that were released yesterday come in a civil case and it's important to remember

that they're the allegations, the evidence given by some of the witnesses, some of the parties in that civil case and they'll need to be tested and so federal prosecutors, i think, will want to continue to look at that evidence to determine whether there are any other potential target defendants, whether there was a conspiracy to cover up the sex trafficking ring, which seems to be a very likely outcome, given the plea deal, the travesty of justice that mimi refers to down in florida. i don't think that this case ends with jeffrey epstein's death. >> let me go back to jonathan dienst, are we expecting public statements from the people who ran this jail as to how on earth this person was alone, allegedly, and was able to either remove himself or be removed from the scope of justice, you know, by leaving this world. is there going to be a public statement. are you expecting anything today? >> there will be a public

statement, i'm told, i don't think it's going to answer all the questions i have. i think it's proenl going to be very basic in nature given -- probably going to be very basic in nature, given what we saw after the previous incident. they did not say much except to confirm that something had taken place. there's an incredible photo on the new york post web site showing epstein being wheeled in by paramedics, working hard to revoo revive him as he's wheeled into the downtown hospital. he was found around 6:30 this morning. we are told now from five sources he was alone in his cell and that suicide appears to be the leading cause here. but of course as you're hearing, there will be an investigation. in the previous incident, there was less clarity in part because he shared a cell with a roommate. the defense lawyer for the other inmate said the two were getting

along fine. no assault took place and epstein apparently had tried to take his own life in that previous incident. how serious an attempt that was, there's a lot of debate and question about that, whether it was just a cry out for attention. again, we are told from multiple sources, he was having a very difficult time inside the mcc. he's an accused child sex offender, he is accustomed to the life of luxury with his mansions and now he's sitting in the mcc which is a very secure facility where drug dealers, terrorists, you name it, are held in that facility. he was put in a separate wing for, you know, high risk inmates. first he had a roommate. then after that initial incident, he was moved to his own cell and for a time was on suicide watch. we only have one official but it's a good one, one official telling us he was recently taken off suicide watch, but remained in an isolated cell.

we're waiting to hear clarity on that detail from the bureau of prisons to see exactly when and if he was taken off suicide watch and what that meant for a, the items and clothing he had in his own cell. they are no sheets, there are no blankets, you are watched quite carefully but of course we also hear stories about people who were on suicide watch in isolation and wind up using their pants or whatever minimal clothing they are provided. the question is how closely was he being watched, is the expectation 24/7 or is it hourly, is it every three hours, what is the correct protocol with an inmate like this, and i think those are some of the questions that need to be raised and need to be answered. but everything we're being told from now five sources is that this is an apparent suicide. >> jonathan dienst, great

reporter, thank you very much, really appreciate you being here to give us some answers on that. i have a lot more questions. everybody take a quick breather and we'll come right back. behr presents: outdone yourself. staining be done... and stay done through every season. behr semi-transparent stain. find it exclusively at the home depot.

fighting back tears, 11-year-old magdelina, expressed her government about not being with her dad. >> government, let my parent be free. he didn't do nothing. he's not a criminal. we have more on the breaking news story we spoke about earlier, the jeffrey epstein story but i want to turn to what you saw, the heartbreaking scene in mississippi this week. little kids crying for their parents after i.c.e. seized 680 workers at seven poultry palant in mississippi. it played out day after one of the biggest massacres of latin x people in this country in its history. we're going to have much more on donald trump's weird and creepy massacre and a mass killing in dayton, ohio, and how americans demanding gun reform are turning their attention to moscow mitch.

let's go back to the raids that underscored donald trump's lack of empathy. one of the chicken processing plants targeted by the isis raids is owned by koch foods, but that has no relation to the koch brothers. it is a privately owned illinois based company, one of the largest food businesses in the united states, owned by the 328th richest person in america, a man named joseph grendies, worth an estimated $3.3 billion. it employs 13,000 employees nationwide and according to the "chicago tribune", the company slaughters more than 12 million chickens per week. and it contracts with up to 5,000 chicken farmers at any given time. koch supplies chicken nuggets to burger king, kroger and walmart. one year ago, almost to the same week, the same company, koch

agreed to a lawsuit, another filed on behalf of workers by the equal employment opportunity commission. the $3.75 million settlement came after an eight yearlong legal fight. the workers at eeoc allege this koch subjected hispanic employees and female employees to a hostile work environment and treatment based on their race, national origin and sex, and then retaliated against those who complained. many of the workers seized in wednesday's raid were represented by a union, the united food and commercial workers union which is now trying to organize legal help for those workers. bishop joseph copatch head of the diocese of jackson, mississippi, said in the jesuit magazine america this week, some of the families affected by the action appear traumatized and though about 300 of the 680 people arrested were released on thursday, the effect of the raids will intensify in the

coming weeks. koch has a rocky history with black farmers, a story details how koch cut them off one by one, and although usda found evidence of discrimination, koch has found no penalty since the trump administration has cut off enforcement. days after i.c.e. immigration raids took hundreds of their workers, koch has already announced a job fair on monday. joining me now is isaac barnesdor f, maria theresa kumar, president and ceo of vote latino. thank you for being here. i want to start with this company. a year ago to the day of the raids, almost to the day, they were -- they settled a big lawsuit because of discrimination against these workers. i'm going to try to find details of it. tell us about that discrimination case. >> the allegations in the

lawsuit are very serious. really shocking allegations. managers throwing chicken at workers, groping women from behind, asking employees for sex, asking employees to pay them to use the bathroom, or get transferred to a different position. the company, which i should note, did not admit wrong doing as part of the settlement, their response to the allegations, which brings us right back to the immigration, the subject of the raids, was that the women were making up these allegations so that they could get protected status in the u.s. as people who are victims of crime. >> and these workers, do we know of any of the workers who received the settlements were among those taken up in the raids? >> i don't know for certain. my guess would be no, based on how much turnover there are in these plants and how long employees tend to stay there. i would be surprised. >> before we move forward, this allegation by black farmers that

they were also harmed by this company, briefly describe that for us. >> so out of 173 farmers who are on contract to grow chicken in mississippi for koch foods, for this same facility as of a few years ago, there were four black farmers and over the course of a few years, that went down to 0 because the company was, according to the farmers, making demands of them that it wasn't making of other farmers that caused them to go out of business and lose their farms. >> the way that joseph grundy has described the empire, we produce eggs, we take the eggs to our hatcheries, hatch the baby chickens and at one day old we take them to contract farmers, and they provide the husbandry to grow the chickens. they basically say they were in the corn business, they hatch the chickens and give them to farmers. the contractors basically grow the chicken. >> the farmer looks after and takes care of the chicken for a

few weeks while they're growing to be old enough to slaughter but the company controls the feed, the chickens, they control who gets the high quality feed or enough feed, who gets healthiest chicken and sick chickens. >> i recommend everybody read isaac's story in pro publica. maria, here's the thing, if a worker is in a facility where you have these kinds of raids and there is also facility who have issues with the treatment of workers like them who are latin x, what does that do to the ability of the workers who speak up. you not only have the potential of being fired, let go, you have a union to protect you from that, now there is another way to make you compliant. the threat of deportation. >> so this is joy coming on the

heels of a very difficult week, if you're latino or latina in the united states of america. it begins to feel like, oh, we don't want you around. we will, in this case, not deport you immediately but we're going to come in and take you from your workplace. the reason why i'm pausing is because it's a very sad thing that i'm about to say, but having just been in el paso, people were saying to me, oh, my god, what we just lived through in el paso, this is like salt on the wound that now our fellow latinos, latina are being picked up in a poultry processing plant in mississippi. we understand the connectionsdi here. >> the claim is that they were not given advance notice. >> i'm sorry. i'm going to have a hard time believing a white house that lies consistently. so i'm sorry about that. but i'm a journalist and i work

in fact. and the fact is that this white house has lied consistently about so many things, so they're probably lying about this. brings me no joy as a journalist to have to say that. but yeah, your question is that what is this going to do, well, it's being have been effective, right, oh, my gosh, what happened, how many phone calls did our fellow latinos and latinas get this entire week saying i'm aphrasfraid, i'm notg up. my own mother in chicago saying i'm not going to go to the outdoor music concert that i always go to. that's just human beings, that's just regular latinos and latinas, many of them with papers and they are expressing fear. you're going to tell me that targeting workers in a plant like this is not going to have an impact. it is, and i think in part that's what we were talking about, right, that's in part what people are afraid of. latin american workers, i'm not saying we're making some generalizations here, but i did cover, i have been in several

poultry processing plants, the majority of latinos, african-americans also, the latin americans who come van experienced in unionizing and if they are working with union organizers who are african-american or white who are traveling down, they understand about unionizing, it is no surprise they would have unionized to take on what you thankfully were able to reveal. that's a scary thing, for, again, what we bring to this country that seems to be such a threat. >> and you know, i went to a deep dive on this plant. >> thank you, though. >> i have a whole stack of things i have been reading about it. and one of the things that is both tragic and sort of timely and interesting is that there was a change in the -- in who worked these chicken plants over time, that it was mostly white workers for a long time. and then suddenly the workers became more black and then really more latino, like really, to the point where the

population of medicaorton, mississippi, the latino population skyrocketed, so this is the workers who are the base of this. and a lot of those workers who were working in the morton plants, they came from el paso. so you have a directly familial connection, in the place where the largest massacre of latino people happened and the place where the largest raid in recent memory, in anyone's memory, ever, so they are now connected like literally from the same city. your thoughts on how much deeper that makes the pain for your community, for this community. >> so i want to -- the president was landing in el paso all around the same exact time that this raid was taking place. the idea that this was a coincidence is hard to swallow only because the president last time was yelling at his staff when the raids were supposed to happen about six weeks, and nothing came up.

so this is just really difficult to swallow. let's be clear, the latino community has been under attack since the moment the president went down the escalator. what individuals need to understand is we understood what he was saying when he criminalized a whole people saying we were rapist and criminals. it wasn't just for undocumented individuals. he was twaalking about the whol swath. it's not just the rhetoric. he tries to disinfranchise by creating a citizenship question on the census, and creating fear so that american citizens have to carry passports because they are afraid of being racially profiled. it doesn't matter if they have been here for three or four generations, they can speak perfect english. we know what's happening, the terror that happened in el paso was something that i think was our 9/11. the person that jumped into his car, it wasn't like he didn't have a brown community in his backyard. no, he wanted to exact maximum

pain. he drove nine hours to the safest city in the country, that is 85% hispanic, and he wanted to be incredibly effective. and he was, the terror and the sadness and the anger among the latino community, i can't underscore enough. this is how we see it. folks want us to basically provide for their families, folks want us to basically provide for their meals, provide for their parents but they don't want us to have political enfranchisement. they don't want us to be equals in the american fabric. we have been here nor generations. folks in el paso want to remind us, they did not move, the border moved them. we are having a serious race crisis because we are oppressing a group of people that put their heads down for the most part, and all they want is respect. we are not going to be able to have this moment where we can actually say how do we bring the american fabric into this, and the biggest disappointment in the election of donald trump was that fellow americans thought that he was joking.

latinos didn't think he was joking, we've heard clearly that he was going to basically put a target on our back, and sadly what happened this past week has been part of what he has been sewing, and we need the american people to say enough is enough, to come together as allies and actually put a stop to this threat. >> and you know, this country obviously has a history of wanting to have people who were not wide feed and care for them and care for their children and not be full citizens. this isn't like a new thing. it's shifted from black to brown and occasional back to black. >> and native americans were enslaved. it's always been about people who didn't get to be citizens but who they really wanted you to feed them and take care of the kids. it's just history. i want to come back to you on this question, isaac. a lot of people don't think about where our food comes from. we don't think about it. we did, by the way, reach out to koch foods for comment. they were not the only company rated, pearl river, peco foods,

a huge company, you get your chicken nuggets. it's coming from places like this. how big is this industry, how big is mississippi in feeding us our chicken nuggets and chicken tenders and the things people take for granted and eat at burger king. >> people have probably eaten koch foods chicken even if they're not aware of it because if you buy chicken at burger king or walmart or places like that, that chicken may have been supplied by koch foods. >> it is a privately held company, they are one of the largest chicken companies in the united states, and these are very dangerous jury box. it's more dangerous working in a poultry processing plant than working in a coal mine or working in construction. there are very frequent rates of injuries like amputations or repetitive strain injuries and high turnover in the plants which is why there is a lot of labor coming from other countries, a lot of refugee

resettlement occurs at these plants and a lot of staffing agencies, so third parties that are going to other countries, bringing people over, providing housing for a certain amount of time. >> they pay them a lot? >> they pay them higher than other low skilled jobs because they need the incentives to get people to work under those conditions. >> how much are people make something. >> i have seen $17 an hour. >> and is mr. grundys who hired these people, just like donald trump hires people who are undocumented, uses their labor, is he in any trouble, did he get arrested along with everyone else? >> he obviously was not arrested this week. the u.s. attorneys office and i.c.e. have indicated there is an ongoing investigation that could include liability for the employer. >> just to wrap this up, what's really important is this is about the american south and demographic change. the american south, mississippi, alabama, this is what we are experiencing, and neighbors need to be helping neighbors in this

part of our country. >> the south is not just black and white, and people need to realize that. isaac, nice to meet you. thank you very much, your reporting is great. maria teresa kumar, thank you very much. we have to take another break. prz very much. we have to take another break. pr prevagen. healthier brain. better life. so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country.

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yes. >> that you were 14 years old? >> yes. he knew my age. he knew exactly who he was hanging out with, you know. i don't think he cared. i was telling him to stop, please stop, you know. >> and did he? >> no, he did not stop. he had no intentions of stopping. that's what he wanted, that's what he got. >> welcome back to "am joy." in july joyce shared her chilling account of being raped by jeffrey epstein when she was 14 and 15 years old. the incident occurred when epstein, who once hobnobbed with the most powerful people was accused of raping 14 underage girls who he lured to his house. now we're hearing that jeffrey epstein is dead. he was found dead in his cell in a suspected suicide. three officials familiar with the matter tell nbc news that epstein was found dead this morning at 7:30 a.m., death by

hanging. three months ago, he was found injured in his cell in what was called a possible suicide ta attempt. the news come after disturbing new details were brought out as what was happening in his home. in 2015, there was a lawsuit by a long-time confidant of epstein's. attorney lisa bloom, and joining by phone, gabriel sherman of "van did i fair" and msnbc legal analyst paul butler. i asked earlier to jonathan dean so i'll ask you the same question, should we expect to hear a public statement from the people running this jail as to, one, whether or not jeffrey epstein was still on suicide watch, if not, why not, and if not, what was in the cell with him that he could have used to

allegedly commit suicide? >> listen, joy, i imagine they will have to put out some kind of statement over the course of today. whether you're going to get definitive answers on those questions specifically will be a big issue. the important thing to remember about this facility is it's the metropolitan facility here in manhattan. it is not an official-run or state-run facility. it's a federal-run facility, department of justice. you would also expect to hear from the department of justice on this. you can imagine there will be an investigation launched. the big question, how is it that someone who they suspected may have tried to take his own life just a matter of weeks ago was actually able to take his own life last night. >> can we say this again? so this facility is run by the department of justice, meaning william barr's department of justice? >> that's right, and it's a facility that's been known to hold some very high-profile prisoners, including "el chapo."

i believe paul manafort was held there for a period of time. it's considered to be a very secure place. "el chapo" escaped for a number of times, they wanted to throw him in something where he wouldn't have that opportunity again. this is supposed to be a top-notch facility. again, how did it happen? that investigation has to be launched soon. sdp >> that's strange. that's strange. let me come to you, maria, because that's strange. i have a lot of friends who are police officers, my godfather is a police officer. i have no personal knowledge of the way it works, but my understanding was always that in a case of sex offense, a sex offender being put into a facility such as this, either solo, right, but we're told he was put in with a roommate which sounded odd just to my ear, and then after allegedly attempting something, either suicide or he is harmed before, then he goes into a solo cell and then he's somehow alone and able to allegedly commit suicide.

it sounds odd to me. >> so i just got off the phone with one of my sources who spent 31 years in prison and was in the prison in the same block as bill cosby. that's a pretty high-security facility. bill kcosby is checked on every 15 minutes. the other thing the person told me is there is no place to hang yourself in a prison cell. there is just no place to put anything. just go into a room that's kind of like, i don't know, an office space right here at msnbc. i walked in and i was like, there is no place to hang yourself. so it's illogical. he also said that -- i said, how could something like this happen, and this is where it starts getting pretty complicated in terms of the

evidence, in terms of will there be pictures of the body, will we have the coroner's report, will we see everything that was in the room? again, we don't have this information. but as somebody who spent 31 years in a prison and knows the prison culture, he said, these are people who will be targeted. he said, if epstein had been in general population, he would have been targeted. what does that mean? it means who are the cos? where is the footage? where is the footage, is what we need to be asking. we need to start putting freedom of information at request for the footage. we need to be doubly sure that this is the footage of exactly where he was being held. that's one way you can prove. by the way, i did cover a story, the strange death of dejesus who was on suicide watch in a detention facility in arizona, and he did commit suicide. while he was on suicide, he swallowed his sock because that

was the only way that he could do it because there's no place to hang anything. >> right. >> so there are a lot of questions, and people in prison understand this looks and sounds very, very fishy and we just getting preliminary reports from the prison. >> danny, you raised the question earlier in the hour about just all the questions that need to be asked. this is somebody who not only is high profile, who not only knew a lot of high profile people, that something just came out of court that name high-profile people, who was friends with the current president of the united states, who flew previous presidents of the united states around on his plane, who is alleged to have trafficked girls to a member of the royal family of britain. this is on the same level like a bill cosby. this is a famous person who is now in prison. he knows a lot about a lot of people, and as you said earlier, his only out at this point would be to talk about those people, so he's in this very vulnerable

situation. then you throw in the fact, which i did not know until, thank god, stephanie goss was sitting here and told me this, that this is now a facility under the control of the department of justice. and this department of justice does not exactly inspire confidence, let's just be blunt. william barr's justice department is not one you can readily simply rely upon and feel confident in. so what do we make of all this now that in this federal facility, this person was allowed to be alone long enough to either harm himself or be killed -- we don't know what happened. we simply don't know what happened. your thoughts? >> that's exactly right, joy. the investigation we noted is was another inmate clued in to help him? and was his suicide allowed to happen? he was a prime candidate for taking his own life.

why? his difficult adjustments to jail, his depression, his leaked outlook on his criminal case and his previous suicide attempt. i can say from a mississippi jail because we know how who rid the conditio -- horrid the conditions are in a mississippi jail. this was run by the department of justice. how was this allowed to happen? somehow mr. epstein allowed or set up to take his own life. >> danny, you had someone who attempted to be remanded to his own home to await trial, which sounds absurd, but this is someone who did not want to be locked up before a pending trial, who is very well known, who is a multi-decades sex offender. there is so much here that says watch this person. there is so much here that says

never stop watching this pepper. we just heard from maria that someone in the case of bill cosby was watching him every 15 minutes. something about this is wrong. >> there will be an investigation mostly because epstein's estate or family may actually have a case against the metropolitan detention center itself. i know it's not what we're talking about in the concept of civil liability because we're thinking of epstein's victims. but they will investigate because they're looking at potential liability. prisoners sue all the time and especially in cases of suicide, they sue because even pretrial detainees, like prisoners, they ever a constitutional right to adequate medical care, and that includes suicide prevention. to hold a facility liable, there must be what's called deliberate indifference. it's more than negligence. they have to be reckless in the face of knowledge that this person presented a substantial threat of suicide. not just a possibility, not just

a, this is something that could happen, but they have to show that it was substantial. and, just as you listed, there were several different things that may have given the reasonable person cause to believe that he was at risk. >> like the previous incident was also saying was an attempted suicide. it seems kind of strange, right, that someone who allegedly tried it before -- and i'll come to you in a second, lisa -- right, that would seem to be a pretty strong indication that he would need to be watched. by the way, who does the bureau of prisons report to? >> it's all under the doj. it's all part of the executive branch. >> perfect. lisa bloom, your thoughts. >> so jeffrey epstein's estate should not be bringing any lawsuits in connection with his death. instead they should start to do the right thing for his victims, something jeffrey epstein chs nev -- was never able to do for his lifetime.

he had 66 years of a wonderful life, freedom, wealth, famous friends which was decades more than he should have had if the first victims who had the courage to come out decades ago had been believed instead of had their accusations swept under the rug. now he is gone, and now his estate should be preserving his assets for the benefit of his many victims, victims who were imprisoned psychologically because he preyed on them. they were not able to have normal, healthy relationships. they suffer from depression, anxiety. these are who my clients who are epstein victims are dealing with. they were arrested before -- they even starred coted coming forward. i'm going to assume that the news today that it was a suicide is correct, and that suicide is evidence of guilt. mr. epstein was facing only two counts from the federal prosecutors even though dozens and dozens of women have accused

him. he was facing only two counts. he was a very, very wealthy man. if he had been innocent, if there had been reasonable doubt, he was in a perfect position to beat those counts. but i think he knew. he knew he was guilty. he knew that his money was not going to protect him. he knew he was going to spend the rest of his life in prison even just on those two counts, and his suicide today should be read loudly and clearly by everyone as consciousness of guilt that this man was a predator who destroyed many women's lives and let's keep those victims squarely in mind. >> maria kumar, he also knew who he accused. >> everything about this suicide smells so foul and part of it is it's under the watch of a white house who no one trusts. if he actually did commit suicide, what a coward. what a coward that he is doing

this in the face of not actually allowing these women to get the justice that they deserve, the fact that they were able to come guard a forward and be honest and brave in something that must be the most despicable piece of our own inner heart of, did you do something wrong? the justice system failed him. they failed him when they signed that agreement, they failed him again to make sure this man couldn't walk into his home and do business there, they failed him when they didn't have the appropriate people watching him to make sure he did not take his own life. in every single place, the government has failed him and they do deserve complete justice. >> let me read a couple statements by a victim. she said, i am angry jeffrey epstein won't have to face the survivors of his abuse in court. we have to live with the scars of his actions for the rest of our looifives while he will nev

face the consequences of the crimes he committed the pain and trauma he caused so many people. epstein is gone, but justice must still be served. i hope the authorities will pursue and prosecute his accomplices and enablers and ensure redress for his victims. senator ben sasse said, as a prooifrt matter, our house is praying for both epstein's family and the many women who were denied justice in this life. but as a matter of public policy, the government has failed these girls yet again. it is inexcusable that this rapist was not under constant suicide watch. these victims deserved to face their serial abuser in court. donald trump's name comes up

whenever jeffrey epstein's name comes up and other people, too. he's no longer a threat to those people because he can't talk about them anymore. i think one of the reasons people feel a lot of skepticism here is he's deprived these girls of justice, young women of justice, but he now goes silent. your thoughts? >> yes, presumably the d.a. and the state of new york is under siege of his assets and other properties. i think the onus falls on the other prosecutors to continue this investigation, follow it where it may lead, because as we've already seen and the documents that were unsealed yesterday of madam maxwell, this

was not the rogue behavior of a sick individual in jeffrey epstein, this was an operation that was facilitated by multiple people, and, you know, we need to find out more who has criminal exposure. the idea that these other co-conspirators were granted immunity in the bogus deal that was signed in epstein's florida case needs to be investigated. and just one last thing, i think beyond the president of the united states, there are a lot of people that i think owe the public answers. as i reported in "vanity fair," jeffrey epstein was socializing with the likes of bill gates, mark zuckerberg, elon musk, reed hoffman, harvard professors after his release from the so-called florida jail sentence that he served. this was a man who was still embraced by elite society after he was, you know, shown in

numerous press accounts and in other places to be a serial pedophile. and so people need to explain why they were still associating with this individual and why -- was it just money? what other favors was jeffrey epstein providing to people that allowed him to operate even after serving jail time as a convicted sex offender? >> stephanie gosk, i think that is the big question, right? this guy was associating with a lot of elite people, a lot of famous names. political celebrities as well as celebrity-celebrities, on and on a and on and on. what did we find out from the documents, about 2,000 pages of documents that were released on epstein that came out last week? what was in it? >> let me kind of set the stage for it a little bit. in a defamation case against

galynn maxwell, who you heard gabe say was a social madam for jeffrey epstein, she was sued for defamation because she denied those allegations, and she also accused epstein of abusing her as a child. essentially maxwell recruited these young women and then forced them to have sex not only with jeffrey epstein but other powerful men. there were two names listed in these documents we had not heard before, former new mexico governor bill richardson as well as senator jim mitchell. both of them released statements yesterday quickly denying the allegations, denying they had any association with this woman at all. since epstein has been arrested, we have not heard from galynn maxwell. we haven't seen her, we haven't heard from her, and the

suspicion all along was if there were going to be additional charges, she would be one of the people charged. >> we've heard a lot of names thrown around. alan dershowitz' name was one of the vpeople named and he has denied it as well. >> and there's a document from a separate alleged victim that exonerates him. i didn't see that personally. thfls not a complete release of these documents. we're expecting more. there was context here that was not provided in what we saw. but again, dershowitz actually pushed to get these documents released, saying that they would exonerate him against these allegations. >> we're talking about -- you've been following this case a lot. this goes across outside the united states. these allegations go to people not just in the u.s. >> yes, and virginia roberts allegedly said she had sex with prince andrew who has denied

that himself. in deposition she talks about an unnamed prince. she talked about hotels unnamed. there are other few potential powers that could be identified and the question is whether galynn maxwell has those names. >> i'm being told to go to break, but what happens to those people? if they're named, does it go away or something something happen to that information? >> it goes away to the extent that epstein's case is over but it doesn't go away in that those other people could be prosecuted. if there is, they can get them if they exist abroad. >> stephanie gosk, maria

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in the first three-quarters of this year, we've had double the number of arrests than the prior year. the majority of deomestic terrorism cases that we've investigated are motivated by some version of what you might call white supremacist violence. >> fbi director christopher wray

spoke just weeks ago about the rising number of domestic terrorism arrests fueled by white supremacy this year alone. but he wasn't the first to sound the alarm. back in 2009, the obama administration's department of homeland security released a report on the growing threat of right wing extremism in the united states. the dhs withdrew the report after a freakout by politicians and pundits. in 2009, media compiled this research of media outrage. >> the department of home land secure, dr. dobson, is warning law enforcement officials about the rise in right wing extremist activity. now, for example, they would define it as people maybe think they would not be controlling our borders. >> isn't it interesting that the media has jumped all over it when there are no examples of it. there are no timothy mcveys out there right now. they're making a big deal out of something that hasn't happened

and may not happen. >> it seems like they're more concerned with the threat here at home than they are with the threat abroad. >> well, now that we are seeing the manifestation of those warnings about extremism, what will donald trump's justice department do about it? joining me now is darrell lamont jenkins and christian piccolini, author of "white american youth." did a pronounce your name wrong? >> you got it. >> oh, good. we know that the arrests related to white supremacists comprise 78% of the domestic terrorism related arrests. we had christopher wray say specifically that is the problem. we have the fbi association issue a statement saying, the fbiaa continues to urge congress to make domestic terrorism a federal crime. that would ensure that fbi agents and prosecute are orz have the best tools to fight domestic terrorism. as someone like yourself who

came out of extreme terrorism, do you have the confidence that this government will do something about it? >> no. hate is not a hoax. african-americans were targeted in charleston. mexican americans were targeted in el paso. this is something that's happening in synagogues and mosques and in platces all acros our country, and the rhetoric coming out of the administration is fueling it. we're seeing more and more of this. i don't have faith the administration will be able to counter it. >> so saying a lot of negative thi things about a certain group and individually people act on it, so there is a connection to it. tell us about this story. you were in this world of nationalism and exited it. >> i was recruited when i was 17 years old into the first neo-nazi skinhead group. i spent eight years as part of that until i was 23, both as a leader and a member. i created propaganda. but then in 1996, i received the

compassion from the people i least deserved it from at a time i least deserved it, and that was a powerful thing for me. >> when you were a young man in your 20 and say s and in this w the president had said repeatedly that certain people were a stain on the united states, used language that sort t of -- if you had had that level saying this to a particular group, what would that have done for you? >> that's cannotexactly what we wanted. first of all, we didn't want to support the government, we were anti-government. but we installed our own version of the government. what's coming out now is identical to things we said. i actually wrote lyrics that had the words "invasion" and "animal." >> let's go to you, darrell. this is something you studies, this is your expertise.

i want to go to christopher wray talking about their idealogies. here it is. >> we in the fbi don't investigate idealogy no matter how repugnant. we investigate violence. any extreme of idealogy, when it turns to violence, we're all over it. >> is that the way to go about it? >> they do investigate idealogies and they raise a red flag every time they see certain things being bought into by various groups. that's one of the frustrating things about the time when they de-escalated that dhs report about ten years ago, because i remember that. i also remember right after they walked that report back, we had seven people dead in four separate incidents in three months. there was the tellie vashooting

that were made by ideaologists. their idealogy was to kill and hurt people. that is their job, not to ignore it. >> as you investigate this, as you look at this in your free radicals project -- i'm sorry, you're the one people's project. do you come across a lot of black ideaologists? now what they're going to focus on is black extremists. do you see that? >> no, i don't. the only people i see of color, they're hanging out with the boys and giving information to my nationalist social movement. that's the kind of people we're concerned about. >> there is a big debate over whether or not it's fair to call donald trump a white supremacist

or white nationalist. i tend to use the term white nationalist, because people want to believe this is fundamentally a white country. that's what nationalist means. do you think it's appropriate to talk as a white nationalist? >> i think his supporters would agree with that. >> they think he's a leader? sdp >> they think his policies are white policies. they want him to do what he does to make america white again. >> to me there is a difference between racism and white nationalists, right? there are people who can't watch the news because there's too many black people on it. but if you're a white nationalist, not only do you dislike people of other races and you think they're better than them, you actually think the country is white. >> it's an idealogy based on violence. in order to secure their existence, they believe, and i

used to believe, that they needed to revolt and wipe out anybody who wasn't like them, anyone who was lesser than them. at best, what they want is to separate the races. that's kind of the marketing language they use. >> what do these actions do very visibly rating chicken plants and taking out brown people and all these visuals people are getting. what does that do to people when they're seeing that? >> from my vantage point, listening in the last couple segmen segments, i was getting angry. because i know we can do more. i know we can resolve this situation. i'm pretty sure when people are seeing this, they're saying, this is not the country we signed up for, this is not who we are. >> how do you get people out? >> it's frustrating. >> to get people out of this identity, how do you walk them back out if they're starting to walk into it? >> a lot of times when you're

involved with individuals that are involved with the naacp or what have you, you're dealing with a lot of frustrated folks. they're feeling like their looiflives aren't worth a damn. i will tell you that as they get older, as they start interacting with more and more of society, which we really should start -- how shall i say -- we should start making that happen more and more. you will start seeing them pull away from this and you will start seeing a lot of this garbage go down the rabbit hole and disappear. >> it would would it have helpe president was speaking in a way of, no, this is wrong? >> a person in his position has a lot of responsibility and it certainly would have helped. >> thank you both for being here. really great to meet you and see you in person. more after this with "am joy." e"

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2019 at approximately 6:30 a.m., inmate jeffrey epstein was found unresponsive in his cell in the special housing unit from an apparent suicide at the metropolitan correctional center in new york, new york. life-saving measures were initiated immediately by responding staff. staff requested emergency medical services and life-saving efforts continued. mr. epstein was transported by ems to a local hospital for treatment of life-threatening injuri injuries, and subsequently pronounced dead by hospital staff. the fbi is continuing to investigate. staff. the fbi is continuing to investigate. options based on their budget. flo has it, i want it, it's a whole thing, and she's right there. -yeah, she's my ride. this date's lame. he has pics of you on his phone. -they're very tasteful. he has pics of you on his phone.

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there has to be a bipartisan discussion here of what we can agree on. background checks and red flags would probably lead the discussion but other things would come up as well. what we can't do is fail to pass something by just locking up and failing to pass. that's unacceptable. >> senate majority leader mitch mcconnell, who has a long history of opposing gun legislation in the wake of tragedies, appeared to have made a 180-degree turn this week, as did another top republican who resisted gun reform legislation in the past. >> i spoke to mitch mcconnell yesterday. he's totally on board. he said, i've been waiting for your call. i think meaningful background

checks are a real positive. politically, i can't tell you. good, bad or indifferent. i don't care politically. i don't want to have crazy people having guns. >> okay. there is good reason to be skeptical, however, that there will be any meaningful change after the massacre in el paso and dayton, because trump will have to check in with the almighty nra who has already warned him tougher gun measures would be unpopular with his base. joining me now, jane, and shannon watts, mom activist for guns in america which is proposing gun safety today in iowa. you have the disadvantage of not being with us here at the table, so i'll go with you first. you have this that's happening today in iowa, do you have any confidence that the same person, mitch mcconnell, whose team tweeted out a picture of a lot of gravestones, making fun of his grim reaper nickname, his

moniker, with "rest in peace," naming amy mcgrath who is running against him for senate, allison grimes, the secretary of state who ran against him before, the green new deal. merrick garland's name is on it. someone who thought that was a good idea and also had members of his staff out having a good old time and choking a picture of congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez while wearing teammate t-shirts, is that someone who you count on to be serious about gun reform? >> you know, i count on the hundreds of thousands of gun violence prevention advocates and americans across the country who have made this their priority issue, to keep putting pressure on not just mitch mcconnell but all of the senators to come back from recess and to pass background checks and a red flag law. we are seeing hearts and minds

change, whether it's because they have had a change of heart or politically expedient reasons. it doesn't matter to me when hundreds of americans are shot and killed every day, we need our senators to act. i would convince everyone at home to text 6143 to bring change. >> jane, your team is not on this list who said they have done background checks. susan collins always got deep feelings about things -- >> senator sasse does the deep feeling thing too and doesn't do action. >> lots of feelings, alabama, tennessee. i don't mean to be cynical, but do you have faith that any of these senators will talk a good game? after they get the warning from the nra, they just tend to

dissolve. >> i find it very typical this will be the moment. we always hold out hope, but right now i have the decision to send my three girls with bulletproof backpacks or do i send politicians to washington, d.c. to actually pass gun reform. obviously i'm pushing to get better people in d.c. but as long as people like mitch mcconnell control the senate, we'll never get gun reform because he is beholdin' to then nra. i know plenty of hunters, including my husband who does not need a weapon of war to take down a deer. that would interfere with his manhood, so trust me, he doesn't need that. but none of that will happen unless we get a democrat in the white house and unless we control the senate. >> shannon, your group moms in action, is great out there

fighting the nra day after day after day. i can't understand. i grew up in colorado where everybody had rifles, everybody was hunting, black, white, everybody was hunters, and we never saw people's guns. no one would ever think about walking around the streets with a giant, enormous gun and go to the supermarket. it just is unheard of and i grew up in a gun state. can you wrap your mind around this idea that some states allow people to walk around, as long as they're not black because then they'll get killed, to walk around with giant war weapons on them openly? how can people live like that? >> well, i live in colorado and we see that a lot now because there are so many gun extremists that have been pulled to the right by the gun lobby in this country. but i want to get back to what your guest said, this idea that nothing has happened since sandy hook. nothing could be further from the truth. we are winning in state houses and boardrooms. i know we're waiting for a

cathartic moment in progress, but remember, we waited for them with a republican congress and a republican senate. we outmaneuvered them, we o outlawed guns in places across the country. >> you're obviously partisan, but is that the answer, that simply republicans cannot hold power if you want change on guns? >> no, there is just no question about it. that goes with other big issues, too, including climate change. the republicans are stuck in their ways. their stuck in 1980 and the early '90s and they're not going to move forward. the republicans, especially the americans out there, you have to cross the party line with the democrats. this is about coming together to

make sure our kids are safe. we have too many guns on the streets. and this is not only about the mass shootings which donald trump tries to equate to mental illness, this is about gun violence is happening every day. omaha has one of the highest rates of black murders in the nation because this is about too many guns are on the streets without the proper care. we need people to have licenses, we need to hold gun manufacturers accountable, we need to have insurance on gun owners. there are basic things that we can do as a country, and we all know them, but we have failed the political will to do it. >> and they shouldn't have the excuse from liability. it's the only industry that has complete excuse from liability of their products being used to murder or kill. >> if we can do it with tobacco, we can do it with guns. >> absolutely. thank you, shannon watts and jane kleeb. we're going to interview more

about gun reform. about gun reform in stores every. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

we're continuing with our breaking news. accused sex trafficker jeffrey epstein has died in his manhattan jail cell. the justice department just

released a statement confirming that epstein was found unresponsive in his manhattan cell at approximately 6:30 this morning. he was transported to a hospital for treatment of life-threatening injuries and subsequently pronounced dead by hospital officials. multiple people familiar with the investigation said that epstein was not currently on suicide watch at the time of his death, even though just last month the millionaire financier was found injured in his cell after what was called a possible suicide attempt. also new this hour, a cnn law enforcement official told nbc news that the fbi is investigating the incident as an abundance of caution. however, the official added that there is nothing at this point to suggest foul play. joining me now, msnbc contribute tore danny c eva llos and civil activist lisa bloom. when i read the statement that came out about how he was found, what's missing from that is how. they didn't say they found him hanging in his cell, they didn't

say he choked on something in his cell. there is a lot missing, or am i just a bit too suspicious because we know this a federal facility and this isn't perhaps the most trusted doj. >> the doj is going to be closed-fisted at least in the immediate term because they are investigating with their own ability in mind. down the road there may come a lawsuit alleging indifference to epstein's thoughts of suicide. there could be closed circuit tv, perhaps in the cell itself. and at mcc, i believe they conduct counts at 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m. if he was found at 6:30 a.m., that looefeaves about an hour a half, if the last case was at 5:00 a.m. >> this is a person who was informationally a threat to the

president of the united states. we know the crime directive of the attorney general, his job is to protect the president of the united states. donald trump is his client, not us. this is the doj facility. somebody in there has information. nobody knows what it is, there is no allegation that donald trump did anything with any of these girls. the one woman that came out said he did not, she said donald trump departmeid not do anythin her, but she was recruited at mar-a-lago. so nobody is watching him in a federal facility? there is too much that's too weird for us not to ask these questions. >> one of the litmus tests for your concerns will be when the test goes to the federal government for things like closed-circuit tv or any documents on epstein. it will be a real tell if the federal facility fights back on everything about foyo records.

those are about the federal open records law. there are many reasons to deny access, but if they tend to release information, that will show there is less of a cover-up here. >> lisa, you made a very good point earlier in the program that for the victims of this monster over the decades, at least he is no longer a threat to them. but as somebody who is representing some of these victims, would you want such a foyer request to find out how this person was allowed to die however he died and be silenced to be able to maybe provide information that could help more victims? >> absolutely. i can tell you on behalf of the jeffrey epstein victims who i want, they want full transparency, full information, everything about this man's life, everything about his death, everything about who helped him, who knew and allowed him to get away with his sick crimes where he would entrap and exploit and victimize young women, make them feel terrible

about themselves, make them feel like they were prostitutes when they thought they were just going over to give a man a massage, their lives ultimately shattered, their careers derailed, several of them who were models just gave up modelling entirely because they were so disgusted. that's why we've been cooperating with the criminal authorities first, because there's really nothing in it for them as victims, they just wanted to get justice against him, and now that he's deceased, we can go ahead and file the civil case against his case. in the civil case we get discovery. discovery is the first thing that happens in a case when you file it, which is you get to get information. i can find out documents, i can talk to witnesses, i can force people to come in and answer questions under oath. there is a lot more information to be made available and that is definitely what the victims want. >> that's a good question. let's say, danny, in the case of what lisa bloom just said, if discovery happens in civil cases against the jeffrey epstein

estate, could the product of that discovery then be discoverable to prosecutors? >> yes, but in many senses, the prosecutors already have this information. if they search eed epstein's ho, they have access to all kinds of documents. as long as that underlying warrant was supported by probable cause and there was no problem with it, there is no problem with prosecutors using that evidence to springlord into investigations of other issues, other things. they're not going to be able to suppress that information as long as the underlying warrant was valid. there are many ways to get at the information, and controlled by the epstein estate, you get a look at the government facility. lisa bloom and other attorneys representing victims will get discovery, they will get disclosure of documents, and, of course, you have whatever the federal government has already obtained in its criminal

investigation which, arguably, at least into epstein, is complete. >> and lisa, i know that sometimes the lawsuit issue is just on defamation. you've had that before. >> yes. >> one of the cases here is a defamation case brought by one of the vic dimz becautims becau co-conspirator of jeffrey epstein, this woman who helped traffic the girls, is denying it. so does the deposition of her help pull this off? >> yes, we just got a deposition of bill cosby in this case after he called a victim a liar. h her defamation case went forward and we got charges.

this is unearthing all kinds of documents and a treasure trove of information. there are a lot of epsteins out there pursuing justice in a lot of different ways. the civil cases, i want to emphasize, all still go forward. people may think mistakenly with his death they end. that is not true. the civil cases can still go forward with his estate so we can still get information and the victims can get the full compensation that they deserve. >> and do victims have a case against this jail and the department of justice on the theory they had a fiduciary responsibility for the victims of jeffrey epstein to keep him in good enough health to be prosecuted and held accountable for what they did to him? >> i like that, joy. i'm going to hire you because that's a very clever and creative idea and that's what we have to do on behalf of victims. i think it's a stretch legally, but you never know. >> you never know.

that is the bottom line, danny, because the federal government had a duty, even though what he did was disgusting, but he had information about who he was with and who he was selling these girls to. the public had a right to who those people are, they had a responsibility to keep him alive. >> the public doesn't have a general right to access doj files, fbi files when there is an ongoing investigation. in fact, the foila expressly contains a carveout for an ongoing investigation. you may remember the mueller report. that was the main reason for redaction, and the public policy fofr th for that is sound. to the extent victims may have a cause of action, they wouldn't have a cause of action against the facility because the duty was only owed to epstein to not be reckless and indifferent to

his life. the epstein estate becomes something, arguably, that lisa bloom and other attorneys may be able to get at. >> the law firm of bloom, c eva llos and reed will now take a break. thank you very much, lisa bloom, danny cevallos. more "am joy" after the break. . [ giggling ] let's play dress-up.

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that is our show today. "am joy" will be back tomorrow. francis has our latest. stlrp r. there is breaking news at this hour. accused sex trafficker jeffrey epstein has died by suicide. good day and welcome to "weekends with alex witt." alex has the weekend off. jeffrey epstein was discovered dead in a manhattan cell this morning. three months ago he was found almost dead after what was called an suicide attempt. the 66-year-old was being held on charges of sex trafficking girls as young as 14 to other rich and powerful men. first, nbc news contributing correspondent jonathan dietz, he joins us live on the phone with