i'm jo ling kent. it's 7:00 in the east and 4:00 out west. here's what's happening right now, more questions than answers remain in the death of jeffrey epstein. i.c.e. raid fallout, information about what might happen to the companies targeted by the immigration raids and whether separated families are back together. >> the battle for iowa continues. democrats descending on the hawkeye state and turning into a roller coaster ride for many of the candidates. we have the new ups and downs ahead. the battle over guns. we'll talk to a leading member

of congress whether there's any hope of new regulations that will stop the mass shootings. and we're beginning with the latest on the death of jeffrey epstein, the wealthy financier accused of sex trafficking and abuse of dozens of underage girls. there's questions about why he may have been taken off suicide watch in federal prison six days after a federal attempt. >> the fbi announced it will open an investigation into how he died and a number of politicians on both sides of the aisle today are calling for congressional and department of justice investigations. >> meanwhile, his accusers are disappointing and holding out hope for some justice. >> the estate is the money and assets and properties jeffrey epstein left behind. and i am calling today on behalf of his victims for the administrator of his estate to freeze all of his assets and not disburse them, not dissipate them and instead create a fund

for his victims who could then file civil cases. >> joining us now jonathan deetdeet dietz, msnbc correspondent following this story from the begin. thank you for being here. it was just 24 hours ago they got the call and found him in the cell and took him to the hospital, where he was pronounced dead. what information are we learning right? >> there are two key questions, one, how did he do it? the information is he used bed sheets perhaps tied to a bed post or tied to a window. and the other question is were the guards doing the rounds as scheduled? they're supposed to be going every 30 minutes or so to check on him. the question is was that often enough or were those rounds done to keep a close eye on a man as you were mentioning had apparently attempted to take his own life weeks ago. he didn't go through psychiatric evaluations a couple weeks ago.

after six days or so, they determined he was okay to return to a cell on his own in his special housing unit where he was housed, that is a cell with you a steel door and window and guards basically would come by and check on him every 30 minutes or so. if he was on suicide watch, woe have been basically on around-the-clock coverage and inmates standing outside and looking at the cell or video cameras or guards or combination of all thee. that was changed after they determined he was well enough, he was fine to return to that isolated cell. >> you have and incredible sources inside law enforcement. you have been breaking a lot of news on this story. i wonder is that evaluation you mentioned the reason why potentially epstein was taken off suicide watch? >> that is the determination. he goes through scriptic counseling. the question is how hard were defense lawyers and defense team

punching for him to get out of the suicide watch conditions? because those are not pleasant. you're in a cell that has no sheets. you're basically dressed in a smock the entire day and you're watched. we know epstein was quite unhappy about conditions generally in the mcc. they had been complaining about rodents and food and basically he was trying to spend as much time as he could in the legal room downstairs and his lawyers would be sitting with him for hours and hours every day because he did not want to be in his cell or any of the common areas in that special housing unit. so he was quite unhappy in the facility. the question is were there warning signs and what more could have and should have been done to keep this man alive? >> what do you make of all of the conspiracy theories so far? >> i take what law enforcement and officials are telling us, we have the agencies that suicide is what is believed to have

taken place here. we will wait for the investigations to come for the final conclusion. the new york city medical examiner is now doing their work and rewe expect results perhaps as early as today. but suicide appears to be a sensible explanation and there are a lot of conspiracy theories out there. some real wild ones out there on the web and we will leave that to others to decide and professionals to come to their conclusion once all of these investigations are complete. >> you're right, that unsubstantiated conspiracy theories. what do you expect to happen next, jonathan? what should we be watching for in the next chapter of this alarming story? >> i think we will await the medical examiner's results which could come as soon as today, perhaps tomorrow. that would be the first good, solid piece of information about whether he in fact hanged himself and that was the cause of his death. i think to look for the mcc, fbi or justice department today to provide some details to shoot down a lot of these conspiracy

theories about how he took his own life. the sheets tied to the bed or a prison garb they returned to him after he was taken off suicide watch, did he use that, providing some additional details or clarity to put to rest some of the rumors that are out there, including one retweeted by the president yesterday. >> which was very shocking the president was giving fuel to the fire with these conspiracy theories indeed. jonathan dienst, our thanks to you. >> thank you. nbc's mike macura is following the president. talk to us about the role the doj is playing in this case right now. what can they actually do? >> and you're absolutely right, jo. that mcc, the metropolitan correctional center in manhattan, is actually a federal facility and ultimately run by the department of justice. the attorney general, bill barr,

announced that he's appalled over the events in the last 24 and is calling for an investigation and in fact ordered one. he put out a statement yesterday in the hours and aftermath of the apparent suicide of jeffrey epstein that reads like this -- i was appalled to learn that jeffrey epstein was found dead early this morning from an apparent suicide while in federal custody. mr. epstein's death raises serious questions that must be answered. in addition to the fbi investigation, i have consulted to the inspector general, who's opening an investigation into the circumstances of mr. epstein's death. of course, the questions swirling about how this could have possibly happened. as jonathan reported, given the history of mr. epstein that lockup and his apparent attempt on his own life just a few weeks ago. less than two weeks ago. why wasn't he on suicide watch? why wasn't that suicide watch -- if he was, why wasn't it continued? how could this have possibly happened. of course, the department of

justice again is ultimately responsible. as for the president, you are right. he's nearby at his luxury golf course in bedminster for the next nine days. we did not see the president yesterday, but as you report, we heard from him. he's retweeting some of the more unsubstantiated clamsz on the fringes of the internet, including one that appears to want to implicate president clinton somehow in what has happened and transpired over the last 24 hours. obviously, there is no evidence of that president clinton as well as president trump and there's plenty of video evidence as many as two decades ago the president did at least know and have an acquaintance with jeffrey epstein. they both had their facilities, jeffrey epstein's mansion in palm beach and president's mar-a-lago, reportedly banned jeffrey epstein from mar-a-lago from more than a decade ago. a lot of speculation and a lot of crazy talk out here. one thing we do know is the

federal government department of justice has begun an investigation through the fbi and the department of justice inspector general. jo? >> mike viqueira, thank you so much. just a little bit, we will take a look at the legal fallout from jeffrey epstein's death. how his alleged accusers will still be able to seek justice. now a race to the white house. a big weekend. 2020 contenders are all in iowa for the most part and wisconsin. in a few hours these democratic hopefuls will be maeking their pitches all across the state. this comes as demands for gun control legislation grow on the heels of mass shootings a week ago. senator elizabeth warren is introducing a new plan to curb gun violence and that includes background checks, a ban on assault weapons and prohibiting anyone convicted of a hate crime from owning a gun. and gun control very much front and center overall as 16 candidates join a gun safety

forum in iowa. >> folks, don't apologize at all about the second amendment. the second amendment says that we can limit who can own a weapon. they can limit what kind of gun you can own. >> 40,000 americans died last year from gun violence. so here's my commitment as president, i will reduce that number by 80%. >> mcconnell wants to vote against gun safety legislation, let him vote against it. but reconvene the united states senate. let's have that discussion. let's have that vote. do what the american people want. >> if he said hey, mitch mcconnell, bring that house bill over here by getting it through the senate, it would happen. our young men and in particular our young black and brown men, should not be thought of as disposable. >> this is actually pretty big. while in iowa, the first caucus

state, of course, senator harris landed two key endorsement from an influential couple there who were early supporters of barack obama back in 2007 and hillary clinton in 2016. >> entrepreneur andrew yang got emotional listening to the story of a mother whose 4-year-old daughter was killed by a stray bullet and her son who witnessed it. >> i have a 6-year-old and 3-year-old boy, just imagining -- i was imagining it was one of them on the other side. i'm so sorry. look, the biggest downside running to president for me is i don't get to see my family very much. so we have pictures and facetime and i see pictures of my boys and what you described, i'm sorry, it's very, very affecting. >> joining us now, politics reporter from the daily beast.

>> good morning. >> how much do these like andrea yang had, these feelings, how much does it impact the crowded field? >> it impacts the policy debate in a huge way. this is the way the candidates can bring their own personal experiences and own personal touches if you will into the conversation. obviously gun control, gun violence is an issue that hits home for many americans and unfortunately a growing number of americans. i think you're going to see more of these personal stories as these candidates really get to know the electorate more as a whole. but i think the policy debate of this is very interesting and how the 2020 candidates are really approaching this. i was very surprised -- not surprised but interested to see elizabeth warren's plan on gun control. she's actually trying to get more movement to happen in the senate and trying to push for more democrats to be elected in

the senate in 2020. we know a lot of gun control groups and democratic groups plan on targeting various senate seats like cory gardner's seat, susan collins' seat that could potentially have a major role in the future of gun control legislation. it's interesting to see the candidates really try to make an impact on this, even off the campaign trail. >> hannah, i was curious in reading some of your writing there in the daily beast, you wrote even though the majority of democratic contenders have the projected unwavering confidence in their ability to win the democratic primary, some long-shot candidates are actually starting to publicly entertain the possibility of a plan b. who are these long-shot candidates? what does bill de blasio plan to do? >> bill de blasio luckily has a full-time job as mayor of new york city but other candidates in particular, former colorado

governor john hickenlooper is in a tricky position. it's been reported his senior aides called on him to drop out of the race. he's part of that unofficial unemployment caucus where he's not catching on but he's starting to entertain other options such as potentially running for a senate speet. the other person we spotlighted is massachusetts seth poelten who if he didn't catch on soon, would be stepping down. >> the gun votes that the house packed, background checks and the president is now saying he's actually go to support them. we know warren in the senate and the other 2020 candidates. what will happen next do you think? >> we're seeing mcconnell essentially saying he's talked with the president about at least having background checks and red flag bills in the

discussion once the senate reconvenes in the september. jo, it's really hard to look at this situation and see if it's going to be any different than what's happened during the previous mass shootings. would you think going back to 2012 that the shooting of a number of young kindergarten students at new town would have pushed lawmakers to make some sort of change on gun control, but they actually didn't. however, i think there is growing political pressure for the senate in particular to address this issue. and i think the national rifle association right now is in a very different position than they were during previous mass shootings. we are seeing that they're having leadership issues at the top. they're going through the financially difficult time. so that could potentially give republicans more leeway to make more -- to change their instances a bit. maybe on the issue of gun control. however, regional gun lobbies are going to be pressuring the

senators to not move on this issue and not necessarily focus on the issue of red flag bills or background checks, and instead revert to the normal republican cincinnati of blaming this on mental health or congressman -- leader kevin mccarthy's blame on video games. i'm looking forward to see how this really plays out. the political climate in terms of the nra has certainly visited. >> yes, in the meantime as we noted more than 20 of the democratic presidential candidates are hitting the hawkeye state today. and for the iowa state fair this weekend. of course we know, been saying this for a while, it's a springboard for candidates from what you have seen so far, hanna. anyone making an impression that would leave a lasting impression? >> i think elizabeth warren undoubted inially has one of the strongest ground game operations there.

she started setting her sights on iowa in the midterms when she was sort of turning down the idea, not mentioning directly she was exploring a run for the presidency. but we saw early indications she was setting her sights on iowa and we are seeing the fruits of that labor now. she has hundreds of volunteers on the grounds and interns and fellows working on her behalf. we are seeing some of that work pay off. she's climbing up in the polls and it's a critical state for politics as new hampshire. the first two states really benefit a politician who can sake a selfie with the crowd or have one of the regional favorite foods at the state fair. so i think she's doing quite well there. and kamala harris is climbing up in the polls there as well. she's spent time and money and invested in a strong infrastructure there in terms of her staff. >> yep, and she got those really key endorsements over the weekend and is on that five-day bus tour of the state.

starting to net that joe biden and bernie sanders. julia and hanna, thank you. >> thank you. why a woman who was very close to jeffrey epstein may now become of greater importance in the sex trafficking investigation. we will talk about what her role was. we will talk about what her role was. is that net carbs or total?... eh, not enough fiber... chocolate would be good... snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. glucerna. everyday progress but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you.

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i was just a little kid, you know, it just seemed okay, i don't know. >> and he suggested he might help you with his promise hanging over all much that? >> yeah, yeah so i just said this could only be beneficial. this is a good thing. just stick it through, you know. >> that was jeffrey epstein's accuser, jennifer rose, with nbc's savannah guthrie last month on the "today" show. yesterday she said, i am angry jeffrey epstein won't have to face survivors of his abuse in court. >> let's go to our legal experts, attorney and msnbc contributor. katie, is there anything investigators can now do given the circumstances to ensure some level of justice or a chance for the alleged victims to be heard in court? >> there's never really any guarantees in the criminal justice system so in terms of the continuing investigation by

the southern district of new york into any potential co-conspirators of jeffrey epstein, we know that office is committed to moving forward, because they released a statement emphasized in the conspiracy account jeffrey epstein was originally charged with. right now the focus is going to shift that might have facilitated and assisted jeffrey epstein in the trafficking of these young girls. but in terms of guaranteed justice, no, you know, if you think about it, there should have been justice 12 years ago. these victims never had a chance to go to court and look him face to face in the eye to basically accuse him and point to him and say you did this to me and now unfortunately they will never be able to do so. >> so is the criminal investigation now dead? >> no, it's only gone against epstein. there are co-conspirators left. unfortunately we won't have epstein's testimony against him. that's what everybody was anticipating, getting more information from him as

co-conspirators. but i think the adam who arranged all of these girls and transactions, she is definitely looking at criminal liability. i also think there could be a civil case against epstein's estate. we is already heard lisa bloom, one of the victim's attorneys, asked to have all of the assets frozen. so i think we will see something in the civil realm for civil justice. >> are you referring to the alleged madam ghislaine maxwell here? what is the possible role of epstein's former assistant? >> definitely. her and anybody else who actually helped coordinate this, not ones who necessarily knew about it but coordinated getting these girls there, help hide it, can be brought into the conspiracy. the federal government can cast a very broad net on this conspiracy charge. there are a lot of people looking at facing some criminal liability. i think you will see the justice department continue to try to bring other people to justice in this case. >> katie, can you just imagine

what those alleged victims and previous victims are going through having not received justice so many years ago and now this happening now. >> so in the sexual abuse cases that i prosecuted, you know, the victimization that happens over and over again. these victims back in 2007, 2008 were not even made aware of the sweetheart deal jeffrey epstein was a beneficiary of and then fast forward to the fact that just this past year a few months ago a federal judge found the u.s. attorney's office, southern district of florida, violated the victim crimes rights act when they entered into that sweetheart deal with jeffrey epstein. the idea there was the opportunity to be able to face and confront jeffrey epstein has now completely been eradicated for these victims. there is as ashley said, the potential for civil exposure for the state of jeffrey epstein. but i'm concerned knowing the type of person, how secretive jeffrey epstein was, he did a very good job of asset protecting. meaning he put his assets in

places where it might be difficult to fine, let alone get to. perhaps offshore accounts or llcs, perhaps some type of trust. so i don't think it will be that easy for the victims to get the money from the estate of jeffrey epstein. >> ashley, investigative reporter jonathan dienst is reporting there was an evaluation to allow epstein to go off suicide watch. how is a decision like that made in such a high-profile case? >> that's really interesting how this happened. we have suicides in jail every day. so what they have is a psychiatrist who would actually go and do the evaluation of mr. epstein. that person would make the recommendation he's no longer a risk to himself or others so he would be able to go off suicide watch. i can't help but think that decision was made a little lightly and he should not have been off suicide watch at this point but jails don't like to keep people on suicide watch because it's very expensive. they don't like to have people with a 24-hour surveillance on them. they don't want to keep that

level of watch because it's expensive to do that. so they're very quick to take them off suicide watch. i can't help but say a lot of jails turn a blind eye to suicide because they know they will not be liable if and inmates kills themselves. they is will not be sued or liable or get in trouble for letting an inmate take their own life. these things happen all the time, folks who should not be off suicide watch are quickly taken off. >> we will leave it there, katie phang, thank you both. the ongoing threat of white nationalism. what can will you makers do to fight it? an will you makers do o fight it liberty mutual customizes your car insurance,

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there is reward. ♪ ♪ beyond work and life... who else could he be? there is the moment. beyond technology... there is human ingenuity. ♪ ♪ every day, comcast business is helping businesses go beyond the expected, to do the extraordinary. take your business beyond. in your morning headlines in orlando, florida, a man is under arrest after he allegedly posted a threat on social media. the suspect said on facebook he would get off probation in three days and get his ar-15 back. then he warned, quote, don't go to walmart next week. investigators say the 26-year-old appears to follow white supremacist ideology. to tennessee now and police intensifying their search for an escaped inmate who allegedly killed a prison employee four days ago. thorpts believe the escapee is still in that area and they

increased the award money for his capture. . >> massachusetts a 13-year-old boy is recovering after a wind-driven beach umbrella was driven right into his shoulder. he was rushed to the hospital. >> there was a really large gash in the shoulder and by the time i got over there, there was three, four people there. >> various videos from past incidents show how dangerous flying beach umbrellas could be. the consumer product safety commission sked some 200 people were injured by umbrellas in 2017 and 2018. and members on both sides of the aisle could be getting closer to revisiting gun legislation. >> the idea even getting the support of president trump following last weekend's deadly mass shootings in texas and ohio. >> i think we can do meaningful, very meaningful background checks. i want to see it happen. so i've got a lot of support and i also have the support of other people on the ear side. and i think the democrats and

republicans have a chance to really come together. >> let's talk about that right now. joining us is michigan representative debbie dengle. thank you so much for being here congresswoman so early on this sunday. you're one of the more 200 democrats who sent this letter this week actually to leader mitch mcconnell saying the senate must vote to pass gun safety legislation that the house passed back in february, two of them actually. do you get a sense after hearing from the president right there and throughout the week that some movement will happen, that those bills on the house side might move in the senate? >> you know, i am a seasoned individual and i won't believe something's really going to happen until mitch mcconnell makes a commitment to bring those bills to the floor. united states senate. and i'm going to keep pushing forward. i think it is disappointing will

he not call the senate back. i think you're going to see activity at a very grassroots level akrocross the country as parents and other concerned citizens say to people we've got to do something. maybe that will be powerful enough. i have to say to you, we keep thinking we see those moments in time and we saw babies shot in schools, parkland. i don't know what it's going to take to lead us to do it but i'm not going to stop working my tail off to try to get us there. >> you mentioned sandy hook and that is the shooting happened back in 2012 and you wrote an op-ed in "the washington post" describing your perspective having lived with guns most of your life. you wrote demonizing nra or gun owners in general gets us nowhere. a fresh round of proposals for gun-control of laws won't work and will be renewed by the different fractions going back to their corner to fight and

still seeking real solutions. do you think that's true still considering how many mass shootings happened since 2012? >> you know, it was good to hear the president once again say we need to look at expanding background checks, red flag laws. he said that earlier. i want him to do it. i want to work with him. i want to work with everybody and anybody so we do something to keep the guns out of the hands of those that shouldn't have them. from that op-ed, i talked about it. i lived with a man who shouldn't have had guns and i lived with my husband, an nra board member for a time. we've got to do something. the increase in hate crimes in this country is terrifying. for african-americans 14%, hispanic and latinos 24% since 2014. my community, i leave in dearborn, michigan that has a significant muslim population, it's increased 600%.

these kids last sunday, i was at something where kids, young kids, 6, 7, 8-year-olds, third generation, fourth generation, saying why do people hate us, and am i safe? what do you tell the 6-year-olds who ask you that question? >> that's the question that ought to be put to lawmakers here. you are talking to your colleagues all of the time, i presume. >> i am. >> what will it take do you think to actually move this forward to prevent another flip-flopping by the president and actually get legislation to move? >> i know that there are activities planned across the country. the weekend of the 17th and 18th will be wakd of action sponsored by a member of the gun groups you saw responsponsor the forum iowa over the weekend. next week there will be something in every state of the country. i think the voices of children, i think the voices of families need to be the voices that are

out there. we need to not have this be the traditional -- >> what about the voices of the parkland kids? >> they have got to keep going. when you meet with those parkland kids, when you see the kids like the ones i saw last sunday which unfortunately i hear from way too often, we just have to keep trying. you can't give up. you just have to keep trying. that's why i'm committed. i tell my gun story and my mother is still alive but i tell it. we have to get through somehow, some way these policymakers's heart and souls to understand what's happening in our country. >> what is holding back the folks on the other side of the aisle on gun legislation? for years we've heard it's because of the nra being a powerful lobby. nra is practically broke. they're not going to be putting that much money in many campaigns next year. so what is it? >> you know, i'll tell you

because i really have seen this from all sides, this is a moment most people don't even remember or recognize, but my husband in 1994 was the key vote, was the person -- what way he i went determined what happened on that crime bill in 1994 where assault weapons were banned, magazine sizes changed. he had such serious death threats that he had to have police cheprotection for severa months. most of the time i talk about guns, the speeches i give are from my heart and pretty spontaneous. you can't believe the hate mail, death threats every time i do something strongly. i think there are people out there that are like very afraid of losing their guns. they believe in the second amendment, and i think they threaten people and i think those threats leave some people uncomfortable. but sometimes you got to just -- up got to have a moral conscious and stand up for what's right. and right before john died, when

i was only -- it was about three weeks before we were talking about guns again because something happened, john said to me, debra, times change and i'm proud of you. keep fighting. >> congresswoman, is there one piece of legislation, one narrow piece of legislation that actually will move us forward on this and prevent people from dyeing? >> well, you know, background checks bill is the first -- there are two bills pending in the senate that passed the house, which is something that would attempt to keep guns out of the hands of the folks that shouldn't have them. my experience quickly reminding people of having a father that shouldn't have had a gun, breaking up a fight, almost dyeing, living with there fear of guns. i think red flag laws are very important. we know the mother in san diego -- not san diego, el paso had called the police and said, i don't think my son should have this gun. we have to do something.

family members and friends are frequently the first person to know when someone should not have a gun. we should not take away somebody's due process but the police need to have the tools to take something away, to keep people safe in a short-term period while it's evaluated. >> congresswoman debbie dingell, thank you very much for joining us. we're just getting started but there's a lot more ahead on msnbc. at the top of the hour we have "up with david gura." good morning, david. >> good morning. there are a few conversations i want to highlight. joyce vance used to be a u.s. attorney in alabama and she's written an amazing piece about how a few years ago she had to decide whether or not to authorize a raid like the ones we saw last week in mississippi. she's going to join us to explain why she did not give that raid the go ahead. and now that jeffrey epstein is dead, the big question is what happens next to the victims, accusers and associates

as well? min a man who pored over jeffrey's little black book. and lastly, the red flag law legislations that would allow you to step in if you think someone shouldn't have access to guns to keep them away temporarily, the governor of wisconsin wants a law like that on his state. he will join us in a few minutes. >> david, was the tie of the day? >> sloths. >> sloths. how about that? zoom in? >> keen eye. well done. thank you. >> thank you, david. the focus of the mississippi raids now shifting to the owners of the plants. how investigators found out they were hiring illegal immigrants in serious federal charges some of them are now facing. them arg

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so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. he borrowed billionss to homes donald trump failed as a businessman. and left a trail of bankruptcy and broken promises. he hasn't changed. i started a tiny investment business, and over 27 years, grew it successfully to 36 billion dollars. i'm tom steyer and i approve this message. i'm running for president because unlike other candidates, i can go head to head with donald trump on the economy, and expose him fo what he is: a fraud and a failure. i hope that members of congress, particularly the leadership in congress,

recognizes open hearings, open hearings before the cameras are really, really important for the country in terms of dealing with even most controversial issues, in terms of airing out complex stuff and things we're fighting about, air rg it out and having the same information, enables us to all be better citizens. we're back with new headlines on those undocumented workers detained in last week's raids in mississippi. they are slowly being reunited with their families. >> all throw 377 of the 680 employees remain in federal detention, meanwhile nbc's kerry sanders has new information this morning that indicates the employers could now be in trouble. >> reporter: the owners and managers at the seven chicken processing plants that were rated may also face federal charges. according to a newly unsealed government affidavit, at least two of the companies were willfully and unlawfully

employing illegal aliens in violation of federal law. court documents reveal that immigration investigators worked with informants inside the plants, helping expose our managers allegedly knew they were breaking the law when they hired. in a statement cook foods, among those raided, says in part an employer can also find itself in jeopardy of committing unlawful discrimination if it acts too aggressively in the effort to comply with immigration laws. since she walked from the united states to guatemala 16 years ago, lopez has worked for one of the plants. now she's fitted with a geo tracking ankle monitor to make sure she doesn't go back to work. she openly admits she got her job with a fake social security number? >> just false. >> just false. to confirm somebody applying for a job could legally work in the u.s., employers use what's

called e-verify, a system that matches a state-issued i.d. like a driver's license and social security number. both provided by perspective employees. but there are loopholes. >> all that is to verify system is fake picture i.d., fake social security card but that have the real name and real sarah sanders of an actual human being. >> that's nbc's kerry sanders reporting for us. >> incidentally the penalty for employers hiring undocumented workers is six months in jail and/or $3,000 fine for each undocumented worker. and the growing worry among democrats about the leader of the 2020 pack, that's joe biden. we will talk about that next. hat

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alternative. >> let's bring in brian darling, founder and president of liberty government affairs. good morning, guys. >> good morning. >> bishop, this is coming on the heels of another biden slip-up. >> i watched when the kids came up from parkland to see me as vice president. and some of you covered it. you watched what happened when they went in the halls of congress. congressmen were cowering. >> parkland took place in 2018 after biden left. and he was thinking about the shooting at sandy hook when he said parkland. what are your concerns about joe biden here? anything warranted? i don't think so. this will be a long, long and arduous campaign.

you will have candidates making b gaffes like this throughout the extent of this campaign cycle. joe biden has shown us the type of heart he has, the type of man he is, and the leader he has been and can ultimately be. these are little blips that people are trying to make more out of than they are. >> you see the polls and has biden ahead of his opponents. elizabeth warren in second place, with 19%. kamla harris is up four points with 11%. you see the polls there and david axelrod, who worked with president obama years ago. he mentioned biden's poll numbers. he has been durable. but noting that all of the gaffes that biden has had, the

question is whether it's because we aren't geared into the race or there's inherent strengths there. what do you think it is, brian? >> people had good feelings when he worked as the vice president to barack obama. one of the problems democrats have him is they don't know how to attack him. many democrats have attacked obamacare and his immigration record. >> is it because people are not listening to the gaffes that he's leading in the polls right now? >> people look at the former vice president and he's still a strong candidate. he makes gaffes. so does president trump. they're looking at him as a strong candidate, somebody who served as vice president in a popular administration.

it's ironic that i'm saying these things, the republican. >> you love joe biden. admit it. >> let's talk about the alternatives. the endorsement for kamla harris. they helped endorse president obama early on. how significant is that? >> i think it's fantastic. on the democratic side, you have an incredible group of candidates. any one of them can be a tremendous leader. kamla harris has a proven track record of leadership and understanding of policy. julian castro is trying to be thoughtful and innovative with

his policy recommendations. i'm not surprised with what we're seeing. i think it's healthy for our democracy overall to have these strong candidates, really having a debate on a variety of the issues. >> all right. >> let's leave it there with these guys. bishop garrison and brian darling. thank you, guys. the trump administration is reportedly pushing for more immigration raids like the ones you saw last week. that's ahead on "up" with david gura. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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all right. that will do it for us this hour of "msnbc live." i have my "up with david gura" doughnut. i'm ready to go. >> i'm kendis gibson and i'll be with you again at 2:00 p.m. eastern because it's sunday. now, it's "up with david gura." can i get a doughnut, anybody? >> this is "up," i'm david gura. and this morning, the internet is awash with conspiracy theories on jeffrey epstein's death. >> he had information on the clintons and the man ended up dead. >> on the campaign trail, the candidates for the democrat iic nomination continue to criticize trump on gun