department of justice. the big question, how is it that someone who they suspected tried to take his own life just a matter of weeks ago was actually able to take his own life, and on top of it it's a facility that's been relied onto hold some very high profile visitors. paul manafort was held there for a time. it is consider today be a very secure place. >> good morning, and welcome to "am joy." my colleague stephanie gosk explained why the death of jeffrey epstein was so shocking. officials say he apparently died by suicide saturday after being found unresponsive in his cell. the fbi is investigating and the country and more importantly epstein's victims are left with a lot of questions. how does an inmate who's that high profile die while in the custody of in the federal

government? if this jail was secure enough to hold elchalpo how was epstein able to follow through with an alleged suicide? how exactly is the justice department going to explain why epstein was taken off suicide watch after an alleged suicide attempt just a couple of weeks ago? does that make any sense? these are all real questions that donald trump's justice department has to answer. but it was the answer that donald trump cooked up on saturday that by a twitter retweet that represents a new low for an administration that has already descended to child taking, caging, shrieking rallies and rhetoric from the president that inspires white nationalist domestic terrorists. donald trump retweeted an account that blamed the former president of the united states or the former first lady and

secretary of state bill and hillary clinton of a conspiracy to kill jeffrey epstein. just think about that for a minute. the sitting president of the united states accused a previous president of orchestrating the killing of a man, the current president once called his friend and a terrific guy. a man accused of hideous crimes who was being incarcerated by the current president's department of justice. as david frum writes in the atlantic imagine if president richard nixon had accused his predecessor lyndon johnson of complicity in the assassination of president kennedy. of course that never happened. obviously. how could it? how dare it. but had it happened, such an accusation by a president against a former president would have convulsed the united states and the world. but it has now happened, and now we wait to see if the vulgarity

that this administration will -- of this administration will proceed as usual and whether donald trump's minions in his administration and in the republican party will go on television and repeat that smear against the former president of the united states. oh, okay. it turns out we got the answer to that question just a moment ago. >> why did the president then retweet that clinton suggestion? >> i think the president just wants everything to be investigated as your reporter just revealed just the day before. there were some unsealed information implicating some people very high up, and i'm not going to repeat their names. >> it's clear what he's trying to say, wasn't it? >> i think the president just wants everything to be investigated and, you know, trying to connect the president to this monster from years ago where they're seen dancing in a video versus other people who were actively i suppose flying

around with this monster on his island which was known as pedophilia island perhaps there's a public interest in knowing more about that. >> okay, take that in for a moment. that's a member of the federal government, a member of the presidential administration who just did that, who just advanced an insane conspiracy theory against the former president, okay. so meanwhile the investigation of epstein's death now falls into the hands of william barr. donald trump's consigliere, an attorney general who refused to recuse himself on the epstein case despite his association with a law firm once involved with epstein, whose father once hired jeffrey epstein as a teacher with neither experience nor degree and whose prime directive is to protect donald trump no matter what. in other words, we may never get the answer to how jeffrey epstein was allowed to die and deprive all those victims of their opportunity for justice.

joining me now is carol lenning, investigative reporter for "the washington post." good morning, carol. thank you for being here. and i want to refer you to your own tweet from yesterday, and you tweeted this. you tweeted people close to epstein fear he was murdered. as epstein told authorities someone tried to kill him in a previous incident weeks earlier. he was described as being in good spirits in recent days. so two questions for you. question number one, i want you to detail a little bit more about this allegation because what you're referring to here are people close to epstein with a previous incident which was an alleged attempt on his life, that's number one, and number two this is ridiculous question. i'm so sorry to have to ask you this but do the people close to epstein who fear he was murdered think the clintons somehow pulled off a hit against jeffrey epstein? >> well, let's take those questions one by one, joy. thank you for all your preface.

first off the incident july 23rd in the prison in new york amcc which many people now compare to a grave because it's so stressful and disorganized and chaotic, it's not exactly a great place to be. people who have been guantanamo say they prefer guantanamo over the amcc. that incident in which jeffrey epstein was found on the floor semiconscious and he cliaimed he'd been assaulted, there were neck marks. his roommate at the time said i found him like this and epstein insisted he did not try to kill himself. we don't know the answer to what happened because they have haven't answered the question, what did your probe back then zurn, what did you find actually happened? all we do know he was put on

suicide watch for a while, and as my great colleagues of "the washington post" have reported he was taken off suicide watch a few days before he was found dead, and their second piece of their question, forgive me, i'm going to it quickly, the people close to epstein don't have any theories about what happened. they have the fear that all smart people who watch prison deaths unfold have, which is this guy had a lot of secrets. did anybody want him dead? this guy is accused of being a rampant serial pedophile. those people also end up dead in prisons often. was he attacked? he claimed that he was attacked july 23rd. we don't know the answers to those questions, but the justice department says they're going to find out. >> let me ask you another question about this facility. who was in charge of it? could anyone -- for instance, if it was the justice department

directly supervisory of mcc, who supervises it? >> the justice department is ultimately the owner of this property. it's a federal facility and, you know, the attorney general who spoke on saturday several times ability his concern about this is ultimately the supervisor of this facility. he may be removed but it's his responsibility. >> talk about this facility itself. you just described it it as people who have been in there say it's quite frightening. here's what a former inmate had to say in new york post. in this person's view it would have been impossible to hang ones self in one of these jails. there's no way for you to connect to anything. you have sheets but they're paper level, not strong enough. he was 200 pounds. it would never happen. could he have done it from the bed? no, sir, there's a steel frame but you can't move it. there's no light fixture, there's no bars and there's a

cop at the door about every 9 minutes whether you're on suicide watch or not. do you know the inside of this facility well enough to know if it would be physically possible for somebody to hang themselves inside one of these cells? >> absolutely not. i'm not an expert on this facility. i believe there are a lot of protections to prevent this kind of thing from happening, but here it has happened. we just don't know enough yet to say how it happened. just as we still don't know two weeks later what happened on july 23rd, i think that, you know, it's scary and worrisome for conspiracy theorists to spread rumors about what could or should have maybe did happen, but it is reasonable to ask the question what do we know, what do the tapes show, when was the last time somebody saw him alive? and ultimately what happened july 23rd. if he tried to kill himself on july 23rd, then his apparent

suicide makes a lot more sense to me. >> and here's the question about that because i want to zero in on the july 23rd incident as well. if someone as high profile, i know someone who's a former cop and i have one relative that used to work on rikers island. my understanding is if someone exhibits suicidal ideation and they attempt to actually hurt themselves, they would then be on suicide watch, and it wouldn't be brief. they would be on an extended suicide watch. there'd be a constant monitoring of that person. does it read as lodgical to you someone this famous being accused of peridation on children which normally can lead to violence against you in prison, these are people targeted, people who allegedly molest kids, would it make sense to you to take someone like that who's that high profile off suicide watch? >> no.

i mean, everything about this, joy, is so odd. the july 23rd incident is a red flag. the fact he was in a cell with a roommate who is about four times his size and is accused -- a former police officer who's accused of killing four people, the fact that's his roommate is also odd. again, that's back to july 23rd. i don't know understand how they run the prison. i just know these things sort of stand out as bizarre, and now he's dead. and honestly for his victims, you know, what in the world should they feel at this moment? they've been waiting for the day when they could face him in court and say this is what you did to me, this is what you did to my friends, and now we're going to see you pay for that if indeed you are convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. and that's gone for them now.

as well, what about all the things he knew based on the unsealed records on friday. what about all the things he knew about his coconspirators? important or not important people? that information is gone. >> right. and the challenge i think that i'm having, and i'm just going to go ahead and, you know, cop to my skepticism on this is that now the one person we in theory must wait for answers from is william barr. and william barr's record just to be candid, doesn't seem to denote somebody who's willing to tell truth about donald trump or make donald trump uncomfortable or unhappy. jeffrey epstein, like it or not, sorry trump fans, he was a threat to donald trump even just because it was embarrassing he had these connections to him. mr. barr had his own ties to jeffrey epstein. his father hired jeffrey epstein be to be a teacher who was not qualified to be a teacher in the

dalton high school here in new york. he worked at the law school before becoming attorney general but refused to recuse himself. he recused himself from the florida portion that had to do with the swaet heart deal jeffrey epstein got from mr. acosta, but he didn't recuse from this part. frank figliuzzi tweeted yesterday, yes ag barr overseas the u.s. attorney's office in new york and many years ago barr's father hired to teach at the dalton school with no private degrees so there's that. is there a reason for the public to be skeptical about mr. barr and he will be candid in whatever the fbi finds out about this ca? >> honestly, joy, i would give the attorney general the benefit of the doubt about this one because he's said in multiple ways this is appalling to him this happened.

he's not monitoring the bureau of prisons on a daily basis and certainly not the mcc. i don't know enough about the conflicts you and frank have raised to say they are real conflicts that make a difference in whether or not he could oversee the epstein case. i will say one thing that is unrelate today the investigation of this man's death, and that is you have to wonder let's just put aside acosta's incredible sweetheart deal from mr. epstein. you have to wonder how the southern district of new york brought a fresh new case apparently relying on a lot of the original victims and witnesses after epstein had been promised in writing a global agreement. and i am curious about what the department of justice and the southern district communications with florida were like. what exactly did they discuss and conifer about before these new charges were brought and was that appropriate?

i know everybody is sort of banging a gavel on the table, you know, justice for the victims of epstein and that makes sense but under this global agreement which may have been really inappropriate and sure looks like it how do you bring a new fresh case? i'd be interested in hearing about that behind the covers. >> and also whether or not any prosecutions of any alleged coconspirators and my last question to you, carol, having talked to people close to jeffrey epstein and given their fears of what they think happened to him, do you expect there to be an autopsy that the family might at some point share with the media or make public? >> stay tuned. i don't know the answer to that question this moment, but i think it's a good question, joy. >> all right, we will definitely stay tuned. thank you so much for your time this morning. all right, coming up beto

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i don't want to be sending parents away from children. i don't want to see the deportation force that donald has talked about in action in our country. he said as recently as a few weeks ago in phoenix that every undocumented person would be subject to deportation. now here's what that means. it means you would have to have

a massive law enforcement presence, where law enforcement officers would be going school to school, home to home, business to business rounding up people who are undocumented. i think it's an idea that would rip our country apart. >> she warned more than two years ago while running against donald trump in 2016 hillary clinton warned us almost to a tee what a trump presidency would look like for undocumented immigrants in america. he was eerily accurate, down to the separation of immigrant parents from their children to the massive raids that took part across mississippi this week. our next guest is running to take on donald trump in 2020 and has been an outspoken apopant of president trump's immigration policies. he was also one of the first to label president trump a white nationalist in the wake of a deadly mass shooting in el paso, texas, and joining me now is former congressman and 2020 presidential candidate beto o'rourke. and congressman, thank you so

much for your time this morning. and i want to go right to your making of a distinction that i've made as well which is that there's racism and there's white nationalism and white nationalism in this instance is much more dangerous to human beings. what is in your mind the distinction between someone who's a racist and a white nationalist? >> well, in the president's case because i think it's the most important example of this, you have someone who's talking about mexican immigrants as rapists and criminals who uses the words predator, animal, infestation to describe other human beings in an effort to dehumanize them and to allow people to treat them as less than human, which is exactly what you've seen happen along the u.s.-mexico border. as you've said children separated from their parents, children put in cages like you would put an animal in a cage. and the fact we've lost the lives of 7 children at least, that's what we know of, in our

custody during this administration just over the last year, when you add to that annalivation of white nationalists and klansman and neo-nazis and calling them very fine people and asking them or encouraging the crowd to chant send her back, and they're just repeating the words the president used, to talk about people who do not look like or pray like the majority of this country, it is very clear this president is a white supremacist. when he says he wants immigrants from nordic countries but doesn't want them from haiti because as donald trump says they have aides which is not true or he doesn't want those from central america or calls african countries and someone driving 600 miles and what he

called a quote-unquote hispanic invasion not only is this dangerous and offend our sensibilities, it is killing people in this country right now. >> including in your community. you're in a unique position because you are a native of el paso. this is your community where this is happening. and as someone in the super minority essentially as a white person in that community, you've lived the -- you know, the fear that a lot of white americans francly have of this no longer being a majority white nation. what do you say back to people who in their own minds might be ascribing to what you'd describe as white nationalism, saying this should be a white country which is what white nationalism is they're afraid it won't be. is there anything the president could say back to them that would somehow shake them loose from that sense of white nationalism? >> where i stand right now in el paso, texas, may hold the key to the answer. we're the largest financial

community in this hemisphere. 3 million speak in two languages from two cultures, two nations joined as one people. and on this side of the border el paso, texas, is one of if not the safest cities in the united states of america. i tell my fellow americans that's not despite the fact we're a city of immigrants, 85% mexican-american and the very presence of those immigrants makes us stronger and safer and yes more secure than we would otherwise be. so nothing to fear, nothing to be defensive about, nothing to wall up or put inside of a cage, everything to celebrate the best example of the united states of america. and if we do not tell our story here from el paso, texas, then others like donald trump will try to tell that story for us. and in fact donald trump has told the country we're one of the most dangerous cities in the country. in fact, the facts show we're the complete opposite, so that's

a technique of propaganda, of fear, something fascists use, something we must rise up against, and i think the story of el paso and juarez is the perfect counter example. >> you just used the term fascism. do you worry that is what the trump administration is leaning the united states toward? >> absolutely. he's undermining every single institution that made this country great in the first place. our genius in defining ourselves at the point of origin as a country of immigrants saying that all of us are created equal, though we have never lived up to that, we are well aware of that in 2019 we've always at least attempted to make this a more perfect union, and the leader of that effort has always been the president of the united states with some exceptions, but never still exceptional as this president who not only tries to define us as a white nation but undermines

the judiciary, the sanctity of the ballot box inviting a foreign power to involve themselves in our last elections and in our future elections as he just did a couple of months ago perfecting the pursuit of justice and every single norm that we hold dear to allow us to come together to come together as a people of the planet who found a home in this country and being destroyed right now. political violence used against those who do not look like a majority or threatened against his political opponents, yes, donald trump is destroying this country and it's incumbent upon all of us, democrats, republicans independents alike no matter where you live in the united states not only to stand up against him but to stand up for a country that serves every single one of us regardless of the differences. >> when donald trump came to your community, i don't know if you see this picture which a lot of people have been circulating in horror of himself and melania trump holding this baby who was orphaned in the massacre by that

domestic terrorists who came to your community and killed so many people. and people have sort of described it as almost sort of a trophy, the way they were holding, they were posing with the thumbs up, et cetera. why do you think he came to the community? what do you think the purpose of that was? >> i'll just tell you from our perspective here in el paso, this community knows it's been his rhetoric, his actions, his invitation to hate and also to perpetiate violence that helped to produce the massacre, the act of terror we saw last saturday, so this community did not want him to come. and nothing is more telling at this point the fact all of the patients, the survivors of this attack at universe medical center and del sol did not want to see the president. people who have discharged, people in other parts of the community had to be back in to

the afterwards were not about the community, not about healing, bringing us together, not about standing up to racism and white supremacy and white terrorism, it was about himself and how much he thought people loved him. how much he wants us to think that people love him. not only showing his insecurity but really a sickness in being unable to be empathetic and to be with people at their moment of greatest pain and grieving and suffering. it's not what a president of the united states should be doing. >> you know, we said in the intro you're one of people who have been the most blunt about donald trump and white nationalism and racism and the things he says and does. the push back against that, and i don't want to do the typical media thing where it's answer this push back and dignify it. what but what a lot of democrats are afraid of, if they go there and say donald trump is a white nationalist and a racist, they're worried it's just like

another deplorable thing, that it'll just scare middle of the road white voters away and make the democrats lose in 2020. what do you make of that criticism? >> i think it's really important that we not write anybody off, count anybody out, include everybody in the solutions in this country that include standing up to this kind of racism and white supremacy. standing up for sensible gun policy, universal background checks or ending the sales of the weapons of war like the ones used in el paso, no longer allow them to be sold in our communities. let me say this, joy, if you were one of those who when president trump was at a rally in florida and said how are we going to stop these immigrants from invading our country and someone yells shoot them or you laughed or you roared your approval or you sat in silence as the president smiled and he himself laughed in approval, you're part of the problem. if you're one of those in greenville, in north carolina

who's chantsing send her back, you are part of the problem. and you have to take a long hard look at yourself and your culpability and your responsibility for what is happening here in this country. so i'm going to focus on the future and all of us coming together and ensuring we stand up against this and stand for a much stronger better america, one that includes every single one of us regardless of our differences. and i invite everyone to be a part of that, but yes you're right, there are people in this country who are contributing to the intolerance it produces. there needs to be accountability for that. >> i've been in this sort of deep dive on the mississippi raids and the companies raided. there is a strong connection in your community between el paso and mississippi in the sense a lot of those workers that are working in those chicken plants, those chicken processes plants came through el paso, came from el paso and were part of your

community before they were part of that mississippi community. how would you as president enforce the laws that say employers were not allowed to hire people who are undocumented because as we're seeing it right now, the billionaires that own these companies, nothing happens to them, it's only the people who are working in pretty dangerous jobs that end up getting seized and taken from their kids. how would you enforce that law differently? >> yeah, you're absolutely right. i mean, here are people in this country working the toughest jobs that we can imagine for a minimum wage if they're lucky. i think there are reported instances of wage theft in these processing plants. so maybe making less than a minimum wage, a kind of modern day bondage here in the united states of america. and really the victims are the ones who are being persecuted and prosecuted and torn from their families and the perpetrators get off absolutely scott free.

i think the best possible solution going forward is to legalize those here in this question already who in some instances have been here for decades raising u.s. citizen children, contributing far more to the greatness and success and safety of this country than they can ever possibly take from. imagine how much more they could do as legal permanent residents or as u.s. citizens. and then there needs to be a safe orderly lawful path for people to come to the united states to work and join their families, go to school, comprehensive reform and rewriting of our immigration laws in the image of those communities in mississippi or this community here in el paso, texas. it makes us stronger and safer than we would be otherwise, and i know we can do it. i know republicans, democrats independents alike understand this current immigration system is not working, is inhumane and unjust. and so let's get to work writing

these laws together, implementing them and it resolves these kinds of issues from having to take place again in the future. >> in the meantime, do do you think the ceos of these companies should be prosecuted am? and by the way ploong the people who employs undocumented immigrants and does it operates regularly is donald trump. do you think the employers should be prosecuted? >> yes, they should and it should not just be those immigrants who are bearing the brunt of prosecutions flying in 600 agents into mississippi, not notifying child welfare employees so they could help those terrified kids. this is a terrorizing event in that community, for those families. those kids, i mean that is the face of terror and torture for that child to have her parents taken from her knowing not when or if she's going to see them again, not knowing when or if

she's going to be taken care of, and that is part and parcel of what this administration is doing and the rhetoric you and i were just talking about donald trump employs of invasions and infestations and animals and predsteres coming into our communities to take things from us. though we know they commit crimes at a far lower rate and contribute far more economically and financially than they'll ever be able to draw down over the course of their lives. the only way to meet this challenge is to make sure we have laws that match our values, our traditions, and a much stronger brighter future for everyone including those immigrants here in this country. >> we've been talking a lot about it and before we go, i do want to let you talk about raising money. i know you're raising money for the communities where you live. we've talked a lot this morning about mr. william barr, the attorney general of the united states who is now going to be investigating this jeffrey epstein death. i don't know how much you're going to be able to pay attention to that but if you're

president of the united states does william barr stay in that job? and do you trust him as our attorney general? >> you know, there's got to be accountability. there has to be justice or else in this country you have impunity. and the rule of law dies. this great experiment in democracy goes away, and you have a lawless president who's being aided and abetted right now by a lawness attorney general who is refusing to acknowledge the coequal role congress plays who is refusing to investigate attacks on our democracy and who i'm worried about in investigating the death of epstein and the circumstances surrounding it. and then you have the president of the united states retweeting conspiracies, linking it to a former president of this country, his political enemy, using this position of power and public trust to pursue vengeance using lies and misinformation. again, we need an attorney

general and a government that works for all of us and will stand up for the rule of law, not the petty interests of the current occupant of the white hous house. >> before i let you go, congressman, i know you're raising money for the people who been hurt, very quickly tell those fammies who want to help those kids what can they do? >> there's two great foundations here in elpas helping victims and their families of last week's terror attack. the el pasotuant foundation has a site at epcf.org/victims. we encourage people to donate, to help the families here in el paso and juarez. thank you. >> thank you very much. beto o'rourke, candidate for president, thank you very much. we appreciate your time this morning and all the best to your community. and coming up we mark a very dark moment in american history. that's next. k a very dark moment in american history. that's next.

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two years ago today hundreds of white supremacists swarmed the university of virginia campus in charlottesville, virginia, ahead of a unite the right rally shouting you will not replace us, and jews will not replace us while wielding

flaming ti flaming tiki torches. the next day violence exploded on the streets of charlottesville with a white nationalist plowing his car into the crowd and killing counterprotester heather heyer. "am joy" was on the air just as the violence began and here's what happened when our guest, reverend tracy blackman of the united church of christ joined our show from the scene. >> i was invited in to give a speech to that regard, and as we were closing down -- i've got to go, i've got to go. >> oh, my goodness, i don't know what is happening here, i don't know what just happened there with our guest but we're going to try to find out what happened, and she was standing at the location where it looks like now violence has broken out. >> and joining me now is reverend tracy blackman of the united church of christ.

that was a pretty jarring day and the night before you were also subjected to that tiki torch march. can you just describe for us what it was like being inside that sanctuary when you heard that march coming upon you? >> yes, joy. thank you for having me back on this show. and importantly thank you for joeing up in charlottesville two years ago. being in that church on the night before, a night when we had gathered really just to prepare ourselves for saturday, a night that was supposed to be about an interfaith gathering focused on love and focused on courage and focused on those who did not want such hate coming into their community took a violent turn when we found ourselves surrounded by hundreds of young white men who were chanting as your recording showed saying jews will not replace us and you will not replace us, carrying tiki

torches. as a child from birmingham, alabama, i certainly am not a stranger to such marches. except this time there were no sheets and there were no hoods. there were make america great again hats and oxford shirts and khaki pants and children, in my opinion, who could have been the friends of my children out in the streets supporting and advocating defense of the lie of white supremacy that has infected our country since its invasion from native-americans here. >> you know, this rally what they called unite the right was organized by two white supremacists called jason kessler and richard spencer. and if the name richard spencer sounds familiar to our viewers is because he's the person who coined the term alternative right. he continued that in 2008. he leaves the right think tank,

and it's a sin nom. so when you think about the fact that there was a website called breitbart.com, it still exists but it used boo eto run by a guy that was just on tv on another net, that called itself the home of the alt right and who ran donald trump's campaign, when you think about the fact that richard spencer who coined this term who's a white nationalist is associated with someone called stephen miller, they now try to disavow one another -- the fact that people associated with the alt-right, which is just straight up white nationalism, the fact those people have been or are working in the white house, what do you make of that? >> well, you know, joy, as i was

reflecting on my time to be with you this morning i want to say that what happened in charlottesville two years ago was tragic in a virulent way but also was a missed opportunity for the leadership of this country to stand up and say yes we have this history but this is not who we want to be. so when i look at what has happened over these past two years instead of charlottesville being a wakeup call, charlottesville became a launching pad for our current leadership. yes, the president but not just the president. the entire administration, as well as the religious leaders that are surrounding him, and that ties in this hatred in a way that is entthetical to tante gospel. i am here meeting with you this

morning because i feel it is so important that we begin to call this out. we cannot continue this rampant up-charge of white nationalism cloaked in religious rhetoric that is antithetical to the gospel. so i hold not only the president accountable but i hold these religious leaders as a person of faith, accountable who are preaching and teaching, a gusple that does not reflect at all the image or ministry of jesus christ. so when i see people working in the white house, when i see people working in our schools, when i see people working in all areas of government who are espousing this type of rhetoric it is a sad day for our country once again. >> thank you so much for being here. i would say an editorial comment i would much rather see and hear from you this morning than steve

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i am very disappointed, seeing him starting out with injuries and replacing the quarterback. we got to look forward for next season, caring to do all the right things to win.

how can i not be disappointed. excuse me. >> well, stephen ross, the owner of the miami dolphins is a rich guy who loves to win which could e explain why the two are so ch chummy. >> you may have not heard much about ross before this week. he's a billionaire and global real estate firm developed at the time warner center as well as the $25 billion hudson yard mega-development here in new york city and along of being the owner of miami dolphins and hard rock station in miami. mr. ross became famous as the

mu mustache man who drew a big ticket for donald trump's reelection. people come for the his or han bucks can ask trump what do you mean immigrants being infestation. the backlash after "the washington post" reported the lavish fundraiser was swift, both companies putting out statements. no, we are not maga. representatives of soul cycles say quitting customers and even try to pass him off as a passing investor. which means what? he makes no money from his investment. ross put out a statement saying i have known donald trump for 40 years, while we agree on some issues, we strongly disagree on many others. i have not been and will continue to be an out spoken of champion of racial equality and

inclusion and diversity and public education and environmental and sustainability. what ross would like to specify was what he exactly he and donald trump did agree on. this is what he said in a newly released interview with yahoo finance back in june. >> the economy has never been any stronger than today. >> did you know him when he was a real estate guy in new york? >> i have known him for a long time. >> what was your first impression? >> he's different and he's been successful. you know i like it. >> another words, rich guys like ross justifying supporting trump because they're in it for the tax cuts. the white nationalists, it is like the extra biscuit that they serve at fancy restaurants with

your coffee. you didn't order it, it is on your little plate to consume. mr. ross was reminded by his own player that trumpism is a blue plate special. kenny stills writes, "you can't have a nonprofit with mission statement then open your doors to trump," you can't have a nonprofit with this mission statement then open your doors to trump. in other words, you ordered maga, you got to eat it all. that message was loud and clear on friday during protests in long island where trump headline two fundraisers including one at ross' estate before heading to new jersey for another vacation. trump raised $12 million for these two fundraisers. reporters of the new york times took up the cause of defending

other trump donors from public programs after texas congressman joaquin castro published a list of trump's donors from his estate so voters can know whether to shop. joining me now karine jean-pe r jean-pier jean-pierre and jonathan. >> i am going to go to you first, jonathan. what about this thing about stephen ross saying i like the tax cuts and the racism is like the spinach they serve with your steak. i don't eat that. i just eat the steak.

>> nobody in america, joy, favors every policy a president they approve of. this is a sort of phony argument. donald trump is not an issue about well, i sort of wish the president will do this or that. donald trump is systemically destroying our federal government. he's working hard to increase the power of corporations and take away from individuals. d.c. report has covered trying to end all practical purposes of the clean water act. i hope people read about what he's doing there in d.c. report. and throughout the trump administration, you have this over arching goal "make america white again." it is interesting that ross did not say a word about where he's trying to advance the issues he disagrees with the president about. this was a statement by someone who is inflicted with white skin privilege. i think it is a good thing that

people are looking at the donors. i don't want to do business with you and leaving those businesses. that applies to everybody. if you can't stand the policies or companies out there. go take your business some where else. that's what a competitive business is about. >> you have people complaining karine, oh no, how dare castro tellin saying that. >> i got back an e-mail, no e he's a passive investor. he does not want any money back. he's actually is an investor, ee equinox. >> how dare you identifying us? >> it is pure bs. donald trump has shown his bigotry and racism for many,

many years. there is nothing new there. many of us knew it for a long time. a lot of people either ignored it orloved it. that's what they did in 2015 and 2016 but now he's president of the united states and there are clear policies that we have seen and antiimmigration with the raids and you have babies literally in cages. we know he's a bigot and a racist and also a xenophobe. a long list of phobism that you can think of. if you are supporting donald trump, you are sport aupportingf it and kacan't walk away from i. i am going to separate myself from that. you can't separate donald trump from the racism and the bigotry. you can't at this point. >> let me ask you this. you worked on the most successful democratic campaign

in modern history which is the obama campaign. president obama got slammed by the media for saying people were clinging onto their guns. how dare you insult the people that have guns. hillary clinton was slammed for saying some of donald deplorab. >> the miami dolphin player criticizing donald trump are getting death threats now. what do you make of the new argument which is coming from the trump campaign, how dare you say donald trump voters are racist. >> it goes back for a while the last couple of years since obama been out of office as a hypocrisy. they're a bunch of hypocrites. when it is a democrat, let's call it what it is when it is a democrat, oh my goodness, they're terrible and awful. imagine if this was hillary clinton doing any of this,

right? a third of what donald trump -- >> she would have been impeached twice. >> they would have been impeached and they were not planning that. republicans are silent. they're happy. they got their trump tax cuts and deregulation and lower court judges and supreme court judges. they don't care. they are selling the country for their own happiness and what they are getting in their pocket. >> are you getting this? you are on the radio, you get to interact with people. >> sure. sm sm >> you did have a lot of people quitti quitting equinox. same kpexact thing that soul cye says. i got an e-mail from soul cycle thing. can people separate the money they are giving to donald trump from the racism he's giving them back? >> no. next question.

look, i e-mail equinox, i heard you are having spin classes, is this true? i heard people are asking for citizenship working in those classes. that's not true. i am not kidding. i did. >> there is no time. we got to stand up and speak out for everything. when trump supporters call my show, i try to be respectful. tell me -- tell me what you like best about trump, his sexism or bigotry? can we go through so we know what you are about. do you like the fact that he mocks for reporters and call for a muslim ban, saying they are unsafe somehow and you should not associate with them. the list goes on and on.

they stumble, what about hillary's e-mails? i am not kidding. you are paying for the meals and you get all of it. the buffet is from all your plate. you are doing it for his policy tax returns. it should say stephen ross is d despicable and an insult. they're not giving money in 2016. what he's seeing as well and that's kind of racist. >> you as a biographer of donald trump. donald trump was a joke to a lot of rich people, right? now all of a sudden he seems to be the savior of rich people. >> the thing i remember of the new york real is sestate commun stephen ross, a high profile.

donald trump was considered a carnival act of the community. it was an interesting moment when trump was asked about ross' fundraiser, well, he understands it is hot to be next to me. you may be a democrat and understands that i am hot. you know when he's saying there is he gets that the entire community that disparaged him once is willing to put the morality on the table and bury their ethics and civility in order to do influencing pedaling. >> i don't think ross had to have bought these things through before he decided to sign out. i will bet he was more than to say i know i am going to get grief for this but i got some business out of this. i am happy to throw this in the background. trump comes from an environment where he grew up with his father with all the democratic clubhouse in brooklyn in order to get his deals.

he's not going to back away. there is a bunch of protesters are lining up on the streets in the hamptons. >> 100%. i wrote in my book donald trump has turned america into gotham city. where he's running it like the same sort of scams and he could not get respectability but he can buy his way in. he did get all these big and famous people and the clintons

to show up to his wedding when he married melania. at the end of the day, people want money. a lot of people are willing to say i don't care how much violence or kids lose their parents, i don't care, i just want my money. >> this is a facet of white america. racism and oppression always comes from an economic argument attached to it. i am sure if we went back to the day, i am not in it for slavery. i am sure that was what was happening. disagree with people who thinks there is a moral distinction between people who are excited by the racism and verses people who are merely indifference to racism. you know why? the children who are infant of the streets of mississippi see no moral distinction because stephen ross got a tax cut to look the other way while parents

are being abducted. what needs to happen, i don't know how much money stephen ross needs but i am confident that those children would buy a membership to equinox. their checks are no good in the hamptons. that's why these supporters are just as complicit and cruelty as the man himself. >> donald trump is what he is. the people who are benefiting from what he is, i don't see how they can escape him. i just don't. it is hard to believe that somebody can make a credible argument. maybe they got away with it in 2016 when he was the guy from "the apprentice." this is not faking it anymore. he's literally has the same words. have you read this man's manifesto of what this guy has in texas? it reads like what donald trump

says. >> stephen ross issue brings up something else. our constitution does not say one word of creating this country to make us rich. it talks about justice. it talks about a better society. we are not tactlking about a ci on the hill anymore. how much can we put money on the fabulous rich people like stephen ross which by the way is a welfare king. hudson yard, are enormous welfare operation that you and i as taxpayers are subsidizing. >> can you say it again? i live in south florida and every football stadium in america is a tax subsidized welfare cheat, all of it. go on and say it again. >> even the few stadiums where they claimed they are not subsidies, they are. hudson yard is a huge tax

subsidi subsidize. donald trump is the biggest welfare king history in america relatively the size of his business. taxpayers if you think you are doing well and you got a few crumbs in the tax bill, you have no idea, you have been burden. federal depth is growing three times under obama. and the idea that donald trump is going to be fiscal and responsible, that's absolutely absurd. >> we got a laugh out of this. >> put over this the ali 100%. if you got $500 million, what difference does it make that you have $600 million. are you going to destroy the country for that? >> we'll talk about it on our next block. the thing is that trump is good arguing at is convincing broke

white people. he's their avatar. he's the way they would be when they are rich. there is like a lure that donald trump is putting out because some of the people he's hurting the most are white people. he's taking their farms and tariffs are killing their businesses and destroying their economic lives but sort of drugging them with brown children in cage and drugging them with the suffering of people they think are the cause of their suffering. >> we have said it before. it is worth to say it again. donald trump is the most successful con artist in the history of the world. there is no one close to this point given the amount of power he wheels and policies he can affect and the lives he can damage. >> how does he do it? he does not seem to be super brilliant because if you read his tweets. >> he's not intellectually sophisticated but he has his sensibility of what works on the streets.

saw you this in "the ap apprentice." donald trump is a poor guy idea of how a rich guy lives. he has no sentiment in him about empowering other people or lifting other people up from where they are in the world. regardless of what sex or color they are, there is an added g grotesque -- he thinks working class people as losers. he thinks of them as arriving there because they were destined to be there. that's where this man comes from. he also knows who he is and the way he rolls with women and money and within apartments that look like they're sort of you know heroine dream of louie the 14th, all of those things combined appeals to them. he plays on that sentiment. what he does not do is does not

marry and i care about you working class america or the policies. he has a bunker trade policy emotions of china and hurting farmers and small workers. he ma he's making china laugh at us and the consequence is apparent. >> i dare you to beat the heroine dream of louie the 14th. how do you communicate that to people who are drugged by it, anybody? >> i had people call my show in the past, trump supporters who are white who says he makes me feel better to be white again, better to be a white person. he makes me feel good about being a white person. he speaks the victim hood

language. they look at him as a champion. >> don't communicate to them. you beat them. they're not a majority of this country. the majority of white people in this country is not a majority of this country. all the people who are not fooled by this come together and go to the polls and do whatever you have to do. you do not negotiate with these people. you destroy them. >> by the way, the black man says beat in the poll. >> don't go for the black man who says beating in the polls. >> if you think the last two years of this trump administration is bad? imagine he gets reelected. two years point, elie, people got to go out there and register to vote and work for our campaign. get out there. >> how bad would it be? tell us the worse? >> the courts will continue to get packed with conservatives, you will have an in effective and unsophisticated tax policies and american moment of racial

quality twisted. >> dogs and cats living together. >> david. >> you will have many more families torn apart by donald trump with this cruelty towards little children, remember donald trump wrote that he gets pleasure from destroying the lives of other people. people need to know that. they don't. >> absolutely. >> sometimes never to go back to their parents. adoption now and all kinds of nightma nightmare. karine and louie will be back on the show, thank you very much. coming up, democrats finally start to talk the talk. that's next. start to talk the talk that's next. (vo) the hamsters, run hopelessly in their cage. content on their endless quest, to nowhere. but perhaps this year, a more exhilarating endeavor awaits.

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this president fan flames white supremacists. he seems more concerned of losing their votes. >> anti-latino and immigrant hatred that we witness this past weekend did not start with the hand that pulled the trigger. from the highest office in our land, we see in tweets and rhetoric, hateful words that ultimately endangered the lives of people in our country. >> the president of the united

states in office made eat clear that he's president only because of his fans. the people have figured out what the 2020 election will be about. donald trump's racism and divisiveness of the country into a cruel reality show. the question whether americans want to stay trap in that show for four more years. the candidates are listening to my next guest. tim wise. thank you for coming back. you came on the show and our interviews, you have made it clear the way you run against donald trump is to make clear of what he is. here are a few candidates doing just that. >> he tries to stir these um and embrace why the white supremacists and say oh, but not me. >> do you think president trump is a white premium cysupremacis?

>> i do. >> is the president a white supremacist? >> he is. >> he believes president trump is a white supremacist, do you agree? >> i do. >> based on his words and actions, yes, he's a white supremacist. >> it is evident that seems to be his belief, sure. >> the caveat of joe biden and kamala harris have shy back. they went one step back. they say he's encouraging white supremacy. do you think these candidates are on the right track. >> certainly compares to where they were before. this is important. this election is not simply about what you will do as president, it is about who we are as a nation. that's the exitential question that's posed by trump. they have to frame that threat as the existential crisis as it

is. i would say the slogan, we'll not negotiate with terrorism anymore. terrorizing families at the border and terrorizing the fundamental principles that we as a nation adhere to. the slogan is make america, america. we have been two things, one is the ideal and the practice. it is time for candidates to talk about that. we'll get to the policy together. unless they frame it as an existential threat, i don't think they have a chance. >> give a little help and language. you and i both know one of the things democrats obsessed most about is white voters. how do they talk to those voters in a way. how do they talk to those people? >> the reality is those voters are scared.

that's why they are voting for trump in the first place. you have one candidate whose entire message is prejudice and fear. the way you respond to a politic of fear is with politic of hope and optism mism for a better future. the candidates need good plans. those folks they are worried about are not sitting in their kitchen or study at night or in the living room or out in the porch looking at ten-point policy proposal on a website. they want to know what the country is going to be like for everyone's family so yes, you want to get some of those voters. let's be clear, the trump's base are not going to move. when i worked in the campaign against david duke, even though people knew he was a nazi, he retained 90% of his original voters. why? in order for them to turn on duke, they would have to admit they voted for a monster.

people don't want to admit they did that. you need to super charge the base and get those reasonable republicans who say they are against trump to not just sit on their sofa and not vote at all. they have to suck it up and fight for the country and they're going to do that if there is a message of unity and progressive values moving forward where as if it is on policy, we got 30 million different policies where dno on could agree. those are the things that are under attack. >> joe biden the front runner launched his campaign on charlotte, we have to fight back. he has been loefsz whess of whae saying. he's less direct about it. are you concerned the ultimate candidate whine up hedging because they are so afraid there will be a deplorable backlash if they're saying what you are saying. >> i am worried of what the candidate is -- the truth is,

this is not a normal election. we discussed it before. you can't treat trump and trumpism like a normal campaign. it may be possible to squeak out a victory against trump with a number of different strategies. you may be able to cobble together the athletelectoral vo. it has to be about reputeuating trumpism. if only trump loses, you got turning point usa where they try to clone this guy. trumpism can come back again with brighter management and we don't need that. tim wise, i hope they'll listen to you more. we'll keep on putting you on tv until they get it. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> the 2020 react to the death of jeffery epstein. th of jeffery epstein if you have moderate to severe psoriasis,

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the circumstances surrounding it and you have the president of the united states tweeting conspiracy theories linking it to a former president of this country. >> what he's doing is dangerous. he's living his life through conspiracy theory but putting people up into anger and war

against different people in this country. >> okay, cory booker. two of the democratic candidates calling out president trump for pu pushing conspiracy on epstein. how an inmate whose that high profile could die while in the custody of a federal government. the trump administration, karine jean-pierre. elie, the new york time hs has story "epstein was 4releft alon and not close limon toed before jail suicide." that procedure was not being followed the night before he was found. the jail transferred his cell

mate and allowed mr. epstein to be held alone two weeks after he was taken off suicide watch. you are a defense attorney? >> corporal litigator. >> does this sound normal to you that a federal institution of incarceration would take somebody who alleged to try to commit suicide. his family says no, he was attacked two weeks ago. you still had him on suicide watch. you don't give him any guards. what do you think about that? >> somebody allow this to happen and the only person with the authority to allow this to happen goes up through the federal bureau of prisons. >> right. >> the federal bureau of prisons

reports to the department of justice. >> who runs the department of justice? >> attorney william barr. he has done nothing but a stooge for the trump administration. >> do you trust william barr to handle this case? >> it is also that william barr has done nothing to make me trust him. i know that people are going to say i am wearing the drape around my head and i understand the problem of where we are going. instead of being angry at people who are treating this like a myste mystery, right? we need to understand that the federal government to this point has done nothing and gender the trust of the nation and this is what happens when you have a government that nobody can trust. >> also, those who know him just

as a -- in this situation, we heard beto o'rourke in my interview with him, he does not trust william barr. there is a general sense of a lot of people that do not have a lot of trust there. to your knowledge, could an outside person even if they were former president of the united states in some way control the procedures at a federal bureau of prison. could a former president impact the procedures which a federal prison is housed, could he do that? >> i saw him at "house of cards" or homeland. >> he died in trump administration custody. i was dealing with trump on twitter yesterday alleging bill clinton and hillary clinton's involvement. it makes no sense. bill barr is going to do a special in query. >> and summarizing it. >> look. there has to be an

investigation. there are some powerful republican men and democratic, very happy that epstein is dead. that's the common denominator. some powerful men were happy he's dead. i do not trust bill barr. >> here is the thing, karine. the favorite past time is clinton's conspiracy and second is conspiracy theory of president obama. the first past time is they gone back home to mama. here is kellyanne conway, i asked the question this morning. have they gone so low. has t has it gotten so bad that donald trump can get his people to repeat the insane conspiracy of the clinton's while being paid by the united states taxpayers. the wife of george conway who's been slamming trump, all the

irony, here is his wife. >> why did the president retweet that? >> i think the president wants everything to be investigated as your reporter just revealed just the day before. there are some unsealed i information indicating some people high up. i am not going to repeat their names. >> it was clear of what he's trying to say, was it? >> i think the president wants everything investigated and trying to connect the president to this monster from years ago where they were seen dancing in the videos verses other people who were actively flying around with this monster on his island which was known as pedophilia

islands. >> donald trump was not dancing in the video with epstein, he called him a really good friend. this woman, i wonder who he meets the 25th amendment material about. >> his wife said we should look into this conspiracy. >> absolutely. >> i am not a lawyer. i just play one on tv. [ laughter ] >> you make a good one. but, there is no low for this administration, joy. >> you worked in the white house. how do you not? it is not supposed to be this way. >> how do you get -- it goes back to joy, the hypocrisy of ate ait all. and under president obama. it is a 2020 campaign arm for him. this is what he's doeing. he's going to do the same thing with the dni and not going to stop. the sickness of it, too, it is not just donald trump is doing

this really attacking our democracy, shredding our constitution day in and day out. but, the people around him as we just saw. >> yes. >> degrading himself. >> kellyanne conway was a respectful pollster at one point in her life and now she's repeating conspiracy theory on behalf of who? donald trump. it makes no sense at all to that level that you would degrade yourself where your husband is literally calling you out on twitter and your boss out on twitter. >> just because you did work in the white house and unique in this table to that regard. there is subject subductive. people want to work in the white house. t kellyanne conway is publicly

repeating insanity because he says she has to. >> i worked in the obama administration. >> i would never happen in the obama administration. >> you work on behalf of the citizens of the people who your president represents, right or your boss represents. yes, you are working for the pleasure of. obama would never allowed it to happen. that's the difference. we all know what we are going in for. we know the platform that we are trying to push and what we are going to do. it would just never -- there is no kingdom or dictator ship. it is a democracy. that's the difference. it is the way that donald trump kind of ask for loyalty, demands loyalty and punishes you. if you don't give it. >> you can ask but you don't have to say yes. >> there is an aspect, i can't speak for kellyanne conway's soul.

trump can't make me do this. obama could not make me do this. jesus christ could not make me do this. you will kneel at some point. when we say she's been forced or asked. she wants this. there is something in her that allows her to do this. there is something in all of these republicans right now that allows them to do this which is really problematic. >> can i show one more act? this is the acting chief of the cbp, border patrol. this is another incident of the same thing. it is the thing that he makes you say and do. i can't imagine at this point working for i.c.e. i can't imagine being the person grabbing little kid's daddy and drags him into a bus with other mommies and daddies. i can't imagine being the person putting the baby in cage or staying and keeping that job or wanting that job just because i can't imagine being that person.

demagogue makes you degrade yourself and degrade other people and degrade yourself in the process. here is somebody who works for border patrol which is supposed to be an institution that protects the united states. it is becoming an institution that terrifies people. here he is explaining these raids in mississippi in response to the little girl crying. >> the girl, i know it is emotional. i know it is donald's purpose to show a picture like that? >> what's donald purpose? >> to show the girl? >> people in the wake of these raids, we interview people who are affected by it. >> first of all, they are here illegally and a lot of times there are additional fraud for them to go through and getting jobs. i understand the girl is upset but her father committed a crime. >> dean, i kancan't. >> this is not an

administration, this is a trump regime. it does not look like what we have seen before. it is not something we have seen before. it dmou it does not matter. turning people against each other with no solutions and hope for violence. that's what's going on. the heartbreaking video of the 11 years old girl who cried through tears, i want my daddy. they did not have a criminal record. two-thirds over stayed their visas. they have no kmags compassion o concern. trumpism is callous and mean spirited. >> that man just lie. >> we don't know that. we have a process for that. he's taking away the process that this man was entitled to. we'll bring all of you guys back for next time. let me tell you those people were doing in mississippi, feeding y'all. you like chicken strips or nuggets?

people like that working their behinds off getting injured and getting paid crappy money and barely able to stay in the country. that's feeding ya. we'll do who won the week and we'll come back. we'll do who wo we'll come back. and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. e-commerce deliveries to homes we're going all in thion strawberries.ra, at their reddest, ripest, they make everything better. like our strawberry poppyseed salad and new strawberry summer caprese salad. order online for delivery. panera. food as it should be dprevagen is the number onemild memopharmacist-recommendedng? memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life.

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it is time to tell you -- who won the week. who won the week? >> this was a tough week. i had to go back to my mr. rogers training and look for the helps. i found glenden oakley. a 22-year-old american veteran who in the el paso shooting was armed but put his gun down and went and saved children. he carried them out by just in his bare hands, carrying them away from danger. saved as many as 13 children. a true hero. he was a helper and he was the person who we needed this week. >> i miss mr. rogers. that was a good one. can you beat that one? >> i think i can. race m boldened. he's an olympic medalist on the fencing team in the pan-american

games yesterday. he took a knee during the national anthem. he took a knee and then tweeted about it and said how he is disappointed in this country and talked about guns and violence and racism and the anti-immigration kind of rhetoric coming out of donald trump. it was -- and the reason he wins the week for me is he's a young white kid, 26-year-old. we always ask people you have white friends who say what can i do? they want to be allies. this is it. use your platform to talk about something that's incredibly important, especially in this country like racism, anti-immigration, and he might actually get in trouble for this. like, this could hurt him, the committee is going to meet about it because he took a knee, and i just kudos to him for doing that. it's important. white allies, this is what you do. >> he's not going to get in trouble. black twitter, come to his defense. they won't let you down. okay. dean? >> who i wanted to win the week was the new jersey governor who

asked me, took a dem and take over donald trump's golf course. put a road through it. the person that i thought won, is a 24-year-old guy. it's not as serious as you but is inspiring. he was almost homeless trying for two years training on his own to make it to the nfl. on thursday he ran a punt return back for 84 yards. his team swamped him. they know his story. he slept outside for two days outside the facility because he could not afford a hotel room. he's been getting himself ready for this room. inspiring. this week in such a dark week, anything that was inspiring, remarkable moment, this is it. >> that's awesome. these are good answers. and you know what? it's fitting. my choice for who won the week and we're going to say all these guys won the week. my choice is somebody who gave

us what we needed the most this week, a smile. green guy. here he is. green shirt guy. green shirt guy. he laughed as a trump supporter tried to say a bunch of stuff that was anti-immigrant and mean and in a t shirt that was supersmall, she was trying to tell everybody the immigrants need to go home. green guy had an answer. the answer was to smile and laugh. we needed a laugh this week. there she was. yes, yes, yes, whatever. yes. i don't know if he was laughing because she bought her shirt in the children's section instead of in the grown girl's section or if he was amused by the moment, but he's alex kak. he was in tucson, arizona at a meeting. they were contemplating a bill about a sanctuary city initiative for the november ballot. he just laughed and laughed. thank you very much to our guests. love you guys. let us also give a salute to

shelby bassaluth. embarrass her. show her. there she is. we love to show off our lovely interns. this is shelby's last day. her parents who always get the credit for all good things that children do because -- she's not a child. she's a grown woman. everybody, thank you very much. more "a.m. joy" after the break. play it. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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that is our show. thank you for watching. we'll be back next saturday at 10:00 a.m. up next, morgan rat ford. >> i love watching your show. i always get a little bit smarter. >> thank you. have a great show. >> good afternoon to all of you from msnbc world head quarters in new york. it's high noon in the east. 9:00 out west and welcome to weekends with alex whit. alex is off today and i'm morgan radford. new details this hour in the death of jeffrey epstein. but still, more questions than answers. >> this is just more recklessness. what he's doing is dangerous. >> plus outrage on the campaign trail. the president's tweet about jeffrey epstein's death sparks

explosive talk