♪ this is "up." this morning as the battle over immigration continues to escalate there were two huge stories this morning about how stephen miller continues to shape president trump's policies. >> infestations which is what we call cockroaches, that's what the president of the united states used to describe human beings. >> a city of roses this morning, the morning after. how police responded to clashes between white supremacists and antifa protestors in portland, oregon. >> there's no two sides. there's nazi and not nazi. >> they're targeting us because it's a liberal city with progressive values and they know they'll get a rise out of us. >> a new report says workers at a plant in pennsylvania were paid overtime to attend a speech the president gave there. this week we learned his obsession with crowd size has not subsided. >> that was some -- we had twice the number outside.

>> it is sunday, august 18th and the president trump administration's immigration proposals are drawing criticism and accusations of hypocrisy. >> poor immigrants will be denied permanent legal status if they are deemed likely to use government benefit programs. really? because i know of at least one immigrant lady who lives in really nice public housing and pretty much only works on christmas. >> with me this morning, tim o'brian, the executive educator of broloomberg. joining us, the author of "a good provider is one who lives." that book is scheduled to be published on tuesday of this week. jason is with us because he wrote one of those stephen miller profiles i mentioned at the top of the show. i want to begin with the trump

administration's efforts to limit the number of immigrants coming to the u.s. ken cuccinelli is the acting director of citizenship and immigration services. >> we certainly expect people of any income to be able to stand on their own two feet, and so if people are not able to be self-sufficient, then this negative factor is going to bear very heavily against them in a decision about whether they'll be able to become a legal permanent resident. >> this weekend bloomberg news is reporting that for months stephen miller, has been spearheading an effort to block undocumented immigrants from enrolling in public schools but he can't seem to find his way around a supreme court ruling that guarantees access to an education. he has influence on virtually

every element of immigration policy. he has guided a series of policy changes to critics likened to building an invisible wall. let me start there if i could. i want to dig into the relationship that the president has with stephen miller. we focus on the big stories, we focus on the physical wall. help us understand the context of all that stephen miller has been able to accomplish without regular scrutiny, without the public eye. >> most of the coverage recently has been on the border disputes and the purges inside the department of homeland security, but out of view the trump administration, often with stephen miller's guidance, has been prom you will gating dozens, scores of rules and regulations that make it harder in many cases for legal immigrants to enter the country. >> your piece is about stephen miller but also what gave rise to him, in which he came of age.

talk about that and what's happened to the republican party. >> i think there's been a lot of focus on his personality, his often abrasive statements, but stephen miller is the product of a larger movement that's been operating for several decades and has been abetted by some large changes in political context arranging from 9/11 to outsourcing which has reduced support among business interests for immigration in the united states to demographics, the rise of immigration across the south, the heart of the gop. miller is often the face of the movement but it's a much broader phenomenon. >> he's been pushing for restrictionism. you look at the republican party. there was sympathy for immigrants. there was for a time thought that you could get immigrants to vote republican, they could be brought into the fold. that was the case under president reagan, president

george h.w. bush and president bush. what's changed in help us understand the way the republican party has moved toward restrictionism? >> i wrote a book called "the pursuit of the american dream" so i thought about this in the context of black immigrants who at one point seemed ripe for the picking for the republican party. there's been a nativist undercurrent for the party which has tapped into the anti-black white supremacist roots of this nation. so as the republican party moves in that direction, as lyndon baynes johnson said, if you can convince the poorest white man that he's better than the negro -- and now you can insert immigrants or mexican -- you can pick his pockets all day long. there's the scenario that you do not have, not because of our tax policies or trade policies or the highest levels of the government, if you don't have

the life that you want or the job that you need or the health care that you should have or the education that should be promised to you, it's not because of our policies as republicans, it's because of these immigrants working in powellt poultry factors or black americans working in someplace not even in your own state. we constantly talk about the economics of a trump voter and the economics of the republican party and the economics of anxiety but we're constantly ignoring the racial animus that is the foundation of most of the policy that's been promulgated for the last 15 to 30 years in that party. >> you eenumerate how many influence stephen miller has, from the words that the president uses to the regulations he prom you will gaits. you chart his origin story from santa monica to your alma mater to duke, to washington d.c. where he worked for michele bachmann and jeff sessions. help us understand how he came

into the trump fold, how this relationship came about between him and the persisteand the pree united states. >> he worked for jeff sessions in the senate. senator sessions is one of the most adamant opponents of immigration and donald trump used to talk to breitbart when miller was talking to breitbart as well. miller told his friends he wished trump would run for president, and as soon as he did miller started working behind the scenes on the campaign and formally joined him. >> tim, how were the presidents beliefs on this matter? there's been reporting about the trump organization and its use of immigrant labor. how closely held are the president's beliefs when it comes to immigration? how easily could he be swayed about what stephen miller was espousing and these restrictionist policies that he was bringing to the president? >> i think he's very easily swayed because he doesn't hold any policy very close to the vest or close to his heart. he's not in any of this for

policy. he can be inflammatory. he campaigns on these things but he's never been a student of the finer points of any policy including immigration. ais you note, he's hypocritical. he runs hotels and golf courses that are dependent on migrant labor and his businesses wouldn't thrive without that. two of his three wives were immigrants. his in-laws are the benefits of chain migration which stephen miller has railed against. you have all these things in his own background that do not make him a fervent anti-immigrationist but he is a fervent poll um cyst about immigration. stephen miller animates the president's policy on this and i think stephen miller is driving the car when it comes to this, not trump. >> who taught him how to drive the car? think of the role he has here. he's espousing these views but i don't believe he's a lawyer but he's trying to craft a lot of

policy proposals within the government. you look at the muslim travel ban for example. that was something where they threw it at the wall and saw what stick. it was something he pioneered and tried to work on. how has he developed this shaping policy not having a legal background? >> i'm struck by the moment that he has become a survivor in the trump administration. in another administration he would be one of half a dozen, a dozen aides and he would be trying to push his agenda against other folks. as tim was mentioning, the president doesn't seem to have heartfelt beliefs on this issue, although he understands it as core to his political identity and what got him elected. but every time he gets into an escalated mode, even miller seems nervous that the president might stray from this agenda. what he's managed to do is engineer a situation where he can surround the president with people that are of the restrictionist mind-set at those

very key moments. when we saw that there might be a year or so ago a deal perhaps on the dreamers, all of a sudden the president reverses himself almost within the course of 24 hours. miller has proven to be a very skilled bureaucratic player. i think he picked some of that up from his time in the senate but also some of it is understanding he's not a typical capitol hill player. i think capitol hill players tend to be consensus builders, tend to be trying to cut a deal, especially at the staff level. he is someone who's managed to use social media, use some of the more fringe figures to influence the system in a way that makes sure that his agenda goes forward and perhaps more importantly the agenda of others who oppose him. >> can i just say, this is the first time that i might slightly disagree. >> please, go ahead. >> i do think that trump possesses this machiavellian

idea. i think that he can be swayed, but when it comes to this issue, if we look at the last 40 years of knowing donald j. trump, we do know that he is actually a white nationalist. we do know that he thinks certain ethnic groups are better than others. we do know that he thinks that whites are smarter than blacks, latinos, asians and everyone else. when it comes to immigration, this is the one issue where he does have a core because fundamentally he sees european immigrants as better than the others who would be infestations, who would be browner, blacker immigrants coming in to destroy what he feels is his country and his city. >> he's a racist and he's an anti-immigrant absolutist, but he doesn't know how to wed that to policy the way that miller has and i think that's what's dangerous here about stephen

miller. >> how much of that is him, is stephen miller? you talked to conservatives on immigration and looked at immigration about changing green card rules and he said it's not entirely symbolic but mostly symbolic. how much of this is stephen miller having a mastery of what's symbolic or a cruel or dra i don't even kn -- how much of it is his own making? >> i think he works at two levels, the symbolic level. there was a famous incident in the white house briefing room where he talked about why the statue of liberty should not be a symbol of welcome to immigrants. he's definitely working working at the symbolic level bullt whas interesting about him is he works quite granularly as well and that public charge rule that tim was just talking about is a perfect example. i think the quote from mark was

that the movement had shared principles for many years and stephen knew how to operationalize them. >> thank you very much for the piece and joining us. much more ahead including the latest polling from nbc news and "the wall street journal" on the president, on 2020 and on gun policy. first, clashes breaking out between right wing agitators and antifa protestors and the president thinking of naming antifa an organization of terror. the protest in portland happening as there are rallies around the country after recent shootings in el paso and dayton. a mother taking on the era is going to join us next. >> when the second amendment was ratified, they were talking about muskets. we're not talking about muskets. we're talking about assault rifles. we're talking about weapons of mass destruction that can kill people. n kill people

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i decided that i wanted to go for electrical engineering and you need to go to college for that. if i didn't have internet in the home i would have to give up more time with my kids. which is the main reason i left the military. everybody wants more for their kids, but i feel like with my kids, they measurably get more than i ever got. and i get to do that. i get to provide that for them.

. there were clashes yesterday in portland, oregon between right wing demonstrators and counter-protesters. there were 13 arrests in total and i want to get an update now from my colleague steve patterson who joins us this morning from portland, oregon. i saw your reporting yesterday was all of this was unfolding. there was a lot of movement between the parts. help us understand what happened yesterday and the degree to

which law enforcement was able to keep these protests separate as much as they could and under control. >> reporter: yeah, david, this was essentially a planned and promoted clash between these two factions on the far left and the far right for weeks. this could have devolved easily into a street brawl but it just didn't. so you have the third faction, police and city officials claiming victory because they essentially averted a crisis. as you mentioned, mostly able to keep those two groups separated without using a whole lot of force. you have to think about what they were up against. you have these far right agitators coming in from all over the pacific northwest. as they told us in person, they're there for the explicit purpose to goad and prod and taunt the left into a street fight. then here in portland you have more anonymous people clad in all black, the antifa movement, ready to oblige the right with a fight of their own meeting together. when you're in these crowds, the

sense of tension yesterday morning was palpable. when you're in a good crowd you hear chanting, songs, speakers. these crowds were literally milling about, basically essentially looking for each other, looking for a street fight. but as the day goes on, it got clearer and clearer that that zone of impact got smaller because police were able to keep an upper hand on it by keeping those two groups as we mentioned separated. as you said, 13 arrests, 6 injuries but by and large when you look at the overall whole situation and how it ended, this was largely a peaceful affair, david. >> steve patterson reporting from portland, oregon, thank you for getting up early to join us. there are protests taking place across the country this weekend focused on gun control and gun policy. marches are planned in all 50 states aimed at pressuring the senate to pass legislation and to back red flag laws in states across the country. mrs. beagle shulman has been part of that movement and she joins us now.

thank you very much for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> i want to ask you how your work dovetails. you have a foundation in your son's memory. how does that dovetail with this march or movement to affect change. a lot of people look at the historic might of the nra and wonder what the other side is like. how do you interface it between the two? help us understand that. >> well, reasonable gun safety is not a partisan issue. it's ridiculous. reasonable gun safety is common sense and this is what i say all the time. we really need the right and the left to move to the middle. this is all about the safety of all of us. we have the right to be safe. we the people have the right to be safe. the fact that the right wants to hold their position and the left wants to hold their position, what are they doing? they're supposed to be working for the people of the united states. they're not doing their job.

president trump, senator mcconnell, they need to do their job. they need to do what's good for everyone. if you ask anyone, do you want to be safe, do you want your children to be safe, your grandchildren, your friends, your co-workers, give me one person who says no. that's their job. their job is to keep us safe. that was scott's job. scott's job was to keep his students safe and that's what he did. if this red flag law was enact federally on february 13th, my son, my son scott, would be here today. the other 16 innocent lives that were taken would be here today because that active shooter would not have even had the chance to step into that school. >> i found covering gun policy that if you have a one-on-one conversation with someone there is bound to be more agreement. there are things that folks of all backgrounds and beliefs agree upon. when you look at what you're seeing from senate leadership in this case, yes, it's august, they're in process but you see

an unwillingness to engage with this issue by senate leadership. what engenders optimism in you? we talk about the unfortunate cycle of all of this. you've lived through that. you feel like things are regrettably the same after these tragedies take place. what fwigives you optimism that there are going to be policy changes as a result? >> the people, not the politicians, the people. we have to keep pushing and fighting and proving, like you say, talk one-on-one. i talk one-on-one all the time. i say to somebody give me ten minutes, erase your mind and let's have a conversation. forget your political philosophies. let's just have a conversation. everybody at the end of that conversation will meet me in the middle, gun owners, nongun owners. it doesn't matter. we all want to be safe. i am positive. i am positive that the people can make the difference. our voices need to continue to be heard and that's what we're going to do. we're going to do it and if the politicians don't want to do anything, we will vote them out.

that's what we have to do if they don't want to listen. they're supposed to be working for the people, not for gun lobbyists, not for the in nra and not for money. lives are way more important than money and the politicians need to understand that. >> josh, you covered washington for a long time here and it's a cliche question but i wonder if this time feels different. we're talking about red flag laws, and yes, there's movement on that. it's not, at least as i see it, a movement for a federal law but there's a program that can be put in place, tieing grants to these states that put the laws into effect. has this conversation changed to things that are actionable, a focused conversation that could lead to something happening in washington today? >> i think it has moved forward somewhat but i always get the sense that it's going to roll back to where it was before. i felt that way again this week. initially we had president trump say that he thought that maybe there could be legislation in this area, then maybe there

could be some kind of national background check law put into place that we don't currently have. then it was only a matter of about 72 hours or so and he seemed to shift completely. he started talking about reinstitutionalizing mentally ill people, that that was going to be the solution to the gun violence problem in america, most which has nothing to do with mentally ill people unless we set aside the fact that guns kill tens of thousands of people through suicide which is a big problem as well. so i just have my doubts that unless we see this issue being escalated on a regular basis that it won't regress to where it was before. >> that's what you're doing and i wonder as you listen to josh talk about that how much you pay attention to the president, how much of what he's saying, what he backs, what a might favor a barometer of where the policy conversation is. who are you looking for guidance from on that? >> it's certainly not the president. i don't think that -- i think the president says one thing today and probably by evening

he's talking about something else. it's all about putting himself in the media and making him look good. i don't think he's helped us one iota when it comes to gun safety laws. we the people, like you said, we have to keep pushing and if we keep pushing they have no choice but to start listening. they have to listen and if they don't listen, we're just going to push them out and we have to keep at it. that's what we're doing and that's what the recess rally was all about. we have to continue to be heard. we can't just let a mass shooting take place and then all of a sudden let's say it happens on monday, by friday it withers away and monday there's something else. we have to keep at it and that's what we're doing. i have to be positive because if we don't continue to be positive, what are we doing? >> christina, how much has the landscape changed as you see it? you mentioned the recess rallies. there's big spending now on advertising as well. we're headed towards an election. this is part of a conversation surrounding our politics in the way that it hasn't been.

>> i agree, i'm actually optimistic just because unfortunately this violence is touching communities across the nation, across class, across racial and ethnic identity. we can think about the pulse shooting in florida which specifically targeted the homosexual community. we can think about wealthier communities. we can think about sandy hook and small children. we can think about gun violence and new orleans, chicago, and even brooklyn. so i think that when i talk to my students and i remember my mother telling me that when they were younger they had drills for russia and the cold war, right? now my students are telling me about their gun violence drills and how they've had them for several years. this is part of their educational fabric which is problematic and they're tired of it. as they think about not just who they support but the types of platforms they're going to run on when they're running for city council or state legislature or for congress and hopefully some

of my students will one day run for governorships and senatorships and even the president. this is a real issue that has affected them because some of my students have lost friends and classmates to gun violence. smaller mass shootings that possibly didn't get as much attention for the national media but they were still affected and their communities were still affected. i think that's what makes me optimistic to see that the new generation z and the millennial generation, they're frustrated and i think that they actually have the tools to take action that they see that our elected officials are being bought and sold by the nra and gun lobbyists. >> thank you very much for being here. her fund that she runs in honor of her son. president trump seems ready to make a deal with the taliban. we're reportedly days away from seeing an agreement that could lead to withdrawal of the troops ahead of the presidential election after a suicide bombing in kabul overnight. more deals when we return. in kabul overnight

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overnight a suicide bomb killed 63 men, women and children in afghanistan. there have been more attacks in kabul in recent months but as that's been happening u.s.

negotiators have been trying to hammer out a deal with the taliban. president trump has been meeting with his national security team to discuss a possible withdrawal of u.s. troops and that has been met with bipartisan pushback. experts and members of congress, including the president's close ally, senator lindsey graham, worry that may make it harder to negotiate and the taliban may retake control of that country. help us understand how we got to this point. the ambassador is leading this effort. there have been nine iterations of talks between the u.s. and afghanistan. this is an astonishing thing that we would be in talks with the taliban after this 19-year commitment to being in afghanistan. i don't think we should lose sight of that. this is an extraordinary thing. >> absolutely. i was at treasury when we had the conversation about starting talks with the taliban under the president obama administration and i remember at the time thinking, what are you, crazy? these are terrorists.

the fact of the matter is back then there was an agreement among everybody that this was not going to end in a military solution. it needed to be a diplomatic solution or a peace solution. the reason president obama couldn't carry it through was because of all the complications associated with it, particularly related to the taliban, not agreeing to a cease-fire, not agreeing to cutting its ties to al qaeda, not wanting to deal with the afghan government. so that's continued. now president trump has carried that through. i think it's important to note that both sides of the aisle agree on a need to end this, on a need to withdraw, but at the end of the day the problem is you have a looming election and a president who has campaigned on withdrawing from afghanistan. his contenders have said we want to get out of the never ending wars but if you withdraw too quickly you're going to have a breeding ground for terrorism again and the reason that matters is because that's what caused us the problem from the beginning that led to osama bin laden to his rise, that allowed

him to build al qaeda and affect us on our homeland. >> there's a tim by peter fever who was on the national security council and said this centers on a really important question, did the united states win or lose. he goes back to vietnam and the legacy of that conflict. that's what this centers on now as well. yes, there's talk of withdrawing or ending this, having some sort of peace deal brokered but that's the question that's going to come up as a result of the 19 years that we spent in afghanistan. >> the taliban right now is in a better military and political position now than they were 19 years ago, so if the standard is were the taliban uprooted, no. have we permanently erased the possibility that that could be a hot bed of terrorism or a national security threat in the future, no. is there an easy solution to this, no. i don't think it lends itself to military solution. you don't have pakistan entering into any of this in a constructive way. you've got other regional problems emerging in cashmere

that are going to, i think, set up all sorts of religious second to violence and i don't think there's a good solution. >> i want to get back to this broader point about what the national security team is trying to do and what the president is trying to do or what he's preventing them from doing as a result of what he's doing as well. this notion of the president wanting a precipitous withdraw versus them wanting to think this out more thoroughly, how complicating does that make this? >> it's a little bit of a mess. it's awkward, right? tim and i were talking about this. this is a complicated issue. we cannot be the world's police. it's just not -- we can't do that. we've spent an inordinate amount of resources in afghanistan. we don't want to be there forever and president trump is not wrong to argue that point as really leaders on both sides of the aisle do. it's complicated and there's a reason why military officials have said, okay, listen, we agree that that's the goal but we have to do it in a timely

way, in a way that makes sense. >> structured way. >> right, in a very thoughtful manner. the one key point that tim and i were talking about earlier, we have no leverage over the taliban. with the taliban, you can't sanction them. >> it's not a sovereign nation. >> exactly. >> last question to you, and that's about congress' role here. you look at the criticism from senator graham and it's again what we've seen time and time again. the president is going around congress, circumventing congress. >> this goes back to the conversation we've been having for how long which is this president fundamentally does not understand the role of the presidency or how he's supposed to interact with the two other branches of government. he thinks that he is the king and congress is supposed to do as he says. he doesn't understand that these 435 members of the house and 100

senators have been elected by the people to represent them. because, as we talked about earlier, the president doesn't have any sort of moral core or foundation in policy or ideas or any thoughts on how a nation should behave, he's susceptible to have a conversation with someone that's like, you know what, let's do that and not even listen to the military personnel who spent their entire lives and decades as public servants really thinking about these ideas and the complexities of what happens. >> thank you very much for being here. >> thanks for having me. president trump taking on the media this morning. we have the make america great again tweet a few months ago. he was fwetweeting about his po numbers yesterday. today he writes the failing "new york times," one of the most devastating portrayals of bad jurmism in history got caught by a leaker that they are shifting from their phony russian

conclusion narrative. the president writes, it's reached a new low in the history of our country. much more on what the president has been tweeting about, namely, about crowd size, when we continue. about, namely, about crowd size, when we continue where in the world you're from. and with new features and richer stories, it can lead you on an unexpected journey... ...that brings you closer to home... it's only $59 to discover your heritage... so instead of telling stories of where you went... ...you can tell the story of where you come from. get your dna kit (now) for just $59 at ancestry.com.

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♪ [ chuckles ] i'm done with this class. -you're not even enrolled in this class. -i know. i'm supposed to be in ceramics. do you know -- -room 303. -oh. thank you. -yeah. -good luck, everybody. this was the largest audience to ever witness an inauguration, period, both in person and around the globe. >> this is "up." two and a half years into donald trump's presidency some things

have not changed. the president still cares an awful lot about crowd size. in texas he brought it up with doctors and nurses who had treated victims of the shooting in el paso. he reminisced with them about a rally he held there in february. >> that was some crowd. >> thank you. >> we've got twice the number outside and then you have this crazy beto. beto had like 400 people in a parking lot. >> last week president trump spoke at a campaign event in manchester, new hampshire in the snhu arena. in that building a capacity crowd is 11,770 but who's counting. well, the president is. the place was maxed out, he wrote, totally packed with thousands coming to the arena floor. the president said there were thousands more outside. he has tweeted about the size of the crowd at this rally in manchester, no fewer than 12 times since. it's kind of strange because the arena is not a huge venue. it's not the carrier dome which

can seat 49,250. it's not the national mall either. there was a torrent of tweets about this over the weekend and the president seemed to be egged bye-b on by viewers who spotted empty seats during the tour. he seems to be fixated on this, that he broke the record by elton john who played there in 2004. the daily mail.com says that according to arena staff elton john had an audience of 11,300 and said the crowd for president trump was just around 11,500. president trump may have bested a world famous musician in a mid size arena in manchester, new hampshire but, surprise, this is a distraction and i'm going to have tim o'brian hold my beer as i continue, other politicians have stood on that very same stage and this is going to drive the president crazy.

at least one of them seems to have drawn a bigger crowd than president trump. >> these last months of our campaign have seen the gathering of strength of a real movement across this country. it's evident in the size of these crowds like this tonight. my goodness. >> that's mitt romney in the very same arena in 2012 acknowledging what politico called a rambunctious crowd of -- wait for it -- 12,100. that is over capacity and 600 over the deputy fire marshal's estimate of president trump's rally last week. because the president has pointed out several times now there were supporters outside the arena, tremendous overflow as he called it, i got to point out the same thing was true at romney's event in 2012. >> and i understand that there are a few thousand people outdoors who couldn't get in too. hi to them also. >> donald trump's presidency, the grievances are the same.

forget his global mplatform, its the small things that matter most like the size of the crowd. we'll be right back. great riches will find you righ. when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar? thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management. to help you grow and protect your wealth. when crabe stronger...strong, with new nicorette coated ice mint. layered with flavor... it's the first and only coated nicotine lozenge.

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facing an affordable housing crisis and cash strapped voters and local politicians are looking to the 2020 democrats for a plan. so far though only a handful of candidates including julian castro, elizabeth warren, kamala harris and cory booker have come up with a plan, whether through tax credits, grant programs or rent delay. it's not the only problem the 2020 candidates have to tackle. secretary ben carson's housing and urban development department is proposing a rule that could make it fair housing act more difficult. it's a move that could lead thousands of people homeless and cost more for the department who already had its budget gutted. that supposed to take effect this week. i want to talk about what the candidates are proposing but there are members of this cabinet who are not focused upon as much as others. help us understand what this says about the direction of the

hud department under ben carson. >> i can only shake my head. every time i see the fact that dr. ben carson is head of hud -- i made pasta last night, that doesn't make me an expert on italian history. the fact that trump has to see like when the poor have nothing, they eat the rich. right? and donald trump and ben carson will not be saved by this. that's the financial piece, but the moral piece, we've had supreme court case after supreme court case trying to help us

work through our centuries of racism. our centuries of discriminations in our housing policieses and it seems as though this administration wants to really roll back so much of the work that's been done in the courts to try and make it safer for people to have a home and to live so that their kids can get go to school, have jobs in mar areas and all the things from there. >> jason called that invisible wall. from your vantage, what does that construction look like in washington, d.c.? this is another example of o it. using the regulatory apparatus to affect a wholesale change in washington. >> this is another area where the administration has tried to change policy and the ways that it can through executive power without having all the reigns of legislative power to be able to change the law. so you have another case where we talked about steven miller passing 1,000 page regular lati.

it's a very treacherous and complicated one for the democratic presidential contenders. i used to live in the bay area which has an acute. >> howard: housing crisis problem. people who ride city buses because they can't find a place to live. they have a job, but can't live within a couple hours commute of where their jobs are and you have a real debate out there. there's this talk of a movement, people know about not many my backyard. this is like yes in my backyard and all kinds of weird cross cutting cleavages here. you have folks who are very wealthy who think the policy should stay about the way it is in term of discouraging the new housing units. you have environmentalists, urban dwellers, who have lived there for some time who also don't want to see redevelopment of those areas and it's become a real flash point because some of the wealthy donors that might

support these candidates may well be on the nimbi side of these debates. >> let me ask you what to make of more broadly. you look at what the candidates are supposing. this is wonky. affecting americans across the country. but what's it say to you about the shape of f this campaign? that's there's been a focus, maybe it hasn't come up on the debate stage yet, but they are developing deep plans on. >> i think it's another indicator of how important the millennial vote is going to be going forward. it's not just public housing that's broken. the private housing market doesn't create homes now that are within the reach of middle kla class homeowners. a lot of the new jobs are concentrated in urban areas where it's unaffordable for young even renters to buy into. much less homeowners. i think it resognates with young americans who came out of the

2008 financial crisis and they're wondering what their future looks like and it's bleak and if you look at home ownership. i think the candidates are recognizing this. i think elizabeth warren in particular wildfihas identified along with tuition and education. i think you're going to see this gain more traction as the elections go on. >> how u reversible is all this? you look at this five pronged approach that's been posed, for those worried about them, go to you first then to josh. what is the complication of using the regulatory state in this way? how difficult would bit to roll something like that back? >> i don't know and i'll defer to josh on that. i think we're at a flash point because what we're doing is not sustainable. and i agree with you wholeheartedly. it isn't just b about public housing and purchasing. it is about sort of people who are in that gray area in between in the markets that don't have a

leg to stand on and unfortunately, that gray area is getting larger and larger across generations. >> about 30 seconds, but i remember my days covering dodd frank. rolling it back. had to get through it. just quickly, the challenge of that. >> you can change them. it takes a couple years to do it if you go through the proper process. there can also be as with everything this administration has done, litigation over it, which can delay it further. but when you're talk iing about housing, you're talking about things with a long lead team to build a new housing project to locate the commercial development, to locate the land, to do the actual construction takes a couple of years. so if you change the policy now, you're talking about something that has a ripple effect that goes on for years even if somebody tries to reverse it. >> great to have you here. appreciate it very much. coming up, the dangerous territory donald trump finds himself in ahead of his re-election fight. plus the downward trend joe

biden's now fighting against. the embargo lifts soon on our new nbc news "wall street journal" poll. just a few minutes away. treet journal" poll. just a few minutes away.

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we have seen some interesting polling in e recent days. president trump lashing out at the media in the last hour on twitter. think what my poll numbers would be if we had an honest media, he

just tweeted. fox news poll, several democrats pulled ahead of president trump. senator warren is surging and this morning, we have new data from nbc news antd "the wall street journal" on the president on policy. and on the campaign. the embargo has just been lifted. i'm going to dig into it with derek hague. he is off the campaign trail for at least one day. danielle is is with us as well. the host of woke af on sere yus is serius xm. each of you has an envelope in fron of you. we're going to talk about the election. gun policy. president's approval rating. i'll start with you as my colleague and practiced tv person. open it up. >> 2020 democrats poll biden and sanders popularity declines among registered voters. r for biden, the drop is

dramatic from 54% in january to 34% now. sa sanders support drops from 44% last year to 37%. >> well read. as if you had not seen it before. i mentioned the fox news poll. something that comes across as you look at sanders' popularity, warren's popularity, the incremental way she has risen through the polls. dove tail that. >> i think you're seeing here two people who the american people were very familiar with. joe biden, but not wearing as well on the campaign trail. joe biden came into this race as this you know u, haloed figure as obama's v.p. every day he's on the trail, that's probably going to get worse. it's just hard to stay popular in this environment. that said, what's strike iing at this, not one red cent has been spent by anybody on a negative advertisement. if either one makes it to the general election, it will. i think the warning sign for

democrats is the way donald trump gets re-elected, his numbers don't go up. they stay standard. if he can drag somebody down to his level and win a double no, some folks said they don't think hillary clinton is worth getting out of bed for, that's a a problem. the opportunity for warren, for a lesser known candidate to rise up is also real. i think people are still when i went on the trail, there's a tendency to go towards biden as the safest available choice. it is his until someone takes it from him. every day, that apple gets closer to reach. >> vice president finds his popularity. 54% down to 22% negative in january 2018 to 34% positive. 38% negative. danielle, let me ask you about this issue of name recognition. that was the argument all alone. joe biden's name is known. bernie sanders. senator warren has been on the trail now for months. is what we're seeing now just

that? we're just e seeing the erosion of that name recognition. the wider recognition of these other candidates. >> i have been talking about wash warren since she announced her campaign. she's the only candidate had a steady rise. had no slips in the polls since she announced. her policies are resognating. her personality. she is somebody that i have said from beginning is someone to watch. we'll see her throughout this campaign and we'll see her numbers rise. she doesn't get as much media attention as biden does. as bernie does. that's one of the reasons, but she's going into the reddest of red places, having town halls, meeting with people and they're falling in love with her and she has a plan for everything. so that makes people incredibly happy. >> will you open your envoel open? >> i'm so excite eexcited. sadly, there is no check here. >> this is on gun policy. >> yes, it is, so okay, 89% back expanded background checks. 76% of people back red flag laws

and 62% back banning certain semiautomatic weapons. >> a majority in all of those cases. you look at those numbers, what's that say to you about the conversation nationally then you can't look at that without looking at what's happening or not on capitol hill. yes, everybody's on recess, but that national conversation in compliment with the conversation among legislatorlegislators. to me, they resognate and say, mitch mcconnell, do your job. maybe not pretend to be the grim reaper. maybe put forth a sensible gun legislation. i don't know how many more mass shootings he wants us to go through, but those numbers clearly say the american people are ready for action and we want mitch mcconnell to do something other than say no. >> mike, if this were a policy debate, i'd have my folders full of pass polls. if you laook at recent years, polling after shootings, maybe it wasn't 89%, but what's crazy about this is how high those numbers are and how little has been done and to what do you

attribute that. >> i think the asill i can'yent the issue has changed. the nra is a powerful lobby, but it's also a symbol of how u the dynamic of the issue works which is that the people who want to preserve guns and see their gun rights as being abridged, as you say, ban ar 15s, which i don't agree with very strongly. those kind of people feel so strongly about it. where as the people who will answer a poll and say, yeah, let's do background checks don't feel strongly about it at all. but now, that other, that 89 pesce, that 62%, there, it's not just they have the pref rerngs but if they were to rank where gun control is as an issue, it's going up and upened up, meaning the political consequences of not acting with the majority of the american people will be more real now than it has been in the past. >> you have a poll, you're asking targeted questions.

red flag laws. a sense of what that means now. it's hard to get past that two-word phrase, gun control. when you're on the campaign trail, how much nuance is there h these conversations? as much as you're talking to folks as you see in a poll like this? >> i think you're starting to see more. i think the american people are getting more educated on this unfortunately by the violence they're seeing. used to be they were strong on issues. second amendment voters were strong voting block. people voted on that issue. there was not the flip side of that coin. there were not people who voted because they felt strongly about gun rights. you started the see that after sandy hook, more and more know. it's a grotesque reality. there are two types of communities in this country. those where you have had extreme cases of gun violence and those where you will. as these things are being visited on more and more community, people are starting to pay much closer attention to it.

could a background check have stopp eped shooting x? maybe not. but could the law? that would have been unspeakable in 2012 for a democratic candidate to say i am literally going to come take your guns. i'll give you a check, but i'm going to come take your guns. the discourse has changed on this dramatically. >> we've talked about the democratic candidates, guns. mike, you've got an envelope. this is about the president and his approval rating. >> let's seat s set this up with some drama. donald trump, a man who's never been more popular than unpopular, will he turn that around this time? will we say this is mr. trump's 100th nomination. president trump job approval rating remains unchanged. 43% approve. 55% disprove. negative 12. unpopular. >> what do you make of that? >> i make this is the most consistent president that we could possibly imagine. i also make that what garrett

was talking about, about our electorate is so polarized, so locked in. where a democrat hasn't been sullied by targeted ads. donald trump wants to run a devil you know campaign. obviously he does and america is situated to only listen to a devil you know campaign because no matter who has the r next to their name will get 45% of f the vote. whoever has the d will have the hatred of the people who will be b voting r then this narrow slice of o the electorate who will vote and it's all baked into donald trump's we call it approval, disapproval numbers. >> you've got that constant danielle. in the fox news poll, there were these head to head compares. how much does that matter? the president tweeted about what he sees as fake or misleading polling. what does it tell you when you see warren havversus trump, tak

into consideration this arooufl rating? >> i've been sullived by polls. just like everybody else. >> we all have today. >> who was burned in 2016. they don't mean a lot to me because every time say, i'm like polls, hillary clinton should be my president based on all of the polls the night of the election. so yeah, do i think it's important that donald trump is unpopular, yes, but i don't need a poll to tell me that. the empty seats in his arenas tell me that. i also think when we look at the lineup, this conversation around electability and whether or not somebody is is going to be able to stand up to trump, if they happen to be b a woman, a person of color, we knock eed that dow because he loses down the line with the top five. by at least seven to 12 points. that's important for him to e see. and makes me so excited when it's fox news when it's the one reporting. >> the lovely scene didn't give me an envelope. this is about trade.

the coming up on the campaign trail. the trade war that continues. nearly two thi-thirds of americ say they support free trade with foreign countries. is this another example of there being nuance in the poll and not enough on the campaign trail? >> you see this most commonly in iowa. our colleague does amazing work about the farmers and agricultural businesses in iowa who have lost markets off the table. in this trade war, our farmers are are agricultural producers are losing places to sell what they make. this is not something we spend a lot of time thinking about around manhattan, but it's a big deal in a lot of places in this country. yeah i think free trade is a conceptual thing some people get and some don't. when you're talking about the trans pacific partnership, which was was supposed to be a crown jewel of obama policy then fell apart at the end. it gets thornier, but when you break it down, it's the macro level for folks who you know this is their day-to-day life and how hey you know make ends meet. it is starting to resognate. >> we're going to leave it

there. thank you for playing. up ahead, we're going to dive into a special issue of "the new york times" magazine. nicole hannah jones is going to join us to talk about the project. but up next, beto hitting the reset button again as he foregoes the early voting states. garrett watched that firsthand. more on that next. d that firhasd more on that next. got me all crumpled up. that's ok! hey, guys! hi mrs. patterson... wrinkles send the wrong message. sorry. help prevent them before they start with new downy wrinkleguard. that's better. so you won't get caught with wrinkles again. hi, do you have a travel card? we do! the discover it® miles card. earn unlimited 1.5 miles on every purchase, plus we'll match your miles

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if somebody came in my

workplace and had not done [ bleep ] for years, i'm not a l criminal, not threatening anybody and they come in with gun drawns, i might get spooked and try to run as well. i don't think that is an inhuman or unreasonable response. >> welcome back to up. that was democratic presidential candidate beto o'rourke in little rourke, arkansas this weekend. the former congressman is sharpening his focus and hitting the reset button on his campaign yet again after a rough patch in the polls, the shooting in his home state sharpened his attacks on president trump and the need for gun policy reform. he's taking stronger positions gent the trump administration's gun policy, talking about domestic terrorism as well. garrett is with us. beto o'rourke today is in tulsa. tomorrow, in oklahoma city. we don't often talk about delegate counts in oklahoma. these aren't places you see many democrat candidates going. what's he doing there? what motivates this reset? what's going to make it

successful? >> and he was in arkansas and mississippi. >> at a gun show. >> that's right. it's always been part of his appeal, his stick he does. he went to places that hadn't seen a senate candidate. shameless plug. >> thank you very much. >> so this is part of that same ethos. now he's trying to highlight the effects of the trump administration's policies and he's trying to highlight episodes of white nationalism. he's going talk about the oklahoma city bombings there, which of course were a wake up call about what white national i m really is in this country when they first happened. this reset and they hate that word, but it's not wrong, of his campaign and changed messages. it boils down to this. he views it this way. you cannot run a normal presidential campaign in severely abnormal times.

he sees a direct link to 22 dead people in el paso to the words that came out of president trump's mouth and you can't go to the iowa state fair and eat pork chops when the words that come out of president's mouth is is killing your constituents. he's turned into into a town crier. that he's going to go to these places and try to shake people awake. >> and i'm going to steal a question another reporter asked me. how effective this moral outrage is going to be. not being cynical, assuming it's genuine, how does it translate? >> it connects with me. i'm outraged. every single time we have a mass shooting. every time we're doing wak to school sales and what's number one is the bulletproof backpack. so the idea that instead of doing something about gun reform that we're sending kids to school with bulletproof backpacks or teaching them red fire drills, you should be o outraged. i connect with that and think it's real. when he was about by a reporter

what do you think about the president's rhetoric and he said an expolicetive, i feel that way, too. stop asking questions you know the answer to. yes, the president is a racist. yes, he is enciting violence and riling up these people and we should be having a conversation about that and not just riding ferris wheels and eating corn and talk iing about bs that doesn't matter. people are getting ready to send their kids back to school and they are terrified. that's, that is not the american way. and that has become the norm here. >> he's going to go to oklahoma. get national media coverage going to oklahoma. that's something i think a lot of other candidates wouldn't get. he's able to shine a lot on, bring attention to these places. i mean i haven't talked about the oklahoma city bombing in many years. this is a pivotal moment in modern american history that doesn't get the attention it deserves. he deserves applause for that. >> sure, of course, but i would ask you, it resognates with you, is he in your top five?

here's the thing with beto and what r you were saying before about him taking advantage of the moment and him getting attention. beto seems to be a good candidate if you're already paying attention to him. and thus far, he has not been able to do the things to stand out where he's saying oh, now i understand the reason for his candidacy. he's using this moment that was generated outside his own campaign to take advantage of and i don't mean that in an insulting or crass way and it's good politics, but what is the momentum that beto himself is generating like elizabeth warren is? like sanders is, like even joe biden is? i think also saying he's been very terrible. bad in those debates because he does like this process of talking in big anecdotes and if you're already paying attention, you could buy in. but when it's a quick hit, here's what i stand for, i don't want to say bumper sticker, but here, i am distilling my message to the people, to me, still not connecting. >> here's a thing we should all try to understand about the

democratic primary. unless and until joe biden's support collapses, almost all this is ak dcademic. warren is probably running the single best campaign. but still getting tripled by joe biden. >> but you saw the poll, it is collapsing. >> so joe biden has run president twice before and both times when he fell apart, it was on his own. so we've learneded going after him doesn't work well and if history is the guide, he might fall apart. so if you're beto and you can be like biden, be a younger, more d dye namic version of that same guy and hold on tight and wait long enough to see if biden does collapse, you're pretty well positioned. >> but he's in single digits now so i don't know how long he's going to be able to hang on. i agree with the chronicle that said beto come back home, we need you to run for senate. there are some who need to look at the field and say what is my actual value in this moment and is it to run for president.

>> his reaction to that is what with apologies to thomas wolf tharks qulou you can't go home again. >> no way, it's not going to happen. he's tried to say it every way possible. he's not going to run r for senate. a, there's six candidates in that race. he's basically endorsed the combat veteran who ran a house race last time. hasn't jump ed in and done that yet. i think sort of on a purely human level, he got super fired up running into ted cruz. he like all democrats really hate d and john cornyn is someoe he worked with in congress. so to come that close and lose against someone you hated, just to get emotionally fired up to do that again is probably not, is a tough sell. >> let's end it here on that note. you look at john hickenlooper, he goes back to colorado. he said he's given thought to running against corey gardner. that's a crowded field. yes, he stands a shot, but things have proceeded a pace while hickenlooper has been in the wilderness. >> and the most important thing is is beto's emotions and for him to feel good and his

personal vision quest. i agree. the politics are right. i think biden will collapse. there will be a centrist lean. beto, buttigieg, klobuchar, all these except for buttigieg's polling in the low single dig digits, they are in line to inherent the mantle. i don't know if this is the moment for that. and it's not just senn triz m. polls say it's where the majority of americans are so it's smart to have someone in that lane. i just see a lot of flaws in how beto goes about doing his job and it's emp exemplified by not b wanting to be in the texas race. >> we're going to come back in a moment. reports of its death have been exaggerated until now perhaps. how thes to end the dreaded filibuster just got louder after a lawmaker just added his name to the cost. a lawmaker just adde to the cost.

it's going the filibuster road. it's disaster for the republicans. they have to get rid of it. if they don't get rid of it, it's just a death sentence. >> this is up. time and time again, we've heard from both democrats and republicans calls for the senate

to go nuclear and change rules to end the filibuster. usually it requires 60 votes to cut off debate, hold a final vote, but with the current gridlock in washington, there's new interest in abolishing that requirement for a supermajority to approve major legislature. harry reid penned an op-ed in "the new york times" calling for an end to the filibuster writing something must change. and he kauld called on the 2020 democratic candidates to do the same. so far, only warren and insly called for it. panel back with me. garrett when you're not on the trail, you're covering congress. as i said there at the top, you hear a call for this time and time again. doesn't matter who's in power. what's the argument for keeping it in place? >> that the senate is designed to be the cooling saucer of -- >> that quaint old notion. >> and it is intentionally designed to slow things down. the senate is a process is supposed to slow things down and the fill bibuster is the greate

tool by which to do this. it also encourages bipartisan decision making and so the argument to get rid of it, if you didn't have the filibuster, you would have had an obama care that didn't have a public option and wouldn't have had obama care anymore because the republicans who you have been able to get rid of it. so the argument to keep it is that the parties will always switch back and forth and by keeping it there, you're more likely to create accomplishment and will last beyond the next change of whose name is is leader's office. >> they're talking about it on the campaign trail. that's a strapg thing. do you think it's going to happen? do you think it should stay in place? a lot of f this has to do with who wins this election. >> i mean i personally think the filibuster should go. the senate has become a graveyard and we have never seen the kind of obstruction that's happening now that's been going on through the obama years and up until now. the senate has done absolutely nothing. we've had the house pass over

150 pieces of legislation to just go to the senate and die. because mitch mcconnell won't bring anything to the floor. i think that we need a change. we need a shift and that's what harry reid was saying in his op-ed. he's like the senate has to evolve. it used to be a place of debate and cleenlgal conversation to explain to the american people why one side of the issue is is better than the other. we don't do that anymore. we need a change. >> would you trade all those house pass bills for all the times the house under republican control passed bills and send them to the senate where they died because senate leaders knew democrats could filibuster them. >> what i want is a congress that works and what i want are for them to be able to give us both sides of the argument. to be b able to deliver to the american people this is why republicans are against gun control even though we're selling backpacks to your kids that are bulletproof. i want them to express that and dwoent have that debate anymore and i think that's a problem. >> the gentle lady yields.

>> my good friend. the senate doing nothing has nothing to do with the filibuster. in the current construction that mitch mcconnell has ironclad control over the caucus and has majority. the filibuster has nothing to do with the senate being a cooling saucer. that's a madisonian precept. the drink. but you know who was not until 1917 that the woodrow wilson that the filibuster existed. far from a constitutional tool. and i also don't think it's the nuclear option. i reject that branding. to me, it's like you have a tear down in the house and you build it up again in the way that every parliament on earth is built. i believe in the political science. juan lynn said the more people who have the brakes to power, the less progress you get, but also let's remember that without the fill bibuster, there would a, the wall would be in place.

>> that's true u. so what giveth it taketh away. >> garrett, last question to you. that is as you talk to lawmaker, how many acknowledge the fact that this is a graveyard? that the constitution itself is broken and i can make fun of these candidates for presidents who said they're not interested in running for the presidency, but kind of sucks. i understand those who say this isn't going to be a great job. >> why do you think there are seven senators and a whole bunch of presidential candidates who don't want to run for senate. just feel like you cannot get anything done in that body. elizabeth warren could become warren and wants to get rid of it, not her choice. >> she loses power in terms of becoming president. >> exactly right. >> only the senate can end a filibuster. >> sign a letter saying they want to keep it. more than 50 are in the senate. >> we're going to vote to end debate. >> all right. in many ways, the legacy of slavery continues to finalize here in america.

we're going to look back as we mark 400 years. nicole hannah jones joins us next. nicole hannah jones joins us next and they'll say, "grandpa just tell us about humpty dumpty". and you'll say, "he broke his pelvis or whatever, now back to my creamy heinz mayonnaise". heinz mayonnaise, unforgettably creamy.

if you're on twitter this morning, you may have seen the hash tag 1619 project brunch. "the new york times" magazine is rolling out a special issue commemorating the 400 year

anniversary of the africans entering the united states. it's a cultural history of how the legacy of slavery continues to shape and define life in america. there are stories and essays from journalists and poets and mu u siem cure raters. it's an examination of the united states' origin story. it is designed to kick start conversations, thus that hash tag b and i'm pleased we're going to have our own with the creator of this project, nicole hannah-jones whose essay was at the front of this issue. thank you very much for being here. and it is an as ttonishing thin to behold to get the physical copy help us understand this. how long you've been think iing about this. how long you've u been thinking about changing our notions of the start of this country. moving it from 1776 to 1619. >> so i first came across the year, the date, 1619 as a high school student and i came across it in a book called before t

the mayflower. i remember being astounded because i never thought they had been here before the pilgrims landed. i've been obsessed with that period for a long time and as the anniversary was approaching, i really thought this was an opportunity the finally examine in an institution like the times, the legacy of f what it means to be b a country that was founded in slavery and where it is the 400thth anniversary of this. >> walk us through what it was like to evan jellize. our colleague, wesley mormorris talk about that. you bringing up this date and getting folks to think about it in the way you have. >> it was amaze. people when i first pitched it at "the new york times," there was no pushback whatsoever. people immediately, jake sill

ser steen, my editor saw this was something important that we should do that how often do you get a chance to commemorate 400 years of anything, but especially institution that's been so central to america, but we have refused to really grapple with. so when i started talk ining to other writers and poets and asking them people were just so excited to participate. to be able to weigh in in a historic way in the paper of record on this institution and its legacy. i didn't have a problem convincing people. >> i'm going to ask you then bring everybody else back in. you write about the fact that flew outside your house and your dad's regard for that. what he recognized in that flag that you were unable to recognize. talk about that. how through thinking about this project, you have come to an understanding of what the symbols meant to your dad.

>> absolutely. as a child plrly during by tanl yeteenage years, an ambivalent feeling about being an american. i grew up with the sense this wasn't really our country to chaim. and that we had never been treat ed as full citizens. so my dad flying this flag in our yard, our house was kind of perpetually in disrepair, but that flag was also pristine and as soon as it got any tatter, my dad would take it down. ifls really embarrassed that he would so outwardly show patriotism for a country that i felt didn't treat black people as citizens. i just came to understand that our history in this country, black people's role in truly believing in our founding ideals and being willing to die again and again to make those true for all americans. there's no greater patriotism. and it's actually disrespectful to our ancestors not to claim this country and that flag and to be able to claim our legacy here on these lands. >> it says beautifully in print,

online as well. mike, i see you've been looking at it. >> i would say our house has been perpetually in disrepair, too. i got this last night and was highlighting it. you wrote this. the shameful paradox of continuing channel slavery in a nation founded on individual freedom scholars today assert led to a hardening of the rational cast system. the paradox, not just the fact of the peculiar institution, not just the fact that black americans were stamped from the beginning as a problem, but the paradox of the ideals and the reality drove us crazy. is this your point? >> yes, it had the krocorrosive effect because we knew that our at our founding, was hypocrisy. i hear lot of nations practice slavery, but they weren't founded on the ideal of individual rights and would be the most lib torre democracy

we've ever seen. so having to deal with those two thing, that you're holding people in bondage was corrosive to our development and that's really what the magazine tries to grapple with is that you can look across modern society tell and still see the effects of that need the hide that sin. we want to hide that sin because we're ashamed of it. >> so much resonance today to what's happened over the years. no one cherishes freedom more than those who have not had it and to this day, black americans more than any other group embrace the democratic ideals. situating this in the election. situating the conversation we were having earlier about housing policy, that is particularly resonant. >> the piece was so, the it's so incredible and the project is absolutely astounding because like you, i didn't learn any of this. i never learned any of this in school. anything that i was taught about

african-americans, about slavery was always just like a bookmark, right? it was never a story to be told and it is one that we consistently hide from and not only do we hide from it, we pretend it does not economist. when mitch mcconnell was asked about reparation, we gave you a black president so you should be okay with that, right? it's this idea that we should just be satisfied that we're able to walk around as fully fledged human beings even though we're not allowed to be those people. we're not allowed to embody freedom, liberty and to question this government. we are people that have persistently been oppressed and depressed by the american democratic system and yet, we're never allowed to question it. and any time we do, you have the trumps of f the world that tell us we're not patriotic. that we have no reason kneel. to shout u, when if anyone has a reason to shout, it is black people. right? because we go from you know, we

go from slavery. we move into jim crow. we have this moment of reconstruction which i can look at as the obama years, was that little moment of reconstructionism then you have the oppression that follows suit. you have the white anger and the white rage that follows suit u. how dare these black people you know see themselves as fully functioning people that are allowed to claim power. to me, it is, it is so, this is the history that we should have been taught from the beginning. this project is what we should have been founded on and when slavery was taken away. we should have looked to this history. if we had reconciled with it. >> the last question here, this is a living history. it exists in print. you're doing the kind of stuff to get this out to teachers, get this to classrooms across the country. this could have existed in another form. why was that so important to

you? >> this effort is really trying to refrain the way e we think about slavery. it can't just be a history that lives that a historian might read. it has to be a living history that gets out to the masses which is why we've partnered with the center to design an entire curriculum that's free for teachers to download. which is why we got sponsorship to print more than 200,000 copies we're giving out for free to ensure it's not just paid subscribers. it mean as lots lot that the institution of "the new york times," 150 years from now when historians want to see what was happening at this time, this is

where they will go and to do this type of effort in this magazine and newspaper b i think can be transformtive. >> thank you so much for being here. nicole hannah-jones in new york. coming up, two huge stories. lifting the curtain on steven miller's roles. one in the times, one in "washington post." what are we learning? more on that, next. that, next, so you only pay for what you need. nice! but uh, what's up with your partner? oh! we just spend all day telling everyone how we customize car insurance because no two people are alike, so... limu gets a little confused when he sees another bird that looks exactly like him. ya... he'll figure it out. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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if you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25% off that stay. steven miller's the product of a larger movement that's been operating for several decades and has been abet ted by some large changes in political context ranging from 9/11 to sourcing, which has reduced the support among business interests for immigration in the united states to demographics, the rise of immigration across the south. heart of the gop. so miller's the often the face of the movement, but it's a much broader phenomenon. >> that's jason, a senior writer from "the new york times." he's written one of two big pieces. the chief architect of president trump's immigration crackdown. looks like that profile jason

wrote may have prompted president trump to have a twitter tirade this morning. the president tweeting after our decision, journalism has reached a new low in the history of our new country. i hope selfishly the president was listening to nicole as

that does it for me today. thanks very much for watching. "am joy" starts right now. go look at president trump's twitter. he talked about cities watching antifa, that's what we wanted. we wanted national attention and we got it.

>> hello, everyone. and welcome to "am joy." donald trump is up early this morning, not a surprise there. he is tweeting about how upset he is with the media for the way his administration has been covered. we'll have more on that later in the show. but first to this scene in portland, oregon. far right nationalists were met by demonstrations. there were 13 arrests, 6 minor injuries and the portland mayor calling the demonstration fairly peaceful. they say the purms of tpose of rally to get anti-fascist which some have labeled antifa declared a terror organization and the organizer of the rally is claiming victory saying they got what they wanted before the demonstrations even started when trump, president of the united states tweeted this out. inuprt