president's false claim that alabama was in the path of hurricane dorian? it's a total mystery. >> so i called up the folks at sharpie and i said, do me a favor, can you make the pen in black, make it look rich? he said not only can we do that, we can put your signature on it. that's your signature right there. wow. good morning and well tomorrow to "morning joe" this thursday, september 5th. with us we have msnbc contributor -- >> the temptations really. >> oh, my. >> let's listen to the song for a second. ♪ just my imagination running away with me ♪ >> barnicle is here and state department's elise jordan is with us, eddie clawed jr. and republican communication strategist and msnbc political contributor rick tyler. >> so you worked with presidents, you worked with

administrations, connedy rice, they wouldn't just get sharpees and make up stuff. >> for their own personal need to cover up a stupid tweet. >> we're just curious. >> for a friend wanted to know. >> absolutely not. and the closest example i can think of is a kid in third or fourth grade trying to doctor their report card. >> the first thing i thought of was trying to turn a 62 into an 82 for my brother on my report card. >> it's stupid and absurd. >> a devastating hurricane. >> and hilarious but also i think probably illegal. >> eddie, i'm just curious, eddie. i mean, at this point i'm just laughing at the stupidity. i know i should be shocked and be pulling my hair out like everybody on twitter is and saying this is the end of -- it's just stupid. it's just stupidity and it is transparent stupidity and i just -- when i see these tweets

i just break out laughing going -- it's just madness. >> yeah, you know, that's the word. we just need to keep saying it, keep using it, it's stupid. i mean, i just -- we say all the time that he's not curious, that the gut language is what the gut language is. >> right. >> but at the end of the day he's not the sharpest knife in the knife box. >> he's not even a butter knife. >> he's not even like -- >> that's really odd. >> a plastic spoon. >> cake froster thing. >> a lot of internet memes came out of this which is, of course, what the kids and i are most interested in. there is his sharper, using his sharpie on his abc. >> there is his crowd size. >> to the right there is the crowd size and down below the crowd size as well and of course the imaginary fence has been built, rick tyler, at last, the imaginary fence. i just sit and ask as you look at that imaginary fence and

listen to trump supporters believe donald trump's lies, i guess the only thing that's important about this is just pointing out, again, the lies are nonstop. so when they lie about important things, when he lies about important things, we could get the stuart varney clip. he has never lied before. it just shows how absurd all of his defenders are on this particular issue. >> well, i can't believe that dr. eddie glaude would suggest that donald trump is not the sharpest sharpie in the drawer. it is funny, i mean, i laughed as you did when i saw the map and how absurd it is, but it does have a serious underlying problem and that is it speaks to donald trump's character. and you can look at everything he does. so when we look at a constitutional republican inside a democracy, in order for things to get done in the house and senate you have to have honest

brokers. that is, people have to deliver on what they say they're going to deliver. part of the reason we don't have any gun reforms like background checks, universal background checks, is because mitch mcconnell does not believe that donald trump will do what he says he's going to do. if you look at the markets, you know, if you look at china, we don't have a trade deal with china, by the way, which could have all been solved we just stayed with tpp because then we would have the whole region working against china or competing with china in our favor, instead of doing that, that must have been a barack obama deal so that can't be any good, instead we're going to tax the american people to try to win some stupid trade war. it's the negotiation of not negotiating with an honest broker, with somebody who is honest because constitutional republics and free markets and contract law they all require that you're dealing with somebody who has got a grasp of the truth and will tell the truth and he doesn't.

>> joe, your first reaction to this was laughter because i think it's moments like this that make you realize maybe we will be okay. >> it's too obvious. as my grandmother always said, joey, this, too, shall pass. >> is there literally no one who can say, mr. president, this is going to make you look like a massive fool. you can't do this. like nobody thinks this is a good idea. wow. there's no one -- >> it's interesting you bring up that question right after i say this, too, shall pass. donald trump shall pass as far as his political power in washington, d.c. and it's going to happen sooner rather than later ng with the election, but the residue of going along with these lies, the residue going along with the racism i think just obvious racism, other people may think latent racism, of going against basic

republican beliefs of balanced budgets, free trade, supporting nato, all of these things. that will stay with the republican party. you know, one of the -- and it also, though -- this does -- this is really a spotlight on the most serious deficiency he has and that is the truth and the fact that he was a spoiled young boy whose father gave him $400 million in current dollars, he was able to live in his own universe and world. so i think one of the most telling moments we had james mattis on yesterday, james mattis, rex tillerson, his foreign policy apparatus, they gave him the talk. mr. president -- james mattis didn't say this, but it was basically you are not getting this. let me explain the history since 1945 and explain to you why nato exists. explain to you why the world in which we live is the way it is

on the international stage and how america became the supreme power over all other nations and that's when trump got angry and said i don't believe that. that's not my view of it. and it was history. that's when rex tillerson said this guy is a moron. well, that's a very clear indication of how this alternate reality that kellyanne conway talked about, this alternate reality actually does impact us. so, yes, i can laugh at the stupidity of the sharpie, the obviousness of i won't say third grader, the four-year-old, lying with a sharpie, but it does spotlight a much bigger problem. >> you're right, i mean, the initial reaction is to laugh out loud. it's laugh out loud funny it's so absurd, but the other aspect of it borders on being truly dangerous and it is that we have a commander in chief, president of the united states, who

considers that he can never be wrong. >> right. >> about anything. about something so inconsequential as the path of a hurricane to alabama instead of the natural path that every weather service was telling him. he can never be wrong so he has to alter reality. that gets into the other really larger and maybe lingering damage. is there any more truth? what is truth now in this administration? >> it's a huge conversation. >> what is it? what a terrible, terrible life to lead. you can never admit that you're wrong. >> yeah. >> i do it about 12 times a day and it is liberating. especially outwardly good for the soul. >> yes. >> eight minutes in i'm sure i've screwed up terribly already this morning. >> and the magic words that i say many, many times a day, i don't know. >> we're going to get to more of the absurdity of the sharpie story in just a moment, but first let's get the latest on hurricane dorian. the death toll from the storm in

the bahamas now stands at 20 and that number is expected to increase significantly. several relief organizations say they have touched down there and have started offering aid. the white house says president trump spoke to the prime minister of the bahamas yesterday and agreed to work in close coordination. dorian has regained strength once again a major hurricane, a category 3. the storm's wind and rain lashed eastern parts of georgia and south carolina overnight. this is video from charleston earlier this morning as residents along the entire carolina coastline brace for a dangerous storm surge. let's bring in meteorologist bill karins. bill, when is it going to go away? >> not soon enough. friday afternoon is when we can give everyone the all clear. if you went to bed last night and this was a category two, it's now a major hurricane again, category 3. that's serious business. it's been 25 years since north carolina was hit by a category 3

hurricane. we are about to witness another billion dollar weather disaster in our country as we go throughout the day today, tonight and tomorrow. there is the eye, 115 miles per hour. the new 5:00 a.m. advisory, the forecast path right along the south carolina coastline, does not look like we are going to get that landfall in georgetown or myrtle beach, it will be a close call wrightsville beach. right over the top of emerald city, emerald isle and right over the outer banks. savannah up to the virginia beach area including all of the carolina coastline, the timing of the worst of it today. pictures of charleston with feet of water, it floods pretty easily anyway. it's not going to be a pretty seen today. myrtle beach this afternoon, this evening winds to get up to 90 miles an hour, we will take down some trees, power outages widespread. the landfall is when we could get the 110 mile per hour winds and that would likely be 10:00 p.m. this evening to 2:00 a.m.

and then the winds begin to come down. when we wake up tomorrow morning it's still going in the outer banks, winds could gust up to 115 mile per hour along with that 8 to 14 inches of rain. as far as the impacts go, i have upped this to the major category for storm surge in south carolina through the high tide this afternoon, inland flooding is going to be a huge issue. for north carolina we're going to watch the inland flooding as a big concern, it kills the most people, it's the water that kills people. we will also have a lot of people with power outages that could last easily up to a week in areas of the carolina. >> it's going to look like the outer banks again, another direct hit. that's going to be ugly and flooding in charleston. you actually, bill, also in between all of it, you have had a busy week, but you actually had to fact check the president's map. >> the story continued of course because our president still wanted to explain why he said

alabama. so let me take you into this map. so september 1st, 8:00 a.m. in the morning is when he treated and added alabama to the states that are increasing in risk. that's when this whole thing started. when that tweet came out this was not the forecast. not alabama in it. this was the official forecast that should have been in a little document -- >> i'm not good with geography but i don't think that map even touches atlanta, georgia. >> no. okay. so that was that. so let's say he missed this. okay, so then last night after the media was piling on him he asked for all of our apologies because he said this was the forecast map that made him say alabama was in the path and these are all the kpurd models, the spaghetti, they even go into msnbc. >> that looks bad. >> then i looked closer down here and the data that was august 28th, four days before he sent the tweet. so then i said why would he send

a map out four days in advance. >> we only can see what the maps looked like the day he sent out the tweet. >> we actually do have the data. isn't that amazing? >> science. how could he ever have imagined that we would be able to fact check. >> we could fact check this. hours before the tweet these were what the lines looked like, none into alabama. 24 hours before none of the lines go into alabama. let's go 48 hours before, almost into alabama. how about 72 hours before the tweet. now we've got something, a couple go there, but that's not good enough. let's make it look better and do 96 hours on the 28th. here is your choice, we can either believe the whole kindergarten change in the number 62 to an 82 or maybe he actually did go four straight days without being briefed or looking at the updates on the hurricane and he did believe that what he saw, which one is worse? >> wow. >> well, i mean, this is --

yeah. >> let's hope we will go with the first one. >> four days behind. >> so there's fine print on the image of the map that says nhs advisories and county emergency management statement supercede this product. this graphic should complement not replace nhc discussions. there's also u.s. statute on false weather reports. is that worth noting given the fact that i think the president might have given out a false weather report, right? so apparently it's against the law. >> the easy answer is that donald trump was just lying because of his ego, but i think that bill raises a far more disturbing prospect, that the president was completely asleep at the wheel -- >> for four days. >> for four days. >> while he was golfing. >> canceled poland trip and reportedly two golf outings. >> canceled the trip and then -- which, by the way, i'm glad

anytime he canceled a trip overseas. while the strongest storm, atlantic storm to ever approach the united states of america was here, maybe for four days he was golfing instead of getting updates. >> but he said he was getting hourly updates, that's what he said, his words. some people are asking what's the big deal, it's just a map from the national hurricane center. what's the big deal. that map isn't really for us, it's not really for tv, that map is for image managers that represent all the citizens and all their counties and once that location goes into that, that sets a plan in place for, you know, preparations and eventual evacuations. not just that, how about the hurricane center people that got media requests all day yesterday asking them to comment on the president tweaking and altering their product that they've been doing for the last week nonstop trying to protect our citizens of this country with the best science possible and they're bothered by us asking will you

comment on the president do's this. they're trying to save our lives. they're working around the clock. >> thank you, bill. we appreciate it. you've been working around the clock this past week and you've been doing an incredible job. >> it's incredible. >> we are from areas that have dealt with a lot of hurricanes. last thing you want -- i mean, can you imagine the president of the united states saying watch out, toe peek karks the hurricane is coming your way. you would freak out, right? >> absolutely. >> or the people of alabama had to be worried about it, too, for a minute. >> yeah. it's one of the many problems surrounding a president that lies on a daily basis. by the way, we all certainly remember this statement. >> and who is going to pay for the wall? who? >> who is going to pay for the wall? who? >> no, the crowd is wrong.

the crowd is wrong. your people are wrong. >> it turns out that -- >> wrong. >> -- a lot of states that have a lot of republican senators in there who are running for reelection next year, those states are having their military readiness and their military bases gutted by the president of the united states. >> you're paying for the wall. >> because mexico is not paying for the wall, you are. >> puerto rico is. >> and puerto rico is. and we will tell you what senators are having money robbed from their states and their military budgets. also -- so donald trump can continue to break another promise about mexico paying for the wall. we will be right back. mexico pa the wall we will be right back. unpredictable crohn's symptoms following you?

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south carolina, the waterfront area. the winds are picking up, we're keeping our eye on the coastline there as we follow the track -- >> barnicle, are those all your boats right there? he has a fleet of boats, right? >> i do. i only have seven in charleston. >> only seven in charleston. >> they were all dry docked for the weekend. >> okay. >> mike barnicle would waste a dime on a single boat, a rowboat, doesn't know mike barnicle. >> hurricane maria left puerto rico devastated in 2017 and now the pentagon is deferring hundreds of millions of dollars meant for recovery projects on the island to pay for president trump's wall instead. according to a new list published by the department of defense, there are 127 military construction projects being delayed as the agency moves $3.6 billion to pay for the wall. puerto rico is one of the hardest hit obviously, more than $400 million meant for ten

construction projects on the island will be diverted, including money for a power substation and a national guard readiness center. so mexico isn't paying for the wall, it's puerto rico. >> but he said believe me. he said believe me. >> the diversions will also impact 23 states with new york and new mexico, both represented by democrats, taking the brunt of the blow. new york is set to lose $160 million for construction projects at the west point military academy. >> sews' stealing from west point. >> mexico is not paying for the wall, it's puerto rico and the national guard and it's also the u.s. military. >> he's stealing from west point. >> it looks like way. >> to build a wall that he promised mexico was going to pay for. to build a wall that democrats were actually willing to give him $21 billion for. >> new mexico is also going to lose $125 million, but states led by democrats aren't the only

ones feeling a hit here. there are several republican senators facing reelection next year who voted in support of trump's emergency declaration and now their states will lose money to build the wall. they include north carolina, senator thom tillis. >> wait. so the state of north carolina, their military bases, are going to be gutted? >> that's how the president pays you back for your good faith in him. >> $80 million for military construction projects and readiness projects that will not only bring jobs and keep jobs in the state of north carolina, but will make this country stronger and donald trump is gutting $80 million from thom tillis. martha mcsally in arizona couldn't stop donald trump from gutting $30 million from arizona military bases. >> but she is so loyal. oh, this is rich.

>> moscow mitch, $62 million. that's actually -- we don't know how many rubles that is, but it is a ruble equivalent of $62 million. cory gardner, state of colorado, $8 million stolen from his military projects. >> look whos next. >> lindsey graham $11 million stolen from south carolina and john cornyn $38 million stolen from the state of texas for john cornyn. >> that's your loyalty pledge. >> who is up in an election in 2020 that should be a safe race but might get another -- they're falling it texodus because texas republicans keep quitting congress rather than running for reelection. donald trump stole -- i can't believe he stole $80 million from the people in north carolina and thom tillis couldn't do anything about it. $80 million there and $38 million from texas and john cornyn. >> let's focus on thom tillis, north carolina, and the nuts and

bolts of what happens with money diverted, $80 million diverted from north carolina. he's got three big bases right in that state, ft. bragg, camp lejeune and cherry point, north carolina, which is the headquarters of the marine corps air wing. you have people coming back from four, five, six tours in afghanistan and or iraq, part of that money owe stens blee would have to be used for improvements in military housing. that's gone. i would like to be running against thom tillis in north carolina either in the republican primary or against him in the fall and please explain to me, senator tillis, why you allowed $80 million to be diverted from people who really serve our country. >> rick tyler, this is -- this is just -- >> this is what happens. >> this is not tough. if you are running against thom tillis, i mean, or in the alternative if you care about our military men and women that

serve overseas, that serve here, i mean, to steal $80 million for a wall that he said mexico was going to pay for that republicans wouldn't even fund. they had control of the house and the senate for two years and john cornyn said it wasn't worth it. lindsey graham said it wasn't worth it so he stole money from their states and they couldn't stop him. they were too weak to stop him. i will tell you what, i don't care who it was -- well, actually, newt gingrich did try to take some money from some of my military bases and it did not end well. i got all the money back and i was just a lowly congressman. so these senators -- i forgot about that. i swear to god, handed into he a piece of paper and he said -- he said here you go, congressman, now, you tell me where you want

the money to go in these five -- on your five military bases and we will put it there. that was the end of the story after he gutted my military bases. and i was a lowly freshman and these senators, thom tillis, how long have you been there? he just stole $80 million from your state. how weak are you? unbelievable. >> joe, this has a two-fold implication. this has obviously political implications with thom tillis in north carolina, which is not exactly a rock solid republican state and then you have cory gardner in colorado, not exactly a rock solid state. you know, you put those two seats, you know, at risk, but the other is just look at the simple -- it's a national security issue and that is the reasons -- the reason the republicans including cornyn didn't pay for the wall is because it's not a national security concern, but to put it

in perspective, if you took george w. bush and barack obama in their combined terms they built 684 miles of wall. barack obama actually completed 130 miles of wall in his first year of his first term. >> right. >> and donald trump is on mile zero. >> zero. >> he has nothing to show for this promise of building a wall regardless of who pays for it. >> the reason why is, elise, he couldn't get the republicans to give him a dime. he turned $21 billion down. including moscow mitch. by the way, our crack staff has figured out how many rubles were taken away from moscow mitch and he stands to lose 4 billion 90

million 4 $19,0 419,000 rubles. how do you see bluegrass blunder in russia? elise, seriously, it's not just about jobs in the state of north carolina for the state of texas or the state of colorado or these states where donald trump stole money from the military construction projects or readiness. it's about the defense of this country. >> there you go. >> and wouldn't lindsey graham just be up in arms if barack obama had tried to pull military funding for all of lindsey graham's constant war beating the drum and bravado over how looming national security threats. he certainly isn't raising a protest now. he doesn't care if donald trump does it. with north carolina i just would like to point out that trump only won north carolina by 3 points so he's probably going to

be a drag on thom tillis already in the senate race. >> i would think that -- >> and he just stole $80 million from military readiness and construction projects in north carolina. >> and $62 million in kentucky. mitch mcconnell's challenger amy mcgrath who is an incredible candidate, also a retired marine and combat pilot, this probably will be very good information for her to share with kentucky voters about exactly how much mitch has helped them out. >> you know, you guys have hit the politics right on the head. this is political suicide in some ways for the folks who are running in those states. so there's the political question but then there is the moral question, the total number of dollars taken from those states do not equal the total amount taken from puerto rico. so you have the political issue on this side and then you have the moral i wish auto. >> you how about the stupidity issue. did you think when you look that loyalty pledge and made a fool of yourself, lindsey graham, schilling for this president did

you really think he was going to pay you back? >> i think that's absolutely right, mika, but puerto rico has not bounced back. >> right. >> they are still struggling. we saw the effects and devastation of hurricane maria in puerto rico. to take $400 million from them because you don't think that they are americans, because it's consistent with the racist underpinnings of the wall in the first place. so there is the political issue and then there is the moral issue. >> there's a lot of issues. coming up, former vice president joe biden is addressing a series of public gaffs that he made on the campaign trail. he's also slamming president trump in the process. those new comments ahead on "morning joe." every day, visionaries are creating the future.

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♪ look, i think it's fair to go after a political figure for anything, okay? i mean, we stand up and that comes with the territory, but here is the deal, any gaffe that

i have made, and i've made gaffs like every politician i know has, have been not about a substantive issue, been about other -- i'm trying to talk about what other people have done. for example, they made a big deal of my saying that i pinned a medal on two people, i did, but anyway, i pinned a medal on two people and the dates, et cetera. it's a different thing to say when you're talking about honoring the bravery or the sacrifice or what other people went through and the essence of it is absolutely true, the fact that i said that i was vice president. well, in one case i was vice president elect, the other case i was a senator. >> okay. >> i'm not sure that's relevant, but i don't -- you know, i don't get wrong things like, you know, we should lock kids up in cages at the border. i mean, i don't -- >> joe biden looking to clear up some of his recent 2020 campaign

trail gaffs during an appearance on the late show with stephen colbert last night. >> he started by saying it's great to be on the jimmy kimmel show. >> but he didn't. >> he didn't. >> voter in the battle ground state of wisconsin say they favor biden over president trump in a potential 2020 general election matchup. >> i mean, wisconsin, this is important. >> according to the latest market law school poll the former vice president leads trump 51-42 in a head to head, senator sanders beats trump 48 to 44. trump ties elizabeth warren and kamala harris in their 2020 matchups. biden has an eight-point lead on his fellow 2020 contenders among wisconsin democratic voters with 28% support. sanders comes in second place with 20%, warren rounds out the top three with 17%. >> rick tyler, let's go back to the heat to heat matchup joe biden and donald trump. i will say what i've been saying for the past month, it's not so

indicative of what's going to happen, you know, 12, 13, 14 months from now, but it is indicative of how americans have reacted to the racial animus that he has stirred up on the campaign trail over the past month. this past month, this summer, where nimrods have been running around going this is good for his base. he is solidifying his base. well, but he's got the 38%. he could say he's elton john and they would believe him. great. you have that 38%. what are you going to do with the other 62%? we've seen here a massive bleeding over the summer since this racial animus, a massive bleeding over the summer of educated voters, suburban voters, women voters, nonwhite

voters, younger voters. a lot of voters. he's getting pounded in every poll in every swing state, rick. >> and what is remarkable about that all happening, joe, is the economy has stayed relatively strong. with an economy this strong you would expect the president to be somewhere in the 50% range or higher, particularly how strong this economy would be is i would expect him to be much higher than that. he's not. he has been unable -- i've said this since before donald trump was president, he is not going to be able to grow beyond his base, he is not going to be able to change. you know, biden has a problem, you know, he has got to clean this up. his campaign must be telling him this can't go on any longer. when he talks about -- i understand his motivation about talking about the valor of soldiers, but you can't talk about an event that didn't actually happen, where you didn't actually pin medals on anybody, you got the rank of the officer wrong, you got the

location wrong and you got the person pinning the medals on wrong, which was not him. that just can't keep happening. >> yeah. >> joe biden has got to start either listening to his staff or straighten up his act because we can't afford another president who can't determine fact from fiction. >> really, elise, he has to tighten up his game, his staff needs to tieden up their game. he doesn't need to wander into audiences and go full joe biden. >> he is in the lead. stay there. >> how many times have we seen donald trump walk around in crowds talking to people, doing -- he doesn't. he gets up, he gives his speech, he gets off the stage. he does interviews. joe biden is being undisciplined right now. he needs to tighten it up. if he wants to be president, if he really thinks it's important to beat donald trump, he needs to start acting like a more conventional candidate because i

know the whole, hey, let biden be biden thing doesn't work, hasn't worked in the last two campaigns, it's not going to work this this campaign. get up there, read the teleprompter, deliver your speech like trump, do what barack obama did. barack obama was very disciplined. it wasn't easy to get to barack obama. >> i have to say i did not think it was a strong rebuttal for biden to say that, oh, it was a story about valor so it's okay for the details to be a little slippery. everyone knows that war stories soldiers love together to get -- >> just say i got it wrong, move on. >> just like rick was saying, we have to have a president who can separate fact from fiction. >> it's the age of trump. >> and i do want to quibble with one this i think that rick said about the strong economy. the economy is probably as good as it's ever going to get under donald trump and i think that august was so damaging for

donald trump because the public started to understand the direct results and impact of donald trump's economy by twitter with the dow, you know, dropping 2.5% a couple of days in august and just how donald trump would roll lick the market with his casual comments about the trade war. as long as the economy is strong maybe voters who excuse the racism will be okay with it, but if you have the racism and then a recession, donald trump is -- his political prospects are done. >> i do think, mika, this is the month that it really did clarify for a lot of voters, republicans, independent, just the dust up with china, the fact that he called the chinese leader the enemy, the fact that china -- you know, he ordered american businesses out of china. we have a free market here. he is not xi. not president xi or putin.

he ordered those out. called the fed chairman an enemy of the united states. i do think that had to have a real drag on his poll numbers, too. >> so joining us now reporter for the "washington post" eugene scott and, eugene, you've been writing among other things about ted cruz, defending gun rights at a strange time. >> absolutely. we have seen in these days following the shooting in odessa senator cruz and quite a few conservative leaders make arguments for gun rights based on their deeply held religious convictions, point to go bible versions and understandings of passages that demonstrate that one of the reasons that so many social conservatives are opposed to gun control is because they believe that the bible gives them the right to self-defense and that, quite frankly, means gun ownership and some opposition to legislation that

they believe could make it more difficult for americans to have guns. i think this is an argument we're going to see grow with some frequency on the right. >> grow -- actually, it will grow with people who are ignorant of the bible is where it will grow. i'm curious what did jesus say that somebody had the right to have a military-style weapon, an ar-15. >> meant to kill as many people as possible. >> when did jesus say -- you know, i did bible drills. >> did you get that part? >> vacation bible school every summer. you know bible drills. >> i never remember jesus advocating for high volume magazines. >> exactly. >> i missed that one in bible drills. >> i also missed the part, eugene, where jesus said that blessed were those that were able to have ar-15s or blessed were domestic abusers or terrorists that could walk into a gun show and get whatever gun they wanted, or maybe do what the odessa shooter did, and that

is buy a gun from somebody else and not have a background check. >> did senator cruz clarify where he got that. >> what bible verse? what's the biblical reference that he used? >> well, in my piece there's an entire tweet thread that came from senator cruz and a state lawmaker in texas as well, a back and forth with activist and actress alyssa ma llano and reference to the book first peter where they try to explain these things. it's very important that there are other christians who can point to multiple verses about peace and loving your neighbor and responding in ways that don't seem to embrace legislation that would make it more easy, i guess, for people to keep their guns. i think it's a really interesting response as people are having -- are responding this morning to these mass shootings and looking for shootings to what is obviously a national crisis to see so many

americans say at the end of the day my bible gives me the right to have my god and my guns and that is all i'm going to do and say about that. >> by the way, i mean, i'm a second amendment supporter, i know elise, you are a second amendment supporter, i believe americans should have a right to worship their god and also own guns and protect their families. so, again, i'm just wondering how that extends to allowing domestic abusers to get guns without background checks or allow terrorists. you remember a couple years ago where you actually had a terrorist who was on the top ten wanted list, i think he was an isis terrorist, saying i love the united states because you can just go into gun shows or go other places and you can buy guns. >> privately. >> and kill a lot of americans without getting a background check. that's the best way to kill the most americans. that was an isis terrorist saying that and encouraging other terrorists.

i don't think that jesus would support that isis view. i think we should be able to protect our families, we should be a i believe to protect our schools, we should be able to protect -- wait for it, wait for it -- texas churches. we should be able to protect 17 month old babies driving in texas from the randomness and the craziness of people who can just go and actually in this case get an ar-15, a military-style weapon that, by the way, is not protected by the constitution. just not. don't get mad at me. connecticut has banned it. other states have banned it for a long time and the united states supreme court has not stepped in and said that's unconstitutional. those laws still stand. that has nothing to do with

jesus. so try again, ted cruz. >> eugene scott, thank you very much. we will be reading your reporting in the "washington post." >> i just have to say this, this -- barnicle, this is what drives me crazy. you and i we have a different view on guns, i'm a second amendment guy, but i don't think like all the nra members i know that hunt at first baptist church in pensacola or first baptist church in meridian, mississippi or tuscaloosa, alabama. these are all churches i went to, i can name a thousand baptist churches. we moved a lot. >> do you think the people in there want ar-15s? >> they want the shotguns. they want to go out hunting. there are some people that ant ar-15,. >> shotgun is the ultimate home defense. >> i was just going to say i'm not going to tell people what guns i have. i'm not going to tell people what guns i have, but trust me, nobody is getting in my house and it's not an ar-15.

>> but you know, joe, part of this is on the extra the tick party and candidates who run for national offices, democrats, instead of going to states where there's strong, strong support for the nra and strong support nra, and the nra is the top of the house. there's only self-interest -- >> you're talking about the three washington lobbyists paid by hedge funds and loot the coffers of nra members. those three? >> the rest of the nra membership, terrific people. >> they support background checks. >> democratic candidates don't go to these states and these places where there's heavy support for the nra and stand up and say hey, hey, i'm not here to take your guns. i'm not going to take your guns. they really do that. >> you know, they really, democrats need to also be more specific when they talk about the nra, and not talk about the nra. they need to talk about the three lobbyists in washington

d.c. that spend hundreds of thousands of dollars who are the extremists because the rank and file nra members, poll after poll, they want gun safety. they're responsible people. they want a right to keep and bear arms and protect their families, but they believe in universal background checks. >> here's where the democrats, some of them go off the rails. are you familiar with what the board of alderman in san francisco did yesterday? >> yeah. >> proposed that the nra be listed as a terrorist organization? >> come on. >> right. come on. that's -- that's the reaction. come on. >> take a cold shower. call me in the morning. >> i'm going to -- >> me? >> no. the guy who said that. >> now to a different topic. things are not going well for boris johnson. >> the ended badly, didn't it? before it began. >> yesterday for the second time in two days parliament delivered

a serious blow to the prime minister, and rejected his attempt to hold a snap general election days before the current brexit deadline of october 31st. >> are we going to show the guy walking across? >> things got so heated that a frustrated johnson even called jeremy corbyn a chlorinated chicken. yesterday lawmakers passed a bill which forces the prime minister to seek another brexit delay from the eu if there's no deal in place by the holiday deadline. it appears unlikely a deal will be in place, but johnson is a proponent of a no-deal divorce and does not want to delay brexit further. it would mark the third extension granted and would delay brexit until january. president trump, a frequent critic of former prime minister

theresa may for not delivering brexit weighed in yesterday from the white house. >> well, boris is a friend of mine, and he's -- he's going at it. there's no question about it. he's in there. i watched him this morning. here's in there fighting. and he knows how to win. boris knows how to win. don't worry about him. he's going to be okay. >> yeah. >> joining us now, jillian ted. good to have you back on the show. >> great to be here. >> it is not going well for boris. it seems so much easier from the cheap seats. >> americans used to think the british politics was all downton abbey, and now it's monte python. it makes american politics look rational. >> we were in london two summers ago, every time we talked about our problems, we said you've got

a problem with one guy. you'll get rid of him. we have a systemic problem, and it's going to stay with us for a long time. everybody said that. >> it looks funny. it looks almost ridiculous. a few minutes ago boris johnson's brother quit in disgust. it's getting worse and worse. there's a serious point under here. essentially it's that what you're seeing is what i call the four ps. you're getting polarization, populism, poisonous anger, and you've got a lot of paranoia. in british politics right now, just as in america. what the really big issue is that a lot of the 20th century structures of politics are breaking down. i think we're probably on the vernal of a big -- verge of a big realignment of politics. it's a big test for democracy. >> i cannot understand. why can't they get a majority for anything? i mean, there are so many options out there.

why can't a group of people come together and get a majority and move forward? >> everyone says why can't you bang heads together in congress and get progress on sensible issues. the problem today is that essentially you've got this incredible polarization right now between if you like the left wing and the right wing. that sound familiar? the other problem is that we have this referendum with a very narrow majority in favor for brexit, but no one ever asked what type of brexit it should be. whether it's a hard brexit or soft brexit, and the parliament actually has a majority of parliament people who don't even want brexit. >> why not revote? is it impossible? >> a lot of people would say that's the obvious solution. the problem is that we're into untested water here. the uk doesn't have referendums a lot, and the idea of doing it this quickly isn't that popular.

>> the whole thing about polarization you were talking act, it seems as if there's almost global polarization. in britain unlike here, you explain to me. in britain does the social media aspect -- has that inflamed and taken this argument to a new level where now nothing can be done? >> absolutely. i mean, the social media has certainly played a role. there's all kinds of dark conspiracy theories in the uk as in here about meddling by outside forces i.e. russia. that aside, the reality is you have a situation where everyone is looking for quick fix solutions. people are very angry with the system and the establishment. they're really grappling on whatever celebrity or cause they can. and it's worth pointing out something i think a lot of americans don't understand is someone like jeremy corbyn has been popular with young people. they've even been selling jeremy

corbyn calendars and albums in the shops because he's become like a celebrity. >> is it possible that boris johnson may have one of the briefest terms as prime minister ever? >> it is possible. it's entirely possible the uk is starting to look like italian politics without the good cooking. >> there you go. thank you, as always. great to see you. coming up, we continue to monitor hurricane dorian. this is video from charleston, south carolina. the storm isn't on shore yet. bill karins tells us when we could see potential land fall. we are not done yet. plus pete buttigieg joins the table. we'll see how he's preparing for next week's democratic debate. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu.

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welcome back to "morning joe." it's thursday, september 5th. still with us we have mike barnicle, former aide to the george w. state department, alise jordan, and eddie glaud junior. joining the conversation, former u.s. senate and claire mccask l mccaskill, and we welcome mayor pete buttigieg of south bend, indiana. good to have you back. >> good to be back. >> with have to much fun watching your campaign. you're the best political athlete we've seen in a long time. >> in a long time. did i see a picture of you on the subway last night? >> yesterday. quickest way to get around. sometimes. >> it is the quickest way to get around. >> times it's not. >> well, on the right lines. >> if we had mayor pete in new york, the subways would probably work. >> we'll see. >> no comment. >> how's it going? >> it's good. we're entering -- you can feel with labor day we're in a

different stage of the campaign. now is when the ground game becomes central. we're opening 20 offices in 20 days across iowa. a bunch of offices around new hampshire. getting more and more organizers on the ground. up to about 100 in iowa. the summer is fun. you do the fairs. but in a way i think now is when a lot of the folks who have not been there for the blow by blow following every minute with every one of the dozen oh two candidates, folks are starting to tune in. you can feel something starting to gel. >> crowds are picking up? >> for sure. we did an office opening in iowa city. we were going -- figured maybe we'd get 100 people. we wound up with 800 people. people are tuning in. for our campaign, we're seeing the momentum build, even though it is a long way out. >> it is a long way. five months out. that's why you always have to be worried about any stories to talk about a campaign and where

it is and the problem. let's talk about what they're saying about your campaign, which is flaming super nova. he exploded out of the gates, and then had a problem in his own hometown regarding the police and -- and now his numbers have flattened out. is that a fair narrative? if it is, how do you get past it? >> i think what's fair is to talk about the importance in order to win and in order to deserve to win. being able to earn the support of black voters. it's especially challenging when you're newer on the scene and we're talking about voters many of whom need to see a lot before they make a final decision in the final days. what i think is not as accurate is to expect we would have continued in blastoff mode forever. it's natural that after arriving on the scene, arriving in a top tier of candidates, now there's more of a kind of level phase where we're building out the ground game. i'm not worried about that. in fact, we're encouraged about the trajectory. i think what's happening at home

in south bend points up what it means to be in charge of a city. and in charge of a challenged city that's got a lot going on. and i welcome the fact that i might be the candidate who or one of the candidates who gets the most questions about race, because this is something we need to talk about, wrestle with, and act on as a country. and i think that it's not just the fact that this administration has brought a lot of issues around race and racism into the open that maybe were beneath the surface. it's the entire american project depends on whether we wrestle down the problems of systemic racism in my lifetime, or allow them to continue to tear up american life. >> without going through a lot of different items, first, what's the big idea? what's the mayor pete big idea on confronting the systemic racial disparities in america? we're going to have tim carny coming on later today talking about how republicans need to be a lot more open when it comes to

race, but he said the numbers are office. economic disparity, incarceration rates. >> but it's more than that. >> so what is the big idea? how do you change things if you're president? >> the big idea is it turns out taking down a racist policy and replacing it with a neutral one is not enough. and the reason is that these disparities you're talking about didn't just happen. they were brought about on purpose. and it turns out that harms compound over time. that means it's going to take intention and resources to reverse a lot of these issues. and it's not just that there's a -- >> give us a specific example of that. >> for example, you look at health care. even when you control for income, it remains the case that black patients are worse off. it's because of things like the fact that a black woman in the e.r. is systemically less likely to have her description of being in pain taken seriously. but it's also things that happen completely outside of the clinical environment like the fact that a lot of black

americans have been redlined into neighborhoods closer to sources of pollution and are more likely to be susceptible to environmental harms. that's why you're more likely to see kids showing up with asthma if they're black. the idea of the douglas plan which is what we put forward, we're investing at home and investing it on things like dealing with systemic racism is it's all connected. at home when we're having tough conversations about policing and race, by the end of the hour, we're talking not about only those issues but also about economic disempowerment. you can't separate those things. you can't talk about the economic piece without talking about health and housing and education and even the ability to vote which we know is being hampered as part of a republican strategy by a party that found out if everybody is able to vote, they're going to lose. we need to look at all of these things together. that's what the douglas plan

does. it >> one of the interesting things about your campaign is you are not shy about talking about the moral underpinnings of the arguments that you're making. trying to shift the way in which we think about politics. that the old way of doing things, the standard way of doing things hasn't worked and we need to do something different. last night in the climate change forum, you made a similar argument about how we ought to approach the question of climate change. give us a little bit more about how this particular accent on the moral question, whether it's around racism or climate change, actually fits and feeds into your perception of yourself as a leader. >> it's very important. being a citizen is something that has moral content. being a voter. the choices we're making are moral choices. i think one of the reasons why we haven't gotten as far as we should on the climate debate is we're sometimes talking about it as a scientific debate or a political debate when we should

really be talking about it as a moral debate. it's why i'm bothered by the phrase save the planet as if it's just this abstract thing in this planet. look, the planet in some form is going to be here no matter what. i'm interested in saving people who have to live on this planet. this is about harm being done to human beings and that has moral weight. especially when you layer the fact that disadvantaged communities are usually those who bear the brunt of natural disasters. in addition to things you might believe are true in my faith tradition around stewardship of creation, the fact that the way we treat the environment has moral implications in that sense, just the fact that the way we treat each other, the climate debate fundamentally is about how we're treating each other. whether we think it's okay for some people around the world to suffer more today and for whole generations in the future to suffer more tomorrow because we're unwilling to make the tough political choices and to summon the national ambition to actually do something about

this. i do think whether it's that issue, certainly the gun issue, or any number of other things we're facing, we have got to be willing to engage at the moral level and do away with this idea that only one side of the aisle is going to talk in moral language. >> there are reasons why we're a bit allergic to this in our party. some of the reasons are good. right? definitely know the consequences of people trying to impose their religion on others through the political process. we're the party that stands up for the idea that when you're in office or running for office, you got to look out for people of any religion, people of no religion, people who might have different moral views. it's still okay for us to talk about moral underpinnings for what it is we believe. >> mayor pete, we have claire mccaskill with us with a question. >> mayor pete, you use the three letter word, god a lot. and it's noticeable, and you've just explained the moral underpinnings of a lot of issues, and that that's part of

your leadership. the other thing i noticed you've done in the climate debate, i noted you talked about the metaphor that washington can't even decide what the disease is and we need to be treating the patient when it comes to climate. talk about your role as an outsider in this campaign. are you feeling that as a positive out there in the campaign trail? do people see you as someone that is outside of the washington eco system and somebody who is -- who can take on some of the frankly in transjens over guns and other things we see with moscow mitch? >> yeah. it's so important, because last night, for example, we saw a whole bunch of democratic candidates talking about climate change, and it turns out most of what we had to say was the same. you could have said the same ten years ago other than that science has gotten more stark. is question isn't should this particular target hit in 2027 or 2032, it's how are we going to

get something done. people are looking at washington and seeing the opposite of action. the opposite of things getting done. i do think that coming from that orientation of being a mayor, being on the ground, not that we find these issues easy to solve at the local level, but that we have to deliver something every day, gives you a different outlook on this. and look, from a political strategy standpoint, just the fact that democrats are really motivated to win this race, let's remember that we tend to do better when we put up somebody who is from outside of washington. either somebody who doesn't go to work in washington every day or somebody who hasn't been there very long because i think americans are so frustrated with what they're seeing there, and what we see is that good ideas and even just regular ideas go to washington and die there. we've got to change that. it's one of the reasons i think we need to get washington to

look more like our best-run cities. try to get congress to look more like the community of u.s. mayors. one place you still see elected officials who are high profile from around the country from both parties who will acknowledge that you've got to do something about the environment and about guns and who like each other. we've got to get congress to look more like the community of mayors before it happens the other way around. >> can i ask quickly, a followup on the faith question. it's a simple one. i'm wondering if you associate yourself with the words of barack obama as we talk about faith and god. barack obama came out noted muslim as many of his political enemies said. and he said i have come to know jesus christ personally at my lord and personal savior. is that your feeling? do you associate yourself with those words? >> yes, but maybe that means different things to different people. a lot of people feel they had a kind of road to damascus personal encounter with god. for me personally, i actually

came to the faith more through an appreciation of mystery, and of personal humility about the limits to which this part of me could get. >> right. >> than believing that i had found the answer. i struggle with a lot of doubt and a lot of ambiguity, but that is there in scripture just as that is there in life. especially in our moral lives. >> is it a feel good thing for you or is he your personal lord and savior? >> that means different things for different people. for me salvation through christ has to do with the fact that when god comes into this world, according to teachings of my faith tradition, the world is basically out to destroy the divine. and yet, through this sacrifice, we see what it means to live out the idea of love, of god's love. now, what's interesting is if

you're into new testament translation, there are several different words in the greek new testament that we would translate as love. so sometimes it's brotherly love. sometimes it's romantic love. we just have this one word, love. they have a lot of different flavors of it in the original language of the bible. i guess my point is this link of love to sacrifice to presence which i think is part of what the idea of the resurrection is about. that you have this presence instead of just being here and then not being here that is mortali mortality, right, is the way for salvation. so i don't know how well aligned that is with how others view their encounter, with christian faith. but i know that in my life it has certain implications, and i also know that it has certain moral implications that i think i can be responsible to without saying that anybody else has to believe what i believe or has to believe anything -- >> of course. that's how i feel.

people believe what they believe. everybody has their own walk. i don't mean to sound like tom hanks in "big", but i don't get it. i'm asking do you believe jesus, son of god, died for your sins, was buried, the third day was resurrected and will sit at the right hand of the father and that your salvation depends on your faith in jesus christ somebody. >> yes. and what we do. what i do. all right? >> but i got a yes. that's a yes. i'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer, but a lot of people know you said yes, and now talk about works. you're about to talk about works. >> there's the scripture that says faith without works is dead. and there are different ways of interpreting that. for some it's how you show something that's already there. for others -- i don't want -- >> let me get into that quickly. i promise i'm going to get to you barnicle. but now you look at -- i always

tell people, just look at the red letters in the new testament. what does jesus talk about? right? he talks about matthew 25. he talks about feeding the hungry. clothing the naked. bringing hope to the hopeless. visiting those in jails. and says when you do that to the least among these, you do this to me. and by the way, that's what jesus says. do his zidisciples. you want to know how to get to heaven? let me tell you and he tell the parable about the sheep and the goats. you see that, and then the story of the good samaritan. jesus saying yes, tell you you have to love your neighbor. and the neighbor was a foreigner, detested by the jews, and jesus challenged them. combine those two things and i just must ask, how do we have

the policies that we have not only at the border but across this country and across this world by people who claim to believe the red letters in the new testament? >> that is one of the mysteries that is truly beyond -- >> that is a mystery. >> i mean, i really think that there has to be a reckoning about this. look, we all have very different, obviously, for as long as there has been faith and politics, there have been different understandings on the right thing to do and how these things fit together, but for the party and the movement known for beating other people on the head with their faith, or their interpretation of their faith, it makes no sense to literally vote to take food away from the hungry. to essentially be practicing the very thing that not just a christian scriptural tradition but so many others tell us we're not supposed to do in terms of harming other people.

and i do think there's going to be a reckoning over that. >> yeah. >> there are a lot of people i think sitting in the pews hearing political conservatism around them wondering if that really matches what we're being told to do. how we're supposed to do it. i mean, another very powerful image that i see in scripture is that of foot washing. go god comes among us. instead of expecting to be exalted is washing people's feet. servant leadership. >> and also what else does jesus say? let the little children come. talks about those who mistreat little children. better they have a mill stone placed around their neck and are thrown to the bottom of the ocean. >> to that point a new report released yesterday by the inspector general of the department of health and human services revealed that migrant children separated from their parents under the trump administration's zero tolerance policy last summer exhibited a

particularly high number of mental health challenges. according to the report, many children already distressed in their home countries or by their journey showed more feelings of abonn donment, fear, and post-traumatic stress syndrome than children not separated from their parents. it's a study on how family separation has affected the children based on interviews with about 100 mental health clinicians with regular interactions with the detained children. the report shows that the longer children were in custody, the more their mental health deteriorated? >> like something that was predicted from the very beginning. >> obvious. >> i have to tell you a couple things. first, if you read that report and don't tear up reading it, there might be something wrong with you internally. the other thing is the discussion that you just had, that the two of you just had. it is so positive in politics to

hear candidates talking about god and faith and humility and salvation that i would hope, i would urge you as a citizen of this great experiment that's called america to continue talking about this in public. it's uplifting. it's educational, and instructional. and now my question. which sort of feeds into everything you've been talking about as well as the report that mika just read about, and it is this. you've been going across this country for month monnow. you've probably picked up the country is kind of divided, that people are anxious about who we are, and about our future as a republic. the country was divided and endangered 51 years ago this summer because men were being

killed in a war built on a lie. 51 years ago. we survived that and won since, but the repercussions of that war, i think still exist today, 51 years later. if you go through the country, and you think about the political divisions and the cultural divisions that separate us, if you're president of the united states, what do you do about perhaps the number one priority for the next american president to heal this country? >> well, first of all, i think we have to recognize that there is greater capacity for healing and for unity among the american people right now than there is, perhaps, among the members of the american congress. you can say that around certain issues where congress is paralyzed and hopelessly divided but the american people are pretty unified in demanding

action. something like background checks on guns is a good example. this is deeper about policy. this is about who we are. are we one country or not? i see a lot of hope here. it will not be easy. and -- look, one of the things you learn as a mayor is that your job when you're elected in an executive office is a big part of your job is simply holding together the population that you're in charge of when things tear at it. and it's incredibly difficult and incredibly important. but some of the very things that are dividing us right now could be things that unify us. it's why my approach on climate is a little different. i think we can unify the american people in a national project that all of us are proud to have something to do with. including people who have maybe been made to feel like progress on climate would be at their expense like rural america. i think there are so many issues like this where if we get it right -- and this is where i part ways with maybe some of my

fellow progressives running for president -- that we can even on something that's been divisive like health care, if you we it right, we bring americans together. it's also why the stakes are so high if we don't. if we polarize americans even further in the course of trying to deliver good policy, then we're adding fuel to the fire of this division. one other thing quick i want to mention. here's what i think is different from 51 years ago. 51 years ago you saw young people take to the streets marching against their parents. they felt their parents' generation sent them to war. it was a clash of generations. when i see a lot of these mobilizations right now around climate, certainly around guns, led by young people as was the case in the 60s, but this time i see their parents and grant parents at their side cheering them on. i see it at my events. a grandchild will drag their grandparent to an event to see me. i see the makings of a

generational alliance that could allow this tough time in american life to be something that brings us together if we have the right kind of leadership. >> you've given us an inspiring vision for healing america's wounds at home, and helping the polarization. what is your vision for a more moral foreign policy for america going out into the world? >> this is so important. every time that america has felt that it could shortchange its values in order to advance our interests, we've been wrong. sometimes it took a while to catch up to us, but eventually it did. the world i think needs america right now more than ever. you look at what's going on in hong kong, you look at the way that saudi arabia has been acting, and a dozen other places around the world. i think among other things it reflects what happens when there's a vacuum of american leadership. the world needs america, but it can't be just any america. it can't be an america where the u.s. president is copying some of the same tactics of dictators

and declaring unfavorable press coverage to be the result of the press being the enemy of the people. if we are going to champion human rights and democracy, and eventually by the way, climate action. if we're going to champion those things around the world, first we've got to do it at home. if we don't, i don't think anybody else will. we're needed more than i think we've been in a long time. but we've got to actually be practicing what we preach. >> mayor pete, people are focusing now on the campaign. if they want to get involved in your campaign, what do they do? >> peteforamerica.com is a great place to begin. text pete to 25859 so you know when we're in your neighborhood. >> that's a text and not a website. right? >> that's correct. >> it's a joke. give me the numbers again. >> 25859. peteforamerica.com gets richer by the day in terms of the policy stuff we're adding. also a great way to make sure we

have a great way to keep in touch with you. organizing at this stage is about relationships. we need to know where our supporters are, and we're going to ask our supporters to reach out to others have who haven't been included in this campaign yet and build that base. >> and you can find out about their rescue dog. i have several. mayor pete, thank you very much. great to have you on the show. still ahead, it seems like a no-brainer. apparently it needs to be said. quote, it's time to create a conservative eco system that doesn't welcome racists. tim carny is here. >> an important statement to make. >> a new piece that might enlighten next on "morning joe." geico makes it easy to get help when i need it. with licensed agents available 24-7, it's not just easy. it's having-jerome-bettis- on-your-flag-football-team easy.

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joining us now, commentary editor for the washington editor and visiting fellow at the american enterprise substitute, tim carney. here's with his latest piece entielted it's time to create a conservative eco system that doesn't welcome racists. he writes liberal commentators will always say conservatives are just a bunch of racists. this is a lie, but conservatives need to do a better job convincing the racists that it's a lie. a hand full of conservatives including quietly influential figures in important conservative institutions were outed last week by leaked emails as participating in a prohitler nakedly anti-semitic and plainly racist email list. why the hell did racists seek homes in liberal institutions and why were young conservatives

easily won over to racist views? snide liberals will chuckle and say something like because conservatism is racism, but the snideness and falseness of that answer shouldn't deter us from mulling over the question and doing something to make clear that conservatism and racism don't mix. conservatives ought to make elevation of african american immigrants and religious minorities so central to conservatism that all dedicated racists will be repelled. why? mostly because it's the right thing to do. conservatives will be able to take solace in the fact that we're fighting the good fight and pissing off the racists. >> so tim, your ears should be burning. we're all talking about what an important column this was. barnicle was talking about your book which really is an extraordinary book that explains -- >> thank you. >> i think as well as any book we've read what's happened over the past several years to this

country. but i was so heartened when i read your column yesterday. it is a column that needed to be written. and i say that as a conservative from the south who went to a state school who has been telling people for 50 years that the republican party and conservatives aren't racists. only that donald trump made me look pretty stupid over the past three years. talk about why it's important for conservatives to take their movement back and just the genesis of the article for you. why you felt like you needed to write it. >> well, as some of the passages suggest, i spent a lot of time just being annoyed. if you say the word obama care, some columnist in news week will say it's a racist slur. i got attacked for opposing the libya invasion because they were claiming i was only anti-war when there was a black president. of course, that's not true. as a conservative, you get

called racist for everything. there's an article where somebody was making fun of anti-semitism, a labor department official was called racist. i'm consistently on the defensive there, but when the article in splinter news came out showing some of the people i run in circles with including somebody who brought me in to speak to interns that he was running a pro-hitler newsletter, that's where i say these people get the impression that conservatism is winnable over to their pro-hitler ideology. they're trying to infiltrate our institutions. that's when i said there's something we've got to do better. i'm not the kind of guy who is into driving these guys out. that's why i use the word eco system. let's make our world, conservatives circles and journalism outlets and conservative think tanks, be the place where racists say no, those people are always talking about how we're going to help immigrants and help black moms have and raise their babies. they're so worried about nonwhite people, i don't want to

be involved with them. that's what i'm aiming for with this piece. >> you also talked about how it was immoral if you look at the income disparity between white americans and black americans. you just said just out and out immoral. the same thing with incarceration rates. >> that's right. >> i may get you and eddie cloud together to get together to run for office in four years? >> the median income of african americans is half that of white americans. the incarceration rate is five times more among blacks than whites. it might be worse. this is sort of faith hour here on thursday morning on "morning joe." i'm a christian. i believe deeply that all men are created equal in the image of god, and so if we have these horrible outcomes that suggests something in the system is wrong. a lot of talk about racism will sound to sensitive white ears like oh, you guys are evil.

you haare oh pressing blacks. i don't think white people are oppressing blacks. i think there's a system that's relatively unfair. that's where it's tricky. we believe in capitalism and believe you can make yourself do better through your own efforts. it's easy to fall into the assumption that if you're doing poor, it's your own fault. we need to realize that's not the case. if the outcomes are this desperate, there's something that's off. there are conservative policies that can address it. we talk about school choice, building up communities. those are the most important things. conservatives are better on it. i think we need to say maybe we need to tweak our policy priorities. tax cuts? how about because of this income disparity we go after the lowest rates, the payroll tax. we cut the payroll tax? that will have a bigger affect on african americans and immigrants than it will whites because more african americans and immigrants aren't paying the income tax.

some of it will be what are our policies. emphasize how they help religious racial minorities and immigrants. the second part is reorganizing the policy priorities. >> we were talking about what an important article this was. you and i are going to have disagreements on the size and the scope of the federal government and what the federal government should do. i would tell you if you're talking about starting 100 federal new programs i would say let me show you evidence of how this does not help the disadvantaged in the long run if that's all we're doing. and if the left and the right aren't yelling at each other, if conservatives and liberals like tim and us, we come together and you come together in good faith, then we can say okay, we all have the same goal. here's my concern as a conservative. >> right. >> there's your concern as a liberal. or as a progressive. what we're talking act is not going to go far enough.

that's the conversation, and i'm not being polly annish. this is the conversation we're going to have to have as a country. >> i think you're right. but there's an operative phrase you used in setting this up. that was good faith. >> good faith. >> and this is the problem with our politics. a lot of folk link or identify conservatism with racism because they don't think we're engaging each other in good faith. tim brought up school choice. school choice is tethered to brown v board. >> i totally disagree. >> this was -- >> totally -- >> let's talk about the facts. when we begin to think about the desegregation of schools in the south, what did we see as a result? we saw not only in the south but in the north and the west people flying, fleeing public school and going to private schools and wanting the tax dollars to follow them. hold on. i'm not reducing the argument of school choice to that historical reality, but i'm saying it's the undertone. and so part of what i think what

tim is doing is really important, and what we do day in and day out is really important. but how do we tell ourselves a story about how the i put it, about the racist undertone of our politics? republicans post 1964, 1965, '68, took advantage of all of those people who rejected desegregation, who rejected the idea of racial equality. >> okay. so let me respond really quickly. and this will show why we have to come to those conversations in good faith. because i grew up in mississippi, 1969. we moved to the outskirts of mississippi. we went to a public school the first year. mississippi schools were desegregated but we had people in our neighborhood that went to an academy that automatically

spru sprung up in a cow pasture. i understand what you're talking about, but when i talk about school choice, i'm talking about my experiences with mika going to harlem and schools with all a majority of black students whose parents from surrounding neighborhoods are so poor and so disadvantaged, they know if they can get their kid in harlem vil taj academy, they've got a chance to graduate with numbers like kids that graduate from high schools in bronxville. >> and can i say something else in. >> and i'll get you in a second. that's why it's important that we have this conversation in good faith, because you've got your preconceptions about mississippi 1969. i've got my preconceptions about a lot of times liberals are more concerned about education being a jobs program than helping the

poor and the most disadvantaged among us. go ahead, tim. >> on the electorate it's a popular thing to say oh, well, the problem is the republicans just need the racist vote to win. my theory on this is this, everybody is kind of a little bit racist. we are fallen creatures. we judge other people by lots of standards. one of them is race. politicians both thomas e kwien us and st. augustine talk about how the law and our leaders end up shaping our souls. politicians can either bring out the best in us or emphasize the worst in it. so our leaders can make us more or less racist. i don't want conservative leader who is are out there -- because there's not racist voters and nonracist voters out there. everybody has their own bigotries whether it's against religious, black, white, et cetera. i want conservative leaders wearing away any black racism among whites whether they're in the south or boston.

that's the thing. we can't brand somebody permanently a racist. that's 1% of the population. most people who have this problem, the leaders can lead them away from their bigotries and conservative leaders should be the ones on the forefront. >> you know, tim, i think you're absolutely right, and i would say this. this is the way in which i will -- i would render your claim. we want to build a world where racism can't breathe. simply can't breathe. it's hard. i think it's next to impossible sometimes to convince folk to be otherwise, to drop their commitments and we spend a lot of energy trying to convince racists not to be racist. i rather think it is best and i would love to hear your thinking about this. it might be a better use of our energy to try to build a world where racist commitments can't breathe. >> the fact is everybody has got a little bit of different prenl diss and bigotries in them. if you create sort of social norms, ways of talking about things where nobody ever feels

comfortable bringing up whatever little bigotry is sitting in their heart, that will wither and die in their heart. this is what social norms do. so many times i think, again, this is a conservative insight, but the left often knows this, too. that just the most powerful thing are the unstated norms that are set in communities. and sometimes these can be destructive. what i'm saying is on the right it should be an unstated norm that has that effect of pushing down any racism against blacks, discrimination against religious minorities, et cetera. it gets pushed down enough that it's under the surface and it suffocates. >> rick, tyler, jump in. >> so tim, i think this is an important conversation to have. i think the biggest lesson i guess i've learned in the last three years is how ill defined conservatism is. i get it from both the trumps and the republicans saying i'm now a liberal because i'm critical of trump, and i also get it from the idea that it's

so ill defined. i mean, edmund berk had the greatest defense, he was a british parliamentarian during the revolutionary war. to me conservatism is simply ordered liberty. burke argued, he invented liberalism. we were known as the liberals right up until fdr, then we became the conservatives, just an artifact of history. if my party who i thought was conservative turned out we were just the ugly cursed child, stepchildren of the republican party, and now we're somehow on the outside, we're neither welcome in the party, i think conservatives, because i don't think people who follow trump's policies could call themselves conservatives. so what is your -- what do you think needs to has been so the people understand what

conservatism is and that it is actually liberty. that's all it is. it's freedom. we want everybody to have it? >> i think it's more than liberty. this is where i -- i learned a lesson from trump's election about the nation, the nature of the e electric trat. i'm in washington. we can be very ideological. we can read and think it's conservatism. that's not how most people think about it. what i want to bridge from the trump base to the sort of movement in ideological base we're coming from is the idea that people want to conserve something. there's a way of life and a feeling that something was lost. now, it's very easy to either assume that's all white privilege, straight guys losing their privilege, and it's easy if you're a demagogue to cob vince people they're losing what they had of value because of gays, blacks, immigrants, whatever. conservatives need to say

there's something valuable in the ability to have a job for 30 years and be able to retire on it. all of these things have had value. and we can't just be the creative destruction guys. because that doesn't embrace the fact that rapid change is really disruptive to regular people's lives. >> claire mccaskill. >> tim, listen, i admire the column, but let's get real. donald trump is running for reelection on one simple premise, go after immigrants. you've mentioned immigrants several times this morning. i'm looking forward to your column where you discuss how immoral it is for the president of the united states to run a campaign based on marginalizing, separating children from their families, all these things that should be an enat ma to

conservatives. i want you to call that out as you talk about the struggle the conservatives have with disavowing any kind of racism. >> i would even blame former colleagues in the senate who are nothing like trump. the only thing they offered was the chamber of commerce immigration plan. if you started from an immigration plan where you said we're not going to do guest worker programs just about bringing in the most exploitable impossible employees because we care about working class hispanics, blacks and whites in the country, so we're going to have immigration control, but at the same time, our duty to our neighbor, to the good samaritan, to the hungry person at the border, we're going to beef up what we're doing at the border and treat these people as humans this. this is one of the most distressing things about trump. he would recite this poem "the snake". he would dehumanize immigrants arriving so there's ways of talking about saying well, we do

need to have immigration control. we do need to have different policies. our policies should even serve the people here in the united states. those are not ideas that are going to be popular on the left. those can be conservative ideas but at the same time, don't engage in the sort of dehumanizing rhetoric trump does and do say if people are going to be detained at the border, we have an obligation. this is a federal thing. we have an obligation to make sure they're detained in good circumstances and let's try to fix the laws so they're treated as well as possible. >> and the "morning joe" faith hour, all the people said amen. >> amen? . >> tim, we sometimes say we're as far as spending goes, more of a deficit hawk, i am. you're not. you're more -- what would you say? sort of jack kemp? >> yeah. >> i think so. but on immigration, it's funny. you've said something i've tried to explain to people forever. when i was in congress, i was too conservative on immigration,

because i said you know what? our immigration policy is the chamber of commerce immigration policy where you let everybody. . you don't take care of them. it's all about cheap labor. i was talking act you know what? breaking the law when you cross the border is breaking the law, but it was republicans who said let them come in because we want the cheap labor. that's what i fought when i was in congress. now we get to this point, and suddenly it's just the opposite. i guess, though, it's all hypocritical, isn't, tim? how many business owners have been arrested? how many business owners have been put in cages for a hiring of illegal immigrants and they knew they were hiring illegal immigrants and they knew they were making millions of dollars off illegal immigrants? donald trump has hired illegal immigrants his entire life. >> he fired them all. >> i haven't seen small business owners put in jail for that. have you?

>> some of the immigration rates, you think the guy who bears the most responsibility here is the guy who had the power and privilege and knew what he was doing, and the other victim is the people here legally who didn't get hired because they got boxed out by somebody who is more exploitable and would do it for cheaper. >> tim carney, thank you very much. we'll be reading your piece in "the washington examiner yts. >> thank you. still ahead, we'll run through some of the latest poll numbers on the democrat's race for the nomination, and what happens when they go head to head against president trump? plus more republican congress members head for the door. what's behind the exodus of incumbents on capitol hill? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

joining us now, executive chairman of winview and cnbc contributor and author tom rogers. he's up with a new title. it's more ready than a lot of states but not as really acid needs to be. the democrats look like they have a decent chance of flipping in with pennsylvania. the poll he shoud earlier looked decent for wisconsin, but wisconsin is always close. it wasn't a fluke that trump won by 23,000 votes, john kerry won by 11,000 votes in 2004. al gore won by 6,000 votes in 2000. >> it's funny, i don't remember it being that tight every year. i just remember republicans have not won it since 2008.

>> the democrats pulled it out and the theory was that it would always go democrat, but the governor just beat scott walker there by about 1% of the vote, the democratic governor who is there now. and then they had a statewide vote for the supreme court that republicans just won. johnson, republican won i think with 50.2% of the vote. so it is a close, close state and if the other two flip for the democrats, trump holds wisconsin, he wins by one electoral vote. >> all right. >> tom, i was reading what canada has done in terms of election security. they have far advanced the united states. in terms of election security and wisconsin, are there paper ballots and cities and towns in

wisconsin? is that safe isn't it? can it be hacked into? >> those are both vulnerabilities. a lot, i would say most of wisconsin is paper ballot. that is optically scanned. but they've got a number of counties with these older machines that are touch screen. that don't operate on a paper ballot that's first generated. subject to manipulation. they have 2,000 people that have access to this statewide voter registration base. >> why 2000? >> it has 72 counties, 852 municipalities. there are a lot of people who are given access. obviously, the more people given access, the more people that can be hacked in terms of unauthorized registration. it does have same day voter registration which is a help if it gets hacked, but if something happens on election day itself and creates havoc, that creates

long lines. >> whoa. >> claire has a question. >> let's talk about wisconsin farmers. we saw the ag indicators take a sharp dive in august. a lot of farmers out in the midwest are very upset. a lot of pressure on him now. i know that's a big deal in wisconsin in terms of in terms of how this is going to swing either to the democrat side. >> i think the issue is, one, how close it can be. two, how decisive it can be. but three, the russians know all this. the russians know that wisconsin could decide the whole election.

counties with 70,000 people or less. they don't have the capability to be able to protect themselves against russia attack. you have a republican state legislature. the republicans stripped out all the money for election security. and so how are they going to help themselves against a potential for attack and it doesn't take a lot to disrupt the county with 72,000 people, a few people in the i.t. department and no ability to protect yourself. >> i hope the governor -- >> but that's why this legislature.

>> the only place to go to try to deal with security issues. donations to the wisconsin state democratic party, the election system, which in the end of the day to prove the size still. >> thanks so much for coming on. it's great to see you. >> great to see you. >> claire, thank you, as well, as always. still ahead, tracking hurricane dorian. this is a live picture as the carolinas get pounded by dorian. we'll get the latest forecast from bill karins. plus, who needs truths and facts when you have a sharpie. the president just clinging to his false claim that alabama was in the path of the hurricane. "morning joe" is back in a moment. "morning joe" is back in a moment

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spending time together, sometimes means doing nothing at all. holiday inn. we're there. so you can be too. >> i don't know. i don't know. i don't know. >> so i called up the folks at sharpie and i said, to me a favor. can you make the pen in black? make it look rich. and they said not only can we do that, we can put your signature

on it. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, september 5th. with us we have mike barnacle. >> oh, my. >> let's listen. ♪ just my imagination ♪ running away from me >> white house and state departments, professor at princeton university eddie claude jr. and republican communication strategist and msnbc political contributor rick tyler. >> so you worked with presidents. you worked in administrations. they purchased sharpies and -- >> and mislead people personally for their own personal need to cover up a stupid tweet? you know, for a friend. wanted to know. >> absolutely not in the closest example i can think of is a kid in third or fourth grade trying to doctor their report card.

>> i have -- the first thing i thought of was trying to turn a 62 into an 82 for my mother on my report card. >> it's a devastating hurricane. >> and hilarious. but i think probably also illegal. >> eddie, i'm just curious. at this point, i'm just laughing at the stupidity. i know i should be shocked. pulling my hair out like everybody on twitter is and saying this is the end of democrats. it's just stupid. it's just stupidity. and it is transparent stupidity and i just -- when i see these tweets, i just break out laughing going, it's just madness. >> yeah. you know, i -- that's the word. just need to keep saying it, keep using it. it's stupid. i mean, i just -- we say all the time that he's not curious, that the gut language is what the gut language is. but at the end of the day, he's not the sharpest knife in the

knife box. >> he's not even that other knife. >> that's really odd. >> a plastic spoon. >> a lot of internet memes came out of this which is what the kids and i are most interested in. there's a sharpie. >> there's the crowd size. >> and look to the right, there's the crowd size down below. and, of course, the imaginary fence has been built, rick tyler. at last, the imaginary fence. and i just sit and ask, as you look at that imaginary fence and listen to trump supporters believe donald trump's lies, i guess the only thing that's important about this is pointing out, again, the lies are

nonstop. so it just shows how absurd all of his defenders are on this particular issue. >> i can't believe the doctor eddie suggested donald trump is not the sharpest sharpie in the drau drawer. you know, it is funny. i mean, i laughed as you did when i saw the map and how abdomen you surd absurd it is. it speaks to donald trump's character. and you can look at everything he does. so when we look at a constitutional republican inside a democracy, in order for things to get done in the house and senate, you have to have honest brokers. that is people have to deliver on what they say they're going to deliver. and part of the reason we don't have any gun reforms like background checks, universal background checks is because mitch mcconnell does not brief donald trump will do what he says he's going to do. and if you look at the markets, if you look at china, china, we don't have a trade deal with

china, by the way, which could have all been solved if we just stayed with tpp, the trans-pacific partnership because we would have the world group you competing against china in our favor. but instead of doing that, that must have been a barack obama deal so instead we're going to tax the american people to try to win some stupid trade war. but, again, it's a negotiation and not negotiating with somebody who is honest because constitutional republics and free markets and contract law, they all require that you're dealing with somebody who has a scratch of the truth and will tell the truth and he doesn't. >> and, joe, your first reaction to this was laughter. i think it's moments like this that make you realize maybe it will be okay.

>> is there no one who can say, mr. president, nobody thinks this is a good idea? >> so there is no one -- >> it's interesting you bring up that question right after i say this, too, shall pass. donald trump shall pass as far as his political power in washington, d.c. and it's going to happen sooner rather than later with the election. but the -- the residue of going along with these lies, the residue of going along with the racism, i think obvious racism. of going against basic republican beliefs, balanced budgets, free trade, supporting nato, all of these things that will stay with the republican party. and this is a spotlight on the most serious deficiency. yes, that is the truth and then the fact that he was a spoiled

young boy whose father gave him $400 million in current dollars. he was able to live in his own universe or world. i think one of the most telling moments, james mattis, rex tillerson, they gave him the talk. mr. president, james mattis didn't say this, but it was basically you're not getting this. let me explain the history since 1945. and explain to you why nato exists, explain to you why the world in which we live is the world it is on the international stage and how america became the supreme power over the nations. that's when trump got angry and said i don't believe that. that's not my view of it. that's when rex tillerson said this guy is a moron.

that's how this alternate reality does impact it. so, yes, i can laugh at his stupidity of the sharpy, the obviousness of the 4-year-old with a sharpie. the initial reaction is to laugh out lawsuit. it's laugh out loud funny it's so absurd. but the other aspect of it borders on being truly dangerous. and it is that we have a command ner chief, president of the united states, who considers that he can never be wrong, about anything, about something to inconsequential as a hurricane heading towards alabama, the national path that every weather service was telling him. he can never be wrong so he has to alter reality. that gets into the larger and lingering damage, is there any more truth? what is truth now?

>> well, that -- that is a huge conversation. >> what a terrible, terrible lye to lead, to never admit that you're wrong. i do it about 12 times a day and it is liberating. especially outwardly. we're eight minutes into this hour. i'm sure i've done it already. >> we're going to get to more of the absurdly of the sharpie story in just a moment. first, let's get the latest on hurricane dorian. the death toll from the storm in the bahamas, expected to increase. several relief organizations say that's normal.

a category 3, wind and rain lashed eastern parts of georgia and south carolina overnight. this is video from charleston earlier this morning as residents along the entire carolina coastline brace for dangerous storm. meteorologist bill karins, bill, when is it going to go away. >> if you went to bad last night and it was a category 2 and now you're waking up to a category 3. we are about to witness another billion dollar weather disaster in our country as we go throughout the day today, tonight and through tomorrow. so there it is. there's the eye of it. 115 miles per hour. here is the new 5:00 a.m. advisory. the forecast path right along the south carolina coastline. did not look like we're going to get that landfall to georgetown or myrtle beach. it will be a close call for

wrietsvil wrightsville beach, then we expect it to go right up throughouter banks as we go throughout this evening. here are your hurricane warnings from savannah up to the carolina coastline. here is the timing of the worst of it you'll see today. you'll see pictures of charleston with feet of water in it. it floods easily, anyway. it will not be a pretty scene there today. myrtle beach this afternoon and evening, winds get up to 90 miles per hour. then power outages will be widespread. if we get that landfall of the eye into the wilmington area, we could get 110 miles per hour winds and that will likely be about 10:00 p.m. this evening until about 2:00 a.m. and then the winds start to come down. when we wake up tomorrow morning, it's still going to the outer banks. winds could gust up to 115 miles per hour along with that 8 to 14 inches of rain. so as far as the impacts go, i have upped this to the major category for storm surge in south carolina through the high tide this afternoon.

inland flooding is going to be a huge issue. for north carolina, we're going to watch the inland flooding is a big concern. it's the water that kills people. we'll have a lot of people with power outages that could last easily up to a week in areas of the carolinas. >> so it's going to look like the outer banks again, another direct hit. that will be ugly and flooding in charleston. so -- so you actually, bill, also in between all of these, had a busy week. but you actually had to fact check the president's map. can you give us some insight into that? >> the story continued, of course, because our president still wanted to explain why he said alabama. so let me take you to this map. so september 1st, 8:00 a.m. in the morning is when he tweeted and added alabama to the states that are increasing in risk. and that's when this whole thing started. when that tweet came out, this was the forecast. this was the official forecast that should have been in a document. so he wakes up in the morning --

>> i'm not good with geography, but i don't think that map even -- like, touches atlanta, georgia. >> no. >> so that was that. so let's say he missed this. so then, last night after the media was piling on and he asked for our apologies, and he said this was the forecast map that made him say alabama was in the path. these are the computer models. >> looks bad. >> looks horrible. so then i looked closer. the date of that was august 20th, four days before he certainty the tweet. so i said why would he send a map out four days in advance? >> this is science. we actually do have the data. isn't that amazing? >> science. >> what? >> how can he ever ever imagined. >> so hours before the tweet, these were what the lines looked

like. 24 hours before none of the lines go into alabama. let's go 48 hours before. almost into alabama. how about 72 hours before the tweet. oh, now we've got something. a couple go there. but that's not good enough. let's make it look better and do 96 hours on the 28th. this is the map that he sent out. so here is your choice. we can either believe the whole kindergarten change in the number of 62 to 82 or maybe he did go four straight days without being briefed or looking at the updates on the hurricane and he did believe with what he saw. which one is worse? wow. >> four days behind. >> so there is fine print on the image of the map that says nhs advisories and county emergency management statements supersede this product. this graphic could compliment, not replace nhc discussions. there is also u.s. statute on

false weather reports. is that worth noting, given the fact that i think the president might have given out a false weather report, right? so apparently that's against the law. >> the easy answer is that donald trump was just lying because of his ego, but i think that bill raises a far more disturbing prospect, that the president was completely asleep at the wheel -- >> for four days. >> and reportedly two golf outings. >> canceled the trip and then, which by the way, i'm glad he cancels the trip overseas. but yeah. so maybe for four days he was golfing. >> but he said he was getting hourly updates. his words.

some people are asking, what is the big deal? it's not that -- you know, that map isn't really for us. it's not really for tv. that map is for emergency managers that represent all the citizens and their counties. that sets a plan in place for preparations and eventual evacuations. how about the hurricane center people that got media requests all day yesterday asking them to comment on the president tweaking and altering their product that they've been doing for the last week nonstop trying to protect our citizens and they're bothered by us asking, hey, do you comment on the president doing this? they're trying to save our lives. they're working around the clock. >> we appreciate you working around the clock this past week. you've been doing an incredible job. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> and who is going the pay for the wall? who? >> mexico. >> who is going to pay for the

wall? >> mexico. >> who? >> mexico. >> instead of chanting mexico, they should have been chanting the u.s. military. the latest on the administration's plan to fund a border wall and the republican senators who will pay a big political price potentially. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. if your gums bleed when you brush, you may have gingivitis. and the clock could be ticking to much worse: bad breath. then, over time, receding gums. and possibly... tooth loss. help turn back the clock on gingivitis with parodontax toothpaste. it's three times more effective at removing the main cause of bleeding gums. leave bleeding gums behind. parodontax. they give us excellent customer otservice, every time.e.

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maria left puerto rico devastated in 2017. now the pentagon is deferring hundreds of millions of dollars meant for recovery projects on the island to pay for president trump's wall instead. according to a new list published by the department of defense, there were 127 military construction projects being

delayed as the agency moves $3.6 billion to pay for the wall. puerto rico is one of the hardest hit, obviously. more than $400 million meant for ten construction projects on the island will be diverted, including money for a power substation and a national guard readiness center. >> but he said believe me. he said believe me. >> the diversions will impact 23 states with new york and new mexico. both represented by democrats taking the brunt of the blow. new york is set to lose 160 million for construction projects at the west point military academy. >> so he's stealing from west point. >> mexico is not paying for the wall. it's puerto rico and the national guard and it's the u.s. military. >> he's stealing from west point. >> it looks that way. really, there --

>> and it wasn't the wall that he promised, that mexico would pay for. >> new mexico is going to lose $125 million. but there are several republican senators facing re-election next year who voted in support of trump's emergency declaration and now their states will lose money to build the wall. they include north carolina, senator thom tillis. >> so the state of north carolina, their military, for military construction projects that will not only bring jobs and keep jobs and donald trump is gunning $80 million from thom

tillis. martha mcsally in arizona couldn't stop donald trump from gutting $20 million from arizona military bases. but she's so loyal. oh, this is rich. >> moscow mitch, the $62 million. we don't know how much rubles that is, but it's the equivalent of $62 million. corey gardner, $8 million stolen from his military projects. >> linssy graham, $11 million stolen from south carolina and john cornin, $38 million stolen from the state of texas. that 2020 election should be a safe race, but might be another -- they're calling it texodus because texas republicans keep quitting congress rather than running for re-election. donald trump stole -- i can't

believe he stole $80 million from the people in north carolina and thom tillis could couldn't do anything about it. >> let's focus on south carolina and the nuts and bolts of what happens with money. you've got people coming back from four, five, six tours in afghanistan and/or iraq. part of that money ostensibly, i would have to imagine, is going to be used for improvement necessary military housing. so that is gone. i would like to be running against tom tillis in north carolina either in republican primary or against him in the fall. and please explain to me, senator tillis, why you allowed $80 million to be diverted from people who really serve our country. >> well, yeah. rick tyler, this is -- this is just -- >> what happens.

>> this is not tough. if you're running against tom tillis or in the alternative, if you care about our military men and women that serve overseas, that serve here, to still $8 on million for a wall that he said mexico was going to pay for that republicans wouldn't even fund. they had control of the house and the senate for two years and john cornin said it wasn't worth it. lindsey graham said it wasn't worth it. so he stole money from their states. i don't care who it was, newt gingrich did try to take money from some of my military bases and it did not end well. i got all the money back and i was just a lowly congressman. so these senators -- i forget about that.

i actually -- was fine with everything. i swear to god -- handed me a piece of paper and he said, here you go, congressman. you tell me where you want the money to go on your five military bases and we'll put it there. that was the end of the story after that gutted my military bases. and i was a slowly freshman. these senators, thom tillis, he just stole $8 million from your state. how weak are you? unbelievable. >> this has political implications with thom tillis in north carolina which is not a rock solid republican state and then you have cory gardner in colorado and you put those two seats at risk. but the other is let's just look

at the simple -- it's a national security issue and that is the reason republicans including cornyn didn't pay for the wall is because it's not a national security concern. but if you took george w. bush and barack obama in their combined terms, they built 684 miles of wall. barack obama actually completed 130 miles of wall in his first year of his first term. and donald trump is on mile zero. he has nothing to sew for this promise of becomiuilding a wall. coming up, dan rather has seen a lot over his decades of covering the news. he joins us with his perspective on the trump era.

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dangerous winds. we brought our cameras down here to -- directly from galveston. the weather station here has 250 mile radar out in the galveston and helping compile the forecast. >> that was dan rather back in 1961 reporting for channel 11 cc khou in texas. that was not only his first big assignment for the station, but it caught the attention of cbs news executives who hired him the very next year. dan joins us now. you then, very many years later, became my boss when i was at the cbs evening news and dan put my stories on the air. and i'll forever be grateful. he was a real supporter. his book "what unites us reflections on patriotism." dan is here to talk about that and we'll talk about the

hurricane and the coverage. you've covered so many holding on to telephone poles and trees throughout your career. and then the president makes his own map. help me out, dan. was i being too hard on him today? >> no. maybe not hard enough under the circumstances. each time something like this happens, we say we can't go any lower, he can't go any lower. but this map of alabama and the hurricane, i mean, what can you say? >> what can you say? >> it does raise some questions, all kinds of questions. i've been reluctant to go there as to whether there's something wrong with him. something like this, i'm almost speechless about it. but it does race questions as to whether something is really, really wrong with him. >> i think that's a fair

question. some of us might have asked the question a little too early. but it's worth asking, for sure. there have been a number of events in the past few months that make you ask is he okay. is there something wrong with him. i also go to, dan, who are the people around him in the white house? is there no one who can say, taking a sharpy to a map and making a fake weather outlook is a very bad idea, mr. president. you will look like a fool. you will, you know, depreciate the confidence that people have and the platform of the presidency. you're insulting the intelligence of americans. is there no one who can say that to him? >> i think, number one, the answer is no, there is no one. if there is anyone, you obviously doesn't listen. >> wow. that is incredible. let's talk about what unites us, especially during this time of so much division. even the topic that we're discussing. i mean, he brings great division to, i think, people across america. and it's concerning at this

time. we've been spending a great deal of this show talking about race, the roots of racism, but also how we deal with it. you write about patriotism. how does it play into the picture of today? >> this is one reason i wanted to write the book and finally wrote the book that president trump, he's not the only one in terms of the president that has the most power. that is exploring our differences. we have our differences and president trump has taken it to his own personal advantage to explore those differences. so it's time we have to take a deep breath and steady, think about what unites us. ourselves, we're in danger of sliding from extreme nationalism into tribalism. in our country which is a new experiment in history. first time in history for people a that want to be free and at

the same time multi racial, multi ethnic. this is a new thing in history. it depends on as a people, as a nation, that people overwhelmingly agree on rule of law. one person, one vote. if we don't concentrate on those things that unite us, you know, i know a lot of people are. as you well know, mika, i'm an optimism by nature and by experience. we can get through this. but only if we begin to emphasize those things that hold us together, those things, what unites us rather than constantly being exploited by what divides us. >> so, dan, let me ask you a question that might test your optimism, that we just saw the clip from 1961. a couple of years later, you're in washington, dallas, the

kennedy assassination, a tumultuous decade, the 60s. a lot of divisions. i was thinking about one of the things that you referenced in your book, i believe, in october of 1965, andrew johnson, then the president of the united states, fly toes new york. he's in harbor islands in the shadow of the statue of liberty and he signs a huge change in our immigration laws. basically eliminating the quota systems. fast forward to today. immigration has become the accelerant for further division in this country, an accelerate poured on to the country coast to to coast by the president of the united states. are you still optimistic? >> i am still optimistic, but i realize exactly what you said. a lot of people don't know that the immigration reform act of 1965 led to a real sea change in

the culture of the country. as the demographics of the country changed tremendously in the years following that elimination of the quota system. and this causes a lot of people to have fear and that's what the donald trumps of the world are exploiting. the fears of, listen, this is not the country that my father knew. no, it wasn't. and when your father was alive, it wasn't the country that his father knew. but there's no question that demographically, we've changed so dramatically and so quickly in the wake of the immigration format of 1964 that has led to a lot of fears of people. we've had divisions, we've had, you know, our basic division along racial lines. it is when the history of this country is looking at how we handled that is going to be the last line on our history. but also, can we adjust now in the 21st century to the dramatically changed demographics of the country is now a key question.

you asked me am i still optimistic? yes, i am still open mystic only if we say to one another, look, it is a changed country. and it's very important that we listened to one another. what i'm worried about is i don't talk to him that -- and there are plenty of people that support donald trump and people say it's not all this. we have to begin listening to one another, as difficult as that may be. >> you have an essay in your book about courage. today, there certainly seems to be a shortage of political courage in washington when it comes to each side looking at their own flaws and trying to actually impact change. and how do you think this moment -- do you find this moment particularly striking because of the absence of political courage? >> i do. and typically in washington, and you've made the point i'm not going to give a false

equivalency here, particularly on the republican side since they have most of the power. but the onus is on them to stand up in that courage. and i'm surprised, some days even shocked of how very, very few republicans would stand up and say, for example, on the alabama hurricane, folks, coming on. mr. president, this is ridiculous. stop it. there certainly has been a lack of courage. and we talk about being optimistic for the future. we're going to need all the courage we can muster. >> yes, we are. the book is what uniteds, reflections on patriotism. that you can very much for being on the show with us, for sharing this with us. >> thanks for having me. up neck, the tactic the trump administration is reportedly resorting though with iran now that threatening the country can with sanctions didn't work.

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sundays were made for football on xfinity. that's simple, easy, awesome. add the sports entertainment package for nfl redzone. click, call, or visit a store today to learn more. 45 past the hour. one of the things about the iran nuclear deal that president trump has constantly criticized president obama for is the cash payments. >> they're great negotiators. look at what they did to get the deal. look at what they did to john kerry. and to president obama. they're bringing plane loads of cash, big planes, boeing 757s coming in loaded up with catch. what kind of a deal is that? >> so now a new report reveals

the trump administration offered cash to tanker captains in a bid to seize iranian ships. a top u.s. diplomate you offered the captain of an iranian oil tanker $7 million on behalf of the united states to pilot a ship to a country that would impound the vessel on behalf of the u.s. that official, brian hook, who works for the trump administration as the u.s. representative for iran made the offer via email to the captain of the iranian vessel which is suspected of violating sanctions by carrying oil to syria. in his email to the captain, hook reportedly wrote, quote, with this money, you can ask any life you wish and be well off in old age. if you choose not to take this easy path, life will be much harder for you. those notes were sent just days before the u.s. imposed sanctions on the ship and the

captain. the vessel was previously impounded by the british navy of gibraltar and gibraltar later rejected a u.s. attempt to seize the ship. and it doesn't appear that this is a one-time occurrence. the financial times reports that hook emailed or texted about a dozen captains in recent months to scare mariners against aiding iran, evade sanctions. i just -- there were so many times reading this story where the entire room -- we have a studio full of people. everyone was shaking their head. that's where we are. >> it was hard to believe it actually has happened. >> watch him with -- >> what kind of amateur hour is going on at the state department? and even if this is actually the united states policy, which i have plenty to quibble with about the policy, why is it something that maybe another government agent is running point on instead of random emails being sent to a captain

from a high ranking state department diplomate. this seems like all the more reason we need to be covering what the actual policy of the trump administration is because this is not the makings of a strong national security. >> mike we'll pay you money to let us seize your ship and make us look strong. >> there is a piece scheduled for this sunday's "new york times," as lengthy of a piece as you're going to read in any american nood newspaper. it's a long, long piece. but brian hook plays a pivotal world in the piece as he is one of the people involved to try to make sure the valleys don't do a pre-septemberism strike in iran. and brian hook's role is pivotal. in the piece, it's explained to the president of the united states, the command ner chief,

donald trump, what brian hook is up to and what he's doing and the progress he's made and trump reportedly says to the person telling him about this, he says, who is brian hook? >> okay. >> oh, my okay. >> oh, my lord. coming up, our next guest has a lot to say about the business roundtable's latest announcement that corporate responsibility needs to extend beyond their shareholders. a top executive from pfizer joins us next on "morning joe." the weather's perfect... family is all together and we switched to geico; saved money on our boat insurance. how could it get any better than this? dad, i just caught a goldfish! there's no goldfish in this lake. whoa! it's pure gold. we're gonna be rich... we're gonna be rich! it only gets better when you switch and save with geico.

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♪ last month business roundtable an association of top executives redefined the purpose of a corporation. in a major shift from traditional ideology nearly 200 american ceos issued a statement arguing companies should no longer advance only the interests of shareholders. instead they should invest in their employees, protect the environment, and deal fairly and ethically with their suppliers. joining us now to talk more about this executive vice president and chief corporate affairs officer at pfizer, sally susman. how many employees does pfizer have? >> about a hundred thousand. >> okay. so how does this approach impact the way of doing business? >> what it is saying is

companies need to extend thinking beyond just shareholders to include really important stakeholders in our case our hundred thousand employees, patient groups, and others who rely on us. >> so responding to the business environment. >> this is not just a poly-anna statement. you talk about how it breaks your heart that young people don't want to get into corporations. po their view of large corporations and big business has changed. this actually, you hope, is a way to do what we had james mattis talking about, how you identify the most successful people to bring in to your team. you can still recruit the best and the brightest but you got to give them a reason. >> that's exactly, actually the most important part of this report. i think it will tell young people or women returning to the work force to take a second look at companies as a place that they might want to work because they're actually purpose driven places where they can have great careers and make a positive

difference. >> and young people are interested. they have their own ways, all on the phone by the way, but they're interested in philanthropy and being part of sort of making the world better and they have to change the way they look at going into the business world. >> the business roundtable statement was great on the surface. received a lot of applause and some snarky stuff on social media as you'd expect but each of these companies, big companies to small companies, most of them have boards. >> yes. >> the idea of turning a large company around with a board that's been there, many members for several years and everything, the degree of difficulty in that is, do you think it's under estimated? >> well, mike, you know, companies are led by boards, but boards are very smart people and they're savvy to what the world needs right now. i've worked for three companies, for nine ceos, sat in a lot of board rooms, and what i have found is a very astute,

sensitive group of people who want their companies to succeed and know that in order to succeed they need to deliver for their shareholders but they also need to be good participants in the communities in which they live and work. >> so, to be a good participant in the communities that they work, all of this sounds good to me. but does it translate into concrete, tangible effects? in terms of, say, livable wage? one of the ways we've been thinking about this shift from stakeholders to shareholders is the people working their behinds off and not making enough money to make ends meet. this is a nice statement but will this translate in terms of actually impacting the lives of folks who work for these companies? >> yes. it will impact the lives of the folks who work for these companies and the people who depend on these companies. you see companies making real commitments. walmart made a commitment this week about their, changing their

policy on the sale of ammunition. at my company, pfizer, we are going to be making a series of commitments to reduce healthcare disparities, making our companies in the long run stronger and better for their employees. >> at the level of salary? >> at the level of good jobs that are sustainable, companies that are growing and thriving. >> is this at odds at all with the business's capitalistic mission or do the two go hand in hand? >> this is an unambiguous defense of capitalism. i think of it as a contemporary form of capitalism, one that is perhaps more sustainable, more relevant to today, but it is absolutely pro capitalism. >> so your ceo, albert, who used to be a veterinarian by the way, which is great, so they look at it as sort of a shift from shareholder value. how do the shareholders feel about this? has there been any pushback? >> we've had no investor pushback. our shareholders and our owners

understand this is an "and" not an "or." we still have an acute obligation to deliver for our shareholders but as our ceo knows, you need to marry purpose and profits together. >> times are changing. sally susman, thank you so much. >> thank you, sally. >> you can read her piece which she wrote at know your value.com. your first piece about your personal life. >> yes. >> and that whole, incredible story is one of our top performing pieces. a great, great piece that you wrote that meant a lot to a lot of people, so thank you so much. >> thank you. >> final thoughts, joe? >> mike, real quickly? >> my final thought is my magic marker didn't work with trying to change 62 to 82 in 7th grade with my mother and didn't work with donald trump on the weather map. >> still, i can't get over the iran policy story. >> we need to talk about that more tomorrow. >> exactly. >> we're modeling how to have this conversation about race moving forward and we need to continue to do it.

>> so important and so important we need to get tim back and some other people. >> that was a good conversation today. >> it was. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. thanks so much, mika and joe. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is thursday, september 5th. here's what's happening now. hurricane dorian is not going quietly. in fact, it's gotten stronger as it moves up the east coast. this morning it is back to a category 3 storm as it slams into the carolinas, already flooding some areas including the historic city of charleston, and it is only going to get worse throughout the day. while people are hunkering down there, residents in the bahamas are just coming to grips with all that they have lost. that loss is staggering. the official death toll now at 20. the number is expected to go up as rescue workers pick through the devastation. at this point, more than 5,000 people are listed on social media as missing since the