no leverage that we have. >> thank you both. that is "all in" for this evening. rachel maddow starts right now. >> good evening, much appreciated. thanks for joining us this hour. his name was walter hickle. walter j. hickle was known as wally when he was a kid. born in kansas, grew up to be a golden gloves boxer. he struck out on his own to seek fortune in california. ultimately he made his way alone up to alaska. his obituary in "the new york times" after he died said that he started in alaska working as a bartender, then a carpenter, then he was an aircraft inspector. then he bought a half-finished house, sold it, bought two more houses, sold them, eventually he became a home builder in alaska. ultimately he opened a shopping center in alaska that included

the very first escalator in the entire state. what? stairs that move? except at that point alaska wasn't even a state yet. wally hickle was a key part of alaska lobbying to become a state. he started lobbying for that years before it finally happened in 1959. and then wally hickle became the governor of the new state of alaska seven years later in 1966. so wally hickle was one of those sort of only in america, incredible man of action success stories. culminating with him becoming very rich and becoming governor of his state. after serving as governor, he ascended still higher. he left alaska, came to washington, d.c., because president richard nixon named wally hickle to become part of

his cabinet. to become the new secretary of state the interior. he expected wally hickle to be a down the line pro-business pro-development, pro-drilling kind of guy. but wally hickle did his own thinking and ended up being sort of way too much of a mixed bag for nixon even right from the start. by the time wally i cwas into h tenure, nixon trulily regretted bringing hickle to washington in the first place. the relationship broke down entirely shortly after the kent state shootings when protesters against the vietnam war were shie shot and killed. that took an oppositional stance to the vietnam war and in a cardinal political sin, his letter to nixon was leaked to the press, and, therefore, to the public, before nixon ever

received it at the white house. ooh, ooh. hickle's letter said nixon was, quote, embracing a philosophy which appears to lack appropriate concern for a great mass of americans, our young people. regardless of how or any american might feel individually, we have an obligation as leaders to communicate with our youth and listen to their ideas and their problems. well, that letter was offensive enough to richard nixon that nixon soon fired him. and that was the end of wally hickle's tenure of u.s. secretary of the interior. at that time nixon was firing walter j. hickle, he was doing something really important when it came to the u.s. the government and the specifically the way the u.s. government works on issues that were totally relevant to hickle's cabinet agency, this agency run by the dreaded wally hickle, president nixon was then reorganizing the way the u.s.

government dealt with those kinds of auxiliaries department of the interior kinds of issues. in 1970, richard nixon was needle of creating a new federal agency called noaa. even though it was a new agency being ceded in 1970, the component part of weren't new. dating back to the weather bureau, which was founded in 1870 or the bureau of commercial fisheries, founded in 1871, parts of it been traced back to 1807, the survey of the coast, an awesome name for a governments function. all this stuff about the oceans and the land and the weather, it's really fundamental old stuff for the u.s. federal government. and there had been a few earlier efforts at reorganizing those sort of science-driven parts of the u.s. government, but by 1970

it was clear that the tame had come for a new umbrella agency. they would create noaa. obviously it would be part of the department of the interior, right? that is the part of our government that deals with natural sciences, stuff like land and sea and air. and that's where you think it would go, right? rationally, yes. but history is human, and humans are sometimes are small thinkers. and richard nixon hated wally hickle so much that i think the ideas that he didn't want to give him anything cool or good or shiny and new. so in 1970 under richard nixon, the newly formed national oceanic and atmospheric association was created not in the interior department. nixon needed to put it somewhere else because he didn't want to give it to hickle. so nixon somewhat inexplicably

decided noaa would be part of the commerce department. sure, why not? there's no reason for it to be in the commerce department, and there was no reason for it to be in the commerce department from the beginning, but that's what nixon did. >> if you're wondering what the genesis of this was, apparently it had something to do with president nixon being unhappy with his interior secretary for criticizing him about the vietnam war. and so he decided not to put noaa in what would have been a more sensible place. >> that was president obama in 2012 trying to kind of fix richard nixon's grudge 42 years down the road. president obama at that time was proposing that the weather service and all the other component parts of noaa should be put back where they arguably belonged in the first place. they should be part of the interior department, that's the part of our government that deals with this.

so rational argument from president obama and the omission. it was the kind of reorganization that would just make rational, taxonomic sense, right? that said, it did not fly. and noaa is still in the commerce department. and that is why on friday when it came time for the trump administration to come down heavy on the acting head of noaa, to tell the head of noaa, reportedly, that his job was on the line, forget the national weather service forecast, forget the science done at your agency, forget it. noaa instead needs back up president trump and put out a statement saving the president's face for political purposes. when it came time for the freaking weather service to get political orders to undo their science and instead prop up some random untrue utterance made by the president, when it came time to do that, now you know why, the cabinet secretary who had to shoulder that burden, the cabinet secretary who r0r89d made that call was slippers

himself, this guy, wilbur ross, the secretary of commerce of all people who, according to "the new york times" today, phones up the acting head of noaa on friday and told him that he and all the other top appointees would be fired unless they pull the out a statement disavowing the true and accurate statements of the national weather service to instead align themselves for closely with the false recent statements by the president. and that reported threat appears to have worked. quote, the secretary of commerce threatened to fire top employees after the agency's birmingham, alabama, office contradicted president trump's claim that hurricane dorian might hit alabama that led to an unsigned statement later that day by the noaa disavowing the office's own position that alabama was not at risk. the reversal caused widespread anger within the agency and drew criticism from the scientific

community that noaa, a division of the commerce department, had been bent to political purposes. according to three people familiar with his actions, commerce secretary wilbur ross phones the acting exterior of noaa from greece where the secretary was traveling for meetings and instructed dr. neil jacobson jacobs to fix the credit cards of the president. according to "the new york times," dr. jacobs objected to the demand but then was told the political staff at noaa would be fired including him if the situation was not fixed. he then personally participated in drafting the statement wilbur ross demanded and did as he was told, put out this statement undercutting his own employees and agency, which was accurate and correct and properly reported. and the response was, in fact, blistering. the scientist who is the chief operating officer of noaa said, quote, perhaps the darkest day

ever for leadership. don't know how they will ever look their workforce in the eye again. moral cowardice. he was the coo of noaa under president obama. the union that relates employees at the national weather service says, quote, i have never been so embarrassed by noaa. what they did is just disgusting. let me assure you, the hard working on employees at the national weather service had nothing to do with the utterly disgusting tweet sent out by noaa management. by sunday, yesterday, the national weather service sent an all-hands email to its entire workforce basically trying to, i think, preserve morale -- saturday, not sunday, and stand up for their own workforce in the face of this just really embarrassing fiasco. the all-hands email on saturday to national weather service satisfy said, quote, we want to assure you that we stand behind our entire workforce and the integrity of the forecast

process. we uphold the essential integrity of the entire forecast process as it was applied by all national weather service offices to assure public safety first and foremost with a"all" in all capital letters. today the head of the national weather service spoke at a weather conference that coincidentally was held in alabama, and it's interesting. you have the commerce secretary, department of commerce is the cabinet level agency, then noaa is the umbrella agency, and then the national weather service is within that. here's the head of the national weather service today speaking at this conference in the midst of this incredible, unprecedented, weird political pressure on that agency to lie to help the president, to undercut their own science and forecasts which is public needs to count on. i mean, in the midst of this incredible situation, we learned that the acting more of noaa objected but then went along with it. the weather service guy gets up

at the conference and mottles good behavior. makes clear that whatever pressure there has been under the leadership of that area, presumably on him, whatever the trump appointed leadership of noaa was willing to bow to, at the level of the national weather service at least, no, not having it. >> the government office needs to stop to ensure public safety, the same as all the national weather service offices were working toward at that time. the integrity of the forecast process was maintained by the birmingham office and across the entire national weather service. the entire enterprise, including the local media. so unlike, by asking -- and birmingham employees and the president, please stand and be recognized.

[ applause ] >> this is the head of the national weather service saying that what the birmingham, alabama, national weather service office did here was correct, the birmingham office did this to stop public panic to ensure public safety. the integrity of the forecast process was maintained. and then you see the standing ovation. that happened today. noaa is the overall agency who gets the call from the cabinet secretary who says you're going to be fired if you don't disavow your own science. the leadership at noaa went ahead and did that. that agency is now convulsed over that absolutely unprecedented impingment which is all they have at the end of the day. but the chief of the national weather service, which is a component part of that agency, the national weather service is

not having it and not going along with it. and you can see that from the standing ovation that the birmingham office got there today that he basically asked for, he himself got his own standing ovation at this weather conference today for having praised their integrity. basically saying, listen, they contradicted the president and they've been undercut by their own agency for doing so. but they did the right thing. they had integrity. the top scientific official at noaa, the top scientist has now announced that he will investigate what happened here and whether it violates the administrative order that governs the scientific integrity at noaa. quote, my understanding is that this sbefrpgs to contract the forecaster was not based on science but on external factors, including reputation and appearance. the content of this news releases is very concerning as it compromises the ability of noaa to convey life-saving information. if the public can't trust our

information, that specific danger arises. i have a responsibility to pursue these truths. i will. for his part, commerce secretary wilbur ross is not explicitly denying the reporting that he placed this call to the head of noaa on friday that resulted in noaa putting out this crazy statement undercutting the science of their own agency, but wilbur ross' office is denying that on that call he threatened to fire anyone. i mean, we'll see in terms of the chief scientific officer at noaa investigating this in terms of a matter of scientific sbechlgt we have also since learned the inspector general for the whole department of commerce is now going to investigate this matter, and there are now thunderous cries from multiple members of congress that wilbur ross should resign over this whole debacle. other than that, a pretty normal monday. it's almost easier today to talk

about what scandals aren't breaking today than to list the ones that are. today cnn had an incredibly damning exclusive report, which they had to themselves all day today. i should mention that just within the last hour, even though cnn had this exclusively all day, the crux has been matched by both nbc news and by "the new york times." but the basic story from all three outlets is the same. it's about the intelligence community in 2017 taking a dramatic step to protect an incredible important intelligence asset who was working for the u.s. government from inside the russian government. quoting from cnn which first broke the story, in a previously undisclosed secret mission in 2017, the u.s. successfully extracted from russia one of its highest level covert sources inside the russian government according to multiple trump administration officials with direct knowledge. the removal of the russian was driven in part by concerns that president trump and his administration repeatedly

mishandled classified intelligence and could contribute to supposing the source as a spy. the decision to carry out the extraction occurred soon after a may 2017 meeting which were trump discussed classified intelligence with the foreign minister and the russian ambassador. it was provided by israel that trump nevertheless blurted it out to the russians and blew that up. the disclosure to the russians by the president prompted intelligence officials to resign renew earlier discussions. knowledge of the russian covert source's existence was restricted. according to one source, there was no equal alternative inside the russian government as the source provided both insight and information on vladimir putin. the whole grounds, of course, on which all the conservative media and donald trump opposed hillary clinton's presidential campaign

was that she couldn't be trusted with classified information, right? because she had a private email server where she did some of her sapt work, even though there was no indication that had ever been hacked or compromised or that she had used it for actual classified information. but nevertheless, that means she can't get anywhere near the presidency. what the cnn report is saying and nbc news and "new york times," that as president, trump so egregiously mishandled classified information and in so doing destroyed highly sensitive foreign intelligence abrasions telling the russians about them, that u.s. intelligence decided that president trump might burn america's best source inside the russian government. he might expose that person and get that person killed. so they had to emergency ex-filtrate that person out of russia to save his or her life. not only does that tell you something about our president,

it also means u.s. intelligence no longer has that priceless source in the upper echelons of the russian government. on top of that, we're still getting more information about the bizarre story broken friday night at politico.com about u.s. military flights between alaska and iowa and maine flights coming from those states to the middle east have been stopping off at the president's scottish golf course on the way out and on the way back. the scotsman newspaper and the guardian newspaper in london already fleshed out a bunch of these details because they have been covering their own domestic scandal and controversy over the u.s. military suddenly doing this rapidly expanding amount of business with this random scottish airport. and the domestic embarrassment of that government-owned airport in scotland near the president's golf course being in business partnership with the president's resort. scottish government is really really, really, really anti-trump. and you're not going to win any votes in scotland by being

pro-trump. for the scottish government to own this airport that's doing all this business with the u.s. military is a domestic scandal of its own. for that government-owned airport to be linked to trump was a scandal of its own, and the guardian and the scotsman have been discovering that scandal on those terms. but this airport is suddenly getting a rapidly expanding amount of business, millions and millions and millions of dollars worth of business from u.s. military planes stopping there all the time. that airport has denied having a business relationship with the trump organization, at least when the scotsman newspaper was asking. that denial worked until the scotsman's reporter turned up this document that announces official partnership between the trump organization and that airport. so much for that airport denying that it had any official relationship with trump's business. in addition to the questionable

propriety of having u.s. military personnel stay overnight at the president's golf resort while on official military business, which the air force now says it is reviewing, apparently recognizing the apparent improceed pryty of such arrangement. these airmen, billing the taxpayers for it, right, the trump organization having an official business relationship with that particular airport alsomation it a big deal that the u.s. military has been rapidly upscaling the number of military takeoffs and landings and spending millions and millions and millions of dollars there all of a sudden to buy gas for the planes at commercial airport rates. thus propping up that business, propping up that airport more than any other stream of revenue coming into it. the president's golf resort needs that airport to stay open with the president in office, all of a sudden the military is doing tons of really lucrative business at that airport.

airport's staying open, good for trump's business. did i mention the airmen are also staying at trump's business while they're there? part of the scoop that politico had friday night is that in the u.s. house the oversight committee is now investigating that matter. the oversight committee, the foreign affairs and the intelligence committees have announced they're investigating what the president appears to be trying to do in ukraine. congress approved $250 million in military aid to ukraine to help ukraine stand up against russia. president trump has apparently intervened to block those funds from being disbersed. if he continues the funds will go away and ukraine won't get that money. "the washington post" is now reporting the $250 million is essentially being used to ex-tort ukraine with the trump administration conveying unofficially to ukraine that they won't that military aid at all unless the nation of ukraine provides help to president trump's re-election campaign in the form of some sort of investigation or maybe a

prosecution of joe biden or members of the biden family ahead of the 2020 election since that will help trump get re-elected. announced the new investigation into these allegations, committee chairman adam schiff, and elijah cummings said this. if the president is pressuring you choose, or leveraging its judicial system to serve the ends of the trump campaign, this would represent a staggering abuse of power, a boon to moscow, and a betrayal of the public trust. like i said, what isn't going on today? each individual one of these scandals would be the biggest to afflict any presidency, not just since nixon, but since presidents. and they're all happening, like, all at once. this is all today's news. the judiciary committee in the house today unveiled the grounds on which they are going to move forward with their impeachment

proceedings. they released their proposed rules and procedures for how they are going to investigate the president on multiple fronts with an eye toward potentially drawing up articles of impeachment during the course of this congress. it revealed those rules and procedures that they're going to vote on later on this week, the vote itself is likely to happen on thursday. honestly, there's been a lot of infighting among democrats as to whether they should start impeachment proceedings and when. they are now finally doing it. they're going to vote on thursday. honestly, their biggest problem might be that having waited this long to start these investigations, it's kind of hard to narrow it down in terms of what you might want to start with first. i mean, honestly, just the last -- today's news, where would you start in ? the vice chair of the judiciary committee joins us next. stay with us. emu & doug with this key to the city. committee joins us next. stay with us. committee joins us.

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we have breaking news for you. this came out in the past couple minutes. big picture as i mentioned at the top of the show, cnn was first to break this remarkable story today that they u.s. government had gone in 2017 and

ex-fill traded a high-level spy from inside russia. a covert operative who was operating within the russian government but reporting to u.s. intelligence agencies. it was basically an excellent intelligence asset for the u.s. inside the russian government. cnn reporting that this covert operative had access to vladimir putin, and that part of the reason for the extraction was concern in the intelligence community that president trump was repeatedly mishandling classified information, including during a meeting with high-level russian officials in the oval office in may of that year. the ex-filtration reportedly happened thereafter as an effort to save the source, to keep that source alive in case it was -- the source was burned by the trump administration. as i mentioned, "the new york times" and nbc news have confirmed the core of this story, but nbc has added a remarkable bit of reporting. i'll tell you their headline here. possible russian spy for cia, now living in washington area.

quote, a former senior russian official is living under u.s. government protection. snb nbc news is withholding the man's name, yet the former official who had a job with access to secrets was living openly under his crew, true name. a correspondent rang his doorbell. five minutes later a car parked next to the correspondent's car. the men who identified themselves as only friends of the russian asked what he was doing there. nbc news has not confirmed that the russian living in virginia fed the cia information about russian election interference, but he fits the profile of someone who would have been recruitable by american intelligence officials. the russian will likely be moved from the place he is currently living in the interest of keeping him safe say current and

former officials. joining us ken dilanian. ken, thanks for joining us on very, very short noichlt appreciate you making time. >> you bet, rachel, thanks. >> is the correspondent in this story you? >> it is, rachel, it is. it's me. >> so this is a former russian official living in virginia. you figured out who he is. basically you're able to describe him as somebody who might have been in position in the russian government to provide the cia the kind of information that's being reported here, even though you can't directly verify that he was the conduit? >> that's right. it's a bit frustrating because i can't even explain why we started looking at this person in the first place because officials are telling us those details would quickly lead to his exposure. but this was a former senior russian official who had access to vladimir putin who was working for the russian government and who, as of yesterday was living in a house

in the washington, d.c., suburbs. i went to that house, i knocked on the door. he wasn't home, but as you read there, five minutes later i was sort of accosted by a couple people that appeared to be agents of the u.s. government carefully monitoring that house. and, of course, we've now been asked by u.s. officials to withhold a lot of the details, including the name of this person. we can't report to our standard that this is the same cia asset that "the new york times" and cnn are talking about, but when you use a bit of logic, there aren't many officials the cia as cultivated as sources. in fact, there may have been only one during this period. so we can all use our own judgment about that. but what's clear and surprising, actually, is that this man is living in the washington, d.c., area in the open in his true name. >> i mean, you talk about the drama of you knocking on his door, he's not there, you get back in your vehicle and then these young men who you believe

may have been u.s. government employees keeping an eye on him pull up right next to to you start asking you what you're doing. and it's clear they were johnny on the spot in terms of watching his house, but you did make it up to the door. so when i think about what happened to people who are perceived by the russian government to be traitors, people who are perceived to be spies, you look at the assassination attempts we've seen around the globe, the fact that you were able to get up to the door suggests they're not watching him all that close. >> that's right. when i asked both u.s. government officials and former officials who worked on these problems about that what works they say is, look, it's probably not a secret to the russians that this person is here. when he left russia, you know, it became clear to them that he had been working for the u.s. but what they don't want and what they think happened in skripal is to taunt putin with the idea that here's this turncoat, here's this former russian official who spied for the cia living in the united states. so they sort of feel there's a

measure of safety. they don't expect the russians to come over and assassinate him until unfortunately he's discovered by the media in the world and we start writing about him. that essentially pokes the bear. that's why they're now more worried about his safety than they were 48 hours ago, rachel. >> and that reporting, obviously, you're able to describe him living in virginia under his real name and all these other details. but essentially that poking the bear started with cnn and nbc reporting out his existence, the ex-filtration. as the media was going to figure him out and it was going to become a story, thing were going to get dangerous for him. >> that's right. and i fear even though we are withholding details and acceding to the wishes of u.s. officials who say they believe his life could be at risk, it isn't that hard to find him and others are going to work to do that. in the climate we live in eventually it will come out. but there's now time for the

u.s. government to move him and his family to a is different location. >> ken dilanian, nbc news correspondent and intrepid knocker-on of doors. thanks for joining us on short notice. the vice chair of the judiciary committee will be with us tonight. interesting news on a story we've been covering on and off for a couple of years now that you are going to want to hear the update on. stay with us. to get your windshield fixed. >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... she chose safelite. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time... [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: ...so she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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representatives today voted almost unanimously, 410-4 to grant broad subpoena powers to the house judiciary committee in its inquiry into the impeachment of the president. only once before has the house taken such a vote in the matter of impeachment of president andrew johnson, and 99% of the members voted for the unqualified subpoena powers. >> historic vote, february 6th, 1974. had it only happened once before in the history of the republic in the administration of andrew johnson. after nixon, it wouldn't happen again until october, 199 #, when the republican-led house decided to impeach president bill bill clinton. now the judiciary committee is about to do it again for the fourth time ever. announcing today they're going to vote to set the rules for their own impeachment inquiry into president donald trump. joining us is mary gay scanlon. thank you so much for being here. appreciate your time.

>> thank you. >> so we have heard the chairman of your committee, chairman nadler, say that the impeachment inquiry is under way. but this is going to be a formal vote. how will this vote change what's happening going forward? >> we spent a great deal of time spinning our wheels trying to get hold of the evidence underlying the mueller report, trying to get hold of the mueller report itself. we've gone to court to do that now, but our investigation has to expand. we're trying to move by the end of the year to determine whether we're going to file articles of impeachment or not. and there are a number of things beyond the mueller report that we need to look at. we need to look at whether there was corruption in the election, we need to look at, you know, the president's profiting off his public position, and we need to look at whether he's abusing his powers through things such as offering pardons to people to impede the investigation or cover up wrongdoing that he has ordered. >> in terms of that sort of time

frame, i mean, part of the way that we have to think about how much time you and your committee will need is to imagine the scope of things you are going to look into. i mentioned at the top of the show half joking that it may be hard to figure out where to start. obviously the mueller report on obstruction of justice gives you ten different things to look into, the sorts of issues you were just describing, dangling pardons, profiting from his office, other abuses of power, even just today's news would give you five or six different places to start. do you think you'll have enough time to focus on what is going to be the most potent issues by the end of the year? >> i think we're going to have to. i mean, it's a matter of constitutional integrity, it's a matter of, you know, the future of our country and the separation of powers. so we're just going to have to make the time to do it. it is really interesting, as you noted, there are so many things to look at. personally i've been trying to focus on the things that were outlined by the authorize of our constitution and it was things

like misuse of pardons, bribery or corruption in an election, being under the sway of a foreign government, profiting off your public position. what the founding fathers didn't expect is we would have a president who would try to tick all of the boxes. >> i know you haven't voted on it yet, but there's a provision that allows lawmakers to review grand jury material in classified settings. this is material that was presented by witnesses to a grand jury, usually that's treated very -- with a lot of respect for its secrecy. how important is that and do you expect that's going to be key in terms of the central issues that you're going to focus on? >> i think it's going to be very key, as bob mueller made clear when he testified, he didn't make prosecutorial recommendations with respect to obstruction of justice because he viewed it as possible turned

rules of engagement under the department of justice. we saw a similar thing with respect to the campaign finance fraud and the payment of hush money. also, that southern district of new york investigation and grand jury didn't proceed with charges against the president who has only been identified as individual number one in that proceeding, but we need to look at this whole array of evidence that, under the constitution, they say they can't do anything about it, but as bob mueller said, that's congress' job. >> vice chair of the house judiciary committee. it was also announced that cory lewandowski is going to appear next week. is that going to be an open or closed hearing? >> as i understand it, if he shows up, it's going to be an open hearing. >> aha, thank you very much. i speak it in at the end there. it's actually a very -- it's bad practice in terms of an

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can tow up to 5000 lbs and has an epa-estimated range of 500 miles per tank. it's the greatest exploration vehicle of all time. as i mentioned to congresswoman scanlon a our cable show turned 11 years old yesterday. thank you to everybody for the nice notes. we have been around long enough to have a shorthand for lots of things on the staff. for instance, we call this next video clip the beer water clip. it is the instantly recognizable symbol of the lead poisoning of flint, michigan. the reason the color is of light beer is because the pipes are corroded. bits of the pipes are inside the water, changing the color and making it toxic to drink. when michigan's republican governor rick snider took away flint's local democracy and his

state managers ordered the city of flint to start drinking from the flint river, they didn't take the necessary steps to prevent the river water from corroding the pipes in the city. that's how flint got poisoned, toxic lead ended up in the bodies of the people in flint. there was also another problem with the water in flint. the same conditions that sent lead gushing into the town's drinking sunglasses sippy cups and baby bottles, those same conditions releases perfect for growing the bacteria behind a deadly form of pneumonia. it's a water-born disease known as legionnaires'. in january 2016, governor rick snider revealed that flint had experienced a spike in cases of legionnaires' while fingerprint was drinking from a that corrosive river water. the state settled on 12 as the official death toll. that's been the official count ever since, likely connected to the change in flint water, 12

deaths. since then, reporters and scientists have grappled with this fatal aspect of the flint water crisis and whether it accounted for all thatched. in january 2011, bridge magazine in michigan used state data to compare the last time flint had good water to the two years it drangs from the river. were there additionally deaths in the years with the bad water? yes, many. bridge magazine found dozens of additional pneumonia deaths during the bad-water years. now a team of reporters who spent months going through death records by hand looking for records of anyone who died of pneumonia while flint was drinking from that river. they took that data to epideem eologists in atlanta. they asked those outside experts to take a look. >> after running the numbers, the team accounted there had been about 70 more pneumonia deaths than normal. >> that means that there could have been a little bit more than 70 and there could have been fewer. however, the most plausible

number that we came up with for our models was 70. >> this is definitely consistent with the idea that there were some legionnaires' cases that did not get diagnosed not get i in the official count for the outbreak. it's likely that the legionnaires outbreak was bigger than that reported by official authorities. >> physicians had the higher level of awareness about the legionnaires disease outbreak earlier than they did, it's possible that that could have ultimately led to fewer cases and fewer deaths due to legionnaires. >> the best number they came up with 70. and that last point is key. if the doctors had been warned to watch out for legionnaires, fewer people might have died of it, and a lot of people were dying in flint at that time. this new documentary from "frontline" is a second report done by a different team using different data and different methodology to reach the conclusion there were dozens of

unexplained deaths from pneumonia during the flint water crisis. the most likely number according to frontline is 70, 70 people dead. there is of course a lot we don't know. the water switch coincided with an uptick in the flu, and maybe that's what caused more people in flint to get pneumonia and die and not legionnaires from the water. maybe it was just a coincidence. who can say. but flint is now more than five years into this crisis. now with a new report of 70 unexpected deaths, any one of which may have been caused by what is in that water, how many people really did die as a result of what the state government did five years ago in flint? does anybody face fitting consequences for any of it, even for the 12 deaths the state acknowledges, let alone the dozens that seem likely? in a case like flint, what would justice look like? hold that thought. ot of life into our subaru forester. (dad) it's good to be back. (mom) it sure is. (mom vo) over the years, we trusted it to carry and protect the things that were most important to us.

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yesss, i'm doing it all. the water. the exercise. the fiber. month after month, and i still have belly pain and recurring constipation. so i asked my doctor what else i could do, and i said yesss to linzess. linzess treats adults with ibs with constipation or chronic constipation. linzess is not a laxative, it works differently. it helps relieve belly pain and lets you have more frequent and complete bowel movements. do not give linzess to children less than 6, and it should not be given to children 6 to less than 18, it may harm them. do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe.

if it's severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. other side effects include gas, stomach area pain, and swelling. i'm still doing it all. the water. the exercise. the fiber. and i said yesss to linzess for help with belly pain and recurring constipation. ask your doctor.

abby ellis is part of the documentary called "flint's deadly water." they uncovered 70 unexpected deaths from pneumonia during the time of the flint water crisis, raising the questions whether those deaths should be included in the legionnaires' outbreak that is likely connected to that crisis. ms. ellis, thanks for being here. i really appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. >> officially, the death toll attributed to legionnaires' and pneumonia is linked to the flint water crisis is a dozen. >> right. >> the statistical analysis you guys have been able to do in terms of medical records suggests the number is dozens,

more like 70. >> correct. >> how much of this is correlation? how close can you get to causation? >> so you know, what we found is we went through all the death certificates in the city of flint during the time of the outbreak, and we commissioned this team of epidemiologists to determine whether these deaths are statistically significant and whether or not they coincided with the outbreak. there is no way of knowing who or if any of them may have died of an undiagnosed case of legionnaires' disease. but what we do know is there was an excess of 70 deaths, pneumonia deaths during the outbreak of legionnaires' disease, and in certain pockets of the city we found confirmed cases of legionnaires' disease in the same neighborhood, confirmed pneumonia deaths. in one neighborhood we have a mile long, we've got three cases of legionnaires' and six pneumonia deaths. >> wow. >> that is consistent with the notion that, you know, some of these cases of pneumonia may

have been undiagnosed case of legionnaires'. >> one of the things i think has gripped the country about what happened in flint is not just the tragedy of the city being lead poisoned and what that means for the kids there. this prospect of legionnaires' associated deaths makes it all that much more stark, and there is this issue of the government's own behavior here. i am struck in your documentary about the prospect that doctors knowing to look for this might have been the difference between people being alive today and being dead. >> that's right. >> that they needed to know that this was something they should be screening for. >> right. so not every antibiotic is effective against legionella. so doctors and health care providers have to know there is an outbreak in order for them to test for it. otherwise you might just show up to the hospital and you have symptoms of pneumonia, and they'll give you a basic antibiotic and it won't work and you'll continue to get sick and you might die. so the medical community being made aware very early on after the first case, the second case is crucial in order to thwart the outbreak.

and in flint we see that we spoke to doctors who didn't know that there was an outbreak until january of 2016, over a year and a half after the outbreak began when the governor announces it at this press conference. >> remarkable. abby ellis, director of the new "frontline" documentary "flint's deadly water" which you can watch everywhere tomorrow when it airs on pbs. thank you so much for doing this work and thanks for helping us understand it. remarkable reporting. >> thanks for having me. >> we'll be right back. stay with us. e right back stay with us >> teacher: let's turn in your science papers. >> tech vo: this teacher always puts her students first. >> student: i did mine on volcanoes. >> teacher: you did?! oh, i can't wait to read it. >> tech vo: so when she had auto glass damage... she chose safelite. with safelite, she could see exactly when we'd be there. >> teacher: you must be pascal. >> tech: yes ma'am. >> tech vo: saving her time... [honk, honk] >> kids: bye! >> tech vo: ...so she can save the science project. >> kids: whoa! >> kids vo: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace ♪ liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, hmm. exactly. so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh...

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♪ ♪ thanks for being with us on what has been just a remarkable pinball multiball frenzy of a day in the news. let's hope for a calmer day tomorrow, given that it's going to start with a status conference in the mike flynn case, i doubt it's going to be a normal day, but anything could happen. we'll see you again tomorrow night. now it's time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening. >> at the end of the hour, i'm going to go to london to a member of parliament who is really eloquent on everything that's been happening there. historic is the word we keep using every, i don't know, 20 minutes. >> well done, my friend. >> thank you, rachel. well, i follow exactly one