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ar-15. your ak 47. >> msnbc's live coverage of decision 2020 continues right now. >> welcome to msnbc's special post debate coverage. we have a texas size panel joining us to break down everything that happened in tonight's debate in houston. on the campus of texas southern university. the largest historically black university in the country. the top ten candidates went head to head in the most anticipated match-up yet. and they didn't pull any punches. starting with that 2 by 4 that julian castro took to joe biden on health care.

barack obama's vision was not to leave 10 million people uncovered. he wanted every single person in this country covered. my plan would do that. your plan would not. >> they do not have to buy in. they do not have to buy in. >> you just said that. you just said that two minutes ago. you just said two minutes ago that they would have to buy in. you said they would have to buy in. >> if you qualify for medicaid -- >> are you forgetting what you said two minutes ago? are you forgetting already what that accusation that they would have to buy in and it does appear to be incorrect. here's what biden actually said. >> my health care plan does significantly cut the cost of the largest out of pocket pay. it is $1,000. you would be able to get into anyone who cannot afford it gets automatically enrolled. guess what? of the 160 million people who like their health care now, they can keep it. if they don't like it, they can leave. >> and this is the first debate

where front-runner joe biden had come face to face with his closest rivals. progressives bernie sanders and elizabeth warren. their differences? they were on full display. >> let's be clear. i've actually never met anybody who likes their health insurance company. i've met people who like their doctors. people who like their nurses. people who like their pharmacists. i've met people who lying their physical therapists. what they want is access to health care. and we need to be clear about what medicare for all is all about. >> let us be clear, joe. in the united states of america, we are spending twice as capita. >> americans don't want to pay twice as much as other countries and they guarantee health care to all people. >> joining me now, chief public affairs officer from moveon.org.

democratic strategist and former director paid media for hillary for america joel payne. columnist for the daily beast, jonathan altar. republican strategist mike murphy. and politics editor at the root doc and msnbc political contributor, jason johnson. i'm going to start with you, jason. on that, julio castro decision to come for joe biden. it was obviously a strategy from your point of view, was it effective or did it lay an egg? >> he had to do something, joy. i predict that either corey or beto or castro would do the john kasich suicide pact. i'm going for the front-runner. i'm going to take him down. it is the only way he can bring attention to himself. >> i thought even more critical than saying, oh, you're not covering enough people. there can be only one. i am the legacy of barack obama. i thought that was a really bold

statement. what it does is try to get people to focus on, what does julio castro really represent? we know what harris represents. he did a good job putting the focus on him. will it move the numbers? no. it did show that he's still fighting in this race and he's not going to allow himself to disappear off into the sunset with the rest of the bottom tier candidates. this is julio talking about, they're both from the obama administration. here they are. >> you require them on opt in and i would not require them to opt in. they would automatically be enrolled. i'm full fig the legacy of barack obama and you're not. >> yeah. so jason, i wonder if, president obama had a much better debate. everybody figured out they ought to love on the former president

and they did that. is the fight really over who represents the obama legacy, is that a relevant fight to base voters? >> it is at this point if you're castro. he has nothing else to say what he's doing. he's not the most dynamic. he's not the most interesting. he's not someone who has a story any more compelling than mayor pete or corey booker or anybody else. he has to say i'm the guy who can bring change and diversity moving forward. i thought it was an effective strategy. at the end of the day, i think this is the critical thing to remember. you had two sets of requirements going into this debate. your corey bookers, your pete buttigiegs, then your top two, biden, warren and sanders. look. i can prove i'm electable. and senator harris trying to figure out what she would do in the middle and that's why she said i'm past this debate. for the different tiers, i

thought castro did a good job. >> let me come to the table here. should candidates be fighting over his legacy in a democratic debate? >> well, i think the reason why castro did it, pretty much what jason just said. he needed something to do. you have to remember, castro, the name i.d. is not there. people don't really know who he is. and i think it was an opportunity to say look at me. i was part of the obama administration. and here's what i am doing. so i think that's what that was. i don't think there was anything else there except to say, you're not the only one. look at me. i'm part of that obama

administration. i have to till, that part was interesting. okay. good for him. the attack on joe biden in that ageism thing. we saw eric swalwell do that in the first debate and look where he ended up. that was not a smart move. the thing about castro. i think he has brought in some really substantive, racial, talking about racial issues. that moment, i think it will hurt him. >> let's play anita dunn. i'll age myself by saying do i remember her. she's a veteran politico. >> i do, too. >> you're a baby. you don't remember. i appreciate that. >> do you think secretary castro intentionally land ad low blow there in terms of raising his forgetfulness? i think secretary castro who likes to talk about learning from history clearly did not

learn from the first two debates that you know, taking personal cheap shots at vice president biden doesn't work out that well. particularly because it was factually inaccurate. many reporters in the course of the debate have pointed out that what castro said simply was not true. >> let me to go joel. you've worked with the hillary campaign. you have to eventually try to combat the front-runner. did that shot in your view seem too cheap? >> it might be a good case of good strategy. i agree that secretary castro needed to do something. here's the problem. he essentially kind of almost created a shield around joe biden for the rest debate. he set the parameters so aggressively on what he said about biden and his forgetfulness and the gaffes on the trail. he almost gave biden a pass for the rest of the debate.

so i think it kind of protected biden from any other attacks in the debate. so in a way it back fired on castro and worked in joan's favor. >> let me put mayor pete buttigieg basically saying, enough. >> this is why the debates are becoming unwatchable. this reminds everybody of what they cannot stand about washington. scoring points against each other. poking at each other and telling each other that, my plan, look. >> that's called the democratic primary election. that's called an election. that's an election. you know? this is what we're here for. it's an election. >> a house divided cannot stand. >> let me go to you. >> i wonder from the point of view of republicans looking for this, never trump republicans shopping for a candidate. in a sense, is joan helped by having other people attack him and appearing in that sense to

be sympathetic as theville of said attacks? >> no. i don't think it is a calculation for never trump republicans. castro made history. he came in with a dying presidential campaign at 1%. not really much of a factor. he managed to do this evel knievel strategy. i think he blew up his vice presidential chances. because joe biden is the front-runner. he's the most popular candidate. and calling him senile on national tv is a cheap shot and at this time second time he's done something that helps donald trump. he pinned everybody down on decriminalizing border crossings. all the hands went up and the republicans were all grabbing that vi for later. so castro, i think, wins the not helping award tonight. and i don't think, he got notoriety but the wrong kind. my guess is he won't make it to

christmas. >> the same to you. the thing about joan. if you're going on launch an attack against the front-runner, you have to keep in mind how other people feel about the front-runner. it is a difficult move to try to eat into his lead. still keep in mind if he's generally liked. >> it was a stupid thing for him to do. and i agree with mike. i think he blew his chance to be vice president. democrats don't want that kind of thing this year. they just don't. and it is like there were republicans were when ronald reagan said, the 11th commandment. don't attack other republicans. you can go after each other on policy. they want a vigorous debate on the future of the country. but once you make it personal, you electrocute yourself. >> and the difficulty, an attack that seems ageist, more than one person is in joe biden's age

group. >> it's not just age. it is anything that feels personal. democrats want to be united this time. they don't want their differences exploited by the republicans. you get out there doing something that, everybody is a pundit now. everybody watching is wondering, are the republicans going to be able to turn it into a talking point? they don't want candidates who do that. >> you know who is very, very focused on one opponent and one only. kamala harris. >> we've got to send a message to mitch mcconnell. we can't wait until one of us gets in the white house. we have to pass those bills right now to get this done. liberty mutual customizes s doe your car insurance,

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i wanted to commend him for how well he's spoken, the sadness of what happened in his home town of el paso. >> beto, god love you for standing so courageously in the midst of that tragedy. >> by the way, the way beto handled, excuse me for saying that. congressman -- >> beto is good. >> understand those parents, to

understand the heart ache. >> the democrats were heavy on praise for beto o'rourke for supporting his community of el paso. our panel is back with me. let's may the moment that beto o'rourke talked about very bluntly what he would like to do on gun reform. take a listen. >> if it is a weapon designed for a battlefield, if it shreds everything inside your body because it was designed to do that to bleed on a battlefield and not be able to get up and kill one of our soldiers. when we see that being used on children. in odessa, i met a mother of a 15-year-old girl who was shot by an ar-15. that mother watched her bleed to

death over the course of an hour because so many other people were shot by that ar-15 in odessa and midland, there were not enough ambulances to get to them in time. hell yes. we're going to take your ar-15. your ak-47. >> our panel is back with me. i want to put up for you what a texas state recommendive named briscoe cane tweeted in response to what beto o'rourke said about taking people's ak-47s and ar-15s. essentially saying my ar-15 is waiting for you. a rather threatening sounding tweet. which kind of passion will move the public more? the kind of passion you heard from beto o'rourke, talking about the fear that kids have to go to school, to the movies, or some guy that's a state representative tweeting, my ar-15 is waiting for you. that doesn't exactly sound -- i don't know.

your thoughts. >> well, beto found his message tonight. historically, maybe we're in a new era. we won't know until people vote. but gun politics are very tricky. there's an overwhelming national consensus for some gun legislation like background checks. there is a ma rt jo for ideas like banning large magazines or rifles that can shoot a lot of military ammunition. but actually confiscating? having the government take guns back? historically that's been a huge political loser. so i'm pretty sure beto won't run statewide in texas on that platform. it was interesting watching amy klobuchar who i thought had the best debate of her career. she was for voluntary buybacks. not confiscation. she always has her eye on the general election. it might not help her in the

primary. but beto's position is at least traditionally, a very dangerous position to take for a democratic nominee in the general election. >> to put a slight twist on that, beto o'rourke has said, he's talking about buybacks. he isn't talking about going to people's homes. >> but manner to. >> what he was doing was he was resetting the goalposts in a very significant way. whatever happens to his campaign. the politics of guns are changing fast in this country. the reason that for decades, the nra got its way, they felt more strongly about it. and their people did than the liberals. even if they were in the majority on this. there were a lot of issues they cared about more and there was no intensity. now you have this intensity.

on this confiscation issue, it sounds like a third rail. there is a deep love of the gun buried in large parts of american culture. but the about a zook a argument, the tank argument, the tommy gun argument, is a really convincing one. it is not left field to own a tommy gun or to drive a tank down your street. so why should it be legal to have these weapons of war? and i think it might be, it sounds like a strange comparison. it might be like gay marriage. where the politics can change very, very rapidly. >> and i want to go to you. i think that's the case. particularly among young people who are having to do these drills in school. and i thought it was really interesting that beto focused specifically on ak-47s and ar-15s which is the weapon of choice for mass shooters. very difficult to argue for the

suburban voting mom that there is a reason why someone should have an ak-47 and walk around with it in walmart. >> i have to tell you, gun gloat and race beto have been fantastic. he's been absolutely candid. what really works with american politics, it worked with barack obama. sometimes you say something a little extreme. if you're passionate about it, the american people will become attracted to it. i was so happy to hear, whether or not it is my politics, it was so nice to hear a democrat not dance around this issue. yeah, i'm taking your guns. i'm tired of seeing people get shot up in walmarts. the people who are dying right now, the people who are afraid in the suburbs, they want to hear somebody do something. even if they don't think everything get away with it, they want to hear that level of passion. at the end of the day when we get to a general election, i don't think beto will be the nominee or on the ticket.

the kind of american who is worried with the government marching is not voting for a democrat anyway. >> and look at elizabeth warren. i think guts down in politics. people like someone who is make a short answer. the problem that the nra actually controls certain politicians. >> wave congress beholden to the gun industry. and unless we're willing to address that head on, and roll back the filibuster, we're not going to get anything done on guns. >> this is very rare, i'm starting to see democrats make the connection between the things they want to do and the person in the way which is the senate majority leader. >> absolutely. i spent my time in the senate.

i want to go back to something jonathan said, talking about setting the left flank on gun control. you're so right on that. it reminds me of the 2008 cycle and health care in 2008. and we know this very closely. we work on the john edwards campaign. john and elizabeth edwards set a very aggressive left progressive flank on herring. and that pushed the entire field including barack obama, including hillary clinton, that pushed the field to the left. and that hated the foundation for obamacare, for frankly the debate that we're seeing played out on obamacare in the first quarter of this debate. so i think it is important. what jonathan is talking about. >> later we have to talk about it. it just takes guts to talk around impeachment. weird that that did not come up tonight. up next, the topic of race relations was a major point. the candidates focused on one person whom they held to blame for the decline of it. that would be donald trump. >> i plan on focusing on our

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they said do you think trump is responsible for what happened? well, look. obviously he didn't pull the trigger but he's certainly been tweeting out the ammunition.

>> kamala harris weighing in on the mass shooting in el paso. meanwhile, candidates took criminal justice issues. kamala harris and amy klobuchar defended their records as prosecutors. >> the power. why didn't you try to effect change then? >> there have been many distortions of my record. let me be very cheer. i made a decision to back prosecutor for two reasons. one, i've always want to protect people and keep them safe. and second, i was born knowing about how this criminal justice system in america has worked in a way that has been informed by racial bias. and i can tell you extensively about the experiences i and my family members have personally had. but i made a decision that if i was going to have the ability to reform the system, i would try to do it from the inside. >> the achu legal director in

minnesota said you showed no interest in racial justice. do you wish now that you had done more? >> that's not my record. i am proud of the work our staff did. 400 people in the office. the cases that came to us, the community that came to us, they said there was no justice for their little kids. >> joining us now to discuss, the editor of above the law.com. contributor to the nation as well. the co-host of the podcast, unredacted, and former deputy stand secretary of state, rick tyler and msnbc political analyst, and the president and ceo and msnbc contributor and you happen to be mtk in houston. i want to come to you first. give us the feeling in the room. >> code names! >> it's 1:00 in the morning. we won't tell anyone. >> so in the room, it seemed that beto o'rourke got a huge response when he talked about race the way he is so good at

doing. it seems that moment that we just heard from kamala harris resonated in the room. who resonated in the race about criminal justice? >> beto o'rourke. i have to say when every candidate start to talk about it, they acknowledged, talking about race or gun reform. they acknowledged his leadership in el paso. when he, he took it humbly. i think he was surprised by the warmth that he was, that he received specifically on that. it is an acknowledgement. he was the first one to call it what it was. it wasn't on the debate stage. it was a welcome. you cannot treat the source of the cancer if you can't say it out loud and he did that. overall, the whole audience was very tuned to what people were saying. i was impressed by amy klobuchar, how she was able to unpack her own accomplishments. and i could tell the crowd was

quite interested in: it was so new, so fresh, especially if texas, that was something that really hit home. >> let me play another moment from beto. his bluntness, that is a thing. >> we have a white supremacist in the white house and he pose as mortal threat on people of color all across this country. >> and elie, that is something you would not normally hear from a president tension candidate. >> that was when the people in my house, my mom and my wife. that's when we got off our couch and started to chap. beto talks a great game. he doesn't have the long record that some of these others have. harris has to defend the record. i thought klobuchar got it for the first time. i'm surprised she has not

gotten. one of the things, i wish all the candidates had done a better job. i thought they all bungled the latino questions. right? they were trying to defend obama. we all realized after the last one that was bad. which candidate has a vision for latino americans in this country that is something more than we're going to open the locks on the tancages. which one has a vision for had a tino americans who are under attack by this administration, by the mortal danger that beto talked about. who will do something for that community that is bigger than simply refusing to or te ing tt in the future. they're the quickest growing minority. if you change the latino vote

from about 66%, where obama was, where hillary was. if you get latinos to start voting like african-americans, trump loses 49 states. so i think it would be useful for them to have a more wholistic message. >> including who willian castro? i thought he was the one person, is literally who looks like the people being targeted in a lot of these shootings and said that. >> a shooter drove ten hours inspired by this president to kill people who look like me. people who look like my family. white supremacy is a growing threat to this country and we have to root it out. i was the first to put forward a police reform plan. we won't have any more la kwan or michael browns or pamela

turners or balancer scotts or sandra bland if you're from the houston area. we need to root out race i. they need a leader to match that. >> i guess the question would be, was that an opportunity to really highlight black lives matter that could have been expanded to talk more about his own community? we were talking that latinos. in reality, it is the direct threat donald trump has done to the latino community. just in the month of august, right after the shooting. american citizens were caught in that dragnet.

he's done 13 policies. that is conversation that's we're not having because we still leave very much in a binary culture. we talk about race. it is always black and white. right now the cancer is eating up the latino community. he is inspiring a group of individuals to hundred us down. the reason you have so many texans, republican, independent or liberal. the reason they're so interested in some sort of gun reform is because this sense of injustice and fear that is rising up in the community among our friends and our allies is very real. everything right now, when it come to the had a teach over experience, it is always caged through this idea and lens of immigration. here in texas, you have families who have been here four generations. we work with so many who say we

didn't move. the border moved us. until we have that acknowledgement that we are part of this history, it will be really difficult to bring people in. >> including the castro family, by the way. mayor pete buttigieg made a blunt comment on race. i want to play it now. take a listen. >> do you think people who support president trump is racist? >> anyone supporting this is rate of. >> you know, buttigieg, i would say, the centrist of the candidates up there. he is very sober, serious fellow. if even he is acknowledging the racism, not just among trump but his supporters, what does that do to the race? >> i think for the general election if he were the nominee.

>> it depends. i'll glad they're talking about race. it's amazing that here we are talking about race all these years on. racism may always be with us. it does need to be rooted out and i'm glad they talked about it on the teenage. look. it all depends, right? so if republicans sort of get the idea that we're supporting racist policies. we see voter segments already leaving donald trump. they took a risk on him. they're mostly suburban women. it is more than that. we'll see how it develops. for hillary clinton it was

always a puzzle. she had to talk about republican voters. she got caught in a, you're damning them. it becomes difficult to people them away ideologically from what he's doing. if what he's doing is racism, what do you say about the folks cheering him on? >> it's a great point. >> in addition to hillary clinton in 2016 making her comment about basket of deplorables, which i think she had not said at the time. it turns out she was dead on. i think he said with guns and bibles. here you have a real problem in that, you know, when i disagreed with barack obama, it was on syria. maybe one or two other things. could i do that because it wasn't an indictment on me. it was a policy difference.

they have to acknowledge what they don't like in him. they have to see it in themselves. it is very different when someone says, i don't really like the president because he made this policy decision as opposed to, oh, i don't like this president because i voted for him. i wonder if i'm a racist. i don't know if those are the voters democrats need to win over. you and i are talking about what's happening in the bhams. we have people denied entry of if that's okay with you, i don't think you're a winnable voter no matter what changes under donald trump. >> i think that's right. i think there are some real

realities. many of us have been saying that donald trump is a racist, a bigot for some time now. we've been seeing it at least cynic 2011 when he was doing birtherism. and people didn't listen. we saw it when he jumped into the race. now we're going in year three. if you don't look at what he tweets, who he's going after, and the people in the bahamas, we did it for the haitians in 2010 after the earthquake, then you have to look deep inside yourself. he does racist things. >> now you have these candidates on the democratic side being very blunt about it. all right. we'll come back with more as the democratic candidates were taking aim at trump. a city he referred to as rodent

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after the last debate, many of the 2020 dems were criticized for criticizing obama more than trump. >> there is enormous opportunities once we get rid of donald trump. >> it goes without saying that we must and will defeat trump. >> the most dangerous president in the history of this country. >> we have a white supremacist in the white house and he poses a mortal threat to people of color all across this country. >> people ask me in el paso, them, do you think trump is responsible for what that? i said, well, look. obviously he didn't pull the trigger. but he's certainly been tweeting off the ammunition. >> i am the opposite of donald

trump. he says build a wall. i'm going on say, come to america. >> the president has no strategy. i remember president trump said he would like to see me making a deal with xi jinping. i would like to see him making a deal with xi jinping. is it just me or baltimore supposed to happen in april? >> donald trump on trade policy. he reminds me of that guy in the wizard of oz. when you pull back the curtain, it is a really small dude? >> a really small dude. the thing that did not come up strangely enough, impeachment. r. it's going ok? great. now i'm spending more time with the kids. i'm introducing them to crab. crab!? they love it. so, you mentioned that that money we set aside. yeah. the kids and i want to build our own crab shack. ♪ ♪ ahhh, you're finally building that outdoor kitchen. yup - with room for the whole gang. ♪ ♪ see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you.

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simple. easy. awesome. the democratic candidates covered a lot of ground for tonight's debate. one thing they didn't get to. impeachment. is it strange to you, no

impeachment talk tonight? >> yeah. one would think as the leaders of the party, he this would have some thoughts on whether or not their party should be moving forward. especially cynic congress seems to be taking that step. there are a lot of things that didn't come up. so impeachment didn't come up. apparently women are not under attack. gays are not under attack all time because the courts never came up. mayor garland never came up. what we'll do about stacking the courts never came up. i think at some point this field has to turn and start telling us how they'll do these things as opposed to what they're going to do. exempt for elizabeth warren who came out strong, the democratic policy seems to be mitch mcconnell will self-deport into the sun, right? and john roberts will get his groove back and do the right thing. that's not what is going to happen in 2021. >> and on the impeachment front,

this is the driving debate right now in the democratic party. whether or not the leadership in the house will take the plunk and go right to impeachment. >> well, look. at 1:00 in the afternoon, i'm not as excitable as ellie at 1:00 in the morning. but i am as worked up as he is. with one little difference. the candidates discussed what was brought up. the real question was why were not they asked about it? if someone is asked a question for the 40th time about medicare for all and doesn't say, there is no point to this unless we impeach donald trump. that is a little bit of a stretch. there is a little circular this argument where the mideast are not asking these questions and then speaker pelosi says we're not hearing about it from the voters. you had ten people on stage. five or six, if not seven, are sitting members of congress who have come up very strongly for impeachment. so it is very strange.

the other thing, to go on to the point about, people are discussing what press brings up. do you know what didn't come up either it was taliban's weekend at camp david. how did that not come up when they asked corey booker about veganism. the thing i walked away from most, how important it was to see all the candidates on stage together. it is inexcusable and vexing why they set up the fourth debate to be eye deny cal to the third debate. a month from now we'll be back to two months because tom stir and maybe chelsea gabbert will qualify. we might not see the leaders together. >> and rick tyler, it does give you a big stark difference

between the parties. the democrats are so over indexing trying to make it extra fair so everybody gets to may. on the republican side, they've gotten away for a they have-hour debate in which corruption was not brought up in any deep sentence. the supreme court which could overturn the contact. it is three hours and a lot of things are difficult to cover. i think having donald trump surrender the same week. i do understand why impeachment was not brought up. like tom perez's decision to let the debates expand, it makes the party look bad. the party on impeachment is in a muddle. you can be for impeachment or

against it. most americans are not for it. but they're messaging on impeachment right now is all over the place. and we're arguing between whether it is an inquiry, an investigation. it is working toward impeachment. whether there are articles of impeachment. what the legal standards are. by the way, chairman nadler has been calling, subpoenaing witnesses and none of them are showing up and he's letting them get away with that. now he has one witness. so it is looking a little like a clown show. >> oh, boy. and debate aside, do i want to acknowledge that this was a debate at tsu which is an historically black college. it was tonight fourth time that a black woman, an african-american woman was the questioner. you've had four women moderating a primary debate.

i think that's very important that that happen. >> it might have been the first time that there were two black candidates on stage together. >> that's absolutely true. so change is good. a least there was some change. i want to thank my guests tonight. that wraps up our special coverage of this hour. we continue after this break. onk

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on it...with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. is tonight our first special debate coverage chris is standing by. chris. >> i thought we would start by setting a key note. talking about an ideologic debate especially the democratic left against trump. you talk about you don't want to be president of the other half of the country, same old divide from another perspective. >> that's my point because i'm someone from the middle of the country, i've been able to get things done because of the fact that i have worked on things, mattered to people and