stage. she will be joining us coming up. frustration that several states have done away with republican primaries. candidates take on the gop directly this morning in a brand new oped, if a party only stands for reelection, he stands for nothing. >> and losing the support of the man he once called "my african-american," astonishing. three years in, he's had enough. leaving the republican party and running for congress. >> and an msnbc correspondent just back from covering hurricane dorian. and the vice chair of the new york state democratic party. just a little later, we'll be

joined by 2020 democratic contender marian williamson. >> we begin with the president making policy decisions without a security advisor. the president says he fired john bolton, john bolton says he resigned. the president has been reaching out to another former security advisor, john bolton's predecessor for advice. guest of the show talks about trump's management style. there is a pattern, i disparage you, i shanked you, i need advice, i miss you. picking up the phone in months, john bolton could be on the phone. let me start with you and focus on this. the staffing of the white house and this president's reliance on

advisors. what do we learn about this chapter in the story? >> we learn yet again that advisors are not really what he's looking for. sycophants is what he's looking for. there is a lot of press around john bolton's advisors and how he wants this emthem to behave. >> only those who are going to play the devil's advocate and think things through. in no way do i feel like a love for bolton. >> when this happens, you feel a strange -- you feel something about them. >> all of a sudden, i'm worried about what will happen to him.

>> he'll be fine. >> right. you do want someone in the room that would say, hey, bringing the taliban to camp david is a bad idea. a worse idea on the week of 9/11. apparently, that's not what the president wants to hear. he wants people to love his ideas and be tortured in the press because of their unfailing support. if they make one mistake, he throws them under the puss in public. >> something written about in white house staffing. many of those who roll in and out of trump's business are like abused spouses. trump has the unique ability to make unsympathetic people seem

however briefly sympathetic. people who see this as a mission. they see this as a i president who is kind of plastic. john bolton with a long career as being a hawk look at him as an empty vessel. this instant teaches us that can backfire. >> it can. it is not a totally wrong discussion. he doesn't read his daily briefings or a lot of background on most things. they are not crazy but as we've played out time and time again. unless the president is emotionally tied through demonstrating blind loyalty, he won't listen at all. i think bolton probably had

significantly more influence on decision making when he was an on-air commentator. whenever there is an opening, a short list comes out. we know where that list is coming from. that is part of the reason even after they leave, they stay in that tore toured relationship. there is not a lot of jobs to be had after. republicans who have lived and worked in washington for a long time really don't want to be hiring people from the trump administration because they do request their judgement. >> to that point, an aspect about who is advising the president. someone on fox news -- >> by the way, i didn't know if we could say that network.

>> sooner or later, it will be shawn hannity. >> it was tucker carlson who took that stance months ago. >> that clearly influenced the president's thinking. >> it is scarey when we talk about the president not reading these briefings. we thought john bolton would be able to influence the president on iran, on venezuela. it turns out not. he's the only one that makes the decision. nobody else is able to influence. it is incredibly flightening to have john bolton and frightening to not have him. >> there is a host of international issues developing where a president would want to have somebody in that capacity

coalescing. >> especially when we are outing spies that recently have left russia when brexit is unfolding and the uk is falling apart. the president is unable to understand these more difficult issues. he takes these overseas trips and is asked about the west issues and he thinks we are talking about california issues. >> we are going to come back -- go ahead. >> remember, the president knows more than all his generals. we see that in action right now. >> we leave it on that point. she may not have made it to the democratic stage in houston. that is not stopping her. one on one with democratic contender next.

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>> one of those mornings, we are watching a ton of news. >> we had a case who we had an african-american man who is a fan of mine. great guy. i want to find out what is going on with him. look at my african-american guy over here. look at him. >> that was president trump singling out gregory cheetle at

a rally. now three years in, he says he's had enough. he's going to run for a saet in congress as an independent. he's run four times before as a republican. he said he is fed up with the president's white superiority complex and has had enough of the denigrating of black people. >> let me ask you how much you think about that moment back in 2016. what your reaction was at the time. >> at the time, we were having fun. i was being a heckler. a joke that turned into a sour joke. i made the statement and raised my hand to say i was here. everyone around me was laughing that it was funny. it turned into a different story.

>> what led to you change your mind. i know there were the comments about four freshman in congress. what was it about these reecent incidents that made you change your position? >> a series of events. if there was one more than another, it would be the kaepernick taking a knee incident. where he called kaepernick and others an s.o.b. he wouldn't call putin or north korean leader an s.o.b. that was something i could not tolerate. >> would you call him a racist? is that a word you are comfortable using to describe this president? >> no. in my era. racism and being a racist entailed a history of violence

and hatred. i don't know that president trump hates black people. with white superiority complex, there is the feeling of that. i don't see hatred in this administration. >> that is something fiercely debated. your reaction to that. the distinction. >> i think the words of the president are leading us to a place where ricist is prevalent. i love the colin kaepernick situation. you have a talented athlete who chose to take a stand for equal rights. i'm wandering if maybe gregory is surprised on the chilling

effect this administration has had on activists and quality in america. >> i am more disappointed we are at this level today. we are in 2019 and race is a major issue with the president to be grandstanding the way he is, it is disconcerting and dispointing. >> i mentioned you are running for congress. you've done that before. how do we begin to repair this? how does the rebuilding begin? how do you see this changing? >> i don't think the president is going to do anything to make a change. i think we the people have to come together and make a change. we have to get legislation and policies in order that will allow for a decrease in the wedge gap.

we have to have homeowners and those with trump the white superiority complex. when you look at the sentencing of blacks, there is a great disparity. as it is right now, that spells a death note for black people in the criminal justice system. >> gregory, you remember that moment. i would think the president would remember as well. there was a moment this week a reporter asked him about it. he professed not to know you. in the face of being accused of racist, he goes to unemployment numbers, the state of the icon my and how blacks and african-americans are doing today? >> your reaction to that?

>> the president knows who i am. i corresponded with him. he sent me a letter. the whole thing with the way the president deals with reality is of concern. the black unemployment numbers. that is a perversion of data. we have more blacks unemployed today than ever. when you look at the incarceration of black folk, there are millions of black folk right now who cannot get a job or get benefits because of their record, whether it be drugs or whatever, because they were locked up. they can't have access. we have millions of black men and women who cannot get a job. that's not taken into his number. >> thank you for your time. good luck. >> thank you. i really appreciate it. quickly here, i want to ask

you about this. when you have somebody like gregory come out and say this. >> i don't think anything greg is saying is particularly new information. i have to say, for me, i still have the question of like, how did you support him for three years and be called my african-american as it was now called was playing around or heckling or whatever he said. i support his move and agree with a lot of what he was saying about like manipulation of unemployment. >> coming up, 2020 contender joining us. and a late-night subpoena. chairman adams wants to haul a

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>> tropical storm humberto

threatening the bahamas. a report the storm will hit the area with up to four inches to six inches of rain. hundreds still unaccounted for. the death toll stands at 50 but is expected to rise. late last night, the chairman of the house intelligence committee is subpoenaing the acting director of national intelligence. quote, the committee can only conclude based on the commitment to the president. not a whole lot of congress kreet information. that line i read may involve the president of the united states. >> that's where some of the politics this goes.

september 9, the ieg tells schiff we have this whistleblower. telling the leader of national intelligence. he's the winner of survivor. he said there are confidentially privileged information by persons outside the intelligence community. that was his reason for not handing over the information. that has no basis in-law. the bigger story here is how influential is this administration in places it shouldn't be. we know the justice department has become incredibly politicised. if our intelligence community is becoming political, that is in many ways dangerous. >> a lot of people are looking

at these reports saying why did they go to the justice department. the justice department is being regarded in a different way than it has in the past. the dni staff is worried enough to seek outside council. straung that that outside council is from the justice department. >> very strange. my first thought is, who is this going to in the justice department? we are seeing an erosion of trust in institutions we should have trust in because of this loyalty to this president. in my opinion, the justice department, homeland security has become so heavily political, it is hard to trust their judgement and who they are trusting, who they are seeking council from and who they will and will not prosecute. trump keeps bringing back up

clinton and obama saying he wants to go back after them. >> the deadline for this on the 17th. here we are again. your sense of where things go from here. it all goes back to the first question around bolton. the appointees are so obsessed with making it okay in their eyes that these loopholes do not exist. they'll not follow the deadline or meet with the chairman that they want. you are afraid of the ig at all times. the fear of breaking federal law was overwhelming. when i look back all the way to

jared curb measukushner filling form, before this administration, if you would have done that, you would have lost your job. >> in city council, i used to fill out my conflict of interest forms with my counsel sitting next to me. sweating. >> and more about what we know coming up in the next hour. up next, how wearimarian willia plans to break out in the next d debate. debate

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>> a candidate for the democratic nomination, among 10 lower tiered candidates still on the trail making their case. a majority say there are way too many candidates. the next debate is in october. marian williamson has not qualified. she's half way there. she has to get to 2% in three more qualifying polls. i know it is early in california. thank you for being here. getting back to the debate. what were the moments you would have tried to jump in.

there was a long conversation on health care, foreign policy, gun policy, what is the issue you would have been raising your hand high? >> a did a live stream of my own through my website afterwards in order to present my case and the things i would have said. the problem i had. this is not a fault of the candidates at all. the very fact that we are talking about what is happening in america at this critical time. in way that one person has a little time to talk. i have a problem with the entire nature of the debate system. i was glad to have an opportunity to give a bigger explanation about my feelings about a more just economy. i had a deeper conversation about war and peace, which was

not on the stage. about children and traumatized children and child poverty and a deeper conversation about race, which was not on the stage. there is a deeper conversation about many in america that was not necessarily in that debate at all. >> how much does this next debate mart. we learned it will be in ohio about a month from today. >> there was an article written by a democratic in iowa. he said we don't need the dnc to come here and tell us who we need to consider. this is all artificial, really. the role of the democratic as well as republican political establishments is to facilitate, not dictate. what matters is the voters.

i t i think voters need more time. i know you've said there are poles that say they want to narrow it. this is one of the most critical votes in our lifetimes and in the history of the united states. look what you were talking about in the segment before. these are very, very serious issues. democrats have to think in terms of not only where america wants to go but who would be best to beat donald trump, which is where i feel i have a lot to say. this is not time to shut this down. this is time to give the voters an opportunity to think deeply, reflectively and make wise choizs. >> what is your path going forward. you mention live streaming. what does the path forward look

like to you? i imagine you have talked to skeptics but the system is what the system is and a matter of months before the primaries, maybe there isn't a way for to you get through that? >> obviously. i wouldn't say i'm trying to get around the party apparatus. let's think about the constitution. they don't even mention political parties. george washington warned us against all of that. i'm talking to voters. we've turned voters into spectators or poker chips. it is not that i'm trying to get around the party system but i am trying to have a deeper conversation that is more meaning 23u8 and real. i just the voters. i will get out when i feel i have made my case to the voters so they have an opportunity of

the agenda i'm bauking talking about. i'm in. i'm having a conversation. as long as people are showing up and continue to go to marian 2020.com and fund my campaign because i want a deeper conversation about the basics of our economy, about children, about war and peace, about race and about climate change and what we need to do to have a green century. as long as people say, you go, girl. i'm going. doesn't matter what the dnc says. >> finally, i'll ask you. why you elected to do this. i think back to a conversation with somebody else sitting out during a debate. the governor of montana. he's been critical of the party as well.

if that's a positive outcome and you've drawn attention to that. where do you see the party after this? >> first of all, i don't think any of us can run. i don't think you take on something this difficult. you are trying to elevate the country. who needs to really do that? this is something more important than that. i am seeing this in a more significant way than just trying to influence. i'm a writer, author, speaker, activist. somebody is going to win. others have to decide what to do next. that means really what is already happening. if you looked at the candidates,

quite a few were using phrases, like, hello didn't she just say that. if all they do is co-op the language and not realign the policy. we are talking more soulful policy, then the change hasn't happened yet. i'm here more than to suggest language. >> joining us predawn from los angeles. thank you for your time on this saturday. let me get your reaction to that. that last point there, the role of the outsider candidate. she's saying there is a serious that gets you do that. >> there is a seriousness. no question. i find some of her points interesting but contradictory at the same time. some of her topics.

particularly poverty and child poverty, she mentioned, weren't debate. very concerned. homelessness is a problem across the country if we don't break that cycle, that will grow and get worse. and yet, 20 people and two nights of debates. yet, 10 people on the stage, it is still impossible. for some people to stay in just to stay in, even though they say they are not. they are. >> and to you, the dnc has gotten a lot of criticism. where did we go from here facing that criticism about the debates and the way climate change has been dealt with in the debates. how much rebuilding has to

happen in the party and going forward? >> the party is not the dnv. that is there to help determine who the president is and go from primaries to general elections and support the state parties. that is what the dnc does. the actual democratic party is all over the country. it is very hard for most people to make that distinction. the criticism perez makes daily from inside the system versus the public at large who are like, just help me krig this out those at the dnc is mostly coming from bernie people who don't want to live down 2016. the way they made the determination of who would make it into the debate or not is

bays based on that criticism. that is very contrary to what the rest of the public is saying. >> up ahead. five gop congressmen in texas not running for reelection. ted cruz is concerned about calling a mastiff democratic turn out, quote, damaging the election in the making. raise your steins to the king of speed. the amount of student loan debt i have i'm embarrassed to even say i felt like i was going to spend my whole adult life paying this off thanks to sofi, i can see the light at the end of the tunnel as of 12pm today, i am debt free ♪

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i am royalty of racing, i am the twisting thundercloud. raise your steins to the king of speed. >> this is "up" i'm david gura. many think texas is in play. ted cruz sounds the alarm. he warns the far left is pissed off. they hate the president and that is a powerful motivator. if they show up and everybody else doesn't, that is how we end up with a potentially damaging result. what is described as a texodus.

five who say they are not going to receive reelection. somebody very familiar with that word. square that with me compared to the cost of investment. ron brown talks about tla thiha. what seemed insurmountable is the amount of money it would cost. is there still a worry about how expensive it is to play in texas. >> it is so much more cost effective to play for a place in other states. what i think is key to remember here, i'm still skeptical the race could come on line in the

state a year from now. enormous resources are being poured in. there is a shot they could take the house of representatives and pick up more movement in the state. the focus on texas has been a ch charismatic candidate. >> you spend a lot of time in texas, i want to ask you about what ted cruz said there. he went you through this fairly bruising campaign against beto o'rourke barely losing. what do those say to you. yes, democratics but also the degree to which this democratic party has gotten new voters out. >> he was pushed to his limit. the margin beto put out scared

him. saying texas is so red it glows. you can see it from outer space. was it immigration? was it guns? what is this thing that upped doors for him. it could be climate. texas has run a muck. it could be any number of those or a combination of all of them. >> let's crack the door open for democrats. what gives them the optimism? >> i think it is donald trump. i spent the past weekend in harris county, which is houston. the trends for 20 years, republicans won that county by an about 9 points. you get to 2016, trump lost the county by 12 points.

ted considers lost in 2017 by 17 points. the numbers are dramatic when you factor in the presidential campaign of 2016. >> what does texas teach us about other places in this country. what did can other places learn from that? >> everywhere is competitive. tle things are happening in texas. one, a lot of money vested in grassroots organizing. since obama's reelection. a lot of people went to texas to really start ground up. the changing demographics with latino population but new people who have moved to texas are voting much more democratic. and the country. the saets that were flipped would not have impact.

many who flipped and those who didn't are very, very competitive. >> to you, is this just republicans, say they is more t republican side. is it something more than that? >> i think we have to listen to what our -- the reporters said. they started locally. local politics matter. so that doesn't mean the congress people were just hearing it from potential opponents. they were hearing it when they were at every association meeting, every town association meeting. the staff was hearing it. and in new york state when we took back this state senate from the republicans, the folks that organized the campaigns linked every senate republican to donald trump. it throws them back on their heels. they don't know how to respond. local politics matter. >> all right. abby is going to chastise me for saying thag in a couple weeks

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do you believe president trump fired john bolton on john bolton resigned, another national security adviser bites the dust. it was a curious relationship. he was one of the ark techs of the iraq war. during his year and a half long tenure in the white house, national security adviser and advisee clashed on iran, north korea and the latest adventure to sit down with leaders of the taliban at camp david. >> he made some very big mistakes. >> frankly, he wanted to do things not necessarily tougher than me. john is known as a tough guy. he is so tough he got us into iraq. and that's tough.

and he's somebody that i actually had a very good relationship with. but he wasn't getting along with the people in the administration that i consider very important. john bolton is absolutely a hawk. it's up to him, he'd take on the whole world at one time. okay? >> i do. i have john bolton who i would definitely say is a hawk. and i have other people that are on the other side of the equation. >> john is very good. john is a -- he has strong views on things. but that's okay. i temper john. he has a small foreign policy team executing the lead into the 2020 election. the search is on for john bolton's replacement and the list of candidates includes many of the men who have been trump loyalists with secretary of state mike pompeo at the top of that list. up with me this morning, done callaway, the founder of the national voter protection action

fun fund, ben rhodes, the author of "the opposite of hate." peter sagel, host of npr's "wait, wait, don't tell me." ben rhodes, let many he start with you. i'm going go to you first. there is a lot of talk. peter baker writing the piece about the possibility of mike pompeo to pull a henry kissinger. that lasted for a while and then things changed. what are the down sides of having somebody that as we understand it has an outside role here influencing the president when it comes to foreign policy? he outshines the defense secretary at this point. what difference would it make if he occupied both roles? >> it's a terrible idea in the sense that the national security adviser is probably the most important job in the government in terms of having to coordinate all the various bodies of national security including the department of state. however, it doesn't really

matter. as near as i can tell, all donald trump wants for a national security adviser is somebody that does the normal job. dissenting views and make sure there is a good functioning process to implement rational competent policy. he just wants someone who will tell him what he wants to hear, who will praise whatever he is doing no matter what the results of those initiatives. and frankly will defend the initiatives on television as illogical and unsuccessful as they are. so he's not looking for, you know, we kund of act sometimes like he is looking for a normal national security adviser to make things run in the normal fashion. he's not. he is looking for someone who won't anger him for at least a year until he fires them. >> there is line of people that could do this job. there are still people who are interested in doing the job like national security adviser. why? why? at this point, you look at nick

mulvaney. he's been acting chief for 270 days. to your point, our sense of normalcy about what the jobs involved change sd so dramatically. >> one of the problems of being a talking head of this strange moment in history is what the hell are we supposed to say? i don't know. you know, we don't have a strategy. it appears that this president comes up with an idea. it usually involves either, you know, alienating conventional and not just out of historical importance but geo politically important allies while cozying up to dictators and terrorists. and does this by whim or tweet and his team has to, you know, mobilize and defect. if you dissent, you're out. so i don't exactly know why anyone would want this job. i think maybe there is some

weird altruistic thing we heard before. they think they can temper the worst impulses and save the world. but i don't -- i just -- i'm like perpetually at a loss. >> ben rhodes, win the back before the show. i looked at jeffrey goldberg's big piece in the atlantic. he participated in that piece. it's a 50 page long treatous on what that is. i looked at another one he wrote about the trump doctrine. it is supporter. i want to ask you about how participatory that obama doctrine is. we talk about the trump doctrine. how much is that something that he has defined himself versus when you look at the obama doctrine, it is something that, yes, he had a vision or a sense of foreign policy. it is buffeted by those advising him and around him? >> well, if you're trying to make sense of this trump policy, the only common threads are that trump wants to be at the center of everything. that donald trump wants to somehow have both the

belligerence of kind of a fox news foreign policy. we hate iran and we hate obama's iran deal. we don't believe climate change exists. you know, we're going to get tough on china. but then when the consequences of that belligerence come into focus, look what we have. we have a trade war with the chinese. we got to the press hibrink of . we have trump escalating the war in afghanistan. now he wants to sit down the sal ban himself to end it. we have trump chasing around kim jong-un who is building nuclear weapons. none of this is working out. and i think what trump realizes, here i am heading into an election year and the seams are popping out of the world order and everybody can see it. and there are real consequence here's. the china trade war has taken 300,000 u.s. jobs and risks pulling the global economy into a recession. we're about to back into a war with iran if he can't figure out

some way to basically come back into something like obama's iran deal. and so now all he cares about can i look like i'm at the middle of striking a deal just to go back to the status quo that i upsended? no. there is no coherent zdoctrine here. he opposes democratic allies. he likes to be seen with other strong men like kim jong-un and putin. that is not a strategy. that is a reality show. unfortunately, the consequences here are much more important than whether or not, you know, he fired somebody on the apprentice. >> peter, how do you process all this? listen to ben talk about it. that's a consequence of this. john bolton is out. how crazy is that? there is a limit to how the ban

width we have to process this craziness. >> yes. i think the best thing to do is say i associate myself with sal i why's exasperation. i think that really is the most eloquent expression of my feelings. also, a second thought, i don't know much about foreign poll sichcy but one of my rules in livcy should not do something if the only other person ever to do it is henry kissinger. you know, that's my thought. it is a little crazy. as you say or as ben says, there is all this stuff going on all chf has real world effects. and it's impossible to even start to pay attention to it because something else gets blown up. so, for example, you were just talking about his favorite strongmen. well, they're out of luck. it just turns out that president trump referred to cici of egypt as my favorite dictator. imagine the other dictators are feeling pretty badly about that. i mean, you know, there is the old saying about car wrecks.

i couldn't look away. we've been watching a 2 1/2 year car wreck. and i completely understand the impulse to say oh, it's all crazy. it's all a reality show. it doesn't really matter in terms of the effects on the world. but then, you know, they get into yet another oil tanker. it explodes. and you have this look and feeling of looking at a disaster. and then, you know, there's really nothing to do except look at the camera and sigh. >> have at it. >> ben, when you look at -- when you look at john bolton, i keep going back to tim o'brien's column about this for bloomberg. this departure is some small amount of sympathy. you see a guy that had expertise. could be wrong. he had expertise come into this job. optimistically thinking i suppose you can impose the world view on president trump. that didn't happen. help me understand the role of expertise in this administration. i'm going to ask you the same

question. what does this teach us about that? somebody who has had a long career, has at least familiarized himself or studied the issues trying to bring spg to bear in the white house? >> first of all, i think we're all able to breathe a sigh of relief that john bolton is not there. he is a man that would have got us into one war if it was up to him. >> you think he was tempered? >> well, only really one instance which is that iran play was set up after that drone shot. if donald trump had taken that strike, iran would have hit back and we would be in a war. that's how close we came. these are rereal consequences. what i sa new john bolton, he saw an disinterested president. he knows how to make the bureaucracy work. and so he ran that whole play. it was after he came in that we pulled out of the iran deal, stacked on sanctions, provoked them to the edge. he ran the venezuela plan. we recognize the opposition. and basic will i tried to

support an effort to overthrow the government of sen venezuela. nobody pays attention to the fact that he basically dismantled the arms control regime that the united states has helped build since the end of the cold war. he did all that because donald trump wasn't paying any attention. and frankly because those policies represent if not the -- what trump thinks is doctrine, certainly the impulses of trump which are bee lidge rent to the rest of the world. the president of the united states makes the decisions. and trump is not wrong about that. that's one thing he's not wrong about. and here we are because we have a president whose decisions are contradictory. right now he is trying to chase the iranians into meeting with him. the iranians don't want to meet with him. he keeps saying, i'll meet with the iranians. nobody is saying they want to meet with him.

because why would they? because he spent two years stacking sanctions on them and pulling out an agreement they are complying with. trump has this totally incoherent back and forth thing. the rest of the world, people have to figure out what is happening in the world's only superpower looks totally incoherent? and what you have is this sense of generalized chaos. >> i want to pick up on something you said. he's talking about a disinterested president and the consequences of that. let's move beyond the west wing, the oval office to washington as a whole. you look at the michael lewis has written about, so much is happening. so much is changing. we talk about things bursting at the seams. there are seam that's we notice and others dwoent. help us understand today how that manifests itself and other agencies. sfw

. >> the worst thing i can go do is go toe to toe with that. you have folks that are regardless of the politics, a condoleeza rice, they trained in substantive expertise in a variety of fields that are covered by this administration. those people are not in the trump administration. one, because nobody wants to specifically work for this unruly president. without bringing in principles, number two, because substantive real people don't want their legacies tied to the nature of this administration. you don't see the best and the brightest. that's how you get a stephen milner charge of substantive policy. that's how you get a banning or a nazi gorfa in charge of real policy making. and that's not the folks that are going to define policy in washington. also, you know, i'll represent the swamp, that's fine. that's how the swamp stays the

swamp. you have real subject matter and this president has not been able to garner any of that talent to want to participate in the administration. >> mcmaster is scorned and sperned by this president. fired unceremoniously in the fashion he fired so many. >> yeah. >> became a shoelder to cry on. something to reach out to. he made phone calls. >> he does this a lot. >> he fires people and replaces them with somebody worse. he calls out the person he fired and is like oh, man. you know, we've all been there. and all i can think of is, like, h.r. mcmaster on the phone with the president trying to signal to his wife, tell me. help me. oh, i'm sorry, mr. president, you're breaking up. and this is maybe something that

ben can say. you're the only person in the administration. they cannot understand why people like h.r. mcmaster or general kelly or all these people who are definitely patriots and professionals maybe the most important one is jim mat is a mattis are not coming forward and saying let me tell what you happened. not opinions, no pundit, please, there rent plaintiff us. just tell us what you saw. >> to that point -- >> i don't know why they don't. >> i tweeted this out when the camp david thing happened. who has the next interview with john mattis. he didn't talk about this stuff. he cloaks himself in being in the arms forces, ignoring the fact he took this political position. i'm very curious as well. these people have seen things that would have a consequence on the public debate heading into

an election in which the american people are going to make a decision. jim mattis and h.r. mcmaster saw things in terms of trump not taking that job seriously in, terms of how unfit he is to be in that job. if they told the public, it would really resonate, right? so i think it's outrageous for mattis to say i'm more than willing to write this book and go on a speaking tour and make all the money that comes with that and i'm more than willing by the way to trash the previous commander of chief, obama, which he's bonn doing regularly, but then i get to sit on this high horse and have it go both ways. i get to wink at you and say yeah, i think he's crazy too. i won't break that code. >> demanding. he talks about general terms. in the marines, we believe in firm leadership. it's like this is how jim mattis tells you your house is on fire. and in the marines, we're against combustion. we believe that things should

not combine with oxygen creating flames. that's generally one of our policies. and meanwhile, the house is on fire. and i mean, again, who am i to criticize these men who have actually put their life on the line? but what is the problem here? >> one more mission. that's what our colleague wrote about saying, listen, jim mattis has one more mission he has to go on. >> last question to you here. a lot of people said, okay, bolton is out. he has an acting person in that position. how much is really changed here? help us understand the perils of this. understanding somebody in that job in an acting capacity, looking at the short list. what does that mean in practice? foreign governments don't know who is in charge. they don't know who to call. they don't know who speaks for the president. i heard many reports and foreign governments who said to me that

they worked things without state department officials and other people only to find out that the white house was not even aware of the initiatives or aware that this person was in any way empowered to speak for the president. who can be trusted when the president of the united states is changing a direction of a hurricane with a sharpy. and the u.s. government has to explain to people, here's what you have to worry about, here's what you don't. right? we have been lucky enough not to have the bottom fall out and have there be a real, real crisis except for the ones they

created in this administration. >> let me join the chorus of size here. deep exhale. >> ben rhodes, thank you very much for joining us in new york. the war and biden clash that didn't at this week's democratic debate. what does that tell us about elizabeth warren's long game? that is coming up next on "up." . we trust usaa more than any other company out there. . they give us excellent customer service, every time. our 18 year old was in an accident.

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minutes ago she said she is not ready to get out of the race. williamson and the rest of the democratic contenders are back on the campaign trail making stops in los angeles to washington, d.c., less than 48 hours after the top candidates hit the stage. we didn't see a showdown between joe biden and elizabeth warren. many assumed they would trade jabs. but that was not the case. now "the new york times" is questioning how long that will last saying, "it's almost inevitable that race will grow more kpative and in tcombative signs that leading candidates were ready for conflict." let me start with you drawing from that piece that the sense that i get of warren's strategy going forward here is there are

two things she had to draw the distinction. we keep hearing the electability phrase. the sense i get from reading the piece is she doesn't have to do that now. she continues to build the constituency. there is no reason to go for that clashing dynamic. >> we were not having this conversation the same time of the 2008 election. we were not having this election the same time as the 2016 election. i mean we the media and the chattering class. so, you know, it is note wornly, and, in fact, right, there were certain presumption around who is going to win and those went out the window. comparable times in 2007 there were polls that showed, you

know, obama down against all contenders. any of them is electable. it is a referendum on him and policies and ideas. as the candidate that has the ideas and vision to repair what he's done to break this country, but to fix the deeper dysfunctions in our economy and our society. right? we have problems. we have run away inequality. we have opportunity gaps. she has a solution to fix them beyond just repairing the damage of trump.

>> how much do the debates matter going back to what william said? she's able to reach voters through other means. she comes on television. she can have the conversations. look at how often she spoke in the last two debates. how much do they matter as this debate -- as this campaign proceeds? >> my nonscientific opinion right now is they don't matter a whole lot. your job is to do three things. appear competent and like march madness, survive and advance. you have these moments where for large sections of time a major candidate can virtually disappear. cory booker performed well. but there were times you forgot he was there.

it's not they're job to land a hay maker. it didn't end up so well for him. we can get back to that later. that was the first time that a candidate spoke to the cognitive devolution of joe biden. that was probably a thing. i don't know that debates matter that much. there are still three more this calendar year. your job is to appear competent and in advance. i read a former colleague's paper. he was with him before the first debate. a great debate for william castro. it was a breakout debate for him. in that, what comes out is that thing that set him apart in the debate is not something he prepped for or tried to do. it happened organically. yes, there is a ton of prep that went into trying to figure out what the hay maker s it didn't

happen in the end. so to don's point, what distinguishes these candidates? >> you want to say i didn't get a chance to talk to marianne williamson. i admire her chutzpah. i wonder what fun job she's going to try to get next. maybe she'll be pope or pirate queen. it's great. i want to be president. but my background long before i ghoot what i do now is in the theater. i always look at politics as theater. it turns out may not be more accurate than we want it to be. i look at what character the characters the candidates are trying to present. castro who i met sean a lovely man seemed to be trying to attract a chief center i can take the fight, watch me go off biden. maybe i'll go after trump. it doesn't fit him. i saw an interview with a congresswoman about castro. what do you think of the attack? actually, i work with him in some really complicated things.

that is not a good brand. elizabeth warren figured it out. she is trying to create the tough but great nun you had in catholic school. the nun that was tough but set you straight. right? she took care of things. you know she didn't go after biden. biden knows what she thinks. it's like she was with her dolls, tough but fair. >> take it! >> you know, the environmental in which -- i don't think actually this debate was among them, you know, the worst in this regard. but the debate you can see the moderateors trying to get the candidates to tack each other.

they talked about the nuances. a privatization versus public goods. i don't know. revive it. what i love about warren, i will say, this is -- you can see the gravity of this primary revolving around her attempt to keep it substantive and talk to policy not personality. but my god you keep watching the debate monitors. who won this stage? no, specifically, who do you -- who you are talking about? and if you name check someone, they get a turn. it's just designed to sensationalize anden to the taken when our voters actually need to be informed. please, please god let us do better. >> echo what he said after that comment. the senate gavelled out of session with little to show their first week back. the largest companies urging them to work now on gun policy. up next, the uphill fight for gun control and what could get congress to move on that issue. t congress to move othn at issue

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presidential candidate beto o'rourke on thursday. frustration over gun legislation evident in his response. when asked what she can do about the gun control bill, she responded bluntly. >> so here we are once again asking the grim reaper and informing the grim reaper that the bills are alive and well in the public. that he public opinion, public sentment will weigh in. >> shannon watts joins me. she's founder of moms demand action. shannon, nice to speak with you. i want to get a saens of where the state of play is on this issue. you heard the comments there from the house speaker. we heard from the senate majority leader. there is a lot of passing this around. and for those who are cynical or disspirited by the lack of action on this issue, it feels like here we go again.

>> well, look, it's so posh to remember that we are winning on this issue. we made amazing progress in state houses and board rooms. just this month over 40 store brands across the country said no to open carry. earlier this week over 145 ceos signed a letter asking congress to act. companies are doing what they need to do. it's time for congress to do what it needs to do. and in particular, the senate. we're talking about president trump and the senate majority leader. we're waiting for them to act on life saving legislation that passed in many houses and shown to save lives. so that is the pressure that we're putting on them right now is to act. i want to be clear. if they think that they can slow walk this, if they think that momentum will dissipate, there will be hell to pay at the ballot box if there is no action. >> help us understand what that means. we saw this week that letter from 150 plus chief executives. saying that action needs to be taken on capitol hill. you mentioned holding the

lawmakers to account. what does that look like? spell that out for us. how will these lawmakers be held to account if nothing happens on this issue? >> we have had rallies asking for law makers to act. we're seeing hearts and minds change among some lawmakers. we're seeing some come to the middle. we know that republicans and democrats are working together on legislation at the nat level. we're going to continue to put pressure on them. we're looking at the elections of 2020. every seat up is for the general assembly in virginia this year. it's the nra's backyard. and we've already said we will spend more than $2.5 million in that state. but that's just the beginning. we'll be very active in the 2020 elections. we outspent and outmaneuvers the nba in 2018. i'm certain that we will go into this election with more momentum than we ever had. if americans are angry the senate hasn't acted.

>> don, i start with you. that letter was astonishing. we have seen that over the last many months more faith in corporations to take on issues like this one to step into things that they might not have stepped into before. >> yeah. but corporations speak with their money. so until they start stripping mitch mcconnell and nrcc of the tremendous amounts of money which prop up the political operations, then it's kind of all empty. you can send a tlaer is nletter nonbinding to any of them. they it continue to run on the anti-gun action platforms. i had a great conversation this week with michael shawn spence. you mention something i think is very important about consistently doing the work in state houses and local legislatures. what can americans know that you all are doing on the policy front if you just lost faith in mitch mcconnell? >> it's such a great point. we have been active now for almost seven years.

we have passed background checks in 21 states. we passed red flag laws in 17 states. we passed bills to disarm domestic abusers in 28 states. in 2018 we passed stronger gun laws in 20 states, nine of which were signed by republican governors. lawmakers listened and they're listening to constituents. we need the senate to do the same. >> last question here. there have been democratic lawmakers who have been critical of the former congressman for saying that. can some people read that as a genuine reaction what is happening here. this is going to hurt democrats because it's going to cater to republicans who said all along that what voters should fear here is confiscation. democrats want to confiscate guns. your reaction to that moment, yes, to that clip and that moment, that express from beto o'rourke. >> first of all, i think we need to recognize what a sea change this is in american politics that every single democratic candidate is competing to see who is the best on this issue. we have never seen that before.

we're focused on simple bipartisan efforts that will help us. these are bills waiting for mitch mcconnell to look at and get a vote. that's what we're asking for is a vote. if anyone wants to call their senators, they can text the word checks to 64433. we'll patch you into your senators and you can express the need for urgent action. >> shannon, always good to speak with you. thank you for joining us on this saturday. i appreciate it. the overnight subpoena outlining the serious misconduct that could now involve the president of the united states, why one of the top officials could be called before congress next. offe called before congress next.

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the riskiest job. the consequences underwater can escalate quickly. the next thing i know, she swam off with the camera.

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laden, high ranksing member of al qaeda and the white house says he was responsible for planning and dealing with various terrorist groups. continue to monitor that story. the white house confirming the death of hamza bin laden. adam shift issued a subpoena to the acting director of national intelligence. shift is seeking access to a whistle-blower complaint that is a matter of urgent concern. saying the acting dni refused to turn over the disclosure following a formal request. instead withholding the whistle-blower complaint illegally and possibly at the direction of the executive branch. the km the can only conclude the serious misconduct at issue involved the president of the united states and/or other senior white house or administration officials. joining us now is kyle chang. he covers congress for "politico." let's start there.

your reaction? there is a lot in there. a lot to on pack. >> what is remarkable is what we don't know. it sounds extremely grave and extremely serious. and the way it was released this late night release that describes this flurry of correspondents between adam shift and the intelligence community. the dni. he is treating this as an extremely grave and urgent matter and it speaks to something. i'm not sure he knows the content of this complaint. so it could range anywhere from something mundane and explainable to something extremely serious involving the president. >> kyle, what do we know what is going to happen next? what is chairman shift requesting happen? >> he demanded access to this whistle-blower's complaint. if he doesn't get that, he's going to demand possibly through a subpoena the testimony from the dni from joseph mcguire. sow wants him in nt fro of the committee in a public hearing to explain why he is sort of

circumvented the laws that require disclosure to congress within a much shorter time frame than they got in this. >> what do we know of the story that compliments this? the awareness of this complaint, this whistle-blower complaint. i gather he or she made this complaint and then they went to the justice department. >> right. that is what is extremely unusual here. this complaint came a month ago. remember, this is at a time when the long time dni dan coates was about to step down. so there is turmoil going on within the intill jens communel community. a one week period to turn it over to congress by early september once he deemed this complaint to be urgent and credible. that's what didn't happen. what we do know is the dni's office said this is handled appropriately. no laws were broken. and they intend to sort of explain that over time.

we don't know what is the clear letter of the law. >> last question here. what are we going to learn about this as this goes forward? the documents and this information to him, how much transparency is there going to be about all of this going forward? >> that is kun of the frustrating parts. even if congress access this is, we don't know if it speaks to something that is highly classified or would never be released in a puck lick forum anyway. will he ever know what he is talking about? we have no visibility into this whatsoever. >> thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you. >> let me turn to you, don. >> it is.

we have seen the egregious corruption from this administration. i just want to underscore this is the importance of at least democrats having at least one chamber. they have the house majority. he has the subpoena power. of course the white house will ignore it. if jim jordan or whoever is the ranking member were the chairman of this committee, if republicans have a house majority, there is no action whatsoever. certainly the not will do nothing about this. they'll do nothing. the white house will ignore it. but if the democrats do not have the house majority, this will be a nonstory. we possibly wouldn't even know about it. the. >> i want to get that in there this morning. thank you very much. set to be one of the most important speeches of joe biden's 2020 run, the bar of the former vp has to put race in america front and center. barack obama did that a year ago with a major speech tomorrow in alabama. ajor speech tomorrow in alabama. when you shop for your home at wayfair,

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america. that will be part of a memorial service commemorating the 56th anniversary of the 16th street church bombing. a historic moment is a turning point in the civil rights moment could be a chance for him to reset with black voters after this moment during thursday's debate when he stumbled through answering a question on the legacy of slavery. >> we have make sure that every single child does, in fact, have 3, 4, 5-year-old goes to school, no the daycare. we bring social workers into homes of parents to help them deal with how to raise their children. it's not that they don't want to help. they don't know quite what to do. play the radio. make sure that the television -- excuse me, make sure that you have the record player on at night, the phone. make sure that kids hear words. a kid coming from a very poor school or a very poor background will hear four million words fewer spoken by the time they get there. >> joining us no you is the president and ceo of the national urban league, former

mayor of new orleans as well. let's start with the importance of the speech. 10:22 a.m. the bells toll and remember what happened in that bombing and then joe biden, vice president joe biden steps into the pulpit to deliver this speech. help us understand what he needs to do and what you're going to be listening for from the former vice president when he does that. of. >> so thank you for having me. it's a very important setting. it's a sacred setting in the civil rights movement there in birmingham at the 16th avenue baptist church. 56 years after that act of domestic terrorism which we need to remember came just a few weeks after the historic march on washington. st so obviously it was tied to that march and tied to the activism for change that was taking place in america. so i think what the vice president has to do is a number of things. first of all, i think it's a speech that creates an opportunity for there to be a vision about how he as president would confront race as president. how he would confront if you

will the environment, the toxic environment that is created in the current time by the incumbent. and how this increase in hate crimes is increase if hate crimes, this increase in hate crimes has torn this country apart. how would he confront that. secondly i think it's important for the vice president to talk about how he has evolved as an elected official and as a person. because i think americans understand that on race, many white americans have evolved their thinking over time and i think it's important to be candid about that, to indicate how you have an understanding today that maybe isn't exactly the same as you had early in your career. and i think thirdly, it's important to discuss some real issues. those real issues are the issues of the racial wealth gap, the the issues of the achievement gap, the issue of the need to

confront this assault on voting rights, mass incarceration, so i think it's also an opportunity to set a strong frame work on some policy issues but on many respects i think it's a vision speech, it's a character speech, it's what's in the soul of joe biden, how he would as president seek to forge the kind of coalition to turn the country away from the toxic environment that we've lived in in the last few years. >> let me ask you about those three things, is the personal history the most paramount for him at the point? i go back to what he said on that debate stage. even the way the question to him was articulated. it was you said this 40 years ago essentially acting to comment on that personal evolution and he had such difficulty doing that. >> yeah, it was a moment for him to really have a reckoning with his past record and let's be clear, anybody who has had a 50-year record of public service has been on the wrong side of

some -- of where the progressive positions are on these days. he had on opportunity to really reconcile some of that stuff and i think he -- i'll put it politely and say he pretty much failed. what is left on race, what we're looking for is something that is an anti racist energy. nobody thinks joe biden is a racist objectively. abraham kennedy wrote a book call "how to be anti racist." you have to be actively anti racist and i don't think anybody on the left who is animating and driving this conversation is seeing a really aggressive anti racist energy out of joe biden. i didn't write his speech for tomorrow but i hope he's going to lay out an aggressive anti racist agenda as opposed to saying you can't possibly think i'm racist. i took right next to barack for eight years. >> how important is this speech? you go back to the one barack

obama delivered. people have been suggesting he should make a speech like this for many months. >> i wouldn't dare to suggest to african americans what they need to hear or what they want, but -- >> do you need to hear him akree addressing this evolution as well? >> this is what i need to hear just to be confident he can responsibility in a responsible way. i need him to get through an entire speech without rambling off about an african american small business owner he used to know and who used to have these fake heart attacks and you realize he's talking about fred sanford. because when i was watching a moment ago and that moment from the debate every time you see it it looks worse and you realize there's this panic going off in his brain and he started saying things that men his age absorbed. oh, you know, they need to read to their kids more. there was a time 20 years ago

where you could say that. it would be okay and it's just sort of blurting out of his head and i don't know what to say about that. >> that's the challenge is that joe biden has the best of intentions but for joe biden add noll only people of his generation but people who haven't done a lot of introspection and racism and equality, it comes back to victim blaming. it's their fault. they don't have jobs, they don't have fathers. how about these that were bisected off with highways and separated from educational opportunity and so forth. how about all of that? let's talk about that structural stuff and joe biden has not yet demonstrated the ability or the desire to get into the real stuff beyond the surface. >> and let me add this. >> lastly to you. >> i haven't heard that from my candidate in any respects and so that's why this is a very important opportunity for him i think to be a pace setter in

this campaign with respect to how this issue should be confronted by a person who's going to serve as president of the united states. because it's the moral voice of the president, it's the president's ability to command public attention and shape public opinion and i'll be looking for those leadership qualities in this speech, the leadership, the sensibility that if you're in the oval office and it has to be understood in the context of what we've been experiencing with the trump administration. the rise in domestic terrorism. the rise in hate crimes, the assault on voting rights and civil rights is a context around this speech and i think it's about demonstrating a solid and clear comparison. so it's a big opportunity for the vice president and i'll be watching closely. >> thank you very much for the time this morning. thanks to my panel here in new york as well. >> joy reed and congress's slow march toward impeachment. the developments from capitol

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that does its for me today. thank you very much for watching. it's time for "am joy" with joy reed in washington, d.c. >> the difference between what support and what you support vice president biden is you require them to opt in and i would not require them to opt in. >> they the not have to buy in. >> you just said that.

you just said that two minutes ago. you said two minutes ago they would have to buy in. you said they would have to buy in. >> they would not have to buy in. >> are you forgetting what you said two minutes ago? are you forgetting already what you said just two minutes ago? >> good morning. and welcome to "am joy" and happy saturday. we have a lot to get to this morning including two deep dives on impeachment and donald trump's threat to national security. but first, that tense exchange that you just heard between castro and vice president biden over health care quickly became the most talked about moment of the debate. declaring it incorrect though he continues to stand by it. and the take away the many debate watchers was that castro had harmed his own campaign. several 2020 contenders have since rushed in to biden's defense condemning c