>> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the 2020 democrats spent much of last night and today jockeying for advantage in the post debate spin wars. some just trying to distinguish themselves from the rest of the pack after all ten front runners finally shared one debate stage for first time in this election cycle. but other candidates spent the day in damage control mode. the showdown driving today's news, julian castro's suggestion that joe biden has time to remembering his line of attack. our colleague chris matthews pressed castro on the subject last night. >> most people thought there was another aspect that you were suggesting that a man of 76 years had lost his ability to remember what he just said. >> not at all. >> you rubbed it in three or four times. you kept saying you don't remember? you don't remember what you just said? >> we had a disagreement whether he said the words buy in.

he did say the words buy in. >> excuse me. these tapes are going to be played over and over again. so whatever you say here. >> we're here to debate health care policy. this covers -- this affects everybody, so look, whether -- >> you believe he's deficient. >> i believe his health care plan is deficient. >> for anyone who missed the fireworks here's the original attack. >> the difference between what i support and what you support vice president biden is you require them to opt if and i would not require them to opt in. they would automatically be enrolled. they wouldn't have to buy in. >> they do not have to buy in. they do not have to buy in. >> you just said that two minutes ago. you just said two minutes ago that they would have to buy in. you said they would have to buy in. are you flergtiorgetting what yd two minutes ago? are you ferting what you said just two minutes ago? i can't believe that you said two minutes ago they had to buy

in and now you're saying they don't have to buy in. >> i said anybody like your grand morter who has now money. you're automatically enrolled. >> we should noete that we tooka look at the transcript and biden did not say that americans who can't afford it would have to buy in to his health care plan. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the chief public affairs officer for move on.org and jonathan, white house reporter for the associated press. and the rev al sharpton host of politics nation, president of the president national network. in politics when you go in for the political assassination you better make sure your gun is loaded. he made an attempt to take biden down, to diminish him and he missed. >> well, i think clearly he did. you know, i was there last night in houston and i was sitting there and when he did it and i

like julian castro. he's very strong on a lot of the things i'm concerned about, but clearly he went three or four times suggesting that mr. biden was forgetful and wasn't working with a full deck in terms of memory. which is a republican talking point. i think we've got to be very careful that we not confirm what we know trump and them are going to do if biden or whoever is the nominee. that's one. second, you win the nomination by getting the most votes, not by doing the beatdown. especially when you're using a false premise. biden clearly did not forget what he said. if anything, julian fabricated said that he forgot what he said and i think he hurt himself in that regard and julian i think has a lot of going for. i think he damaged it last night. not only because he raised a point that i think the republicans are trying to use on biden and i'm not a supporter of

biden or julian but because what he said was based on a false premise because biden didn't say what he said he said. and people saying wait a minute, if you're that wrong about that maybe i don't believe you on other things. you'll have to be careful that you be sure what you're pitting your weight on can hold your weight. >> i want to put you all on the spot and i think at this point almost 18 hours after this debate, if we can strip this down. it is true that some people that have watched biden over the years find him to be less sharp. but it is not true that he was -- he's always sort of been loose with his -- not loose but he's always spoken very authentically. very -- i said last night that i worked for a man that said is our children learning when he was pushing education reform. voters don't throw out flags for misspeaking. voters are looking at the whole picture and -- and i know it's

early, you constantly caution that we're early. that this could flip, but right now, biden is a decisive front runner. >> and he's a decisive front runner and you've got to beat that and not just beat up on him. let's be real clear. biden is 76. bernie is in his 70s. elizabeth warren is 70 and we act like biden is the only old person over 70 president in the ring. donald trump is over 70. so i mean, we -- it's not like biden is 76 and everybody else is 30. so why are we making an sh shoe out of that? are we going to now say we're going with the 70-year-old or we think is better than they used to be? how do we know how any of them were in their 50s? we know how biden was because he was already in the senate and already a public figure. i can tell you that donald trump has been looney for 30 years because i know him. so what are we talking about? >> i think that the question that is before democratic primary voters is -- if

generational change is on the menu it was. i thought beto and buttgieg had great nights last night. if that's what they want that's what they'll pick. but the idea that julian castro had to take it on himself it feels like democrats didn't welcome. >> first of all castro was wrong. he almost seemed almost gleeful about it. his tone was the wrong way. he came back to it later in the night where he also said that biden wasn't making sense but i also think though, fair or not, this is a story line for joe biden. he's had a number of blupders. >> is this out there with voter ors is this a media story line? it's not just castro. booker talked to cnn immediately after the debate and said that he had real concerns about joe biden's ability to carry the ball across the end line. we had him on "morning joe"

questioning whether he could see it to the end. we talked to operatives that shared the when you say pers that you just mentioned. there are people that are concerned about the former vice president's ability to do this. it's mattering to the other candidates and at some point perhaps it will matter to those voters. >> democrats something i've heard since 2015 is that democrats remain angry about what they felt like was a double standard for hillary clinton and donald trump. and if the question is mental fitness, and we're prosecuting a case against joe biden and letting what -- if donald trump were anyone's you know, relative, i think there would be a family meeting, we'd talk about the investigation, we'd talk about a david brooks column in 2017 where senators wondered if he wasn't displaying early signs of alzheimer's. we'd talk about an axios report where her schedules were unearthed and there was nothing on them. if this is going to be an apples

to apples question and it's because of the age of two othe top candidates, it would seem that democrats are already digging a hole for themselves on these kind of attacks on biden. >> i think that they are -- we are basically writing the attack ads if this continues for the republicans. and that is something that's incredibly dangerous because biden could very well be the nominee. i don't know, but that could be a likelihood. he is right now the front runner and we can't do that. right? we -- and the other thing about biden is that they don't understand -- people need to understand is he is the most well liked person in the race. people like him. there's a reason why he was affectionately called uncle joe. everybody knew who he was. i worked in the white house for the first two years under the obama administration. there was understanding that he was gaffe prone and it was beloved in some weird way and biden of today when you think about the gaffe it's the same biden of 1988. yes, he's 76 years old. yes, there is, you know, clearly

he's older and there's probably things that people should be concerned about, but -- but that is for the voters to decide. and we can't go after each other and also the party -- the base doesn't want to see that. they want to beat donald trump. they don't want to see these guys going after each other and that's what's going to be really problematic were democrats. >> listen, all is fair in love, war and presidential primaries i'm not suggesting that he did something that's politically out of bounds. i'm suggesting he did something that was politically unwise. i don't think this helped him and i think if biden -- i take the notes that anything can happen. i think that's right. but if biden emerges and the democrat's nominee, julian castro will have weakened him in some way among some viewers. >> in life and politics we often wrongly con flat age and fitness and whatever castro was trying

to do last night demonstrated that he was wrongly con flating age and fitness. if age was an issue we'd be having conversations about biden, act trump, about ruth bader againsberg. about nancy pelosi. they're all sort of the same generation, the same decade. it is wrong to ask questions about age. it is appropriate to ask questions about fitness. if castro was trying to challenge biden's fitness biden answered and castro showed a lack of fitness in that moment. the american people will decide that. i think questions around fitness is an appropriate line of questioning for the media of all people. yes, he is gaffe prone. that has to be reported on. we can't ignore that. it's important how we contextualize it. donald trump i wouldn't call them gaffes. donald trump is manipulative. he lives, tes. he knows it. the biden's gaffes are just

gaffes the american people will know the discernment to know the difference between a gaffe and manipulation. you mentioned bush 43. i like seeing biden tested in these homes. i think the american people need to see him tested in this moment and it's an opportunity for biden to step up. i'm not a democrat and i know democrats lament that they're swinging at each other last night. that's what elections are for. castro is right. that's what elections are for. if biden can't take it among a friendly fire of fellow democrats watch out because donald trump is going to hit him with ten times more than that. this is an opportunity for biden to demonstrate homiciis metal i these moments. >> i agree with that but you've got to offer more than you attacking the old guys. you've got to sell why you are the candidate that can be trump and that can deliver. if your whole premise of running is that you're young, that's not an achievement. you were just born last. you had nothing to do with that. you've got to show us okay, fine, they're old, i'm young but

i'm going to do a, b, c, d and show some new energy, new ideas and if you're two in the polls how come young people in your generation is not following you. to call yourself a youth leader just because you're youth does not mean you are a youth leader. you have to be a leader to bring some youth with you. when i see somebody say i'm speaking about a new generation, they don't seem to have gotten the memo that you speak for them. >> and bernie sanders is an example. he's 78. he's actually 78. >> the youth candidate was bernie sanders who was in his 70s so what are we talking about? >> if we face a national security situation with any hot spot around the globe, you better believe a selling point of youth is not going to be a winning point with the candidates. they're going to look for somebody with experience who can say i've been there.

it's based on experience. >> joe biden also was asked about a iraq and afghanistan and he utterly mixed them up. his answer was sort of nonsensical so it wasn't just that monone moment. there were a few. he mixed up new hampshire and vermont. others though, they feel like there might be a little momentum there and other candidates are going to figure out. >> the people who are rule him in or out based on misstatements on the campaign trail are the people in the audience and that's we talk a lot about how people will rise and fall on gravitational pool of their presence and their performance in the states and that's my only point. not that we don't cover it. i agree with you, but we don't decide for the democratic primary voters. they have many months before they vote. we may be looking at an entirely new top tier by the time new hampshire votes. >> and it must be said despite the questions about, you know,

the gaps and so an his numbers have remained steady. they've closed a little bit in some of the early states and elizabeth warren has come on and that's what i was going to say last night was supposed to the biden versus warren showdown. didn't happen. there were no fireworks whatsoever and the warren campaign is they're happy where they are. >> i think if i'm elizabeth warren i'm happy with the way it went because we have to remember she came in with the momentum. she still is having the momentum. nobody really touched her. she had a pretty, you know, good solid debate and it's pretty much status quo. we are where we are. those three front runners are the three front runners. >> i felt like this way last and i watched some of the clips again this morning and i feel this way. i wonder if you agree. i said to rachel maddow who was walking out when i was walking in last night because we all do shift work, she hadn't seen it. she was on the air, that it was

like a swim meet. some had faster times than others but everyone stayed in their lane. but with buttgieg and beto, whether they translate to bigger states or some movement in the donor base, but they're the only ones that are second tier that may have seen any movement. >> they didn't have to attack anybody to have that movement. beto had his best debate i have seen and especially when he came to race and gun reform and you saw his -- the authenticity. you saw the beto of his senate race that we were all talking about. he was authentic. he was passionate. and it's kind of like he -- he knows what his space is and where -- what he's supposed to be doing and the gun reform thing is his thing and kudos to him. >> we'll talk about that next on the show. it's my sense that he found his voice after el paso and he hasn't lost it but buttgieg had

a moment for the opposite reasons to -- some of the best ed that julian's trstrategy flopped. >> he's not running on youth. he's running on i can do this. this is my position. he's 37 years old but you get the feeling that he really has a vision, he really has policies whether you agree with them or not. and he had some gravity and i think buttgieg had a very good night. >> me too. >> and i think beto had an excellent night. if beto of last night had showed up at the first debate i think we'd be looking at a different poll because he took everything on another level and that's how you win in my opinion, the public because they want to vote for you for a reason, not for any of the other profile things, i'm young, i'm old, i'm tall, i'm short. and especially when you're up against a guy like donald trump. >> i want to show you, i thought kamala harris had a good night.

she came after donald trump. she had a plan, she executed her plan. let me show the you the attacks on donald trump. there weren't as many as i thought there might be but there were some that seemed to break through. >> trump thinks that trade policy is a tweet at 3:00 in the morning. >> donald trump in office on trade policy, you know, he reminds me of that guy in the wizard of oz with you pull back the curtain it's a really small dude. >> it's a president who has a better relationship with ta dictators than he does with merkel and mac ron. >> she says build a wall i'm going to say to immigrants, come to america. >> there's enormous opportunities once we get rid of donald trump. >> on january 20th, 2021, at 12:01 p.m., we're going to have a democratic president, a

democratic house and a z democratic senate. there will be life after donald trump. >> i plan on focusing on our common issues, our common hopes and desires and in that way unifying our country, winning this election and turning the page for america and now president you can go back to watching fox news. >> pretty good. >> yeah, look. you're always going to score points when you're talking to a democratic audience about the failings of donald trump so i think it was necessary to do that. i don't think you can take the eye off the fact that this is a democratic primary though, and they need -- they do need to test each other and there's a way to do it and i think last night was better than the debate maybe two times ago, but for the castro moment. and whoever the nominee is already has the case to make against donald trump. he gives us the material every day to know why whoever gets out of the democratic primary will be a better president than donald trump has. what i would like to see these democratic candidates do in

those moments is demonstrate why they are presidential. don't just take the swipe at donald trump because it's a good sound byte. but demonstrate in that moment among friends and colleagues and among a democratic leaning audience why they can be presidential. we're getting to that point. >> who did that last night? >> i think you're seeing it -- it takes time. right? >> who's there now? >> i think elizabeth warren is getting there. you know, i think biden just because he was vice president, he naturally brings some of that. viewers are starting to see elizabeth warren as she may be our next president. bernie sanders has the large following. i'm not sure much of the contemporary constituency has made that pivot with bernie sanders yet but as we get deeper in this race they're each going to make that case and be seen as presidential. >> you agree sf. >> yeah, i do. actually what i was thinking about is the winner was obama because -- he got the memo.

yeah, the president to go after is donald trump not obama and i think that -- and you saw that. you saw the kind of the praise for president obama who is the most popular figure in the party and i think that's what i was thinking. that's who kind of won the night. >> amazing he lost one of those nights. beto o'rourke shakes up the gun debate in washington. did he go too far? an update to a story we showed you yesterday. lawyers for former deputy director of the fbi pressed doj for answers after prosecutors appeared to be on the verge of indicting mccabe and then didn't. and trump corruption watch, the latest on that air force scandal and new questions about conflicts of interest at a trump hotel. all those stories coming up. hotel. all those stories coming up.

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so just to underline it will be voluntary. it won't be hell yes, we'll come get your guns. >> no it's not voluntary. i want to make sure we make the distinction here. it is mandatory. it will be the law. you will be required to comply with the law. >> former texas congressman this morning not mincing words when it comes to what an beto

o'rourke administration would look like with assault weapons. >> if it's a weapon that was designed to kill people on a battlefield, if the high impact high velocity round when it hits your body shreds everything inside of your body because it was designed to do that so that you would bleed to death on a battlefield and not be able to get up and kill one of our soldiers, when we see that being used against children in odessa, i met the mother of a 15-year-old girl who was shot by an ar-15 and that motter watched her bleed to death over the course of an hour because so many other people were shot by that ar-15 in odessa and midland. there weren't enough ambulances to get to them in time. hell yes we're going to take your ar-15, your ak-47. we're not going to allow it to be used against fellow americans anymore. >> to many that was the moment of the night. garrett is back with us from

houston, texas. garrett, you stand as a reporter in the middle of i think the two biggest stories right now. this sort of surge in public profile, beto o'rourke getting his groove back, and the tragedy of the mass shootings in odessa and el paso, texas. what did you think personally when you saw that last night? >> look, i've spent the last six months on the road talking about to these candidates and talking to democratic primary voters and while orourk's comments scared some people the sense i get is he's squarely within the main stream of what democratic primary voters want to hear. you've got people literally chanting at politicians, do something. this is a very aggressive something. his answer on gun control doesn't get into the minutia of a filibuster of senate rules. he doesn't name mitch mcconnell. he doesn't talk about a background check bill that was defeated six years ago. he said we are going to do this

in a very aggressive and earnestly hart felt way. you cannot cover one of these shootings. i wasn't in el paso but i was in el paso and i've covered mass shootings before and not be personally affected by it. he sees something that connects viscerally with the people who could be electing him. he has struggled to capture what he does well on the debate stage but last night i think he sort of unlocked that and delivered that message in a way that rez flatsed with a lot of people. you heard it in the room and you've been hearing it all day on twitter and television from other folks who connected with it. >> he absolutely struck a cord. i think that was the emotion fall moment of the night. he has found his voice in wake of the el paso shootings. a campaign that had been scuffling along until then. it was very powerful. now, this cuts the other way too. there is this polling suggests democrats and republicans alike are favor of some gun control measures and i think there is a

real issue to ban these weapons of war as he so vividly described them last night. confiscating them is a different issue and that's the kind of thing that the nra and 2nd amendment believers have long feared. the whispers about the government is coming to take your guns away. in this case he is giving voice to that conspiracy theory. a lot of americans would have no problem with that but others would. as he was saying that last night saying this could be the opening line of a donald trump re-election ad. >> i don't know about that. here's the front page of his hometown paper el paso newspaper where coming back from a mass shooting in your community means that the debate that was on network television for more than two hours and in roadblock coverage on cable news doesn't make the front page. i think he's also giving voice to the story that dips in and out of the national news but when it's your first graders who were slaughters it doesn't go away and when it's somebody that you love it never goes away.

i was in the government on 9/11 and the patriot act changed everything. people that said that will never happen, i think what the country is probably looking at is has the clip, bad word. has the pace or the rate of mass shootings changed the policy debate around guns? and i don't know the answer but i'm not sure that if i'm donald trump's campaign i'm really going to go front and center about weapons of war being something we should keep available. >> and now gun reform is moving up in the polls as an issue that people truly care about. we have to understand, i -- i'm thankful to beto for doing that last night. because you have to understand in texas, just this summer there were two mass shootings. two mass shootings in one state just this summer. and i was just -- >> second one carried out over the entire state. >> that's exactly right. and i was just thinking this morning i got an e-mail in my inbox about a -- my five-year-old just started school last week and we got that e-mail, that e-mail about

there's going to be a lockdown drill next week. talk to your kid. and it's about imminent threat. if something happens this is what they should do. you know, go in a corner, i mean, this is what parents are getting day after day, week after week and this is really real for people. schools are not safe. schools are not safe. malls are not safe. theaters are not safe. movies are not safe, if you go to a movie it's not safe and so it is a real, real issue and so what we need now is a movement. and i think that's what beto is trying to lean into. it's like we need a movement. the parkland students tried to do it with march or you are olives and they got a lot of young people out in 2018. we need to build and we need a movement because that's the only way we're going to see shanchan. it's not going to ha p in washington, d.c. and if donald trump wants to use this as an issue i think it's a bad move. i think it's a stupid move. >> it cuts both ways.

>> all right. i want to say something else about beto's candidacy. he's rebooted a couple of times, got a lot of criticism after he was on the cover of vanity fair or whatnot. beto o'rourke seeks a reset. it was the second reboot. he seems to have landed on a three legged stool that's going to hold him up for the foreseeable future in taking on white nationalism which was sort of the intersection of the murderer in el paso and donald trump's more racist rhetoric. this idea that the immigration policies of donald trump are cruel, that staking out a position more to the center of some other democratic candidates in that presidential primary and then on guns, you know, speaking bluntly, swearing sometimes, saying to the media, why do you ask question i don't say i know

the answer to. i mean, he seems to be standing on a more solid base than any other time in the presidential primary. >> i absolutely think he has done that and i think that even braising this about confiscating guns brings the issue dead center in the presidential race. and i agree the parkland students and others had built this ground in the public but it was not front and center in the democratic primaries. everybody was giving their regular nice statements about we need reform. he hit it right on the head. it's going to have to be debated. i don't know that i'm all the way comfortable with how we're going to confiscate because i'm wondering about stop and frisk, the racial disparities when they go into people's home but i want the debate. i thank him for bringing that on and i think that is what lit up that crowd last night and i think that is how you run for president. you've got to make it about more than you. and more than your resume and beto has done that with that

three legged stool that you're talking about. >> the whole campaign staff are talking. >> immigration and dealing with white soupremacy he has made hi campaign more about about beto. as lodge as it was beto on the vanity fair cover it was about him. when you represent something bigger than you then people have to argue about that raeter than you and i think that's the mistake a lot of candidates make. they act as though they're in a beauty pageant rather than running to be head of the free world and what that would look like if they win. >> i want to get garrett back in. you thought you had thoughts about beto's performance. >> the single most compelling moment of the night with that and for two reasons. first, it was bold and people like bold leadership. there's a reason bernie sanders economic plan and elizabeth warren's economic plans resonate it's because they're bold. donald trump when he stood on the debate stage and said i don't know if i'll support them but it was bold. what we saw last night was bold leadership and the second thing

was he was shaping public opinion. john kennedy said we're going to the moon not because it's easy but because it's hard. president obama said it's going to enact obama care. and beto said you know what, everybody else go to hell, i'm going to fundamentally clang the culture of guns on demand. follow me and i'll make it happen. a perfect moment for beto. >> this is where i wanted to end with you and david said it better than i was going to in my sleep deprived state. bernie sanders and elizabeth viewed outside the main stream of the democratic party. now they're two of the front runners. in every big delate it's been a voice outside of washington that's had the biggest impact on said debate in washington. >> reporter: i'll tell you something that surprised me. i interviewed four of the candidates running to take on

john cornyn for the texas senate race. three of them, three other democrats told me they support a mandatory buy back program. this is not like a this suicide pact texas policy here. this is something that other democrats are willing to run on in state where people own more guns than in any other state. i did talk to beto o'rourke about this, the how to get this done. he said look, i'm counting on people to follow the law. people would have the opportunity to exchange these weapons for money but there's not going to be a lot of people coming to your house to demand a gun back if you don't turn it over. there is no federal accounting for how many of these weapons even exist in circulation right now but it would become an illegal items that you have in your home just like machine guns are illegal even now. so i don't think is as politically risky. i think orourk will change a second amendment activist still

thinking about voting for him in a democratic primary or general for a suburban mom who doesn't want to get that e-mail about their kid having to go through active shooter drills when they go back to school. >> we're getting those e-mails anyway but i think you're right about how those voters break out. my thanks for joining us. after the break lawyers for former deputy fbi director andrew mccabe are looking for answers today. asking the justice department if a grand jury that heard evidence in the case refused to indict the man who opened the full investigation into donald trump. that story next. donald trump. that story next. but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. from the day you're born if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock.

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an update today to a story brought to you at the top of this hour yesterday. andrew mccabe, former deputy director of the fbi who took over when jim comey was fired standing by this week for news that he might be indicted about

whether he lied to inspector general. it was an unusual case to bring. cases are usually handled internally and that might explain making public that the barr justice department could indeed sick mccabe's prosecution, there's at least for now radio silence. mccabe's lawyers sending this letter. we heard rumors from reporters starting this morning that the grand jury considering charges against mr. mccabe had declined to vote an indictment. we do not know the specific bases for the rumors but they were credible enough that both the new york times and washington post published stories suggesting the grand jury may decline to vote in favor of charges. harry litman seeks the significance for what mcgabe's lawyers. the grand jury's refusal to

return an indictment is something that happens maybe once every five years in a given office. if it occurred here given the magnitude of visibility of the mccabe case it's a stunning rebuke for overreaching and playing politics. more on this, mike schmidt from the "new york times" is here and matt miller a former spokesman for the department of justice. mike, start by telling us where this story is 24 hours later. this letter that i read from was sent by mccabe's lawyer to the justice -- or to the u.s. attorney's office today trying to get clarity from what they describe as press rumors that a grand jury may have voted not to indict mccabe. >> yeah, and that's where it is. it it's in the same place it was. what we're seeing here is the problems with the politics that the president has created around the investigation. criminal investigations are very complicated. sometimes things get messed up at the end. that sort of -- that can happen. that's not unusual. but because there is a

perception issue here with the president has been so vocal about the fact that he wants this person to be prosecuted and for the justice firm to go after him it allows all these questions to come in, to say well, what's really going on here, is there something larger afoot? and it's theish issue of the perception may be worse than the reality and it sort of takes the entire justice department again and it thrusts it out into the front and people can say, well, what's really going on here? why didn't they return this? sometimes criminal invest gaugss are complicated but i don't think anyone certainly one half of the country is going to give the justice department the benefit of the doubt. >> matt miller, donald trump might not give the justice department the benefit of the doubt. he made clear that he wanted mccabe fired and jeff sessions fired mccabe. he made clear he thought mccabe had committed treason. andy mccabe all week i'm told was prepared for the possibility or the prospect of an indictment.

what does it say that everything that people on both sides of this was prepared for so far hasn't come to pass? >> you know, i think the problem with this case, i disagree with mike just a little bit which is something i rarely want to do and i think that the problem with this case is more than the perception. it's the reality. if it wasn't for the politics around this investigation, if it wasn't for the president's demand that andy mccabe be fired and that he be investigated and that he be prosecuted i don't think this case would be anywhere near this stage m i don't think he would have been fired shortly before his retirement and i don't think he would have been gotten this close to indictment. it would have been handled like most normal cases are. and i think look, we don't know what happened in the grand jury yesterday but it is very strange that the department has been so quiet about this with mccabe's attorneys and that they -- it seems clear mccabe's attorneys clearly think that something happened yesterday. that the department went into this grand jury expecting to walk out with an indictment and they didn't get it and i think by sending this letter to the department and releasing it

publicly, you know, they're trying to add a little noise in the system and see if there's someone inside the department who doesn't like the way this case is being handled who's willing to speak up and say so publicly, maybe pick up the phone and call a rt reporter and tell them what happened and they're trying to shine some light on how weak this case is from the beginning. if you can't convince a grand jury. there's an old saying that a prosecutor can get a grand jury to indict a ham sandwich and it's not far from the truth. if you can't get an indictment in this case, the idea that you would ever take it to trial is bananas. >> let me show you how andy mac k mccabe described the accusations when he was on the show. >> one of the unexplainable steps that they took was at some point the -- their investigation of me over these disclosures, authorized disclosures to the wall street journal was cleaved off from the larger investigation and i believe

rushed forward to try to reach some sort of a conclusion before i could retire. >> joyce, is that the kind of thing that might give a grand jury pause if they heard that? >> you know, yeah, i don't know that that will give a grand jury pause and of course the grand jury wouldn't get to hear former director mccabe's side of the story. what the grand jury hears is the prosecution's side of the story and the prosecution's side of the evidence. so although a lot of the process here was very irregular, this sort of a candor finding against an agent is something that would be revolved as an employment matter. if it's true the grand jury rejected this case it's because the government didn't even have probable cause to move forward as opposed to the sort of proof beyond a reasonable doubt they would need at trial to convict. and let me explain and say that probable cause, what prosecutors have to prove to a grand jury to

get an indictment is a very low standard compared to what they need at trial and if you have trouble convincing the grand jury as a prosecutor, you need to seriously rethink your case because you're in trouble. >> the lawyers for mccabe have sued over his firing calling it politically motivated with some anecdotal evidence i think that overlaps with your reporting on the trump justice department. they wrote this. trump demanded mccabe's personal allegiance. he sought retaliation when he refused to give it and sessions and others served as trump's enforcers caughtering to trump's unlawful whims instead of honoring their oaths to uphold the constitution. i believe we learned from the new york times that trump did want jeff sessions and the justice department to prosecute jim comey and hillary clinton and it was his own white house counsel that stopped that. is that the overlay that

complicates these cases? >> totally. and if were to go to a jury, certainly many you're mccabe's bla lawyers you would want this to be seen in that per smektive. is this part of the political story of what's going on? and for them they probably say in washington, d.c. that's a pretty good argument for us. not a lot of people that are going to give donald trump the benefit of the doubt, people that are probably going to be skeptical of what the president has said around this, and may look at this in a political light more so than any other type of criminal investigation. >> matt miller people have brought up the craig trial as an example of just that. what's the connection between the two cases? >> you know, so the department just brought this case against greg craig and i think that it was a case that you know, was probably tough on the merits but you have to look at where you're bringing the case as well and d.c. is a democratic town, a majority democratic city and it was clear from the comments of some of the jurors after that verdict which you know, was -- which acquitted craig that some

of the jurors didn't like the choices the department made with all of the corruption, you know, in the trump administration and basically said this that they would go after greg craig so the idea that right after that trial with the same jury pool that you've lost a case that has nowhere near the same kind of arguments about retaliation. trump was never going after craig the way he was going after mccabe. i think it's something most prosecutors would shy away from. >> the day's trump corruption news contains new details about his old conflict of interest. w his old conflict of interest like new sriracha-honey shrimp, savory grilled teriyaki shrimp, classic shrimp scampi and more! red lobster's endless shrimp is $15.99. hurry in. ♪ ♪ award winning interface. ♪ ♪ award winning design.

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and it should not be given to children 6 to less than 18, it may harm them. do not take linzess if you have a bowel blockage. get immediate help if you develop unusual or severe stomach pain, especially with bloody or black stools. the most common side effect is diarrhea, sometimes severe. if it's severe, stop taking linzess and call your doctor right away. other side effects include gas, stomach area pain, and swelling. i'm still doing it all. the water. the exercise. the fiber. and i said yesss to linzess for help with belly pain and recurring constipation. ask your doctor. it's probably costing me from $3 billion to $5 billion. if you're wealthy, it doesn't matter. i just want to do a great job. i don't care. i want to do the right job. >> that's the donald trump we know. the good-hearted philanthropist being president out of the goodness of his heart. his absurd estimate, the $3 billion to $5 billion in

losses due to his presidency aside, there are questions today about whether he's actually profiting off the presidency. today a federal appeals court resurrected a lawsuit alleging trump is profiting from the presidency. let's check in on those headlines. in the last 24 hours, how about this at his d.c. hotel. "the washington post" reports mike pence and mike pompeo were booked by a nonprofit conservative group to speak at separate events there this week raising concerns that their appearances drove revenue to the company president's company. don't forget that's the same trump property where attorney general william barr booked a $30,000 holiday party. and there's trump's resort near miami. you might remember he recently suggested it would be the next location for the g-7 summit. across the atlantic, there's the resort in scotland. politico published the preliminary results of an air force review which revealed air crews have lodged there 40 times

since 2015, far higher than previously known. we're not done yet. at ireland's doonbeg resort shows mike pence's bizarre decision to stay there cost taxpayers nearly $600,000 in ground transportation fees to and from dublin, all while pay to stay at a trump property. everyone is back. i'm coming for you. >> he's a corrupt man running a corrupt administration and no doubt documents will demonstrate that donald trump or people around him have ordered that people do business at his properties. why would we think otherwise? last week he directed his commerce secretary turn noaa scientists upside down defending one of the president's tweets. we were just talking about mccabe. this is a president who had his attorney general land the plane on the mueller report and lie to the american people. this is a president who had his

spokesperson, sarah sanders, go out before the election and say there were isis members in the caravans coming across the southwest border. donald trump is definitely directing federal business be done on his property. that's an kmoult -- emoluments clause violation. a constitutional violation, not a stature one. when house minority leader kevin mccarthy says earlier this week, i don't see any difference from going to the marriott or the trump hotel -- >> well, he might get into the hotel business. give him time. >> kevin mccarthy is either being a cold-stone sycophant corrupt person on behalf of the president or he's ignorant. he doesn't control the house, but democrats do. democrats on this and everything else need to record for history that this is a constitutional violation. if they fail to do so, then none of this means anything. >> congress got the mueller report, they did nothing. congress now has a steady drip of investigative reports about corruption, seeming corruption,

in every corner of the government. do you think congress will act differently? >> what you laid out and what you laid out at the top sort of illustrates, i think, why trump has been able to succeed in this environment. there are so many different things that have come up that people would say would sink any other president. but in this case, there's no real tip of the sphere because there are so many spheres and there are so many questions. instead of focusing on one of the things you listed, you listed ten different things. you listed several at the top. >> do we need an editor? >> we're not talking about one issue. even on obstruction, you get the mueller report. you look at the mueller report. there's all these different instances, different flavors and shades of his behavior. it's hard to get the average american to concentrate on one of them. let alone one of the issues. >> joyce, i'll give you the last word. >> you know, i think that's dead on the money.

one death is a tragedy, 200 deaths is a statistic. what we have with the trump administration is so many misconduct on so many fronts that it's been very difficult for americans to know what to focus on. people don't always all focus on the same problem at the same time. that's congress' job. congress is has now passed rules that allows them to move forward with watergate-style hearings, with professional staff doing questioning of witnesses next week, including corey lewandowski and dearborn, both of whom worked for trump. we need to circle around one major instance or several major instances and decide whether this president really does live up to the oath he took. >> joyce vance, matt miller, thank you so much for spending time with us. we'll sneak in our last break. we'll be right back. brands recommend cascade platinum. it's specially-designed with the soaking, scrubbing and rinsing

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what a week it was. my thanks to all of you. most of all, thanks to you for watching. that does it for our hour. i'll see you here for deadly white house at 4:00 p.m. the joker is wild. let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. well, two events last night, 1,200 miles apart showcased the dramatic difference between the democrats and donald trump. in houston the top ten democrats met for their third debate jousting to become their party's candidate in 2020. meanwhile republican members of congress met in baltimore to hear from their party's unchallenged leader. it was a battle for america's attention from a president who can't stand a moment from the spotlight.