because i've been able to be part of music making with people of all different chul wrulture, different creeds. >> you can hear more about how she uses her work in civil rights at msnbc.com/mavericks for the full interview. chris matthews i should say is up next. who's that you're talking to? let's play hardball. good evening. i'm chris matthews from washington. a troubling private conversation between president trump and a foreign leader has rung such an alarm bell that the intelligence committee's internal watchdog calls it an urgent concern. "the washington post" was the first to report that a whistle-blower complaint filed over this summer involves president trump's communications

with a foreign leader. their conversation included a promise that was regarded as so troubling that it prompted an official in the u.s. intelligence community to file a formal whistle-blower complaint with the inspector general. and now the whistle-blower's complaint is the subject of a bitter public dispute between the congress which is entitled by law to see it and it director of national intelligence who's withholding it. and while the identity of the foreign leader is still unknown, nbc news today confirmed that the communication described in the complaint was a phone conversation. nbc news is working a complete list of the president's phone calls and has so far confirmed that he spoke with at least nine different world leaders during the relevant time period including a call with ukraine's president on july 25th of this year and one with vladimir putin on the 31st. the whistle-blower complaint was filed on august 12th. the inspector general of the intelligence committee deemed the whistle-blower's complaint

credible and troubling enough to be considered a matter of urgent concern. urgent concern is the phrase. a legal threshold that requires notification of oversight committees on capitol hill. however, acting director of national intelligence joseph maguire has refused to turn over the complaint to the hearings. he told congress the complaint contains confidential and potentially privileged information. adam schiff who issued a subpoena for the complaint on friday is crying foul. >> i believe that there is an effort to prevent this information getting to congress, and if the assertion is accurate and the department of justice has made and the dni has affirmed this involves a potentially privileged communication that at one level or another it likely involves

either the president or the people around him. >> well, schiff's committee met today with inspector atkinson. he's bound by orders of his superior not to. i'm joined by congressman danny heck of washington state, and contributor mulligan has held senior positions in the doj, and the office of director of national intelligence itself. let me start with ken our guy. this had to have reached a threshold, urgent concern. what would that embody that would cause the inspector general's office to get ahold of a complaint that reaches to the level of urgency and should be law be told to congress immediately. >> there's actually a legal definition. it's supposed to involve intelligence activities and it's extremely rare because there's a lot of complaints that go into that office. very few of them are deemed urgent concerns. and when he made that determination to the inspector general that should have

triggered, and he was saying i wanted to turn this over and i was blocked by doing so by acting maquire. it was a doj ruling that said there's some privileged communications here. since it's about the president that's understandable. the president's conversations with foreign leaders are not the business of congress and particularly not the congressional intelligence committee's, and adam schiff is saying how can that be the case if we have a whistle-blower who is an intelligence officer who's saying i saw something really inappropriate here. we've got to know about it. and no one i've talked to have ever heard of this happening in the history of our country. >> your reaction to this story because you're being denied the actual fact of the complaint because we know it's in the hands of obviously the whistle-blower himself or herself, in the hands of the

inspector general and the folks over at doj, william barr, don't want this out. >> so kim's right, no one has ever heard of this happening before because the simple truth of the matter, chris, is it hasn't happened before. listen, we should remember the intelligence community whistle-blower protection act is designed to keep america safer. and if president is allowed to stand then we will all be less safe. it's designed to ensure that a whistle-blower can come forward and may discover credible evidence of a abuse, a serious or flagrant violation of the law with respect to intelligence activities and that they will not be retaliated against. now, of course, if the subject of this complaint is allowed to quash it, that person is no longer incentivized to come forward with the truth. and more over, frankly, it creates a perverse incentive perhaps for somebody, ala edward

snowden to bring forth through public channels inappropriately information that may compromise methods and procedures. america is less safer tonight if this pres dependent is allowed to stand, pure and simple. >> there's talk of according to our logs the information we've been able to get that he talked to putin, talked to the president of ukraine. do we know whether this pardon involves partisan behavior by the president or what sort of intrigue is at work here? >> i think it's important to remember there's still a lot we don't know. >> we know there's a promise involved here. >> we know there's a promise involved but there's a lot of information we don't have and we should be cautious. there are serious allegations here and they should be treated very seriously. but there are a couple of things we know are not the case. we know this isn't purely a difference of opinion pertaining to public policy because pursuant to the definition in the statute, that's expressly

excluded from being defined as an urgent concern. so we know as some have speculated that the president has all the freedom in the world to make public policy, that cannot be what's essentially at issue here. >> well, the president today had an odd sort of would have, could have attitude. it's a strange kind of denial. trump today he dismissed the whistle-blower's complaint saying it's unthinkable he would have been caught doing what the complaint describes. quote, first of all any time i speak on the phone with a foreign leader i understand there may be many people listening from various agencies not to mention those from the other country itself. knowing all this is anybody dumb enough to believe i would say something inappropriate with a foreign leader while in such a potentially heavy populated call. i would only do what is right anyway. that's a weird kind of denial. by the way, why if it's not really dangerous why is william

barr, why would he want to keep it secret? why does this president want to keep it secret? because a two second call and william barr it would be behind him. >> we know donald trump doesn't necessarily know when he's doing something inappropriate. he gave away classified code word information to the russian ambassador then oval office that his aides had to cleanup. he's been cavalier with intelligence right along. so it's completely credible he would say something he didn't realize was improper and a career official flagged. it's not a disagreement or something the official thought was stupid. it's something that compromise the national security of the united states. >> the fact the whistle-blower believed this was a matter of urgent concern, and number two the attorney general of the united states who serves this president rather well i must say in a negative way, he looks out for him and doesn't want us to know about it. that's two levels of urgent concern as far as i'm concerned. >> well, in addition to that, chris, he also said that there

was credible evidence to establish this urge want concern. so on every level there's reason for concern, frankly. >> well, in a letter chairman schiff on tuesday, inspector general michael atkinson wrote i have now determined the director of national intelligence and i are at an impass over this issue of releasing this complaint to congress. he emphasized the subject matter involved in the complaint relates to one of the most significant dni's responsible for the american people which of course would be national security. >> that's powerful language. this is the inspector general appointed by trump, confirmed by the senate. he's a career justice appointment lawyer. he's totally neutral in this. he's saying it's central to the mission of the top intelligence agency, and the idea that congress can't have that information, a lot of people are going to have a problem with that. >> this story popped in "the

washington post" this morning, katrina. and the very top of the newspaper today so a lot of editorial judgments in this, too, but the best newspaper which covers the federal government, which is "the washington post," they think this is huge the fact the editors have decided to put it up there at the top. the fact the inspector general thought it was big enough to go to congress and he's fighting his dni, the director of national intelligence over this. the fact barr is hiding this thing, there are a lot of alarm bells going off here. >> i i think it's important to emphasize the statute here doesn't authorize the dni or the acting dni in this case to overturn the judgment of the icig, and that's a serious concern. the other thing i think is worth emphasizing here is that there hasn't actually been a privilege claim asserted to my knowledge. there's potential priv l claim, but until it's asserted it's not operative and i think arguably it puts the acting dni in a pretty tough spot.

if i'm joan maguire tonight i'm wonder if i can find a way out of this before testifying in open hearing next week. >> i'm thinking russia, i'm thinking putin because he andputep have a lot of history together, a lot of means and we all know a back and forth relationship and the fact it might involve a promise. there's also the ukrainian president who might have information on who knows who, perhaps the biden. there's lots of speculation about this all around town that this may be a partisan move by the president uncovered by a career bureaucrat who said presidents shouldn't be using intelligence, communication with foreign leaders for partisan negative opo. >> three quick things, chris. first of all who said what to whom matters and it is important. but i'm still going to maintain and assert it is secondary to the violation of the

whistle-blower protection act which keeps us all safe. and secondly, we should not assume because we really do not know what this is -- we do not know what this is, but we should not assume it was simply an act of the president sharing classified information with a foreign leader because he possesses the authority to declassify material. therefore, if it was him and we don't know, it's probably something else. and thirdly, of a serious nature, of a flagrant nature, that's the law. and thirdly, i think we just have to stop and pause here. what inspector general michael atkinson did is frankly a mini act befitting of profiles in courage. it was hard for him to stand up, write that letter and seek to up hold the law in the cop text of the way this administration acts and it should be acknowledged as sup. what i'm worried about is that the character assassination is about to begin of this career public servant.

>> not going to start here i can tell you, congressman. a member of the intelligence committee of the house, ken dilanian as always we rely on you, sir. coming up the bombshell whistle-blower complaint is the latest and perhaps more serious potential example of trump's mishandling of sensitive national information. so what can congress or anyone else do about this mishandling? plus democrats are still waiting for republicans to agree on anything, anything on gun control. despite the urgency of the situation the president says he's taking it slow until we forget about it, i guess. congressman hakem jeffries is coming and joins us soon tonight. we've got much more to get to. stay with us. ght. we've got much more to get to. stay with us let's be honest, insurance can feel a little outdated.

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♪ go where my baby lives b[ growl ]olle♪s good boy. hey. hey. you must be steven's phone. know who's on your network and control who shouldn't be with xfinity xfi. simple. easy. awesome. welcome back to "hardball." as the leader of the free world president trump has access of course to the country's deepest

and most guarderd secrets and every morning he's handed intelligence updates in covert programs, surveillance, current cyber attacks and new foreign secrets. the president is supposed to be the guardian of all that stuff, all those top secrets. traditionally unauthorized disclosure is seen as a serious breach of security causing exceptionally grave damage to our country. it's within that context according to "the washington post" that an individual once working in the staff of the national white house security council was so troubled by this president's behavior that he or she felt compelled to blow the whistle on the leader of it free world. president trump brushed off those reports today by tweeting is anybody dumb enough to believe i would say anything inappropriate with a foreign leader? i think a lot of people would. trump's handling of classified information has been a source of ongoing concern. in april of 2017, for example, trump shared the location of two nuclear submarines to the president of the philippines, a

secret so guarded it's kept from navy command. in may of 2017 "the washington post" reported that the president actually discussed classified information provided by u.s. ally i think it was israel with russian minister sergei lavrov and sergei kislyak. in july of 2017 "the washington post" reported during a private meeting with vladimir putin president trump took the unusual step of confiscating and keeping his interpreter's notes. in other words, they were keeping notes of what he said and putin said so he made sure to kill all that stuff. in july 2018, actually, june, president trump publicly opposed the cia using informants against north korea. just last month the president tweeted a reportedly classified image of recent damage to an iranian testing missile site. for more i'm joined by mieke eoyang, and edward mcmullen a cia operative.

what do you make of this? we've been talking about it but it seems to be a pattern. not just sloppily but reckless with information, they could do damage to our forces overseas, all kinds of our international relations. he doesn't seem to care about being careful. >> yes, not only does he not care, he doesn't care if the people around him aren't careful. we went through this with the security clearances. a number of people in his white house, they were recommended to not be suitable for holding classified information. >> like jared. >> right. and they got clearances anyway. he just does not take the security of american information that is central in the way we expect presidents will do based on the entire history. >> the word is out that our people know he's been manipulated. the former secretary of state

wrote in this book this president has been played by -- played is the term -- by bibi. >> whatever is happening here has got to be more than simply the president being a little loose with national security intelligence secrets because that's been going on for some time. i think that's sort of priced into the experience with president trump. not only in the country broadly but also inside the intelligence community. that's something they would try to manage internally. >> why is he there with those goes? there's nothing wrong with having fun but he seems closer to them than he does our intelligence community. the russians. >> there has to be some angle of personal interest -- this intelligence whistle-blower i think had to see something in the president's engagement with the foreign power or with foreign powers that was going beyond all possible doubt simly the president sharing too much. it had to be, i think, some

action in which the president was acting to serve his own interests. i just say this because you could imagine the president, this whistle-blower apparently talked about a commitment or promise to a foreign power. you could imagine a american president for example talking to angela merkel in germany and saying, look, if you'll put in 2,000 more troops in afghanistan we'll help you on this initiative at the u.n. or something like that, making a commitment or promise like that. that's normal. its in the nation's interest. we might debate over the wisdom of that policy, but it's within the realm of normal. what i think i may be happening here is the president may be taking some action in which he was serving himself rather than the country. or personal. >> what do you think is on the play here in terms of this -- because for a whistle-blower, we all know how -- the thing about working for the government your whole life is you don't make as much money as some other people, but you have a life career and

you don't throw that out the window, you try to work through retitle, try to have a good life, a secure existence. to throw that up in the air and say i'm going to risk all this because i just heard the president say i've got to act. >> you have to understand about the intelligence community is they are very, very sensitive to the idea that anybody would handle classified information as being bought by a foreign power. personally enriched by an overseas interest and they look out for that very carefully. when you're being paid off by a foreign power to do something or to provide information. so if there's a sense that the president is being personally enriched in these conversations, that's the kind of thing that makes people very nervous. >> it could be political. and financial is certainly true. it could be political, it could be both. i'm sorry to interrupt, but i agree with that, that it has to be something more than just sharing of intelligence. >> and they would smell the difference immediately. >> yeah.

it would be alarming to them because mieke and i come from the intelligence world in one way or another, and i'll tell you that when you make a commitment or a promise in that world, that means something. and if you're doing it clearly in the interest of the country, that's something a president does. but if it's in your own interests, that's a compromising act. you've compromised yourself to make a promise or a commitment to a foreign power to serve yourself. and that would send off all kinds of alarm bells. >> trump says the president of the united states said today, mieke, i would never do that because i know people are listening. it's not a denial. >> it's not a denial. and look, if that's really true he didn't do anything wrong, then there's nothing wrong with sharing this allegation because what you'll find out, in fact, it's normal. >> if that's true he's clean on this, why is the dni, national intelligence keeping it quiet? why is the attorney general,

william barr blowing a whistle to keep it quiet? kevin mccarthy was asked about the reports president trump was somehow involved in this whistle-blower case. here's what kevin had to say. >> this is not something i'd ever see the president doing and instead of jump to conclusions i'd actually get the facts first. >> that's careful. not denying it. >> absolutely. people have learned their lessons with this president, but i'd say, sure, let's get the facts absolutely. but part of getting the facts would be the administration allowing the whistle blowers complaints to go to congress where the facts should be. >> journalistic question to you, and i mean spooks in the best possible way, will this be bottom of the fold tomorrow or top of the fold? >> when this is an urge want concern and credible the underlying matter is a big deal. >> i'll go with that. up next congressional democrats and republicans are still

waiting for a response from president trump to the democratic leaders office on background checks. they put a firm offer to him right on the table. give us background checks we'll be at the ceremony with you, and he won't respond. is trump stalling for time or could something actually be coming together behind closed doors? i'm skeptical. you should be, too. you're watching "hardball." tica. you should be, too you're watching "hardball. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪ should always be working harder.

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on tuesday night if you heard anymore, have you heard anymore since then? >> we heard through staff he's still working on it, he's going to call us when he's ready but we haven't heard directly from the president. >> that was house speaker nancy pelosi of course this morning saying she's still waiting for the president's response on her offer they gave over the weekend. it was on sunday the two democrats in congress spoke to the president and said if he would support the universal background check legislation already passed in the house they'll join him in the rose garden for a signing ceremony. well, that legislation would not bar anyone from buying a gun. it's not a gun control bill. it simply says you have to pass a background check to buy one.

trump hadn't responded to the democrats offer but says he's working on a proposal slowly. let's watch. >> we're told your justice department a couple of weeks aghoe gave you a legislative package. you might move on it thursday. >> no, we're not moving on anything. we're going very slowly in one way because we want to make sure it's right. we're working with the democrats, the republicans. >> you heard it from the president's own mouth there, we're not moving on anything. that's operative. for more i'm joined by congressman hakeem jeffries of new york. do you believe the president will produce anything on gun safety, anything? >> that's not clear. that's a great question, chris. it's time for us to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk. americans are dying being massacred, mass shootings are taking place. you have day to day violence occurring in parts of new york

city, chicago and los angeles and all points in between. the american people are demanding action. the house acted bypassing universal criminal background check ledgeilation 204 days ago in february and the bill has been languishing in the senate. mitch mccomneeds to do his job, the president needs to do his job. the american people are overwhelmingly supportive of criminal background checks including republicans, independents and gun owners. >> who's the boss just in street terminology? who's the boss? the president of the united states or wayne lepierre of the national gun rights association? >> that's interesting because every time you have a tragedy that's occurred and the president suggests he's willing to do something on gun violence prevention, particularly as it relates to moving on legislation already ready made to go on behalf of the american people in the form of hra, our universal

criminal background check bill, a few days later he's either visited or receives a call from wayne lepierre and he backs up. so there's a question the american people have to ask. is donald trump working for us, or is he working for the nra. and only he can provide a definitive answer to that by deciding it's time to move forward and get something done. >> well, and the president seems to be pushing back now against his own attorney general. he's been circulating a gun reform proposal to members of the congress. the proposal obtained by nbc news is similar to the failed mantion toomey bill which extends background checks to all commercial sales including gun shows but would not go as far as the house bill which includes private sales. no coincidence the nra also apos that proposal. i guess, i have a sense you're the politician, congressman, and a good one. i've got to ask you this president seems scared to death

it'd be something like the first george bush when he came out for something like tax increases and he got beaten when he broke his promise. he seems to be scared to death to lose his virginity on this question in saying i'm for gun control. people amazing him in these pictures at these rallies won't like him anymore. what's your thinking? >> he's clearly an insecure man and it's strange because he can engage in all manner of outrageous behavior, abnormal behavior, criminality and these folks don't leave him. so why would this president be concerned if he did something reasonable and be supported by 90% of the american people on background check legislation and all of a sudden on this particular issue decide to abapden him. so that is going to fall squarely on him if he decides to proceed with this inaction.

more than 8,000 americans have lost their lives as a result of gun violence since we passed hra in february. so that is going to fall on moskow mitch mitch in the senate and president trump. >> while president trump usually enjoys being in the spotlight he's been making the case if democrats continue to investigate his business dealings, they should also look into the deals his predecessor has made since leaving office. the reporters asked trump what he thinks the congressional investigate of president obama's deals with netflix and his book publishing would find, and the president said, well, it was a very substantial deal. plus the book was the highest book ever sold, the highest book ever said, whatever english that is, and there were other thing he did. so i think somebody should if they're going to be looking at me over nonsense, they should be looking at. michelle obama, the former first lady has had the most successful

book in nonfiction history. she sold 10 million copies that people wanted to read and paid for. the company made a rough estimate almost $200 million off her book. the deal with both of the obamas was 65. how could he claim there was hanky-panky here when the book publishing has claimed there's a killing on this book. what's the intrigue here? i don't get it. your thoughts, congressman. >> it's very strange, and i think it is consist with the envy that he has repeatedly showed at barack obama's successful presidency, the eloquence and majesty of the partnership between him and michelle obama and the fact that they've had some success thereafter because the american people recognize that they are authentically good individuals who care about and love this country. they're private citizens right now. the president should stop the misdirection. >> what's that about?

you say envy, and i wonder is it that simply he's got a better rep than i do, he's a better person than me, he's going to go down in the history books pretty well, i'm not going to look so good? where would you put it? political, moral, manly, macho, what is it we're talking about here? >> i think all of the above. but most importantly president obama was able to accomplish a variety of different things for the american people including historic health care reform. the only thing donald trump has gotten done is the gop tax scam where 83% of the benefits wept to the wealthy 1%. he's done nothing on infrastructure, to improve the wage stagnation problem americans have in this country, done nothing on prescription drug pricing even we are willing to be partners in that regard and we've promised to drive down health care costs and find assistance in the senate and

white house to do so. wheen while president trump obama is revered and president trump can't take that. >> u.s. congressman hakeem jeffries in the beautiful bull row of brooklyn, good to have you on, sir. one of our best guests, ever. well, trump's 2020 re-election is coming into focus with fresh attacks on blue states. baltimore, places like that, l.a., the spotlight -- there he is down at the border wall, mr. border wall. you're watching "hardball." , mr border wall. you're watching "hardball. ♪ ♪ ♪

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump capped his two day visit to california by polishing his re-election argument iptypical trump fashion, promoting his vaulted wanted border wall. the ball was the backdrop for his only public appearance in california, even signed his name to one of the steel slats of his signature campaign promise.

there he is. in an interview with fox news he went onto brag about the quality. >> we had in a couple of cases championship mountain climbers and tested various walls. you have to have the see through ability otherwise you don't know whonz t who's on the other side. they were unable to get over this wall. >> it's just one part of his argument of course he's been showcasing lately. he continued his attack on san francisco saying he'd issue an environmental notice to the city over his homeless problem. he told reporters they're in serious violation and they'd have to clean it up. in that interview with fox, however, he was asked if he was ready for his 2020 challenger. >> you feel good about your standing and the economy? >> i really think my standing is the best its been. we had a poll today 51% and that's despite all the fake news

and i say the democrats and the media really are like one. they're as if one. but i think that we're probably doing the best we've done. >> what poll is that? 51% of a majority vote, we haven't found that ipany objective poll for the last three years. but the numbers don't back up the president's confidence, and real numbers that's coming up next. numbers that's coming up next you know, baker, i can help you with -- with that. oh, no, it's fine. thanks, though. a man should cut his own lawn. [ lawnmower engine rattling ] [ engine starts ] it's how we bring hope to our patients- like viola. her team treated her cancer and strengthened her spirit. so viola could focus on their future.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump says his standing is the best its been looking ahead to 2020. but a new poll from fox news suggests otherwise. the polls show vice president joe biden widening his lead over president trump in a hypothetical head to head by 14 points. 52 a solid majority against 38%. the prez also loses by 8 points to bernie sanders and 6 points to elizabeth warren and also harris, kamala harris beats him by a couple of points. it's all negative for him. in that same poll when asked if the president would be reelected, here's the interesting conundrum here, you ask the same people who's going to win, look at this one, 46%, a big shift from december of last year say he's going to win. by the way, that's what i keep hearing all the time. for more i'm joined by a couple of experts, campaign director for the center of american progress cap action fund,

michael, as a once and true forever republican people think your party candidate and they will be your party's candidate is going to win no matter all the numbers against him? >> it reminds me of my 2006 senate race in which we had two questions back-to-back in the poll. first question, would you vote for a black man for the united states senate? 70% of the respondents said yes. would your neighbor vote for a black man for the u.s. senate? >> 43% said yes. and what this poll shows and tells me is that people are lying, that more people are going to vote for trump than they're telling you they're going to vote for these other candidates. so when you start to look at the numbers the only way you can begin to put them in context when they say i'm voting for him but the other guy is going to win -- >> you have plenty of time here. articulate this, why would people -- i have a theory but

why would people say to a pollster something that's not true? >> well, as we've seen now for several cycles what people have -- what a lot of folks out there have concluded is they do not want to be put in a position where they're judged by someone else. if i say i'm supporting president trump then you will automatically presume i'm a white nationalist or racist. so if you ask me if buttigieg beats trump, yeah, he beats trump. if the next question is do you think trump is going to win, yeah trump's going to win. you know why trump's going to win? i'm voting for him. you've got to be careful, one, with national polls and how they're questioned and work together. two, look at the states. >> why do people say they're for a democratic candidate for top four for trump but then you ask the same people who's going to win, and trump. >> i think yes people lie, but i think people have a healthy concern about our democratic

process being interfered with. we all know our democratic process has been compromised since before 2016. so when the polls in 2016 said this is clearly going to happen, like there was russian interference. >> to help obama win -- >> people have that concern and it's coming forward in this polling, and they're expressing that because they're like, okay, i know how i'm going to vote. >> i don't see how that concern manifests in those numbers. >> i don't see if i have a concern about russia interfering in my poll that's going to affect how and answer that question. you know, if who's going to win the election, trump or buttigieg, trump or biden. so i think -- i see what you're saying but i think that to chris' point in the broader question about how the voters are looking at this, i think the voters are -- yeah they're not unconcerned about what russia is saying -- it is a concern but i

think there's also a larger concern on the second point i was going to make those voters are still not being captured by pollsters. there are a lot of voters out there. trump tapped into those voters in a way no party, republican or democrat has been able to do. can they find that alternative, that other voter who has been sitting on the side line who now has a progressive awakening to come out and support whomever the democrats put out? >> i wonder your thoughts on this. could it be that democrats who do read the newspaper, know what's going on -- you know what i noticed last time at the very end trump came out of nowhere. he started hitting those places, pennsylvania, he knew where to go. he may be awful but he knew where to go and he picked up those three states. and also he has this habit of destroying his opponent. he made fun of them so that they

limped off the stage, like mark yo rubio, he looked like crazy. they're afraid democrats they may worry about the russians again but they also wonder trump's coming to thumb the candidate. >> i think that's the message we've heard from a lot of campaigns like elizabeth warren, senator harris have all been pointing out i can stand up to him, i'm going to hold him to task and i'm not going to back down. >> here's a democrat holding another democrat to task. in an interview with cnn buttigieg was asked if he thinks warren was being up front with how she would pay for her medicare for all proposal. >> senator warren is known for being straightforward and was extremely evasive when asked that question, and we've seen that repeatedly. i think if you are proud of your plan and it's the right plan, you should defend it in straightforward terms. and i think it's puzzling when everybody knows the answer to

that question whether her plan or senator sanders plan will raise middle class taxes, is yes. why wouldn't wouldn't you just say, though -- people are used to washington politicians not giving answers to simple questions but on a time like this that's exactly what we need. >> that's why i like pete. it's the way he delivered that punch to me -- i've known him a long time and watched him. it was so clean, so effective, so above where a trump would take that kind of an attack. and what it signals for this upcoming debate is that elizabeth warren better find the flack-jacket because now these numbers showing really there's a greater separation between where pete and others are positioned, they're now going to be shooting up at her. and so this is a warning. just as we've seen other warnings come against biden. >> and this the debate between

now and iowa? because he's gaining in iowa. he's come from nowhere. >> that's the field he needs to play, and if he's going to position himself to have nearly as much momentum like elizabeth warren has, she's got a bullet under her so him going after her this way seems like a natural progression for his campaign. >> i think in long-term i watch this back and forth, democrats win one election, the only way to finance a middle class benefit program like social security and medicare is in effect middle class pays for most. after a democrat wins and they flip it all back and you're stuck with a tax bill and the rich do not get stuck with it. the rich never get stuck with those tax bills. up next senator kamala harris is betting it all on iowa, and i think it's a smart bet. i love political calculation and i think she's got a smart move here. she's saying if i don't wip in iowa, i'm not going to win so i

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senator kamala harris has

decided to place all her marbles on iowa, doubling the size of her staff there. it's a smart bet. democrats who have won thoiowa caucuses have tended to win the nomination itself. this was true of jimmy carter in 1976 and in 1980 against challenger ted kennedy, gore in 2000, kerry in 2004, obama in 2008, hillary clinton in 2016. the only two democrats to win iowa and not the democratic nomination were dick gephardt from missouri. and all the other cases from the outset of the caucuses of 1976 to the most recent was the winner of iowa ended up winning the nomination. this is why kamala harris has decided to put it all on iowa. another reason is a new poll conducted by her pollster taken among those voters most likely

to attend the iowa caucuses on february 3rd. the poll shows biden with a narrowing lead. elizabeth warren rising from 16% to up 23% in that span of time, putting her 2 points from biden. another factor in that iowa race is mayor pete buttigieg who's risen from nowhere to 12%. harris poll shows her own support in iowa has been cut in half from 10% of likely caucus goers a year ago to 5% now. but the polls spotted something else. the utter volatility of iowa's democratic caucus goers. harris' number in the poll just two months ago right after that first democratic debate in which she tore into the former vice president was at the top of the field at 18 points, biden with 17. think about this. i can only assume what the california senator is up now. she's looking to do to biden in iowa what she did in miami in

that first debate, toppling him and taking over the lead in that fight for the democratic nomination. this is her fight, her bet and her plan and we heard this morning saying to a fellow democratic senator yesterday actually, i'm moving to iowa. and there she is moving after. this race is still wide open. watch iowa. it's only a few months away. and that's "hardball" for now. all in with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on a special edition of "all in." >> what you are telling me is that this is tough. >> yes. >> acknowledge that. >> 2020 candidates converge on the nation's capitol to take action on climate crisis. >> we need an intervention and we need it now. >> we should stop lying to the next generation. plus our report on how the fossil fuel industry knew what they were doing to the planet and spent decades misleading the world. >>