rises up to 3%. bernie sapders is goi bernie sanders is going to copy that idea but go even further. the reason it matters, you look at bernie sanders and you look at some of these plans, trillions of dollars on climate change, we're going to wipe out your debt, we're going to send your kids to school for free. that's a lot of stuff for free and at some point you have to detail how you're going to pay for it. this is his first effort to say how he might pay for it. >> good to see you in person. hopefully you'll be here tomorrow morning, you'll come back. >> i'm going to sleep here. >> always a pleasure. thank you very much. of course you can read axios right there, sign up at axios kox. it will be coming out in a little bit. >> that does it for this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. iran is a different place than when i took over. when i took over the united states, when i became president, iran was a real threat to the

entire middle east and maybe beyond. >> yes, president trump yesterday reflecting on when had he, quote, took over the united states. >> took over the united states. >> good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, it's only tuesday, september 24th along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc news correspondent carolee is with us, pulitzer prize winner and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. and u.s. national ed by thetor at the financial times, edward is with us. good to have you on this morning. >> hold on a second. willie, what was it -- i can ask willie a question? >> i guess. >> what was it like when you took over for nbc? >> i have zero power at nbc, i can't even joke about that. this -- i mean, this day -- put that to the side, this day could

be historic in some ways. it's an incredibly significant day with in getting pushed very hard by the democratic caucus on the question of impeachment, something she's wanted to stay away from for a long time. her hand may be forced. she's got a big meeting this afternoon that i know we're going to talk about. big day this morning. >> there are some things that we don't know yet. >> yeah. >> i think anybody that's saying let's wait and see what other information we have, especially as it pertains to the quid pro quo, what -- what was promised, was there anything promised? i mean, it seems that he wouldn't have promised anything with everybody listening in on the phone. >> right. >> but we have new information this morning that he was obviously withholding military aid. but what he's already admitted, what rudy giuliani's already admitted, what the "wall street journal" has reported is that he pressured a foreign leader eight times to interfere with american -- american politics by

basically conducting opposition research at the same time the white house was withholding. >> yes. >> at the same time the white house was withholding military support as they had to worry about vladimir putin who has invaded their country. so, again, it's a personal lawyer. he couldn't -- he couldn't even hide behind, let's say, an official action like talk to our secretary of state or talk to our secretary of defense. so the information is damning enough as it is. that said, i think actually -- >> wait. >> -- having an inquiry -- >> stay behind it. >> -- to see what is out there is important. >> i'm impressed with mick mulvaney. i didn't know the chief of staff had the power to hold funds from ukraine until the state department got in. new reporting overnight

concerning the president and ukraine. three senior administration officials tell "the washington post" that the president ordered his acting chief of staff mick mulvaney to hold back nearly $400 million in military aid to that country just days before the call in which trump reportedly pressured ukraine's president to investigate joe biden. that reporting has since been matched by the new york times and "the wall street journal." according to the post, administration officials were instructed to tell lawmakers that the delays were part of an interagency process but to give them no additional information. a pattern that continued for nearly two months until the white house released the funds on the night of september 11th. congress is now investigating if the president froze the military aid as a way to pressure ukraine to dig up dirt on a political rival. well, the president denies that direct connection, he did connect the funding to

corruption and then corruption to joe biden. >> did you tell the ukrainian leader that they would have the aid only if they investigated joe biden and his family? >> no, i didn't. no, i didn't. i did not ask for -- i did not make a statement that you have to do this or i'm not going to give you "a." i wouldn't do that. i wouldn't do that. we're supporting a country. we want to make sure that country is honest. it's very important to talk about corruption. if you don't talk about corruption, why would you give money to a country that you think is corrupt? there was no pressure put on them whatsoever. i put no pressure on them whatsoever. i could have. i think it probably, possibly would have been okay if i did. but i didn't put any pressure on them whatsoever. you know why? because they want to do the right thing and they know about kription and they probably know that joe biden and his son are corrupt. now when you see the car -- i hope you see it frankly. >> you will authorize the

release of the transcript, will you do that. >> i could do it easily but i'd rather not it from the standpoint of all the other conversations i have. i may do it because it was an innocent call. i hope you get to see it and i hope you get to see it soon. >> on the point of the whistleblower, you said you'll get the transcript released. >> i didn't say that at all. it may get released. i don't think it's a great precedence to be releasing calls with foreign countries, heads of foreign countries. >> willie, again, here you have the president of the united states doing what he does. you have rudy giuliani who's done the same thing, it's by now it's their m.o. where they go out and admit it. >> yeah. >> they just admit it in the light of day. this would be like somebody admitting, yes, i robbed the bank. of course i robbed the bank. but you really need to focus on the bank president, those interests rates were predatory. they were 3% above prime. i mean, look -- that's exactly what's happening here. the president has admitted, so

let's just full stop. >> yeah. >> the president of the united states has admitted that while military aid that was meant to protect that country against vladimir putin's further invasion, the president of the united states held up that money and at the same time eight times pressured the president of ukraine to dig up opposition research for his personal lawyer. work with my personal lawyer. again, there's no official capacity to this. this is his personal lawyer going to ukraine to try to dig up dirt on his political opponent, the united states. that, in and of itself, is extraordinary and would be viewed by any congress that had

oversight responsibilities over the previous 44 presidents, that would be viewed as impeachable, per se. just that fact pattern right now. but now you have the president, of course, debating whether he held up arm sales over it. said he didn't, but then of course he went on to say, i could have. >> yeah. >> i could have held it up for that if i wanted to. so here you have once again the bank robber admitting that he did exactly what the world now knows he did. >> and, again. >> against the law. >> as "the washington post" and "new york times" reported late last night, the administration held up $391 million of aid in the days before this call to ukraine. so if it wasn't for that kind of a quid pro quo, why did you suddenly decide, mr. president, the question might be asked today at the u.n. to hold up that aid in the couple of days before you made that call? carol, we heard the president yesterday going back and forth saying, quote, i hope you get to see it soon talking about the

transcript and then in the next breath saying it sets a bad precedent you can't see the transcript, going back and forth on that. also a little tlach herich that concerned about corruption. >> on the transcript question we've seen this from him before. we saw it with will you sit down with mueller? yes, no i won't. should mueller testify? yes, no, he shouldn't. there is real debate about whether to release the transcripts specifically because there are people in the administration who think you shouldn't set a precedent. if you release this transcript then when other things happen down the road will you be pressured to release other transcripts. that aside, that's not going to be enough for congress. they want the whistleblower report. and so even if he does release the transcript, it's not going to go away in the is something that's going to continue. and, you know, the president seems -- he's really digging in, you're absolutely right that he's got this, you know, once again we've seen -- we're seeing him saying, you know, if this -- i did nothing wrong but here's

what i did. and with this, we saw the earliest version of this in the administration was with michael flynn, if you remember, he said, you know, oh, even if he did talk sanctions with the russians there was nothing wrong with that. it's hiding everything in plain sight. so he's putting forward his very typical playbook and yet when you talk to people in congress and you see that what's coming out of the -- from the democrats, it just doesn't look like it's going to be enough this time. >> so, willie, to your point about the president changing his mind in realtime -- >> i mean -- >> -- take a look at this. >> this is a back flip. >> when would you have see the call, i hope you see it frankly, you will find out that i did not that at all. sniext tape rewinding ]. >> i'm a whistleblower do you want the transcript of the call released? >> i didn't say that at all. i didn't say that at all. it may get released. i didn't say that at all. [ tape rewinding ]. >> now whether you see the call from you see it, i hope you see

it frankly, you will find out that i did not do that at all. >> so, ed, there obviously say back and forth time again. same thing many times he said he hoped to release his tax returns, he never released his tax returns, of course. but getting to the bigger point about mick mulvaney following orders to hold up the arms transfer to -- that had already been appropriated by congress. mika and i were hearing, you may have been hearing some of of the same things from our sources that work in eastern europe that this money was being held up. the arms sales were being held up because donald trump wanted to dig up information on joe biden and was pressuring ukraine do that. that was back in august. the financial times and "washington post" also wrote about this possibility as well. how -- how serious are those

charges? should the democrats move forward? what's the next step? >> this is a -- i don't think there's any real precedent in american history for the president asking the leader -- try to extort the leader of a foreign power. a young, very pro western, very anticorruption -- who was elected on an anticorrupt ticket mind to dig up oppo research on his likely opponent, this just hasn't happened. we've had other sort of man factionmana factions. in has about 150 democratic lawmakers saying they would like to move ahead with impeachment. she will of course need at least 218 for there to be any mathematical sense in going forward. it seems like the tide, you know, is swelling in that

direction. but that's still another 60 or 70 votes that are lacking. clearly mathematically she cannot call for a vote that she doesn't know she's going win. and there are many, there are dozens of democratic freshmen who are in districts that trump won in 2016. and are obviously going to be provar indicatin provarindicating as to whether this would be an act of political suicide on their behalf. >> so, ed, can you help clear up one other thing for us. i think it bears repeating. we talked about it yesterday. t"the wall street journal" and final times reported it as well, but the trump administration is hoping that americans sore ignorant that they actually believe the investigator was fired by joe biden because he was looking into a company that biden's son was attached to. the reality, and if you can go into this a little bit, the

reality is that the imf and other western leaders wanted this investigator fired in part because, critical point here, critical point, everybody, wait for it trump fans, because there was a concern he was not investigating that company and others aggressively enough. >> yeah, that's absolutely right. the prosecutor in question, victor shokin, was notorious for doing investigations on all kinds of people around ukraine, then going to them and sailiyin look at this stuff i've got on you, what would you like me do about it and benefitting in kind when he didn't go ahead with prosecution. it wasn't just vice president bide enacting on obama's instructions asking for him to be removed as a precondition for further imf and international assistance to ukraine.

it was all the european leaders. it wassing an ga ga angela merk and theresa may. if there's a leaking bucket you want to mend that be bucket before you put more water into it and victor shokin was the leak. >> this is just want to point out one of the results of trump's war on the media calling it fake news and denigrating the value of the truth. you're going to have people who think the wall has been built and mexico's paying for it and are going to think there was something nefarious going who there wasn't. this attack on the media is serious and here's why. we're going to see it in realtime. he want to play for you the story with a fox news host.

>> he's been a straight shooter and he says it will hurt joe biden as well politically. he says to both. >> and then smith is following. take a look. >> there's no known evidence that biden did anything wrong. the whole thing involved corruption in ukraine. a corrupt prosecutor, who much of the world was pressuring ukraine to remove. earlier this year a ukrainian official said there was no evidence of any wrongdoing by joe biden or his son hunter. the real issue here is the phone call, the claim that the president pressured a foreign leader to investigate a political rival and the failure to pass the whistleblower complaint to congress. >> who's in more trouble here, the president who had this phone call with the ooukrainian leade or joe biden who had a quid pro quo with ukraine when he was vice president? >> that depends who you ask. >> i'm asking the judge. >> i think it's far more serious

for the president far more serious than bob mueller drug or dragged up against him. in if there was a quid pro quo, it does appear as though a quarter of a billion dollars in defensive weaponry was held back for a period of time while these eight conversations were going on between the president -- >> even though there was nothing said according to the wall street zwlaurnl wjournal that w a couple of sources that they have privy to this phone conversation, they said there was no specific quid pro quo. >> if you're the president of the united states and you're making a conversation that you know your intelligence community is listening to, of course you're not going to articulate a quid pro quo, you'll just make the quid pro quo happen. >> and by the way, that's that -- gene robinson, that's what everybody that's following this story is sailing. he would never say on the phone call there was a quid pro quo. but we have facts in front of us. we have congress passing

$391 million of support, military support for ukraine. after they have attacked and donald trump has attacked barack obama for years for not sending that sort of defense weaponry to ukraine. and then donald trump decides in the middle of july suddenly to tell mick mulvaney, hey, kill that, we're not going to send it over to them. if anybody asks just say it's interagency mumbo jumbo. >> uh-huh. >> then suddenly he talks eight times to the president of ukraine. eight times saying, you need to work with my personal lawyer. they have a good conversation, he apparently gets reassurances and then what happens, the $391 million is released. i can tell you not only in the court of law but i would suggest among american citizens, that's

pretty strong evidence. >> yeah, you would love this case if you were a prosecutor, wouldn't you? >> yes, i do. >> and the yes of belowhether ot there is an explicit proffer of a quid pro quo in the phone call is irrelevant. this is the kind of thing that prosecutors over here on wiretaps of organized crime figures all the time, you know. you've got a nice little eastern half of your country there, be a shame if anything happened to it and you didn't get your military aid and, by the way, you need to investigate my potential rival for the presidency. this is -- this is truly -- well, outrageous say word we'ise

used many times over the years. let's investigate more and find out more. but the facts we know already are just on their face impeachable. this is insane. this cannot -- >> this is really bad for our country. >> cannot happen in the united states of america. maybe in, you know, zimbabwe or someplace like that, but not in the united states of america. this is not the way our country does business. it's the way donald trump does business. >> and, by the way, willie, let's just look at, again, the fact pattern here. you're the president of ukraine, congress has approved $391 million, you are beginning to go into negotiations with vladimir putin who has invaded your country. you are desperate for that $391 million. you are zriet medesperate to me the president of the united states. he will not meet with you. you are desperate to get him to release the $391 million but he's frozen it because he's told

his chief of staff to freeza tnd not tell people why, to say it's interagency mumbo jumbo. >> and it's so important -- >> and then the president of the united states -- i'm sorry. i'm talking to my jury very slowly here. then the president -- then the president of the united states under that fact pattern, when he's waiting for almost $400 million in military aid to defend his country, what does the president of the united states talk about eight times? he talks about sending rudy giuliani, his personal lawyer, over and pressures the ukrainian president eight times to work with giuliani to dig up dirt on his opponent who is beating him by 14 points in a series of polls. that, it does not -- it does not take a lot of imagination to figure out what those phone calls were about.

>> and that's why it's critical to lay it out just like that. because of the smoke screen that the president and the administration, republicans on capitol hill are throwing up right now, just use common sense. does it seem logical to you? does it add up as you watch this morning that the president of the united states was sitting in his office watching cable news and suddenly thought to himself, boy, i am deeply concerned about corruption in ukraine? i'm so concerned about corruption in the ukrainian government i'm going to have my deputy chief of staff withhold almost $400 million until we can sort out corruption in ukraine? does that add up to now. >> do you think donald trump is so deeply concerned about that issue, he thought it through that carefully? by the way, to your point, he said he talked about joe biden on the phone so we already know that. put all those pieces together and you have what nancy pelosi has in front of her this morning. >> and he wasn't worried about corruption because he had already gotten a report card from everybody. and as ed said, this wasn't just

joe biden, he was acting on what angela merkel, the imf and everybody else said about this previous investigator who was not investigating biden's company again hard enough. are these other companies, a lot of people believed he was on the take. so, again, the president, if the president was concerned about corruption, he could have picked up the phone and he could call any world leader and they would have said, yes, this actually ukraine is in better shape now because they fired the investigator. still ahead on "morning joe," seven freshmen democrats back impeachment in what could be an influential move. we'll talk to two of them when congresswomanee lisa slotkin and abigail spanberger are learning about the trade war in realtime in public with the cameras rolling. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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go beyond the expected, to do the extraordinary. take your business beyond. welcome back to "morning joe." breaking news out of britain. let's bring in ed. ed, boris johnson's losing streak, it's remarkable. he loses yet another one. this, a supreme court decision

that i am shocked by because it had to do with johnson deciding to suspend parliament. i was sure that they were going hide behind the fact it was a political decision. but the court has decided something completely different at a stunning decision. tell us about it. >> so 11 judges unanimously ruled that boris's advice to the queen to pro rogue, to suspend parliament for five weeks was based on bad advice. essentially in plain english that he lied to the queen and that therefore the current suspension of parliament, which most people think was designed by boris to prevent any debate on brexit and britain's hasty exit from europe, that that is illegal, fully illegal, no nuance about this. this was as plain as english as you get. parliament therefore has to reconvene. the speaker has said it will

reconvene and it has to start doing its work again. so it's a deep humiliation or boris. johnson who is in new york at the moment, who is in fact about to give a big speech later today to the u.n. general assembly may well have to return to britain. calls for his resignation i very much doubt he can be shamed in resigning, but parliament will have to be recon veend. so reconvened. it's another defeat in a long line of defeats since he became prime minister two months zblag and what a devastating defeat. and a court in effect, as you said, saying that boris johnson lied to the queen, you're colleague in the financial times philip stevens wrote on the 20th of september that it strips democracy of trust, self-restraint, and truths. and what remains is

majoritarianism of the mob. i wonder, how -- how impactful will a ruling be that determines the prime minister of great britain lied to the queen? >> it depend on how easily he can be shamed. and i'm afraid to say on current evidence that he's sort of making a bid for shamelessness. the people around him most importantly dominic cummings, rasputon adviser believe that he should ignore rulings and plow ahead to the no deal brexit. at some point in the coming weeks there will have to be a general election whether he resigns or not from the prime ministership in which he and know theally men of the people are going to run as the people versus parliament.

odd as that might sound to american ears, today's supreme court ruling might even reinforce that electoral -- that campaign line because they can portray these 11 judges and the queen, whoever else they like as part of the deep state. there's a very trumpian logic to this. very similar to when we talk about impeachment, the big question is, well, we might think this. we might be outraged by that, but what are the people out there thinking? are they paying much attention? do they care about the supreme court? do they care about 11 judges? and unfortunately i don't know the answer to that anymore than i would know the answer to whether the american electorate care about the differences between what joe biden is alleged to have done by president trump and what president trump has actually done. >> let's bring in former treasury official "morning joe" economic analysts steve rattner.

steve, you covered british politics and government "the new york times." what's your reaction to the ruling and how much further does this get boris johnson away from his ultimate goal of getting his country to move forward on brexit? >> well, as ed said, and he certainly knows more, this is unprecedented, in my experience of having covered the uk a good while ago and having watched it fairly closely ever since. unexpected as well. and if you want to judge by how the financial markets are reacting, the pound is rallying suggesting there's some chance this will do real, boris johnson's most extreme and outlandish ideas for how to get britain out of the eu. and i think there's also a parallel here because we're going to ultimately perhaps be relying on the courts. and what you saw in the uk were the courts standing up for the

right thing in an almost unprecedented way, notwithstanding the force of a prime minister. and we will see here whether our courts are also going to act in a responsible way when the time comes, which i think it will. >> all right. we'll be right back with the atlantic's jeffrey goldberg and keep talking about the momentous day ahead where nancy pelosi is going to be getting an earful from fellow democrats about pushing towards an impeachment inquiry. that and more when "morning joe" returns. that and more when "morning joe" returns.

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joe biden and his son are corrupt. all right. but the fake news doesn't want to report it because they're democrats. if that ever happened, if a republican ever did what joe biden did, if a republican ever said what joe biden said, they'd be getting the electric chair by right now. >> yeah, of course he's of course completely -- it's getting worse for him. it really is. >> since he took over. >> since he took over america, as he said. but you have to really feel sorry for the guy that he really is -- he's either that disconnectsed frdi

disconnected from reality or -- >> i feel sorry for our country right now. this is a bad time. >> he can't tell the truth. he knows he's in trouble. he understands that he's been caught. "wall street journal," rupert murdoch's wall street journal said that eight times he pressured the president of ukraine to work with rudy giuliani to dig up dirt for our democratic elections in 2020. and while he was doing that, we found out last night reporting for the "washington post" followed up by "the wall street journal" and "new york times," he had told mick mull vein no, i hold mulvaney to hold up $391 million that congress had approved and send over to ukraine. >> there's a word for all of this. let's bring in cofounder and ceo of axios jim and have high and the editor and chief.

the atlantic festival kicks off today in washington, d.c. and jeffrey will be a guest in residence with us for the duration of the festival the next three days highlighting all the incredible conversations that are going to happen there. and todayed, wo, wow, you have pelosi today. >> indeed, i just have to think some of questions for her. i wish there were something in the news to prompt this. >> what could you ask? >> absolutely nothing. absolutely nothing. the aspen -- this atlantic event is already being call youed, ed woodstock for really smart people. >> is that what they're calling it? >> kids on the street are calling that, jeffrey. you need to have your ear closer to the ground. >> from now on they're calling it that, that's great. >> so let's talk about actually nancy pelosi's in the center of news today. >> really. >> some sources close to her

telling us that it is likely that she is going to begin moving forward on the impeachment inquiry. what can you tell us, first of all, about anything you've heard on that front? what are you going to be asking her today? and what's your take on where we find ourselves as a country this morning? >> let me do that in reverse order. where we find ourselves in the country, you know, these clichés become so tiresome, uncharted territory and you charted waters without precedent. but this is astonnishing. i was think of this of watergate it's as if nixon came out and said yeah, i ordered the burglary of watergate because i needed to get to the dnc secrets. i have a hard time thinking of a scandal in american political history in which the president

has said, yeah, basically he has said to the country, yeah, i brought up joe biden with the president -- with the leaders of ukraine because i needed an investigation of him. it's really astonishing. and i think this is a stress test on american democracy, just as the boris johnson story is a stress test on british democracy. although in this case we don't believe that donald trump lied to the queen, so he has that going for him at least. but, we are really in a moment now. it's such a moment that most democrats, it seems, are throwing away the political calculation which is to say that their worries about the reverbration or the rebound effect of impeachment on 2020 is now taking a backseat to their analysis that the country's in actual real trouble, that you have a president who is inviting foreign interference in another election. that's where we are. in terms of the speaker, i think

i will ask her the usual questions one would ask in this moment. i'm happy for suggestions, of course, but i'm fascinated by her and the things that i'm picking up, the same things that you're picking up, is that she is a counter, you know. she -- she is a very, very good at managing her caucus. she's very good at math. and if she feels that the weight has tipped in this direction, even though she might think it's politically imprudent to go forward with this effort, i think she -- she can figure out that most of her members are nowa nowardentnow wanting to move in this direction and that's what i'm hearing. >> this is a day she's been putting off for a long time. but she'll meet with the committee chairs and then the full democratic caucus and she's going to hear about it and she's going to hear if russia wasn't enough for you, look at the facts from ukraine. we don't need a two-year

investigation. we need to get the whistleblower complaint number one, we need the transcript of the call number two and then we can decide to go forward. how much pressure will there be on nancy pelosi at 4:00 this afternoon. >> i think potentially too much pressure to even really resist at this point. again, you're looking at three quarters of the caucus now that's strongly for impeachment. they're going to gather as a group after her friend rosa delauro comes out yesterday and says, listen, the tide has turned. when you have swing state democrats saying now you take ukraine, with what happened with russia that we are to begin impeachment proceedings. she'll still do it somewhat reluctantly because i think she knows if you look at what's happened in the last 24 hours, virtually certain to get all most no republican support for this even with all the latest reporting around what happened with the ukraine. so she knows that they'll impeach in the house, that this will take months, potentially drag right up to the election in the senate, which would have to ultimately say, listen, we have

two-thirds vote to remove you from office, that probably won't happen. i think it's interesting and telling to look at ha happened when mitt romney said we should see what happened, let's see the transcript, this is a serious matter, basically the only republican left in office to stay and he gets torched on twitter by donald trump. so, again, that's a weapon that scares the hell out of a lot of republicans. that's why almost no republican, unless you're facing retirement, if you said i'm leaving, all most no one speaks out against him. i think that will be the test. but think it's gone beyond that for democrats. they don't care about the politics. think she at some point is going to say i don't care about the politics and we just have to do this. >> i agree with that, jeffrey, although i think she does still care a bit about the politics and i think she's going to be judicious as to -- i'm sorry. >> i forgive you forever. >> one of those days. jeffrey, i do think she cares about the politics and i think she -- and that's part of why think shaes she's been resisting so far in what she's been doing.

she has 40 new members that many of which are in trump districts that are going to have to face re-election. and so i think most -- think you will see her move, whether she moves all the way to impeachment or simply to an impeachment inquire troy get to the next step. i think one of the things she said repeatedly is that public opinion is an important part of this process and to move against public opinion is a dangerous thing. i wonder what you think about all of that. >> yeah, well, i mean rewell, you awe alled, in a de facto committee. they have been doing their investigations in various aspects of the trump presidency. think you're right. i think nancy pelosi has a long memory. she remembers how bill clinton came out of impeachment more popular than he went into impeachment. but i think that's not the whole -- i mean, this is something i would like to talk to her about. it's not the whole story because, of course, the clinton impeachment was surrounding

certain private behaviors of a president. this is rather more aus sten tashs a charge that the president is inviting foreign interference or trying to use american tide extort the manufacturing of dirt about a political rival. i mean that's what i mean when i say this is so outlandish. and i am absolutely sure she has serious questions about donald trump's capacity to lead, moral capacity and all the rest, but i think she is keenly aware of the dangers and some of these swing districts. on the other hand, you know, we have to hold out the possibility here that enough evidence surfaces in the coming months about donald trump's behavior not only in this issue, but other issues, that maybe some people change their minds in the republican caucus among trump

voters. i mean, it doesn't seem likely at the moment, but you don't know. >> well, there are a small number of persuadables that will determine, gene robinson, whether donald trump is re-elected or not. i must say, there has been this urban legend that has grown up around the impeachment of bill clinton and i have -- i have bought into it. i have bought into it because i was there and i voted to empeimh him twice and i saw his approval ratings go over 60%. and we republicans all looked at each other and said, oh my gosh, it's the obi one kenobi thing. you strike him down and he only gets more powerful. but that said, republicans did win the white house the next year. >> they did. >> and republicans did control both ends of pennsylvania avenue for the most part for the next six years. so this whole idea that

impeachment will hurt the democrats does not hold water if you look at what happened to republicans in 1999. >> the urban legend is at the very least an overstatement. bill clinton did get more popular. but, as you say, republicans won the next election so it's not like the republican party was decimated by having done an impeachment that -- that was very different from the impeachment we ought to have now. i mean, this -- you know, we have the facts here now. we just had a two-year special counsel investigation seeking to determine whether donald trump had actively sought russian interference in the 2016 election or merely benefitted from it. and because that was so important to the foundational principles of our democracy that we needed to find that out. now we see it happening in

realtime. he has admitted it. he's doing it with ukraine as we speak. and we already know that. he has -- he has -- he has acknowledged doing what we spent two years trying to figure out whether he did. so i just don't see whether there's a choice at this point but to move forward on impeachment. and, by the way, we ought to be talking about what congress does. what the house of representatives does. it's, you know, we are talking in practical terms about the democratic caucus because we are facing political reality. but this is really a responsibility that falls to every member of the house of representatives, including republicans. >> exactly. exact. >> i who have sworn an oath to defend the constitution and they're watching it trampled by president trump. so let's not let them off the hook. >> they've been utterly silent.

a lot of them dodging reporters in the hallways saying you'll have to talk to my press secretary instead of giving the answer to what they think about the whistleblower allegation. >> yeah. >> you know, willie, the thing is there are a couple who you look at what mitt romney said, you look at what marco rubio said. both said this is very troubling. president shouldn't have done that. let's get more information. >> that's where we are. >> that seems very responsible. >> that's fair. >> it is a very responsible position to take and democrats, i think, need to be very careful not to allege things that aren't yet into the record but, boy, willie, the president went around for two years saying no collusion, no collusion, no collusion. anybody that actually read the mueller report may actually question that conclusion about no collusion. but here, as gene said, it's right in front of us. the president is like hell yeah, i colluded. "wall street journal" says eight times he colluded. eight times he told the ukraine

ya ians to talk to rudy giuliani, not anybody from his government, not anybody from the state department, not anybody from the dod, not anybody even frpt white house, but to talk to his personal lawyer who was digging up dirt on a domestic political opponent. he's admitted collusion already, the facts are on the table. i don't know how, willie, an inquiry doesn't begin. >> yeah. and the romney position's not a difficult one for a republican to take, which is it's troubling if true, let's follow the facts here. but donald trump has cast such a spell over republicans on capitol hill and across the country that they won't say a word about whim they're chased aid round capitol hill. let me ask you, carol lee about the speech assembly. he'll be speaking this morning for the third time as president of the united states. you remember last year the world literally laughed with him when he said he's accomplished more than any administration in the history of the country. what do you expect to hear from him today while thaul all this

on in the background? >> i think the big thing is what he says on iran. the administration officials have said he'll talk about sort of what traditional stuff about what america first means on a world stage. he'll talk about american sovereignty. somewhat ironically they've been all over the ukraine news. he's going to talk about how america is the answer to authoritarianism. but iran, we're tall talking about ukraine and it's an important story, there's this intense standoff between the administration and iran. they're trying to figure out how they'll respond. what he says there will be the main event. but usually in these speeches and his aide said he was still work tong la working on it last night. after that he meets with boris johnson and the president of iraq and so he has a series of other meetings that will largely focus on the middle east. >> so, jeffrey, before we wrap this segment up let's talk about

the atlantic festival. >> big day starting off. >> other than the hologram of richie haven singing freedom and country joe on the fish, what else are you having at this blockbuster festival? >> hendrix, hendrix is coming back. it's a big coup for us. >> it is huge. >> huge. a big discussion there is sort of apropos. we're having a big discussion jointly with the national constitution center about the ongoing constitutional crisis, if you will. many members of congress, including adam schiff are coming for that. we have yo-yo ma of course going to discuss impeachment. accompanying himself in that. >> yes. >> governor schwarzenegger is coming to talk about climate change and impeachment. basically we're going it try to get -- we are a ton of top tier guests and interview subjects and we'll try to get at least one question in on impeachment to everyone, no matter how inappropriate the person is for

the conversation. >> that's great. >> all right. >> the range is pretty incredible from ami to -- >> i'm kind of impressed with nancy pelosi starting off the festival. >> yeah. to secretary mattis, bob iger, it's going to be incredible. >> yeah. probably won't ask him about impeachment, ask him about his own presidential hopes dashed currently but maybe they're coming again, who knows. >> there you go. >> we'll have you every day so we can hear what happened. jeffrey, stay with us. carol lee, thank you so much for your reporting this morning. jim will be reading axios am. and eugene robinson we'll be reading your new column entitled trump is practically begging for impeachment. give it to him already. i don't disagree. >> ed, thank you so much for being with us. we hope to see you very soon. and, still ahead on "morning joe." >> where i could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any

voters, okay. >> in writing about the president -- >> now he said that before he took over the united states -- >> well, i know. thank god he took over. >> is that what he said? >> someone -- >> hey, alex -- what was the language again? >> you're not a dictator. >> what was the lang waeth again, alex -- >> i know you want to be. >> before i took over the united states of america, something like that. >> when i took over the united states, when i became president. >> i took over the united states. >> somebody should tell him maybe we just did, pretty sure we did. in writing about the president's actions regarding ukraine, the "new york times" peter baker says the president is now testing whether he can do the political equivalent of that fifth avenue scenario. remember that one? "the washington post" robert costa is also reporting about a president, quote, convinced of his own invinceability. bob and former senator claire mccaskill join the conversation next on "morning joe." mccaskill join the conversation next on "morning joe." i didn't have to shout out for help.

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vaughan iran is a different place than when i took over. when i took over as president iran was a real threat to the entire middle east and maybe beyond. >> oh my lord. >> article one, my man, article one, article 3. you're two. you went there. you didn't take over. when -- willie, it's really -- is it is, seriously, i mean, you got critics that are talking about how you're an autocrat in waiting and you have ordered all companies out of china. you canceled a meeting with a nato ally because they would not be brutalized in seating greenland over to you. not a good look to talk about at the united nations the general assembly week when i took over

the united states. >> it's certainly a window once again into the way the president views his administration and his position of leadership. i do -- every time you say that i have to, like, the thing about greenland, it's this parallel universe moment. think about saying five years ago the president canceled a meeting with nato ally because he wouldn't let us buy greenland. it sounds like an onion item but it happened. >> yeah. our humiliation on the world stage continues thanks to president trump. welcome back to "morning joe." it's tuesday, september 24th with joe, willie and me. we have former treasury official steve rattner. editor and chief of the atlantic magazine, jeffrey goldberg. the atlantic festival starts today. msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us. and former u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analysts claire mccaskill is here. nbc news correspondent hidedry and political reporter for "the washington post" and name

political analyst robert costa. moderator of washington week on pb pbs. three senior administration officials tell "the washington post" that the president ordered his acting chief of staff mick mulvaney to hold back nearly 4-milli4 $400 million from the country just days before the call in which trump pressured ukraine's president to investigate joe biden. that reporting has since been matched by "the new york times" and "the wall street journal." according to the post, administration officials were instructed to tell lawmakers that the delays were part of an interagency process but to give them no additional information. a pattern that continued for nearly two months until the white house released the funds on the night of september 11th. congress is now investigating if the president froze the military aid as a way to pressure ukraine

to dig up dirt on a political rival. while the president denies that direct connection, he did connect the funding to corruption and then corruption to joe biden. >> did you tell the ukrainian leader that they would have the aid only if they investigated joe biden and his family? >> no, i didn't. no, i didn't. i did not ask for -- i did not make a statement that you have to do this or i'm not going to give you aid. i wouldn't do that. i wouldn't do that. >> we're supporting a country. we want to make sure that country is honest. it's very important to talk about corruption. if you don't talk about corruption, why would you give money to a country that you think is corrupt? there was no pressure put on them whatsoever. i put no pressure on them whatsoever. i could have. i think it would probably possibly have been okay if i did. but i didn't. i didn't put any pressure on them whatsoever. you know why? because they want to do the right thing and they know about corruption and they probably

know that joe biden and his son are corrupt. now whether you see the call, if you see it it -- i hope you see it frankly. >> you can authorize the release of the transcript approximately will you do that? >> i can do it very easily but i'd rather not do it from the standpoint of all of the other conversations i had. i may do it because it was a very innocent call. i hope you get to see it and i hope you get to see it soon. >> you say you want the transcript of the call released. >> i didn't say that at all. i didn't say that at all. it may get released. i didn't say that at all. i don't think it's a great precedent to be releasing calls with foreign countries, heads of foreign countries. >> wow. >> the guy changes his mind so many times. he ordered a freeze on military aid to ukraine, a country that was, of course, invaded by vladimir putin at a critical time he ordered the money to be frozen there. and then yesterday the president, again, it's not collusion in plain sight, he's admitted to the collusion, he's admitted to talking to the

ukrainian president eight times and yesterday he admitted that it was about joe biden. he said -- he said corruption's important to us and joe biden's corrupt so, yes, he's connected all the dots already. so collusion, yes. he admitted it yesterday. >> yeah. and we can't take these moments in a vacuum. remember last week rudy giuliani, his personal attorney, said to chris cuomo in that remarkable interview on cnn, yes, of course i did. of course i talked to ukraine about joe biden, about corruption and joe biden and joe biden's son hunter a minute after he said he hadn't talked to him of course. claire mccaskill, want to ask you if the facts we've learned in the last 12 hours, this reporting from the "new york times" and "the washington post" have changed your mind at all. you've been careful to say let's follow the facts before we start talking about impeachment. where are you this morning? >> i think i've changed my mind. i think that it is time for the speaker of the house to appoint a special select committee on impeachment for two reasons.

one, it's going to make -- this is now a court battle. it is all about what the courts are going to do as it relates to documents that are being withheld, this transcript, the whistleblower complaint. this is all going to play out in the courts. and you have a much stronger hand going into the courts if you are -- have a formal impeachment process in place. i think a special select committee elevates it. the second reason i think is if we don't do something at this moment different than what we've been doing, it doesn't elevate this incident appropriately. this incident needs to be elevated. this is different while it's of the same family of a lot of his nonsense, this is different. this is him making a call to the head of a foreign government threatening to withhold congressionally approved military aid all to try to further his political agenda. that is not what america is. and if we don't elevate it, for

most people through the in the country, they're not going to see this as any different than him trying to buy greenland or any of the other outrageous stuff he's done. >> you think nancy pelosi in her meeting with the membership today hears that from almost all of the members and shell change her position which has been hold on, guys, pump the brakes on impeachment? >> think she'll hear it from the majority of them. you know, she's going to count votes, she's a great vote counter, 218. and then it would come over to mitch -- moscow mitch and he will, of course, try to protect the president. but it could put the senators in a more difficult position if it is in the senate and they're going to be forced to comment on whether or not the president of the united states should withhold congressionally approved military aid in order to ginn up some kind of phony accusation and smear against his major political opponent. >> here is the reporting and analysis on this story by fox

news senior judicial analysts andrew and she smith. first she. >> there is no known evidence that biden did anything wrong. the whole thing involved corruption in ukraine, a corrupt prosecutor who much of the world was pressuring ukraine to remove. earlier this year ukrainians said there was no evidence of any wrongdoing by joe biden or his son hunter. the real issue is the phone call that the president pressured a foreign president on a political rival. >> who's in more trouble here, the president who had this phone call with the ukrainian leader or joe biden who actually did have a quid pro quo with regard to ukraine when he was vice president? >> wrell, that depends who you ask. >> well i'm asking the judge. >> i think it's a more serious charge against the president, far more serious than what bob mueller drug or dragged up

against him. if there was a quid pro quo. it does appear as though a quarter of a billion dollars in defensive weaponry was held back for a period of time while these eight conversations were going on between the president and -- >> even though there was nothing said according to the "wall street journal," they was quoting a couple of sources they have that were apparently privy do this phone conversation, they said there was no specific quid pro quo. >> so if you are the president of the united states and you are making a conversation that you know your intelligence community is listening to, you of course you're not going to articulate a quid pro quo, you'll just make the quid pro quo happen. >> quid pro quo happen, you can look at the facts, i think most juries would determine that that happened. but as the judge said, if you're the prs of the united states and everybody's listening in, you're not going to admit that. the president himself has said i don't talk that way. he said that in a clip earlier.

which is, of course, what michael cohen said that -- remember that clip where cohen said the president doesn't talk that way. it's more veiled. so, but, you look at the facts that are all lined up. this is a president who wouldn't want to take this case into any courtroom in front of any jury. so, we discussed this yesterday, but there's some facts that bear repeating in light of the story that's being spun out of the white house. in 2014, soon after russia invaded ukraine and annexed crimea, joe biden took a lead role in the u.s. effort to support that fragile government in kiev. around the same time, biden's son hunter took a board pootion position with a ukrainian natural gas extraction company. the white house said at the time there was nothing wrong with hunter's work and that it did not create a conflict of interest, they said it in

realtime. president trump and his lawyer read giuliani have suggested that biden pushed for the firing of ukraine's general prosecutor victor shokin to halt an investigation into the burma incident. this is not true. stay with us. according to the "wall street journal," the prosecutor, quote, had dragged his feet on those investigations, western diplomats said. and effectively swaushd oquashe lond did i by failing to can he operate with uk authorities. the uk was investigating the company for money launding even before hunter bide enjoined his board. furthermore, bloomberg is reporting that under spohokin t investigation had gone dore manlt. stay with me. stay with me. the investigation had basically stopped by the time joe biden got involved that. was one of the complaints.

this investigator was not doing his job. many believe he was on the take. so "the new york times" reported that shokin had repeatedly been accused of turning a blind eye to corruption in his office and among the ukrainian political elite and was criticized for failing to bring corruption cases. all right. so are you staying with me? joe biden actually went over there and said that this investigator wasn't being tough enough on the companies. in addition, the journal reports, quote, ukraine's government was slow to fire the prosecutor despite warnings from the international monetary fund and others that western aid to the country would be cut off if it didn't act. so everything, mika, that the president is saying, everything that rudy giuliani is saying, everything that desperate republicans are saying, they're

just lies. you actually have all of this reporting from the "wall street journal" and others. >> right. >> all of this reporting that actually the u.s., angela merkel, the imf wanted this investigator fired not because he was investigating a company that hunter biden was connected to. >> yeah. >> but because he wasn't. because those investigations had gone dormant and he himself was corrupt. >> and the lies stay with trump and giuliani and the others who might be involved with this, the lies get disseminated. the facts that are untrue get disseminated into the media. you saw the person, the host, who was interviewing the judge who had it all wrong. had it all wrong. and doesn't care because they just keep pushing the ideas that are put out there out of president trump's mouth. robert costa, how are democrats perhaps going to respond differently to this? >> talking to house democratic aides last night, they say that had a different moment because it's about abuse of power in

their eyes. and when you have a group of house freshmen and women coming out in the "washington post" with national security credentials and talking about this in plain terms, they believe a corner has been turned. speaker pelosi is at her core a political leader and she's listening to her members and she knows that this may be something she has to start a special committee for and at least has to give some kind of new jurisdiction to convictions. >> you've been looking at your day ahead. we have a couple of congresswomen come thong show. they're the freshmen democrats of a "washington post" op-ed saying they're ready if these allegations true to move toward impeachment. there are people with national security experience, military veterans. what is nancy pelosi up against at 4:00 this afternoon in that members only meeting? >> willie, based on my reporting the speaker very much knew about this effort. it's been under way for months.

this small group has been talking amongst themselves about what is the red line? what is the breaking point? and it really was when rudy giuliani went on national television with chris cuomo and basically admitted to all of it. admitted to pressuring the ukrainians. and based on my reporting, there will be even more members who are expected to come out today in support for starting some kind of an official impeachment probe. but what's important to understand here is that what we've all been looking at here in terms of the benchmark for nancy pelosi might be a little bit off in terms of just counting the sheer number of democrats. what we're looking at here is the profile of the democrats. these are democrats who come from some of the most difficult districts in the country. and the fact that they are now coming forward means that there is also a whole separate group of democrats who are in very difficult districts who may not be coming forward publicly but who if it came to it and all of the facts came out and it looks as bad as it looks, would be

willing to fall on their swords and cast that vote on the floor. that is what i've been told talking to democratic aides last night as this was all breaking. >> jeffrey goldberg, steve rattner and i last night were at an event where nancy pelosi spoke. and prior to her appearance, her speaking appearance, i was speaking with the speaker listening to her. and her position on this as of last evening is very close to the position that claire mccaskill outlined. she realizes the importance, "a," of just the phone call that the president made and the critical importance of the refusal of the inspector general to forward the intelligence report to the house and senate intelligence committees. so my question to you is given the nature of where speaker pelosi stand now, which is quite different than it was a few days ago, the level of danger and

whatever adjective you want to use about the president's behavior here, do you think the larger body in the house of representatives and in the united states senate realize how unusually dangerous this behavior is? >> you know, i think if you read the presidential oath of office, presidents swear on inauguration day, the theme is that you, the president, ever going to subsume your personal interests to the national interests. you're going to disaggregate that and do only what's in the nation's interests and not look out for yourself. that's the fundamental principle and fundamental bargain we make with a priesident. nancy pelosi knows this very well. the truth is most republicans know this as well they just are frightened of the situation in their home districts and their

states. i -- i have to imagine that people understand this differently than -- we're talking about greenland. let's use greenland as an example. that's a tragic comment little side show. and there have been a lot of those weird, tragic side shows in the last couple of years. this is fundamentally different. this is the president and his lawyer essentially admitting that they are trying -- they are reshaping foreign policy in order to serve their immediate re-election needs. it's very, very hard to imagine a public servant not understanding the consequences of that kind of behavior. >> so, bob costa, give us a read on rank and file republicans. we've heard mitt romney, marco rubio, a few others saying the behavior's troubling but let's

wait and see what comes out. what about the rank and file republicans? is there a growing exhaustion toward donald trump behind the scenes or is it just more of the same? >> this one's tough to spin. >> this one is tougher to spin. but what are you hearing from rank and file republican and aides? >> suburban republicans in the house are certainly uneasy about this situation. but when you talk to most republicans privately, they say they are looking for someone else to stand up and be a leader. someone like a mitt romney in the senate, someone who has political stature. because so many of these republicans in the age of president trump feel like they don't really have a national presence, they're not presidential-type candidates. even some senators have said that to me. and so they're looking to see who could actually counter president trump in the republican party. because that's their challenge. they look at the primary field and with respect to governor weld and sanford and others, they think they're taking a

valiant stand against the president. if they're a critic of president trump. back up they're not sure they really have any kind of traction. who can get traction, they wonder, because that's what it's going to take if they're really going to have a gold water type moment from 1974 where they go to the president and say enough is enough. >> all right. well, things are changing as we speak. you can now add freshman congresswoman haley stevens so the list. michigan dralt democrat says this morning that she had been, quote, deeply alarmed by reports of a serious abuse of power by president trump. and now, she backs an impeachment inquiry. so those numbers are going up, heidi. >> and, heidi, what's so fascinating is, again, that many of these congresswomen, congressmen that are coming out are actually from swing districts that donald trump won in california, in michigan, in virginia that certainly has to give nancy pelosi a bit more latitude, as you said, because

these are swing districts that she's been trying to protect all along. now it seems many of these members of coming out saying, i support an impeachment inquiry. >> these are her most vulnerable members, to be honest, joe. and i remember going out and speaking with abigail spanberger in virginia and elisa slotkin and many of them doubted they could pull off a feat like that. it speaks to the gravity of the moment. but in speaking with unthese members confidentially last night. they said we can't take it anymore. this is the president violating the constitution, violating his oath of office, and actually taking money that is appropriated by the united states congress to fight corruption in order to help himself, in order to benefit himself politically. so it did feel like there was this momentum building, if you kind of looked, you can read

some of the tea leaves with adam schiff, a close ally of the speaker coming out and saying we passed the rubicon. but i will say there's another dimension to this as well underneath it all. there's been some frustration with the judiciary committee and the way in which many witnesses and the white house has just thumbed their nose at the committee, refused to produce witnesses, refused to produce documents. and if we don't d go into this direction, that's going to empower other committee members like adam schiff and the intelligence committee to play a greater role. and that is also part of this calculus. >> claire, somebody with a little experience of running in a swing state and serving in a swing state and you can't be harshly partisan all the time as some senators have the benefit of doing, what would you say to congressmen, women, or senators right now who are looking at the evidence in front of them and maybe have had those political calculations in mind by staying away from this subject talking

about democrats, but also moderate republicans, susan collins in maine, for example, what would you say to them this morning? >> i would say that there are voters out there that have gotten to the point of exhaustion over what this president has done and the way he's done it. they're not sure, they voted for barack obama in my state and then they swung hard for donald trump. many of them. and those voters are the voters you should be thinking about. and if you want to lead at this moment and put a stake in the ground that if the president of the united states withholds military aid in order to accomplish a political goal for himself, deeply personal, not for the country, then this is a moment you've got to lead. and those voters will follow you, i believe that. i believe they will. i think really what we've got to do is pivot this thing and look at suburban congressmen and women. we've got one in my state that's

going to be under a lot of pressure. look at people like cory gardner in a blue state running for the senate. look at people like susan collins and joni ernst where trump is upside down. if they don't speak out now, it gives a tremendous advantage, i think, to their opponents because this should be, and to channel john mccain, this should be country first. and i am -- i am so hopeful that the dam will break and one of my farmer republican colleagues will find this to be the moment to say at a minimum, we need to begin a formal impeachment inquiry so we can see all the documents. >> if you reshape foreign policy for his re-election campaign, this is not a difficult question. this has to be looked into. >> heidi and robert, thank you both for your reporting this morning. jeffrey goldberg, we'll see you tomorrow for more on the atlantic festival. it begins today in washington,

d.c. and you can get your tickets at the atlantic festival.com today starting off with nancy pelosi this afternoon on stage. congratulations, jeffrey, and we can't wait to hear everything when you come back tomorrow. and coming up, we'll talk to two freshman democrats who say if the allegations about ukraine are true, it would be an impeachable offense for president trump. congresswoman elissa slotkin and abigail spanberger will be our guests next on "morning joe." l r guests next on "morning joe. standard of care. it's how we bring real hope to our cancer patients- like viola. when she was diagnosed with breast cancer, her team at ctca created a personalized care plan that treated her cancer and strengthened her spirit. so viola could focus on her future. their future. this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal.

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take your business beyond. welcome back to "morning joe." as we've mentioned this morning, there is a new op-ed in the "washington post" authored by seven freshmen democrats all with national security credentials who say if the allegations about president trump and ukraine are true, it

is an impeachable offense. joining us now, two of those seven house democrats, congresswomen abigail spanberger of virginia and congresswoman elissa slotkin of michigan. >> we thank both of you for being with us. i want to seize on those words, if the allegations are true. let's talk about we already know to be true. donald trump froze -- had his chief of staff freeze almost 4-million dolla$400 million to ukraine. froze despite the fact that it came over from congress, gave no excuses for freezing that money. and while ukraine desperately pleaded to meet with the president, he refused to meet with them or to talk to the president, when he finally talked to them, eight times he told the president of ukraine while this money was frozen that

he had to work with his personal attorney to do opposition research against joe biden. is that not in and of itself worthy of an impeachment inquiry? >> congresswoman spanberger, you go first. >> okay. so these the allegations that we, as a collective group, found to be absolutely a threat to our democracy, absolutely just chilling in the depth and breath of these allegations. and in our op-ed what we stated is every tool that the u.s. congress has, every tool that we as members of congress have should be employed at this point in time to ensure that we know the facts and that we can either completely prove or disprove these stunning allegations against the president. >> absolutely stunning. ee lisa slotkin, your tweeted a swore an oath to defend the constitution. if true these new allegations

against the president are a threat to our national security and constitute an impeachable offense. how are you -- how are you doing with communicating these efforts and this position that you are holding with your constituents? >> sure. so, you know, obviously this can be a divisive issue in my district. but i think for all of us who signed the op ed, we've all served previously, either in the military or government. we've aun all sworn an oath many times in our career and as congress people. i think the district i come from and for abigail as well, they supported us and elected us because they want leaders with integrity. so while it maybe a controversial issue, when you look at the facts and you look at this specific instance, i think it's a total game changer, i think it's something new and they understand i have to move with my conscious as we all did. >> congresswoman spanberg, he you won your race by less than two points defeating an

incumbent in your district. there's been a lot of talk around impeachment over the last year or so with some people in up-for-grabs districts saying it's just a step i can't take, i'll lose my seat. tell me about your calculation to participate in this op-ed. did you consider the political costs at all as some others have before they've stepped out? >> so in looking at my district, and i'm from a central virginia district, my district did vote for the president in 2016. my calculation is ensuring that 2020 our democracy is stronger and better than our voters feel that their votes count and, for me, the calculation that i put into this is am i standing up for the constitution i swore to uphold? and looking at these allegations, they are so substantial and so deeply concerning that, you know, this doesn't change the fact that that we're focused on legislating, we're focussed on healthcare, prescription drug costs, infrastructure, the issues that are deeply important

to our constituents. but they also elected us to represent them as was said, with integrity. and this is a change, this is uncharted waters where we are right now and it's important for all of us to stand up and ensure that our voters understand the severity and our constituents understand the severity of these allegations and that we are firmly, firmly stating that these, if true, are a threat to us all, a threat to our national security, and we need to stand up and make that clear and make it clear to our constituents. >> the seven of you who authored this op-ed are being characterized as having national security experience. we should be specific, spanberg wars a krarks office, he slatkin cia analyst, served in iraq, state department, among others. let me ask you, congresswoman slotkin, what specifically to you is different about this than what we saw in the case of russia?

what are you seeing in front of you that pushed you to join this op-ed? >> sure. i think the very basic facts that the president of the united states, the commander and chief, would use the leverage of the united states in this case security systems paid for by american taxpayers to try and press a foreign government to pull up dirt on a political opponent. that right there, you know, and there's certainly, you know, candidate trump calling for these things, calling it openly for russia to help about t. but there's president trump after all we've been through doing it again and withholding military assistance. people don't remember it, but there's a hot war going on in eastern ukraine. you start holding back assistance, that's a real lever to use with people. but the very basic idea of getting foreign help to influence american political process, that is beyond the pale. >> so representative slatkiotki you're in the staff the national intelligence during the bush

administration. the statute calling for this missive to be forwarded to the house intelligence committee says it shall be forwardseed. do you say based upon your knowledge of the statute, there is there any wiggle room? is the justice department right or wrong? >> there is no wrig will room. i was there when he were were pushing for whistleblower protections to be applied also to intelligence officers. because for in, many years they were not. federal employees in other departments were covered, but through the process of pushing through the dni's off and help here in congress where are we got those protections for everybody who works for the federal government. they were designed to be air tight. there's a literal legal responsibility by the dni to provide those documents. we hope that he takes that opportunity on thursday. he will have ample room in a public hearing to provide that information and i very much hope he does so because i think the onus is on the administration. right? with rudy giuliani coming out

and saying what he said, that, yes, we actually did ask the ukrainians to find dirt on a political opponent, it is on the administration to either explain how that isn't true or explain their actions. and i think unless we get some sort of miracle, it is important that we look at next steps. and i think our group as national security leaders believe, yes, impeachment inquiry is a possible option. but we want to be muscular about this. there is an inherent contempt, you know, there are new tools that we haven't used that i think we feel strongly should be in the toolkit. >> hi, steve rattner. i assume that you guys have causal conversations with republicans off the floor here and there, wherever you encounter them. do you have a sense as to whether they are simply trying to be loyal to trump, whether they have sympathy for these allegations and think they're credible, whether they're truly worried? do you think in the end this would be a completely partisan

vote? how you to think your republican colleagues are going to ultimately handle this? >> well, i think with the nature of these current allegations they are forward-looking. as was mentioned, this is about the president of the united states withholding foreign military and security assistance, potentially to his own benefit in an election in 2020. and i think that it is going to be important that every member of congress, republican and democrat, weigh in on this issue into the future. in my casual conversations with my republican colleagues i can't yet get a gauge. notably we're just back in session today so i think that this will be much of the -- much of the talking and points of discussion that we have around here. you know, it is my hope that just as we are endeavoring to put country first that we will see republicans step forward and put country over party and certainly over any alegionence

allegiance to a president who is doing this. if these allegations are true, they are highly, highly concerning. they pose a significant risk to our country. and anyone should want to get to the bottom of them. either disproving them or proving them so we can move forward as a country. >> and we will be watching your efforts closely. thank you very much. congresswoman abigail spanberger and elissa slotkin. thank you both very much. and president trump has behaved like no other president in modern history. "new york times" is laying out the facts about how he's changed the presidency. plus, how are republicans surviving the trump vortex? david drucker explores that for vanity fair. that's all coming up next on "morning joe." that's all coming up next on "morning joe." ♪

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you have some very bad people in that group. but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. my people came to me, dan coats

came to me and some others. they said they think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i will say this, i don't see any reason why it would be. >> couple of moments from president trump's time in office so far. moments our next guest says has forever altered the presidency. david joins us now. he's an op-ed columnist for the new york finals. his latest column is donald trump versus the united states of america. david calls it, quote, just the facts in 40 sentences. also with us senior political correspondent for the washington examiner david drucker who is also a contributing writer at vanity fair. he's got a new piece for the magazine entitled boom or bust. how republicans are surviving life in the trump vortex. good to have you both on. david, let me start with your piece and we can talk about this through the -- through the david -- we have two davids,

through the pris sm that we hav in front of us. what does this story tell you and how does it fit into the puzzle you've put together in your piece? >> it really does fit in this pattern. even if we restrict ourselves to what the president's lawyer rudy giuliani and he have acknowledged, there's this pattern in which he undermines the united states on the world stage. you played the clip of him undermining u.s. intelligence altion agencies while standing next to putin. he coz decides up to foreign dictators. he pushes away our allies. he hired a national security adviser who he knew had been secretly working for turkey. there's this pattern in which he undermines us on the world stage. he breaks the law whether itness to pay hush money to cover up extramarital affairs. he calls barbara bush nasty while he calls white supremacists very fine people. there just has never been a president in our lifetimes, probably ever, in either party who has treated the office and the country with such

disrespect. so what i tried to do was in my column this week just list 40 sentences without a lot of judgments or opinion and just put the facts out there and say, look, this is what he has done as president. this is who he is. and the question is, what are we going to do about it? >> and as crow poiyou point outf it's in the open. it's on a tv interview or press conference that the president of the united states doing things that are unprecedented, which is a word that's thrown around pretty casually but often it's true. >> in the "new york times" if you put unprecedented you have to go through this process to get it approved. >> sure. >> but many of these things are. and i deliberately left out matters of policy. i disagree with him on climate change. i disagree with him on tax policy. but this isn't about that. this is about the way he treats other human beings, the way he treats the office, the way he treats the country. and actually many of his worst bits of personal behavior, whether it's his repeated den aggregation of john mccain or

how he treats the bush family are aimed at republicans rather than democrats. >> i love your piece in vanity fair so much, you actually write in the piece, you have quotes in the piece that usually republican members or advisers will say off the record. rarely gets into -- rarely gets into any pieces. but, you have a quote here that sounds so much like what i've heard from people off the record for years. this from a veteran republican strategist. do i think trump say horrible person? yes. but that's so beyond the point. as a republican i hate him because he's making us lose when we should be crushing it. it's his stupid personality. if he were slightly less tarn terrible, we would be winning. the democrats are nuts. they are going to fundamentally rescue thin countrescue thin co because some guy can't control

his 2-year-old tantrums. this is what i hate about the guy. >> yeah, joe, in talking to republicans, really over the past four years but especially since the president was inaugurated, there's such a complicated relationship at the have with him because on the one hand aside from all of the power politics that we focus on so often, so many republicans are in washington and in politics generally because they're pretty conservative. really unlike the president. and they care a lot about a lot of these policy goals. and what they're dealing with here is somebody who will give them just enough to keep hanging on and then keep reminding them why he doesn't -- why they don't like him and yet had they consider not necessarily supporting a democrat, but sitting on their hands, letting things shake out to sow that so party can rebuild in a more normative direction if there's a market for that, there's listening to a lot of the progressive democrats who do

want to change the country and they're very open about that. and they're thinking to themselves, this is not something that i can abide by, it's not what i signed up for so it may sound strange to democrats who look at trump's behavior and everything else an behavior and wonder how anyone can stick by him, but i think it is republicans looking at democrats being dangerous in one way and people who look at trump being dangerous in another way. and it really messes with their head but it makes it a very confusing issue for them. >> i hear it every day from rank and file republicans who loathe trump but fear democrats more. one presidentle advisor said if you give republicans a chance to vote for a sociopath or a socialist, they will vote for the sociopath every time. >> so many republicans were

thinking of sitting on their hands, and they're looking at elizabeth warren, great candidate, very progressive, and they're thinking i'll take trump over her, i can't believe i have to help this guy because she would be work than him. and this is really to the president's benefit. >> we'll see what happens in the next five months, but david lee, i'll give you another quote from the other david's article here. we're talking about democrats here, how can they survive a possible impeachment inquiry? some republicans can't take it any more. they're voting with their feet. respective susan brooks in

indiana, the person among recruitment is among those running for the exits, david? >> yeah, i think that is absolutely why we see republicans leaving. i think some of the republican stuff about socialism wrong. hillary clinton was not a socialist and everyone lined up behind donald trump. i admire those quitting. i think some of those staying are always going to find an execution for why they're supporting trump. they made it about hillary clinton personally. i think at the end of the day they're essentially willing to follow trump because he is popular with the base and the other stuff ends up being excuses. >> those are the rank and file members that i can tell you have a choice between getting their

health care taken away. that is what it would do, take away private health care insurance. what we saw in the first debate, david, where you had the talk about decriminalization of illegal border crossings. health care benefits for illegal immigrants. that actually is not ration rationalizational. >> i wrote a column that said stop helping trump, i think it is really bad mistakes. i think if it were that people would find another reason to line up behind trump. and that is why the president is going after joe biden.

and that is why he is trying to create a benghazi like environment around joe biden, and in a way that is such an affront to the constitution and the values that republican senators used to wax on about back in the day. did you find any republican senators that you believe could be the person. i keep thinking of lamar alexander. he is not running again. he is smart, he knows how bad this it is. look, there is always a chance, but for a a lot of republicans, they're realizing if trump goes down that bad. someone who is not inclined to get into public fights with

trump and doesn't necessarily have a problem with trumpism per se. i want to find out. and the danger for democrats is that we're moving ahead for a story line. they're sort of assuming that is where it will end up. things can act very bad. there was a ton of smoke, but never a smoking gun that was able to communicate to voter this is is a bad guy that needs to go and if they don't see something like that they're going to hold their cards close to their vest and keep going the way they have. >> gentleman, thank you very much. >> thank you.

very both of you, we come to a critical point between republicans and house democrats. we'll have that plus the new reporting overnight that helped get us to this stage. as we go to break, yesterday president trump championed religious liberty on what he called the first meeting of religious freedom hosted by a president at the united nations this year. >> it is since he took over, bus he remarkable clash with his own record making no mention of his proposed muslim ban. >> protecting religious freedom is one of my highest priorities and always has been. donald j. donald trump is calling for a total and complete shut down of muslims entering

the united states. >> our founders understood that no right is more understood mental to a peaceful, prosperous, and virtuous society. >> you're going to have to watch and study the mosques. >> today with one clear voice the united states of america calls upon the nations of the world to end religious persecution. >> if you have people coming out of mosques with hatred and death in their eyes and their minds we have to do something. we're always a voice for victims of religious persecution everywhere. >> should been a database system to track the muslims in the country. >> we must all work together to protect communities of other places. >> christians can come in but

muslims can't. >> silencing, shunning, or sensoring the faithful. >> i want surveillance of these people. i get it all the time. "have you lost weight?" of course i have- ever since i started renting from national. because national lets me lose the wait at the counter... ...and choose any car in the aisle. and i don't wait when i return, thanks to drop & go. at national, i can lose the wait...and keep it off.

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iran is a different place than when i took over. iran was a real threat to the entire middle east and maybe beyond. >> yes, president trump yesterday reflecting on when he "took over" the united states. >> he took over the united states. welcome to morning joe. it is tuesday, september 24. so we have carol lee with us. associated editor of the washington post and nsnbc political analyst.

and national editor at the spnl times, edward laos is with us. >> hold on, what was it, can i ask willy a quick question. >> what was it like when you took over mbc. >> i mean, this is -- this day put to the side, this day could be historic in some ways. this is a significant day. nancy pelosi being pushed very hard. something she wanted to stay away from for a long time. she has a big meeting this an afternoon. >> i think anyone that is saying let's wait and see what other information we have especially as it pertains to the quid pro

quo, was anything promised, but we have new information this morning that he was with holding military aide, but what he already admitted, what the wall street journal reported is that he pressured a foreign leader eight times to interfere with american politics by basically conducted opposition research. at the same time the white house was withholding -- at the same time the white house was withholding military support as they had to worry about vladimir putin, who has invaded their country. so again it is a personal layer, he could not even hide behind an official action like talk to our secretary of state or talk to our secretary of defense.

so the situation is damming enough as it is, that said, i think having an inquiry -- >> i didn't know that mick mulvaney could withhold funds, strange, new reporting overnight concerning the president and ukraine. three senior administration officials say the president ordered his acting chief of staff to hold back nearly $400 million in million tear aid. that reporting has since been matched by the new york times and the wall street journal. administration officials were instructed to tell lawmakers

that the delays were part of an interagency process but to give them no additional information. a pattern that continued congress is now investigating whether or not the president froze the military aide. while the president denies that direct connection, he did connect the funding to corruption, and corruption to joe biden. >> did you tell them they would have the ade only if they investigated joe biden and his family. >> no, i didn't, i did not make a statement that you have to do this or i'm not going to give you aide. i would not do that. i would not do that. >> we're sporting a country and we want to make sure that country is honest. if you don't talk about junction why would you give money to a country that you think is

construction. >> there was no prush on th-- pressure on them whatsoever. i think it would have been okay if i did. they want to do the right thing. they know about constructirrupt. if you see the call, i hope you see it, frankly. >> sir, you can release, you can authorize a transcript very easily -- >> i would rather not do it from the standpoint of all of the other conversations i have. i hope you get to see it and see it soon. >> you say you want want transcript of the call released -- >> i didn't say that at all. it may get released. i don't think it is a great pre precedent to be releasing calls with foreign heads of countries. >> here you have the president of the united states doing what he does.

rudy giuliani has done the same thing. they go out and admit it. they admit it in the light of day, like someone admitting yes, i robbed the bank, of i robbed the bank, but you need to focus on the bank president. they were that is what is happening here. the president has admitted, the president of the united states admitted that while military aide make to protect that country against vladimir putin, he held up that money and at the same time eight times pressured the president of the ukraine to dig up opposition research for his personal law.

work with my personal lawyer. there is no official capacity to this. they are going to dig up dirt in the ukraine on his political opponent in the united states. that in and of itself is extraordinary and would be viewed by any congress that had oversight responsibilities in the previous 44 presidents, that would be viewed as impeachable per se. just that fact pattern right now. but now you have the president, of course, debating whether or not he held up arms sales over it, and then he went on to say i could have if i wanted to. so there you have the bank robber admitting that he did exactly what world now knows he

did. >> and as it was reported late last night, the administration held up $391 million in aide in the days before this call to the ukraine. if it wasn't for that kind of a quid pro quo, why did you decide, the president might be asked to hold up that aide in the days before the call. i hope you get to see it soon, and in the next breath saying it sets a bad precedent, you can't see the transcript. also a little rich that suddenly he is very concerned about corruption here. >> we saw it before, should m l muller testify? yes and now. and there are people in the

administration that think you should not set a precedent. that is not going to it is not going to go away, it is going to continue. he has this -- him saying look, i did nothing wrong, but here is what i did. the earliest version was in the administration. even if he did talk action ises, there was nothing wrong with that. he is putting forward a very typical play book. and when you talk to people in congress and you see what is coming out from the democrats, it just doesn't look like it will be enough this time. >> so willy to your point about

the president changing his point in realtime, this is a real back flip. >> this is a call, i hope you see it, you will find out that i did not do that at all. >> you said you want the tra transcript released -- >> i didn't say that at all. >> when you see the call, if you see it, i hope you see it, frankly, you will find out that i did not do that at all. >> so, there is obviously a back and forth time and again, the same thing many times he said he hoped to release them and then he didn't release them. and getting to the bigger order from mick mulvaney, holding up the arms transfer that was approved by congress.

we may have been hearing some of the same things from our sources that work in earn europe, that the money was being held up, the arms sales were being held up because jump wanted to dig up investigation on joe biden and he was pressuring ukraine to do that. that was back in august. the someone times also wrote about this possibility as well. should the democrats move forward? what is the next step? >> those charges are deadly serious. i don't think there is any real precedent in american history for a president asking the leader of a foreign power. a young very prowestern very anti -- he was elected on an anti-corruption ticket, to kick up research on his opponent,

this just has not happened. we had other fapgss, but none on this scale. what will happen is a slightly different matter. an nancy pelosi has lawmakers saying they would like to move ahead with impeachment. it seems like the tide is swelling. but that is another 60 or 70 votes and mathematically she can't call for a vote if she doesn't know she going to win. there are dozens of freshman in districts that trump won in 2016. they will be provaricating

whether or not this is an act of political suicide. >> president trump talking about fact checking himself. he may not like what chet smith had to say about it. >> that conversation is straight ahead. first, here is bill karens with a check on the forecast. >> a busy day, a tropical storm, we're still dealing with it in areas of arizona. numerous water rescues your needed. this lady was rescued using a hook and ladder truck. a lot of roads washed out and to the radar we go. heavy thunderstorms south of phoenix. to the tornado threat, watch out this afternoon from iowa, des moines, ames, to rochester

minnesota, storms and even hail. as far as karen goes, it is nearing puerto rico. this will drag over the top of puerto rico later on tonight. flash flood and mud slide threat into we have a long way to go on this one. but no immediate threat and the other sorry, the fall that feels like summer. 90s in dallas and florida. cooler today in the northeast, enjoy it back into the 80s this coming weekend. a gorgeous morning this morning. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. "morning jo" we'll be right back. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) performance comes in lots of flavors.

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did you tell the leader they would only have the aide if they investigated joe biden's family? >> joe biden was very dishonest high pressure he said if they don't do this or that and get rid of a certain prosecutor. because because you're a faker, you're fake news people, you reported that, i didn't say it. >> we want to play this segment by two fox news -- >> an in this case he say it's will hurt joe biden as well. take a look. >> there is no known evidence that biden did anything wrong. the whole thing involved corruption in ukraine. a corrupt prosecutor who much of the world was pressuring ukraine

to remove earlier this year. a ukrainian official said there was no evidence of wrong doing by joe biden or his son, hunter. the real issue here is the phone call, the claim that the president pressured a foreign leader to investigate a foreign rival. >> who is in more trouble here. the president that had the call with the leader or joe biden that did have a quid pro quo. >> that depends on who you ask. >> i think this is a serious charge guest the president, more than what bob mueller dragged up against him. it appears that a quarter of a billion dollars in defensive weaponry was held back for a period of time while these conversations were going on between the president.

>> there is a couple sources they have that are apparently privy to this phone conversation. they say there was no specific quid pro quo. >> if you're the president of the united states and you're making a conversation that you you know your intelligence committee is listening too, of course you will not articulating a quid pro quo, you will must make it happen. >> he would never say on the phone call that there is a quid pro quo, but there are facts in front of us. we have congress passing $391 million of military support for ukraine. after they have attacked, and barack obama has attacked barack obama for years for not sending that sort of defense weaponry to ukraine, and then donald trump decides in the middle of july suddenly to tell mick mulvaney

hey, kill that, we're not twoing -- going to send that over. then suddenly, he talks eight times to the president of the ukraine. eight times saying you need to work with my personal lawyer. they have a good conversation, he apparently gets reassurances, and then what happens? the $391 million is released. i suggest that among american citizens, that is pretty strong evidence. >> yeah, you would love this case if you were a prosecutor wouldn't you? and the question of whether or not there is an explicit profer

is irrelevant. this is the kind of thing that prosecutors overhear on wiretaps of organized crime figures of the time. you have a nice little eastern half of yourdown try there. and this is truly -- outrageous is a word that we have used many times in the past few years, and when you run out of words, but this, the facts that we know already. let's investigate more and find out more, but the fact that we know already are just on their face impeachable. >> this is really bad for our country. >> this cannot happen in the united states of america. maybe in mugabe's zimbabwe, but not in the united states of

america. this is not the way our country does business. it is the new pressure facing a ruling by the british high court that has boris johnson on the ropes. we'll dig into that next on "morning joe."

welcome back to morning joe. breaking out of britain. boris johnson's losing streak. this is a supreme court decision that i'm shocked by. he decided to suspend parliament. but the court has decided something completely different. a stunning decision, tell us about it. >> so 11 judges unanimously rule

that boris's advice to the queen to suspend parliament was based on bad advice. essentially in plain english that he lied to the between. and most people think it was to prevent any debate on brexit. that that is fully illegal. no nuance about this. parliament has to reconvene. the speaker said it will reconvene and it has to start doing it's work again. it is a deep humiliation for boris. johnson who is in new york at the moment about to give a big speech today to the u.n. general assembly, and may well have to return to britain, calls for his resignation. i doubt he can be shamed into resigning, but parliament will

have to resign. but it is another retreat in a long line of pure defeats. >> and what a devastating defeat and, a court, in effect, as you said saying that boris johnson lied to the queen. your colleague in the final times, phillip stevens wrote on the 25th of september that it strips democracity of trust, self truths. it is majortarianism of the law. how impactful will ruling be that determines the prime minister of great brieten ltain to the queen. >> it depends on how he can be shamed. on current evidence that he is sort of making a bid for

shamelessness. these types of advisors believe that boris should just ignore legal rulings. plow ahead over the clip. at some point in the coming weeks, there will have to be a general election whether or not boris resigns or not. they are going to run against the people. as hard as that might sound to american ears, today's supreme court ruling might reinforce that campaign line because they can portray these as part of the deep state. there is a very trumpian lonlic

to this we might think this, we might be out there. what are the people there feeling much attention. do they care about their 11 judges. and i don't know the answer to that any more than i would know the answer to whether or not the american elect terrrelectorate the differences and what president trump has actually done. steve, you have covered british politics for the government and the "new york times." your reaction to the ruling and how much further does this get boris juns that his ultimate goal of moving forward on brexit. >> this is unprecedented in my

experience of having covered the uk and having watched it fairly well. if you want to judge by how the financial markets are reacting, suggesting that the market thinks there is some chance this will derail his most extreme and outland i outlandish claims on the eu. there is a parallel here. we're going to be relying on the courts and what you saw in the uk were the courts standing up for the right thing in an almost unprecedented way. and we will see and hear whether or not our courts are also going to act in a responsible way when the time comes which i think it will. >> coming up on morning joe, president trump attends the u.n. climate summit for a whole 14 minutes. >> but it seemed like he was there for longer. >> yeah. >> we'll talk about what is

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this is all wrong. i should not be up here. i should be back in school on the other side of the ocean. yet you have come to us young people for hope. how dare you. you have stolen my dreams and my childhood with your empty words. and yet i'm one of the lucky ones. people are suffering people are dieing and entire eco systems are collapsing. we're in the beginning of a mass extinction and all you can talk about is money and fairy tales

of eternal economic growth. how dare you. >> teen climate activist greta thunberg replying to a tweet that contained a long clip, he said seems like a happy young girl with a promising future. lewis alfonso de alba and michael man. the author of the book "the madhouse effect." how climate change denial is threatening our plant, destroying our politics and driving us crazy. i will start with you. greta's passion reflects what really is happening and we are still arguing whether or not it

exists? >> yes, thank you, it is good to be with you. it was a very powerful speech on her part. it is ironic that in some corners we are still arguing about whether or not this problem exists when we're seeing the impacts of climate change playing out now in the storm of unprecedented cycles. this is going to be -- this is the defining moment of our time. and we will look back to whether or not we acted in time. we can't wait until they're able to vote and parties bait directly in the political process. they are depending on us to act now to make sure that we make decisions now that do not mortgage the planet. >> you have spoken out from the

un about achieving renewable energy by 2030, that is only 11 years off now? >> the company allows us to do it and if we scale up the use of the renewables, and if we invest and continue to develop new options and technology, it is possible. if you look at the cost of renewable today, it is cheaper than coal in many parts of the world. >> as you know very well, there are a lot of politics at work here, do you agree that renewable energy is achievable by 2030? >> there are peer reviewed studies and science done to show that we can make that transition entirely away from fossil fuels. studies suggest it might take

longer but it comes down to us. there are no physical constraints or laws that say we can't do it. it is a matter of will power. are we willing to take the steps to put the frt to provide the incentives necessary to do that. it is within our grasp to do that. >> one of the excuses that this administration and frankly lots of politicians glus this country is that even if we do better it doesn't really act for the other problems that they are causing as it relates to global warming. as you visit it countries around the world, especially those contributing meaningful warming to our our atmosphere, do you think they're going to begin to realize that it is not

sustainable. >> i think they got the message quite area and they're moving in the right direction, but they need to speed up. that is why they called directly on china, india, and other big economies and emerging countries, to they need to act in the corporation it is possible if you look two the development of renewable energy in india. it is impressive. it is possible, but at the same time, you need to be aware there is a transition and that transition needs to take into affe account the needs of people. we cannot do it without the energy needed. >> prettyices say why should we

do anything when china is not acting. they're flooding the marketplace with cheap solar panels. they are taking them offline until we elect a president that says guess what, we're pulling out of the paris accord. i'm going to do my part. that sent signals that maybe we don't have to. we have seen carbon emissions go out yet. >> michael, following up on that, one of the elements of the dialogue about climb change central america has an impact on us because of climate change. africa has an impact on europe because of climate change. why is more not made of it? >> well, it is.

our national security leaders have been clear on it. it is a threat multiplier. it heightens the tensions and what is ironic, again, is we should ignore climate change and focus on real problems like international terrorism. isis formed in syria in an environment where there was an unprecedented drought that forced rural farmer into the city where they were competing for food, water, and space. it was leading to a terror organization forming. they are intimately linked. >> thank you for being on the show this morning and we want to get your take on raising the

qualification threat hold that candidates will need to meet. candidates will now have to hit 3% in early states in national polls that meet the dnc's national requirements. or 5% in the four early states. so that is up from the 2% threshold to qualify for september and october debates. the number of unique donors will also increase. from 130,000 to 165,000, and they will have to hit the polling and grass roots threshold. so far, they are well above the new polling trehreshold. >> we have been at this for

awhile. if you can't get to 3% in polls, if you can't get to that many donors, then i think the dnc is doing the right thing here. those trying to make up their mind in a crowded field need the issues to come into focus. now that is painful for the great people that are running and there are many of them that are my friends and i know they want to make that debate stage. they still have an alternative no go under ground. in they break into that five they will have a resurgence. we're going to lose viewers for these debates if we don't start whittling it down. >> thank you we have more developing news right now. congressman antonio del gato

said the first speedometer of the president of the united states is to keep our country same but it has become clear he placed his personal interests above the sbergss of the nation n national security. here we go, we'll be watching this story today with all that is going on. also ahead -- >> mr. president -- >> i think i'm going to get a noble prize -- they gave one to obama immediately upon his assent to the presidency and he had no idea why he got it, that was the only thing i agreed with him on. >> he wants to know where is my

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he wanted a son different from the son that god gave him. it was a sense of shame and his father gave him the language for law and politics to express his shame. >> i was in office when nancy reagan said thank you for getting him elected. >> don't settle, don't apologize, attack. >> when you look at his life, he is shining the life on demagoguery. >> that is a look at the new film where is my roy cohn. one of the most influential american men of the 20th century. one who say he helped elect several presidents of joining us now is matt, great to have you

on. where is my roy cohn? >> he knew, roy cohn was trump's men tire. some people say that donald trump is roy cohn. he wasccarthy's chief aide. he was whispering in the ear of mccarthy all of the time, and he brought us back to his version of the bad hold days. now we call it trumpism, but we need to understand what this is to understand where we are now. >> so his dark evil menacing spirit was first board leaning over the shoulder of joe mccarthy, the army of mccarthy hearings.

nationally televised. roy cohen dies years later of aides. my question to you is his inability in that age and that era to be who he was. an openly gae man, he was prohibited from doing that. >> you have to look at the context. so we can't fault him for that. he was a deeply closeted gay man who was also j. edgar hoover. but this difference between the rest of the people. part of the witch hunts was going after the state department. so this level of hypocrisy and destroying of people who are the same of you is really world class and this becomes the

problem and he repeats this throughout his career, and he is the one that gets the electric chair. this expresses a self hating jew that was acting out against the things he want trying to repress. >> this film is so timely because you use it to explore a bigger theory of the big lie. that maybe the public will doubt a small lie, but if it is so ridiculous and rewhat did you learn about what he was successful in that era and what does it teach us about him now. >> it comes from nazi germany,

and what we see is if you have the demagog, and if you have them willing to take the lies and expand it out, you're in deep trouble. he learns this from cohen. they met in the 1970s. he defends them in an antihousing suit, and he teaches them how to perpetrate the big lie, keep lying, double down. all of these techniques that we see on a daily basis that are demagogue techniques. and he puts them ahead of trump and trump is perpetrating them every day. now he has the believe pulpit. and this is why we have come to this moment that is so deeply dangerous for our republic.

>> but trump the disciple learned very clearly, that if you meet trump individually one on one, and most people that do meet him in that situation, he is still in the hospitality business. he is charming and friendly and pleasant, funny, all of those things, roy cohn was none of those. >> i think that is wrong. and i was surprised to find that when i was making the film. first of all as a reporter for vanity fair my first job when i was 22 was to interview trump at mar-a-lago. they thought he was a character in the -- he is no dumby, she a media manipulator. what i discovered is cohen,

entice the sinister in his life funny, gossipy, there is a whole code of society at the time. they loved him and they were willing to forgive him because of a favor bank. a back scratching culture. and he was wonderful in that atmosphere. he was like a thriving hot house flower in this special world and peek gave him a big break and let him go and go and go. the parallels are not exact. i hate to quote scaramucci, but it is like mccarthy and cohn had

a baby and it is donald trump. >> thank you, hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. we're just about one our from one of the most important speeches of president trump's career. when he takes his place in front of world leaders at the u.n. he will be speaking to skeptical world leaders. his administration hampered by the growing threat of impeachment and more and more questions about whether or not he abused his presidential power to hurt a political opponent. it is a sight unlike anything we have seen in modern times and it could set the stage for one of the most consequence stial days his presidency. we will be watching the political firestorm as it develops in dc. we're going to use all of the lourss a