happening right now in congress is not helping democrats. >> i think it's a witch hunt but i would like to see him out of office for many things that he's done. >> i think he's probably the biggest disgrace that this country has ever seen. >> now to breaking news this hour. a brand new bombshell report as the trump ukraine scandal deepens. we're learning what president trump toent two russian officials in the now-infamous meeting in the oval office in may of 2017. date after he fired former fbi director james comey. the "washington post" told trump told the russians that quote he was unconcerned about moscow's interference in the u.s. election. because the united states did the same in other countries. that's an assertion that prompted alarmed white house officials to limit access to the remarks to an unusually small number of people. according to three former officials with knowledge of the matter. this new revelation comes as an impeachment inquiry takes shape on capitol hill.

house speaker nancy pelosi stressing the urgency of the investigation. as intel chair adam schiff instructs the committee to work through recess. >> this is not a pause for any joy that we have to go down this path. it's a difficult decision to make. but we have that obligation. because in the actions that were taken could undermine the constitution and the oath we take to protect and defend, including the oath that the president takes. >> house democrats issuing their first subpoena as they focus on the whistle-blower complaint about the president's july call with ukraine's leader. the chairman of house intelligence oversight and foreign affairs committees demanding secretary of state mike pompeo produce documents related to trump's dealings with ukraine by friday. the committee is requesting and scheduling depositions from five senior state department officials in the coming two weeks.

"the new york times" reports and nbc news confirms one of those officials, kurt voeckler, trump's special envoy to ukraine has now resigned. the state department has acknowledged voelk volcker has put trump's personal attorney rudy giuliani. president trump's attorney is dismissing these investigative efforts by democrats as the impeachment inquiry unfolds. >> there's no high crime. no misdemeanor, no violation of a law, rule or regulation, it's already been, the justice department when they looked at it, said there was no violation here. so i think this is just a political theater, that's what it is. >> joining me is elena trooen, white house reporter for axios and susan del persio, republican strategist and msnbc political strategist. welcome as we get started this morning. kevin you've got the subpoena for documents and witnesses from

the secretary of state. what does that entail? who are we looking at as far as the people involved? >> well look we're looking at rudy giuliani and a host of other individuals. i'm told by sources on capitol hill that the house intelligence committee is fully prepared to continue to have meetings during their two-week recess. that kicks off on monday. i'm also told that these hearings in the senate are also going to kick-start. that's where a lot of the attention ought to lie. if the house does vote to impeach president trump, they would need two-thirds in the senate to convict. and right now republicans are standing behind senate majority leader mitch mcconnell and president trump. >> so what are democrats expecting to learn elena, when three committees depose kurt volker on october 3rd? could you say his resignation was expected? >> before saying that, i have a give a shout-out to the journalist, arizona state university who had broken the

story that he had resigned. but yes, he is definitely implicated in this and i think his resignation shows how there's a ton, there's a host of individuals within the trump administration who are linked into this. we saw vice president mike pence, secretary of state mike pompeo. kurt volker, the former special envoy to the ukraine. that's lot of moving parts here and i think a big thing that democrats are worried about is that they want to keep this narrow straight into ukraine. make sure that they can wrap up some of these investigations. because they recognize that next year is 2020, it's an election year. and if they're going to move forward with potential articles of impeachment with several people on the hill and lawmakers i speak to say speaker nancy pelosi needs to move forward with that because the genie is out of the bottle. you can't put the genie back in the bottle. there's a lot of moving parts here and kurt volker, they're looking to understand what the president's interactions with the new ukrainian president

zelensky were and trying to get a good sense of it. there's more conversations he's had with him that weren't disclosed in the whistle-blower complaint or in the memo of the call between the two leaders. >> there's a lot of moving parts. susan, when you have those parts, the pompeo subpoena, and the volker resignation, where do these twists fit into the impeachment saga? >> the democrats are going to have to lay out their case, they can use the whistle-blower complaint as a guideline and we know that it's been validated by trump's appointed inspector general. so now they're trying to see how do all the pieces work in. so that's what they have to do in order to present the american public with a case that they can get behind, frankly and that make it beyond the partisanship. make it here's the facts, here's the data and this is what we're

going on. >> what are they hoping to get, elena, when it comes to this meeting with the inspector general, michael atkinson, behind closed doors next friday, especially given the fact that the complaint is already public? i know they're expecting it to be the most detailed. he said that this is an urgent concern what do they want to hear? >> i would argue that short of hearing from the whistle-blower, either him or her, we don't know the identity, michael atkinson, the inspector general, will be able to provide a lot of answers, probably better thaen than anyone else, because he's the one that's been handling the whistle-blower complaint. he described it as an urgent concern. i think from the members i spoke with about the hearing next week, they're trying to get especially given it's a closed-door session, they can get more answers out of this, than they would if it was a public hearing like we saw with mcguire the acting dni director on thursday.

they want to learn is there more to this? what else have you learned in your investigation of this whistle-blower complaint? are there other classified conversations that potential have been put into a classified setting that potentially shouldn't have been? there's a lot of questions that democrats are trying to get answers to. and on the republican side, they're going to be looking at, is this whistle-blower complaint that credible? they're going to be looking at potentially undermining his credibility. and the intelligence community's credibility as well. just like we saw with the russia investigation. >> especially given the developments happening at lightning speed. you fast-forward from the past ten days, adam schiff says he wants this by the end of the year. how fast to democrats expect to conduct this inquiry? if they want it done by the end of the year, what's the -- how thorough can it be, given that? >> i think that these investigations on capitol hill have lasted for several months. the six committees that have been looking into this at speaker pelosi's urging.

my working understanding from the reporting i've gathered on capitol hill is that speaker pelosi would like to see this wrapped up by the end of the calendar year, which means i'm told by one source on capitol hill who works for a prominent democratic member which means that articles of impeachment around thanksgiving. and then senate majority leader mitch mcconnell has said publicly in an npr interview this week that would mean that the trial would be very shortly thereafter. remember there's an urgency on both sides to get this done and to get this done quickly. and also, there's a 2020 election in just 13 months. and the iowa caucus is february 3. >> that little thing on the calendar that we all know is coming. so susan, is this political when it comes to this timeline? >> well of course, the whole process is political. impeachment is a political process, but it is, it's smart. it's what needs to get done, as kevin pointed out, we have the iowa primary coming up in january. so or iowa caucus.

so it's important that they, they get this done as quickly as possible. what it also does, frances, is it allows it to stay in a very narrow scope and that's the key here is to keep this narrow, present the facts on the president's conversation on the facts gathered by the whistle-blower and that validated by the inspector general. and call it to a vote. they can't look like they're just trying to rehash everything. >> we got to leave it at that we're going to, we're going to be with you in a little bit. for now, i want to bring in hans nichols at the white house. we'll check back in with you in a little bit. how is the white house digesting all that's unfolded this week and what's the strategy moving forward? >> it doesn't appear we know the strategy or there is a clear strategy for all this. what we've seen from the president's twitter feed at least is that they're going to attack the notion of a whistle-blower. now the president shifted his tone on this a little bit. the most recent thing we got from the president on this is he is suggesting the whistle-blower

is partisan operative. now you heard from the president's lawyer, jay sekulow yesterday kind of disputing this very notion that he's even a whistle-blower at all. >> this individual that decided to spy on the president's conversation based on hearsay information -- that's a better way of saying it. whatever you want to do on that front, this individual had no firsthand knowledge of anything. nothing. had no idea. the phraseology, the footnotes this wasn't drafted by this individual. this was written bay law firm. and you know what? the american people see it for what it is. no one has the, nobody has the appetite for this any more. they want to keep doing it -- call for a vote. that's what i tell jerry nadler and adam schiff, call for a vote. >> there is in your reporting out there that said the whistle-blower worked with a law firm. that's an allegation from the president's attorney. we've seen allegations from rudy

giuliani. it was giuliani insisting he is was working with the state department in some ways invited congress to go ahead and subpoena state department documents. remember they're asking mike pompeo for certain documents, they want depositions, they're demanding all this i think the challenge for whouts this morning is they're grappling with the resignation of kurt volcker, the special envoy for ukraine. how they explain that is going to be interesting in the next 24-48 hours. we heard from nancy pelosi last night. her consistent line is she's taking no joy in these impeachment proceedings but that she has an obligation and a duty to do them and to undertake these proceedings and to follow it wherever it may lead. >> hans nichols thank you. i want to bring back in our panel again. picking up with hans' reporting. you have heard from jay sekulow there defending the president, saying it was secondhand information. how far is this argument going

to go when it comes to defending the president? >> as far as it needs to. we've seen that team trump will do whatever they can, not to show that he's innocent or right, but rather to discredit other people. that's the only thing they have going for them right now. there is no strategy, there's no war room gearing up for this impeachment. the white house staff is scurrying around because they're frightened and scared because they don't know what they don't know. and only a few people do. 0 so i think that's the strategy. the only strategy that the white house has at this point. >> let's talk about the timeline again kevin. given the fact that we did get this memo and the notes about phone call. is there any indication that the white house regrets releasing that? and is it clear that the president really wanted to get it out there because he seems to think that this is going to clear me. >> that's such a great question to susan's point, i think there's a frustration to answer your question directly, from senior republicans in the senate, about a lack of cohesive

coordinated response from 1600 pennsylvania avenue. quite honestly that would suggest that perhaps they were caught off-guard by the just how quickly all of this has come about. but no doubt i think that over the next 48 to 72 hours, you're sort of seeing this by the trial balloons that are being floated by giuliani and other interviews that they're going to try to come up with a concerted effort. >> do you think they should have already done that, alayna? when it comes to the main theme that these guys are going to back the president when it comes to this and defending him. is it clear what the narrative is? should it be clear at this point? >> it's not clear. we see this time and time again with this white house. there's a lot of things that happen quickly and they're not fully prepared for it. that's why we see some fumbles, with conversations i've had with white house officials over the past week, there's a lot of

internal tension on how this is being handled. some officials have told me they privately have been saying they thought rudy seeing the memo of the call was a bad idea. they thought this whistle-blower complaint that was made public beyond the intelligence committee members was also a mistake. and so i think there's a lot of, there isn't a lot of coordination here. they've tried. the day that the call was released, they did call the white house counsel did call some members from the hill to come to the white house to review the memo before they released it from the public to try too coordinate some talking points that didn't works, it was a select few and we heard a lot of republicans on the hill, three some doubt on what was going on. >> thank you to all of you. kevin and alayna, susan you're going to stick around. we'll talk to you in a bit. the what-if scenarios for impeachment. what to expect if there is a trial sw supreme court chief justice john roberts presiding.

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today's new report in the "washington post" on president trump's oval office meeting in 2017 with the russian officials, sergei lavrov and sergei kislyak wrapped up 10 days in washington that included impeachment being launched against the president.

here's how it evolved. >> we have a big story in the "washington post" tonight. it involves a whistle-blower complaint from inside the administration. trump's interaction with the foreign leader included a promise. >> i believe that there is an effort to prevent this information getting to congress. >> the "washington post" just moments ago saying that the whistle-blower's complaint about president trump involves the nation of ukraine. >> did you ask the ukraine to investigate joe biden? >> no. i didn't. >> so you did ask ukraine to look into ukraine. >> of course i did. >> you just said you didn't. >> did you discuss joe biden or his family with the leader of ukraine? >> it doesn't matter what i discussed. >> one single outlet who has given any credit to his assertion. not a single one. i have no comment. >> the conversation i had was largely congratulatory, was

largery corruption, all of the corruption taking place. largely the fact that we don't want our people like vice president biden and his son, creating the corruption in the ukraine. >> he may well have crossed the rubicon here. >> i'm announcing the house of representatives is moving forward with an official impeachment inquiry. >> she's talking impeachment. she hasn't seen the phone call. >> the trump administration is releasing what the president describes as the transcript of that phone call that launched the democrats' impeachment investigation. >> what those notes reflect is a classic mafia-like shakedown of a foreign leader. >> impeachment for that? >> that word now that we have the whistle-blower complaint. if you read through the appendix. it says this -- according to white house officials i spoke with. this was not the first time under this administration a presidential transcript was placed into this code word level system solely for the purpose of protecting politically sensitive

rather than national security sensitive information. not the first time. >> great. >> this is a cover-up. this is a cover-up. >> i think the whistle-blower did the right thing. i think he followed the law every step of the way. >> actually think they should all congratulate me. in fact i'm a legitimate whistle-blower. >> we expect more subpoenas to go out fir thing next week as well. we're moving with all speed. >> no doubt a lot to digest for the past ten days. helping us do that is congressman gregory meeks, democrat from new york and member of the financial services and foreign affairs committee who joins me here today. congressman as always great to have you with me. let's jump right into it. you got today's "washington post" reporting the revelations on the russian story and the impeachment, calls to the ukrainian leader to you, which is more concerning? >> well they're both concerning. but the main thing that we need to focus on right now is the call to the ukrainian president.

it's a national security issue. where we have a president trying to hold and utilize taxpayer money to get the president of ukraine to help him with his election in 2020. that's just clear and concise. we are talking about the security of our elections. and a president of the united states holding back money that was appropriated in a bipartisan manner to a nation. and then there's a connection between russia, who is on the sovereign property of ukraine, that's tied therein. that is very, very serious. >> where does this stand as far as the reporting today on that oval office meeting with the russians? is he saying no, you know it doesn't concern me. it's something the united states does. >> you know it is something that i think that has gotten so used to, unfortunately, of not listening to this president, but not holding him. when he was a candidate. he said russia, do what you can do.

he was asking russia to try to get involved. but he had a conversation with another journalist. he said if he had the opportunity to get information from another country, yes, i think i want to do that. he's telling you. i mean he's basically making all these confessions himself. and now, i walk around with this transcript. because it's his words. >> and here we are, given the memo, the notes from that call. and now we're talking about impeachment, an inquiry from nancy pelosi talking about timelines here. i want to listen to what she had to say and then ask you about it. >> i think that we should move with purpose and expeditiously, not hastily, though, it doesn't have to drag on. no use to just say by such-and-such a date. but looking at the shall we say the material that the administration is giving us, they are actually speeding up the process. >> so we've heard dates around there. end of the calendar year, adam

shif talking about the end of the year as well. how do you see this unfolding timelinewise with the leeway to go to 2020 and the election? >> i think that speaker pelosi is right we want to make sure we do all due diligence. it should not take a long period of time. basically because you've got a lot of admissions by the president himself. and you know the parties that are involved. you know that rudy giuliani is involved. and the attorney general barr is involved. and from the whistle-blower, we know there are other individuals that have seen and talked to the whistle-blower about what took place. so i think that you don't need a long, drawn-out period of time that you're going to, do our due diligence. >> can it be thorough? >> yes. going to be a thorough, i think that you have a line of witnesses that you could always, already begin to focus on. many of them are within the administration themselves. so i think that we can do it in a timely fashion and clear fashion. so that the american people can

plainly see and hear for themselves. that's why again i walk around with this document, the american people should just read it. we think they should read this document and the document that, of the notes, the actual transcript of the phone call. and the document that came from the whistle-blower. just read it. it's clear on its face. >> it was no secret that rudy giuliani has injected himself in this as we saw in the piece before. with the sound bite. you've been a new york congressman since 1998. before that you were involved in new york state politics as well. so you know rudy giuliani a long time. i want to play more of what he said early this week he was on fox news. proclaiming as we heard that he is the whistle-blower here. he's the one uncovering corruption. what do you make of his role in all this? >> you're right, rudy giuliani from the time that he was mayor, you know, he divided this city like no other mayor.

in my lifetime. he was an individual that only met with certain folks and had game plan that you know, it was you always have a thin line almost with him between someone who was a prosecutor, became mayor, to someone who was a mob guy you know because he ran his office and things of that nature. that's what rudy giuliani looks like he's doing right now. he's the president's enforcer. he's the president's guy that he sends out to try to be the bull dog. >> he's named in those notes the memo from the whistle-blower complaint there over two dozen times and i know he played it before. but i want to play a little bit of his exchange with senate minority leader chuck schumer and we'll talk about that as well. >> shut up, you don't know what you're talking about. you don't know what you're talking about, idiot. he said to me, he said about me, that i was asked by the state department to go dig up political dirt on trump's

opponent. totally false. the state department asked me -- >> you just said it. >> no, i didn't. you did, you liar. you did. >> that was exchange with the former aide of chuck schumer. what do you make of that and even when we were playing it before when he was contradicting himself on cnn saying that he was spearheading this whole investigation into biden's -- what do you take from that? >> rudy giuliani is going to at some point i believe he's going to have to be subpoenaed. and people will continue to see his inconsistencies. and the fact that he can't keep a story line straight. >> what would you hope to get from him? what would you want to ask? >> we'll find out all of his involvement in ukraine. he's the one that's been visiting ukraine on a number offense indications. he's the one based upon this document that the president, the president of ukraine, i'm going

to send you rudy giuliani to have rudy giuliani basically direct an investigation that would help him in the 2020 elections. and so we want to make sure that giuliani, that was it the president or was it the state department? as he said. you can't have both. there's inconsistencies there. and we'll be able to bring out those inconsistencies so we can get, this is a pathway to find the truth. so that we can make sure that the american people know where in fact the dangers are of national security. >> a lot of stones along that path. a lot of bricks along the way. thank you so much. i appreciate congressman gregory meeks to be with us here. i want to bring in denny valve 0s and melissa marie a professor of constitutional law at nyu. melissa, let's start with you. walk us through what the constitution says about this entire process? >> the constitution is spare about the impeachment process, the first thing it says is that

the house has to issue the articles of impeachment and a majority of the house has to actually do it. so once the house votes and there's a majority there, it then shifts to the senate which is supposed to conduct a trial on the articles of impeachment where if the president is the subject of impeachment, the chief justice of the u.s. supreme court would preside. that's all that it says. we know that two-thirds of the senate has to actually convict the president in order for the president to be removed. the constitution is pretty spare on this. >> when it comes to that, what's the obligation constitutionally when it comes to senate majority leader mitch mcconnell having an obligation to pass impeachment articles and bring them to a vote in the senate? >> has no specifically detailed expectation in the constitution. but there of course is a public expectation that there will be a trial. here's where the devil is in the details. the senate itself makes up the rules for the impeachment trial. whether they will have opening statements of a particular

length what kind of evidence they'll accept, whether there will be closing statements and basically the senate which is gop controlled can structure the rules in a manner that makes this pretty much pro forma and they can get to the point where they can limit the house manager's ability to prosecute the articles of impeachment to a conviction and removal. so this is a sort of detailed approach that depends on the rules that the senate comes up with. >> if it reaches that point, deniy, i want to ask you what that looks like, you have supreme court justice john roberts who would preside over this trial. the president and roberts have rebuked each other at some point during this presidency. will that have any influence on the chief justice? will he be drafting the rules for the trial? >> no. and there's no constitutional reason that the senate even has to listen to the chief justice. remember the chief justice presides only in presidential impeachments, that means that the chief justice has historically presided over a tiny minority of the overall impeachments, most of which have

been of federal judges. so the chief justice's role is barely defined in the constitution, really other than he shall preside in the case of a president. so then there are all these unanswered questions. can he rule on a motion to dismiss, if it's not an impeachable offense? can he make rulings and does the senate have to listen to them? what is it that he does as his job? because the injection of the chief justice into the process is some kind of judicial veneer over a process that really isn't very judicial ordinarily. it's very political. the best example of that is in a normal criminal trial, your jury is supposed to be in fact they're designed to be and pruned to be impartial. and not biased. the jury, the senate, in an impeachment case is the most biased, opinionated jury you'll ever have. in fact they have their jobs because they're so opinionated and biased. >> as we wrap this up, i want to

ask you what do you see as the most egregious violation here? >> how much time do we have left in the segment? the complaint is a veritable laundry list of really problematic charges. among the most egregious is using the power of the presidency to compel or persuade a foreign dignitary or official to do a personal favor for the president. including prosecuting a political enemy. that's really problematic. more problematic still for the presidency as an institution is this idea that officials within the white house would then secrete the evidence of these meetings and their substance away from public view, flouting all presidential customs and potential record keeping. >> questions coming from the latest reporting on the meeting with the russians in the oval office. thank you. next, the credibility of the whistle-blower and what measures should be take ton prevent retaliation. ♪ (dramatic orchestra)

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developing this hour the impeachment inchoirry taking shape with deliberate speed on

capitol hill. house lawmakers focusing on a whistle-blower's complaint that alleges the president used the power of his office to solicit help in his re-election campaign. joining me is david colopinto a whistle-blower lawyer and the co-founder of the national whistle-blower center. do you think the whistle-blower is going to testify before congress? >> good morning frances. it's unknown whether or not the whistle-blower will testify publicly. but i think it's obvious that the committees are going to want to talk to the whistle-blower at least in camera behind closed doors and executive session. let's talk about how holes will be poked through this and take a listen to republican senator lindsey graham questioning the credibility of the whistle-blower's information and account. >> i think a whistle-blower complaints, i think of somebody who saw something that was wrong and came forward to say so. this is hearsay information.

>> what do you say when it comes to that argument, that it's hearsay, secondhand information and that the complaint isn't valid because of that? >> hello? >> you cannot hear me? okay. now he what we lost the audio and unfortunately we can't continue on with the segment. he's lost the audio. david calopinto the whistle-blower. let's move on to the other side of the story. an nbc exclusive interview with the ukrainian prosecutor who investigated hunter biden's business dealings in the country we'll have that, next. raise your steins to the king of speed. plants capture co2. what if other kinds of plants captured it too? if these industrial plants had technology

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the whistle-blower reports president trump pressing his ukrainian counterpart for an investigation into joe biden and his son. but nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel has more. >> what's your sense of how to the investigation into the bidens was conducted and how it ended? >> so it is amazing that this impeachment move is all focused on ukraine, how this country in central europe could end up bringing down the president of the united states. and it all focuses on president trump's alleged abuse of presidential power to pressure the government of ukraine to pressure ukrainian officials to

cough up information about joe biden. and central to this campaign, central to this pressure campaign which was really exposed when president trump released that transcript or that partial transcript of his foe kahn with the ukrainian president in which he's clearly pressuring the ukrainian president or the ukrainian president said he was not pressured. but if you look at it and you read it, you know that president trump just withheld military aid to ukraine. then it's obvious that the ukrainian president was under duress to cooperate to come up with information. to reopen investigations into the bidens. and then there was this other secret not so secret now back channel in which rudy giuliani was reaching out to ukrainian officials, including the former prosecutor we spoke to. former prosecutor who by the way had cleared joe biden and his son in the past.

cleared the company that hunter biden was working for here in ukraine and was pressuring him to also come up with information that could help president trump in his campaign. so yes, it is astonishing that this not very prominent country in central europe could end up bringing down the president of the united states. >> of course we have to remember that's the law there is within the ukraine. give us more of the back-story of that, especially with the history of corruption and the prosecutors there. what more can you tell us about that? it is a fairly long story, but to put it in a succinct a way as possible this country went through a tremendous political transformation, a revolution in 2014. i was here at the time and the country changed from being a pro-russian puppet state to becoming a pro-european,

pro-american government. and in that time, in this transition period, many corporations here, many government entities, nongovernment entities were trying to change their image and curry favor with the united states and one of these companies, an energy company, decided to put hunter biden on its board as a paid consultant. and there have been no allegations that that was improper. some people raise their eyebrows and thought it was inappropriate for the then-vice president's son to take this paid consulting job. but there have been numerous investigations in this and nobody said there was anything illegal about it. just that it looked unusual and suspicious. and that is what president trump and rudy giuliani have been digging into, despite that there have been numerous investigations saying nothing illegal was done. the president and rudy giuliani want to see if there is fire where there was apparently smoke. and they have been digging and

digging. and then pressuring the ukrainian government to dig even more. >> we appreciate your digging and reporting the story and getting the perspective there in ukraine and how this is developing. nbc chief correspondent richard engel. thank you. how many, the number of republicans who might abandon the president as the impeachment process wears on? some answers, next. one to five? when it comes to feelings, it's more like five million. there's everything from happy to extremely happy. there's also angry. i'm really angry, clive! actually, really angry. thank you. and seat 36b angry. you're clive owen. and you're barefoot. yeah... there's also apprehension... ...regret... ...relief. oh and there's empathy... ah, i got this in zurich! actually, what's the opposite of empathy? but what if your business could understand what your customers are feeling... and then do something about it. you can turn disappointment into gratitude.

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(man) looks like you got out again, huh, banjo. (avo) love is out there. find it in a subaru crosstrek. now to the story number of house members backing some the house members backing impeachment action. 86 members voiced support of the proceedings in the last week. republicans standing by the president for now. former republican senator indicating that firewall is starting to crack in the senate. that is where it matters most. take a listen to this clip. >> all of the attention now is on your former colleagues in the senate because they would be a jury in the impeachment hearing. when you call your friends in d.c., what are they saying about these new allegations?

>> somebody was saying if it was a private vote, there would be 30 votes. that's not true, there would be at least 35. maybe more. that's not possible. so they have to come out. many of them are up for reelection in tough seats. i know that feeling. >> back with me is republican strategist and msnbc analyst. you've got the former senator jeff flake saying the private vote thinks the president deserves impeachment. is that in line with what you are hearing as well? >> like most americans, republicans do not trust this president. they don't like him, they don't trust him. what is important here is the case that comes out by the house be very methodical and shows the american public what happened and where the president is

guilty. if that's the case, they can sway public opinion. they won't be as scared of the president if their numbers are better than his. that's what the republicans are worried about. they are worried about the primaries and the wrath of trump. >> talking about the numbers here you break that down, that means every democrat and the vote to convict him you need 20 republican defections. so talk about that scenario. you've seen their numbers waying. what else needs to happen? it won't be three or four.

it won't be one mitt romney or non. the pressure is already there. that is assuming it gets up for a vote. it doesn't mean mcconnell sets it up that way. for example, susan collins or colorado senator or north carolina senators are up for reelection in tough spots. >> we heard from nancy pelosi that she wants it to be front and center. is it going to be harder for republicans to be front and center just to focus on this and then everything else that the democrats look into will get pushed to the side? >> evidently. if we look at the evidence. we look at the whistleblower's

complaint, it has been confirmed. they can verify the claims made in that statement. it is just -- there has to be a point where republicans say national security is more important than this president. this is a president that has lied to us. we don't trust him. now he's putting himself before country. when that argument is made, that is a hard thing for republicans to stand up to. they are saying it already. they are claiming they haven't read the report. it is seven or nine pages, they are afraid of where this will go. >> for everybody being brought into this. barr and pompeo, rudy giuliani who hasn't been quiet. you worked for him as mayor of new york. what do you take away from his

role in all of this? >> it has been really difficult to see rudy giuliani of 2018, 2019 versus when he came into office in 1994. he turned around the city. this is the rudy giuliani i and many others who worked for him do not recognize. it is difficult to see that. the one thing he is very aware of is that he is not going to be the one put under the bus. he's fighting for himself. i think the other concern there is there is a lot of other people involved that can be subpoenaed. not everyone is going to take a bullet for michael cohen. >> wish we knew what is driving him and putting himself out there. great to hear from you and have your perspective. ahead, how an impeachment effort compared with previous

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thank you for being with me. up next, "up with david gura" from austin, texas. >> i'm david gura broadcasting from austin, texas.

a bunch of journalists and politicians are here. senator michael bennett of colorado and montana steve bennett. new supimas for documents of impeachment come out. new details from the "washington post" about what president trump reportedly said to two high-ranking officials in the office the day after james comey was fired. here in the lone star state, geoff bennett, ashley is an msnbc contributor and with nick

also a