politicians are here. senator michael bennett of colorado and montana steve bennett. new supimas for documents of impeachment come out. new details from the "washington post" about what president trump reportedly said to two high-ranking officials in the office the day after james comey was fired. here in the lone star state, geoff bennett, ashley is an msnbc contributor and with nick also an msnbc contributor.

>> the "washington post" reporting president trump told russian officials in 2017 he was not concerned about moscow's interference in the 2016 election because the united states did the same in other countries. the summary of the meeting was limited to a few officials in attempt to paint the reports to keep the president's comments from being disclosed publicly. the white house's attempts to conceal the call are now central. saying the president abused his power when he asked for investigation into the son of joe biden. the president has been subpoenaed for documents and state officials have been scheduled to start next week. >> did you tell the ukrainian

leader they would have the aid only if they would investigate joe biden and his son? >> no, i didn't. >> if a republican said what joe biden said, they'd get the electric chair now. >> why is rudy rolling the show? is. >> i'm his defense lawyer. i'm defending him. >> announcing that house is moving forward with impeachment inquiry. >> impeachment for that? >> it was beautiful. >> you believe it is okay for the president of the united states to pressure a foreign country into helping him or her win an election? >> is unwarranted, unwelcome and bad for the nation to have outside interference. >> this is a coverup. >> are you willing to testify in front of congress? >> would i like to testify and tell me story?

sure. >> geoff bennett, let me start with you, you've made your way from the capitol. bring us up to date where things stand. they want five state officials to be deposed. where do things stand? >> all of those i talk to use two words talking about this saying it has to be fast and focused. one of the reason they are focusing on this ukraine controversy in part what nancy pelosi said the president already said in the record. trump trying to lean on a foreign leader to dig up dirt on a rival. the democrats feel like they have so much evidence they need. the president's own comment, the whistleblower report, the ig

memo. whereas with the russia investigation, a lot of that stuff is bogged in the courts and efforts to get the tax returns. i think the democrats feel vindicated by the whole time line. >> they want it to be fast and focused. the secretary of state scheduled to go on this trip to europe. there has been so much stone walling preceding this as they try to get information and get people to testify. how does the white house testimony change this week? >> if you look at that mueller report, everything was stone walled. the white house made a decision any request for documents or testimony, they were going to fight it in any way shape or form possible. with this, it was different. after they reported that call existed, they made a pledge, the news came out. they eventually released the

rough transcript of the call. part of that was driven by rare pressure from the government. leader mcconnell spoke to trump and said you have to put something out. you need to release something in order to get ahead of this and get ahead of the rumor. again, we don't know where it is going from here. we have a sense that this was different. this was bad. when you talk to people internally who read the transcript even after the president said it was a perfect and appropriate call. >> nick, you watched before your former colleague testified. i'm sure that was challenging to watch? >> it was. >> what does that say about where we go from here?

what does that tell you about where this goes? >> it is funny, even as he was testifying, the story had moved beyond him. we had the substance of the complaint. as everybody knows, it was an incredib incredibly me timeticulously prepared document. if you were doing your show next saturday, you'll have more to talk about. not just is the depositions but i'm sure the house is talking and reaching out to a whole set of people well beyond those being deposed from the state department. all of that will add to the picture that whistleblower provided.

>> adam schiff makes clear the whistleblower complaint is now the road map. >> but just a starting point. >> a starting point. schiff says now that we are in a formal inquiry, if they continue to stone wall, that then becomes an article of imimpeach, a stone wall of congress. before nancy pelosi embraced this wholesale effort to attempt to remove trump from office. >> when you say maybe you look beyond y beyond ukraine. that photo of them laughing, the photo taken by russian press, american press weren't allowed in the room when that happened. how does that factor into this

conversation? is. >> two things. one thing now coming out as you were saying in rapid real time going forward is that it wasn't just this ukrainian call put in but this secret system used to protect classified information. that raises for democrats other concerns about not was there something wrong but was there a coverup. we know there was a call the president made to vladimir putin, a call to the saudi family around the time of the khashoggi murder happened. there are signs they don't trust the president in those conversations and what he said to the russians which was basically, we don't care if you

medal because everyone does this. on one hand, it is shocking on the other hand, it is not surprising. the president said something very similar when asked about the russian's record of assassinating and trump says, you think we are so perfect. he says those criminal parts out loud. when you say it out loud, people are so used to things being done in secret. he says if it was so bad, why would i have tweeted it. >> i want to get your reaction. when you saw that photo of the three of them. your reaction to this, in a way it is compartment alliesed. >> it is sort of inside baseball to figure out which record was

used to manage handling of certain documents. i worked at the white house totally eight years. this wouldn't have even been contemplated in my experience. it just speaks to corrupt intent and that we've got to hide information. we are talking about putting something into a more classified realm. that says they feel like there is something they don't want to be seen. >> a huge part of this is what this says about the integrity of the election. adam schiff, trying very hard to get him to comment on how he feels about him doing this. he says, i work for the president, i can't 0 comment on those situations. schiff kept saying, if you knew this was going to happen, don't

you have a duty to speak out. describe that tension there in and the complication of that. >> the catakeaway from the hearg was you saw a good man attempting to carry away a buy as situation. he clearly wanted the information to make its way to the congress. he was trying to get it there in a way that was honorable. the point is, he is exactly worried about the set of issues you are talking about. election integrity. that's where they are. maybe we can stop looking backward at that map. >> i want to get to chairman schiff's role. i thought here is a guy taking a bigger role. we saw this let you are

yesterday from nancy pelosi to caucus. help us understand the role he's going to play here. the point committee for impeachment investigation. is he taking a larger role here? is. >> in a word here, yes. adam schiff is close ally to house speaker nancy pelosi. i think she got a little grief that she wasn't going to set up this special committee. she's getting this special committee through the house intelligence committee. we'll also see adam schiff become the public face of this preceding. it is believed he acquitted himself fairly well. it was an oversight hearing. it was process questions. he reserved his time at the end

to get back on track. the lasting take away from last night's news. we are seeing how president trump conflates his personal interest with the country's interest. when he was on the south lawn, i through some questions to him at the time he was attacking the squad. his response was, these four women can't get away with talking about me like this, talking about our country like this. so it was in the same breath. another in the conversation with the ukrainian leader this past summer. same approach. >> thank you. it is early and hot. when this special addition of "up" continues, how impeach men

is taking shape. a look at impeachment's past when we return from usa. >> eliciting interference from a foreign power. if at first you do succeed, try try that again. i am royalty of racing, i am the twisting thundercloud.

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>> the president of the united states has betrayed his oath of

office and sacrificed our national security in doing so is quintessentially what our framers thought might warrant removal from office. >> here in austin, that was the chairman of the house intelligence committee adam schiff nodding to the history of impeachment. the house impeached andrew johnson. more than 100 years later, president nixon faced impeachment himself. >> these will be delivered to the committee tomorrow, in these transcripts portions not relevant to my knowledge of watergate are not included. everything relevant is included. >> he ended up stepping down

from office. >> a few decades later. >> i did not have sexual relations with that woman. >> president clinton was impeached. >> this is something each american should approach as an american upholding their oath of office. president clinton was acquitted by the senate. we are in the inquiry stage. not uncharted but a place we have not been many times before. to our guests now. let me start with you, how useful is this to have seen this done before. i saw this from back in 2017, the last time he went you through this, he was sort of learning on the fly. >> it has happened so rarely.

although there have been other suggestions of impeachment over the year. even john tyler in 1843 was accused of being too forceful. he per veiled by maybe 124 to 83 or something like this. >> the harvard law professor has a letter out discussing the ambiguity of it. help us understand in this moment the complexity and difficulty that presents to lawmakers. >> that is prove to so much of the constitution. you have language some what ambiguous big.

it has been said that impeachment is whatever the house says it is. >> take us back to the timetable. remind us of what it was and how it accelerated. >> one thing '98 tells you is how quickly you can do it. you played newt gingrich there, that was the start of 1998 the house took a vote then to start. the house vote was december 19. the senate trial began early january. acquittal was february 12. it was four months. they took a month off for the midterm elections. showing you, you could do three months. think about the timetable democrats are talking about. they are clearly aware of the political calendar, the factors going on. they are talking about wrapping it up by the end of the year. you look back to 1998 and that

certainly looks doable. >> how is the white house processing this? >> from the white house, the idea of impeachment has been hovering out there since the russia probe and the mueller investigation. the president was long fascinated by what he calls, the i word. he was intrigued by what he viewed as the potential political upsides. he looked at the clinton example and understood that was something that boosted his ratings. he was increased by it but feared it. this may be surprising if you've been following had is comments and tweets. he has almost been daring the democrats to impeach him. the president never actually expected that they would do it. that's what we saw last week.

we have a white house that zrnt quite know what to do. some people who say, look, we dealt with this with mueller and any number of things that are nonideal. we'll weather this well but it's a white house not really prepared or worried. >> this is a president not curious about history or a reader of history. use that as the overarching -- there is the history of impeachment and his attitude towards it generally? >> he has his lawyers looking at the history and the effect on a president. i can imagine they are studying this closely. >> it is interesting to hear he

has had '98 and that model on his mind. pelosi was there in '98. chuck schumer, his career was made on the backlash of that in 1998. i think democrats to this point have been mindful of that. but they are getting to the point that nature of the story has changed. in 1998, bill clinton's approval rating even before this began was 60%. trump has never been clear as president. the option you've seen so far has not been as lopsided as the option to impeachment was. it was 69%. now you'll see 54, 57%. >> a lot of people as they were

weighing whether to support impeachment look back to 1998 and talk about the market consequences as well. pieces this week saying if you look back at how the market reacted, it hasn't been that dramatic. >> presidents will always use argues like this. this is an argument clinton and his people made. it was important to keep the economy going. that was much more important than anybody that has happened. one reason why nixon was so weak was the economy was beginning to go in recession. he was not particularly popular, didn't have a close relationship so he didn't have a cushion. >> thank you so much. political terrain here in texas

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welcome back to "up" from texas. the president was just tweeting. not talking about the know nothings but the do nothings. saying can you imagine if these do nothing democrat savages had more. >> the judge blocking the efforts to hold migrants more than 20 days. the justice department says it is quote, disappointmented with that ruling. last night, the president discussed immigration at a celebration of hispanic heritage month at the white house. >> hispanic-americans have been

a big part of our national story from the very, very beginning of our country. you work hard and raise your beautiful strong families, you care for your neighbors. hispanics know better than anyone, you don't want people coming into our country who are going to do harm to you or that are going to take your jobs. it is very simple. >> this week, administration announced 18,000 people will be allowed to resettle in this country and deny more than 95% of anticipated cases. i.c.e. officers took 1,300 people into custody this week. 84 in new york, 54 in new jersey, 45 in kentucky. and 40 here in texas. geoff bennett is back with me, we are joined by more guests.

victoria, let me start with you. we hear a lot about texas and demographics shifting here in the state. what is the most important issue in texas. gun control, health care, gun control, climate change and immigration is fourth on that list. >> when you are polling latinos, immigration is usually third or fourth. it is education, employment. it is the bigger things all americans care about. there is this disproportionate attention. we have seen the slow chipping away of the asylum process. this is a part of our process allowing folks fleeing persecution to do that and the

trump administration completely dismantling. when obama left office, 110,000 refugees were allowed to resettle. that went down to 30,000. you just mentioned 18,000. this is a problem for our country. this is really a crisis point. not the border crisis, family separation but how we welcome people to our country. >> as you undergo these change as. what are they saying these issues are? >> david, the last poll you cited was a democratic primary poll, that's one of the reasons you see immigration ranking there, if you asked texans, immigration and border security

tops that list because it is a burning hot issue in texas to republicans. one of the most durable poling features. those issues capture the attention of more than 50% of republicans rain or shine in polling. they have intensive negative and restrictive view if we ask texans about whether the u.s. is letting in too many, too few or the right amount of even legal immigrants, more than 60% of republicans say too many. >> the white house that is upset about this flores statement. you see this happening over and over again. they are continuing to fight these things. >> they do in large part because president trump sees more of this. the white house doesn't have

much of an agenda in the election year. i think what we are going to see more of is the president trying to possession himself as this culture warrior making embrace a focus. that delivered him the white house back in 2016. his entire reelection campaign, his central pitch is about reelection and painting that as socialists. until democrats settle on a nominee, he's trying to elevate some of those more leftist democrats in the house suggesting they are all socialists and outside the realm. >> thank you for being here. it is hot. >> we are used to it. >> it is texas. >> thank you to my guests here. the impeachment inquiry, we have more coming up from here in

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astrazeneca may be able to help. >> at the texas tribune festival in austin. many candidates had called for impeachment over the last month. >> but really at the end of the

day, this becomes bigger than this national election. this becomes about the accountability of a president and abuse of power along the way. election be darned, if you will that we have to make sure to take these actions just because the potential in his conduct of the norms of this democracy are severely undersiege right now. >> governor steve bullock here, we are pleased to have him with us on set. g geoff bennett and ashley parker with us as well. >> you wanted democrats to take their time to figure this out. what changed for you? >> i still don't want the next year and a half just all about donald trump for sure. politically, i don't know if this is good but for the sake of

our nation, this has to be done. not just as a candidate but as a former attorney general, the notion that he'd withhold foreign aid, the notion that he'd ask a president, hey, do me a favor. did he direct that president of the ukraine to work with his personal lawyer and attorney general and then the coverup. when this came out, he made all kinds of excuses. at this point, we don't have a choice but to move forward. it really is one of these where the constitutional democracy is at stake. >> a lot of your strategies maybe listening or giving voice, you said in the past, you'll talk to 30 people, no one is going to bring this up. has that changed. you were in arlington, texas at

a uaw line meeting. people are still worried about am i going to lose my job or health care system? when is washington, d.c. going to start addressing this income inequality. also, we have to recognize a whole lot of folks in this country are going to think this is all just a set up against trump. there will be even greater division. one of the greatest threats we face is the division within. i've always tried to heel that in montana. we have to do this in a way that is jude irgs but bringing people together. >> you've been so good talking about the divides giving voice to democrats maybe folks that might vote democrat. does this break down

geographically for you? do you think there are parts of the country that are more opposed than others? >> i would imagine washington, d.c. or new york city, yes. in the bluest of blue states, maybe yes. i think that is one of the things. this election is really about making sure it is not just the coast but all across the country. if we are not connected with folks, we are not going to win this election. >> geoff bennett, get in here with this. >> how do you think house democrats should go forward with this as opposed to at the ballot box? >> let's not grandstand. let's get information and take

action assuming action is warranted. but don't make it the spectacle. just do your job. >> how hard is that to do? press releases are just the thing. >> in a world of 24-hour news coverage, this will consume everyone. i think it will be difficult. i think we do have to demonstrate. look, i don't take pleasure. i take zero pleasure now saying, i think we have to move forward with impeachment inquiry. if we take that approach of just a professional of we have to go in and get the job done. i think the country will be on a better position on the back of this. >> so many talking about moving ahead in moral terms.

politically, i am curious how do you think this plays out in an election year and how do democrats make sure this is what somebody thinks helped bill clinton in '98? >> sure. all of the attention in d.c. will want to be on attention. most folks out there are not focused on d.c. all they see is that d.c. isn't necessarily working. you are still talking about things like, this guy is trying to talk about taking away preexisting conditions for everybody in the country. he's trying to back workers and give more to millionaires or billionaires. >> can you have that discussion while you are going through an impeachment inquiry? >> that's curious. i've mentioned this before. i've done maybe 60 meet and

greets in iowa. not only one time did people bring up these issues. almost 20% of rural hospitals are at risk of closing right now. at least from my perspective, i'll come on and talk to david any day. when i'm talking to voters, we can talk about how to make the economy work for you and have a fair shot at better life. >> talking about the debate, you haven't qualified for. i talked to another candidate marian who said the debate isn't that important. how important are these debates? what do you say to those who say, you haven't qualified? >> look, i think the dnc's intentions were well but we've

become much less exclusive when you look at the rnce. we are still four months away. less than a quarter of those in iowa watch these debates. we are seeing a squaubl trying to one up each other. go to my website to hear more. >> shameless plug there. >> my thanks to ashley parker, geoff bennett who joined us. up next, more from ukraine with the first tv interview with the former prosecutor named in the report. what he is saying about rudy giuliani. next. so i can buy from

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♪ welcome back to "up" with the texas attribute abu festival. the former ukraine prosecutor is speaking out. rich ar engle found yuri

lutsenko in kiev. here is part of richard exclusive interview. >> reporter: did you find any corruption by then or a bias of power or corruption. >> i can declare that i don't know any possible violation of ukrainian law -- once again ukrainian law, by biden and biden junior. >> richard engel joins us. help us understand the role of this prosecutor. help us understand what each did in this investigation as we look at the recent history. >> reporter: okay. so there have been five prosecutors over the last several years here in ukraine. the controversy is really

surrounding the one you mentioned, victor shokin. the reason there's a controversy around victor shokin. when joe biden was vice president, victor was not a popular prosecutor here. biden and several officials in this country were pushing for victor shokin to be removed in order to increase anti-corruption efforts in ukraine. biden gave a speech in which he described how he pressured the ukrainian government to remove victor shokin. he was in fact removed. the reason this is problematic. at the time when he was removed. at the time when vice president biden was pushing to remove victor shokin was a paid consultant for ukrainian oil

company. now rudy giuliani and the trump or to protect the activities of his son hunter biden. now, there are no indications that that happened. in fact many people were pushing for him to be removed. there were subsequent investigations into this. they did not see an attempt by the vice president to product hunter biden. in fact, the new prosecutor that came in, he's the one i interviewed, reviewed the case and found no evidence of wrongdoing, cleared the company, cleared the bidens, and move on. this is the story that president trump and rudy giuliani are trying to revive. rudy giuliani has been going around the world speaking with ukrainian officials to try to reopen this investigation, to see if they can find information

that would be damning to then vice president biden to say he abused his position, or to discredit his son hunter biden. as you heard in that clip, they did not find that information. the biden campaign has said these attempts by president trump and rudy giuliani have been roundly discredited was the language they used. richard, very quickly cud yuri lutsenko about the focus on rudy giuliani, the freelance diplomat, the work he was doing around the giuliani's freelance it was also president trump effectively threatening the ukrainian president. the president had just withheld nearly $400 million in military

aid this country desperately needs. with that threat hanging over him, the president was telling the ukrainian president that he wants more cooperation on this matter, more cooperation with rudy giuliani. the problem the former prosecutor told me he met in person with giuliani twice, and spoke to him around ten times. >> richard engel, joining us from kyiv, we appreciate it. in the next hours, what house democrats are demanding from mike pompeo. we'll have much more on the impeachment inquiry in our next hour, as "up" continues live in austin. " continues live in austin banjo? (man) hey. go home. (woman) banjo! sorry, it won't happen again.

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♪ this is "up with david gura." a big gathering of politicians, past and present, journalists and authors. why am i here? because a number of democratic candidates are here. one of these is michael bennet. brand-news reporting from "the

washington post" on what was remaining an infamous meeting in the oval office between president trump and two senior russian officials, that meeting taking place just a day after james comey was fired. the post reporting today the president was unconcerned about moscow's interference in the 2016 election, because the united states did the same in other countries, which alarmed officials to limit access to the remarks to an unusually small number of people. those new details coming as how democrats moved swiftly in the impeachment inquiry. a whistle-blowers describing efforts to get dirt on joe biden. senior of state mike pompeo, the depositions of five other state department officials have been scheduled starting next week. among them kurt volcker who

abruptly resigned. trump lashing out, calling democrats do-nothing savages of over the summer the president was asked about whether he would accept dirt on other opponents. here's what he told george stephanopoulos. >> if something called, norway, i have information on yew opponent, i think i would hear it. >> you would want interference in an election? >> it's not interference. it's information. joyce vance is now an msnbc legal analyst. jake, let me start with you. two letters, one from the house speaker, one from the chairman of the house intelligence committee describing steps forward here. yes, they're on recess, in their district work periods, but the work continues, they say. >> that's true. all the committees will be

working over this two-week recess. the challenge will be for democrats to keep the drumbeat going, i think. i think that's a big political challenge. the intelligence committee will be doing interviews. the house will try to weaponize the administration's unwillingness to cooperate with these investigations. they basically said if you don't come to the hill mike pompeo, we are going to basically say you're impeding this investigation and we'll hold it against you legislatively and legally. that's what's interesting to me and what we're watching, at the top of playbook, we had an interesting argument, which is basically don't over-complicate that. the president has admitted to what democrats think are impeachable offenses in public. he says he's done things that they think are impeachable.

>> joyce, did you see this week when you heard chairman schiff going back and forth with joe maguire, did it change the way the democrats are approaches this? >> i think democrats do have a new approach. part of it is the notion that this is formally impeachment proceedings. as a prosecutor i had the "kiss rule" which means keep it simple stupid. those allegations were incredibly complicated for lay people to follow. they have a simple narrative, a ump who sought favors inappropriately, and apparently we have a massive cover-up, in an effort to seal not just the ukrainian incidents, but others. democrats need to keep if simp, and keep moving forward. >> kiss and tell, if you would,

does it topically have to focus on the ukraine alone? in the interest of simplicity? >> this is an important decision point for democrats. the laundry list of all of trump's impeachable apps is a long laundry list, right? it will be pour for democrats to pick narrow categories this narrative of obstructing congress might be one to include. hopefully they'll pick clear narratives. i suspect that ukraine alone will be the focus of adam schiff and the house intelligence committee's work. that may move forward lead of everything else. there's no reason you can't bring articles of impeachment, get going and subsequently and them. >> talking about points of weakness in the tone wall that the white house has built, where is thor points of weakness? haven't we seen that yet before

over the last many months? how is this time going to be different? >> to both their points, they have to narrow in on this message and show what's important and interesting is when democrats retook the house, they focus on a suite of legislation that's focused on fighting corruption. if they go back home to their districts and talk about how it's coming from president trump and the white house he has created, and this is just the latest iteration, that's one way to try to narrow that message rather than saying the president is impeding our investigations against. we know that sort of these opinions from voters and people around the country are baked in already to an extent. some people will think the president is doing nothing wrong and democrats, as he says, earp going after him for any number of things. democrats who support the house democrats, will think that he is impeding this investigation. so i think it's about narrowing and going back to fighting that

corruption rather than saying something about ukraine or broad strokes about what he's doing. >> when they go back to their district for these two weeks, yes, they haven't attended to some impeachment investigation, but what will the two weeks look like for lawmakers? >> every democrat is going to go back to their district and do a -- put forth a message that works in their district, right? here in austin when lloyd doggett is facing a -- he'll be able to say i want to throw the president out of office. in the suburbs of philadelphia, where democrats win by a couple thousand votes, they're going -- i'm just using that as an example, but we're investigating in president, we'll see where it takes us, and we'll make a

decision based on the facts. it depends on where you are in america. i will say a lot of people have made this point, and we have made this point on politico -- if democrats go too quickly, it's a political disaster for them. you can see them already doing this, already talking about the need to proceed with speed. well, no, actually if you don't hold hearings, every republican in america is going to run ads saying they tried to undo an election without hears. that is not a good strategy. i think democrats realize that and will see if they can pump the brakes with some speed, but also with caution. >> joyce anecdotally i looked up in my delta flight, and during that hear, a lot of people were watching it with joe maguire. this seemed to be easier to follow because of the simplicity you're describing. what should democrats take away

from that hearing? >> this was maybe the midway point from earlier hearings that were a disaster, and this new motion forward. i thought the hearing got off a bit on process. it was a fascinating conversation for lawyers about executive privilege. i was surprised that democrats didn't start with the substance. what did the president do? what does the memo say? what is going on here? there is an interesting underlying narrative here if democrats choose to pursue it. in the mueller report, one of the most frustrating portions is mueller saying these are our conclusion, but they might have had been different if we had access to information. they specifically talked about people hiding information. now democrats have stumbled upon the motherlo lode of informatio. if outside of information that could possibly be more public, anything that impacts on that

central russian investigation, then the democrats might be in the position to hold very riveting hearings, but it's a fuzzy process. there's no longer a special counsel, there's no fbi agents working with the senate on impeachment, so they'll have to craft a very careful and unusual path. >> joyce, what did you think when you pulled up "the washington post" and saw that picture again, if you think of a ven digamagradiagram, this is a where there are several narratives at play here. >> yeah. >> part of that was departmentalized in a certain way. >> i'm a career law enforcement person. i spent more than 25 years at the justice department. one of the rules we lived by is there is no such thing as coincidence. it's awfully coincidental that russia keeps popping up.

maybe this investigation is folding back on itself. but the coincidence here of that meeting in the oval officed, for instance, the events at the republican convention, where they changed the platform of the republican party to take a different stance towards aid to ukraine, these are coincidences that have to be considered in light of what we're learning. let's talk about how this affects the competition for the nomination. joe biden was speaking last night in nevada. he used a line that he's begun to use over and over again. that is, he's trying to hijack this election. just give us your perspective how he and other democrats are using this investigation to reshape their message. >> we've seen an interesting split among some of the 2020 democrats. senator harris was asked about this scandal or controversy with joe biden, and she sort of said, you know, we'll let the voters

decide if that's too much baggage. bernie sanders said something similar, and then you look at julian castro, and he doesn't give into the -- and that will be interesting to follow. do they try to go after biden no this family controversy that president trump is using to his advantage? it's just like hillary's e-mails. it's hillary clinton's e-mails 2.0. trump made a molehill into a mountain. it doesn't much housts controversy you are perceived to have in the past, the gop and president trump will try to turn that into a characterization of yourself to define you. democrats can rally around or they'll use it to try to take down biden and change their own

fortunes. last lastly to you, it took several months for joe biden to deliver a speech on race and his personal history on race. there's an article in the "new yorker." saying there's no there there. is that enough, or does he need to deliver a speech, claim this as something that is a falsehood, in effect own it and move on? is that the lesson? >> the biden campaign is obviously extraordinarily sensitive to this incident. i will say, we'll see what message trump uses, but i think people might want -- i don't know, but my sense is i would like to know what work hunter biden was doing for this oil company for which he was big paid $50,000. nothing illegal about making money, and making money overseas, we don't think. nothing illegal about that, but it's not illegitimate to want answers. we'll leave it there.

thank you both for joining us. joyce will come back later in the show. still ahead, much more here from texas. the ethical alarm bells ringing following the unpresence dented whistle-blower complaint, but how the inquiry is affecting the race, whether michael bennet joins us live here in austin from the texas tribune fest. so i can buy from enterprise car sales and you'll take any trade-in? that's right! great! here you go... well, it does need to be a vehicle. but - i need this out of my house.

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we're in austin, tex texas, and as congressman adam schiff and fellow democrats move forward, a new nbc news report says the senate intelligence committee is also looking into the complaint. the commit year heard from the inspector general and the director of national gel gens, in that job as an acts capacity. richard burr of north carolina says interviews will continue as part of an inquiry, not an investigation. >> the committee is committed to make sure we get to the bottom of what questions need answers. joining us is michael bennet. he also sits on the senate intelligence committee. let's start with the nuance. help us understand how the committee views the complaint. >> we are at the most preliminary phases of this.

i have every confidence we will run down what needs to be run down, but i think the chairman is saying basically this is just the very beginning. i can't really comment on the work of the committee beyond that. >> you are in the jury pool basically waiting ton impaneled. talk about this work. >> we're at a historic moment in this country's history. i think this president has run roughshod over the constitution basically since before he was in office. i think at a certain point enough is enough, nancy pelosi had no choice. what we have to do now is honor the constitution by following a process that upholds the rule of law and gives the american people confidence that what we're doing is something that is consistent with the rule of law. i am confident that that's what will happen, and some of the earlier reports about what the president is doing in the oval office are deeply disturbing. without talking about the work of the committee, there has

been a lot of reporting on the discord. handle of collegiality, and from the clip we saw played there, had has been too a great extent of -- >> it's a place where the doors are closed a lot of the time and people aren't preening in front of the cameras. i think it gives people an opportunity to work together. it's not to say we do that perfectly, but if ever the country needed that, it's now. i am confident in the members of that committee that try to do that. in the end we may not success, but i think we will start that way. >> last question on this point. there were members of the house who were outraged at joe maguire having to testify publicly. they suggested it should have been something that happened behind closed doors, as it did

with your committee. help us understand that tension, air something so the public knows what's going on -- >> in a case like this, you have to balance it. actually i don't think it's a bad thing that the house and senate might strike that balance differently, but in the end what you want to do is have the secrecy that's required to protect the whistle-blower, for example, which is incredibly important, but at the same time build public confidence in the process. remember, you know, what went on during watergate, it was one of the critical components of that was making sure the public understood what the testimony was and the evidence that was being developed by the committee looked like. we're going to have to do that here, too. anybody in washington who makes the assumption that the american people have their mind made up here hasn't spent any time in the heartland of this country. that's a place where people are

working hard to mover their families ahead, build their businesses, and, you know, they're sick of the dysfunction in washington. there are some people who will see this as more washington dysfunction. that's why i think it's incumbent on those of us who have responsibility here, to make sure we do it in a way that's faithful to the rule of law and brings the american people along with us. >> you have spent time in the heartland. you have been campaigning, and i wonder about the -- our governor steve bullock saying he could talk to 30 people and none of them would bring up impeachment. >> that was true up to this point. i haven't been to iowa since the latest allegations about ukraine were made, and since the investigations were launched. up until then, you're correct. what i'm hearing is people are saying we're working as hard as we can possibly work. we can't afford housing, health care, higher education or early

childhood education. if our kids are in poverty we're working hard and can't get our kids out of poifrt. that's what people are talking about. that's not a reason not to pursue this. the latest allegations this morning about the president, you know, telling the russians that he didn't care whether they hacked into our democracy in 2016, i mean, that would be completely unbelievable except it's entirely consistent with everything he's said before and since. so i think the time has come for us to really figure it out. you see the impulse for outrage in this moment. you have billed yourself -- regarded yourself as a pragmatist, someone who would like to return to, quote/unquote, normalcy. how do you think about that? suv -- >> people have called me -- a journalist wrote about me say

pragmatic idealist. >> i want to get stuff down. when is the last time we passed a real infrastructure bill in this country? when is the last time we did the basic blocking and tackling that we're expecting us to do, but on the other hand an idealist. i have believe in the exercise of self-government. the world needs the longest democracy to survive. the checks and balances we're seeing kick into place after the president has been doing what he's doing are critically important. my argument is that, as i said, we have to follow through in a way that's consistent with the constitution and the rule of law. that will be a victory for the rule of law and a victory for democracy, no matter how it turns out. we have to get back to that sense of -- an article of faith how important this democracy is, and our stewardship of it for the next generation and the generation after that.

you haven't qualified for the debate in october -- >> thanks for mentioning it. you can't go without mentioning it. >> are those pivotal points for you? >> you know, i don't think so. the first time i got thrown off the debate stage, i felt terrible about it. it turned out it didn't have any effect on the way people are thinking about the race, because it's so early. this is like deciding who should be in the playoffs based on preseason football. forbes if iowa and new hampshire literally this week are beginning to start the process of figuring out what they want to do. so we've got a long way to go. >> senator, thank you very much. michael bennet joining us here on the set. wendy davis will join us next on "up." ll join us next on "up.

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crossings, there's new regulations to allow the detention of migrant children's. democrats have hailed the ruling as a victory for immigrant rights. many of those detention centers are right here in texas, where the president's crackdown is expect to do fuel an historic turnout in the next election, latinos are on pace to become the largest non-white voting bloc with more than 32 million eligible voters. wendy davis joins miss, and john burn you and abby livingston. john, help us understand the import of this. there's a sense that the administration is throwing spaghetti at the wall with legal maneuvers. this is another case where the noodle didn't stick? >> well, it didn't. critics of the president's immigration policies are

heartened by this that they're not able to detain children along with their families if these big detention centers in south texas, but david, it's kind of a moot point. there's been a sea change in the arrival of migrants in the last few months. the acting director called it a game changer. the united states has outsourced the immigration enforcement to mexico. it has exported the humanitarian crisis. so the numbers have just decreased dramatically in terms of the asylum seekers primary comeses from america, asking for protection here. they're in mexican border cities which are rife with crime and extortion, and many are choosing to go back home. yes, this ruling by judge guy in california does protect children from being held more than 20 days in detention centers, but the larger story is all the migrants that are bottlenecked in mexico.

>> help us understand how that story is playing out. talk about the demographic changes, how front of mind is that for the electoral there. >> people want to know we have secure borders, no question about that, but beyond the policy conversations that are going on from the trump administration and the way the courts have been reacting to it is our underlying value as americans. and honestly as texans, who have always embraced the immigrant community that has made us as strong as we are, and the underlying value of understanding that when people are in need, you know, that post-war world war ii decision we made, that we were going to provide asylum for people literally any of in danger or threat of their lives, the people making this journey are because of that. we understand that. i feel like particularly with women voters, this issue will

continue to play an important part of how they respond in the next election. >> why do you think this is you the compose duties. why is this a moment for you? it's a moment for democrats across the country. so many people feel the voices are not being heard and that the conversations beinghood there have nothing to do with their lives. i've been doing listening sessions all over this district. it's a direct on the tipping point of turning blue. what every wants to talk about, no matter how red or how blue i'm in in the different areas, it's health care, it is climate change, and it's gun safety. so many of these are visceral, especially for the mama bears and grandma bears. i think their response to the failures of the republican administration on these issues is going to really help us in the 2020 cycle. >> you look at the district,

what does it tell you about districts elsewhere in the state or about this moment, the politics of this moment? >> that's ancestral district. i'm down here, and the excitement here is about the u.s. house races and the state house of representatives, because the state house of representatives could be in play and that could impact redistricting in 2021. so it's sort of a dichotomy where the energy here is actually looking down ballot, but although all of these race is will be vulnerable to the presidential contest. thank you all for being here. wendy davis, abby livingston and john bennett here. we'll be back with more live from austin tribune festival.

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or if you plan to or have recently received a vaccine. this could be your chance to leave your psoriasis symptoms behind. ask your doctor for ilumya today, for a clearer tomorrow. welcome back. president trump's now infamous call is at the center of the push for impeachment, but the question is whether he crossed

the line? the justice department's review of that call did not find a thing of value that could be considered a campaign finance lawsuit decision, fec chairman drafted a new recent lace saying in farther whether the value or service may be nominal or different to ascertains, such contributions are nevertheless banned. with me for the first time together, the band is together. harry litman, joyce vance, and ben wittis. you really have never before in real life? >> harry, let mess start with you, nancy pelosi saying the attorney general has gone rogue. we haven't talk much about his role, talked about mike pompeo being subpoenaed.

how much interest do you have? how much do you expect democrats will focus on that. >> i think they'll be focused a fair bit, but it's a bit murky. it appears if the complaint went over, it went to him that in fact the cia first forwarded it to him, so you can see he was there. that would have i think sounded alarm bells in most attorneys general to think -- he's a witness here unavoidably. he may not have taken action, but he's still involved. so i think the real question will be going forward, will he field emboldened to resist the calls to recuse, or will he say, here we've gone a different line here, i have to step back. >> i'll let you had pit another description, but he's not operating the way past attorneys general would. even as a witness to that, it's

strange in different circumstances. >> he's not. it's important to remember this is an attorney general who auditioned for the job by writing a 19-page memo in which he essential said, yeah, the president can never be responsible for obstruction and probably for anything else. then he circulated it. that was bill barr's baseline for conduct. it's really only gotten worse from there. i think we have to be careful to learn the facts before we make judgments. i'm never in favor of judging somebody without the facts. based on what we know, the way doj inserted itself, made a decision we're told from the reporting to not even open a matter. in doj, if you give something more than a cursory inspection, you open the matter, look at it and most importantly you document it. this didn't happen before bill barr's doj gave this a pass.

>> we learned more during the testimony that the process for testing the privilege, your reaction how out of the norm than, adam schiff and others say it happened too quickly. was that out of the way or should have been -- >> i don't want to fault maguire for his conduct. i think he was in an absolutely impossible situation. i do think the conduct of the executive branch as a whole and the justice department has a lot to answer for here, in taking a look at this situation and saying the paramount goal -- anything other than was to get the relevant information to congress as it should be, and investigate the allegations and protect the whistle-blower. instead of executive branch took the view, the goal is to prevent the information from getting to congress and to sort of

maximize -- sort of lock down the information to the maximum extent it can. i think that's fundamentally a justice department problem, not an i.c. problem. i think it caused the president to have a few weeks in which he kind of got to -- you know, not answer for the fly on my face. by the way, i've never had to speak with the attorney general with a fly right on my face. >> we turn to campaign finance and the issues therein. help us understand the nuance of a thing of value. it's not such a nuance. look, ben's exactly right, as is joyce, and they took a pass. i still believe the doj is corrupt root and branch, but it's bizarre.

first, they didn't look at other potentially crimes. that's their lookout, not the bureau's, the very things that were at issue in mueller report 1 in conspiracy of obstruction. then on the thing of value, which is the linchpin of a campaign violence violation. excuse med. it's just a common-sense point that of course it's valuable to have dirt on an opponent and an opponent's son. why else would he be doing all these things? i would say there's a precedent that the doj now has to deal with, and it's bob mueller's kind of very equivocal over-conservative view about thing of value. mueller said it's hard to evaluate it, but there's a big difference between saying it's hard to put a price tag on it and it's not a thing of value. this is patently a thing of value and weintraub is just right. great to see all of you.

the great thing is how the festival brings you all together. you have a rho butt conversation onloon and on podcast. thank you. tune in tomorrow, we'll be back in new york, that is tomorrow right here on "up" on msnbc beginning at 8:00. up next the national security concerns off president trump with his confers with his ukrainian counterpart. and with us is jeh johnson. had he'll join me in just a moment. jeh johnson had he'll join me in just a moment it's going ok? great. now i'm spending more time with the kids. i'm introducing them to crab. crab!? they love it. so, you mentioned that that money we set aside. yeah. the kids and i want to build our own crab shack. ♪ ♪ ahhh, you're finally building that outdoor kitchen. yup - with room for the whole gang. ♪ ♪ see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you.

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beyond a shadow of a doubt, we now know the president needs to be impeached, and i'm grateful that nancy pelosi has decided to move forward, that it looks like the majority of some of her hobbes and some of the republicans are considering this as well. in other words, they'll place the future of this country before their political future, before their prospects in the next election. that's the way, if we're going to make it, this country has to work. i'm cautiously optimistic about the path we are on now.

that conversation happened just a few blocks away from where i'm sitting. discussing impeachment on the stage. meanwhile, president trump is pushing back against accusations of closed door event in new york. the president was caught on camera at that event declaring war on democrats and suggesting the whistleblower's sources committed treason. take a listen to what the president had to say. >> we are in a war. these people are sick. they're sick. and nobody is -- i want to know who is the person that gave the whistle-blower -- who is the person that gave the whistle-blower the information because that's close to a spy. do you know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart, right, with spies and treasonous, right? we used to handle it a little differently than we do now. >> a wholly different speech than many people in that audience expected. with me now is jeh johnson in

austin. we haven't spoken today about what all of this means about the sanctity of whistle-blower complaints and how what's happened here changes that. when you hear the president of the united states talk about what used to be done in the old days to traitors, how do we move on to here about the sanctity of the whistle-blower's complaints. >> david, thanks for having me here in austin. in a free and open society, in a democracy, whistle-blower protections are fundamental. they're fundamental to checks and balances, separation of powers. as painful and as disconcerting as it can be, if you are in the executive branch and you have a whistle-blower, it's fundamental that in a situation where a seasoned federal official feels that he or she has no place to go, but the other branch of

government, that there be legal protections in place for that kind of person. i've dealt with the whistle-blower law and there are times when it's unpleasant, it's a set back, just like having an inspector general, you know, an independent inspector general in your department, but in the end it is a healthy component of a democratic form of government. the president's remarks are, frankly, not helpful. i've been saying now for some time that leaders, those who command a microphone, those who aspire to be our leaders have a responsibility to engage in civil dialogue, lower the temperature in some of the political rhetoric we're seeing right now because words have consequences. people do listen to their leaders and so i don't -- i don't believe the comments were helpful. >> can we have a conversation about what we learned over these

couple weeks, what we learned in the "washington post" about this meeting that the president took in the oval office. what the post is reporting this morning is that president trump said casually he doesn't think that there was election interference in 2016 and fundamentally it doesn't matter because it's something that we the united states has done in the past. >> yes. >> your reaction to that, again, as this is the marquis thing that is driving all of this. >> david, when it comes to cybersecurity there can be no complete line of defense and when it comes to bad cyber behavior by nation states we have to put in place sufficient deterrents to make the behavior cost prohibitive. nation states whether communist regim regimes, dictatorships, monarchies all tend to focus in a basic way in that they will respond to sufficient deterrents if you make the behavior cross-prohibitive. that comment, if true, goes in

the other direction and it signals to the russian government, hey, if you do this again it won't be a big deal for me, the president, which undermines, by the way, his own administration. his own administration's effort at imposing additional sanctions on the russian government for their behavior in 2016. >> you held an agency that needed the free flow of information, yes, within the pool of people who should have it, but people needed access to it. as you read what was alleged in that whistle-blower complaint about how a readout of a phone call was compartmentalized and in a place where it shouldn't have been. how do you react to that? for whatever reason that was done and is being investigated. how do you react to the way that has played out? >> you can spin that a number of ways. one way it could be spun and might well be done is somebody realized that the document contained something very controversial, they were worried it was going to leak and so they placed it in a file that had --

where fewer people would have access to it. so that's, you know, without it being motivated by some sort of political cover. that's one interpretation of events. >> yeah. >> but it is also the case that it's fundamental to classifications law when you classify something or when you withhold something from foia, requests under the freedom of information act, that it not be done so to avoid political embarrassment. that's set forth in the law. >> let me ask you about what's happened your week and your reaction to it. you are somebody who spent a lot of time in washington at the defense department, the department of homeland security, you know the way the city works. what the house speaker did was a grave and important step that she took. your reaction to it. do you think fundamentally it's a good thing that she has authorized or begun this formal impeachment inquiry. >> david, my reaction is this, i think the house democrats had no

choice and especially since the mueller report the president has basically thumbed his nose at congress by refusing to accept their subpoenas, refusing to accept congressional oversight, this expansive assertion of executive privilege and this latest revelation comes on the heels of that to the point where they had no choice. they felt like they had no choice. i think it's important for the american public to remember however this turns out in the senate, and it requires a two-thirds vote to convict, there is an election in 13 months and that is the opportunity for change. >> very nice to see you. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> jeh johnson joining me on stage with representative mccall here. reminder that today at 4:00 eastern on msnbc it's the global citizen festival from central park, live performances from queen, pharrell williams and alishia case. that's coming up on msnbc. at the top of the next hour joy reid aunt one of the house

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that does it for me. thank you very much for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. ♪ good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." well, we have a ton of breaking news to get to this morning in the wake of a rapidly exploding week-long chain of events that could break the trump presidency. and we start