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good to be with you this morning, i'm frances rivera in new york at msnbc world headquarters. it is 7:00 in the east, 4:00 out west and here is what's happening. the president and the impeachment fight. new takes on what's at stake, plus where public opinion is leaning right now. >> when the president obstructs and the white house stone walls, it's going to be very difficult to meet these timelines. >> the democrats really need to get this right. >> our democracy is in grave danger. >> it's never happened in american history. no president has ever been removed from office. overseas new clashes in hong kong ahead why the next few days are key to the cause. and britain's boris johnson under fire. we will tell you why. developing this morning,

sunrise in washington where the battle lines are being drawn as house democrats impeachment inquiry ramps up. house speaker nancy pelosi telling democrats in texas last night that holding the president accountable is more important than politics. >> people say you have to take a political risk doing that. that doesn't matter. that doesn't matter. because we cannot have a president of the united states undermining his oath of office, his loyalty, his -- to his oath of office, undermining our national security and undermining the integrity of our election. >> pelosi's latest comments come as a new poll shows public opinion turning favorably towards impeachment. an npr marist survey finds 49% approval among adults for impeachment. meanwhile, the white house doubling down on its defense saying there is nothing there when it comes to the president's call with ukraine. >> this is just another in a

long line of ridiculous behavior by the democrats. >> yeah. >> the president has done nothing wrong. >> well, clearly. >> they pushed a lie about russia on the american people for three years without evidence and they are doing it all over again, whether it's collusion, kavanaugh or now a cover up, they've got no evidence. >> and president trump making his own direct pitch to voters as he points the finger at democrats. >> what's going on now is the single greatest scam in the history of american politics. the democrats want to take away your guns, they want to take away your health care, they want to take away your vote, they want to take away your freedom, they want to take away your judges. they want to take away everything. they're trying to stop me because i'm fighting for you and i will never let that happen. >> and another investigation making headlines, the "washington post" reports the trump administration is investigating emails of dozens of current and former senior state department officials who sent messages to then secretary

of state hillary clinton's private email. current and former officials telling the paper as many as 130 officials have been contacted in recent weeks by state department investigators. nbc's hans nichols is at the white house with more. hands, we will talk about that in a moment, but first the white house appears to be out with a defense strategy now when it comes to impeachment? er they seem to be going on offense. part of their defense is going on offense and the president is trying to directly appeal to his base. he is not making an argument to the general public. it's clear they're trying to appeal to their base. you saw laura trump the president's daughter-in-law put out this tweet that had a map of all the counties that were red that went for trump and said try to impeach this. they also have this other line of attack and that is question the whistle-blower. here is what hogan gidley had to say. >> has clearly not been given the appropriate amount of

scrutiny. this person wasn't on the call, this person was using second-hand information and the third hand accounts were from media hit pieces from "the new york times," the "washington post" and cnn. >> how are his spirits? how is he doing? >> he's doing very well. lin, what the democrats aren't talking about are guns, infrastructure, health care, borders. they are not doing anything that they were elected to do, which is work for the american people. >> and it's going to work for donald trump. >> -- and does his job. >> now, the president was apparently in good spirits yesterday, he played golf with senator lindsey graham and some others as well. lindsey graham said the president with as a gracious host and that his spirits appeared high, but they did apparently talk about impeachment on the golf course from from the golf course lindsey graham's twitter account said in america you can't get a parking ticket based on hearsay testimony but you can impeach a

president. i certainly hope not. we will see to what extent the white house keeps up this line of defense on the sunday talk shows today but the line so far is appeal to the base and attack the whistle-blower. >> this when we are going on with that other investigation now with the state department officials sending emails to hillary clinton's private email. talk about that and what the white house is saying. >> reporter: so the white house hasn't weighed in on this. according to the "washington post" this email investigation is taking place on career civil servants on who sent e ma ills to then secretary of state hillary clinton's private email server. it's over 100 individuals, career state department officials, who sent emails. now, they did say this investigation started at the tail end of the obama administration. it's unclear whether or not this was directed by the white house. the reporting seems to suggest that this is a state department-led effort. it does appear according to the reporting that this picked up last august. so we're going to have to do

some more reporting here and figure out what motivated this, has it been accelerated this investigation and who ultimately ordered it. >> many questions when it comes to that investigation especially when it comes to the timing. hans nichols, thank you. joining me now allen smith political reporter for nbc news and julia manchester reporter for the hill. good morning. >> good morning. >> i want to start with you and that "washington post" story we were just talking about with hands. hillary clinton isn't even running for president so what does the trump administration gain by reviving this, especially now and especially when we are looking into the motivation for it all. >> first of all, it mirror during the 2016 election how the day that the "access hollywood" tape came out we also received the wikileaks regarding some of the clinton emails. i don't think it's coincidental as soon as the ukraine story is taking off we are first hearing about this new investigation into people who sent emails to hillary clinton, state department officials. it's not entirely clear based

upon the reporting so far really whether -- or what has driven this new probe, but we do know that president trump is interested in getting any kind of information to try to discredit the democrats as a party ahead of the 2020 election and so further probing of hillary clinton keeps a story line going about democrats and scandals and this is something that it's clear from the president with the president of ukraine president trump is trying to keep going into the 2020 election cycle. >> here we are talking about the e-mails once again. let's talk about impeachment which would have been the headlines if that report didn't come out from the "washington post." you write that the fight poses risks to both trump and democrats. talk about the most obvious risks here on both sides. >> yeah, so the impeachment fight obviously to trump is that he is embroiled in yet another scandal, another controversy that further, i think, takes away attention from other initiatives he's trying to push through ahead of 2020, whether

that's, you know, a growing economy or pointing more conservative judges on courts across the country. for democrats they face a risk in that if the majority of american people -- and we know that opinion polls are shifting, but if the american people at the state and local level are saying they don't have the appetite for impeachment, that could pose a risk to democrats as well ahead of 2020, however, i think nancy pelosi was given cover by the fact that so much moderate freshmen democrats from districts that probably went for trump in 2016 but flipped in 2018 came out very much in favor of impeachment. lawmakers like allison spanberger in virginia, those are the types of lawmakers that i think gave nancy pelosi quite a bit of cover. even at the presidential level. you saw montana governor steve bullock who won reelection in 2016 as president trump carried that state. you're seeing a lot of democrats from these red states really start to come out in favor and you're also seeing public

opinion polling shift this week in favor of impeachment, however, i would caution democrats on the polling aspect of this and really i would say look at more of the state level, the local polling, because we know what happened in 2016 when we focused so much on that national level polling. >> i want to ask you about more than 95% of the democratic caucus support some sort of impeachment action here but you have ten holdouts, about ten of those. how important is it for nancy pelosi to bring them on board and how does she do it? >> well, it is quite important to have the entirety of the democratic caucus on board, even if you are looking at a pure vote standpoint on the house if you are going to bring something to the floor in the house of representatives. the ten remaining holdouts are all in districts where president trump won in 2016 so it might be a little bit tougher to bring them along, but bringing them into the fold is going to further cement the status of this particular scandal investigation involving ukraine

being different than stuff that had taken place in the past. and this is really the key point to make because president trump's defense here it really amounts to this is nothing different than other things that have been brought up, other things the democrats have brought up. if you are able to get some of these democrats in really trump districts which are the only remaining holdouts it goes to further cement that this is something that is very different. >> julia, you heard speaker pelosi saying political risk doesn't matter, she said this is a matter of patriotism. do you buy that? is that the current sentiment or is the political risk just lower in this case. >> that's what you've been hearing from democrats this week when they are questioned as to whether they should really focus on impeachment as opposed to other issues like health care and the committee going into 2020. these democrats are very much saying this is a national security issue and this is an issue that voters care about because voters care about national security obviously, however, i've also been talking to a number of democratic operatives and strategists who

say that this is essentially a strategy of walking and chewing gum at the same time. so they will focus on impeachment, they will focus on investigating the president but at the same time they will focus on health care, they will focus on the talking point that although the economy may be good at the macro economic level it's not good at the micro economic level and main street for a number of voters. so i think democrats are very much aware of the fact that in 2018 they did not win on this message of impeaching the president and removing him from office. they won because they focused solely on issues like health care. so they are very much aware of that fact and they haven't forgotten that. >> on the other side, alan, you have republicans showing signs of dis can fortunate in defense of trump, while there may be more of the mainstream republicans are still with him, or is there erosion you're seeing? it was interesting to hear from jeff flake saying that 35 senators would vote to oust him if it were secret. what are you seeing there as far as the support?

>> we haven't necessarily seen an erosion of support from the president yet among republicans but it is notable that a number are out there saying, hey, this phone call is not good. this is bad. you know, the president shouldn't be doing something like this. i think the line we've seen most frequently is that this is bad but it doesn't rise to the level of impeachment among senate republicans who have spoken on this. the president's allies, the ones who get a lot of attention in the media, they've been pretty voe sieve russ in their defense of the president so far but a lot of the senators that don't get as much attention have been the ones to be drawing out that, hey, this is not good, that we don't necessarily approve of this. you saw last week congressman mike turner of ohio he is an apply of the president and he started off at the if i think saying this is something that was bad. >> alan and julia, thank you so much for being with me. i appreciate your time. >> thank you. all right. we'll talk about missed calendars and the depositions expected this coming week from several state department officials and i will ask my

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democrats on the hill are hoping for new insights this week after three house committees issued a subpoena to secretary of state mike pompeo demanding depositions from five state department officials. the chairman on the house foreign affairs intelligence and oversight committees warn if these officials fail to owe peer it, quote, shall constitute evidence of obstruction of the

house's impeachment inquiry. joining me now is trial lawyer, kat katie fong and glenn kirschner. >> glel alley do they have to testify and if they fail to cooperate what happens? >> so they should testify, nobody should be defiant and not actually comply with an order from congress to sit for a deposition, especially one of this import, but we've seen, frances, that there's nothing that has stopped this administration from preventing people to give the transparency that everybody deserves to get. because of that could they theoretically refuse, sure they could, but i think the reality is i don't think that's going to happen, especially if you look at the current party line coming out this have administration. the trump administration is claiming that there's nothing wrong, there was no quid pro quo, why would we turn over the

actual contents of that call with president zelensky of the ukraine if there was nothing to hide. so at this point in time i think you're going to see the employees, now, remember, the current employees because it was mentioned kurt volker no longer works for this administration, he resigned on friday night. so we will have at least four state department employees show up this week. during the course of those depositions, frances, i would actually want to focus on the involvement specifically of rudy giuliani and bill barr. i would of course ask questions about donald trump, there could be an issue vis-a-vis some issue with privilege, executive privilege, but i would want to try to get as information as possible about rudy giuliani and bill barr. i'd like to see if we can make both of them so uncomfortable that they end up trying to flip against donald trump or against each other more so than they already have. >> we have heard from barr reporting that he is upset and angry, trying to distance

himself from this whole thing because you have rudy giuliani who has very very vocal about this. in an interview he just read his personal text messages. it's been argued he's trying to further implicate the state department and hoping to draw attention away from himself. glen, how serious of a problem is this for the state department? >> you know, i think it could be a real problem for the state department because the summary, not transcript of the call, but the summary of the call that we now have seen shows that the president is engaged in improperly trying to extract something from the president of ukraine and holding congressionally allocated funds hostage in order to do that. so for the state department to have been involved in any way in furthering that effort is a legal problem. the people that i want to see testify, frances, are the people that ig atkinson refers to in

the second sentence of his report because what he says in that report is i have received information from multiple u.s. government officials that president trump is using his office to solicit interference from a foreign country in the 2020 elections. michael atkinson has told us he's talked with multiple u.s. officials who said president trump is doing wrong. we need to see those people. this is not just one whistle-blower, this is a lot of people inside government who have reported, not publicly yet, but reported the wrongdoing they have seen. we now need to see that. >> all right. let's talk about the depositions that are set in the coming week, we have that calendar of those officials who are expected to speak and testify on them, too. katie, what are the questions you would ask them and even for those who wouldn't testify or who are in the going to just yet? >> so, frances, congressional rules entitled these deponents

or employees to have personal counsel present during the course of these depositions and if i were making these questions i would actually begin with the who, what, where, why and how. i mean, those are really important questions to have answered. i also would not just limit it to the ukraine context. i would actually ask questions about the allegations that calls with the saudi family, calls with president putin are now being stored in an exclusive, you know, locked down server. i'd want to know the information behind that because that leads you to more evidence either direct or circumstantial evidence of obstruction of justice if this administration including trump is trying to block access or trying to hide the fact that he's actually doing something illegally then i think that that would be a really great entrée into being able to explore that. perhaps it's not just the ukraine and this call with zelensky and the myriad of calls and contact between giuliani, et cetera, but that there are other countries implicated in this

including putin. >> that's the fact that they would be forthcoming with that information, glen, the reality is we may never see that or there may not be that cooperation after all. >> i'm with katie here. we now have learned that there are lots of calls and the summaries of these calls have been placed in a database or a server that was not designed to hold these kind of calls. let's face it, the trump administration was trying to hide these calls, bury these calls. doesn't it feel a lot like when congress was -- or when special counsel was subpoenaing richard nixon's tapes, congress needs to subpoena these calls and let's see if the administration ponies up or obstructs up because now we need to see what was being said to other world leaders that might have been improper. >> because we have heard the defense there is that it was standard, just standard to put them in that locked away secret server just to keep them out of, you know, peering eyes.

glenn, i want to talk about rudy giuliani once again who defended his clients comments asking the ukrainian president to do him a favor. let's hear more from rudy. >> don't leaders of foreign countries have the right to call each other up and ask each other for a favor? >> in the case of evidence of serious criminal conduct they have the obligation to do it. in fact, if the president hadn't done it he would have violated article 2 section 3 of the constitution to take care of the laws faithfully executed. >> how do you interpret that, glenn? >> i have never heard an argument before that if the president hadn't committed this time he would have committed a crime. think about how ridiculous that reasoning s let me tell you this, frances, if rudy giuliani has any sort of lingering law abidingness or legal reasoning left in his head, when he hits the congressional witness stand he sure better invoke his fifth amendment right against

self-incrimination which i pro difficult any lawyer he retains will advise him to do because he is in hot water. >> we heard you say, note, when, when he appears. all right. glen and katie always insightful. thank you. >> thank you. the impact of the impeachment inquiry will it stall action on capitol hill? will anything get done? those answers next. ll will anyinthg get done those answers next but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you.

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impact of impeachment. house speaker nancy pelosi and president trump both saying they don't want legislative progress to stall, but it's up to the other side to keep things moving. >> the list goes on and on about concerns that we have already sent legislation over and we will continue to pass legislation to meet the needs of the american people. we are working together trying to be on a path to yes to pass the u.s.-mexico-canada free trade agreement. if the president doesn't want to do that because we're investigating impeachment that's up to him. >> they're going to tie up our country. we can't talk about gun regulation, we can't talk about anything. because frankly they're so tied up, they're so screwed up,

nothing gets done except when i do it. >> let's bring in bishop garrison co-founder of the joseph rainy center for public policy and republican strategist brian darling founder and president of liberty government affairs. to both of you welcome. >> bishop, let's start with you. are legislative efforts going to be stuck in a standstill until this impeachment process over? >> absolutely not. but let's talk about impeachment for a second. let's remember what this is about, three things, the sankity of our elections, our democracy and national security. that is incredibly important. other legislation is not going to stop congress is going to continue to do its job but it is of paramount importance that this impeachment inquiry move forward, that we get to the bottom of the president's actions. >> brian, so how do republicans respond to that position we just heard from speaker pelosi that the house has passed legislation and wants to keep it going and that momentum there but it's up to the president to decide if it will get anywhere. >> i think speaker pelosi is wrong, i think speaker pelosi is

not seriously trying to legislate when you look at the fact that they are not interacting with the trump administration on gun issues, on how to finally resolve the funding of the federal government. they just did a continuing resolution but they need to go into this further. we know what's happening here. the whole congress is going to be sidetracked by talk of impeachment, i don't think so is now -- even though they claim that this is a clear and present danger to america, congress decided to go on a two-week vacation. they are not going to do much over the next two weeks and they are probably not going to do much through the fall. >> brian, the house passed gun legislation months ago. it already did it. to say that the impeachment inquiry is nothing else than politics as usual is ridiculous and is dumb founding that people would even push that as an agenda point. >> brian, given that what, if anything, do you think can get done while this whole process gets played out. >> i don't think democrats want to get anything done. i think they are a okay pushing legislation over to the senate that they know the senate can't

pass. they know the president won't sign. >> but that's not on the speaker. >> it's on the senate. >> of course it is. >> how? how is that the speaker's fault? come on. how is it the speaker's fault that mitch mcconnell won't move legislation forward. it's not. we need to be talking to him. >> basically what you're saying is if you don't go along with the democrats then you're wrong. >> i'm not saying that. i'm saying i want the senate to do its job and the senate leadership to do its job. >> well, we have a system where the president actually has to sign legislation. they're not going to sign this crazy left wing agenda that the democrats -- >> left wing agenda. >> it's true. >> when the majority of voters support background checks and support tougher regulations on guns. come on. like we've been hearing these talking points over and over and they don't work. the president is doing everything he can to distract african americans from the fact that he tried to leverage the most powerful position in the world for his own personal and political gain. >> congress has been wanting to

impeach the president since he was sworn into office. >> they've been wanting to impeach him ever since he started having criminal conduct, which is exactly what he has been doing. >> well, the democrats want to overturn the results of the election. >> -- and tell us otherwise. >> its democrats are trying to use congress, the power that congress has of oversight to use -- >> to ensure people are held accountable. >> -- opposition research for the next election and that's what we're seeing right now. >> we could go back and forth and see who voters are going to blame if nothing gets done, whose party has the most at risk here. let's forward this and talk about the top story here this morning, the new little nugget with the "washington post" reporting this morning that the state department is intensifying the email probe of hillary clinton's former aides. brian, to you, why hasn't the trump administration let this one go? is there a benefit and what is it as far as bringing this out until the next election? >> well, it makes me uncomfortable. if you do read the story it does say this investigation has been

going on ever since president trump was sworn in. >> but the timing. the timing especially given -- >> the timing is suspect at best. >> agreed. the timing looks bad but we are talking about 30,000 emails, we are talking about a lot of emails, it took a lot of time to get through t i think a lot of career employees are going through it. i don't think it's all about politics, but i don't like the look of it and, again, you know, i don't want to get in the situation where we're criminalizing politics on both sides. democrats are calling for the hammer to come down on president trump. >> because he deserves it. >> because of this call. he released details of the call. >> that were terrible for him. he released details that make him look as though he conducted criminal activity, brian. >> what crime did he commit? >> he literally said he need you to do me a favor. he literally said that. >> he didn't commit any crime. >> brian, come on. >> what crime did he commit? >> he leveraged his position as president in order to get a political favor. >> which is inappropriate. >> which is illegal. >> inappropriate but you don't

impeach a president for that. >> under election law it's illegal. >> president obama committed election -- >> no, this is not a both sides thing. get out of here, brian, with that. >> i was hoping we could talk about the email thing and ask you about it, bishop and also hillary and chelsea weighing on on that, too, but we have to leave it there. we would love to have you go at it more. >> we would love to go at it more, but okay. >> i can imagine that's the case. thanks so much for the early wake up. i want to turn now to some breaking news in hong kong where protests are under way happening for the 17th straight weekend. tens of thousands of demonstrators marching in the streets as police fire tear gas. the upheaval coming two days before china marks 70 years of communist rule. janis mackey frayer is on the ground there in hong kong with the latest. good morning. >> reporter: good morning. this has been going on for several hours and appears to be winding down, but over the course of the afternoon kind of

swath through the center of the city thousands of protesters and several police trying to head them off at every step of the way. it turned particularly nasty when the protesters had closed down part of the roadway that gave them essentially front line access to government buildings and what is the garrison for the people's liberation army, they were throwing bricks, they were throwing petrol bombs and the police then responded with water cannons and then out of nowhere some of the special forces came, swooped in using paint balls, trying to target protesters and in the end they did make several arrests. they then spent the next few hours squeezing from every possible side to try to get the crowds to disperse. there is a lot of destruction through central hong kong, there had been fires burning, there is a lot of graffiti. this is one of the mtr stations

behind us here that was closed down earlier. the glass has been smashed, there's spray paint and in some cases the sprinkler systems had been set off. you had mentioned this is all in advance of what is a big day in china on tuesday. it's the october 1st national day, the 70th anniversary celebrations for the prc. there's going to be a huge military parade through beijing. this day means a lot to the chinese leadership. it's why protesters here are vowing that they are going to create the biggest possible distraction with having the protests continue. there have been the attempt by hong kong's government here last week to meet with people to try to begin some sort of discussion towards resolving the issues that have troubled the city for 17 weeks now. there are few people who believe that these discussions are going to lead to much of anything. they say that the government needs to come through on five

demands and not one less. they are going to -- they are pledging that they are going to be out here in force on tuesday to try to rain on that parade. >> janis mackey frayer from hong kong. thank you. now, coming up at the top of the hour, "up" with david gura and david joins us now. fresh from your trip in austin, texas. >> yes, i am back. house speaker nancy pelosi gave us an update on the impeachment process last night. as we get a better sense of what the timeline for this is likely to be, tom steyer is going to join us on "up" this morning, he's somebody who has been pushing for impeachment long before he decided to run for president. we will hear more this morning from rudy giuliani as well and in so doing we will take a look at the role he has played in this entire scandal and the legal jeopardy he might be in as a result. >> looking forward to it. thank you. why the british prime minister some have called the donald trump of great britain may be on his way out and

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this man known widely as the british version of donald trump could soon be on the list of the shortest term prime ministers in uk history. take a look at what happened to boris johnson yesterday. >> boris, you are a liar. you are a cheat. you are a charlatan. you are not fit. >> johnson is facing a possible

vote of no confidence when the parliament meets this week. matt bradley joins us now. what's behind this vote and what would it mean for johnson's term as prime minister? >> reporter: that's a good question. on the one end there is the political imperative behind this vote, the opposition and moderate members of parliament they are trying to do everything they possibly can to avoid what's called a no deal brexit. if that means removing the prime minister just a month before britain is supposed to crash out of the european union then that's what members of this parliament might be willing to do, but there's also a somewhat emotional element here. you could call it vengeance. boris johnson tried to kneecap the parliament by suspending them for weeks ahead of this scheduled departure from the european union. it was a really bold and risky move and one that now looks like it's going to backfire spectacularly. this parliament is out for blood, they are furious at prime minister boris johnson for his attempt to silence them, to prevent them from blocking this no deal brexit.

so what is a no deal brexit, frances? it means that instead of leaving the european union with some kind of negotiated deal on customs or trade, the uk would just leave and fall back on standard rules governing international trade like the world trade organization or the gat agreement. lots of mostly leftist and centrist politicians here in the uk worried that this will leave a giant brexit-shaped hole in the uk's dealings with europe, its largest trading partner and that would be disastrous for the economy. but boris johnson suffered a major defeat last week when british courts ruled that his attempt to suspend or prorogue parliament violated the constitution. it may have meant that the prime minister also violated the trust of the queen who johnson had to ask for authorization in order to suspend parliament. just this morning britain's daily telegraph reported after that supreme court ruling boris johnson phoned the queen and apologized for misleading her on

that proroguing issue. it's an awkward moment one that's likely to play out disastrous as this week goes on. >> so much up in the air with brexit, boris johnson and if he goes who is going to replace him? matt bradley, thank you. new reporting about the secret server and white house leaks. i will talk to an ethics lawyer from the obama white house. her unique perspective next. r from the obama white house her unique perspective next. humira patients, you inspire us. the way you triumph over adversity. and live your lives. that's why we redesigned humira. we wanted to make the experience better for you. now there's less pain immediately following injection. we've reduced the size of the needle and removed the citrate buffers.

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the president must be held accountable. no one is above the law. >> i think it's ridiculous. it's a witch-hunt. >> president trump made the incredulous about the impeachment inquiry but betters are more inclined to think he could be removed from office. in june the odds on power were 2 to 1 against the trump impeachment and now the odds are just about even. we are hearing detailing about the secret server. the "wall street journal" reporting overnight embarrassing leaks led to a clamp down on trump's phone records. the paper says in 2017 back to back leaks of controversial remarks by trump during calls with leaders of mexico and australia resulted from an unusually loose record distribution policy in the first days of the trump white house.

leading to this secret server's eventual use for records of calls involving leaders of saudi arabia, russia and ukraine. joining me to talk about it is virginia cantor chief ethics council at citizen he is counci for ethics and responsibility. and former white house associate counsel to presidents obama and trump. i want to get your reaction that there was a secret server where all of these embarrassing calls were getting stashed away. >> well, in truth, it is highly irregular. these are highly classified systems and should be used only for highly classified purposes. the fact that they are trying to hide politically embarrassing documents and possibly so as to void the disclosure of corrupt activity is highly disturbing and irregular and needs to be

looked into. >> you say disturbing and irregular. but is it illegal? >> well, if it was -- it depends on what the intent was in doing that. if it was for the purpose of hiding material that could relate to an underlying crime, then it could be illegal. >> how do they go about trying to decipher that? how is the line in trying to figure out how that would be? >> well, i think first off, we have to sit back and let congress look into this. one of the most disconcerting things about these revelations, it reveals there may have been a coverup. and why do you have a coverup

unless there's something wrong going on. so this is something that needs to be looked into very carefully by congress especially in light of the whistle-blower complaint we are confronting. >> the journal article talks about the white house's efforts to clamp down on secrecy after information was leaked out. we have seen more leaks in this administration than previous ones. during your time in the white house, what is your take on this administration and the approach they have to these leaks? and can leaks be perceived as an ethics question? >> so let me just say that unless you're leaking, you know, classified information, it's not illegal. and federal employees have an obligation to disclose fraud, waste, abuse or corruption. so i just want to say at the outset, what the whistle-blower did is highly appropriate because he or she was reporting

alleged abuse or corruption. in terms of what the white house approach is, on the one hand he's attacking individuals so i don't know what their strategy is. but that's -- you know, that's for them. >> the president did weigh in during a private event on thursday on people who gave this information to the whistle-blower. i want to play that and then ask you about it. >> i want to know who is the person that gave -- the whistle-blower? who is the person that gave the whistle-blower the information? because that's close to a spy. you know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart, radio it? with spice and tries on, right? we used to handle it a little differently than we do now. >> he didn't say executed but

the innuendo is there. what is your take on how the president went about explaining that? >> we had to remember we had a whistle-blower who filed a credible complaint of urgent concern that disclosed alleged abuses of power by a president that poses national security risks and threatens to undermine our democratic elective processes. and now he is threatening execution. that is beyond anything we have ever seen by -- i'm not aware of any american official ever engaging in that kind of conduct, let alone a president. it is an extreme act of intimidation. and potentially obstructive. >> you have the whistle brother and we have seen attempts of wanting to reveal the identity. politico magazine had an article this week about the retaliation against whistle brothers.

it refers to whistle-blowers who put their name and face not faring well as this article goes they're often blackballed. they are too easily vilified and reflect attention to the problems they are trying to reveal. what laws are in place to protect them? >> well, there are laws in place to protect them. like i said at the outset, these federal employees, especially members of the intelligence community, have an affirmative obligation to expose abuse and corruption, which is what this individual did. and obviously they do so with some risk. that's why it is incumbent upon the i.g., incumbent upon dni, and congress to ensure that every possible measure is taken to protect this individual and any other individual who is required to testify in connection with this matter. >> rt there.

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thanks so much for being with me the past two hours. i'm francis rivera. "up" with david gura starts right now. ♪

this is "up". i'm david gura with an update on the impeachment process this morning from house speaker nancy pelosi. >> we must be somber. we must be prayerful. we must pursue the facts further. we cannot ignore our oath of office to protect and defend the constitution of the united states from all enemies, foreign and domestic. >> speaker, you say --. >> the timeline is coming into focus. the chairman of the house intelligence committee is taking the lead. what is dead may never die. the trump administration is reportedly investigating the email records of state department officials who served as aides to hillary clinton as rudy giuliani makes his way to a tv camera. he has not been shy about saying he is prepared to do battle with the state department. moments ago, brand-new polling on what