this is "up". i'm david gura with an update on the impeachment process this morning from house speaker nancy pelosi. >> we must be somber. we must be prayerful. we must pursue the facts further. we cannot ignore our oath of office to protect and defend the constitution of the united states from all enemies, foreign and domestic. >> speaker, you say --. >> the timeline is coming into focus. the chairman of the house intelligence committee is taking the lead. what is dead may never die. the trump administration is reportedly investigating the email records of state department officials who served as aides to hillary clinton as rudy giuliani makes his way to a tv camera. he has not been shy about saying he is prepared to do battle with the state department. moments ago, brand-new polling on what americans think about trump's actions tied.

senior editor, senior reporter for buzzfeed news, and republican strategic. and hillary for america. they are both msnbc contributors. from washington, d.c. ely covers the white house for the los angeles times. we begin with president trump at war with an impeachment inquiry that threatens his presidency. he is calling it presidential harassment while pushing unsubstantiated claims about joe biden. this is the first in u.s. history to deal with the president's ties to a foreign country. a brand-new poll out from abc news this morning shows 63% of americans believe what the president did in that phone call is a serious problem. in austin, texas, last night, speaker nancy pelosi spoke about what she says is at stake. >> we cannot have a president of the united states undermining his oath of office, undermining our national security, and

undermining the integrity of our elections. i'm heartbroken about it. i would just have hoped that there would be something exculpatory, something that would say, oh, this is not what it seems to be. but that's not where we are right now. >> let's take a quick look how we got to where we were. back in january, rudy giuliani met with the prosecutor general. may 1st, "new york times" published its original story on joe biden and son hunter. nine days later, giuliani canceled a trip to ukraine after the "times" reported on it. july 18th, president trump ordered the halt of $400 million in military aid. july 24th mueller testifies to congress. july 25th, the very next day, he the president asks for a favor. august 12th, the whistle-blower complaint to congress.

and september 9th house panels investigate rudy giuliani's involvement. september 11th, withheld ukraine and released. and september 18th "washington post" reports on whistle brother complaint. and september 25th, pelosi launches the impeachment inquiry. in a new video out last night, president trump goes after the democrats. >> the democrats want to take away your guns. they want to take away your health care. they want to take away your vote. they were to take away your freedom. they want to take away your judges. they want to take away everything. >> that's quite a list. while the president claims harassment, the "washington post" is intensifying its ale probe of hillary clinton's former aides. hard to believe i'm saying that in the year 2019. as many as 130 officials have

been contacted in recent weeks by state department investigators. we wind our way to this email investigation in a moment. let's go to the house speaker's remarks last night. she is prayerful, something she brings up time and time ago. what do we know of the timetable thus far. she said how long she hasn't wanted this to act. in the in the purview of the intelligence committee at this point. >> my sense is it is a collective agreement by the democratic caucus we want to get this over with quickly. we don't want this distraction to 2020. we have an important presidential race. people believe donald trump can best be defeated at the ballot box. we want them to wrap up quickly. at the same time she's taken such a measured approach. i cannot imagine anyone else but speaker police where who is able to corral her caucus and come at this with in a measured,

methodical way. adam schiff, somebody who has such deep respect on the aisle, even devin nunes likes to try to pretend otherwise. and i think she has made it very clear she wishes that she was not in this position. she wishes she did not have to go forward with an impeachment inquiry against the president. he has put her in this situation where she has no other alternative. she has to go forward on this. i am so grateful to see the contrast between how measured and careful the democrats are on this versus the trump administration, who seems -- and republicans, by the way in congress -- who seem to be flailing around out there trying to come up with some sort of message that's working. and it's not. >> in the comments last night, the house speaker turned to the president and said you have come into my wheel house now. i have 25 years of experience in experience. she was not excited to begin this process, as she echoed last night as well.

now she is. she is bringing a lot to bear. >> and she is also saying i know what i'm doing. i know our country's history. i know how the intelligence community works. let's not forget, part of what is so scary about president trump and what we've learned is that he is clueless. he has no idea of the importance of his words and how his words with foreign government affect our national security. that in many ways our country has a long history of our word is our bond. he doesn't care about that. nancy pelosi, by saying i have 25 years in the intelligence community is saying, i know how things work. i know what you've done. i know how it's wrong. and we will present it as such. you can bring up hillary clinton if you want. you can bring up biden if you want. but at the end of the day, the facts will play out. >> ely, as i go to that poll, 63% of those surveyed said this is a serious thing. to the point susan made just moments ago, there are many democrats who recognize the

gravity of this situation. probably many republicans who do as well. you look at the reaction we have seen and advisers, there seems to be blind ignorance of where we are in history, the importance of this. >> well, the president has never been conscious of history and some would say of right and wrong. this is a guy who operates in the moment, moment to moment, believes whatever he wants to say is the right thing to say. and he just sort of barrels forward. you know, you have democrats, pelosi and a lot of folks in her caucus who have been reluctant to engage in impeachment because it is unlikely that the republican senate will remove trump from office. they didn't want to get engaged in another ugly partisan food fight. the speaker, after this, said there is really no choice. abigail spanberger who wrote an op-ed that broke the dam, she is a first-term person from a very republican district in virginia and has been very measured.

democrats like that that pelosi wanted to protect from an impeachment probe and being portrayed as being totally political, totally about taking down donald trump. because that might work for aoc, but it doesn't work for a lot of moderates. when the moderates came out, it tells you how obvious and damning the evidence in this whistle-blower complaint and the news reports about it because the complaint hadn't even been released yet, how damning that was. i'm not sure the president even understands that at this point. for the white house to release its own transcript that basically corroborated the whistle brother complaint -- and there were people who didn't want him to do that. they understand it was incriminating. the president himself doesn't believe he did anything wrong here. he was the one who pushed to get that thing released because he thinks it's exculpatory. whereas you see now, 63% of

people in the poll find otherwise. >> the eagerness to get this accomplished by the end of the year before we look forward to the next election. you have what eli is talking about, not transcripts but memorandum of the conversation he had there. we have a lot of information here still. what does the investigation look like? >> the intelligence community, as you said, schiff and the rest of the committee, is hanging back over the two-week break that the house just went on to gather this information. the whistle brother's complaint served as a road map in that it names people, dates and times where the conversations were happening. so several members of the state department who were named within the whistle-blower complaint have been already subpoenaed to come before the house. the former special adviser to the ukraine, who resigned over the weekend. >> kurt volker. >> kurt volker, he has already agreed to come and testify. so the dominoes are falling into place there. once the intelligence committee moves forward on all of these

things, it could go one of two ways. one, it gets bigger than we expected it to. one, it is not just this call to president zelensky to the ukraine. it is other politically sensitive calls, transcripts were place spaod this ultra-secure server where they don't into. the investigation could grow wider. or schiff and the intelligence committee gather enough, pass it to judiciary, who will draw up articles of impeachment based on what they find. they have been given this deadline to wrap up their, two, send it over to the zhuzh ear and see what they can come up with. >> has the judiciary been sidelined here? when you look at the letter from nancy pelosi this week, what adam schiff wrote, he is running all of this. the judiciary will come up with articles should that happen. but he's really in the lead here. there is no select committee. do you think that's interesting or notable as well? the way nancy pelosi has chosen

to go about this thing. >> of course when you have a select committee that means speaker or respected leader of that caucus is in charge of deciding who is going to be part of that. so to me this tells me has the full confidence of all the chairmen and women that have jurisdiction over this area, finance, judiciary, intelligence. i think there's five or six that have jurisdiction. that to me tells me she has full faith and confidence in her leaders in congress and the democratic leadership in congress. that's exactly what you want out of the speaker. >> it is also a political choice, which was very smart as a tactician, to keep it in the intelligence committee. except under president trump, like many other things, the intelligence committee in the house and senate were the gold standards. where partisan did not come into play here. we always put national security first. so by keeping the intelligence

committee and adam schiff in charge of it for now or likely loading it, it says this is a national security problem. everything else you hear is noise. but this is national security. this is wife we have to pay attention. >> eli, let me turn to this article in the "washington post" today. state department investigators looking of hillary clinton emails. i can't believe we're talking about this in 2019. help us understand why this is coming up again. we talk about the way the republicans are responding to the impeachment inquiry. is it part and parcel of that? your read of that the state department taking this up three and a half years later. . >> i don't have a clear, definite answer on how to categorize it. it certainly sometimes to most people receiving this news, it seems rather suspicious and not just a president who is looking to crackdown on any leakers, whistle blowers, anybody in the

executive branch who might have information specifically at the state department about foreign calls. he does not want them coming forward. you heard the comments earlier this week where he likened the whistle-blower to spice and t e treasonous people. it seems it is to prevent them from being exposed as part of a deep state. that's the conspiracy theory the president long held and often looked to validate with various investigations. and i think any time that he feels threatened and undermined by information coming out of his own government, those instincts that, you know, conspiratorial mind-set is aggravated further. again, we don't know exactly when this started and whether it has anything to do with the ukraine inquiry and the whistle-blower's complaint, but i think it strikes a lot of people in the government as pretty suspicious. >> we heard those comments from

the president that were made at the u.s. mission to the u.n. thank you for joining on this sunday. coming up, you may have heard that the white house emailed talking points on ukraine to republican and democratic lawmakers. to what extent is the gop parroting them? we will go to the tape later this hour. >> first, how the rest of the world is talking about the impeachment. e world tisalking about the impeachment. we planned. it's going ok? great. now i'm spending more time with the kids. i'm introducing them to crab. crab!? they love it. so, you mentioned that that money we set aside. yeah. the kids and i want to build our own crab shack. ♪ ♪ ahhh, you're finally building that outdoor kitchen. yup - with room for the whole gang. ♪ ♪ see how investing with a j.p. morgan advisor can help you. visit your local chase branch. >> vo: my car is more than four wheels.y? it's my after-work decompression zone.

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this is "up". i'm david gura. while world leaders gathered in new york for the general assembly, president trump had to process what was happening as he stood on the world stage. his phone call with ukraine's president has sparked concern among national security and foreign policy officials. according to the "washington post", diplomats and world leaders are concerned about the effect of impeachment on u.s. foreign policy. privately some diplomats expressed concern and uncertainty what the scandal means for their countries and realizes with the united states. they are already starting to calibrate how washington's turn inward will distract from other crises around the world and whether they will still be dealing with the trump administration in a few months's time. they were worried more transcripts of calls between leaders will be made public. ambassador dan fried after four decades with the state department. he is now with atlantic council in washington. thank you for being with us. i want to first get your take on this. washington has been a confusing and hard-to-read place for folks

here in the united states, let alone those outside the country as well. how does this complicate things now that this impeachment inquiry is under way for leaders around the world trying to do business with the united states, trying to figure out what's going on in the capitol? >> foreign diplomats and foreign leaders are looking at the american political drama with dismay. it's not so much impeachment, however, it's what the president's phone call with zelensky, the ukrainian president, and what the whistle-blower complaint says about the way president trump looks at foreign policy. he spworb nates everything else to his own personal political interest. and that's alarming to foreigners who depend on the united states, to foreign countries that look to american leadership, and it ought to alarm americans. it certainly worries me. >> ambassador, as you look ahead to this process getting under way, and we have seen subpoenas for mike pompeo's documents for

state departments to come before committees on capitol hill. there is talk of just what this means for the state department, for your state department. a state department here ready to do battle. you hear rudy giuliani talking about the adversarial relationship he has with the department. how worried are you about what happens to foggy bottom, to the state department going forward? >> well, it is america's state department. and it takes years to build strong institutions and not so long to tear them down. i thought that the dismissal of the u.s. ambassador to ukraine was, for no good republican, a blow against professionalism. i think that kurt volker, the special envoy for ukraine, his resignation is a blow against professionalism. i'm sorry he felt he had to leave, but i understand it. the problem is in the pursuit of what appears to be president

trump's personal political interest, america's institutions and its standing in the world are damaged. and this is alarming. america is the leader of the free world, and we need to continue to play that role. europeans and others, even the ones who complain about us, seek and want american leadership. now they're worried. if president trump can throw even his own foreign policy under the bus, as he did with respect to ukraine, what is his word worth? that's -- that is alarming. >> very quickly, you mentioned kurt volker, special envoy to or for ukraine. you mention regrettably he had 20 st to step down. could he have continued in that role? >> he comes off rather well in

the whistle-blower complaint. i believe the characterization of kurt volker as someone trying to contain the damage is spot-on. full disclosure, we were colleagues for many years. i was his boss for many years. so i know him well, but i'm not unbiased here. i think he came off rather well. but he evidently felt he had to step down in this storm that he couldn't be as effective as he needed to be. and i respect that decision. the issue isn't just kurt volker. the issue is what happens to professionals? even political appointees in this administration, as kurt volker was, when they get close to this whirlwind, self-serving whirlwind, which is president donald trump. that's worrying. >> ambassador raising that in a rhetorical way. >> right. they just have to be pushed out. even from the very beginning.

secretary of state rex tillerson, he did what he thought was right. former head of exxon. he came in thinking i'm going to reform the state department, i'll have the packing of the president. trying to push off the damage of the cut that the administration overall wants to the state department. he got pushed out. it's very clear that if you are a career official inside this administration, you're not to be trusted pause you weren't on board team trump from day one. if you're not, that means you're a threat. so you have seen like the ambassador from ukraine. she was brought back months early. she wasn't fired. so there has been some talk how this was for her benefit, so she would not wind up actually fired and having to lose her pension, et cetera. she hasn't commented yet. but she has been subpoenaed. so she will be on the hill talking about all of this in the coming weeks. >> rex tillerson gutted the state department. >> absolutely. >> going to the need for

professional diplomats and what their role is in foreign policy. and globally, the fact that we have been operating with such an empty amount of emptiness in our diplomatic court is really troubling. it is interesting how the ambassador phrased a few things. it's not supposed to be the word of donald trump. it's the word of america. but donald trump doesn't know the difference. so when you have something like the ukraine situation come up, the president of the ukraine is speaking to the president of the united states. has to be freaking out saying hey do some he this favor so you can save some lives on your border with crimea fighting russia. but he has to be concerned because he knows in another two years or less, he may be dealing with democrats. so that's the fundamental problem with a lot of world leaders. you may have to deal with donald trump now but you're going to have to deal with democrats probably in two years. >> there you go. thank you very much for joining us early on this sunday. appreciate it. >> my pleasure.

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this is "up". i'm david gura. there was an oops moment after the white house emailed talking points to republican and democratic lawmakers this week. you heard some of those talking points during the house intel committee's hearing with the acting director of national intelligence. title that white house email is what you need to know president trump's call with president zelensky. myth, the president made a mysterious promise in turn for ukraine in return for information on on joe biden and his son. >> this operation began with media reports from the time instigators of the russia collusion hoax. a whistle-blower is claiming president trump made a nefarious promise to a foreign leader.

>> also there is this, when a high-ranking u.s. government official like joe biden brags that he used his official position to derail his position in another country that could have impacted his son it is appropriate for the president to suggest that the matter be looked into. ranking member devin nunes. >> he bragged into firing a prosecutor who happened to be investigating biden's own son. >> another talking point. the real scandal, leaks about a secondhand account of the presidential phone call triggered a media frenzy of false accusations. john ratcliffe of texas. >> in other words, all of this is secondhand information. none of it is firsthand information. the whistle-blower then goes on to cite additional sources behind the secondhand. they happen to include mainstream media. >> in an alternative universe, he could be testifying at that hearing.

225 democrats in favor of the impeachment inquiry and amash. there are still some holdouts. mcadams, kind, cunningham, horn, rose, grindisi. a number of pieces looking at the messaging man how you have them reading chapter and verse from this playbook that we see the president use time and time again. there were so many republicans who say i haven't read the complaint. they are so flummoxed by this. >> apparently they are not willing to read a five or six-page document but talking points. maybe that's because the president is doing that. he doesn't like to read. maybe they're following his lead. this is a problem that the republicans are facing because they are so afraid of what they don't know.

it is important as the white house tries to discredit the whistle-blower, let's not forget that president trump's appointee validated it by wanting to forward it to the house with a message of urgency. so that complaint has been validated at the very least, if not verified because we just don't know who he spoke to, that there is legitimacy here. it comes at the behest of the white house whether we like it or not. they can do all the talking and razzle dazzle they want. but the facts are there. i hope that's what we see in the intelligence committee, they pursue the facts and use it as a guideline. because it really will help present the case much better to the american public. >> how much of this messaging going forward, how much does he need surrogates to parrot, who use his playbook? there's a lot written about how

he has used the resonance of this talk radio hosts, fox news as well. >> i think he needs surrogates that he needs reassurance to his base. >> he has no war room. >> exactly. we don't know if he is going to have a war room. which is insane. communications 101 is you have a war room when you have a crisis on your hands. president clinton had one. the trump administration for them to even consider not having one is kind of crazy. look, if he needs to go back to his base and reassure them and validate them, yes, he needs rush limbaughs, judge jeanine on fox news. he needs members of the intelligence committee, what we just saw there. but that is at the expense of whatever credibility the gop and congress has left. that was embarrassing to watch all of the republican members look at the talking points and read off them as opposed to

reading the actual transcript which, by the way, is only a couple pages. it takes you about 10 minutes if you read it in depth. three minutes to speed-read it. trump is trying to reassure his base. he is doing nothing to grow his basings as we all know. when you contrast that with the very careful approach that democrats are making here, it is like night and day. >>. >> you also shouldn't give the democrats your talking points. i'm just saying. if you want to come out and sound fresh and know what you're talking about, don't send them to the democrats. >> and recall them afterwards. let's play this video. this is the one who pioneered of shooting these video outside the white house. take a look what the president posted last night. >> what's going on now is the single greatest scam in the history of american politics. the democrats want to take away your guns. they want to take away your health care. they want to take away your

vote. they want to take away your freedom. they want to take away your judges. they want to take away everything. we can never let this happen. we're fighting to drain the swamp. and that's exactly what i'm doing. and you see why we have to do it. because our country is at stake like never before. it's all very simple. they're trying to stop me because i'm fighting for you. and i'll never let that happen. . >> they're trying to stop me because i'm fighting for you and i'm never going to let you happen. something with the coherence of that message. anybody who has seen a few minutes of the rallies he does. and considering he is going to do more of these political rallies. while this happens on capitol hill there are other concerns being ignored as a result. >> if he was a bill clinton and that was his message, like you saw john poe dez toback in the impeachment hearings, he was all about making sure everyone was on message, no one was talking about impeachment and just talking about the things the country was doing and moving

forward. i feel like the biggest works the trump administration is doing, if they could build as much swamp land in florida as they have built in d.c. since coming into office, it would be one of the greatest ecological administrations in history. rebuilding the wetlands in that way. he didn't once say i didn't do it. he didn't say here's what is actually happening. instead he just talked about things that he has been talking about. the democrats are coming. they are going to take the things that you want. your taxes, gunsing et cetera. so he is just building on fear instead of having a credible logical argument. here's what happened. this is why this is important for your national security. i would be very surprised if anyone can come up with that argument. based on the fact that none of them had to do with what actually occurred in ukraine and biden's son who was never under investigation. the "post" had a great article looking at the burisma holdings,

the natural gas company biden was on the board of. in no way was hunter biden involved. the one fired at the push of joe biden, he was relatively -- he was very bad at fighting corruption, which he was supposed to be doing. >> and had all the eu behind that as well. he didn't do it on his own. >> right. the one who came afterwards, oh, yeah, we were considering looking at hunter biden. he was doing that to try to keep his job. you have to look at both sides, who has the motives here. up next, how the president is attacking the whistle-blower at the center of the impeachment investigation. a three-time whistle brother who coached his fair share of other whistle brothers and said this one is about to go through. is one is about to go through all money managers might seem the same,

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welcome back to "up". i'm david gura. i'm while the identity of the whistle-blower at the center of president trump's ukraine scandal remains unknown to the general public, it has not stopped his attacks. a partisan person who carried out a hack job. whistle brother became pop her during watergate and the release of the pentagon papers. since the early days of america, this nation has always believed in public integrity. the first protection law was passed just a few months after

our founding fathers passed the declaration of independence in 1777. he's a three-time whistle-blower himself. great to have you with us, particularly given your background and what you have been through and studied and worked on. let me ask you first to react to what you saw in the rayburn building last week. >> kaougz, david. i have handled a number of disclosures and whistle-blower reprisal cases, heads of agencies. never one involving the white house. during the bush administration, a couple of times we came close. if you follow the rules and you follow the law and move the classification in the designated way the statute requires, you don't have to worry about all of this exposure because the hill

receives the information. it works on its various investigation as it does. when it reports out, it reports it out in a way that is rather sanitized. i don't think the press is always happy about that. and everything just moves along. there is a lot of disclosures made every month throughout the government and all agencies. there was no need for this to become the circus it's become. >> you heard from joe maguire, members of the committees saying this is unprecedented. they haven't seen anything like this before. does that jibe with you? we will see more things blown up in this way? >> historically, and allison can correct me later on. we are in a new environment. we have been in that environment post benghazi. time-wise, after watergate settled down, we had a lot of defense contractor disclosures. everyone was supportive in a bipartisan matter. as we move into the mid-1990s

the process started to be politicized. we need to all back the process down, use stop using it for political purposes and use it for what it is designed for, get evidence of wrongdoing so special counsel and prosecutors can all do their jobs. >> dan, count me among those who hadn't seen a whistle-blower account like this before. what does it tell you about the way this individual approached the complaint. what did you make of how it was presented? >> as a very well-written document the the first half all all speaks to stuff i have never really worked on extensively, the impeachment issues, foreign policy issues. what really grabbed my attention was the second section in the disclosure who spoke about the handling of information. if i was advising chairman schiff or if i was advising

chairman burr, i would have people looking at the rules governing how information is processed by the national security council. that's where there would be a violation of rule or regulation. from reading it, it is obvious he had a reasonable belief. >> you heard the comments the president made up in new york speaking to employees of the u.s. mission to the united nations, the way he talked about the whistle-blower, the analogy made to spice and treason that happened during that event. what effect will have that on the intelligence community as they think about perhaps making a claim like we saw last week? >> no question there is a chilling effect. but the important thing on a legal side is that the president is giving evidence of motive of reprisal here. if somebody goes after the whistle-blower at this point who works for the president, an investigators would look and say, well, why would somebody go after the whistle-blower. there are multiple statements in the press, speaking about the whistle-blower in a negative

way. the president should have come out and thanked for his patriotic service and let the process move on. . >> thank you for joining us. dan meyer joining us on this sunday morning. when we come back, how lindsey graham got linda tripp trending yesterday. rending yesterday. it's not really sometg you want to buy. it's not sexy... oh delicious. or delicious... or fun. ♪ but since you need both car and home insurance, why not bundle them with esurance and save up to 10%. which you can spend on things you really want to buy, like ah well i don't know what you'd wanna buy cause i'm just a guy on your tv. esurance. it's surprisingly painless.

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welcome back to "up". i'm david gura. there was an unexpected name trending yesterday on twitter. linda tripp. you may remember her hs the civil servant whose secondhand testimony was the center of bill clinton's testimony. her secret recorded conversations with monica lewinsky were enough to cleanse the oval office. that was lindsey graham. here he was back in 1999. >> you don't even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitution republic. if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly on it of bounds in your role, impeachment is not about punishment. impeachment is about cleansing

the office. impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office. >> turns out many people remember his argument from back then. they also saw the hypocrisy. when you listen to that comment and listen to what senator graham said after the house intelligence hearing with acting dni joseph maguire. >> it was a nothing burger for me. the phone call with the president and the ukrainian president. as to the allegations in the complaint, it's clear to me that it is a narrative being created from secondhand sources. >> according to 2019, the whistle-blower's complaint not valid because it is based off secondhand sourcing. that is how he brought linda tripp into the twitter sphere yesterday. >> coming up next hour, the impeachment inquiry ramps up as the public is outline in. a senior member of the house

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>> the president has also said article 2 says i can do whatever i want. no.

there's article 1, article 2, article 3. it doesn't say. so he is trying to move it closer to tpheus actions to a monday arky and farther away from a republic. >> this is "up". i'm david gura. joe biden a central figure in the scandal that is sending shock waves through the 2020 campaign. now he is facing a barrage of attacks from president trump and his allies. a new scrutiny of his family reacting to the news on tuesday for the first time, the former vice president spoke to one of the main themes of his presidential campaign that donald trump is and has been a danger on our democracy. >> i can take the political attacks. they will come and they will go. in time they will soon be forgotten. but if we allow a president to get away with shredding the united states constitution that will last forever. >> they continue to trade jabs.

senator elizabeth warren, who is centered on ending corruption, used it to her advantage on the campaign trail. >> it doesn't have to be a quid pro quo. it is solicitation of help from a foreign government for his own political purposes. that is the smoking gun. it's right there in his own words. he's admitted it. and this means it is time for the house to do its impeachment proceedings. . >> it is? >> it is. and i'm glad it is. >> biden said all of this is a distraction and there is no "there" there. >> he is using abuse of power and every element of the presidency to try to do something to smear me. everybody looked at this and

said there is nothing there. >> going to note here i'm going to beat it like a drum. in my exclusive interview, the former ukrainian general prosecutor reiterated there was no evidence of wrongdoing by joe biden or his son hunter. joining me from california is congressman, surrogate for the biden campaign, correia. how do you respond to constituents who hear this specious messaging from his surrogates, allies and ask you about it. what is your response to him as they bring up these fantastic stories about joe and hunter biden? >> good morning, everyone. i spent the whole day yesterday in my district. there's two perspectives. number one, people are sad over this whole impeachment issue. more importantly, people are outraged. they saw the russian episode. now there is a third episode on the ukraine. people want some answers. people are sad because it does

cast a shadow over our government. as people would say, lou, if you asked for help from the mexican government what would happen. of course clearly i would probably not be in my job. so people want transparency. more importantly, people in my district are telling me they want congress to do our job. they want us to do an investigation and they want us to make sure there's a government, an election system that they can rely on and trust. >> that is the whistle-blower complaint. when it comes to the former vice president, him having to engage with these stories, with this narrative, what is your message to those spouting or talking about those stories? >> i tell them i think they're absolutely right. thiss a red herring. if there's really some wrongdoing there, let the fbi handle it. let our law enforcement authorities at the fbi, federal

level, do the investigation. you should not have to engage, the president should not have to engage his private attorney, mr. giuliani, to do these investigations. if these are criminal acts, let them do it. but clearly by engaging others, then it becomes more of a political situation. . >> i have heard from reporters that this is something that the campaign doesn't want to engage. there is difficulty talking about this with the former vice president. they said this week they would like to see the former vice president speak out more forcefully against mr. trump in a way that channels the outrage of the base and resolve of democrats in congress. there was congressman, a long way to deliver that speech in alabama. are we in a similar situation where he needs to deliver a speech like that to attempt to put all of this to bed? >> it's difficult when you deal

with family. people always approach me with dirt on his family. i think most of us in elected office draw that line which is you don't go after the family. you don't go over the opponent's family. it's very difficult when it comes to family. and i think joe biden is dealing with this issue, which is how to address this. it is something emotional, very personal. we will get to that point when he comes out and addresses this face-to-face, head on, head on. >> stay with us. we have the washington bureau coach. the co-host of real trump cast and contributor to the los angeles times. there is the regrettable

resonance to what happened back in 2016. how much is that ill lust active. you see other democrats looking at and realtime here. >> it is like old home week, linda tripp, hillary's emails. >> now there is statement report investigation. . >> young voters are probably tired of this cycle. and we could be in 2016 all over again. . >> the biden thing, we can't totally overlook it, as tempting as it is. we can summarize it very quickly. biden's son, who admitted he has a drug program. president ford's wife had a drinking problem. this is not a big deal. served on the board where he did nothing of an oil company. and that's it. that's it. and he has knitted all of this.

there is definitely nothing to see there beyond that. the president is the one who betrayed our country. trump betrayed our country. that is so clear in the mueller report and so clear in this phone call and the whistle brother report. >> the messaging that has come out of this, joe biden said it's not about me. there are bigger issues at play here. they said donald trump is terrified of joe biden because he will beat him like a drum. there are clear messaging, moments of clear messaging coming out of this. >> yeah. so i completely agree with virginia that this is not about the bidens, at least for right now. this is about the president, donald trump, this is about the abuse of the executive office and abuse of the presidency and how donald trump has used the presidency for his own personal profit in other areas and his

own personal game and to punish or investigate his political enemies. one of the other things that comes out of this, and this is an area in which somebody like elizabeth warren will probably benefit and probably hammer over and over again. and joe biden should actually hammer this over and over again, is how, again, how unprepared we are for the 2020 election in terms of security, foreign interference, in terms of how we are handling even the basic areas of voting and democracy. we are just not ready in any way, shape or form. >> i go back to what senator chris coons said last weekend. he said this isn't about joe biden. this is a broader issue. what we are seeing could be afflicting or affecting any number of democratic candidates. >> it is true that trump should be on the defensive for what he did. and republicans are trying to rally around a fellow who showed corrupt intent.

"washington post" reported he told russians he was unconcerned about the attack. >> in the infamous meeting with sergey lavrov and sergei kiss lov kislyak. he does know -- as crazy as he seems, rudy giuliani, they keep saying the words biden, investigation, corruption. over and over and over again. we don't know if there's anything there. we need to see if there's corruption. and ides biden, biden, biden, investigation. so the problem everybody has and hillary had and couldn't figure out how to teal with it, when you have someone willing to say anything, things false, but saying them over and over and creating an impression for voters not reading all the details, there's something going on with biden and ukraine. there is something fishy there.

maybe trump is trumping it up. trump doesn't have to win. he doesn't have to convince you that anything happened. he just has to create an innuendo that makes a muddy picture. because we know he's corrupt. so if he can make it seem like there is something and everybody is kind of a little bit sleazy here, then he wins. how you counter that is a vexing problem and it. >> crazy as a fox. perhaps crazy on fox as well. how do you combat that? it is a vexing problem, as david says. >> you know, joe biden is the front runner right now. they will be being after him, the trump campaign will be going after him hard. this is about smearing him, bringing him down. i concur that right now 2020 is going to be a very difficult election for democracy. it will be difficult to

distinguish from real news versus misinformation out there. i tell my constituents every day, as we move to 2020, be very careful who you listen to. because the russians will be at it. other countries will be at it trying to sway us. and you have that thing called the first amendment that is tkpoe going to protect a lot of this speech. so we have to be on guard. at the end of the day, we have a whistle-blower that is a patriot. he is an individual that spoke up and said something is wrong with government. let's look at this. and he is being called a traitor. i would say, yes, 2020 is going to be very challenging. and we are not ready to deal with what's coming at us. >> let me ask you to turn your head east. new cnn polling. it is a very close race between joe biden, bernie sanders. 22%. bernie sanders, 22%. elizabeth warren, 18%. it's a different story in south carolina where joe biden, the

front-runner has 37% compared to elizabeth warren's 16%. what is the strategy from nevada? you're in california. you spent time equipment. what's the strange to differentiate the campaign from the others? >> they will be needed to win the presidency. california is going to go deep. texas will probably go hard. the five swing states, i think biden can take them. you know towards the end of the election cycle, polls tighten up. once you begin shedding light, higher scrutiny on the two or three front-runners, that's when polls begin to matter. every campaign i run, you start out 20 points ahead, 10 points

behind. this is exactly what you would expect. we need to debate health care, foreign policy, immigration. they will have an opportunity to present their case to the american public. and you will see the polls tighten, no doubt. >> tee up a conversation for us here in new york. the house judiciary committee. it seems like it is the intelligence committee taking the lead here. what is the role of the judiciary committee here while all of this is unfolding, as this becomes or seems to be very narrowly focused investigation. draft articles article of impeachment. >> first of all, let's remember no one is above the law. the job of congress is oversight, investigation, making sure there's transparency in government. we are co-qualls to the presidency, to the executive

branch. and our job is to investigate to make sure the government is transparent. we have five committees that are looking into issues right now. it is looking more and more likely, which is to do the actual impeachment. >> thank you, lou correia for joining us this morning. >> thank you. . >> am i making more of this than i should? it seems adam schiff -- >> not more than you should. it is fantastic news for those of us who care about this as a national security breach, i mean the conversation with the president and conspireing with a foreign power. we should point out that too much talk about the former vice president, even repeating his name over and over again as though he is the issue, this is about trump and the kremlin.

they are, one the political rival. and russia is still at war with ukraine. it's been only since 2014 since they annexed crimea. they want to make ukraine the enemy. they want to even blame ukraine for the 2016 meddling. which we know that is the -- the russians interfered in our election to get trump elected and successfully got trump elected. we need to keep our eye on that ball and not pay attention to any of the rest of it. >>. >> your observation of adam schiff. yes, there was process and procedure at the beginning and a masterful q&a at the end with ma admire. spell out what's at issue. what is the focus of the new investigation? >> i think adam schiff has done one of the other better in the democratic caucus hitting the

major points. if you look at when mueller testified that day, 24 they sta with the judiciary committee. they got lost in the matters of obstruction. which is important. but it was very hard to follow. adam schiff focused on the second volume about the russian attack and connections between the trump campaign and their interactions with russians and talked about how it was betrayal. he got a big message out. it was totally subsumed that it came at 1:00 in the afternoon. i showed he is able to think in the big picture. he had a great opening statement when maguire testified about what this means. i think the committee got a little bit lost, again, in the process of what month guyer told who, what, when and where. he is not the issue. the issue is what the complaint says.

it goes back to his corrupt intent. they need to keep that in the focus. . >> house speaker nancy pelosi yesterday talked about how she is heartbroken, prayerful. how difficult is it going to be for the 225 democratic lawmakers as they make their way back for the district work period, what used to be known as a recess, to talk to their constituents about that. >> i don't think it will be that difficult at all. the base has wanted something, whether an inquiry, hearings, some kind of acknowledgment that really there is a significant support amongst the base for holding president trump accountable for his actions. we have seen time and time again congress was split, nancy pelosi was against it. now they are going home and saying, well, look, actually there's something here and we're united in this respect. so i think what's interesting is the base is going to want some

kind of movement. but the next step, and this is where it was very clear in nancy pelosi's words, in the preliminary actions they're taking, is going to be looking into this and broadcasting that messaging to the public to give people clear susuccinct talking points. >> we will see how quickly they conduct this investigation. later on "up", 2020 contender tom steyer will join us. the shambassador in the white house. ador in the white house. >> stay calm, mr. president. i know things look bad right now, but i have a top guy on this. >> good. well, let's get him on the phone too. . >> hello! but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer,

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surprised and angry to be lumped together with rudy giuliani, the president's personal lawyer. he canceled a paid appearance in armenia. president putin was scheduled to close out that event. giuliani ruffled the feathers of several in congress. i wish he would shut the heck up, as one put it to politico, declining to speak on the record. he's as child as a march hare.

he's a free range chicken. in many cases he left viewers scratching their heads. >> did the president threaten to cut off aid to the ukraine. >> no. that was a false story. >> 100%? >> well, i can't tell you if it's 100%. >> why not just give the whistle brother -- >> you make it hard on these phonies. >> did you read the transcript? >> let's say it was read to me. . >> the whole thing? >> i hope. >> so the president did bring up joe biden on the call? >> maybe he didn't bring it up. it could be possible the president of the ukraine brought it up. >> i should get some kind of award. >> is your relationship with pompeo good? >> mike, if you're unhappy with me, i'm sorry. but i accomplished my mission. >> you usually say incredibly stupid things. >> shut up, moron. shut up. >> still imagining that

transcript being read to him. tom, let's start with your reporting on this conference in armenia. rudy giuliani was scheduled to speak at this event which was also going to include president putin, president rouhani of iran as well. what did he say about his involvement in that conference and what is that? his reaction to it, his acceptance say about his approach to work overseas the last few years? >> well, david, it is, first of all, important to point on it that after our story about rudy giuliani's plan to appear at this russian-backed conference in armenia next tuesday, after the story appeared, within an hour rudy giuliani was in touch with us to say i'm going to cancel that speech. he said he didn't know that the president of russia was going to be there. i can tell you, david, that from the former diplomats and intelligence officials we talked to there have real shock the

president's lawyer would be appearing at such a conference. and former ambassador to russia michael mcfaul said to us what hat was rudy giuliani wearing when he went to this meeting that president putin is also attending? is he wearing -- this is the confusion and the difficulty of -- that rudy giuliani has created in the current environment. on the one hand, he's the president's personal lawyer. he also says that he has been authorized by the state department. and, three, he's representing private clients in the region who have interests in the region. and he has represented in the past clients in ukraine and in the region. you have mcfaul's question, which hat is he wearing when he goes to meet with the foreign leaders? . >> when he is in the hattery picking out hats. he said i'm not paid by the united states. he hasn't registered as a lobbyist even though he is

traveling overseas and working on behalf of municipalities. there was a time with the russian investigation we talked about the logan act, how that would change the atmosphere for folks like rudy giuliani who are operating in this influence. >> how little has changed. and tom's description of the many hats of rudy giuliani. i'm thinking, boy, this is what hunter biden would like to be? you talk about sleaze and corruption, whether it's legal or not, or illegal. here he is trading off his connection on the -- with the president to get invited and get paid i'm guessing at least six figures to appear at a conference with putin. >> he said he doesn't know. it goes straight to the company. . >> straight to the company to pay the divorce settle. . nevertheless, and i congratulate tom for the piece here. one piece missing out of the puzzle is we know that trump

tasked rudy giuliani to dig up dirt on biden. now juligiuliani, says, oh, i w doing this for the state department. okay. who in the state department told him to do this? he said kurt volker, who resigned. who told kurt volker to do this? is he getting orders from pompeo or trump to help rudy giuliani dig up dirt? this is where the whole corrupt thing is. i was out last night with conservative people month kept saying, well, you know, the president is right to do this. he's trying to find out corruption overseas. i said why is he having rudy giuliani in his personal capacity as a personal lawyer do this rather than bring in the fbi? it's all corrupt. and we're just at the beginning of it. and i look forward to tom's next piece. >> here we go. featured speaker at the staten island republican club last night. let me just sort of ask you what you have observed about rudy giuliani's reaction to all of

this? in an uber ride she is talking to rudy giuliani and he basically unloads on her. they have to turn away. everything all right, after that conversation took place there? we were talking about his effectiveness after a guy hits you over the head with certain words to become the national conversation. your reaction with the way he is comporting himself? the text messages he showed in macro form on laura ingraham's show. your reaction to it? . >> yeah. rudy giuliani is, above all else, self-interested and an interesting guy. and so i think a lot of what we are seeing is flailing about. it is him trying to figure out what is his strategy going to be in this, how do i get myself out of this while remaining loyal to the president. and what i am really interested in, who is he willing to snitch on and willing to sell out in order to protect his hide without alienating his relationship with the president. this is essentially his role right now in the white house, which is to be loyal to the president, to protect the president, to find legal ways

around things that we know are kind of wink, wink, nudge, nudge, perhaps not so legal. but he doesn't have that same loyalty to other people. this is what we have been seeing. and a lot of these kind of engagement. s the past couple of days, we have seen it before in the past when rudy giuliani has come out and been very willing to say not so great and sometimes awful things about people who were formerly on his side. we are seeing him get into fights on air. i should be the real hero. i'm the real whistle-blower. i'm the one sorting out corruption. who is going to indicate as corrupt within the federal government in order to save his own hide. >> last question to you on that point and the montage we played at the top, there is the moment where he talks to mike pompeo directly. if i was your sense of the fissures or that are erupting. rudy giuliani versus the state department? >> well, in order to defend

himself and the instructions that he said that he received, the authorization he received from the state department, rudy giuliani has read to many of us in the press corps text messages he received from the former envoy to ukraine, mr. volker, that his actions were in fact, authorized and approved. we joked around about rudy's bombast on tv and calling reporters idiots and so on. one thing that has happened is rudy giuliani, by repeating this message, has raised questions, justified by the evidence or not, about joe biden and his son hunter and their activities in ukraine. and he has raised that to the top of the agenda in a way that is effective, at least to the extent that you can see all of us are talking about it. >> doing it again this morning on abc and cbs. he's a guy who likes texts. he's a source who texts. a rare thing. i appreciate it.

up next on "up", he has been pushing for impeachment long before this week. 2020 contender tom steyer's reaction to the turn of events this week after the break. th wiseek after the break.

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what happened in that phone conversation that a president of the united states would withhold military assistance, which was paid for by taxpayer money, to effectively shakedown the leader of another country unless he did him a favor? this is so clear. it's so clear. >> welcome back to "up". that was house speaker nancy pelosi in austin at the texas tribune festival. as house democrats ramp up their impeachment inquiry, it is something that tom steyer has been calling for for years now and pushed for with millions of dollars of his own money before he decided to run for president. tom steyer joins us from reno. i want you to react to the house speaker. we have seen letters, comments from the chairman of the house intelligence committee. how in line with what you're

thinking is what the house speaker is thinking at this moment? >> i think what speaker pelosi said lat night is on point. that the president was using this office for his own personal political advantage. and that's completely consistent with what he has been doing since the day he got into office. it's been very clear. i mean, i started the need to impeach campaign two years ago because it was very clear this president was corrupt. and when his corruption was uncovered, he would then try to obstruct justice. that's been his pattern. this is a very clear example of that paper. that's why i think speaker pelosi is pushing on it. it is understandable to the american people. and the american people are the people who will make the decision here about how this unfolds. >> if you're sitting with us here in new york, i would have you take a victory lap around the studio. you have been pushing for this for an awful long time. what have you learned studying the polling on this.

a lot of those going to their districts will be worried what this means polling-wise. how do americans feel about this issue? >> david, what we have seen from the very beginning is this. when we show the evidence to the american people, they always say the same things. it doesn't matter if they're trump supporters or trump opposers. they always say i didn't know that. he's a liar and a cheat. if i did that, i would go to jail. and i think that that's why this is such a clear example. what really matters here is what the american people decide. i mean, the need to impeach campaign was a petition drive by over 8 million americans to hold this president accountable. ultimately, when we get telev e televised hearings for the american people to see what this president has done, their judgment is going to run what happens, is going to control the

outcome. so having a very clear example, as the speaker said, is really important so that everybody in america can see how corrupt this president is and how this is just a pretty much straight-up question of right and wrong. we have to make sure that the inquiry focuses on the simple question of right and wrong. that's why i have been pushing this two years, david. it's just not right for a president to do this. >> how narrow an investigation do you want to see here? you have been talking for an awful lot time. we could get a lot of articles of impeachment. is this the smartest way forward here? >> i will leave that up to the house. i think the basic point is this. he has committed so many breaks of his oath to the constitution. i think it gets confusing. every time you see a new instance of criminality,

corruption. keeping it simple, letting it be clear to the american people. that's why this is a smoking gun, david. because it is so clear that i think everybody in america, including all the trump supporters, have got to say this is an attack on the constitution. this is absolutely corrupt. this is the kind of thing which no president should ever do. if the person people make that judgment, the republican senators cannot withstand the will of the american people. that's why i have been pushing. we believe in the grassroots, the judgment of the american people. that's what we really want to see. >> a couple questions on your campaign. jay inslee was here last week, the climate guy. he is happy he is out of the race. now the candidates are talking about climate change, i think we could call you the impeachment guy. this was central to you and your campaign, who you are before the

campaign began. why not call it quits? you're not high up in the polling. can you go away satisfied that you have made an impact just by where we are now in terms of this inquiry? >> absolutely not, david. in terms of climate, i am the most aggressive person on climate by far. i say i declare climate on day one. i would make it the number one priority of my foreign policy. what i'm running on is something much broader than impeachment. we have a broken government in washington, d.c. and we need to take it back and get back to government by and for the people. impeachment is just an example, if we go to the grassroots where i have lived the last 10 years, organizing people around the country, we can take back government. the will of the american people

dragging these washington insiders to the idea that we still stand for what's right and wrong in the united states of america. this campaign is just starting. an impeachment is just an example of what happened when the american people get up on their behind legs and say enough. >> always good to talk to you. tom steyer, 2020 candidate for the democratic nomination for president joining us from reena. >> thanks, david. when we come back, is the president of the united states a national security threat? reality is setting in as hundreds of officials sounding the alarm over the call with his eye rain yann counterpart. more on that when we come back. . more on that when we come back

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the coverup is very serious. but i don't want to lose site of that fundamental breach of the president's oath of office, the duty to defend our country, our constitution. and here the president is once again not just inviting but coercing a foreign nation to get involved to try to help him in yet another presidential election. so to me that is the most serious set of offenses. >> this is "up". i'm david gura. adam schiff moments ago on "meet the press" with chuck todd. group of 300 experts signed a letter by national security action this week saying, quote, having worked across administrations of both parties to uphold and advance those national interests we consider the president's actions to be a profound national security concern.

if we fail to speak up and act, it will be on offer to those who can most effectively fulfill the president's personal prerogatives. it comes after the director of national intelligence saying the whistle-blower, quote, did the right thing. join us is larry pfeiffer, former chief of staff and director of cia. larry, thank you very much for being here. i want you to react to what we heard from the chair of the intelligence committee. the coverup is one thing, but there are bigger issues at play here. your reaction to what he said? >> definitely significant issues at play here. we have the president of the united states using his powers to his own personal benefit to the campaign. not just an intelligence professional. that worries me. . >> i know you have a question on this point. thinking about the way the president sees himself in the intelligence community? >> acting dni maguire said this

really interesting thing. i really have this question for you and all other people. he said the is not a member of the united states intelligence community and that's why he didn't consider it in his purview to take it straight, the whistle-blower's report straight to congress. is that true? is the president really exempt from oversight of the intelligence committee? does he belong to the intelligence committee? >> it's a fascinating question that i'm sure if you got 100 lawyers in a room, you might have 100 different opinions. as president, he's the elected officials that overseas all aspects of government so he is not part of any aspect of deposit. but that being said, you know, these standards, rules, regulations, laws have been written to protect our capabilities. and it has an incredible

corrosive effect across our intelligence community when our number one customer and our leader is violating those standards. >> larry, you were senior director of the white house situation room. you worked in the cia, as i said. i want to get a sense of the abnormality of the way things were compartmentalized. the meeting that took place in the oval office with kislyak and lavrov. the president of ukraine was compartmentalized. how out of the normal is it what happened in the trump administration? >> very unusual given the nature of the materials that they seem to be wanting to put into this compartmented database. it is intended to be used for information of the most sensitive nature with regards to our covert action plans, reconnaissance programs.

there are instances where material about diplomatic issues are compartmented there. the example, during my time in the white house where the most early stages that senator kerry was having with the sultan of amman. >> jump in if you would. >> so far, larry, we have one anonymous whistle-blower who worked in this field, in the intelligence field. in looking at what we see in terms of how information might have been mishandled and who might know about conversations that they want to keep hidden, if indeed a conversation between the russians and the white house in which trump said i'm not concerned about your ain bg ttt he is not worried about 2016, how big is the universe of people who would know about these conversations and who would maybe also know that they

were being shoved into this, let's just call it a secret server to keep it from getting into a wider audience because they are trying to cover up the president perhaps giving aid and comfort to the enemy? >> so i guess what i would offer there is in normal circumstances, when the president has telephone conversations or has meetings that are not of the most sensitive nature, they are not talking about the sensitive diplomatic initiatives, the preparatory work ahead of time, talking points would have been developed and reviewed by a handful of individuals. there would be people in the room. in the case of a phone call, people in "the situation room" monitoring the call. not just the duty officers tribe transcribing the call. there would be a production chain for the development of that document, produced by the

beginning of the situation room, going over to the director responsible for the call, up to the national security adviser's office, working its way to an executive secretary. at least low to mid- -- i would say low double figures in terms of individuals. >> the reason i ask, if there is going to be an investigation, the call with the russians or msb of saudi arabia you to think about who they want to talk to, who they can bring in. national security adviser will know about all of this. h.r. mcmaster would know whether trump told them he wasn't concerned. is that a fair assumption? larry? >> if he was in the room, i sure would imagine he would know what was going on. indications are that he was in the room for that conversation. so, yeah, i would have to agree with you. >> i should say he should get a note.

>> note from the principal. >> larry, thank you very much for your time. appreciate it. >> you bet. up next, national security concerns to ethics violations, what legal experts are asking, did president trump request a thing of value from a foreign power? the person to field that question joins us just after the break. question joins us just afe break. company. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you.

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ask your doctor about trulicity. this is "up." i'm david gura. as the fervor grows, so do questions about ethics. have increased in part due to a man we've talked about every block of this hour, rudy giuliani. rudy giuliani's attempts to dig up dirt on former vice president joe biden by enlisting ukraine officials could run afoul of a number of ethical and election laws. the president's personal attorney went on "this week" on abc news this morning to say if trump wanted to testify, he will. >> i have to be guided by my client, frankly. i'm a lawyer. it's his privilege, not mine. if he decides that he wants me to testify, of course i'll testify, even though i think adam schiff is an illegitimate chairman. he has already pre-judged the case. if we want fairness here, we've got to put somebody in charge of that committee who has an open

mind. not someone who wants to hang the president, who said i have evidence of russian collusion. adam, where's the evidence? >> where's the evidence, he asks. if us now, adam nodi. thank you very much for being here. i've looked at the loc slip opinion, whether or not this was of urgent concern. there's this controversy about this being a thing of value at the heart of all of this. help us understand how that affects this entire case. that part of election law affects this case. >> sure. so it's illegal to ask any foreign national to provide anything of value or spend any money to influence a u.s. election. and so the question in this situation, as was the case in the russia investigation, is whether the president or others have asked foreign nationals to provide something of value to influence an election. >> and do you see it here? as you look at what we have been able to see so far, the redacted portions of the complaint and the record of the phone call that took place, to your eyes,

as somebody who is steeped in all of this, who has worked in this world, do you see that thing of value? >> yeah, it's not a close call. the president asked the ukrainian government to spend its resources to provide information that would be helpful to the president's re-election campaign. there was no other possible justification for it. there is obviously a thing of value, which is that expenditure of resources, and whatever it produced, and it was clearly to influence the election and in connection with the election. >> where do we go from here? we follow with interest what's happening among the federal election commission at this point. you had one commissioner, the chairman of that commission issuing essentially a draft memo via twitter, because she was blocked by a republican counterpart from doing it in an official way. how dysfunctional is it and how is it going to slow or block the prosecution or the investigation of something like that? >> well, the federal election commission is a completely non-functional law enforcement agency. it has not been enforcing the law for ten years or more. and would be completely unable and unqualified to handle this

matter. fortunately, the fec only has jurisdiction over civil violations of campaign finance law. the department of justice enforces criminal violations. and of course, in this particular matter, it's not being left up to the department of justice, congress is involved, as well. >> we can leave it there, on that optimistic note. thanks. my panel here in new york. david cornyn, leah wright, on this rudy giuliani hour of "up." up next, joy reid talking to 2020 contenders beto o'rourke and kamala harris, that is in the next hour on "a.m. joy" right here on msnbc. right here on msnbc. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from anyone else.

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say no to juul, no to big tobacco, no to prop c. that does it for me today. thank you very much for watching. "a.m. joy" with joy reid starts right now. >> i don't care who you're for in the democratic primary or whether you're a republican. when the president of the united states, who has taken an oath to protect and defend the constitution uses his position to, in effect, extort a foreign government for his own political purposes, i think that is very much what the founders worried about, in high crimes and misdemeanors. >> good morning and welcome to "a.m. joy." well, when you're a president facing impeachment for abusing your power, what do you do? well, if you're donald trump, you go back to the classics.

[ chanting: lock her up ] >> donald trump spent his entire campaign threatening to imprison his 2016 political rival. banana republic style. and true to form, he has spent his entire presidency strong arming federal agencies to try to make that happen. and just last night, "the washington post" published this report. based on documents it received. you see that headline? state department intensifies email probe of hillary clinton's former aids. yes, this is an actual headline for a story published last night. not during the 2016 election or when secretary clinton left the state department way back in 2013. donald trump is still attacking hillary clinton, and using the power of the federal government to do it. meanwhile, donald trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, is still melting down on national television over the real crisis facing the country. not her