>> donald trump spent his entire campaign threatening to imprison his 2016 political rival. banana republic style. and true to form, he has spent his entire presidency strong arming federal agencies to try to make that happen. and just last night, "the washington post" published this report. based on documents it received. you see that headline? state department intensifies email probe of hillary clinton's former aids. yes, this is an actual headline for a story published last night. not during the 2016 election or when secretary clinton left the state department way back in 2013. donald trump is still attacking hillary clinton, and using the power of the federal government to do it. meanwhile, donald trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, is still melting down on national television over the real crisis facing the country. not her e-mails, his corruption and danger to our national

security. and rudy is throwing everyone under the bus. >> this was given to me -- i wasn't looking for it. it was given to me by a very legitimate american investigator, lawyer, who had these very serious allegations that ukrainian officials were trying to get to the fbi and felt there was something wrong with the fbi and the doj, because they weren't listening to them for a year. >> kurt volcker set up the meeting -- >> i assume the secretary knew. and when i spoke to the secretary afterward, he told me he had some knowledge of it. >> he asked you a question, where's bill barr on this? >> well, i put all the evidence out in public. >> that's the answer to this question? >> it's all out there. i'm not pressuring anybody. >> reporter: well, that's a great question. where is bill barr on this? well, a person familiar with his thinking told the associated press that barr was, quote, surprised and angry to learn that trump had lumped him in with giuliani on that call with the ukrainian president. joining me now, democratic congresswoman, madeleine dean of

pennsylvania. she's a member of the judiciary committee, one of the six house committees conducting the impeachment inquiry. and congresswoman, thank you for being here. i'm going to start with that question about william barr. in your view, is he sufficiently implicated by the whistle-blower in this scheme to both try and cook up an investigation that exonerates russia for attacking our election and in trying to dig up dirt on former vice president biden? >> well, good morning, joy, thank you for having me on. and i just want to remind everybody that we're in such grave water. last week when the speaker announced the formal impeachment inquiry, our caucus was quite somber. this is a solemn, somber time, and the people that you're talking about, whether it's rudy giuliani or you're reporting now and the whistle-blower's implication of attorney general barr, these are men who have no credibility, sadly. they're in important positions. one within the administration, one not within the

administration. but their credibility is shot, frankly. and so it's very grave time for this country. when we see a president who actually is willing to and engaged in a shakedown of a foreign leader for his own political gain, putting national security at risk, the times couldn't be more serious. >> and i think to your very point, the new polling that's out this morning shows that 64%, this is an abc news ipsos poll shows that shows 64% of americans believe that trump's encouragement of a foreign leader to investigate his political rival and his family is a years problem. the saddest part of this poll is only 17% are actually surprised. let's talk about some of the investigations that are taking place in congress right now. two committees of the six that are investigating all of these actions are looking to depose mike pompeo and five other current and former state department officials, including the former ambassador to ukraine, who was pulled in a

very strange sort of manner, and a deputy assistant secretary of state. from your point of view, what more would you need to learn about what happened vis-a-vis ukraine and frankly russia, in order to feel that not just an impeachment inquiry, but the actual impeachment of donald trump is in order. >> what i believe chairman adam schiff is looking for, so finding out through the whistle-blower and those who corroborate the story of the ukraine debacle, the actual facts. if you've read that complaint, it's a nine-page complaint, it's very well-crafted. it's very serious. but what would be helpful, and i'm sure that mr. schiff is on his way to doing this, is interviewing the whistle-blower and those who supported the information about the call. and also, those who know about the cover-up of the call. remember what's at stake here with the state department involved. this is a question of how we treat foreign policy. how we treat foreign leaders.

do we use them to create a global peace and stability for, consider the country of ukraine and the instability that is there because of the foe that has invaded their country, russia. or do we use it as a transaction? it seems to me this president is quite transactional. and his foreign policy is based on his personal gain. >> i want to read you -- well, i won't even read through the story, because we don't have a ton of time. but there's new reporting in "the washington post" that the trump administration is back to investigating hillary clinton and her e-mails. donald trump used "lock her up" as a catchphrase during his run for president. apparently, the state department began contacting former officials in the state department 18 months ago, after trump's election, and then seemed to drop the effort to try and investigate her again, though she was cleared by the justice department under fbi director jim comey, picking it up again in august. that's significant, because it does appear that this push to go

back to investigating senator clinton coincides with these attempts to get dirt on joe biden. you know, it would look to the outside, looking in, as if donald trump is now trying to use this state department investigation to try and create sort of legal liability for the former secretary of state and first lady. what do you make of that, as a member of congress? you said on judiciary, what might congress do about that? >> well, we'll investigate it, but this is no different than what this president has been doing, whether it was while he was campaigning or since he's been sworn in to uphold an oath of office that he clearly is in violation of, multiple times. it's a deflection. you see both the president and rudy giuliani in a mad spin, tried to now look backwards again at what their perceived -- who their perceived foes were. it's a mad deflection. it will not take us off-course, to do our constitutional duty of overnight, and bring forth and

craft articles of impeachment that are appropriate. that the american public can understand. they understand right from wrong. and they will not be fooled by some shiny object, a false shiny object somewhere else that the president or giuliani throws up. i was reminded of a quote long ago, a greek philosopher said, a man's character is his fate. i think we're seeing that play out very grievously with this president. >> congresswoman madeleine dean, congresswoman of pennsylvania, thank you very much. really appreciate your time this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. joining me now is neal katyal, nbc contributor and former acting solicitor general of the united states. neal, thank you so much for being here this morning. >> thank you, joy. >> i want to go back and i want to actually read you a little bit of this "washington post" report that appears right at the top, above the fold, in the paper, at least online this morning. it says as many as 130 officials from the state department have been contacted in recent weeks by state department investigators, a list that includes senior officials who reported directly to former secretary clinton as well as

others in lower-level jobs whose e-mails were at some point relayed to her inbox, said current and former state department officials. those targeted were notified that e-mails they sent years ago have been retroactively classified and now constitute potential security violations, according to letters reviewed by "the washington post." a little bit more, "state department investigators began contacting the former officials about 18 months ago, after donald trump's election, and they seemed to drop the effort before picking it up in august, officials said. senior state department officials said they were following standard protocol in an investigation that began during the latter days of the obama administration nearing completion." a couple of things that raised my alarms as an outside person looking in and as a layperson, it's the same state department where rudy giuliani was encouraged to try to dig up dirt on the former vice president of the united states. and this reads like an attempt of retribution against hillary clinton, which those of us who

have family members who grew up in countries like the congo, where you run against the president, you get -- and that person gets elected, then you end up in jail, that is usually not the way it happens in the united states. your thoughts? >> oh, man, joy. i mean, there's so much wrong with this story, i don't even know where to begin. the first thing is is, you know, you would hope that trump would have had a newer, fresher playbook than going back to "but, her e-mails." but he doesn't. we'll probably hear the muslim ban tomorrow and birthright citizenship should be ended on tuesday and the same list of distractions. but the story cannot hide from the fundamental thing that's happened last week, because of this brave whistle-blower. because what this whistle-blower discovered and told to the american people, ultimately, in the report that came out on thursday, is that the president, as president, not as a private citizen during a campaign or something else, he went and asked a foreign power for help to get dirt on his political

rival. there is no form of comparability, there is no type of distraction, no email servers, nothing will come close to this. because what this is, what the whistle-blower is saying, it is exactly what our founders 200 years warned about. there are entire federalist papers about this. the idea that a foreign government would have influence in our electoral system. that's the kind of height of abuse of power. and there will be, you know, he can try all he wants with this and that and look over here, look over there. none of it's going to work. that's why i think, what representative dean, what she said was exactly right. >> well, the one challenge that i would -- you know, throw at you, neal, on that, is that donald trump doesn't simply have, you know, sort of a retributive character or a mal-character, just in the way that he behaves and the way that he campaigns. he also has the power of the federal government, and he has people who are willing to corrupt their own offices to do his bidding. so the persons of mr. pompeo and

mr. barr, mike pompeo can certainly allow within the state department a vicious investigation of a private citizen, which could wind up being then used by william barr, who essentially is behaving as donald trump's roy cohn. what's to stop mr. barr from, to please donald trump, to go ahead and prosecuting former secretary clinton, even if it's for nothing? what's to stop william barr from following through on what the whistle-blower said that he and mr. giuliani were going to work together to find a way to dig up some dirt on the family member of another private citizen, the son of the former vice president. i mean, do you trust these people, mr. pompeo, mr. barr, not to use their power to attack private citizens? >> okay, so the statute of limitations on all of this email stuff is five years. so we're way passed it. so i don't think that the criminal pieces of this can be resuscitated. but i take the spirit of your question, which is the trump administration and this president corrodes on downward.

and you know, really undermines the independence of those at the state department, at the justice department, in places like that. and certainly, there are tools that they can do to try to exact retribution, to the president's political enemies. i do think this is different, joy, than the past, though. because here, we've got a snapshot of the president abusing his powers as president. and for him to direct or for his minions to go out and use presidential or executive branch powers to further and try and entrench the president and hide the truth from the american peop people, i think will just yet be another article of impeachment, if need be. so my hope is that everyone, you know, in the cabinet, recognizes that, at this point, these allegations are so serious, there's got to be a real investigation. let's see what happens at the end of that real investigation. and if it is with the whistle-blower's reports are corroborated, then i don't think

that, you know, whatever retribution they have is ultimately even going to work. because, you know, those are small-fry offenses compared to this mi this. this is the mother lode offense. this is using as president the foreign policy of the united states to advance your own personal ends. that's the quintessential definition of what is an impeachable offense? >> and indeed, it is helpful, probably for some folks in the trump administration to recall that one of the articles against richard nixon and one of the accusations was that he attempted to use things like the irs to go after his political enemies. so using the state department and the department of justice would be the same thing. and to your point, could be an additional impeachable offense. neal katyal, always great to talk to you. thank you. coming up, the first presidential democratic candidate to call for trump's resignation. beto o'rourke joins me next. r t resignation. beto o'rourke joins me next. (classical music playing throughout)

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this moment will test our democracy and determine our future forever. beyond a shadow of a doubt, we now know that the president must be impeached. the best possible path, especially if you're concerned about a country that's never been more divided, perhaps more highly polarized every day, is for this president to resign. >> 2020 presidential accompanca

beto o'rourke has been calling for donald trump's impeachment long before the whistle-blower complaint came out. but this week, he became the first candidate to call on trump to resign from office. joining me now is 2020 presidential candidate and congressman beto o'rourke. thank you very much for being here. good morning. >> good morning, good morning. >> so you have called on donald trump to resign. is this specifically in your view over the national security threat presented by what the whistle-blower revealed vis-a-vis his call to the president of ukraine? >> this is about the national interest, about making sure that a country that has never been more divided is able to come back together again and to heal. it's about knowing the facts now beyond a shadow of a doubt. we have the reconstructed transcript or call notes from the call between president trump and president zelensky of ukraine, from july. we have the whistle-blower's accounts. we have the understanding that there are many around the president in the white house who are deeply concerned, concerned

enough to try to hide the transcripts of the call. but also concerned enough to share that information with the whistle-blower. thinking about the precedent of president nixon. and in 1974, republican senators and those closest to him making the case that impeachment was a certainty. it was likely that he would be convicted in the senate. and for his best interests and the interests of the country, the right thing for him to do was to step down. in signhindsight, that was the decision for america. looking forward, the best thing that we can do is for donald trump to step down. i don't expect him to make that decision of his own accord. that's why i think as a country, we need to call on those who are closest to him, who still have some faith in this country and want to do the right thing for america to help him to make that decision. >> we know in the case of president richard nixon, his resignation was brought on by republican members of congress and republican senators going to him and saying, you have lost support, you are going to lose,

if you get impeached, you will be convicted, step down for the good of the country. now, we know that richard nixon had a far greater knowledge of history and i would daresay, even with all of his crimes, sort of better sense of the national interest when it came to what the president's job is, so he did step down for his own dignity, et cetera. you know some republicans pretty well. you know congressman will hurd who is stepping down, who is a republican from nearby you in texas. are there any republicans, mr. hurd or anyone else who you can think of that would actually go to donald trump and say such a thing to him? >> i believe, perhaps, more in the constituents of these republican senators and republican members of congress, perhaps than i do in them. and their constituents, i hope, i believe, will provide the public pressure that will ultimately form the political will to cause them to do the right thing. as more americans understand what this president has done in their name, to undermine the genius of this country, what

distinguishes us and sets us apart from the rest of the world, which is that we can freely, democratically, choose those who will represent us, participate in our elections, and guide the course of our country, that that has been so badly undermined by president trump, who's using this position of public trust, which is not his. it was granted to him temporarily by the american people, to call on a foreign power to involve themselves in our election, to dig up dirt on a potential political rival. there must be consequence or this will set a new precedent that some people really are above the law in this country. so i believe in my fellow americans. that they're going to ask their representatives, their senators, and yes, joy, to answer your question, i do think there are republicans who will listen to their constituents, know that their re-election is on the line if they don't do the right thing. and perhaps even more important than that, their legacy, the way that history will judge them in this defining, deciding moment of truth, much like barry goldwater in 1974, traveling to

the white house to talk to president nixon, there is that republican senator or senators who will do the right thing right now. and i think they're going to be forced to do that by their constituents. >> now, there are a lot of people who say that if you are not the nominee of the democratic party for president, that they would love to see you challenge senator cornyn in your state of texas. do you think senator cornyn would be somebody who would have the character to go to donald trump and tell him that it's time for him to resign? >> as one of his constituents here in el paso, texas, i call on senator cornyn to put this country ahead of his party, this country ahead of his loyalty to the president, this country and the future of our democracy ahead of his next election. to do the right thing, while there is still time to do the right thing for this country. whether you're a republican, a democrat, an independent, whether you care about politics at all, if you love this country, you want to see us rise to the challenge right now and make sure that we set the precedent that everyone will be

accountable to the law, that there will be justice at the end of the day, and you cannot have a lawless president, who commits crimes with complete impudenity. that's what we have in this country right now. so, yes, i'm calling on everyone in a position of public trust who has a chance to do something to do it while there's still time. >> and you know, and i recognize, of course, and i hope you'll take this question in the spirit that it's given, because obviously your running to be president of the united states, not to be a united states senator, but because senator cornyn would be one of the votes, and if there's tan expedited impeachment, it could potentially happening this year. and senator cornyn would then be on the line to decide how he's going to vote when presented with all the facts and evidence, as you said, in an issue of national security. let's say that he votes to absolve this president of the united states. what would you then do about that? would you then be willing to say, okay, you voted to save the president from impeachment given all the facts that we all know, would you then say, i'm going to run against you for this seat?

>> no. i'm running for president. i want to be the leader that this country so badly needs and is so sorely lacking at this moment. i want to make sure that we heal this very divided country, nah we operate not in fear and lies, but in courage and confidence and with an ethics that we can all be proud of. i want to make sure that this country rises to the challenge before us right now. and i want to bring everyone in, regardless of the differences and the divisions that exist right now. that's what i'm focused on. and by the way, there's some extraordinary people who are running for senate in texas right now, including amanda edwards and christina ramirez and m.j. hager, just to mention three extraordinary women, any one of whom will be able to defeat john cornyn and any one of whom will make an excellent u.s. senator. and lastly, joy, if i am the nominee, not only can i win the 38 electoral college votes in texas, which will firmly and finally put donald trump away, if he's on the ballot in

november 2020, i could also help whoever the nominee is against john cornyn to ensure that they are successful in that race as well. it's going to help us all up and down the ballot, from president to senator to every office below. this is the way that we bring this country together. this is the way that we defeat donald trump. this is the way that we win elections through texas in this country. >> let's go back to donald trump and his administration. we know that in the case of richard nixon, which is the closest sort of analog that we have to the situation that we have now, even though the watergate break-in, there was an american operation, there were no foreign entities involved. i think that's a very important difference between this and then. but in that case, there were also crimes committed by the vice president of the united states, and spiro agnew wound up resigning his office as well. mike pence took the meeting rather than donald trump. went to poland instead of donald trump. he's been intimately involved in everything that donald trump has done, and if not involved, he has i think a lot of people

would say have been quite sycophantic towards donald trump and praised him no matter what he has done. would, in your view, vice president mike pence be equally culpable in whatever donald trump has done? and so if that is impeachable, what would you say about mike pence? should he remain in his office? >> yeah. i think that's a fair question. and i think we need to make sure that there is a deliberate investigation to bring forward all of the facts, make sure that members of congress are operating with the truth, and that that is shared with the american people. but your question also poses another one, this is, those around donald trump, do you want to go down with this ship? there is no limit on the number of people who can come forward to share information, who are eligible under the whistle-blower statute to share information and make sure that we preserve this democracy and strengthen it going forward, or perhaps lose it forever if they fail to come forward. so i'm convinced that there are enough people of good character

who want to do the right thing, who are going to understand that their loyalty to america is more important and greater than their loyalty to the president. and they should come forward right now. and share with the committees of jurisdiction in the house of representatives, the relevant information, the data, the facts to fill in any of the gaps that we have right now, especially because we know that the white house and president trump are trying to cover up information and the facts. they have a history of obstructing justice, not just now, but in the investigation into what happened in 2016, trying to confound the mueller investigation, as bob mueller pointed out. he said, lying to investigators, obstructing justice, strikes at the very heart of our ability to maintain this democracy. that's what president trump is doing. so we are calling on those around him who want to do the right thing. now is the moment to do it. >> let me play what you what former secretary of state hillary clinton had to say about donald trump, visa syr-a-vis th

ukraine issue. take a listen. >> he has turned american diplomacy into a cheap extortion racket. he has denigrated, and let's be honest, stabbed in the back, the career foreign service officers who served bravely and selflessly, no matter the politics of the administration that they are working under. >> we now know, congressman, that in august, a month -- the following month after this now-infamous phone call to the president of ukraine, the state department investigators began to ramp up a reinvestigation of secretary clinton. for this combination of what secretary clinton calls exextortion, what has been called a shakedown by other democratic members, and then the possibility that the administration is now also trying to use their power to go after a private citizen who is vocally critical of them, do you think that those are additional articles that should be added to impeachment articles, should donald trump be impeached by the

house? >> i think it's something that the house should look at. this president's pursuit of his political rivals, regardless of whether they pose any challenge or threat to this country. in fact, trying to rewrite the laws after the fact, to try to classify information that wasn't classified at the time, to be able to pursue and perhaps chill those who have been critical of the president. his rallies where they demand to lock her up, or in the case of women of color elected to the u.s. house of representatives, to send her back, this is something that might have made sense in another time, in another country, in a dictatorship, not in this democracy, not in the united states of america. so, yes, this is a very real challenge to this country. and you know that what the president is doing when it comes to secretary clinton and those around him, what the president is trying to do with former vice president biden is to distract from president trump's crimes,

from his lying to investigators, from the need for him to be held accountable. and for justice to be brought to bear on him. we cannot be distracted in the pursuit of justice. so that's up to the house members to make sure that they are following these leads, presenting the facts, and then moving forward deliberately and decisively so that we can save this country and save our democracy. >> you're now one of a majority of those who are running for president who are calling on impeachment. we're just going to put the list up there. it is a majority of those of you who are running. but we also know that there are a lot of democratic sort of operatives sort of out there in the backyard who are afraid of impeachment. they worry that impeachment will muddle the message of the democratic party of the presidential candidates, like yourself and make it more difficult to win a state like texas, that at least at the moment is a red state. what do you say to those who are nervous about impeachment, just as a political matter? >> you know what, i read a comment that nancy pelosi made in austin at "the texas tribune"

fest last night. i've never been more proud of her. she was asked about the political ramifications of impeachment, and she said something to the effect of, who cares? our responsibility right now is to the constitution, to this country, to the generations of the future who are counting on us, the people of 2019, to do the right thing while we still have time, to do the right thing. put all other considerations aside. have no fear. be confident, be courageous, do the right thing while we still have time to do the right thing. that's what history calls us to do. that's what this country calls us to do. that's what this democracy calls us to do. and i'm so grateful that so many are stepping up to do this. public sentiment, the popular will will follow. just do the right thing while you have time to do the right thing. >> and congressman, i want to hit you with a couple of breaking news stories that just got handed to me by my producers. a couple of things. just moments ago, house intelligence chief chair adam schiff said, just moments ago, that he has actually reached an agreement for the whistle-blower to testify before congress.

i want to first get your reaction to that. >> i think that's great news. and we have the leader that we need in chairman adam schiff right now. so deliberate, so thoughtful, so intelligent. listening to everyone, making sure we get the facts and his ability to get the testimony of the whistle-blower is only going to improve the fidelity of this case and to make sure that we do the right thing, that we are able to achieve justice when it comes to holding the president accountable for his crimes. >> yeah, and i want to ask you one more thing. and tom bossert, who is a former aide to donald trump, has now said publicly that the crowdstrike dnc ukraine story, is completely false and has no validity. he says that he and others told trump that, but that rudy giuliani continues to push it. what do you make of the fact that donald trump continues to believe a conspiracy theory that

essentially exonerates russia in the attack on our election, because he's being told it by people like rudy giuliani, who is ostensibly his lawyer? >> trump is a master of distraction. and that's what he's trying to do with this investigation in ukraine around hillary clinton's e-mails or the 2016 election. he's trying to distract us from the fact that he said in broad daylight, "russia, if you're listening, i hope you can find hillary clinton's e-mails," and that within hours russian agents began to look for hillary clinton's e-mails. that on that stage when he was president in finland, standing next to vladimir putin, he defended putin instead of our intelligence community. that he lied to investigators. that he pressured others around him to lie to investigators. that he has very clearly committed these crimes. he would want you to think about something else, look the other way. we must stay focused if we're going to save this country and preserve our democracy. >> beto o'rourke, candidate for

president 2020, thank you so much. really appreciate your time this morning. >> thank you, joy. >> thank you. all right, coming up, we will talk impeachment and some of these new breaking news stories with america's most foremost experts on impeachment. this is going to be good. do not leave. professor lawrence tribe joins me next. leave professor lawrence tribe joins me next. if you're 65 or older, even if you're healthy, you may be at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia - a potentially serious bacterial lung disease that can disrupt your life for weeks. in severe cases, pneumococcal pneumonia can put you in the hospital. it can hit quickly, without warning, making you miss out on what matters most. just one dose of the prevnar 13® vaccine can help protect you from pneumococcal pneumonia. it's not a yearly shot. prevnar 13® is approved for adults to help prevent infections from 13 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. don't get prevnar 13® if you have had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients. adults with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine.

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passing through... "hey mom," "can we get fro-yo?", >>"yeah, fro-yo." "yes." the all-new 2020 ford explorer st. with intelligent 4wd and terrain management system. it's the greatest exploration vehicle of all time. welcome to "a.m. joy." it's one of those mornings and we are watching a ton of news. new developments in the fallout around the latest big departure from the white house. >> do you think we would tolerate this if this was children coming from canada or from eastern europe? >> i think things will be very different. >> how do democrats navigate the impending mess before them in the disagreements over this? nts? once again, i want to remind you of the breaking news we just got from the sunday shows.

house intel chair adam schiff just said moments ago that he has reached an agreement for the whistle-blower to testify before congress. and also new this morning, former trump aide tom bossert has said the crowd strike dnc ukraine conspiracy theory story is completely false and has no validity. he says that he and others have told trump that, but that rudy giuliani continues to push it. and joining me now is lawrence tribe, a professor of constitutional law at harvard and the author of "to end a presidency: the power of impeachment." and i got a little inside information that you might not know a little bit about adam schiff's legal acumen, professor tribe. you taught him. he was one of your students. >> i am proud to say that he was one of my very best students and i've known him for years and worked closely with him. he is the perfect person, calmly, deliberately, and speedily to organize the factual

inquiry. it's not surprising to me that he has reached this agreement with the whistle-blower to testify. i don't yet know whether it's going to be in public or in private, but either way, the whistle-blower clearly is a profile in courage. i think it's also encouraging that tom bossert has come forward and said that the president lives in a web of conspiracy theories. i think that the leaking ship is going to start just sprouting water from every hole. and i think it's sinking. i very much agree with beto o'rourke that this is a moment of truth. a moment of which that those people whose loyalty is to the constitution and the country and whose liberty we enjoy under law will come forward and expose this president. but really, he's exposed himself. whatever the whistle-blower says is just icing on the cake. the president has publicly

confessed to trying to get a foreign leader to help him get re-elected. not just with oppo research, but by going after one of his primary opponents. and he's doing that as president of the united states. he's using the power that he has in foreign policy and military affairs, not to benefit the country, but get re-elected. as some have said, and i think neal katyal said it, that's the quintessential impeachable offense. it's a violation of the president's oath. it proves that every additional day he is in office is a day that our national security is under threat. we cannot afford to have him remain. >> and the only analog that we really have for an impeachment that is similar to this, because i think a lot of people have sort of clashed the clinton

impeachment as purely political, whereas the nixon impeachment has a lot of similarities. you had nixon using the irs and other agencies to try to go after his political enemies. we now see that potentially donald trump, his state department attempted to go back after hillary clinton again, but on this issue that mr. bossert puts forward, donald trump's belief, whether it's his real belief or him just saying it to the leader of ukraine, that really the russia did not attack our election, that somehow, in a conspiracy, the democrats simply lost these e-mails to an employee who was then killed. it was this conspiracy theory, the seth rich conspiracy is what this comes from. and the idea that he wanted a foreign government to actually make that seem valid, which would only help russia, do you think that in and of itself then becomes a potential impeachable offense? that he was trying to essentially exonerate our biggest adversary, russia, on the attack on the election that got him into the white house? >> well, we have such a cornucopia of impeachable

offenses. that among them, but it's important to focus, i think that we have to rely on adam schiff and his committee to dig out all the facts with subpoenas, if necessary, that we don't allow to get dragged out. and then we have to rely on jerry nadler and his committee to build the intellectual infrastructure and organize it all into an impeachment report. so that i don't want to judge right now before all the facts come out how much should be included, how much of the kitchen sink, basically, should be put into this mix. that, i think, has to be left to the nadler committee, to the judiciary committee, where the articles of impeachment will be drafted and then presented to the full house. but i think it's now clear that it's not a matter of whether this president will be kbeech impeached, but when. and i think the question of when will depend in part on how quickly everything can be pulled together and whether there are

members of the house and senate who will have the courage to come to the president and say, mr. president, the jig is up. you may not care about your place in history, but if you have any concern for this country, you have to step aside. and if he doesn't, i am not confident, as some people are, that the senate will simply of disregard all of the facts. >> interesting. >> people who have talked to individual senators say that there are between 20 and 35, who if it were a secret ballot, would vote to get rid of this guy now. it won't be a secret ballot, but hopefully some of them will be patriots and not simply interested in their own re-election and their constituents may give them a signal that they may not be re-elected if they go along with this dangerous criminal in public office. >> let's talk about that. i want to talk about the process first. i'm going to skip the house part just for now and focus on the

senate. number one, you're saying that it cannot be a secret ballot. we know that in the senate, they have voice votes, where they simply voice vote by majority rule. that can't be done with impeachment? >> well, with impeachment, the rules of the senate require that each individual senator vote the way a juror would, but those rules can be changed by a majority, and the majority leader is in charge. so i wouldn't assume anything about what the rules of the senate are going to be. we saw how mcconnell basically paid no attention to merrick garland. he's capable, in this case, too, of trying to engineer a massive cover-up. but so far he has said that he will follow those rules. and if he does, then i think individual senators will have to stand up and be counted. and even if they do not convict this president, the president will go down in history and will

have to enter the 2020 election with an enormous eye on his forehead. only the third president in the united states history to be actually impeached, and impeached this time for violating his oath and the national security, by using foreign policy and military policy to benefit his re-election. >> yep. >> he will therefore be ignominiously defeated if he is not removed by the senate. >> and i misspoke, i meant by unanimous consent. because we did see that mitch mcconnell allowed a vote, and what unanimous consent means, if no one objects, whatever the measure is simply passes. they did that with a unanimous consent decry that the entire whistle-blower complaint be released. >> correct. >> really quickly, before i let you go, to go back to the house for a moment, to reexplain to folks, what's happening now in

the inquiry, what is the difference between that inquiry and actual impeachment and how do you proceed from one to the other? >> well, impeachment is a thing. when he is finally impeached, it is a vote that then either can go to the senate for a trial or can be a conclusion by the house itself, saying, we find that the president is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors. but that end result, whatever form it takes, has to be proceeded by an impeachment proceeding, an impeachment inquiry. that's what we're engaged in now. a formal impeachment inquiry and it is apparently going to be organized primarily as a fact-finding matter, under adam schiff's committee, and then the conclusions from that committee and the others will presumably be gathered by the judiciary committee, which will draft articles of impeachment, present them for a vote on the floor. where there will be debate and a vote, and i hope it will be

before the end of this year. >> we shall see. well, professor lawrence tribe, it's always great to talk to you. i get to live my dream of taking a class with you wherever i have you on the show, as does the audience. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. really appreciate it. >> thanks, joy. more "a.m. joy" after the break. nks, joy more "a.m. joy" after the break. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones, relieves depression, restores heart rhythms, helps you back from strokes, and keeps you healthy your whole life. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. (classical music playing throughout)

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very soon. it will depend probably more on how quickly the director national intelligence can complete the process for the whistleblower's lawyer. we ready to hear from the whistleblower and make sure acting director does not delay the process. >> the breaking news on sunday could shake things up in the impeachment inquiry facing donald trump. adam schiff said moments ago that he reached an agreement for the whistleblower to testify before congress. also, this morning, former trump's homeland security adviser, tom bosser says the crowd strike dnc ukraine story is false and had no validity.

rudy giuliani continues to push the story. jonath jonathan capehart and author of "the loudest voice in the room," gabriel sherman. and charlie sykes. what may happen if this whistleblower comes forward and testifies and the testimony is damming? >> of course with all that news being disappointed by republicans and the pattern is well set but this does have a different feel. how much more information comes out, how much more information that is frankly in defensible. it is remarkable how quickly

this is all moving and how much information we are getting. and the other obvious question is and gabriel sherman can talk about this is what happened if there starts to be cracks in the conservative media. what happens if fox news begins to breakthrough this alternative reality wall that donald trump is counting on. the odds still remains heavily in favor of republicans stand out in the tall leaves. >> we'll ask that question. here is the thing, donald trump has the conversation we don't know if there is tapes on the foreign side. the russians who have an active war going on attacking france. what if there are tapes. how does fox news to respond to donald trump and his own voice? we got a summary. we don't know the full context

and presumably they took the best summary they could. >> a lot ofwhat if the full voi trump comes out and what does fox news do then? >> that is moment where inside fox has a lot of confusion. a lot of people in the newsroom understands. they understand the gravity of this. the president of the united states using or foreign policy to leverage a foreign country to take out arrival. that's a very simple story. that even a fox audience can understand. what they are looking at now is that basically trying to distract, we see this morning "the washington post" reported the state department is still investigating hillary's e-mails. they're going to say look over here and not over here. this story is so easily understood. i don't know if the reality and distortion can work. >> and going back into history,

it was created by roger ailes in the wake, the idea fox came out of watergate where republicans said never again would they allow the media to define the news cycle and they want their own voice to cloud the water and muddy the water. this is a signal event. this will be a much harder scandal i think for the right wing media. >> let me go to my table here. now what you have is potentially the whistleblower. we don't know if it is going to be closed door testimony or what it will be. whatever happens, it will be information that comes out. we are getting more and more information and where one person becomes brave, more bravery typically follows. we don't know what other conversations with other autocrats or allies are in that server. >> we know they secreted this conversation with the leader of ukraine with the president of ukraine there. we don't know who else.

his favorite autocrats and he had conversations with the prince ben salman of saudi arabia. more and more could come out and then what happened? >> everyone knows that we see a presidency, we see a white house that does not traffic in transparency. i think we all know sort of the corner stone of democracy. we see a white house who after meeting putin and the person, the translator who's not allowed to turn over their notes. putting things on the record, i have been saying for the longest and one of the reasons having impeachment hearing is so important. we can go back to later to see what the person says and that person is under oath. remember when kamala harris questioned bill barr about whether or not he had been asked by anyone in the white house to investigate anyone.

he did not answer the question. alwa all of a sudden he had amnesia, this is the top attorney to the country and his first response was do you have amnesia. hearing are incredible. they can sway public opinion. most importantly it is transparency. that's the foundation of the democracy. >> what you have also is in this boss' story. and he believes them so thoroughly that he's willing to ask the president of an ally who needs our help. and if want this money to help you against russia. i am going to need you to put investigators to corrupt your own system to make the

conspiracy story true. but, it is so simple. it sounds like distortion. >> i think that's why we are sitting here talking about this because it is so easy to understand. gabriel just did it in one sentence. it is so easy to understand. my mother can tell me what's going on. they can tell their friends what's going on. >> yeah. >> this is really easy. the fact that a former trump aid is out there saying there is no validity to any of this that the it is cracking. i wonder how long it is going to take for republicans on capitol hill, people that sworn an oath to protect the constitution to actually protect the constitution. i just watched congressman jim jordan on another network being grilled by this anchor and he

turned himself into all sorts of kinds of pretzel trying to hammer away at these lame talking points. we have to start watching these confirmation hearings a little more carefully. senator harris asked us questions, i was like why is she asking that. >> what does that mean? >> now in the context, now it makes perfect sense and she's on the intelligence committee. when she asks questions, start at what does she know. a lot she knows that she can't talk about. >> ask, imply and infer. >> you do not have that sound of tom bosser. this is mr. bosser on abc this morning. take a look. >> you explained to the president, right? >> i did. it is not only the conspiracy

theory. it is completely debunked. i am frustrated of what he and the team is doing. it sticks in his mind and he hears it over and over again. for clarify, george, it has no validity. the united states government reached its conclusion on attributing to russia of the dnc hack in 2016 before it communicated to the fbi long before the fbi ever knocked on the door ats the dnc. >> charlie sykes, you come from the world of talk radio and you know as well as i do there are these means that can go around in the world of right wing talk that land in the seats of fox news anchor and getting repeated and repeated. the president of the united states -- i found what's interesting by the lawyers that you do see an attempt to pin this on rudy giuliani as the

sole source of donald trump's misbelieves. is that going to work with republicans? are they going to cast rudy giuliani under the bus and walk away and say it is all good now? >> i think they would love to throw rudy giuliani under the bus. they're joined too closely. on the call, president trump is talking about rudy giuliani as my guy and my envoy and personal attorney. that sound byte is a wow moment. the degree of crazy, what is in the president of the united states' head that he's buying one of the conspiracies out there that's debunked over and over again. that in itself is incredibly alarming. to your question, do not under estimate of the power and willingness conservative media fog machine to make this something different. i was on a flight the other day

watching another network, it was experiencing earth 2.0. a complete reality that they'll spin this as something completely different and they think they have their talking point. to jonathan's point, you watch jim jordan this morning on another network, i would think other republicans would have to ask himself. do you want to become jim jordan or clown yourself in this particular way or you want to sound like lindsey graham sound right now. so far it has works for them. as more information comes out, they run the risk of really looking ridiculous. >> you have lindsey graham with his fellow tim scott out doing their thing and being jim jordan. that's the thing. fox news also imprisons elected republicans. they know the people who vote for them watch that all day and so they are do what they are told. >> that's the bold work last

week on vanity fair. fox news is the imaginary line. it is the one thing that donald trump and his political demise has. he knows that. what's important to focus on is the single most powerful person of america right now -- if fox news turns on donald trump, that's the levy that allows to walk unto the republican party. you mention paul ryan earlier. i wanted to point out that it is fascinating he's on the board of fox news' parent company. paul ryan is whispering in murdoch's ear that they have the power to cut-off trump. is former speaker of the house think he has more power to shape the republican party by controlling fox news so when he was in congress. >> he's still whispering. >> he's still behind it. >> he's still hiding.

>> he's not the bravest cat there paul ryan. no offense. >> we heard reporting that have been said. today they're about 30 to 35 senators would vote in favor of impeachment. mainly the way jonathan you are watching washington for us from "the washington post," perhaps the only way donald trump would be convicted in a senate if mitch mcconnell use his power to change the rules to turn the conviction into a by

affirmation. and everybody could be as quiet as paul ryan. >> you know what, mitch mcconnell is, he's an evil genius when it comes to running the senate. i can see what happening and if all of his judicial candidates, those nominees had they all been confirm yet? start looking at the pieces would make it possible for a vote of acclamation by unanimous consent. >> that's a good point. what mitch mcconnell does is keep his eyes on the prize, the conservative judges and the courts. >> he's up for reelection, former trump aid pointed out, trump's approval are double digit higher. >> charlie sykes, that same

point to you. the person that warned him about this is lindsey graham. happeni what's happening is they all have to link arms and go together and the far right judges together, they want what donald trump delivers. if they turn on him now and even if fox turn on him now, they're further right network out there that the right wing base can turn to. does everyone have to go down with the titanic in this case. >> that's likely. mitch mcconnell is not going to turn on donald trump. there is no way the senate republicans are going to vote for remove him from office. i have been trying to count and get above three republicans and remotely may possibly vote to remove. >> and by the way, let's give

mitch some credit here that he's actually willing to get his colleague in trouble. >> baby steps here. what else is out there what are we going to find out? when you think about all that's happening of one whistleblower? how many whistleblowers that are out there and how many tapes and other transcripts. is there some other point, again, it is extremely unlikely, republicans will break for the exact reasons you said. they're sort of in this and they have gone so far and they' will all go down together. we don't know where we are compares to today than a week ago. >> this is their three cycles of the united states senate.

two of them, this is now the worst of the three of every two years cycle. they have about 20 people that are up of reelection. you have susan collins is up and disappointed. we'll still do what trump says in a disappointed sort of way. you think about people that have to run reelection. if this is a national security situation remember the way that the speaker was able to get to 225 supporters of inquiry is this is not about the past, it is about the future election. it is about national security. >> it is so much powerful than in some ways. it is forward looking. now if you have some john cornyn saying, i here by acquit when this is a national security situation that's clear there are transcripts that the white house put out. that's their own spin says he did it.

>> i say that because of the op-ed that ran in "the washington post" last week from the seven national security house democrats from districts that trump won. >> right. >> that tells you all you need to know about why speaker pelosi felt comfortable. republicans are running for reelection in the senate should be very weary about what could be fall them if and when notes on phone calls come out or maybe there is another whistleblower or whistleblower's testimony, what this person ends up saying. how many more people get implicated. one announcement that came out last week that perked my ears up, the russians. the russians put out an announcement saying i hope our conversations -- that was

thuggish beyond thuggish. >> remember donald trump behaving sort of a mafia style. s the. >> what i was going to say once that announcement came out, it was the first time people realize this ukrainian story may be bigger. it may have something to do -- >> they are at war. >> ukraine are our allies. congress appropriated those funds because congress believes it would be beneficial for the united states to protect from russia. it is really tied in. if i were them. they decided at that very moment to step up and say oh now wait a minute. >> right. >> no. no. >> and charlie, you have ben

that's sort of being ryan-like hiding behind the curtains to protect himself from trump's tweets. he's gently stepping out and regaining himself. well, we may not want to get out there too far in favor of donald trump. that crack does suggest that republicans understand this is grave and serious which indicates to me it is probably much worse than we think. >> yeah, the conscious of the small voice telling you maybe things are going to get worse. ben sass as been a disappointment, he's up for reelection. he does not want to challenge. he's afraid of the tweets. it was a little again another baby steps. guys, let's not prejudge this and let's not pretend this is not serious and this is nothing. this is something here.

i do think that the republicans are looking around and going look -- hey, donald trump would never do this, does not sound like him? they know who the guy is and know how he behaves. once he established this pattern, if this is the way he behaves, how many other conversations are like that? what do you say to president xi and putin and now this stuff is coming out again. it is the question of how far are they willing to go? so far it is 100%. again, things are moving quickly. this feels different than the mueller investigation because that went on for so long, it was so secret and many ways it put that whole scandal on hold for a very long time. now it is all playing out in realtime and you know the stories that are being broken are not being broken in a secret investigation. the public hearings do have a

chance to move the needle. >> yes. >> he's a person with deep ties to the senior leadership across the republican party. he's notoriously a foreign policy hawk. the idea that donald trump trading ukraine security to help his cause would be a nafta of john bolton. he's having conversations to push the republican party to break with donald trump. >> if someone's going to talk it is going to be him. >> all of this happening when john bolton walked out. >> i left you -- >> i believe he was the last babysitter. >> yeah, if he was running for president. >> i don't want you watching my baby. >> exactly. >> gathank you so much, more "a. joy" after the break. more "a.m

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yes, we have and director mcguyer promised during the hearing that whistleblower will be allowed to come in, come in without a minor from the justice department or from the white house to tell the whistleblower.

we'll get the unfiltered testimony of that whistleblower. we are taking all the precautions we can to make sure we do so. we allow that testimony to go forward in a way that protects the whistleblower's identity. >> now the whistleblower will testify before congress soon. how will that impact the impeach. inqui inquiry. joining me now peyton dawson and our former republican davis jolly and charlie sykes is still with me. we are friends. >> okay, yeah. no haters. let me play you lindsey graham from your fair state of the beautiful state of south carolina. >> sure. >> here he is appeared to do what donald trump was doing in going after or targeting the people who helped this i would say brave whistleblower to come forward. take a listen.

>> every american deserves to threaten their front accuser. this is a sham as far as i am concerned. i want to know who told the whistleblower about the phone call and why they change the rules of whistleblower's not the her say rules was changed. >> that sounds to me like targeting the white house officials who under the whistleblower's laws have the right to come forward with information in which they feel the crime was committed. it appears that graham is leading the charge to out those people. what do you say about this? >> never under estimate lindsey graham. he made his career on impeachment against bill clinton. >> for lying about a sexual affair. >> that's what propel him to the united states senate. lindsey understands impeachment and understands the politics.

>> i am not talking about impeachment here. i am talking about potentially putting in danger of retribution, people who are working in this white house and he seems to be ready to leave the charge to do that. >> you think he should do that? >> i think lindsey is going to do what he thinks is correct. you think he thinks it is right to put people in jeopardy in retributi retribution? >> lindsey is going to get reelected. >> that's all he cares about. >> are you saying his principle is if you come forward with information that the president of the united states committed a crime that you should have retribution be outed, that's his principles? that would be quite disturbing. >> he's trying to get to the bottom of where it came from. >> don't those people have the

right to be protected? >> he does. >> that i h >> do you think lindsey gram and do you take from his statement that lindsey graham have any interests in protecting the whistleblower. >> i nolknow lindsey gram. he's unfortunately unrecognizable to the person he used to be. you have to look to his self interest and in light of his self interest and the politician ran donald trump. this is not a conviction any longer. simply electoral convenience. where you see lindsey move and i know you were talking about fox news and other republicans in the previous segment. here is the flag to throw on the field when you know republicans are just talking to protect the president. they do one about three things. they either make the quid pro quo which is unnecessary. we don't need a quid pro quo in the united states. the president of the united states interfered inside the 2020 election or they attack the whistleblower, the credibility

of the whistleblower or the white house around them. what it is is a distraction. neither democrats or any of us across the country should fall for that argument and go down that road because it is unnecessary. the president confessed to impeachable behaviors. let's focus on that. >> i am going to play two south carolina senators. i want to play lindsey graham first which is tim scott. here is two senatores of south caroli carolina. >> in this call record says would you do us as favor. he brings up the debunk miyth o the server and the need for investigation. he repeatedly lays it out. also, the a-package was mentioned.

you have no problem with any of this? >> i have zero problem. >> i told you. i have zero problem with his phone call. there is no quid pro quo. >> perhaps the biggest loser in this entire process will be biden for president. what he'll have to explain as a democrat drs drag all the information to the public forum is his relationship with ukraine and his son. they are making it difficult for the their front runner to hold onto their league. perhaps that's their strategy because they want someone coming up against president trump. they are setting up a lose-lose situation from the democratic party. i am going to come back to you just a second. these are your two senators. i think a lot of people watch ly lindsey graham and they remember the guy who called trump an idiot and a racist, if the republican party nominates him,

the party will be destroyed and they watch that guy becoming a sycophant to donald trump. what people ask is what leverage does donald trump have on these people. >> what does the president or -- what do they have on these guys? >> those are two wonderfull wonderfully -- tim scott, he's speaking the truth. we have to step back and think when we look past what's going on right now. >> hard to do that. >> let me talk as a political operative here. and what happens here, this is going to come and go. i have spoken with newt gingrich who understooands what impeachmt does. >> nancy pelosi dwas forced to o this. the politics behind this

impeachment will hurt the democratic party and joe biden. tim scott is right. let's talk about the base, it is not who elects him. they e electricilect him in the. the general election voters are going to see this what it is. i will tell you how they view it now. the potholes have not been fixed and health insurance have not been lowered and a stalemate of hating washington. the question will be at the ballot box. do they hate washington worst or trump. general election is what i am paying attention to. the primary voter is what it is. that's what everybody is speaking to. the politics of this is very dangerous for the democrats. >> let me go to david jolly on that. do you agree on that? you tell me whether you agree? >> here is high newt gingrich

says it is a bad idea. they won the popular vote for the congress and lost about two seats. in 2000s they did the same thing. there is not a political sown side for democrats for doing this. even giving you that and i would say this. who cares about the politics of impeachme impeachment. stop of the election arguing about hunter biden and whistleblower and quid pro quo. let's talk about the president who abused the office of presidency and abused his power to leverage a foreign leader to investigate his opponent for the purpose of interfering with electors. with voters in the 2020 election. with giving voters of the united states miss information about a political opponent. that's impeachable behavior. all the other arguments may be coug garbage. donald trump should be on donald trump's impeachable behave and

everything else is a diffuser. >> is this the person you put out on a sunday show to defend you. here is one, steven miller. >> i think it is unfortunate that the media continues to describe this individual as a whistleblower. a this individual does not deserve a partisan hit job, it do. i worked for the federal government for three years, i know what the deep states look like. i know the difference between a whistleblower and deep state operati operative. this is a deep state operative, pure and simple. if you read the seven page that the whistleblower put together, it drips with con desings.

>> that's the guy on this. are they putting out their a-team on this charlie because they're in a good position or they're the only ones willing to do the job? >> yeah, this is not a good work. i agree with david on this. the strategy seems to be threefold. denial and detractiistraction a intimidation. i want to hear joe biden about this. and this intimidation and bullying of anyone else who may come forward and be a whistleblower. they're trying to discredit him. also they're trying to send a signal to other people in the government. don't you dare come forward. don't you dare break the seal because we'll attack you, we'll demean you and we'll tweet about you and etc. so far last week it has not been working. this is their play book. again, you will be seeing this over and over again.

you no e tknow the denial and distraction and the intimidat n intimidation. no one knows how this will play out politically. i think congress has no choice other than to pursue this because otherwise the president is above the law. we don't know politically how this is going to play out and this is not the point at the moment. >> we shall see how it plays out. charlie sykes and david jolly. thank you guys for being here. >> coming up. senator kamala harris is joining the conversation, that's next. c.

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has the president or anyone else at the white house ever asked or suggested you open an investigation of anyone, yes or no? >> president or anybody else? >> seems like you remember something like that and be able to tell us? >> i am trying to grapple a little word and suggest. there had been discussions of

matters out there that they have not asked me to open an investigation. >> perhaps they suggested? >> i would not say suggest. >> suggested or hinted or infer? you don't know okay. >> senator kamala harris anticipate months ago there was more than barr's story. something the rest of us learned definitively this week. the impeachment goes into the senate for trial. senator harris will be one of trump's jurors deciding whether he'll be removed from office. joining me now is senator kamala harris from california, thank you so much for being here this morning. >> great to be with you joy, good morning. >> i don't know whether you found out whether or not mr. barr does understand the definition of the word suggested but you have -- >> joy, he hinted he does.

>> the calling on the synonym on your part. at the time you were asking him those questions, did you have a sense that he had actually called on or he had evidence that you could not discuss with him that he had begun an investigation into those who investigated the russia attack on our election. >> so at the time i asked him that question, joy. i had a very clear sense of who donald trump is. remember even before that there was information that he had asked jeff sessions to investigate the clintons. so i had a good sense of a character of donald trump and what he is and willing to do in terms of making political requests of members of his cabinet. so that was really what where i

was coming from in asking that question. it is a question that needs to be asked of members of donald trump cabinet because the rules just seemed to not apply to donald trump according to donald trump. >> we know from tom bossert that he says the whole conspiracy theory that is related to the rich conspiracy theory that donald trump clearly believes because the first favor that he asked of the president of ukraine was that he wanted him to use his justice department to look into this conspiracy theory which exonerates russia. we know donald trump believes that conspiracy theory as well. do you believe there should be hearing on whether or not donald trump actually attempted to use the justice department mr. barr who was implicated in that to

try to investigate a fake conspiracy theory that would exonerate russia? >> absolutely. that would be a subject of the impeachment. >> going back to the questions i asked, the attorney general, barr. he should have been able to answer them yes or no. he should come back to congress to answer the question again either yes or no and make it clear that the american people of what's going on with the administration. all of that should be investiga investigated. the american people have a very good reason to believe that donald trump used the taxpayer's dollars and the office of the president of the united states which is our office is the people's office in a way that

had been about himself and his political gain and not to mention what may be still disclosed about the financial gains. so yes, absolutely. all of that is on the table. william barr has now come out and said he's angry, i guess he's told others by being drawn into ukraine conversation by donald trump sort of like into rudy giuliani who of course is donald trump's actual attorney where mr. barr, he says that he had nothing to do with it. and you said you want him to testify before congress again. do you believe william barr would actually show up if subpoenaed to testify. >> he's the top lawyer of the united states of america. if he's subpoenaed by a court of a congress to testify and he's

going to be true to his oath to defend the constitution of the united states, he better show up. he should testify under oath. part of my background was for two terms out of the attorney general out of the state of california, a state of 40 million people, i ran the second launch of the department of justice of the united states. as someone who's dedicated my life to the fight for justice, i will tell you the state of the integrity, american system of democracy of justice, barr needs to come before congress and tell the truth and expose what has been corruption. we believe. the conduct by this administration and the president. >> i am going to play you what you said about rudy giuliani, the former mayor of new york who actually, the southern district of new york. here you are saying he should be barred.

take a listen. >> i actually also think the state bar of new york should in va investigate rudy giuliani. whether he should retain his license or qualify to do that or does he pass all the requirements that we have as a ethical behavior as a lawyer. >> given the behavior of mr. barr both in intervening and stopping the complaint from coming to congress even though he was named in it along with rudy giuliani in his performance of his duties and his defense attorney for the president. would you say the same thing for his law license given the attorney general that he may needs to be investigated regarding him holding a law license. >> first, he needs to come before congress which has a responsibility to conduct oversight. stepping back joy, this is how i

think about it. you know other framers of our trump institutions and the founder of our country. they imagine a moment like this, right? they imagine that there may be a moment in america's history where a branch of government abuses their power and authority. so they design our symptoms of democracy of checks and balances. the leg on that table being an independent rest. thank you, joy. what we are seeing is the design of our democracy is being tested, meaning a detection balance is going to kick in. in this case it means congress needs to be the checks and balances by the executive branch which is the president and the administrati administration. barr is a member of this administration. the executive branch noeed to

come to congress so we and the united states could hold him account for any abuse of his office and his president. >> we know donald trump's closest ally came forward and tweeted, i believe this was today in america you can't even get a parking ticket based on hearsay testimony but you can impeach a president? but, what do you say to that as a former attorney general that he's claiming that this testimony or this letter from the whistleblower is nothing but hearsay and it should not be the bases of an impeachment inquiry. your thoughts? >> i think that we can't listen to voices that are trying to confuse and distract the american people from what it is happening. there is an allegation have been found to be credible of all that we know is in the complaint and now the proceedings will start

to do the investigation. there is no question in any mind that direct evidence will be presented and then we'll see where it goes. it is absolutely misleading the public to suggest that the impeachment proceedings are going to be based on hearsay. and that's what's going to exist. >> unfortunately, they're allies of the president who are yet again trying to take the process before it begins to create the american public skepticism and distrust of their government. we have seen this happen continuously. we who are patriots, joy, who love our country and we are better than this, we are not going to stand for that. because we know that our sisters can have integrity if it is led by people who have integrity.

i have full faith and confidence in the ability of the united states and its leaders to conduct a hearing and a series of hearings with integrity to get to the truth. >> we know now that the whistleblower agreed to testify and chairman schiff has said they'll receive this person's testimony. a, what do you hope to hear from this whistleblower? do you believe the committee should also call those who spoke with the whistleblower, presumably they're able to get the under line -- to try to find out who hid the actual transcript of the conversation between donald trump and the president of ukraine. should people of white house also have to come and testify after that. >> well, absolutely. anybody with information of what happened should be prepared to come forward for the truth. here is the thing, joy. it is basically the president

has confessed. and, there is evidence of consciousness of guilt which is tracked in the transcript. we have a transcript. frankly people said to me, ydo you think these hearings are going to take very long? not really because there is a whole direct evidence including his consensual confession. we need to get on with it. >> earlier this morning we spoke with one of our rivals for the democratic nomination beto o'rourke who called for the impeachment of donald trump and for him to resign. >> right. prepare to use taxpayers' dollars to negotiate. that's the aide to ukraine. that's american's taxpayers.

>> i am sorry, i believe we lost you for a moment in your answer there. i apologize for that. i want to ask you read up again on one of your rivalsreup againe of the r50iother candidate beto o'rourke who has called for him not only to be impeached, but for him to resign. >> right now, we should take it one step at a time, and i have praise for nancy pelosi who have in earnest initiated this process and the people have the right to know that the framers designed that there is a system of checks and balances, and the american people have a right to see that happen, to know that when we get to the probably inevitable conclusion that there was a system of integrity and plus, let's just be honest, donald trump is not going

resign. that is not his nature or character, but the process should begin, and begin in earnest and i have full confidence it will. >> the polling on impeachment has moved very, very quickly and we have new numbers out of cbs that show that 55% of americans approve of the impeachment inquiry into the president, and 45% disapprove and given the speed with which the public has caught up with the originally was simply the progressive part of the democratic party, do you now believe that there is going to be more pressure on your body of the united states senate to take seriously these charges, and to take them up and can you foresee any of your colleagues on the republican side voting to convict this president? >> you know, i hope so, joy. there have been, and we have seen acts of courage in the united states senate. we have seen people speak up, and i hope that on this one which is so blatant, and i mean,

so blatant. i do hope that there will be people who just have to look in the mirror and agree that on this one, you have to put country before party. so we will see. i don't know. i don't know. we have so many other examples of people not stepping up and coddling his bad behavior, because apparently, and clearly they are concerned that their constituents will not find that to be popular, and that they could suffer politically for it. but i think that sometimes you have to say and know that your constituents may say that i don't agree with you, but they will say i respect you. that can carry the day. >> and so as a former prosecutor, if you were presented with a case like donald trump's, would you prosecute someone who did the things that donald trump did for obstruction of justice? would you find crimes in what he did in what some people say is an attempt of extortion of a

form of government, and would you prosecute donald trump? >> look. let's just get going with the impeachment proceedings and this is what i want to recognize about the leadership of the house of representatives. congressman al green, and congresswoman maxine waters have been saying from the beginning that it needs to start and happen, and they had the foresight and the vision to know that we had to get to a place, and we need to be at a place where we present this evidence and conduct this investigation to get to the heart of what should be accountability and transparency around the conduct and the misconduct of this president, and that is where i am focused, but again, i mean, he has confessed and there you are. >> when he is a civilian again, whether or not he is impeached or not, should he be prosecuted? >> we will get there when we get there. >> and just as you would like to

see justice kavanaugh to be impeached for the untruthfulness and the confirmation hearing, and is that something that could happen? >> well, you know, i am glad that you raised, that joy. first of all, step back and see how rapidly so many outrageous things are happening that we are no longer talking about what we were talking about just a couple of -- [ no audio ] >> we have lost the senator's audio and i apologize to senator harris, and we have lost the audio and we have kept the panel here to go around and get your reaction, midwin? >> what she said is what i spoke to, we have to have a hearing and get it out to american people, and again, you know, when she asked the question fos attorney general barr, the fact that he hemmed and hawed and he didn't have an answer, we now know that looking back it is relevant. >> and so, on this question of

donald trump, the senator seemed to have some hope, and she seemed to be somewhat hopeful that the colleagues when they heard the evidence would vote against donald trump and as she was saying that you nodded your head and you don't believe it is going to happen? >> we will see how it plays out, but the politics of it, and when it plays out, and let me tell you that when you ask her a question, she will know what the answer is. >> and that is what every attorney should to. >> she is doing well in south carolina and taking votes from joe biden and they have to be careful of how they handle joe biden, and this is going to be bad for joe biden and really good for the rest of the candidate, because you can't have this mixed in with the politicians of the day, and that is what is going to happen when this impeachment inquiry comes back. >> and can i take it away from joe biden and back to the president of the united states, and senator harris said the thing that we should all keep in mind when she said quote he already confessed. president trump has said many times on twitter and in various

press avails, yeah, i did it, and what was wrong with it? it was a perfect call. and yes, he has confessed. >> and so it is important to look at this, and donald trump is consistent. he confessed to asking ukraine for assistance, but we know from the mueller report that he also was happy with getting help from russia for assistance, and so he is consistent. >> and he confessed on nbc news that he fired jim comey for russia, and so he is used to confessing in his mind and getting away wit. again, to senator harris, we apologize for that audio problem there in the end. and so thank you all. before we go, we want to congratulate, and we didn't do who in the week, but these guys who made the root 100 who is the list of the most influential african-americans in the country, and we were so pleased to see the a.m. joy guests there including kareem juan pierre,

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that is our show for today and thank you for watching. "am joy" is going to be back next saturday. and until then, my friend alex witt is up next. >> and you know, i have to