that is our show for today and thank you for watching. "am joy" is going to be back next saturday. and until then, my friend alex witt is up next. >> and you know, i have to

button up the show, because you are the one to honor, and you were so great last night. and i was eating and drinking and dancing. >> and i had the shapewear on and i was up too late. >> and amazing show. and good job, and have a good one and, joy, rest. thank you. and good day to all of you. high noon here in the east, and 9:00 a.m. in the west. new this hour, major players are sounding off a short time ago about where the impeachment probe is going and whether the whistle-blower will testify. >> the whole world is watching this. >> will the white house have to fight us on this? i am image tooth and nail. >> i would not cooperate with adam schiff. i think he should be removed. >> and new poll numbers on impeaching the president. i will talk about this with pramila jayapal.

and all of that in a moment as i bid you a good morning, ma'am. and breaking news, the house democrats are confirming that the key witness in their hearing the whistle-blower will testify soon on the complaint that sent this investigation into motion. >> that whistle-blower is going to be coming in, and come in without a minder from the justice department or from the white house to tell the whistle-blower what they can and cannot say. we will get the unfiltered testimony of that whistle-blower, and it is going to depend more on how quickly the director of national intelligence can complete the security clearance process before the whistle-blower's lawyer, but we are ready to hear from the whistle-blower when that is done. >> and this is as they have scheduled five depositions from five state department senior officials, but as they are adding more witnesses, the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani is not going to

cooperate. >> i would not cooperate with him, i think that adam schiff should be premoved. if they put in someone who has not prejudged the case, and a democrat what has not expressed an opinion, and if i had a judge who had announced that i am going to impeach and went ahead and did a false episode, wouldn't i move to recuse that judge? >> and we are now getting a look at what the american people think of the ukraine scandal. a brand-new a bshgs krshgabc/ip that they are somewhat surprised that the president encouraged to find out about the vice president and his son. and these new numbers are coming as nancy pelosi told democrats in texas last night that public opinion is shifting on impeachment. >> in the public, the tide is completely changing, and they could change back, who knows, but right now, after seeing the

complaint and the i.g. report and the cavalier attitude that the administration had toward it, the american people are coming to a different conclusion. >> new numbers to support the speaker's words saying that 55% of americans approve that congress has opened up an impeachment inquiry into the president, and we will go in-depth with hans nichols who is standing by at the white house, and new york washington correspondent charlie savidge and also our commentator monica bertrand. and what is the latest here about the whistle-blower? >> well, they are taking an argument made outside of the white house from jay sekulow and rudy giuliani that he is not a whistle-blower, but a partisan operative and the president himself used that language and

suggested it, mangding the explicit claim from white house officials. and we had earlier on one of the sunday shows how steven miller put it. >> it is unfortunate that the media is continuing to describe this individual as a whistle-blower and honorific that this individual does not deserve, a partisan hit job does not make you a whistle-blower because you go through the whistle-blower protection act. i have worked in the federal government now for nearly three years. i know what the deep state looks like and i know the difference of a whistle-blower and a deep state operative, and this is a deep state operative pure and simple. >> so the emerging strategy is appears to be to attack the whistle-blower, and you heard rudy giuliani talking about how adam schiff has lost his credibility. in a moment there, giuliani said that he would cooperate if directed by his client, the president of the united states. now, the president and his allies are trying to speak directly to their base. it is clear that they are

focusing on their supporters and you have the message from the president from the rose garden yesterday talking directly to the supporters and laulara trum with a map up of all of the red counties and saying try to impeach this. and also the president's golfing partner with him yesterday saying that you cannot be impeached based on hearsay testimony, and that is what they believe that this whistle-blower is doing. what we can expect to hear potentially is that actually to have him, and this whistle-blower be cross-examined and that is clearly the direction that the republicans are going on, and now, schiff says he has some agreement to see him testify, but we will see whether or not the white house allows that to happen, and crucially in what venue, closed or open session. guys? >> okay. thank you very much hans nichols for, that and joining me right now is the washington

representative jayapal, and i am curious what he had to say about the reaction of the whistle-blower, and what you believe about that. >> it is unfortunate for the american people. steven miller is showing that he is nothing but a partisan who reports directly to trump, and do anything that trump wants him to do. and here is the thing, alex, a whistle-blower is a protected right that we have to make sure that we know about wrongdoing. we protect whistle-blowers. for steven miller and donald trump to somehow imply that this whistle-blower is a spy and deserves the same treatment as somebody who has committed treason by the way used to be execution, and it is just outrageous, and it is showing tus lies and the cover-up that the administration is going to continue to do because they are scared, and they should be. >> and all of this talk about the whistle-blower just making the complaint based on hearsay, and isn't that something that is prompting the inquiry looking

into this to see if there is truth behind it? isn't that what the inquiry is all about? >> well, that is right. i would point out, and i have said it before that we should not be trying to find a secret smoking gun. donald trump is the smoking gun. he admitted exactly what he did, and everything that is described in the call record in the whistle-blower complaint backs up what he said. he literally bragged about trying to get a, you know, actually putting pressure on a foreign country to dig up dirt to interfere in the 2020 election, and benefit donald trump. he abused the power of his office and bragged about it, and withheld aid to that country so that he could make sure that they would do what he wanted. he bragged about all of that, alex. so you know, the idea that the whistle-blower is operating off of hearsay, no, actually donald trump told us exactly what he

did. the whistle-blower's complaint is corroborating that. >> and so with regard to the inquiry, your committee along with intel, foreign affairs already requesting the depositions from the five senior state department officials happening over the next two week, and who else do you want to hear from as this inquiry unfolds? >> well, i think that, you know, the intel committee, and foreign affairs and oversight will handle this part of the complaint the ukraine whistle-blower investigation, and other committees will sort of finalize whatever they have in front of us. our experience on judiciary, alex is that the trump administration has done everything they can to obstruct congress every step of the way. i hope that the whistle-blower testifies and you have noticed that in the subpoenas that mr. schiff says that if they didn't, it is construed as obstruction of congress which is what we have been dealing with as the witnesses have come before us in judiciary and refused to answer

questions. so i am not sure how much more information we will gets a suming that the administration keeping up the pattern of obstruction of congress, so we will have to see where na goeth goes. we have quite a bit of information, and this particular ukraine situation is different, because it is president trump and not candidate trump abusing the power of the white house office which belongs to the people of the united states and trying to get a foreign country to interfere and dig up dirt on the political rival to help the 2020 election. that is absolutely a high crime and misdemeanor admitted on public air. >> is there a question that you would want to ask once you get the witnesses in the chair there? >> well, you know, the ukraine investigation won't come through the judiciary, but through the intel committee, but what i would say is that i would want to know that one of the things that really troubled me is that we are not just talking about

ukraine apparently, and the whistle-blower complaint is quite clear that there were other call records and transcripts that were scrub and put in a safe somewhere with other leaders of foreign countries, and so this is why the graveness of the situation has to be emphasized. it is absolutely a betrayal of our values, and our constitution and our national security. if this is happening with ukraine, there are at least 12 calls with russian president vladimir putin that might also be in the safe, and putin says that he does not want us to have access to, and that says to me that we need access to that, and i would like to ask questions about those. >> and let me ask you about that, because he says, look, the conversations of the leaders of two countries need to have an air of privacy to them. so is there a defense there, and you can understand at least why putin, trump, and anybody else speaking with the united states would want to have protection to speak candidly. >> absolutely.

if they were speaking about things that weren't a betrayal of national security or abuse of power of the office. what this whistle-blower complained has brought forward is that perhaps things were being scrubbed and put into confidential, you know, into the secured places because the president had said things that would be a betrayal of national security if they were released, and that is the whole point of the whistle-blower complaint that makes so it serious, and the transcript which is not a transcript so far. we have a call record, and we understand that is perhaps part of the plan not to have these transcripts, so i would like to see the actual transcript of the call, but i think that again as i said, you know, donald trump is his own worst enemy, because he has said all of these things, and they have been corroborated by rudy giuliani, and the idea that donald trump would bring the department of justice and

his personal attorney into this which is clearly laid out in the call record is, is just a small sign of the level of betrayal, the level of seriousness of essentially illiciting a foreign country to participate in the election and hanging it over his head. >> i am curious about the vice president's role in all of this, because it says in the complaint that mike pence was instructed to cancel his planned trip for president zelensky's inauguration. is he going to be called? >> what i can see in the record and the call record, i think that we should call the other individuals, and not the vice president immediately, but the other individuals who were part of this investigation.

part of the reason that the inspector general deemed this a credible report is because he also must have spoken to other individuals who were named in and by the whistle-blower, and he has 14 days after the whistle-blower complaint is submitted to look at the complaint, and determine whether or not it is credible, and make his judgment. i assume that meant that he spoke to some of ther many sources who corroborated the complaint, and those are the first places that i would go and where chairman schiff is going as well. >> we have heard from rudy giuliani and he would not cooperate, and so he is mentioned 31 times in the complaint and will we see him in the witness chair? >> i think that we should, but i will tell you that being on the judiciary committee, and seeing the white house claim a fake executive privilege that simply does not exist for corey lewandowski who never worked for the white house, it makes me skeptical that we will see rudy

giuliani testify, and if he does -- >> but can you force him, ma'am? >> well, the problem is that right now, and two methods of forcing that testimony, and one is through the courts which takes a very long time, and the trump administration has given us no indication that they will accept any lower court ruling and they will tie it up in the court, and so that he is why he contesting it, because he knows that we would have to go to courts. and the other is inherent intent, and so we would have to do some things to the house rules to use the inherent contempt statute and it is not impossible and we are looking into it, but the inherent contempt statute requires us to have a trial at the bar of the house, and so, we'll have to see exactly what that looks like. i ran into the same problem, and you know, the witnesses are coming before us, and only one person they are performing for, and that is the president of the

united states, and so we had former i.c.e. director tom holman before us, and incredibly disrespectful to me as chairman, and so there is not much we can do >> but we can replay it. i know it very well, and this is a heated exchange here. and here it is. >> mr. hohmann, please respect the chair and the authority of the chair. the time of the gentleman has expired. >> i have asked you politely to go beyond my time and you have let other people go beyond their time, but not tom hohmann does not get to go beyond his time. >> mr. hohmann, respect the chair's authority. >> i respect the chair's authority, but -- >> respect the chair. >> you work for me. i'm a taxpayer. >> and wow. what did you make of this combativeness and what does it say to you? >> well, so many things. first of all, like i said, they are performing for donald trump, and that is the only person they are performing for, and they are being encouraged to disrespect

the laws of the body oversight checks and balances, and the authority of the chair in committees, and secondly, you know, as the former executive of i.c.e., it made the point on immigration detention which was that this agency has gone out of control. if the head or the former head of the agency acts like this, we can hardly expect that it is a law and order agency. they do not respect authority, checks and balances or oversight, and then finally, i will just say that i think that, you know, it may have also had something to do with the fact that i was an immigrant brown woman with the gavel, and i don't think they liked to see that, but first and foremost, the issue is the disrespect for the authority of the chair, and we have seen it with corey lewandowski, and we have seen it over and over again in the judiciary committee, and i'm afraid that we might see it in

the intel committee as well, but they have learned from our experiences that you saw adam schiff say in his subpoenas that if people do not testify fully, that it will be considered obstruction of congress, and which by the way, alex, it is article iii in the nixon impeachment that it is obstruction of congress, and so that is an impeachable offense, and it is absolutely something that we have seen a pattern of, and we may continue to see it. >> well, i wanted to say that your reasonings, and your thought behind why you were shown that disrespect is sad and pathetic, but i am proud to have you on speaking with me. thank you so much for your insights. >> thank you so much. and joining me is charlie savidge, correspondent for the "new york times" and national contributor natasha bertrand. and what a great conversation there with the congresswoman, and what did you take away with the impeachment process. charlie, you first? >> well, it is looking to me

that both the democrats and the republicans are continuing to focus on the whistle-blower and the excitement i guess among the democrats that i am seeing on twitter that adam schiff is saying that the person is going to be coming in to testify, and the attacks on the person adds a partisan hack, and as you showed earlier, and we don't know the identity precisely, and something that is not going to -- >> do we know it is a his? >> yeah, we have reported that. >> we know it is a his. >> i think that we have reported that. but in any case, the thing that is puzzling about this to me is that at this point the hearsay and what is the person's attitude seems overtaken by the events once the white house put out the not quite transcript with all of the ellipses in the middle of trump's comments that may or may not be the complete conversation, but once that thing was out and shows that he did say these things to the ukrainian president is besides the point. so who the person was and what

they were thinking when they filed this thing, because they are no longer a fact witness, but in is the fact witness and so i wonder if the democrats are making a mistake to have testimony by him, because who cares. >> well, at nbc news, we are not reporting whether it is his or her, and i will put that out there, and natasha, what are your takeaways from the congresswoman. >> yes, charlie is right, and when the congresswoman said that donald trump himself is the smokinging gun, that is spot on, because the transcript has been released and they admitted that they put the conversation in the nec's code word system concealing frit a num bconceal ing it from white house officials and others who need it to do their job, and thereby basically compromising national security in that sense as well. so all of this is coming out, and also we know in recent days it is coming out that more infor v information and conversations that the president have had with

mbs and others have been in this code system, and restricting access to them, so that the focus on the whistle-blower may be misguided and potentially dangerous for the whistle-blower, because the more emphasis that is placed on their identity and the kind of the motivations for this, the more likely it is that their identity is going to be revealed. the washington post reported that there are dozens dozens of right wing operatives who are trying to out this person, and it is really only a matter of time until that happens. >> absolutely. so i will have you come back to talk bt this further, but to your point, natasha, we will talk about the headline and it is this "amateur pro trump sleuth is scrambling to unmask the whistle-blower." should this happen? i will ask a former cia agent about that when we come back. . this, and even this. but i don't have to clean this, because the self-cleaning brush roll removes hair while i clean. - [announcer] shark, the vacuum that deep cleans

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the president of the united states is the whistle-blower, and this individual is a saboteur trying to undermine a democratically elected government. >> is he -- saboteur? is he a treasoner? >> well, the president pointed out that this individual is close to a spy. >> and that is the white house policystein miller slamming the whistle-blower and dismissing that person as a deep state operative. and now, charlie and natasha are back with me.

i know that you have been reporting on the president's comment, and he said whoever provided the information to the whistle-blower is close to a spy, and how does that attack tell us about how this story is weighing on the president? >> what we are seeing is again to go back to what i was saying before the commercial break, now that almost sort of kind of not really transcript is out, who put forward this information is overtaken by the events, but it seems like the early stages of the repetition of the mueller playbook even though the investigation is over to try to discredit the substance of the investigation by casting doubt on the origins, and the whistle-blower is partisan or who are the people who told the whistle-blower the information that he put in the whistle-blower complaint that led to this sequence of events as if it makes a difference that the actual information is public

how it is that this got going in the first place, but it is certainly going to speak to a certain paranoia that there are people inside of the white house who were concerned about hearing this call enough that they talked to someone else about it. >> and natasha, what are you making of the white house defense strategy here? one of which comes from jay sekulow saying that the white house being transparent to charlie's point, but that the transparency has led to more trouble, right? >> right. i think that it is really important to note what charlie noted at the end which is that the white house doesn't seem to understand that not everyone within the white house is completely on board with what the president has been doing clearly, because 12 officials did reach out to this, and they were listening in on the call and many of them reached out to whistle-blower and expressed the earns can about the way that the president had acted and those individuals are going to be probably uncover and subpoenaed to testify before congress, and more and more of this is going to be coming out. so laying the blame squarely at

the feet of the person who reported it, i think that they are ignoring a much bigger problem that they have internally with the fact that people are more and more disturbed by the president's behavior, and now whether or not that is going to result in the sea change within the white house, and with more and more people turning against the president's actions here that remains to be seen, but clearly, they have a problem on their hands with how the president has been conducting foreign policy and national security which is clearly just that he perceives it as a way to benefit his own personal interests. >> and okay. we will look at the poll and break it down in a new poll that the americans say that 55% approve of the fact that congress has opened up an inquiry. and so how do you suppose that speaker nancy pelosi is going to read the numbers? >> as a reinforcement of what she saw as a real turning point in the investigation. the ukraine call, and the ukraine scandal and her understanding of it as something that american people can really

understand and get behind. the reason why i think that she didn't feel that the mueller report was enough to really create that change in the perception of president trump's alleged corruption here is because obviously the russia probe was much more complicated investigation that spanned two-plus years and dozens of individuals and two-plus countries, and it was very, very complicated and also it dragged out over a long period of time the revelation, but this isp coing out all at once and now, it is not about candidate trump who is soliciting information from a foreign leader or country to get through to the rivals, but this is the president abusing the office to get dirt on a political rival. it is involving public corruption, and more than possible campaign finance violations. >> and so are the republicans on capitol hill going to see it that way or differently? >> well, the pattern has been

the republicans are going to close ranks, and this is the pol polarized times that we are living in. there is a general degree of quiet among the republicans on the hill, and few jim jordans the or lindsey graham out there right away to circle the wagons with the president, but there is an awful lot of the wait and see attitude i think among many of the republicans. i do not see this ending in trump being removed from office before the office, and there is not enough republican senators to break rank, but too much of the risk. but there is a difference of not removing him, but not supporting him that could have overtones. >> okay. good point, charlie and natasha. good points as always. and now the story that broke overnight, the trump administration is intensifying the investigation into dozens of e-mails of current and former

senior state department messages and those that were sent to the private e-mail server of hillary clinton. the reporter who broke that story is greg miller. talk to us about the reporting and everything that you learned in it. >> yeah, so, our story basically says that there are about 130 former, and mostly former employees at the state department who are basically being reinvestigated for their connections to e-mails that ended up in hillary clinton's e-mail inbox. i mean, in some cases these e-mails are 10 years old now. and the broader significance to us for this story was just the question that it raises about the trump administration using levers of power for political end which is what the story is that the whistle-blower story in ukraine is about and of course, there are some appearances that

it might be what this is about as well. >> and so in the article that you write, and here is the quote, the state department investigators began contacting the former officials about 18 months ago after president trump's election and then seemed to drop the effort before picking it up in august. talk about the timing specifically and why is this happening now? >> yeah. so, i mean, i wanted to say that obviously the state department and we quote the state department in the story saying that this has nothing to do with politic, and this is just process playing out in a legitimate fashion, but the timing, you know, it is raising questions. and yes, so a lot of those who are being pulled into this new investigation got notifications in the august time frame really closely thereafter, obviously, the july 25th call between president trump and the leader of ukraine, and i'm not saying that the two things are linked, but these are looking like instances in which, you know, there are, you know, the

president has been fixated on a couple of things, right. he is fixated and constantly on hillary clinton and the e-mail issue, and constantly seeking to revive that issue as a political weapon that he can wield and as recently as this week at the united nations once again talking about it. and then of course, going after joe biden. so, those are the timing here and the linkages to his political adversaries are important. >> and greg, the last question here, the tenor of all of this and even some of the investigators from the state department, and the diplomatic security investigation unit who are apologetic about it, and saying that they are feeling pressure to make these inquiries. >> and yeah, we felt it is important and a consistent account from nearly everybody that we talked to in the story investigating and interviewed by the state department investigators that they, the state department officials were made it clear they were doing it only reluctantly and at the

direction of some external force. >> all right. well, as always, greg miller, great reporting there in the washington post, and thank you for phoning in, we appreciate that. new today, a former homeland security adviser rips into the president's phone call with president zelensky, and the president's push into the conspiracy theory that ukraine and not russia hacked the election, and also saying that he is disappointed in rudy giuliani's part of this. >> and so the debunct theory to the president. it is sticking to his mind when he is hearing it over and over again, and for clarity here, george, let me again repeat that it has no validity. the united states government reached its conclusion on attributing to russia the dnc hack in 2016 before it even communicated it to the fbi and long before the fbi ever knocked on the door at the dnc.

>> and join manage se john cipher, a former member of the intelligence service, and a former world wide operation. and so i am sure that you are on the same page as us here on msnbc that we have no intent to unmask this whistle-blower, and msnbc is only reporting that it is a cia employee, and why is the president latching on the conspiracy theory, and to deflect away from the russia's culpability for some reason? >> i don't think that it deflects from russia's culpability, but the opposite. if we can remember that the theorys are pushed from the russian, and the russians are pushing the theory that the ukrainian officials are involved and crowdstrike is fake, and even the biden thing is something that pro russian forces are pushing in ukraine and elsewhere. so when the president of the united states continues to amplify the stories, he is

playing along with the russia propaganda and russian misinformation and he has a massive government that works for him, and providing information from the justice department, and the cia and the intelligence service and the state department of what happened in 2016, and instead, he is continuing to support these russian disinformation theories and so does he trust what russians tell him more than what americans are telling him. >> so you have worked at the cia and is that unusual for a cia employee to take on a whistle blower person have to concern that what they would do to come forward with this? >> well, it is taking a lot of courage, and we have seen this. it can damage their career and make it difficult for them with friends and family and difficult for them to get jobs afterwards and this person obviously thought that he or she had heard enough information, and they had to act and they could not be and they thought that they would be complicit if they did not take

this seriously, and report this. so i give them a lot of credit. most whistle-blower information that doesn't go that high and deal with the president of the united states but we are taught and know that when we go there we have the avenues open to us if we see waste, fraud, abuse or corruption. >> so do you -- some in congress have expressed concern about the p protections for the whistle-blower to the point that you are trying to make. and what could this person face if identity is revealed publicly? >> well, you had greg miller on talking about the washington post story, and i think that if you are reading that, and it is chilling. you know, there is people out there, and sort of the crazy theories looking to uncover these thing, and they believe they have been empowered by people around the united states to go after these people that they call them deep state operaties and, you know, democratic operatives and this is a public servant working on behalf of the united states who

did things exactly the right way. they wanted to keep the information secret and in the proper channels and inform the leadership and the congress of what they learned. that is what a good intelligence officer should do. so this notion that people are going to go after this person, i can imagine if this person's name comes out that they and their families are not going to be safe. >> and as we get into the complaint itself, john, what is your take on the notion that the special service used for top secret files, and couldn't the trump administration simply decide to use it for something else? what is that all about? >> well, it is simply trying to hide these things, and cut down on the distribution of this kind of information. now, of course, they do have a real claim in the fact that there has been a lot of leaks from this white house, and tons of leaks. so you will see the reporters like you and from the washington post and new york times often have numerous sources when they are reporting things that are happening inside of the white house, and their concern for security is legitimate, however in this case, if they believe

that the president did something inappropriate and then put it on another server to try to limit it or hide it from people, then they are simply going to try to protect themselves, and that is misusing the classification system. now if they talked about something classified and put it on the system, that is appropriate. sorry. >> that is quite all right. and the post reported a scramble if you will among the pro trump sleuths trying to unmask the whistle-blower and what is concerning you about the crowd sourced effort to have an unbridled effort at unmasking? >> well, this is serious stuff, because the people's lives and families are at risk here, and having people who are partisan and tribal and hyped up on this stuff believe that they should try to unmask somebody who has done things properly through the proper channels, and i think that is dangerous, and so it is not so much that the white house finds out who this person is or

that inside of the government it is known, and perhaps hurts this person's career, but if it gets out into the public and the people, and we have seen people, you know, who want to shoot up places and go attack people for things, and so, we have had people like snowden and others who have abused the system and gone public with things or run off to russia with thing, and some people have gone into espionage to make their point, but this person did what they were supposed to do through the proper channels that should be respect and protect and deal with the information as it comes. >> you did exactly what i hoped that you would do in our conversation. thank you for illuminating it for us. and so we will talk what about the brand-new polls say about impeachment, and why it is tough for the white house to reverse that narrative.

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we go now to new polls on impeachment, and fiery storm from ukraine with a new poll just release and it says that 55% says that america approves of the inquiry to president trump and part of the upward moving trend seen in multiple polls, but it also finds that less americans are concerned that the president deserves impeached over ukraine, and 42% say he deserves it, and 32% disapprove, and there are undecide

undecided 22%. so now, we join in our panel. welcome all of you, and we will go ladies first, lauren, and talk about the shift in the public opinion in favor of the impeachment to varying degrees, at least the inquiry, and we found the maris poll up 10 points since may, and politico morning consult poll up seven points in the last week, so how difficult for the white house to counter this trend? >> well, it is going to be a bit difficult i do think, but one thing that i want our viewers to remember that the 55% number does consider 45% that does not support impeachment, and with that said, the developments of the last week are frankly stunning. we are in a whole new era as far as it relates to any sort of impeachment inquiry, and i think that the 55% is the reason that you are seeing a lot of republicans in the u.s. senate stay mum about what they think

about the inquiry, because it is possible that this could gain momentum and it could become a lot more popular and politically, we will see where it goes, and i think that is why you are seeing a lot of the republicans stay quiet for now. >> yeah, but that is a for now, because to that point that you are making, there is also 22% saying, yeah, a little bit too soon to say, and so as more information comes in, and you add that the deserves kol lem, and philippe, talk about the gap between those who support the impeachment inquiry and those who believe that the president should be impeached over ukraine and your thoughts of where this stands in the court of public opinion? >> well, it is a few things. first, it is a complicated issue, and impeachment is rash, and it is good that people are inherently reluctant and have a high bar of needing to be convinced, but there is also something about how identifiable this last lapse is. and you know, chris is so better to talk about this in the case

that up until recently, he was reluctant about impeachment. this is different in the sense that one, trump was hiding it. so unlike three years ago when he said, russia, if you are listening, go ahead and get her e-mails and everybody laughed at, like, who the hell breaks the law in the light of day and then russia did go to hack her e-mail. and here he is busted and saying nit secre it in secret and in a non-subtle way and forward looking. one thing to say, okay, what happened happened and who he is who he is, and he is here, so move forward, this is someone continuing to plot going for waforward and the spike of the numbers and we don't need 100%, but we need 67 votes in the senate ax, and there is a lot of math and dynamic to go into it, but the changes are significant, but it is proof that the minute that people are educated about

something, it spikes. we saw it with mueller, and we saw it when mueller made indictments and the whole point of the impeachment is to educate. >> and chris, do you want to respond to philippe saying that, where are you right now on the prospect of the impeachment or at least the inquiry? >> until 10 days ago, alex, i believed that the overall oversight process would be enough to keep this president in check. it is very clear that for democrats, not having done something significant, and not only after the mueller investigation, and even before then has enabled the president's bad behavior and empowered him to continue to take these actions, and to address more broadly the issue of impeachment, it is important to look historically. impeachment is never popular and going back to the nixon administration, 19% of americans supported the impeachment when the watergate hearings began and rose to 77% when he was removed from office, but it is a

substantial number of people who don't back impeachment, and so it is important to understand that the public support will grow or not grow depending on how the evidence comes out, but what is striking about this is how quickly the numbers have grown, and that is in part because of the seriousness of the allegations as well as the new media landscape that we are operating in right now. >> and i'm curious, philippe, you have new democrats who are trying to keep a solid tone on the impeachment, but last night, there is a moment that i will play from minority leader chuck schumer and take a listen. >> we are entering a delicate time in the democracy, and i want all of you to know that i have been speaking with speaker pelosi constantly, and i fully support her decision to open an impeachment inquiry into president trump! >> okay. your reaction to that tone. is that at all dangerous? i mean, the emphasis, felipe, and the cheers in the background

and what do you think? >> i mean, listening to the clip, i almost got out of my chair right now and started cheering and part of it is because it is frustrating for the reasons that chris has identified. this is where there has not been any lack of evidence of what has been going on in the last there's not been any kind of b lack of evidence of what has been going on the last 2 1/2 years and even before that in the campaign. there's been a great deal of frustration starting with the speaker. and really the entire democratic leadership in the house. understandably reluctant to take something so serious, but having the direct -- you know, it's causal. when you don't punish someone, they're going to keep doing it. look, donald trump is a child. if you don't tell a child that if they don't stop playing with their toys in the middle of the gutter, i'm going to take it away from you. he's going to keep not only playing in the gutter, he's going to take his toys to the highway because that's who he is, to continue to test boundaries. and it was remiss to not slap

him back along the way and here we are. so i think people in that setting were just gratified that there is a sense of justice and that justice is going to be pursued. >> i want to ask both of you. house minority whip steve scalise pushing this line on the whistle-blower complaint. take a listen to him. >> there were a lot of things if you read the whistle-blower report that are concerning in terms of allegations that were very partisan. in fact, the justice department, or the inspector general, determined that the whistle-blower does have a political bias. you know, again, let him go forward and make accusations but a lot of these accusations have turned out to not be true. >> lauren, you first. how important should political bias be when interpreting whistle-blower complaints? >> i am not interested in the way we got to the white house revealing what was said in that call. i'm interested in the meat of

that call. in that call a sitting president asked a foreign leader for political dirt on a political opponent. and that to me is very concerning. >> chris, final word to you. >> the republican playbook has been the first to attack this as hearsay. now that that failed they're looking for bias. everything the whistle-blower has said has been corroborated and corroborated by the president of the united states. it just shows they're going to attack the messenger because the allegations against the president are so serious. >> thank you so much. great chat. appreciate it. we're going to talk about this calendar with a former assistant watergate special prosecutor who she wants to hear from most and what she wants to ask them coming up. e relaxing fg you're getting the best price. these'll work. the utter delight of free wi-fi... . oh man this is the best part. isn't that you? yeah. and the magic power of unlocking your room with your phone. i can read minds too. really?

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welcome, everyone. from msnbc headquarters. house democrats ramping up their impeachment inquiry of the president. as those investigative efforts are intensifying, representative jayapal told me there's a lot to work with already that president trump has put out in the open. >> we should not be trying to find a secret smoking gun. donald trump is the smoking gun. he admitted exactly what he did and everything that is described in the call record in the whistle-blower complaint backs up what he said.

he literally bragged about trying to get -- you know, actually putting pressure on a foreign country to dig up dirt to interfere in the 2020 election and benefit president trump. adam schiff now revealing the whistle-blower will testify very soon on the complaint that has set this entire investigation into motion. >> that whistle-blower will be allowed to come in and come in without a justice department or white house telling the whistle-blower what they can and can't say. we'll get the unfiltered testimony of the whistle-blower. it will depend probably on how quickly the director of national intelligence committee can clear the security process for the whistle-blower's lawyers. we're ready to hear from the whistle-blower as soon as that done. >> they scheduled depositions with five senior state department officials over the next few weeks. as they keep adding more

witnesses, president trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, is vowing not to participate if called upon. >> i wouldn't cooperate with adam schiff. i think adam schiff should be removed. if they remove adam schiff, put a neutral person in, a democrat that hasn't expressed an opinion yet, if i had a judge in a case and he had already announced i'm going to impeach, if he already went ahead and did a whole false episode, would i -- wouldn't i move to recuse that judge? >> meanwhile we're getting a look at what the american people think of the ukraine scandal. a brand-new abc news/ipsos poll are surprised to hear president trump and 60% feel it's a serious problem that the president did so. these new numbers come as house speaker nancy pelosi just told democrats in texas last night that public opinion is shifting on impeachment. we'll start off this hour with nbc white house correspondent

kelly o'donnell, reuters correspondent jeff mason and steph kite from axios and i'll be speaking with al green who has three times filed articles of impeachment against this president. kelly, a good day to you. the white house today appears to be laying out something of a defense strategy. it seems to be centered around the whistle-blower. what's the latest on all this? >> certainly, alex, there's a lot of pushback and challenge to the whistle-blower. that's aided by the fact that we don't know who the whistle-blower is. that's inherent in the protections that come under the law with being a whistle-blower. we only know that this is a person deemed credible by the inspector general to make this complaint. what the white house has been arguing and allies of the president, that this person didn't have direct knowledge. they aren't addressing the fact that the complaint provide details and information that have been borne out and corroborated by other pieces of information provided by the white house.

and so as this goes forward, if ultimately the house intelligence committee hears directly from the whistle-blower, that will provide more insight about what that person knew and how they learned about it. that would likely be behind closed doors. i think that's an important distinction when we have seen so many hearings in front of the camera and public. certainly with a whistle-blower whose identity is protected when chairman schiff talks about hearing from that person, that would be not in a public setting. what we got today from an ally of the president in lindsey graham, also the chairman of the senate judiciary committee and a top policy adviser to the president, stephen miller, is a pushback on where did this complaint come from and are there motivations about it? >> the president is the whistle-blower here. the president of the united states is the whistle-blower. and this individual is a saboteur trying to undermine a democratically elected

government. >> saboteur. is he a spy? is he committing treason? >> i do not know that. >> the president said that, you know. >> the president correctly pointed out that the behavior of this individual is close to a spy. >> i think this whole thing is a sham. i can't believe we're talking about impeaching the president based on an accusation based on hearsay. who is this whistle-blower? what bias do they have? why did they pick this whistle-blower to tell a hearsay story? >> one of the reasons there are protections written into the law and specific definitions around who can be a whistle-blower is to protect the identities of those who come forward and to protect their employment and so forth. inevitably in these controversies, they get attacked. we're apparently in that phase now with some veracity from the president and allies of the president. >> kelly o'donnell starting us off. joining me, jeff mason and steph kite, a reporter for axios.

jeff, your take on the defense coming out of the white house. >> it's sort of in line with the president and the white house's strategy to push back against things they don't like. there's an effort to discredit at the very gipi inbeginning wh the way, only a week ago the president started by saying, no, this didn't happen and then he said, yes, it did. but there's nothing wrong with it. and then they start attacking the people, in this case the whistle-blower who revealed what had happened in the first place. so, i think it's part of a playbook. the playbook, no doubt, will have to change a little bit because this situation is different from previous crises they have had to face. the fact an impeachment inquiry has started is more than just casting shame or blame on the whistle-blower. that's something we'll see unfold in the coming weeks. >> you're saying the white house is aware of this fact that this

is different. what does that say about the tenor of things right now inside the white house this is. >> i'm just saying that is something they have to be aware of because this is not just -- this is not just controversy. this is not just criticism of the president. the fact that nancy pelosi, speaker of the house came around in support of an impeachment inquiry and set the wheels in motion for that means the white house now has to have its own wheels in motion for a potential defense that is more than just a discussion in the theater of public opinion. >> so, steph, you heard congressman schiff saying today the whistle-blower will, indeed, be testifying before the committee pending, of course, security clearances and making sure his or her identity can be kept as secret as possible. that said, how significant is this? what does it tell us about how quickly they're moving forward? >> they're quicertainly moving quickly. house democrats see the momentum and they're taking action as quickly as they can. we know there will be a series

of testimonies from state department officials mentioned in the whistle-blower complaint. of course, the whistle-blower themselves will be testifying most likely in a closed-door session. we know that will happen. axios has reported that the house intelligence committee will also be coming back from recess so they can have a hearing that will feature the intelligence community, the inspector general is the one who sent the letter to the director of national intelligence about the whistle-blower report. there's a lot of things going on right now. we'll see a lot of different testimonies from people involved in this issue. i was talking to a democratic aide earlier today and they said they're trying to get this done by the end of the year. whether or not that's actually possible, we're certainly see them move as quickly as possible to get this done. >> steph, can the committee keep and guarantee that the whistle-blower's identity remain secret? i mean, there's a lot of risks that come with this testimony.

>> absolutely. it certainly is seem like there are a lot of people trying to figure out -- trying to find the identity of this whistle-blower. we're seeing reports of those on the far right, on the internet trying to figure out who this person is. the more -- more of a limelight there is on a whistle-blower, the more likely it is that we may see -- figure out who this person is. that comes with danger to the whistle-blower and to future whistle-blower. if there is so much emphasis on finding out who this person is, that comes with potential damage to the person who has spoken out in this situation but also can have further implications in future scenarios where there would need to be a whistle-blower coming forward and pointing out where the government has done something questionable. >> indeed. i want to get both of your reaction to the new poll which goes 55% of americans saying they approve of the fact that congress has opened an impeachment inquiry into the president. jeff, do you think this makes the president or his aides

nervous looking at these pole numbers? >> i suspect the president and his aides are probably dismissing poles in general because that's been their m.o. in general. and to some extent with good reason, looking at the polls in 2016. the president usually does that now. that said, you know, the president has been dismissive of the entire process and said it's another witch hunt but this is also a president who believes he has a pretty singular place in american history and believes he's done, as he continues to say, more than any other president in the first 2 1/2 years of his term in office. it can't be something that he's happy about that the word impeachment is now going be to be attached in some way to him. to get back to your earlier question, yeah, i think there's concern but i think in terms of polls specifically, that's something he's going to dismiss. >> do you think, jeff, that ultimately this ends with a

conviction on impeachment in the house -- rather, a recommendation for impeachment, but not a conviction in the senate? >> i think looking at the numbers it's very unlikely there will be a conviction in the senate. as we see, any republican sort of start to distance themselves from president trump, that would be a sign that, perhaps, a conviction were possible but we just haven't seen that. you've seen senators like mitt romney who have been willing to criticize the president before. criticizing here. but you definitely do not see an exodus of support from president trump's base and that includes his party members in the senate. >> as we take a look at these numbers, a, is the public tide shifting as nancy pelosi has alluded to and, b, if it does shift in favor of impeachment, how much might that affect the senate in the way it would ultimately go in a trial? >> there are certainly political shifts going on as we go into

2020. it does matter what the public is thinking. even among democrats have decided, yes, inquiry into impeachment is needed at this time, there is still a question of who will actually support impeachment, who are the representatives, who are the members of congress who will actually vote for impeachment. i think that's also what we need to be watching on these public polls. sure, more than half of the u.s. seems to be open to democrats looking into impeachment, but what we'll have to see is whether americans are in support of impeaching the president. that will play out in how representatives decide to vote if and when there is a vote on impeachment. there's a lot of moving parts here. there seems to be a little bit of of a shift. even on the house i was there when nancy pelosi made the announcement last week. there certainly was a lot of unity among democrats. this is something they needed to do. they needed to move forward. what happens after this is still

a question in whether there is -- whether republicans will benefit in 2020 is a question people are discussing. >> listen, what a difference a week has made, let alone the difference in the near future. good to see you both. thanks, guys. in a moment, congressman al green filed articles of impeach imagainst president trump three times. why he says congress must remove the president no matter what the polls say. ahead, rudy giuliani claims he will be the hero of the whistle-blower saga. i'll ask one of his colleagues what he thinks of giuliani sleuthing. tv announcer: it's just as powerful as the lexus rx... as many safety features as the rx, the new... the lexus rx has met its match. if they're talking about you... you must be doing something right. experience the style, craftsmanship,

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new today, brand-new numbers show favor shifting to impeachment. 55% of americans approve the fact that congress has opened an impeachment inquiry into president trump. joining me now is texas represent ative al green. let's get into this. you were the first democrat to publicly call for trump's impeachment way back in 2017. you've even put articles of impeachment on the house floor. you've seen them fall through. how do you feel now? you see the numbers, you watch the support growing as well as within your caucus. what's on your read on things? >> well, thank you for having me. greatly appreciate the opportunity. and i would add to your initial commentary that the honorable maxine waters has been right there at the genesis of this as

well. and i rarely use another person's name without p permission, but i think i know her well enough to do this. with how does it feel, this is not a moment i relish. it's not something that i wanted to see come to fruition. it is something we had to bring to fruition because of the harm that the president of the united states of america was causing and this harm was permeating society. still is. the president is a corrupting influence. he has corrupted the justice department. mr. barr is but a sycophant. we've seen this throughout other agencies where we now have people who come before congress and be defiant, will not give testimony, will be rude, crude and unrefined, will show they

genuinely believe that the president has their backs simply because he does have the power, as you know, to give persons relief while he is in office. >> congressman, there are still ten democrats that don't support the impeachment inquiry. what would you like to say to them? how do you get all of your democratic colleagues on board with this? >> i never felt you have to have 100% to do a job well. i think we have to work with the people who are of the conscience of the mind that this is something that we must do. and i've never lobbied members of congress to be a part of this. when we started initially with the first vote on the floor, we had 58 members and then we had 66 and then 95. and i think quite candidly, that helped to give members a sense of where we were with this process. so i would say to anyone, vote

your conscience, vote your convictions. this is something that history will judge us all on. let history reflect what your conscience dictated. >> congressman, you have filed three articles of impeach imagainst this president. how do you feel about the party narrowly focusing the focus to just the call with ukraine. is that enough or does the democratic party need to come from multiple different angles when it comes to impeachment? >> i think the option is still on the table to do this. i don't think is an absolute we'll have but one angle as it were. but i do think this is impeachable. i think that what the president has done with the president of ukraine is clearly impeachable. i don't want us to dilly-dally. this is something we should confront head-on. we have a whistle-blower who is

coming forth now. and the anonymity of the person has to be maintained. but i am absolutely convinced this is something we should move forward on. of course, we can't preclude bringing in other articles because the president on any given day may do something that will exceed what has already been done. >> how much political pressure is there to get this over to the senate by a certain time? how does that factor into the big picture? >> i think that we do want to move such that the public won't conclude that we're stalling in some way. i've had many people say this to me. i think we need to move forward while there is attention being cool to the issues of the ukraine incident. i think we need to get it to the senate so they'll have the opportunity to act. we can't guarantee any results but i want them the opportunity to act. >> there is a sense it needs to be finished by the end of

december. do you think that's rushing it too much? could you live with this inquiry going through next spring, perhaps, if that's what it takes? >> i will live with whatever it takes. i do think that we would be served well if we can do it judiciously and do it with the kind of fairness that is contemplated and do it before the end of the year. i think that would be a very good thing. i will live with whatever we have to do because if we find extraordinary facts that have to be pursued, then i don't believe that we should simply ignore them. i think this whistle-blower may bring forth evidence that has to be pursued. but i don't want us to get too far away from the initial thing that has given us probable cause to pursue this. that is that conversation the president had with the president of ukraine. >> i'd like you to take a listen, sir, to what the. the had to say earlier this week

about your party's impeachment efforts. here's what he said. >> what these guys are doing, democrats are doing to this country are a disgrace. they're going to tie up our country. we can't talk about gun regulation. we can't talk about anything because, frankly, they're so tied up, they're so screwed up. nothing gets done except when i do it. >> is there anything about the president's words there that you think may resonate with the. you be? >> well, the president has a certain base that this may resonate with. it resonates with people who are wa not going to abandon him regardless of what he does. he's already given us the example of walking out on fifth avenue. i think other members of the public are starting to see this is harmful to society, his behavior. and for him to claim that we

won't get anything else done ignores the fact that we already have bills pending before the senate, that the senate won't take up related to gun violence. it ignores the fact that we've already done legislation on voting rights. we've done our work in the house and we can walk, chew gum, talk and think at the same time. we can do other things while getting this thing, which is of paramount importance done. and i think we will. >> texas congressman al green, it's awfully good to see you again. thank you much. >> it's an honor to be with you. now to new legal concerns, along with seven others implicated in the whistle-blower's complaint. joining me former assistant watergate prosecutor and msnbc contributor, jill weinbanks. who else in the president's orbit, whether mentioned in that complaint or not, who would you hear from?

you can give me your top three people. >> let me start by saying i don't trust any of the people who are named in this complaint to be honest, to tell the truth and do anything other than what corey lewandowski did, which is to obstruct and obfuscate. i would call people who have the facts and who have the bravery to come forward. i would call the whistle-blower and the whistle-blower's sources who i am hoping will also be brave enough to not just tell the whistle-blower but to tell the congress what's going on so that action can be taken on that. that would be one of the first groups of people i would want. based on the breaking news just now about this ridiculous reopening of the hillary clinton email scandal that wasn't a scandal, that was totally nothing. there was no there there. i would call state department officials to find out about, one, the retro active

reclassification of classified information that was sent to her, that was not classified when sent and now being retro actively being done which means she's being held to a standard she couldn't have known about. that's something we don't allow in america, is retro active criminality. so, i would call people from the state department to talk about that. i would call mcgahn after the courts have ruled so that i was prepared to really question him in the proper way. i might call the ukrainian prosecutor to show, number one, how many times rudy giuliani came to interfere in ukrainian politics and this investigation. and also to show there was no evidence that showed any violation by joe biden because i think he's being smeared unfairly by the trump administration and that someone has to clear him because he didn't do anything.

there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by vice president biden and i might call other foreign leaders who would say he's doing exactly what we wanted him to do. we thought the prosecutor that he was trying to get removed was standing in the way of all corruption investigations and we needed corruption invest grea d ininvestigated. we applaud what he did. as opposed to trump saying, let's get rid of the prosecutor who's not bringing charges against joe biden. let's bring in somebody who will do it. let's phoney up the results and let's get this going. that's the option. >> despite the fact there's the expectation of the white house pushing back on this investigation, adam schiff says, you know what, this might help us make our case for obstruction of justice. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> the president can't have it both ways. he can't both prevent us from getting evidence on these serious underlying crimes or potential crimes, this serious

breach of his oath of office and at the same time obstruct our investigation. so even as he tries to weaken our ability of facts on one, he's going to strengthen the facts on another. >> what do you see as being the stronger case against the president? >> there are, as you noted, so many impeachable offenses. i think the american people need to have us focus on a limited number of them. not just one because you need to see a pattern of misbehavior. >> is there something you think is the most egregious that pops out to you? >> i think the contempt of congress in some ways is the most egregious because it goes beyond trying to stop the investigation of the russia wrongdoing. it goes beyond any criminal conduct of his. and it goes to, for example, he hasn't let people come testify about his immigration policies. he has obstructed ordinary, routine oversight. and our fundamental principles

of government require separation of powers and a checks and balances. and if congress can't act as a check and balance, we're heading to becoming a banana republic instead of a democracy. that's why that to me is very important. i think the interference asking a foreign government was such a clear violation of our foreign policy as well as our federal election laws and, by the way, letting the federal election commission basically lapse. there isn't a quorum. they can take no action. and yet we know that there are violations of the election laws. so, i think we're seeing the destruction of democracy, the rule of law and unlike richard nixon who ultimately did believe in the rule of law and ultimately resigned rather than put us through this tragedy, i don't see that happening here. >> i think there are a lot of people that don't see that happening here. thanks for weighing in. the president's personal

attorney rushing to his boss's defense. new questions about whether rudy giuliani could be in legal trouble himself.

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i'm a lawyer. it's his privilege, not mine. if he decides he wants me to testify, of course i'll testify, even though i think adam schiff is an illegitimate chairman. he's already prejudged the case. if he wants fairness here, we have to put somebody in charge of that committee who has an open mind. not somebody who wants to hang the president. >> the president's personal attorney, of course, rudy giuliani, this morning on whether he would cooperate with the house intelligence committee as part of its impeachment inquiry. at the center of the investigation is a whistle-blower complaint in which rudy giuliani is named 31 times. some of giuliani's former doj colleagues told nbc they believe his conduct likely broke the law. one of those colleagues, former federal prosecutor john flannery is joining me right now. you know g rudy giuliani. you worked to work alongside him. what was your reaction to everything you saw this week? >> well, it's been a long time coming the levels of disappointment with rudy. when i first knew him, i thought he was the kind of fellow we

would find on the supreme court in his bobby kennedy days before he went to washington. now i see a guy that you should be arrested for impersonating a criminal defense attorney, if that tape you played is any indication of how he sees himself as a defense attorney. none of what he's talking about is privileged because he's talking third-party. i'm sorely disappointed because it appears he's committing violations against the national security of this nation while pretending to be a hero. it's quite daunting, to say the least. >> let's take a look at some of what he said as he was making the rounds on the tv circuit this week. take a listen to this. >> you bet. >> did the president threaten to cut off aid to ukraine. >> no, no. that was a false story. >> 100%? >> well, i can't tell you if it's 100%. >> you know, you haven't practiced law since 1982. >> then i've been doing it illegally. >> did you read the transcript? >> it was read to me. >> it was read to you, the whole

thing. >> i hope. >> the president did bring up joe biden on the call? >> maybe he didn't bring it up. could be possible the president of ukraine brought it up. >> so, if he -- >> does your relationship with pompeo good? >> if you're unhappy with me, i'm sorry, but i accomplished my mission. >> you actually usually say incredibly stupid things. >> you know the law -- >> shut up. shut up. >> okay. >> john, can you make out a method to what he is doing there or do you think he's digging himself into a hole? i mean, what's behind his behavior? >> well, it sounds like desperation. you know, it's a word salad of accusations that he throws out at people. and he's also factually incorrect repeatedly. for instance, he said he had read to him what the transcript was. one of the points of the transcript says, we have zelensky saying we're almost ready to buy more javelins from

the united states for defense purposes. they're talking about being defended against russia given the invasion they had into crimea and the javelin is a certain missile that would protect them against the tanks and military cruisers that cost them 13,000 dead and something like 30,000 injured. this was really important when the white house was withholding93 million from ukraine, which they would use to then buy these javelins. in the next sentence after that statement by the president, mr. trump says, i would like you to do us a favor, though. so that's the very next thing he says after the head of ukraine says, we need these javelins. he's saying, well, i've got a problem here. what is the problem? the problem is i want you to investigate biden and his family. if you do that, then you'll get the funds and you'll get the javelins. the senate got upset. by september they had forced the funds to be released.

until that time it was being withheld. t they were being withheld because they wanted him to conduct an investigation favorable for the purposes of -- >> you saw, perhaps, that press conference when he was sitting next to president trump during the white house visit and he said, no, no, everything was fine. we didn't feel pressure. >> yes, well, if i coerce you to do something, putting your nation at risk and i tell you that i'm going to give you the support you need while i'm president and appear to do anything i want uncontrolled by the house, the senate, by prosecutors or anyone, what do you do for your nation? so, i do not credit what he said. he was pressured. we have the evidence in the same memo that rudy says, well, it may have said this and may have said that. it says what i just read to you. >> you just read. do you think rudy giuliani is in

legal jeopardy, my last question to you? >> absolutely. we have a combination of bribery, the foreign corrupt practices act at richl here because we're paying favor of withholding funds and expecting a condition precedent that favors the president favorably before the funds are given and we also have efforts to conceal the very document we had in this conversation by people in the white house. we have the state department involved. we have the justice department involved. this is a major scandal and hopefully by halloween we'll figure out how to identify the articles of impeachment that correspond to this. >> thank you. hillary clinton going public with her take on the impeachment inquiry. will it be helpful or harmful to the democrats' cause? ats' cause

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new developments to share on the impeachment. democrats with a new strategy for combating obstruction as president trump's allies try to flip the script. here's senator lindsey graham today. >> i have zero problems with my phone call. there's no quid pro quo here. i do have a problem with nancy pelosi. if you believe that donald trump did something to hurt this country, not talk about impeaching the president, quit hiding behind nancy pelosi. if you think the president did something wrong in this none call, then vote to open up an article of impeachment inquiry and a lot of house democrats

want because they're afraid. >> joining me now, adrian elrod, msnbc contributor and republican political consultant, contributing host to vox media considerate who worked on mitt romney's campaign. welcome both. good to see you both here. let's start with things with you. your response to that line of attack from senator graham. why aren't democrats voting to officially open an inquiry given that that does create an opening for republicans to undercut their message. >> yeah, first of all, lindsey graham, every time he goes on television, every time he talks to a reporter in the hallway, he sounds more and more pathetic. i don't know what other term to use for this. the republican playbook is so obvious, so transparent. everything from opening this investigation spew hillary clinton's emails to going on television and criticizing nancy pelosi, who, by the way, is beloved by both democrats and republicans, especially given

the way she's handled so far this potential impeachment process. in regards to an inquiry, let's see what happens over the next two weeks. we know adam schiff and members of the intelligence committee are going to be staying back in washington while congress is in recess looking at all the evidence, coming up with their plan. she wants to make sure this is done methodically and into the highest level of integrity as possible. nancy pelosi wants to make sure that when this inquiry is actually officially opened that it is done the right way and there are no stones unturned and she's doing this the way it should be conducted. >> what about the claim from senator graham there that he doesn't see anything wrong with the president's phone call. he says there's no quid pro quo. is that either a viable defense for republicans or his admission that they don't have much to work with in constructing any sort of defense? >> that would be my line of argument, alex, if i were a republican, i would focus on two

very distinct things. earlier you were talking about that recent cbs poll. if you look at that poll, alex, more than a majority of americans actually believe -- 51% believe democrats will be too distracted to focus on other policy issues because of this impeachment process. that's one thing they could focus on. the second thing i think is interesting in that same poll is about 34% think this will benefit democrats during the 2020 election cycle. 34% actually believe it may benefit trump. about 36% believe it won't have a benefit one way or the other. >> but those last numbers, don't you have to allow for the fact that this is the beginning of an inquiry? >> no, no. the point i'm trying to make by citing those numbers is we know where democratic voters are with this. we know where republican voters are. however, it's the folks in the middle that i think both sides of the political spectrum here are going to be trying to target. one, democrats to move the needle and their advantage but

republicans to move the needle to say, hey, you care about health and -- health care, you care about the economy. those are the things that we should be focused on, the things that actually impact you every single day, not this. that's a better argument for the republican party. >> there is a new strategy that house intel chair adam schiff laid out. democrats ready for the white house to try to stonewall again. here's what schiff said about how that would play out under the umbrella of this impeachment inquiry. take a listen. >> here's the problem for the administration with that strategy, and that is, even as they try to undermine our ability to get to the bottom of the full facts of how he was coercing ukraine to dig up dirt on his opponent or manufacture it, they will be strengthen, the case for an article of impeachment based on obstruction of the lawful functions of congress. and so they can't have it both ways. if they're going to obstruct, then they're going to increase the likelihood that congress may feel it necessary to move forward with ab articn article

obstruction. >> do you think it would help democrats to have this case of obstruction or is this a bit of last resort? >> i think what you're seeing adam schiff lay out there, the chairman of the intelligence committee, there are multiple paths the democrats -- rather, congress can take when it comes to impeachment. it's not just obstruction. there's a number of different paths democrats can take. obstruction being one of them. i want to remind everybody out there, democrats have had a lot of reasons to impeach so far. this is sort of the one that the ukraine situation, this is a situation -- this is the incident where we had no choice. leader pelosi had no choice on this. but there's been plenty of things donald trump has done throughout his presidency and before that are grounds for impeachment. >> if i could, the reason speaker pelosi didn't have a choice is because for the most part she was pressured by democrats in her caucus. from my understanding of various reporting, she was still very

hesitant days leading up to this, alex. >> and i think you're absolutely right. but i believe that when she saw a certain level of evidence of what she proved to be would be unequivocal evidence at some point, she said, now there's a green light. i want to ask you specifically, the new clip from hillary clinton taped just before "the washington post" reported that the state department is now intensifying its email probe of her former aides. here she is. she's talking about president trump's focus on her. >> i believe he knows he's an illegitimate president. he knows. he knows that there were a bunch of different reasons why the election turned out the way it did. and i take responsibility for those parts of it that i should but it was like applying for a job and getting 66 million letters of recommendation and losing to a corrupt human tornado. so, of course he's obsessed with me.

and i believe that it's a guilty conscience in so much that he has a conscience. >> she also shared her support for the inquiry. do you think it's time for hillary clinton to be re-entering the dialogue? >> she's to read. but she's saying what we all know to be true. there are a number of reasons why donald trump is not a legitimate president. one has to do with russia's sbfrn interference in the election process and one is that james comey reopen the investigation into hillary clinton's emails which caused her numbers and early vote numbers to decline. so she is talking about a number of factors that came into this election process that we on the campaign that she is a candidate had no influence over, had no control over, especially there toward the end. and i'm glad that she is making these declaration and also making it clear that president trump is so obsessed with her, i mean he talks about her all the time. anytime he is in aen paic or anytime that he has a crisis that he is trying to deal with,

oftentimes a self llself-made he pivots to hillary clinton a whole host always deflect back to the clintons. >> and if i can jump in really quickly with respect to my dear friend adrienne here, i have spoken with my friends at the congress ional committee and thy are figuring out how to use clips of hillary clinton to play in those 42, 43 seats that democrats won of a he ter beating republicans to say hey, not only are they supporting smooechlt, but hillary clinton is back involved and she is incredibly unpopular. >> that is pathetic and hillary clinton is no longer running for president. >> two friends disagreeing, but that is okay. we accept that here. thank you guys.

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helping hard-to-adopt dogs find homes. plenty of new reaction today from republicans to the launch of an impeachment inquiry into president trump. and joining me now, bruce lavelle, long time adviser to the president. bruce, welcome back to the broadcast. where are you on this, are you for an investigation but you against impeachment, are you against both, where do you stand? >> how about all of the above. this is ridiculous. i thought at least when the president had this economy rolling along, that he introduced an fruks plan of a trillion dollars, speaker pelosi said let's do 2 trillion. this is such a travesty to the american people. this is going nowhere except hurting this great democracy. the president has a right to talk to whoever he wants to. i tell you what -- >> can i stop you?

i'll grant you your focus is about small business and the economy and that is what you always deflect to. but we're talking about national security here. so the question remains, are you opposed to an investigation even? this is regarding national security. >> alex, national security based on a third party hearsay? come on. you are an award wing journ alle journalist. you don't even believe this. >> doesn't it warrant an investigation? >> you had chairman nadler make up his own words. this has gotten out of control. you're right, i pivot to small business and the economy because that is the backbone. look what we went through in 2008 and 2009. >> of course we don't want to go through that again. but that having been said, i know where your loyalties lie, your interests prongs approxima get it. but in this are regard, you have the president's defenders that say the release of these notes from the zelensky phone call

shows transparency. okay. yeah. but just because we can see it does not change the content. it is about the content, right? >> alex, the president has ongoing conversations with all types of leaders across the country. and like i said, this is based on third party. this is just so ridiculous. the president's job is to -- his sworn oath is to protect this great nation by any means necessary. now, he in-hair ritsed all this crazy stuff where for all this pay to play and he came in there with a brand new ukranian president, president zelensky, which you saw him on national tv said i was not pressured, not coerced. do you not believe him? >> the president asked him for a favor. that was in the transcript. the official transcript. >> # al. >> alex, this president ran on a campaign to not beholden to

special interests and he kept his promise. this president does not get involved in that. he is not part of this swamp. he is not part of the establishment. he is a businessman that took a lead from his business to serve this great country and he'd be dog goned if he is going to inherit this stuff with biden on national tv saying that i held this billion dollars back and then calling him an s.o.b. come on, and then 80,000 -- alex, come on. you know. you're an award winning journ allegist. you know that stings for a sitting vice president to have a son doing business with a foreign country paying $50,000 to $80,000, a billion plus dollars from china and then right on air force two sit here and act like he doesn't know what 1 going on. come on, alex 37. >> the president asked for favors all related to politics and about biden's family, what hunter had done or not. it has been debunked that he did

anything illegal. >> if the president wants to form a new relationship with the new incoming president, president zelensky, figure out what the heck is going on with previous administrations who has a history and it is on your knelt works, abc ran a world news ahead 00 this thing, is this an appearance of impropriety. this president does not stand for that. and he is draining the swamp. >> bruce, i really do love having you on december spilt everything. so we'll have another chat. but right now, kendis gibson is like cut it off, it is my turn. more on the "washington post" article next hour. > more post" article next hour. in my line of work, i come face-to-face with a lot of behinds.

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