history of american politics. the democrats want to take away your guns, they want to take away your healthcare, they want to take away your vote, they want to take away your freedom and your judges, they want to take away everything. >> and back tomorrow you go. >> wow. >> a little late night from jimmy kimmel live. >> never saw that coming, that was fast. >> welcome to "morning joe." it's tuesday, october 1st. along with joe, willie and me we have tony deutsche. professor at princeton university, eddy. an msnbc political analysts, eugene robinson and nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence, ken delanian. there is so much happening this morning so let's frame where things stand this morning into

the inquiry into president trump. we know that secretary of state mike pompeo was listening in on that july phone call between president trump and ukraine's leader. i thought he didn't know about that? >> that's not what he said. >> attorney general william barr has been asking foreign officials to help discredit the mueller probe. we know rudy giuliani has been subpoenaed by the house to turn over documents related to his communications with the trump administration officials about ukraine. and we know president trump is trying to find out the identity of the whistleblower who made thecomplaint. somebody, joe, might want to explain to the president what the concept of the whistleblower is. you don't do that, but there's so many things that you don't do. and polls are showing that people, joe, maybe aren't feeling so comfortable with these latest revelations. >> you know, they're really not. unfortunately, they're not because the president yesterday

showed, again, just how unmoored he is, not just emotionally, but with the truth. you're right about the whistleblower complaint. we're seeing it in trump media where they're just making things up whole cloth. you could look at a website that just made up a new requirement on a whistleblower complaint. and, of course, the trump media spun that up until it was proven that it was a lie, get four pinocchios and a fact check. i saw a show last night where the poor host who's been a trumpist from the very start was throwing all the mud he could up against the wall. none of it, of course, is going to stick because donald trump and his administration out of control, wildly out of control. you know on the show i was watching last night, this host even talked about joe biden

firing an investigator to cover up for hunter biden. here's what's so interesting. this was a news corps show, it was a fox news show. if they just read what the "wall street journal" has been saying for a very long time, they would have understood that "the wall street journal," their own company, was calling that a discredited story a week ago. they know that, though, but like donald trump, they're just left with lies. >> yeah. >> and, you know, willie, i've got to say, bill clinton was mast masterful in saying i'm going to continue to do my work despite being impeached. >> he did work. >> i think what helped him eventually survive and get higher poll numbers. we woke up yesterday and read news of a secretary of state who's been lying, shamefully lying to martha conspiraradeks.

and i think even more disturbingly, we have an fbi director who instead of trying to keep drugs off the street, trying to keep drugs out of our children's schools, trying to break up drug rings with this opioid crisis, he's off trying to dig up conspiracy theories in italy. >> the attorney general, yeah. >> instead of trying to keep -- >> the attorney general. instead of trying to break up gangland violence in chicago, instead of trying to stop gangs from causing the sort of rampant violence that they've been causing. what's he doing? he's going down under. he's talking about australia. again, he's trying to do everything he can to follow donald trump's domed conspiracy theories. you could say the same thing about radical islamic terrorism. that's what fib directors usually do, not this guy. he's not protecting us from the next attack. he's doing donald trump's

bidding, political bidding. he has turned -- the attorney general has turned into nothing more than an errand boy to chase down every one of donald trump's stupid conspiracy theories and that is making america less safe. >> so much worse than they thought. >> that is making us more susceptible to terrorist attacks. that is meaning that domestically we're more susceptible to gangland style attacks. that means our children are more susceptible to drugs in our school, in our neighborhoods, because the attorney general, the chief law enforcement officer of the united states of america, is not focused on keeping america safe. he's only focused on being donald trump's errand boy and chasing down conspiracy theories. i say all this just to say this

is not what you do when impeachment numbers sky rocket against you. but that's what donald trump's doing. it's bad news for him politically and bad news for republicans, but more importantly, it's really bad news for america. >> well, he's totally consumed by it. just check twitter if you have any doubt about that and he's enlisted everyone in his government. the walls are now down between the justice department and the state department. i said his government, it's not his government, it's our government. the waults are doalways are dow you have mike pompeo on the phone with raddics. you're asking me something i don't know anything about, i haven't seen the whistleblower report, that was a lie. he was on the phone call. as you say, the attorney general is flying around the world making unreported trips to places like italy to investigate american intelligence agencies to help trump. chasing conspiracy theories in the is all while the president is back home tweeting about a civil car, about arresting a

prominent member of congress for treason, and also trying to find out who the whistleblower is. maybe it's because of these new polls that show president trump's impeachment steadily growing support among americans. we have 52% now approve, the majority of the impeachment inquiry into president trump. >> gees, that's gone up. >> 52%. when it comes to impeachment and removal from office, they found a 10% increase in support over just the last week up to 47%. meanwhile, the latest cnn poll found 47% of americans say they back and removing president trump. 45% say they do not. in the latest reuters poll, 45% say the president should be impeached. that's up eight points from a week ago. meanwhile, two sources with direct knowledge of the situation told nbc news that president trump is telling allies days ago that he would start worrying about losing republican support if national polls went above 50% of american

supporting impeachment. and as we just reported in that cue poll we're at 52% supporting the inquiry. >> wow. >> 52%. willie, what's equally surprising and swrarijarring, s these polls involve the impeachment inquiry, others involve removing him from office. and we're at about a 50/50 proposition. 47% want him impeached and removed from office. he's got to be worried, but, again, the move is not to chase conspiracy theories when you're worried. don't you think, willie, that's one of the problems that republicans -- and this was reported today -- that the republicans are getting tired of donald trump's ad-hoc attacks, getting tired of the calls for civil war, getting tired of the calls for treason. you know, eric erickson preet

pretty darn conservative guy who supports donald trump said the calls for civil war are only going to turn more republicans against him. >> i think there's no question about that. i think in this case there's not so opaque mueller report that we can't see into and we're waiting to see the results. we saw last week a summary of the phone call, where americans ris , including republicans can see what he said. then we saw the whistleblower report which went into greater detail. this one you can get that polling and americans don't like what they see. >> this is what we've been saying for days. you can't complicate something that is pretty basic. now to mike pompeo's role in that july 25th phone call between president trump and the president of ukraine that is now at the center of an impeachment inquiry. a senior state department official tells the "wall street

journal" and nbc news has cop firmed the reporting that pompeo was among the administration officials who listened in on the phone call. pompeo's participation on the call hasn't been previously reported. in interviews last week, pompeo said that he hadn't read the whistleblower's complaint in its entirety but maintained that actions by the state department had been entirely appropriate. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a whistleblower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> are you confident that none of your staff, that you or none of your staff did anything improper in this whole situation?

thank you. >> so, man, i haven't had a chance to actually read the whistleblower complaint yet. i read the first couple of paragraphs and then got busy today. but i'll ultimately get a chance to see it. if i understand it right, it's from someone who had second-hand knowledge. to the best of my knowledge. and from what i've seen so far, each of the actions that were undertaken by state department officials was entirely appropriate. >> i don't know -- >> come on. >> i don't know which one of those clips is more insulting. he gui he lies in both. in the second he was talking about from what he understood the whistleblower had second-hand knowledge. and yet there he was. >> he was in the room. >> on the phone listen together conversation. he knows more than all of us know right now and yet he lied to those reporters. and let's just play the first clip again because, again, it's -- >> you can see him struggling. >> it's not just the lying, it's the arrogance. in both cases he laughs off the

question. he's so arrogant. and he's so snide. oh, you're asking me a question that he knows nothing about. i'm sorry, play the clip again. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to informant joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a whistleblower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> willie, i don't know where to start there. you just gave me a report and, again, she asked him a specific question of what do you know bethe conversation? >> he was there. >> yeah. >> he was listening in to the conversation and yet lied two times there. once at the u.n. saying i have work to do, i'm busy and this was just second-hand knowledge. again, just shows the

extraordinary bad faith that the president and all the president's men are engaged in right now. in any past administration. >> and this is what the media's up against is what democrats are up against. >> yeah. >> they're not going to tell you the truth and you have to assume that. >> in any past administration, the secretary of state lying like that would be fired. in any past administration except maybe the nixon administration, an attorney general that has lied as much. >> lost credibility. >> and committed perjury in front of united states congress would be fired. you were exactly right. we are now at a point where we have to assume the secretary of state, the attorney general, the president of the united states, the vice president, they're all in on this and they're all lying. why? because they've already proven it to us. >> and the secretary of state, eddie, laughed right toy don't know what you're talking about, i haven't seen this report. but what i do know is it's second-hand and hearsay. so he hasn't read the report

because he knows aught order he should be attacking it. he said i was sent there by the state department when he went to ukraine. well that makes sense because you have the head of the state department on the call helping president trump direct this back and forth, with quid pro quo with ukraine. >> what we see here is the problem that we locate principally with trump is not simply trump, trump's problem. that lying with impunity is, in fact, the culture of the white house. that truth, that old colbert word has become the order of the day. it seems to me when you combine this culture of lying with this deep distrust of government that runs throughout the country, right, it seems that we're in a moment of intense crisis. not just simply with them and all the president's men, but this crisis in terms our democracy as such. because you've got to have trust as the basis, as the foundation for democratic deliberation.

when you have folks lying to you day in and day out and folks not trusting what's coming out of their mouths, i don't know how we move to the next stage. >> you know, donny deutsch, we predicted that 2008 for t predicted how 2018 for the house would be bad. mika was talking about how republicans would help them win the senate. but in this case it's so very obvious that the republican brand every day is being tarnished badly by pompeo lying, barr lying, the president lying. all of this, it's one scandal after another. by the way, again, these are scandals that are unfolding in plain view of the american people. if this were a deep state conspiracy, 55% of americans would support an impeachment inquiry. these numbers wouldn't -- so this is what -- this is what i want to know. when does the republican party, whether do republican senators, when do republican house members

instead of retiring, because they don't want to lose in 2020, are p or put up with donald trump anymore, what when do they say, hey, wait a second, we need to get rid of these guys that are lightning lying on national tv every day, damaging our reputation and we can get nikki haley or marco rubio or, you know, john thune or, you know, you name it. we could find other people who are not, you know, mitt romney, other people who don't make lying their m.o. every day. i mean, when do they do that? because you've worked with brands that have faced crises and they had to get rid of their ceo and bring in new ceos and clean things up. at what point do republicans just say, hey, it is time? >> you know, remember that movie mayor than man where is it safe? is it safe?

i think we're getting to that point where it's safe for republicans. you use the word unfolding. in the last day six stories ranging from the president tweeting about civil war, saying that adam schiff should be held for treason, which means executed. rudy giuliani is being subpoenaed. we found out barr was over in italy. we found the president was on with the australian prime minister trying to get more dirt. this is just one day. i do believe, and everybody keeps saying oh, the republicans never going to appeal. never going appeal. for the exact reason you said, not only does it get to a point where you can't run cover, they see even if he doesn't get impeached out of office, he's a loser in 2020 and let's start to get behind it. nikki haley beats every democrat that's out there right now. mitt romney beats every democrat that's out there right now. >> every single one. >> and that, to me -- i think we've just seen the opening credits of this stuff. all of the staffers that are involved have lawyered up already. this is just the beginning of act three. and we're already close to 50%

threshold mark. so i think the republicans are at some point, nobody wants donald trump -- they don't want donald trump there were we know that. jeff flake said 35 senators if he voted publicly they don't want him there. and i don't think we are that far -- it was interesting, mitch mcconnell said yesterday, yes, i would take the impeachment to the senate. i was assuming he was going to do merrick garland. there's a little wiggle room in there. do you have to take it to the senate? i think we're seeing the cracks and i would not be surprised if in 2020 we don't see that the republican canned date is nikki haley. >> gene, it's not like the base is with these other people, mitt romney or nikki haley. you have in donald trump a guy who in the last decade gave money to anthony weiner, gave money to elliot spitzer, gave

money to kamala harris, yes, in 2014. gave money to kamala harris. gave non hillary clinton eight times. gave money to andrew cuomo. he has been a democrat. and now because what he's doing, he's going to destroy the republican party unless they get this lifetime democrat out and put in somebody like nikki haley or mitt romney or marco rubio who have been republicans and, for the most part, conservatives their entire life. >> yeah, but you're appealing to republicans of logic and that's not the grounds on which they're making the decision to stick with trump thus far. it's their fear of, you know, you look at those polls and the shift in the numbers on impeachment suspect truly stunning. it is like almost overnight,

last week it changed. >> and by the way, one poll -- one out of three republicans nfs one poll one out of three republicans support the inquiry. that's pretty significant. >> yeah. and that's the one that, you know, that's the number to look at. because in most of the polls, you know, most republicans are sticking with them and most republicans, as long as most republicans stick with him, i think most of our republican elected officials in their craven cowardice are going to stick with donald trump. but he was listing those stories from yesterday, a lot of them in the 4:00 hour. nicolle wallace was like a paper hanger trying to deal with all that breaking news. but, you know, interesting possibilities about -- about barr and pompeo. they're really two stories here. either they're both like all in

with trump on these conspiracy theories and this craziness and illegality, frankly, that he's committing. or, they're humoring him and they're trying to just sort of contain this malevolent force of nature. either way, it's an awful dangerous situation for this country. >> well -- >> and a dangerous situation for them legally, mika. >> also dangerous that he's focused on adam schiff, threatening and focused on the whistleblower. >> civil war. >> you see him dottering around the white house trying to locate the whistleblower. something's really off. obviously we know what it is. >> mika, this is a president who has encouraged violence in the past saying beat up protesters, i'll pay for your legal fees. i've got some of the toughest people in the world. the thing is when he makes these calls for civil war, rank and file republicans aren't going to listen because they actually

understand how this republic works. but there are people that don't have guardrails up and he's sending a message to them to commit acts of violence. he's seen it before. he's seen it with the pipe bomber. he's seen it with the coast guard person who drew up a hit list of media members and his democratic challengers. >> right. >> he knows what he's doing and it's getting dangerous and out of control. >> the sooner more answers come out, i mean we've got a lot, but this is definitely -- and it's wearing on him and the behavior is impacting people because he threatens them. so let's -- i want to get ken dilanian in here to the president's extensive efforts for discredit the russia investigation. sources tell "the washington post" that william barr has been traveling the globe urging foreign intelligence officials to investigate the origins of the russia investigation. the post reports that barr traveled to italy last week with

u.s. attorney john durham who barr tapped earlier this year to investigate the investigators of the russia probe. this is really -- this is what we're talking about, believe it or not. a justice department spokeswoman would not say whether barr discussed the election inquiry. nbc news has also confirmed a report from the "new york times" that president trump asked the prime minister of australia to help barr in his effort to discredit the mueller probe. ken dilanian, i'm going to and that all to you on a tray and tell me which one stands out to you as the most important or the most concerning for our republic. >> well, i just think it's remarkable that with all that is on his plate, the attorney general of the united states is finding time to travel the world to promote this inquiry into the origins of the mueller investigators. and we really don't know what the predicate to this is. there hasn't been a krbcredible

allegation of wrongdoing. and number two, there's already an inspector general review at least of some of the ways that the fbi secured national security warrants against particular people. we don't even know if this durham thing is a criminal investigation or what is it? it's gone to the extraordinary lengths of having doj people question cia officers about their intelligence estimates. and my sources are saying to me, you know, what expertise do department of justice investigators have and how we assess whether vladimir putin ordered an operation or not? it's extraordinary. and it sends a message to our allies is another thing that my sources are telling me, that is deeply concerning. that these senior officials in the u.s. government, who's bidding are they doing? are they doing donald trump's personal political bidding or are they doing the business of the united states? >> yes. >> and there's another thing i wanted to get too, though, on this issue of second-hand

information, because these people keep repeating this. the inspector general and the intelligence community, michael atkinson who was a career justice official before he took this job put out a rather extraordinary and detailed nus ne news release where he said there was a problem with a form that the whistleblower shouldn't have only second-hand information. but he laid all this out and explained that this whistleblower actually had official and authorized access to the information and sources referenced in his letter. and the whistleblower checked the box that says i have personal and/or direct knowledge of events or records involved. and also a second box that said other employees have told me about events or records involved. so the notion that this whistleblower was simply repeating some watercooler rumor is totally false. and the icig would not have put his credibility behind this and called it an urgent concern there are is the only urgent concern for him in the past year

that's been attempted to pass on a bill. >> ken, can we just underline right now that inspector general was appointed by donald trump and the acting dni who said that the whistleblower acted in accordance with the law, was appointed by donald trump? this is not a deep state conspiracy. these are all trump appointees. some appointed in the last month or two or three or four months. trump appointees who are all saying that this went by the book. >> that is absolutely right. and joe maguire, the acting dni who was subject to some criticism from congress now seems to be in good standing because the folks i've talked to feel like he handled himself well in a difficult position in that hearing. you know, he doesn't want to trash his boss, the president of the united states.

he's fighting to keep the whistleblower anonymous and that's important. >> ken, let me ask you again about these trips the attorney general is making around the world on behalf of the president looking into american intelligence agencies and maybe there's a good answer to this, but i can't seem to find one. why is the u.s. attorney for the state of connecticut who's usually in hartford looking at insurance companies, why is he traveling the world on behalf of attorney general barr and sometimes with attorney general barr from connecticut going to italy to take these meetings? >> well, the answer to why him is a similar answer. john durham is a man who has conducted these complex and special investigations before. most notably, he took a hard look at the cia and the issue of torture and whether any cia officer should be prosecuted. he spent a long time digging into that. so he has experience with the intelligence agencies. and at the end of the day he did not file charges.

and what i found in that inquiry has remained secret to this day. so that would be the reason that he was picked. but we still don't really understand, again, the premise for this entire thing. that no one has -- and you know we're hearing rumblings from the doj that durham has found significant things that would be of interest to the american public. that may be the case, but we haven't seen any evidence so far that there is anything inappropriate or amiss about this mueller investigation. and the other thing that's extraordinary about this, this is occurring after, from trump's perspective, he dodged a bullet on mueller. there was no clear articulation of criminal charges, criminal conduct by donald trump and yet he's still obsessed with this to the point where he's sending his top officials out around the world to gather information about it. >> but, gwen e kken, you can ta all sprt theories that donald trump is chasing and he wants rudy giuliani to chase a conspiracy theory that the russians weren't involved in

that. he's got barr running around chasing conspiracy theories for him now. but if you look at the investigation, ken, they keep going back and all of trump supporters on the hill and all the trump supporters in the media, i can -- look, ken, since i'm talking to ken? thank you. it's not that i don't like looking at mika but i like to look at ken. thank you, tj. he's back and he's still ruining things for us. but it seems to me it's like this fox news show i was watching last night where the host was ranting about joe biden firing an investigator to protect hunter biden. it's been discredited. "the wall street journal" front page said it's discredited. in this case, they're talking about the steele dossier as being the improper starting point of the mueller investigation. like even the "wall street journal" editorial page said it last week, that is a lie, that

is a discredited theory. it was discredited months ago. it doesn't hold up to the most basic timeline. >> well -- >> and yet, zrufdonald trump is sending his attorney general to investigate wrongdoing and people are still waiving tving bloody flag of the steele dossier. >> imagine in if this kind of network existed during watergate. these kind of things take up a mythology and they affect the body politic and enough people ever talking about it on twitter. so people in the trump administration believe this stuff and they can't shake it. william barr is not a stupid man. mike pompeo is a west point graduate and they're still engaging in trafficking in these diskr

discredited theories. there's another figure under increased scrutiny this american. the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani has been subpoenaed by three house committees. he what he's saying about the possibility of testifying. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. g "morning" we'll be right back. when you shop for your home at wayfair, you get more than free shipping. you get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. you get fast and free shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. that's what you get when you've got wayfair. so shop now! this seat? this seat is reserved for the restless. those who need to move. and roar.

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welcome back to "morning joe." the democrats. >> referee: course, are pushing forward on their impeachment inquiry into president trump now subpoenaing trump's personal lawyer rudy giuliani. in a joint letter from house intel chairman adam schiff, oversight chair elijah cummings and eliot engel. they're seeking documents related to giuliani in efforts to get ukraine's government to investigate the biden family. in the letter the committee chairs write that they're demanding the former mayor produce text messages, phone

reports and other communications related to the matter by october 15th, two weeks. the document does not ask giuliani to testify, something he previously said he would consider doing. the president's personal attorney wrote it had been signed by only democrat chairs who had prejudged this case. giuliani adding it raises significant issues concerning legit mat legitimacy including other privileges. it will be given appropriate consideration. giuliani expanded on his tweet saying i think it's extraordinary people are asking me will i comply? no one seemed concerned this is a subpoena on an attorney. giuliani says he has not made a decision about whether he will cooperate. appearing on fox news last night, the former new york city mayor was pressed on whether he would testify to congress. >> would you testify, because i think jay sekulow is right, you don't have to do anything.

>> i'm weighing the alternatives. i'll kind of like go through it. i'll get all my evidence together, i'll get my charts. i don't know if they let me use video tapes and tape recordings that i have. if they let me get some of the evidence that i gathered -- voy to tell you, sean, all this nonagainst about interfering in the election, i gathered all this evidence before the mueller probe ended so it was clearly under my responsibility as the lawyer for the president of the united states. >> well. >> joining us now, state attorney for palm beach day of ehrenberg. let's start with the subpoena. do you see a point where rudy giuliani has to sit before a panel congress and testify himself beyond just producing these documents? some of which he's posted on twitter, text messages showing him that the state department directed him to act on ukraine. but will he sit before congress? >> he may have to.

he didn't have a legitimate privilege. attorney/client privilege would not apply here because he said repeatedly he was not working on behalf of a client. so the privilege wouldn't apply. attorney/client privilege doesn't apply to communications with third parties such as ukrainians. and even if he -- if it did apply, the fact is, he probably waived it by giving away his text messages on fox news. besides all that, it's a really bad look for giuliani to hold these secrets inside instead of disclosing it to the world because he has been out there blasting the whistleblower for allegedly having second-hand information and information that isn't accurate. well, giuliani clearly has first hand information. let's get it out there. if he doesn't there's a bit of hypocrisy there. it's a bad look. >> so, day of, how woudave, howa judge sort through, it's like

donald trump about the iraq war. donald trump can find a tweet that he says he opposed the iraq war or that he supported it. and rudy giuliani has been acting the same way. sometimes he says i'm just the president's attorney, sometimes he says i wasn't the president's attorney. sometimes he says i was working for the state department. so there you, you're a judge and every judge you've ever dealt with, if -- if he claims attorney/client privilege but he's already said publicly i wasn't there for the president, i was there for the state department, or i wasn't there for the president, i was there by myself and then of course carol merrill says if you look behind the third door it's rudy giuliani saying i was there as the president's lawyer. does -- how does a judge sort through that and does a judge just wipe all that and say, listen, no attorney client here, you said yourself publicly two times that you weren't there

acting as an attorney. >> right. right. and, remember, attorney/client privilege, by the way, you're accurate and right. attorney/client privilege only applies to communications with his client. he has said he has no client here. and the communications in question, the stuff that's been divulged to fox news and the world, involves communications with mike pompeo who is not his client or to the ukrainians, not his client. so attorney/client privilege wouldn't apply. plus, rudy giuliani has some serious legal issues. depending on what comes out, he could be part of a conspiracy to violate federal extortion or bribery laws, possibly even the foreign corrupt practices act. so he's got to be really careful here. and ultimately i don't think it's going to end well for him. >> dave and donny deutsch, let's a assume that rudy giuliani is going to say i'm not showing up. what's the legal machinations that go forward? >> contempt of court. >> which means what? contempt of court, what happens then? >> well, contempt of court and

contempt of congress. what will happen is congress will issue an order and then he will be in contempt if he violates it. i don't think it will get that far. i don't think you're going to see rudy giuliani dragged out in handcuffs. he will eventually comply and he will invoke attorney/client privilege and executive privilege. even cory lewandowski invoked executive privilege. i think will be forced to turn over the documents. i don't see he'll go to jail for that. by the way, it was said and this is not original, that the rudy giuliani of 30 years ago, the federal prosecutor would have prosecuted the rudy giuliani today. i think it's sad what has happened here. >> wow, that's so true. >> i'm glad you said that. dave ehrenberg, thank you for being with us. and, you know, willie and donny, you're two guys like me who have known rudy giuliani for quite

some time, have dealt with him up close on many issues. i mean, i actually feel sorry for the guy when i see him in the state he was in last night, when i've seen him shuffling around, confused. i am just shocked. and i know republicans that i've spoken with on the hill are shocked that donald trump is letting this guy go out as his free agent rambling around with apparently no game plan and no focus. >> yeah, i wonder who's directing this operation. you see last night you're looking on twitter rudy's going to be on fox tonight at 9:00 and you go who said let's get rudy on tv again? is it to throw smoke screens up? because every time he goes on tv there's another lie or problem for trump. >> the republicans call. cap strategy, which is basically

first you confuse, get on, that's where rudy giuliani comes in. you say any four different things. and then the trump admits it, that's the "a" part. and then "p" you point at the other guy. so this is part of that "c" strategy. the war legitimate fact come out. you put this buffoon out who just -- >> but donny, donny, hold on, you just called him a buffoon. but this is the same guy who turned new york city around with the help of the police chief and a lot of other people. one of the great -- i still think it remains one of the great governmental accomplishents of the last 50 years. while george w. bush was trying to find his footing for that week before he went up and stood on the pile and said we hear you, right? it was rudy giuliani that really was america's mayor. >> joe, i want to -- >> hold on. donny, to see that guy and see

him now, i'm not even talking about his defense of donald trump, but his decreased kpap capacities and it is sad and pathetic. it ruins his legacies but i'm wondering who's around him continuing him to go out at night and embarris himself on tj. >> this got andrew cue cuomo. did he his job. i thought he exploited it for years afterwards. >> he did his job a hell of a lot better than a lot of other people could. you have koh have said winston churchill did his job in the summer of 1940. yeah, did he his job, but did he a damn good job at it. i thiet see hhate to see his led

every single day. >> i know. we have to go. but think your question, joe's question, is there someone around him taking care of him? like he -- this is -- >> he we a >> we all know the rumors. we're not going to say it but we know the rumors. >> but we're just talking about who are the family members that can take care of this guy? >> someone needs to take care of him. it's abusive to -- >> all right. donny, thank you. can you cut donny's mic? for god sake. >> come on. >> calling the kettle black, dude. >> cut the mic. >> former senator jeff flake. >> hold on, let's listen to that. >> i'm serious, it's sad the. >> that's beautiful. >> jeff flake has a new message to his fellow republicans. he says there is still time save your souls. we'll read from his new op said ahead on "morning joe." w op sa ahead on "moinrng joe." i'm bad.

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welcome back. former republican senator jeff flake of arizona is out with a new op-ed entitled fellow republicans, there's still time to save your souls.

and the party writes this. if the house decides against filing articles of impeachment or the senate fails to convict, senate republicans will have to decide whether given what we now know about the president's actions and behavior to support his re-election obviously the answer is no. my fellow republicans, it is time risk your careers in favor of your principles. whether you believe the president deserves impeachment, you know he does not did serve re-election. our country will have more presidents, but principles, well, we just get one crack at those. for those who put america first it is critically important in this moment of our life of our country that we all hear -- >> all right. >> i know, it's hard for me. >> seriously? gene robinson -- >> why didn't he stay in there and fight or maybe fight when he was there? it's so easy to say when you've left. please. >> well, it is easier to say once you're gone.

it would be nice to hear from republicans who -- from whom you hear many of the same sentiments in private if the would be nice hear them in public. it would be nice hear -- you know, that said, it was fascinating, that piece on "the washington post".com website did extremely well yesterday. much better than editors had anticipated. it was the most read piece on the website for most of the day. so it did get read. we can't tell if those ip addresses were from senate offices. i don't -- i don't know if that's true. but i certainly hope some of them were. you know, so, again, jeff flake kind of stating what, you know, if you've been watching this program at any point in the last couple years, what is obvious and what is clear. but it's probably on balance a

good thing he said it and a good thing people read it. >> eddie, we were talking in the commercial break about just choosing the most recent examples. you could watch lindsey graham last night on fox trashing the president's allies. you could watch mccarthy on 60 minutes frantically spinning in sishlgs trying to defend the president on the ukraine call. the twha many republicans not just on this matter but over the course of the years have subjaw gated themselves and bent down at the knee and supported president trump. >> i think it shows a deterioration in the country. folks have self-interest, they're trying to protect themselves and they're fearful of president trump. i thought what was really interesting about jeff flake's op-ed was a moment, i thought, of profound self-reflection. profound might be a bit strong. he says, we have failed as

stewards of our institutions that we were entrusted. we failed as citizens. we failed ourselves. right? i mean, so it is -- it is, in some ways, a kind of confession of what he failed to do as a senator and what republicans are failing to do now. i mean, he might not be the best messenger, but i think that kind of introspection in this moment of crisis is necessary. hopefully folks are listening. >> nice to get some of that inside of congress instead of afterwards. in response to president trump's sunday tweet quoting a lon time evangelical pastor claiming if democrats are successful in removing him from office it would cause a civil war in the united states. eric erickson wrote this if the was stupid, zup pistupid for hi threaten civil war. i would think it this would make it more likely he's impeached. we have would have vice president pence and all of the

trump supporters would are perfectly fine with president pence saying this would lead to civil war about the it's going to encourage a bipartisan coalition to call bs on the president. we heard one member of congress a couple days ago, adam kinzinger, who said this is repug nant to be talking about civil war. but even on that, on floating the idea of a civil war, we haven't seen much republican pushback. >> no, adam said i visited nations ravaged by civil war. donald trump, i have never imagined such a quote to be repeated by a president. and he said this was beyond rep repugment. it is beyond repugnant, not because there is a civil war, but we've seen people that we have seen react to donald trump's hate speech, that react to his bigotry, that react to his calls for violence, and they react by, well, targeting donald

trump's critics in the media and democratic opponents. it is very dangerous. but it also, if you want to just look at that time through a cynical lens of politics, it's really dangerous for donald trump as well. because, donny, you've got republicans right now on the hill going, my god, what -- what's this guy's plan? how is he going to push back on eye crane and the fact that we've actually seen the communications where this guy not only told the president of ukraine that he would, you know, i'll help you but you've got help us first, and then the next day they find out that he told the russians, he wasn't concerned with them interfering in american democracy. despite the fact that all of his intel people say it is the greatest risk facing the united states right now.

so when you have all of this happening, donny, yes, it's dangerous, it's inflammatory rhetoric. it's also harmful to the president's own political standing at some point. republicans say, hey, we've got save ourselves. we're not listening to a jeff flake op-ed. you know what we're doing? we're looking out for our own political backside. and this guy is taking us down. >> i agree with the political inevitability. but i want to go back to the civil war. dictators tell you what they're going to do. if this goes down bad for donald trump, he will tell people to take to the streets. he will do that. >> but they're wrong. >> if -- he will say -- he will literally, in his mind he twoow 25% of this country and he's going to say let's go to war that. was not a side bar. he's telling you what he's going to do. >> coming up, in the wake of the ukraine scandal, president trump's closest allies have risen to the moment with varying

degrees of success. "the washington post's" philip bump joins us way step to step guide to the trump team's defenses on ukraine and impeachment. "morning joe's" back in a moment. impeachment. "morning joe's" back in a moment. performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪ but dad, you've got allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. are you in good hands?

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it's october. >> you know, i can just stop right here because while we have willie here i need -- will little, i need to congratulate you and the mighty new york yankees. we had lemire on yesterday and we were going to talk like good boston fans. we're going to trash everybody involved running the red sox. but we ran out of time. not the players, not the players, but the fact that they -- it's -- you know it's bad when you're in july and they call your 11-year-old to see if he can do middle relief. so i'm not exactly sure what they were planning. but jack is a first baseman for gad sake. he doesn't need midfield relief. >> that's scouting. >> that is scouting. but that time has passed. let's talk about the playoffs. i'm really excited. it's a great yankees team and an exciting young yankees team. astros are unbelievable. my god the with brewers, so hot

they finished the season hot. the as, i don't know how they keep doing it. that's just in the american league. the braves have had a pretty remarkable season. the cardinals back up top. dodgers are on fire. you've got six or seven really great teams with really great comtelli compelling stories. and by the way, i've left tampa out what a turnaround job they've done in tampa. there's insome nighsome nights would pack in 4,000, 5,000 people in the stands. >> there's something wrong with him. >> would you not be pissed off if you were a ray, you played for tampa and you turn that team around and had an incredible season and nobody come out to see you play? >> yeah. and they've done an amazing job with no payroll and no fan base building the team. >> unbelievable. >> the playoffs start tonight. first wildcard game is tonight. as a yankee fan we had a great

season of because of all the injuries when he these young guys came um wp and are going f stars for us. but the astros loom. they're pitching is incredible. i believe, maybe this she psychi is me psych myself up. i think the yooankees are goingo have a stuff go at it against the astros. up come the young guys, a new generation of the yankees and i know america is excited to root for the new york yankees. of? >> of course i think i can, i think i can, i think i can. can you give me $100 million? >> i was going to congratulate willie on christina's books doing so well. >> thanks, mika. >> and far more interesting than all of this. >> she's far more interesting than i i am, that's correct. >> that said, willie think

you're right about the astros. i think they've been the best team in baseball for past three years. >> i agree. >> even after we beat the astros they're like we did what? they're a great team top to bottom. >> all right. still with joe, willie and me were we have branding and marketing expert donny deutsch, professor at princeton university, eddy. and joining the conversation, pulitzer prize winning author doris kerns goodwin is with us. and national security expert is with us, and author of the book political expertise. tom nichols. we're going to start with new polls that show impeachment for president trump growing. 52% now approve of the impeachment inquiry into

president trump when it comes to impeachment and removal from office, the poll found a 10% increase in support. just over the last week, now at 47%. the latest cnn poll found 47% of americans say they backed impeaching and removing trump. 45% said they did not. and the latest reuters poll, 45% said the president should be impeached. that's up eight points from just a week ago. meanwhile, two sources with direct knowledge of the situation told nbc news that president trump told allies days ago that he would start worrying about losing republican support if national polls went above 50% of americans supporting impeachment. >> and -- >> boy, joe, that's -- that's worrisome for the president. >> well, it is worrisome and also, as we've said before in the last hour, you look at what happened yesterday, it's not even the events that took place. it was the president's erratic

responses to those events that took place. the president talking about civil war. the president erratically bumbling his way aupped rround white house looking for the whistleblower if the was just sort of detached from reality. so with donald trump, again, it's not even -- everything that seems to be piling on top of him every day, it's also his very strange reaction to that. doris, you look at the poll numbers and you see how quickly support for impeachment is rising. this is far different than '73 and '74. as i say all the time, my dad was a nixon man and remained a nixon man until the tapes came out and that's when we saw the polls breaking after a year of the watergate hearings and a year of the inquiry. then finally the dam broke and there was a tidal wave of support for impeachment.

that fook took it well over a y this has happened in a week. >> what's interesting it's not as much of the scattered public polls recognizing what somebody's feeling in a moment. what lincoln used to talk about is what you need is public sentiment that develops over time and it becomes a settled feeling in people that something has to be done. i think surely that's what happened with nixon after a period of time. theres with a settled feeling of consensus that republicans as well as democrats saw that he to be impeached and resign in face of imimpeachmepeachment. and the question with clinton, even though people lost their feelings, they didn't feel good about him as a person because of what happened with monthia lieu wince decid monica lewinsky. they were never able to shake the feel that they wanted him as their president considering what he did. and now with the president he's not able to keep with his job

because the obsession with this is going to overwhelm him and that means he doesn't have that cussing of working the economy and saying things are going well and i'm still at my job and this is something off on the side. it's become the center of his life too. >> phil, you're writing this morning, i think strategy is too strong a word, they're making it up as they go. one of the primary defense is to lie about what happened on the call. we learned just last night that secretary of state mike pompeo was on the call. he went on television a couple times in front of the -- at the u.n. and said, no, you're asking about something i know nothing about. he was on the call. what is strategy, again, too strong a word. what is the defense from the white house? how are they approaching this? >> it's a completely scatter shot. it's one of those throw things against the wall and see what sticks. what they're seeing, they invested, for example, over the weekend a lot of time and energy in this idea that there was some sort of change to the whistleblower form. they were allowed to have secondhand sources.

>> not true. >> the inspector general for the intelligence community came out and said that's not true. and not only is it true he didn't rely on secondhand information. so it is the case that as they are evolving their defenses, those defenses quickly eroding under them as well. fundamentally it breaks down to a few things. it breaks down to the primary assertion that donald trump did nothing wrong or he was just need doing what he did. there's subjectivity to that. more broadly there are arguments about, you know, whether the house democrats, for example, took the right steps in moving towards impeachment. there are arguments about whether or not the inclusion of media reports should have been part of the whistleblower plains. there are just these various sort of -- we've seen this for a long time, whatever you do to continue certify some plause ability deniability or doubt into any issue is something

they'll embrace. twhaes they're trying to do. >> willie brought up mike pompeo and a couple times he was asked about the ukraine call where he fained ignorance. let's take a look at those clips. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a white will blower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> are you confident that none of your staff, that you or none of your staff did anything improper in this whole situation? thank you. >> so, matt, i haven't had a chance to actually read the whistleblower complaint yet. i read the first couple of paragraphs and then got busy today. but i'll ultimately get a chance to see it. if i understand it right, it's from someone who had secondhand

knowledge, to the best of my knowledge. and from what i've seen so far, each of the actions that were undertaken by state department officials was entirely appropriate. >> so, tom nichols, an arrogant, both arrogant and shameful performance by the secretary of state. good luck from pompeo ever having any foreign leader ever believing anything he ever says again. but this is a guy that was sitting in on the phone calls and then scoffing and being arrogant and dismissive of these questions. martha raddatz' question was straightforward what do you know who that phone call? he knew a hell of a lot about that phone call because he was on that phone call and, yet, he fained ignorance and mocked her and then said, oh, i haven't had time to read the whistleblower report. in past administrations, wouldn't pompeo be gone? >> in past administrations, all of them would be gone.

it's hard to believe listening to this. you have to remind yourself there are is the secretary of state. this is the face of the united states to the rest of the world. and as you point out, somebody who's word has to be trusted and believed. sitting on the phone and then saying, oh, well i haven't really, you know, seen the complaint. i think one of the things that's really interesting about this is, once again, conservatives, republicans, the double standard they're deploying, these are the same people who would never as a principle accept that some process error or some technicality about i haven't really seen the report and i'm not sure what day it was issued, they would focus right in on -- they would argue for focusing right in on what's important. which is the president's impeachable behavior. and instead we got what day was

the form issued? and i got busy and i haven't read nine pages because nine pages is exhausting to make your way through in a busy day in washington. >> republican senators were saying the same thing. i haven't had a chance to read it yet. some have said they didn't have a chance to read the transcript. they are, of course, lying. the lying continues. pompeo's lying. he and his lawyers were around the table reading it the second it came out. but, again, pompeo flufd both of tho proved in both of those instances he has no problem lying. it's like cory lieu wince douse s lewandowski, they have no trouble with this. here we have a guy running the justice department return said it of focusing on terrorism, we've heard the pentagon's told us isis is researchiurging and d about the attacks. instead he's flying to italy for

donald trump. donald trump brings him up to investigate conspiracy they'rely in ukraine. he's looking to hillary clinton's server. instead of him worrying about gang violence and just running rampant across chicago and america, donald trump seems to talk about gangs, and here we have the justice department, the attorney general running around talking to australia. he's doing everything but protecting the united states of america. and what is he doing? he's chasing down conspiracy theories, tom, that are -- that have their focus attacking the men and women of our intel communities that actually are working every day to keep us safe. >> but what's the penalty? you know, they're lying. they're ignoring their other constitutional duties to chase down these conspiracy theories. and they're paying no price for it. they're getting applauded from their usual amen corners. they're getting people nodding

gravely on, you know, the usual outlets, talking about -- amplifying these crazy conspiracy theories. why wouldn't they lie? cory lewandowski goes and creates a spectacle and makes a fool infroin front of congress the attorney general is out running down conspiracy theories. and the great beards of the senate and elders of the republican party are nodding as though this is really important work instead of actually, you know, running the justice department. >> and actually mika, while this is happening, of course donald trump's not getting away with it. >> no. >> you are seeing approval for impeachment. the inquiry and impeaching and removing donald trump from office skyrocketing. so all of these things that the republicans think are helping them, sending barr out. >> look at those numbers.

>>tor chase conspiracy theories instead of protecting us from drugs on our streets, opioid epidemic spreading, you know, gang violence, terrorist attacks. he's chasing conspiracy theories. and guess what, mika, the american permanent noticing. doris was right. bill clinton was always able to say i'm doing my job, i'm keeping the economy strong. let republicans worry about impeachment, i'm doing my job. it is just the opposite with donald trump. he's obsessed not only with this impeachment, he's also obsessed still with the 2016 election. >> yes. and, again, what you see, and it's important to sort of reframe it again and again, as you see those poll numbers showing that people are tuned in. and this is basic. you may have the president's stooges and his pundits on tv saying this is too in the weeds,

this is complicated or trying to complicate it. but what you see in this poll numbers is you can't complicate something that is very, very simple. >> too simple. >> and people don't like what the president did. you don't shakedown the leader of another country for dirt on a political opponent. >> and, mika -- >> you just don't. >> -- not only is the storyline straightforward, the president of the united states used the office of the presidency to extort a foreign leader to help dig up dirt on an american domestic opponent. not only is that straightforward and every american can understand it, the lies, the conspiracy theories that are tumbling out, they get disproven same day as they come out. because the lies, i mean, the lies are so obvious -- >> yeah. >> -- that the "wall street journal," the "new york times" and others, "washington post" -- >> these poor folks -- >> -- take care of them like

that. >> these poor folks who are trying shell for the president or pundits on tv, this has got to be hard to watch. here's a look at the president talking to reporters yesterday and you can see something changing here. trying to to find out the identity of the whistleblower. he also renewed his attacks on house intelligence committee chairman adam schiff. take a look. >> mr. president, do you now know who the whistleblower is, sir? >> well, we're trying to find out about a whistleblower. when you have a whistleblower that reports things that were incorrect, as you know, and you probably now have figured it out, the statement i made to the president of ukraine, a good man, a nice man, knew was perfect. it was perfect. but the whistleblower reported a totally different statement. the call was perfect. when the whistleblower reported it, he made it sound terrible. and then you had adam schiff who, even worse, made up my words.

which i think is just a horrible -- i've never even seen a thing like that. adam schiff, representative, congressman, made up what i said. >> well, you know, doris, the president not in a good state of mind there. and obviously misrepresenting so many things about the whistleblower complaint that actually echoed the communication that was released by the white house which is actually just the white house's telling. they are still covering up the actual contents of that phone call. >> yeah, you know what's different about this story and the russian story is that it is simpler. people can tell a story and they learn the story and then they can tell it to the person next door. they can go to a bar and describe this is what i know the president has done or what i think he's done. and they're beginning, i think, the public to even understand what abuse of power means. what does violation of the oath seen some? i think we still have to in this country if you're going to impeach a president, it's

important to explain why these ideals are being done. to the extent that's happening, public sentiment changing. there's still a long way to go. tms it's sti it's still an inquiry. if the country's going to be heeled, t healed, they're going to see this as the right thing to do. if they see this as something to get back with president trump, we're going to be in deeper divisions than before we began. the goal is so more than just impeach him, it's to create public consensus so the majority of the public say this had to be done and had to be done now instead of waiting for the election. and that has to do with deterrence because he didn't learn from that first experience with the russia investigation.

the day after the mueller report he goes right after foreign interference again. but it's a sober time. i agree with nancy pelosi when she says this is not a time of joy. you know there's people all over the country saying hooray, this is our team doing something. but the team is the country. and that team has to come to some understandable solution. this is say big, big thing to do. >> it is. just to follow up on what doris said about this is a story that's a bit easiert story to understand. i remember during the clinton era there was one investigation after another. americans could focus on monica lewinsky and they could focus on the fact that the president committed perjury in a sexual harassment lawsuit and committed perjury about sexual harassment and the supreme court disbarred him, arkansas supreme court disbarred him.

they could understand that. but there were other things like the president allowing missile technology to go to china, to be sold to china when the defense department said, no, the say the department said, no. the national security agencies all said no, but bill clinton pushed it through because one of the top donors to the democratic party wanted that missile technology transferred to china. but americans didn't care. i talked about that in town hall meetings and they would yawn. but then, it was about perjury and sexual harassment lawsuit, then they narrowly focused on that. it's not always -- it's not always what's most damning, it's what people can get and focus on. and this ukraine story seems pretty simple and straightforward. >> and speaker pelosi boiled it down to one sentence. she did it talking to you guys on friday outside the capital where she said this is the president of the united states using taxpayer non shakedown a foreign leader for his own political gain. that's one sentence, that's what

she's present together country. it's very telling, phil, as you talk about the defense the white house has. they don't want to talk about the substance of that summary of the phone call except to say it was a perfect phone call. they want to jump to impugn the credibility of the whistleblower using bad information. they want to jump to what the bidens were doing in ukraine. and now they have attorney general barr fleig rouying arou world trying to dig up information. none of that compares to what nancy pelosi's put out there. >> trump supporters went on tv and redirect for joe biden. we heard the president commenting on the whistleblower complaint it which was bolsered by the white house and later white house admissions. but there's a quote that came out in the poll that's highlighted. 17% told quinnipiac that they think if the president forces a

foreign leader he should be impeached from office. 14% of republicans said they thought trump currently should be impeached and removed from office. those are going to be extremely problematic for donald trump moving forward as some republicans in the house and senate tlook re-election, they're not going to do see one eighth of this base saying get this guy out of the white house. >> professor, i want to ask a question -- >> i haven't been called professor in a long time. >> the straightforward narrative, when we write books, when you write your wonderful books, they're complex but they might have a central met for th metaphor that are everything han hangs on. is there the way that they can use whapgs what's happening in uexplain it ord order to explain a complex story

in can ukraine actually be representative of something much more systemic? >> think that's a great question. think it's representative of the leadership style of this president in a certain sense he has not surrounded himself with a team who can speak truth to power. that's what you need in somebody, fdr had harry hopkins, he had eleanor who are was a welcome thorn in the side. he who does he have now that's protecting him from make a statement like that from going on that phone? where is the acknowledgement that he there was some errors made in the russia investigation so that he's learned from that? have we seen an ability to grow? i don't think so. is there a sense in which he's got a sense of understanding of where he is now and how serious it is and instead of yelling at other people, goes into reflect self-reflection now. all of the qualities of a leader are shown in this. that's what you do when you write a book, take an incident and figure out what kind of

leader -- sort of like a leadership index. do they have empathy, resilience, are we seeing those qualities in president trump? do they have ambition for self or for the greater good? those qualities show in this and to the extent people can make it about his leadership and about himself as a president and his relationship to the country and the people, then i think it's more than just a substance in ukraine. but a little story can produce a big story. and i think that's what's happening right now. >> so, tom nichols, while we're talking about leadership and people stepping up, let's go back and recount what happened back in 2017. we found out from "the washington post" this week that donald trump told the russians that he didn't care that they were interfering with our elections. donald trump told their foreign minister and told their ambassador that was perfectly fine, don't worry about it, we

do it too. talking about people that didn't stand guard for america, i'm sorry, we have to point at general mcmaster who was in there who knew the contents of that conversation and never -- never told us. and how many other people knew and never told us? >> yeah, it's not just general mcmaster. i think a lot of people left the administration thinking they'd gotten away clean and that they'd gotten out in time and bailed out and gotten off the titanic in time. but the question now is going to remain, because this happened in 2017, not just for mcmaster, but for a lot of other people. what did you know and when did you know it? and that's going to be an important question for everybody who worked in this administration for a long time to come. >> all right. our thanks to philip bump for being on the snow morning. good to see you. and still ahead on "morning

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and people inside from accidentally visiting sites that aren't secure. and if someone trys we'll let you know. xfi advanced security. if it's connected, it's protected. call, click, or visit a store today. joining us now, "new york times" contributing opinion writer pete wehner and columnist for the "washington post," carol. pete, you're op-ed "the new york times" is entitled what's the matter with republicans? in it you wrietd thwrite this i the a sane world the reaction of republicans to the memorandum of telephone conversation between president trump and the president of ukraine combined with the whistleblower complaint filed by an intelligence officer describing a white house cover-up would be similar to the response of republicans after the release on august 5th, 1974,

of the smoking gun tape that finally broke the nixon presidency. republicans would begin to abandon mr. trump with senior figures urging him in private and in public to resign. this may be asking too much of republicans who have lost their way in the trump era. the republican party is the party of donald trump through and through. as such, it has become morally disfigured. the party finds itself in a deep -- in a dark alleyway. if republicans don't break with the president right now after all he has done and all he is likely to do, they will pay a fiercesome price generationally, demographically, and above all morally. are you looking at certain republicans who you are most surprised by at that point in

time? >> at this point now, because this deal with donald trump happened early and the lack of courage, the cowardice, one expects the republican partitor say in lockstep with him. it's been a discouraging thing to see. i do think it will come at a tremendous cost to the party. i think donald trump is going to go down and i think he will take down those people who have stayed with him. i think one of the mistakes that the republican party made early on is they bought into wishful thinking. they thought they could contain him and control him, they'd be the adults in the room and they could manage him. i never now the that was possible because you're dealing with a man who is so emotionally and psychologically unwell. when you take that personality profile, that psychological profile and combine it with the powers of the presidency, i never believed there was a chance that was going to happen.

it hasn't happened and his pathologies are getting worse, not better. and so the damage to the party is betting worse, not better. >> donny. >> you write about james madison and twharnd truwarned that trum dangerous to america. and our founders set up our system for a guy just like that. i spoke in the earlier hour that is he beyond, there's nothing he will not do to protect himself. he will start a war. he will tell people to take to the streets. your writing suggests that my predictions are right on target. >> well, you know, he throws around language to cavalier that i people tend to have gotten to the broint they spoint where th trump being trump. but when he accuse the chairman of the house committee of being treason, he is speaking of the one crime that's actually carefully defined in the constitution. so i decided to, you know, look

into why it was that the framers were so careful about that particular word, treason. and it turned out that their own recent history had seen, you know, colonial governors who had executed dissenters by accusing them of treason. so as madison explains in the federalist paper, we want to be very careful on what that word means so that future des pits can't throw it around to punish people. it's extraordinary because you see this madison's word a clear warning that somebody like trump would come along. >> reports to ask donald trump, do you think adam schiff should be executed? i mean, to your point, he throws it around. i would ask one reporter in the white house say you accused adam schiff treason. do you believe adam schiff at that point should be executed?

as i said, authoritarians will tell you what they believe. ask him that question. >> well, it's interesting because he has already sort of played around with the idea that the whistleblower and the people who spoke to the whistleblower should pay the price that we used to, you know, charge for this offense. i mean, he is already flirting with them. and the fact that a party that claims frailty to constitutional principles that a president who has sworn to protect, preserve and defend the constitution, doesn't seem to know what's actually in it. >> pete -- >> tom nichols. >> tom nichols here, pete. you've been one of the people that's been courageous about drawing a connection between trump's disordered emotional state and his political behavior in a way that republicans have not been. and i guess one question i have is when does this transcend

politics? it's easy for republicans to say don't agree with him about hae did in ukraine or i don't like what he said about adam schiff. but what it will take for republicans finally to say, as you and i and many others have said ro said, that there's something beyond politics here? this is a deeply disordered person and that's what's driving a lot of our politics. is there some red line that can finally be crossed where the republicans are going to get, where you and many of the other critics of the president are? >> i don't know, tom. it's a good question. i'm not sure that there is. there's been so many red lines that have been crossed. you know, in the piece i talk about the psychology of accommodation. that's that people 2 1/2 years ago could never have envisioned themselves to be accolades of donald trump. that's how psychology works. my suspicion is that some line will be crossed, but it will cause the country to rise up. and even perhaps part of the base.

it's really only when there is an identifiable and tangible cost to republicans in congress that they'll flip. i do want to say one thing, i tlout thought at t thought at the beginning and there's a central thing to think about the trump administration, is that he's psychologically and emotionally unwell. all that's unfold during the course of his presidency doesn't make sense. but if you understand that, it does begin to make sense. it's not only the psychology of donald trump, it's the psychology of his supporters too of how they have invested in him early on. once they've done that, they got to the point where condemning him would become a condemnation of them. and they kreenltcouldn't really that. i think for all of us who have spent our life in politics, maybe the thing that's most important now is less politics than psychology. >> you know, pete, you and i have spent an awful lot of time,

especially going to the bush years and after talking about conservatism and the future of conservatism. did some writing together. i just -- what i didn't understand, and i throw this to you and tom, all of us former republicans. and i know at least you and i, pete, very concerned about the future of the conservative movement, if not of re-republicanism. how could it be that so-called conservatives that republicans could stand by while they're obviously moving towards a disaster, a demographic disaster, a political disaster, a disaster that will wipe the party out for years to come? they have to know this. and they have to know that separating themselves from this malignancy not only on the presidency, but on the republican party would help the

party. but they're doing nothing. >> yeah. i'll go first. you know, it's a great question and i'm pondered it a lot of times. i guess that they never felt that they could take the exit ramp. i do believe that the problem? in some respects, seasonality simply donald trump. it's the base of the party. he has a hold on the party which is almost unlike anything i've ever seen. and the republican members of congress aren't fools in the sense that they know that if they speak up against him they will be the target of a vicious campaign. it was true of mark sanford, it was true of jeff flake, and it was true of bob corker. so for them to get off the train -- because you and i know, we've talked to these people privately, they know what's unfolding. but they feel like that the base of their party is against them. that said, you know, at some point you see this catastrophe that is unfolding and is now at this point almost inevitable.

it's not even conservatism anymore. it's some weird brand of the kind of ethic nationalism. but any person of conservative philosophy, to see what donald trump embodies, not just in policy but in disposition and temperament, just couldn't stand with him. as i said, i think political tribalism explains a lot of this. >> i think -- i think a lot of the people who identified as conservatives came to realize there's a lot of power in just mobilizing resentment and negative ends. that the optimism, the dynoism, and the can do approach of the republicans in the 1980s was replaced by harvesting votes from people who merely from negative aims to make other people angry, to stop other things from happening, to basically just freeze the country for the sake of feeling like their misery will be shared with others. and when you have a party based

on resentment, you start casting around for things like cheap nationalism, conspiracy theories, deep state weirdness and all the other things that zruf donald trump is cycling through. none of this is about policy, which means none of it's an argument between conservatives or liberals anymore. and i think that's what has so many of us that used to be republicans and is flum muexed y all of this. we're just mobilizing angry people who just want to hurt other people. >> all right. our thanks to pete wehner. and karen, thank you as approximately for being on this morning. and still ahead, upholding federal protections for a whistle snowblower part whistleblower is part of a president's duties. what happens when a whistleblower sounds the alarm against a sitting president?

we'll discuss what it means and what it means for the identity of the whistleblower. "morning joe" will be right back. whistleblower. "morning joe" will be right back. 300 miles an hour, that's where i feel normal. having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected. learn more at retire your risk dot org. it's rukmini here from the new york times . hey, you see this?

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all right. 46 past the hour. in an attempt to discredit the ukraine whistleblower, president trump and his allies in recent days have alleged the intelligence community recently changed the rules requiring whistleblowers to base their claims on first-hand information. a trio of top house republicans, minority leader kevin mccarthy, oversight committee ranking member jim jordan and intel committee ranking member devin nunez yesterday sent a letter to intelligence committee inspector general michael atkinson inquiring about whether whistleblower requirements were altered in light of accusations against the president. but according to three attorneys who represent whistleblowers, the law has not changed and there is no requirement that whistleblowers stick to first-hand information in their complaints. precisely because those filings are designed to trigger official investigations that would

uncover such first-hand information. the theory stems from reporting in the conservative outlet. the federalist, which said that a previous version of an intelligence community whistleblower dporms tru whistleblower forms trust the importance of first-hand information in complaints sent to congress. a new form which asks respond tonts check a box if they're reporting first or secondhand information was posted days before the ukraine whistleblower's complaint. in a clarifying statement yesterday, the office of the inspector general of the intelligence community said, quote, by law the complainant need not possess first-hand information in order to file a complaint. in the process of reviewing and clarifying those forms and in response to recent press inquiry regarding the instant whistleblower complaint, the icig understood that certain language in those forms could be read incorrectly as suggesting that whistleblowers must possess

first-hand information in order to file a complaint with the congressional against committees. so the good news here is that the white house actually put out a memo admitting to everything. joining us now, national security correspondent for "politico" and an msnbc contributor, natasha bertrand. and national security reporter for "the washington post," matt. he has posted a new piece outlining the whistleblower's federal protections as president trump scrambles to out his or her identity. matt, we'll start with you. the president seems to be confused about the concept of a whistleblower and he was milling around the oval office yesterday talking about finding this person. what's the possibility that that happens? and if it does, how dangioerous could it be? >> i was talking about

whistleblowers yesterday for that story and they painted a grim picture of president trump wanting to out this guy and potentially try to force his firing. he could do that. the whistleblower slaw supposed to protect people from retaliation like that. but the person in charge of but person in charge of implementing that law and enforcing it, in the law it says the president is in charge of that. so this is just a situation i don't think anyone contemplated, these laws designed for lower level officials, somebody's boss retaliating against them and then there would be a review by inspectors general. no one ever contemplated the head of the executive branch who has constitutional authority to command the executive branch would be at the center of a complaint and further would be so aggressively coming after a whistle-blower when he's charged with protecting whistle-blowers. the law says he's supposed to manage this law about protecting whistle blowers, so it's just an unprecedented situation where even whistle-blower teerns say it might end badly for this

whistle-blower. >> natasha, what are you looking at and is the president's obsession with the whistle-blower looking potentially problematic? >> so my sense is this is a lot of bluster as usual coming from the president. because according to "the new york times" anyway, the white house seems to already know who the whistle-blower is, and that is why the "the new york times" felt they were justified in releasing the fact that this person works for the cia. so my question is if the white house does know the identity of this person which it wouldn't be difficult to narrow down because there were so many people detailed from the cia to the security council and have any particular time, then it's surprising to me the individual hasn't leaked. and that suggests to me is that the leak of that name would not necessarily further the white house's interest here. because we know that the cia general council effectively took

this complaint to the white house and then lawyers at the white house took it to the justice department well before the icig took it to the inspector general or took it to the dni who then took it to the justice department and the white house. so the white house had previous information about that whistle-blower complaint. it's curious to me why we haven't seen this flashed across the front pages of brightbart or fox news. >> so matt, one of the many smoke screens the president has thrown up and his defenders throw up is they go right to this whistle-blower is counting on hearsay, secondhand information. but the inspector general when he undercut the president's first impression, the second argument he makes about the hearsay is undercut as well by the inspector general. >> set aside this dispute about

the forms change and the law never required, but the inspector general said the guy had direct knowledge. the inspector general said the guy was credible, he actually had access to these subsources, that he quotes, he actually had authorization to this information. and then we don't know had some kind of direct knowledge, so that undercuts the president's assertion this is secondhand hearsay. he talks about a call he wasn't on but gave a remarkably accurate d accurate description. so even where he or she had secondhand information it was remarkably accurate. >> doris, i want to talk to you a little bit big picture here about the founders in your wheel house because we are hearings things about the federalist

papers and hamilton and everything put in place so long ago for just this moment. >> i think it's the most encouraging thing we talked about today when suddenly -- it's the time when law was being violated and he was very worried about it, and worried that a dictator might arise, and he said the best protection we have against that is that every mother should be reading in their books about the revolution because the scenes of it are fading and we've got to remember it that every spelling book should have in it the ideals of the resolution. it's not something in the past we've got the bring them to life again. and to the extent they come to define for us what is treason, what is abuse of power, what is a violation of oath of office, so we know this is our heritage, the more likely we're able to deal with this in a bright way. i was on a plane the other day and they said what are you doing

still reading the newspaper, and we're still reading the constitution and they're coming to protect us in this situation. >> the only challenge is we have a bad actor in the white house. what does it mean we have in the executive office a person who simply flouts the norms and standards -- >> it means citizens have to get active to understand that is a flouting and not acceptable. when the citizens get active as they did the anti-slavery movement, the womens right movements, it's important. >> and democrats not to get bogged down on form this, form this. if you can't sell the idea in one wen sns, they can't go home and tell their wife or husband about it, it's not a good idea. don't get caught up in this process stuff. >> all right, thank you both very much for being on this morning. and doris and tom nichols thank you both as well. and secretary of state mike pompeo sounded like he was

totally in the dark when it came to the phone call where president trump asked ukraine's leader to investigate the bidens. it it turns out he knew exactly what was said on that call because he was listening in. plus house democrats are ramping up their impeachment probe into the president with a slew of new subpoenas. we'll talk to a member of the house oversight committee, congress ro khanna. morning joe will be right back. a morning joe will be right back ♪ you name it. the ford f-150 will tow up to 13,200 pounds of it. ♪ plants capture co2. what if other kinds of plants captured it too?

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in what felt like a very desperate move, posted a video to twitter as if he can't get on the news to tell his supporters that he has no intention of going anywhere anytime soon. >> what's going on now is the single greatest scam in the history of american politics, the democrats want to take away your guns, they want to take away your health care, they want to take away your vote, your freedom, they want to take away your judges. they want to take away everything. >> and back to mar-a-lago you go. >> a little late night from jimmy kimmel live. >> never saw that coming. that was fast. >> never saw a lot of this coming. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, october 1st. we have danny deutsch, pulitzer prizewinning columnist and aassociate editor of "the

washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson and nbc news correspondent covering national security and intelligence ken dilanian. there is so much happening this morning so let's frame where things stand right now in the impeachment inquiry into president trump. we know that secretary of state mike pompeo was listening in on that july phone call between president trump and ukraine's leader. i thought he didn't know about that. >> so he said. >> we know attorney general william barr has been asking foreign intel officials to help discredit the mueller probe. we know rudy giuliani has been subpoenaed by the house to turn over documents related to his communications with the trump administration officials about ukraine, and we know president trump is trying to find out the identity of the whistle-blower who made the ukraine complaint. somebody, joe, might want to explain to the president what the concept of the whistle-blower is.

you don't do that, but there's so many things you don't do, and polls are showing that people, joe, maybe aren't feeling so comfortable with these latest revelations. >> you know, they're really not. unfortunately, they're not because the president yesterday showed again just how unmoored he is not only emotionally but also from the truth. you're right about the whistle-blower complaint. you're also right we're seeing it in trump media where they're just making things up whole cloth. you could look at a website which is just made up a new requirement on a whistle-blower complaint. and of course the trump media spun that up until it was proven it was like four pinocchios and a fact check. i saw a show last night where the poor host who's been a trumpest from the very start was throwing all the mud he could up

against the wall. not all of it of course is going to stick because donald trump and his administration, out of control, wildly out of control. on this show i was watching last night this host, he even talked about joe biden firing an investigator to cover-up for hunter biden. now, here's what's so interesting is that this was a news court show, this was a fox news show. if they just read what "the wall street journal" has been saying for a very long time they would have understood that "the wall street journal," then their own company was calling that a discredited story a week ago. they know that, though, but like donald trump they're just left with lies. and you know, willy, i've got to say bill clinton was masterful in saying i'm going to continue to do my work though i'm going

to be impeached. we woke up yesterday and read news of a secretary of state who's been lying, shamefully lying to martha raddox claiming he didn't know anything about this call when he was on it. i think even more disturbingly we have an fbi director who instead of trying to keep drugs off the street, drugs out of our children's schools, trying to break up drug rings with the opioid crisis, he's off trying to dig up conspiracy theories in italy. >> the attorney general, yeah. >> the attorney general. instead of trying to break up gang land violence in chicago, trying to stop gangs from causing the sort of rampant violence that they've been causing, what's he doing? he's going down under. he's talking to australia. again, he's trying to do everything he can to follow

donald trump's dumb conspiracy theories. you could say the same thing about radical islamic terrorism. that's what fbi directors usually do, not this guy. he's not protecting us from the next attack. he's doing donald trump's bidding -- >> the attorney general. >> the attorney general has turned into nothing more than an errand boy to chase down every one of donald trump's stupid conspiracy theories, and that is making america less safe. that is making us more susceptible to terrorist attacks. that is meaning that domestically we're more susceptible to gang land style attacks. that means our children are more susceptible to drugs in their school, in our neighborhoods. because the attorney general, the chief law enforcement

officer of the united states of america is not focused on keeping america safe. he's only focused on being donald trump's errand boy and chasing down conspiracy theories. i say all this just to say this is not what you do when impeachment numbers skyrocket against you, but that's what donald trump's doing. it's bad news for him politically. it's bad news for republicans. but more importantly, it's really bad news for america. >> well, he's totally consumed by it. just check twitter, and he's enlisted his government. the walls are now down between the justice department and the state department. i said his government. it's not his government, it's our government. those walls are down. you have mike pompeo on the phone collin july with zelensky saying again and again to martha as you pointed out and also saying you're asking me something i don't know about.

that was a lie. the attorney general is flying around the world making trips to places like italy to make investigations into american intelligence agencies to help president trump, chasing conspiracy theories. this is all while the president is back home tweeting about a civil war, about arresting a member of congress for treason and also trying to find out who the whistle-blower is. maybe it's because these new polls show president trump's impeachment support steadily growing among americans. quinnipiac, 52% now approve. when it comes to impeachment and removal from office, a 10% increase in support over just the last week, up to 47%. meanwhile the latest cnn poll found 47% of americans say they back impeaching and removing president trump, 45% say they do not. in the latest reuters poll, 45% said the president should be impeached. that is up 8 points from a week

ago. meanwhile two sources with direct knowledge of the situation told nbc news that president trump is telling allies and did days ago that he would start worrying about losing republican support if national polls went above 50% of americans supporting impeachment as we just reported in that "q" poll, we're at 52% supporting the inquiry, joe. >> 52%, and really what's equally surprising and jarring is that i mean some of these polls involve the impeachment inquiry. others involve removing him from office, and we're at about a 50-50 proposition on most of those polls. the "q" poll, 47% want donald trump impeached and removed from office. he's got to be worried. but, again, the move is not to chase conspiracy theories when you're worried, and don't you think, willy, that's one of the problems that republicans and

this was reported today, that the republicans are getting tired of donald trump's ad hoc attacks, getting tired of the calls for civil war, getting tired of the calls for trizzen. you know, eric erikson, pretty conservative guy who supports donald trump, says the calls for civil war are only going to turn the republicans more against him. >> and in this case there's not some opaque mueller report. we saw last week a summary of the phone call where americans including republicans could see for themselves what the president asked of president zelensky. then we saw out in public view the whistle-blower report which went into greater detail. this one you can get your arms around quickly, and if you look at that polling, americans don't like what they see. this is what we've been saying now for days, you can't complicate something that is pretty basic.

now to the new reporting concerning secretary of state mike pompeo's role in that july 25th phone call between president trump and the president of ukraine. that is now at the center of an impeachment inquiry. a senior state department official tells "the wall street journal" and nbc news, has confirmed the reporting that pompeo was among the administration officials who listened in on the phone call. pompeo's participation on the call hasn't been previously reported. in interviews last week pompeo said they haven't read the whistle-blower's complaint in its entirety but maintained that actions by the state department had been entirely appropriate. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report

about i think whistle-blower complaint none of which i've seen. >> are you confident that none of your staff did nothing improper in this whole situation? thank you. >> so i haven't had a chance to actually read the whistle-blower complaint yet. i read the first couple of paragraphs and then got busy today, but i'll ultimately get a chance to see it. if i understand it right, it's from someone who had secondhand knowledge. to the best of my knowledge and what i've seen so far each of the actions undertaken by state department officials was entirely appropriate. >> come on. >> i don't know which one of those clips is more insulting. he lies in both. in the second he was talking about from what he understood the whistle-blower had secondhand knowledge, and yet there he was -- >> he was in the room. >> -- on the phone listening to

the conversation. he knows more than all of us know right now, and yet he lied to those reporters. and let's just play the first clip again -- >> you can see him struggling. >> it's not just the lying, it's the arrogance. in both questions he laughs off the question. he's so arrogant and so snide, you're asking me a question that he knows nothing about. i'm sorry, play the clip again. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a i think whistle-blower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> willy, i don't know where to start there. again, she asked him a specific question of what do you know about -- >> he was there.

>> -- the conversation. he was listening in to the conversation and yet lied two times there. once at the u.n. saying, oh, i have work to do, i was busy and this was just secondhand knowledge. again, just shows the extraordinary bad faith that the president and all the president's men are engaged in right now. in any past administration -- >> and this is what the media is up against, what democrats are up against. they're not going to tell you the truth, and you have to assume that. >> yeah. in any past administration the secretary of state lying like that would be fired. in any past administration except maybe the nixon administration, an attorney general that has lied as much and committed perjury in front of the united states congress would be fired. you were exactly right. we are now at a point where we have to assume the secretary of state, the attorney general, the president of the united states, the vice president, their all in on this, and they're all lying.

why? because they've already proven it to us. still ahead, this pompeo story is just one of the major headlines this morning. we haven't even gotten to the attorney general's globetrotting aimed at helping the president discredit u.s. intelligence on the russian investigation. and then there's rudy. >> poor rudy. >> you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. e watching joe. we'll be right back. >> vo: my car is my after-work decompression zone. ♪ music >> vo: so when my windshield broke... i found the experts at safelite autoglass. they have exclusive technology and service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost.

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like make a big sale. surprise and delight a customer. or come up with the winning idea. and 10 minutes is all you need to finally give your business the internet technology it really needs. we'll prove it. give us 10 minutes. if we can't offer you faster speed or better savings than your current internet service, we'll give you 300 dollars for your time. call now to get your comcast business 10 minute advantage and take your business beyond. comcast business. beyond fast. i want to get ken dilanian in here to the president's extensive efforts to discredit the russia investigation. sources tell "the washington post" that attorney general william barr has been traveling the globe urging foreign intelligence officials to investigate the origins of the russia investigation. "the post" reports that barr

traveled to italy last week with u.s. attorney jim dure durham when barr tapped earlier this year to investigate the investigators of the russia probe. this is what we're talking about, blorpt. a justice department spokeswoman would not say whether barr discussed the impeachment inquiry. nbc news confirms a report from "the new york times" that president trump asked the president of australia with efforts to help discredit the mueller probe. ken dilanian, i'm going to hand this to you an a tray and tell me which stands out to you as the most concerning for our republic? >> i think it's remarkable with all that's on his plate the attorney general of the united states is finding time to travel the world to promote this inquiry into the origins of the mueller investigation and we really don't know what the predicate to this is.

there hasn't been a credible allegation of wrongdoing surrounding how that investigation was opened, number one. and number two, there's already an inspector general veview at least of some of the ways that the fbi national security warrants against particular people. we don't even know if this durham thing is a criminal investigation or in fact what is it? it's gone to the extraordinary lengths of having doj people question cia officers about their intelligence efforts. and my sources are stay saying to me what expertise do department of justice investigators have in how we assess whether vladimir putin ordered an operation or not. it's extraordinary and it sends a message to our allies is another thing my sources are telling me that it's deeply concerning. these senior officials in the u.s. government, whose bidding are they doing? are they doing donald trump's personal political bidding or are they doing the business of

the united states? there's the other thing i wanted to get to on the issue of secondhand information and the inspector general of the intelligence community michael atkinson, put out a rather extraordinary and detailed news release and statement about this yesterday where he said there was an issue with a form that suggested that a whistle-blower shouldn't have only secondhand information. so he laid all this out and explained that this whistle-blower actually had official and authorized access to the information and sources referenced in his letter. and the whistle-blower checked the box that says i have personal and/or direct knowledge of events or records involved. and also a second box and said other employees have told me about events or records involved. so the notion that this whistle-blower was simply reporting some water cooler rumor is totally false, and the icig would not have put his credibility behind this and called it an urgent concern. by the way, this is the only

urgent concern complaint in the last year. >> ken, can we just underline right now that that inspector general was appointed by donald trump and the acting dni who said that the whistle-blower acted in accordance with the law was appointed by donald trump. this is not a deep state conspiracy. these are all trump appointees, some appointed in the last month or two or three or four months, trump appointees all saying this wept by the book. >> that's exactly right. and joe maguire, the acting dni who was subject to some criticism from congress now seems to be in good standing because the folks i talked to felt he handled himself well in a difficult position in that hearing. he doesn't want to completely trash his because, the president of the united states, but he's following the law, supporting the rights of this

whistle-blower to remain anonymous. >> ken dilanian, thank you very much. up next we'll get to rudy giuliani who was hit with subpoenas for documents from three of the committees investigating trump's impeachment. will he be able to argue attorney-client privilege if he's called to testify or maybe something else? we'll discuss that ahead on "morning joe." "morning joe." ♪ (dramatic orchestra) performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result.

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joe." the democrats of course are pushing forward on their impeachment inquiry into president trump, now subpoenaing trump's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani. in a joint letter from house intel chairman adam schiff, elijah cummings and foreign affairs chairman elliott engel, the lawmakers are seeking documents related to giuliani and efforts to get ukraine's government to investigate the biden family. in the letter chair demanding the former mayor produce all text messages, phone records and other communications related to the matter by october 15th, two weeks. the document does not ask giuliani to testify, something he previously said he would consider doing. the president's personal

attorney acknowledged the subpoena on twitter acknowledging in part it had been been signed only by democratic chairs who had prevujed this case. giuliani adding it raised constitutional legal issues including attorney-client and other privileges. in a statement to nbc news he expanded on his tweet saying in part i think it's extraordinary no one asked me to comply and giuliani says he's not made a decision whether he'll cooperate. appearing on fox news last night the former new york city mayor was pressed whether he would testify to congress. >> would he testify because i think jay sekulow is absolutely right, you don't have to do anything. >> oh, i don't know, i'm weighing the alternatives on -- i'll kind of like go through it. i'll get all my evidence together. i don't know if they let me use

videotapes and tape recordings, if they let me get some of the evidence, and i have to tell you all this nonsense about interfering in the election, i gathered all this evidence before the mueller probe ended, so it was clearly under my responsibility as the lawyer for the president of the united states. >> joining us now, state attorney for palm beach dave erinberg. good luck with that. but let's start with the subpoena. do you see a panel where rudy giuliani has to testify beyond just producing these documents, and text messages showing the state department directed him to act on ukraine. >> he may have to. he doesn't have a legitimate privilege that would prevent it. he has said repeatedly he was not working on behalf of a client, he was going solo so the

privilege wouldn't apply. plus the attorney general client privilege doesn't apply such as ukrainians and even if he did apply he problem waived it by giving away his text messages on fox news. besides that, it's a really bad look for giuliani to hold these secrets instead of disposing it to the world because he's been out there blasting the whistle-blower for allegedly having secondhand information and information that isn't accurate. well, giuliani clearly has first-hand information. let's get it out there. if he doesn't, there's a bit of hypocrisy there. it's a bad look. >> so, dave, how would a judge sort through rudy giuliani's multiple stands that he's taken? of course it's like donald trump about the iraq war. if donald trump can find a quote that he wants and says he supported the iraq war or he opposed the iraq war, and rudy giuliani has been acting the same way about what capacity he was going to ukraine and these

other countries. and sometimes he says i'm just a president's attorney, sometimes he says i wasn't the president's attorney. sometimes he says i was working for the state department. so there you are, you're a judge. and every judge you've ever dealt with if he claims attorney-client privilege but he's already said publicly i wasn't there for the president, i was there for the state department, or i wasn't there for the president, i was there by myself, and then of course carol meryl says if you look behind the third door it's rudy giuliani saying i was there as the president's lawyer. how does a judge sort through that, and does a judge wipe all that to the side saying, listen, no attorney-client here. you said yourself publicly you were there two times not acting as an attorney. >> and you're right, you're accurate. an attorney client privilege only applies to communications

with his client. and he has said he has no client here. and the communications in question, the stuff that's been divulged to fox news and the world involves communications with mike pompeo who's not his client or to the ukrainians, not his client. so attorney-client privilege wouldn't apply. plus rudy giuliani has some issues, he could violate federal extortion or bribery laws, possibly the foreign corrupt practices act. so he's got to be really careful here and ultimately i don't think it's going to end well for him. up next we'll talk to a member of one of the committees investigating all this. congressman ro khana of the oversight committee joins us next on "morning joe." oversight committee joins us next on "morning joe." great riches will find you when liberty mutual

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under the senate rules we're required to take it up if the house does go down that path and

we'll follow the senate rules. it's a senate rule related to impeachment that would take 67 votes to change, so i would have no choice but to take it up. how long you're on it is a whole different matter, but i would have no choice but to take it up. >> senate majority leader mitch mcconnell has seemingly come to grips with the potential reality of putting president trump on trial. if the house advances an impeachment vote. meanwhile, president trump is seeking advice on how to move forward as house democrats impeachment, the push continues. "the washington post" reports that trump has spoken to friends, outside confidants and republican lawmakers behind the scenes on how to proceed. that's according to a senior administration official. some republicans are pushing the white house to setup a more organized approach saying so far there has not been a clear plan or strategy to defend trump. hard to defend that memo that the white house put out, but

that'll be interesting. joining us now member of the oversight and armed services committees, congressman ro khana of california. he's a cochair of bernie sanders 2020 presidential campaign, by the way. and also with us award winning journalist and author, elisia menendez. she will join msnbc as a weekend anchor with the line-up details to come in the next few weeks so congratulations a lot going on in your life. her first book "the likability trap" will be published this november. that's amazing, good gracious and a baby. so congressman, i've been combing through all the different pieces covering this impeachment story, and it appears that there are some in the media especially who are connected to the president in

some way who feel that this impeachment effort is very confusing is in the weeds and too hard to follow. so could you help those viewers and those folks and explain exactly what the scope of the impeachment effort would be? >> actually, it's very simple. the president compromised our national security by seeking political dirt on his rival from a foreign leader. that one sentence sums up the central case against this president, and it's why you see the polls moving. i mean the majority or at least half the country now supports impeachment. and that's very different than just two weeks ago. >> congressman, it's willy guice. i want to ask you specifically about your republican colleagues in the house. because we've heard these anonymous quotes and jeff flake who's now out of the senate saying if you took a private ballot there'd be 35 republican

senators who want to get rid of president trump. what's the impression you get from your private conversations? you don't have to divulge who they were but just broadly in the house and republicans feeling right now, what's your congressional colleague on "60 minutes" flailing his way through an interview trying to change the subject about what happened in that phone call with the ukrainian president, what are your republican colleagues telling you behind the scenes. >> almost all the folks think what the president did is inappropriate. there are a number who don't think it rises to an impeachable offense. but i'll tell you something i'm hearing. most of the members were just appalled by the president's tweet, the president retweeting about a possible civil war in the united states. the president threatening adam schiff with treason. and i'm glad adam kissinger, an illinois republican actually spoke up. >> so why, congressman, does so

few of them speak out in public? why was congressman kissinger the outlier? >> because the president so dan dudley is still popular in their districts and they believe that speaking out against this president and the president tweeting something out could cost them their seats. i mean look at justin amash, the day he came out for the impeachment inquiry the next day his numbers were under water in a republican primary in his own district. >> i loved you summed it up in one sentence. there's also a second sentence. i loved when you said in your tweets this impeachment inquiry is about our national protection. if democrats could keenly say we're protecting our constitution, protecting our national security, it's not even about him, it's what we're doing for us. >> that's a great point. this is about making sure that no president of the united

states can look at our military aid or our apparatus of government as something in their own personal benefit. the essence of american democracy is you serve to protect the united states constitution and our country. here you're conditioning military aid to get dirt on a political opponent and i think we've got to keep it simple and as you put it, make it about protecting the constitution, standing up for our national security. >> i wanted to ask you about the time frame. what do you think about the process? how long or how quickly will this take? >> well, as the speaker said, she wants to move expeditiously and follow the facts. i personally think we have most of the information. we should get this done before the end of inyethe year for two reasons. one, we could talk about our positive agenda and second i want our nominee to be the face of the party in 2020. i frankly don't want house democrats to be the face. i want them to run on a positive

agenda. so i think we should wrap this up this year and then move on. >> congressman elisia menendez has a question for you. >> i want to pick up on the scope of this inquiry. there are those who think it should remain very narrow, focused on this ukraine issue. there are also those who understand it's not enough to bring impeachment to the table. look at abuses of pow, actions of subordinates. how narrow or broad do you think this inquiry should be? >> well, the public case i think should center around what happened in ukraine, compromising national security, violating our constitution, seeking dirt on a political rival. that should be the main case and that the president has admitted this. he's admitted it on national television. he brags about actually doing it. in terms of the actual articles i think jerry nadler's committee can have many different articles

for emoluments clause or other aspects of the president's violations but it should center around ukraine. >> the third quarter fund-raising numbers for the sanders campaign, in the poll data you guys have been coming in third, but you see to be really strong. you pulled in 25 million. talk a bit about what the third quarter fund-raising suggests about the sanders campaign. >> senator sanders has extraordinary gas roots support. he has over a million donors. the biggest donors to his campaign are teachers and workers at wal-mart and amazon who know he's going to work and fight for working class americans. this is three person race. the vice president, senator warren, senator sanders. the poll numbers are all over the place. i think politico yesterday still had the vice president leading and senator warren and sanders more or less tied. but we're still confident it's

going to come down to the early states. >> he's still doing well in fund-raising but i know you watch the polls. you show elizabeth warren now climbing in the polls. how do you talk to a voter who has bernie sanders or elizabeth warren in front of her or him and deciding to make that choice, they decide they have progressive credentials but feel bernie had his shot last time. what do you say to that voter? >> well, first of all i think senator sanders has a very progressive record on foreign policy. i worked with him to help stop the yemen war. he's voted against president trump's defense budget increases, so he's going to highlight his progressive foreign policy record. the second thing is if if you look at the polls actually a lot of senator sanders' support can come from vice president biden. and i think the contrast he will draw is that he actually is the true champion for the working class, and he can build a winning coalition as some of those working class voters

choose him over the vice president. >> you'd agree senator warren could make almost an identical case you just made. so what's his advantage over her? >> well, i think two things. one, he can connect with rural communities. i've seen him do this, and he has won in areas that we need to win in wisconsin, pennsylvania, michigan. so i'm not saying senator warren couldn't, but i think senator sanders represents a rural state and can make that argument he'll be able to defeat president trump. >> congressman, thank you so much. appreciate your being on this morning. >> thank you. let's run through some other headlines. new york republican congressman chris collins sent a letter to house speaker nancy pelosi yesterday stating he's resigning from his house seat, a source familiar with the matter told nbc news.

collins letter comes ahead of his expected guilty plea. later today two charges related insider trading according to documents filed in federal court on monday. collins was charged with insider trading in august 2018 along with his son and the father of his son's fiance. the three men were also charged with lying to the fbi to profit on insider knowledge about a buyer tech firm. the congressman's resignation will become effective once his letter is read on the house floor during today's pro forma session. texas congressman mack thornberry, the top republican onnen the house armed services committee announced yesterday he will not be running for re-election in 2020. thornberry, a 13--term long maker who represents a heavily ksh district in texas is the sixth member of the house gop caucus from his state to announce his retirement this year. in a statement released yesterday thornberry said,

quote, for everything there is a season and i believe that the time has come for a change. and the manhattan u.s. attorneys office is diving into the ongoing legal battle involving president trump's tax returns. in a letter to a judge overseeing the case u.s. attorney jeffrey berman indicated his office would participate in a lawsuit filed by trump that seeks to block a subpoena on his financial documents. the office will file a submission by tomorrow. according to "the wall street journal" last month trump sued the manhattan district attorney's office after it sent his long time accounting firm a grand jury subpoena to obtain tax returns dating back to 2011. will these tax returns ever see the light of day? >> i mean, if history is any indication, then we will continue to wait and see. i think the question with this is that when you look at these polling numbers, right, that have to do with impeachment we

keep saying they're rising but really there's been democratic consolidation, some independent movement. and we keep asking what it will take to move on that. and you look at all the issues that have led up to this moment. none of them seemed have tipped that support. the question is what will. >> that is the question. up next latinos in america aren't just driving a new political dynamic. there's also powering the country's economic engine. we'll dive into that. and as we go to break, a look at what's happening on know your value.com. we really focus on sharing in a real way so that we can help lift each other up, and there's an incredible piece about congresswoman susan wild from pennsylvania. it's on suicide prevention and her own deeply personal story of losing her partner to suicide. also on-air and pregnant, i'm obsessed with these stories. and now four cnbc hosts are all pregnant and using their financial skills to prepare for

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from just 2015. output for hispanics and hispanic owned businesses make up a quarter of the u.s. economy. that is more than brazil, italy, and canada. >> and joining us now is the collaborative -- a business based initiative. >> narrator: a known economic contribution of latinos. adequate us through into this report. why do you think it is so significant. >> you had some of the data there on the cover. most of us don't understand how our economy is recovering today. we have a declining cohort on

nearly every metric you want to look at. and we have 3.6% in there. i look at it as a probably unhealthy metric and most of us when we look at real data we have a labor crisis looming given the growth rate that is there. so we have the latino cohort. the $2.3 trillion. it is growing dramatically faster. it is applying 80% of the new entrances to the labor force. the consumption side is 70% faster than the economy, all kinds of great data and it is important that everybody know that. and i mean our country for all people. not just for latinos, but all people. >> as a guy that has run businesses, hires people, explain more about that red flag you saw. >> the red flag is that our growth rate is at such a low

level that literally we're losing about $300,000 baby boomers every month out of the workplace. and that is going to peak in 2022. so every month we start at a net negative. the second thing, as businesses, when you're a $14 trillion economy versus a $20 trillion economy, the amount of new absolute volume growth you need is dramatically higher. we're looking at numbers the way we compare to 2014 and 2015 and it is jst wust way off. we have to start solving the problem of our labor force, or lack of labor force growth rate. that means we have to deal with immigration in a fulsome way for all americans. this is not about doing something you specifically, you

know for latinos, this is for everybody with a child, a grand child, because not only do we have big deficits, but we're going to have a deficit in workers and that is something we all need to work with. >> so you're a poised ceo working right through the light bub that just exploded above your head. >> given your economic indicators, if you were advising a 2020 candidate how should this information your economic agenda. >> how did we catalyze more capital. that was part of our conversations last week. and secondly a candidate needs to think about this labor force growth rate. immigration reform needs to be at the top of everybody's agenda if you're an american that cares about growth.

the second point is that it is a crisis because we cannot fuel 2:2 2% growth. look at historical numbers, look where we are, look where we're going in terms of most economist estimates in terms of gdp. >> it sounds like it would be reasonable and rational, but we're in a moment where there is all sorts of ugliness in our public discourse. as you tell this particular story, how do you square it with what we hear and feel, the deep i have t vitrial. >> we have to get everybody understanding the data and how

economies are getting worse in some cases and better in other cases. let me give you an example. in a red state, in north carolina. we had a boom in terms of jobs. it is a small state that has been terrific. and then you look under that they have a demographic boom of a lot of hispanics and latinos, it is high wages, well paid, when i think when people understand the benefit to all as opposed to the benefit to some, it is better understood. >> thank you for walking us through those numbers. >> of all of the scary things to

happen in the last few weeks, that is the scariness. >> i want to shout out to jesse norman. what a life and a career. thank you, thank you all for being with us. that does it for us on "morning joe." stephanie ruhle picking up the coverage now. >> it is tuesday, october 1ths. 234 the last 24 hours alone, a subpoena has been issue today rudy juligiuliani. mike pompeo was on that july 25th call between president trump and the leader of ukraine.