tonight. we had a wild one. i hope you join me again at 6:00 p.m. eastern tomorrow. and up next it is "hardball" with chris matthews. the whistleblower versus the tweeter. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. for ten days now running in fact this president has attacked and attacked the whistleblower who dared tell the american people what trump was up to in trading u.s. national security for something he could use against his political rivals. it is all about trump trying to hide his wrongdoing now by making this about how he was caught in the wrongdoing. unable to justify his betrayal trump's attacking the messenger of course. like a boss in the rackets he calls the whistleblower's

sources spies and obsesses about finding out the person emphasis true identity which the law says should be protected. trump today tweeted why aren't we entitled to learn ininterview the whistleblower and also the person who gave false information to him. trump is caught and refuses to admit. the fake whistleblower he tweets, isn't holding up and says he or she isn't a whistleblower after all. well, it's all about part of what "the washington post" characterized as an increasingly frenetic counter assault targeting the anonymous intelligence officer. trump's strategy, however, ignores the fact the whistleblower's complaint is now beside the point because trump's wrongdoing is already established, well-established by the white house summary of his call with ukrainian president zelensky. responding to the president's attacks on the whistleblower democratic senator mark warner of the senate intelligence committee said that kind of

rhetoric can only serve one purpose, intimidation of this whistleblower. and while he didn't mention trump by name republican senator chuck grassly of indiana -- or iowa rather -- says this person appeared to have followed the whistleblower protection laws and ought to be heard out and protected. that's from one of the top republican senators. i'm joined now by ned price, a former nsc senior director, valery, a former cia operative officer and current democratic candidate for congress in new mexico. thank you for coming on tonight and i'm so sorry about your ex-husband, the man who's the father of your children. >> thank you so much, chris. i know joe watched you every night and of course you were enon the very beginning of the story back in 2003 when my cia covert identity was betrayed.

i remember coming into the room and joe hanging up the phone and saying chris matthews just said the white house called you fair game, so our family is devastated. and we've lost not just, you know, from a personal side from a true american hero. >> thanks for coming on this time and especially because of the news now, and the news is about a whistleblower who this president seems to try to d dimuinize and what's it like to be part of that targeting? >> i know exactly what that feels like. i compare it to falling down alice's rabbit hole where white is black and black is white. the same thing happened to us. the bush white house tried to demonize us and make it about valerie plain and joe wilson and why there's no wmd in iraq.

this is what's happening with trump's whistleblower. it's already been confirmed his wrongdoing, his threat to national security. so he's seeking to undermine the whistleblower which enshrined in law should be protected. because what does a whistleblower do? they're seeking to expose wrongdoing, wrought corruption, so trump is a master at this and he'll continue do so. i think he's caught this time. >> this strategy of the president, he does seem caught this time. he's not really challenging what he said, he weakly defends what he says u.s. foreign military assistance as his lever. treating like a rat or fake. >> it's attacking the fbi for

doing its job and investigation -- >> oh, spying on him, that's a nice word. >> and attacking the special counsel despite the special counsel's long record of dedicated public service and now attacking a whistleblower. the facts will come out. there's a lot there, and it's interesting you see how republicans now, some of them starting to caution against jumping to conclusions. ben sasse, the senator from nebraska said lots not circle the wagons around the president quite yet, let's get the facts. and i think you're seeing the right response from many republicans finally on the hill who want the facts before rushing to judgment. >> back to the point here in the beginning which was in the days of nixon and watergate it was, you know, john dean said i remember because he had a photographic memory and he said i remember all these things nixon said. but when we got the tapes of the june 23rd phone call, they used the cia to cover for the fbi to

get the fbi off the case, it was established that dean was right. then you move onto the tape. now we have the white house released memo of the conversation with the ukrainian president. we don't need the whistleblower and now trump is chasing after this whistle man or woman. it's sick. it's also weird because that's not the issue anymore, mr. president. >> well, june 23rd becomes july 25th. it's the same dynamic. i think what we're seeing trump recognize is this scandal, this betrayal is too big for him to take on, so he has to per sawnify it, boil it down to a single individual, someone whose affiliations he can attack, someone he can undermine just the way he did with christopher steele, with bob mueller, with the prosecutors. we all know this is not about a person. this is about our democracy, our

national security. it's about the sanctity of our elections. >> you could tell this from personal history, he looks for weakness, the fact you had to remain in your role with the cia, the fact he knew you wanted to stay and do your job, he played with that. now trump is like if he finds a woman whose looks he doesn't like, he attacks her looks on television. if he sees a person with a physical disability, he attacks their physical disability. if he sees a president on the border with russia and russians have already taken over with their tanks, need some aept tank missile, he needs some javelins to stop the tanks, he says i guess i got you down where i need you and i need some dirt on joe biden. working the weakness of his opponents, it's sick. your thoughts. >> yes, it is. i was really taken with an op-ed piece written last week in "the washington post" by seven former intelligence community members. they are now members of congress, and they said the time has come. they have taken an oath, as i

did, to protect and defend the constitution, and everyone from secretary pompeo down has taken that oath as well, and they need to protect the constitution. that loyalty is not to a person. this is not a monarchy as he seems to believe or a mob boss as he acts like. so we really need to keep that in mind. what the whistleblower did was really patriotic. his identity should be further protected. it probably won't be, it seems. but what he did was really courageous in coming forward. >> well, amid the president's efforts to intimidate the whistleblower secretary of state mike pompeo today refused the congressional request for sworn depositions from five current and former state department officials trying to block key officials in the whistleblower's complaint from testifying. in a letter pompeo accused house democrats of catch this, trying to, quote, intimidate, bully and

treat him properly career diplomats at the center of the request. two of those five officials are still said to be deposed according to nbc news and another breaking development tonight nbc news reports the inspector general at the state department today requested an urgent meeting for tomorrow to brief key committees of the hill, of the house about documents related to ukraine. and so here's what's going on now. issuing subpoenas for sworn depositions is a normal way congress gets information. it's not intimidating, it's trying to get the people perhaps who gave the information to the whistle-blower to do so publicly, but it's certainly a legitimate use of the checks and balances. >> the mike pompeo of today of 2019 would have some very harsh words of the mike pompeo of 2012. he was one of the chief authors and propagators of the benghazi conspiracy theories and he railed against the obama administration.

he accused the obama administration of stone walling when in that case the obama administration turned over tens and thousands of agents and could never -- >> i'm realizing what's -- i thought pompeo was just an ambitious guy. i thought he was another one of these people got to play ball with trump. now i'm finding out he like william barr are trumpian. they believe in all these crazy right wing trumpian conspiracy theories. they can pull him down the rabbit hole with this nonsense. he believes them. the servers over in kiev somewhere, the dnc -- how did they get over there? as long as they can create a crazy distraction. >> the problem i think for the department of justice and department of state is at least half of washington does believe that about the attorney general and secretary. >> they're a part of this process. >> whether they are or not can

be debated but it's unusual for washington to think both cabinet saerks are in the tank for the president, for political reasons. >> that the better than thinking there's an invasion of the body snatchers here, that people are really taken over mentally by this guy's thinking? that's scary. >> it's hard to explain, but, again, if the perception is that doj is not playing it straight or that the state department is not playing it straight and is instead, you know, playing politics, it's not good for the rule of law and for our system of government. >> valerie, people like you, i know people like you who have joined administrations over the years, not civil servants, not democrats or republicans. they just love this country are willing to serve in dangerous roles, especially deep background overseas. we used to give them awards to them. because we couldn't do it publicly, we had to give them secret awards because they might have been kaled in action and you can't even talk about these

people, true spies, the good spies. and what do they think of this crowd that runs the country right now, the pompeos and barrs of this president? >> you serve overseas not an a republican, not a democrat, you serve as an american. and they are all sick and tired of the president denigrating everyone within the intelligence community. he's called them names. he's undermined them, and as a result it's been quite harmful to our national security. i joined the cia because i wanted to serve my country. that's why i'm running. again, i think our institutions are under attackch i want to get back into a public service role and be able to do what i can for my community and for my country. >> after being served with a subpoena for documents yesterday trump lawyer rudy giuliani said he's weighing whether or not to

comply. >> well, i don't know, i'm weighing the alternatives, i'll kind of like go through it. i'll get all my evidence together, my charts. i don't know if they'll let me use video recordings or tape recordings i have. it was clearly under my responsibility as the lawyer for the president of the united states. >> well, giuliani, also told nbc news, quote, i think it's extraordinary people are asking me will i comply. no one seems concerned this is a subpoena on an attorney. now, he's dancing in the end zone there. it's like he's loving this weird role he's in right now. >> i think giuliani probably should have considered his options before he went on fox news multiple times and held up his cellphone and said all the texts are right there. >> i have here 265 names of communists -- he didn't. >> he's made it very hard for

himself i think to avoid a subpoena. if rudy giuliani defies congress, defies the law in this case, the best prosecution, the best witness against rudy giuliani will be rudy giuliani on fox news reading those texts, making the case that he has pertinent records, that he knows and he has records that congress should certainly have access to. >> let's hope we have a good trial in this presidency and these people are called to witness and they have to answer questions under oath. that seems to change things when you have to speak under oath. good luck in your campaign. we want you to do well out there. it's great people like you are public servants and risking it all in the arena of politics. my other guests will stick with us right now for the next segment. coming up all the president's men, trump's private eyes. attorney general bill barr and rudy giuliani. also with the secretary of state are traveling the globe trading america's prestige and good will for dirt on the president's rivals. plus more evidence tonight

public support is building for impeachment and there are reports the white house doesn't have a clear plan to stop it. we've got much more to get to tonight. stick around. we've got much mor tonight. stick around we get it. it's just the way things are. when you're under pressure to get the job done, it seems you have to accept the fact that some equipment will sit idle, or underutilized. but it doesn't have to be that way. that's why united rentals is combining equipment, data, safety and expertise to help your worksite perform better. united rentals. a better worksite is here. before she puts them in the dishwasher. so what does the dishwasher do? (vo) cascade platinum does the work for you. prewashing and removing stuck-on foods, the first time. (mom) wow! that's clean! (vo) cascade platinum.

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someone new joins your network... only with xfinity xfi. download the xfi app today. the attorney general is one of the most respected people in this country, and he has been for a long period of time. he's going to look at a lot of documents, some he might find interesting, maybe he'll find none interesting. he can look. and i hope he looks at the u.k. and i hope he looks at australia. and i hope he looks at ukraine. i hope he looks at everything, because there was a hoax that was perpetrated on our country. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump of course back in may previewing what he wanted attorney general william barr to find out about the origins of the russia investigation. the nation's top law enforcement

officer is one of the many president's men now wrapped up in the ballooning ukraine scandal along with secretary of state mike pompeo. and now william barr faces scrutiny over what we've learned are his globetrotting efforts to dig up dirt on the 2016 election. asking foreign officials for their help in an investigation into the investigators in the mueller probe the department of justice confirms to nbc news president trump sought help in a recent phone call at attorney general barr's request. back in may barr signed john durham to examine the origins of it russia investigation. and "the washington post" reports barr has personally taken an active role. barr has held private meetings overseas with foreign intelligence officials seeking their help in a justice department inquiry.

and last week the attorney general traveled to italy where he and u.s. attorney john durham met senior italian government officials. back with us right now and joined by the white house correspondent for pbs news hour. he's put together a crew, right, and they're out there chasing the white whale, the white whale being any evidence trump and the russians had nothing to do with each other. he wants to whitewash the whole thing and he's obsessed with it. so the purpose of u.s. foreign policy, the purpose of the entire federal government led by this gang is to prove that trump is clean. >> obviously, there was a lot of turn over at the white house to gets to these people. and now he's arrived at attorney general william barr who critics of the president will say is acting much like his personal

attorney who's really there to prove he is rightfully elected and that he has absolutely -- that russia had nothing to do with the 2016 erection. now, there's nobody saying the president wasn't rightfully elected, but there is this idea obviously the intelligence has said russia meddled in the 2016 election and that has continued to bother president trump. i will say i've been talking to a lot of white house sources who tell me this is what attorney general barr is supposed be doing. >> to prove that trump iseen. >> they say it's to prove that the 2016 election was meddled in, that there was some interference. >> why did that become a priority of the u.s. government? >> the white house says it's always been a priority and they kind of throw this back at democrats and say now democrats aren't interested in this because it's no longer top of their list. of course a lot of critics of the president will say a pretty clear violation of u.s. laws. >> it's very interesting. i'm sure the leaders of organized crime are happy to know the entire u.s. law

enforcement effort has been directed towards finding this white whale. so forget about the mob, forget about the opioid problem, forget all the problems we face in law enforcement in the united states because these guys starting at the secretary of state level are in charge of trump's agenda, which is to somehow prove what happened in 2016 didn't happen. >> well, chris, we have to remember that the issue of russian interference and the issue of the origin of the doj russia investigation has been a priority and is well documented by now. numerous senior doj and fbi officials have testified in open hearings on the hill about how the investigation started. they've testified about the russian interference so that the department, the a.g., the bureau, members of congress know the facts. the mueller report goes into it extensively. this review by a u.s. attorney from connecticut appears to be nothing more than a political exercise. if in fact all of that which has been done already to examine

these issues is not adequate then of course the doj i.g., the cia i.g., the ic, i.g. they could all do reviews of bits of pieces of things still uncertain. but nobody who's really paying attention believes any of this is uncertain. and so that just leaves one explanation which is politics. and that's not the purpose of an investigation. >> it seems like what he does in each case is he gets caught. there was russian help in that campaign, whether it was marginally important or not is not important. the fact is they tried to screw with our elections. they rooted for him. they helped him. they wanted hillary definitely to lose. he seems to want to prove not so much it didn't happen as much, he wants to get the people who caught him. like he wants to get the whistleblower. it's a punishment, it's a punitive raid on all the institutions we're talking about. it's to go back there and get even for catching him. >> he doesn't take these issues -- >> but he's not going to prove

he's innocent. >> exactly. and that's why can't take these issues head on. instead he goes on the margins. we have not heard president trump proclaim he's completely innocent when it comes to ukraine. he's really focusing hisire, his energy on the whistleblower. it's the same thing he. he's not taking on russia as a whole. he's taking on the origins of the mueller probe, trying to undermine the origins of this probe, sending his attorney general out to do just that. there's a remarkable line in "the wall street journal" of this. it says trump refers to rudy giuliani and bill bar rng interchangeably. this is the president's personal lawyer and the attorney general of the united states. and the president of the united states can't distinguish the interests of america versus his own personal prerogatives. >> that is the problem. that's what corruption is. he's corrupting a whole system for his purposes. >> the white house -- >> our whole government is working to prove he's a good

guy, which is a hoot. >> critics of the president say that's almost an impossible task and that the idea is now that he has -- he also has this idea he's trying to prove a conspiracy theory which is all of these agencies that were honorable agencies before he was elected, that now somehow the doj and the fbi, that the people working for them, they can't do the job that's setout before them, and it's said it has to be his personal guys that are doing this. that's something very clear, and that's why of course people think this is political gain for them. >> you think it's even deeper than that? i think about this guy trump more than i should but i do. could it be i remember woody allen said what has reality ever done for me? but trump i think believes in that, too. i don't think trump believes in objective fact. i think it's to him whatever bullyish way you can get something sold to people. the house is worth $20 million because i said so.

it's all about power. you can shift peoples belief in objective fact if you scare him enough. >> right, and we see that from time to time in certain people. i guess what's surprising to me and so many others is so many americans have bought into that and so many people who otherwise have good reputations and encouragement in washington bought it. >> why do they hate it this much to like this guy's truth? >> i think it's two things. i think trump may not be able to distinguish truth from fact but i also don't think he can distinguish right from wrong. i think when president trump says it was a perfect phone call, he may actually believe it over the objections of secretary of state mike pompeo, over the objections of his treasury secretary. >> he may not have this developed sense of propriety of right or wrong -- >> when you're being careful as a journalist, you're being

careful as a gentleman. >> but he's also blatantly told us americans what he would do. in that interview he would i would invite foreign leaders to give me dirt on my political opponents and say part of the reason why republicans are kinds of shrugging at this is because the president has laid this out, he's at least started the american people down this idea it's okay for him to do that. >> he claims a mandate from the american people to get dirt on his opponents? >> i don't think he's claiming for a mandate but saying why would anyone else do that? it you're sitting at home and maybe you don't understand the laws of this country in any way, wouldn't you wand anybody giving you dirt -- >> "the wall street journal" reports that trump's two highest profile lawyers are again struggling to get on the same page this time in the face of an

impeachment inquiry. quote, the president's relationships with his private lawyer who once aspired to be his attorney general and the man who currently has that post are complicating white house efforts to build a legal and public relations strategy to keep mr. trump in office. he may not have planned on that, greg. what are they up to? rudy wants to be crazy at 9:00 at night, and that seems to be his bewitching hour, if you will. he goes on fox and does his stuff. skbr and that's the irony here. for those who think the attorney general is acting too politically it's funny to watch the fact rudy giuliani is frustrating the attorney general. so the team can't get it quite together. >> thank you ned price, greg bower. still ahead it's an odd messaging war now being waged around the issue of impeachment. pelosi saying keep it simple. while the white house is making outrageous claims and accusations to confuse people.

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talk to your doctor about mavyret. welcome back to "hardball." there's been a dramatic up tick in popular support for impeachment inproceeding and even from removing the president from office. 49% think it's a good idea for

congress to conduct an impeachment inquiry. and 44% of americans areied tee impeach and excel him from office right now. no need for indictment by the house, no need for a trial by the senate. 44% say be gone. additionally a majority of americans believe president trump's call with the ukrainian president was inappropriate. well, trump's supporters are standing firmly behind him, of course. but do they support the scorched earth more he's waging right now? that's next. you're watching "hardball." ight now? that's next. you're watching "hardball. r? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ sleep number 360 smart bed. numbers fall sale on the can it help keep us asleep? yes, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. the queen sleep number 360 c4 smart bed is now only $1,399 plus 0% interest for 24 months. only for a limited time. can't imagine doing it any other way. this is caitlin dickerson from the new york times. this isn't the only case.

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welcome back to "hardball." according to "the washington post" the white house has not yet setup anything resembling a war room to coordinate a response. the president's outside legal team played down the threat of impeachment and dismissed the need for any kind of coordinated war room based on the clinton investigation 20 years ago when they did a very good job of

defending clinton. president trump taking the lead on a scatter shot defense lobbying threats of a civil war and calling adam schiff who's the smart guy coming after him a traitor. "the washington post" also reporting that some republicans have pushed the white house to setup a more organized approach and have lamented there's no clear plan or strategy. how would you rate his defense in the last week against what looks to be a growing american popular support for impeachment proceeding? >> i see it as the defense of everything since he announced himself as a candidate, the defense starts on twitter. frankly this is why the republicans have a much more difficult challenge trying to stay on message with this because we're following a

president that puts out lots of different messages -- >> is his message i didn't make the phone call, but he put out a summary of what he did say in the phone call. it's not a fact argument. it doesn't matter, leave me alone -- >> in afairness to the presiden i think he agrees it's much broader than that. flynn's a good guy, go easy on him, didn't happen. that's impeachable. and then all of a sudden russia and mueller -- the problem is this president -- >> but that was never a big percentage of democrats you're you're characterizing some of the democratic party aggressive on this as most of the party. >> how about the speaker of the house? nancy pelosi, i think one of the reasons why there's growing continual support for an impeachment inquiry at this moment is because factually nancy pelosi has been resisting,

resisting an impeachment inquiry until this moment where we had a new set of facts in which the president in his own words, in his words -- let me finish the sentence is admitting to essentially extorting an ally to dig up dirt on biden and then he's like it's okay, it's all okay. >> she announced the investigation the day before anybody even knew it was in the transcript. >> the whistleblower complaint had been circulating around and she wanted an inquiry because the president has been obstructing all other investigations. >> but she couldn't even wait until the day that he put the transcript out, not the whistleblower. let me ask you this -- everybody saying it's quid pro quo, right? did they investigate biden? >> he promised if they

investigate but they got their aid, he did want get his -- >> everybody thinks that attorney general should go. >> let me make it clear. you've asked a question and i will answer it. a quid pro quo is not necessary. this looks like a shakedown and extortion to the american people because literally the president is asking for a foreign government to dig up dirt on biden, end of story. the president has already admitted to it. >> let's go to the key details of the whistle-blower's complaint. for instance, the whistleblower said trump was pressing for an investigation into the activity of joe biden. the white house confirmed the trump race had substantial allegations against biden and asked zelensky to look into it. and the white house memo confirms that trump said i will tell you rudy and at or near barr to call. the whistleblower alleged trump had a meeting while waiting to see if zelensky would be waiting

to play ball and when trump says i would like you to do us a favor, though. this whistleblower is like john dean, but they damn well are good in their report over what was in that phone call. >> what the president said is, look, we're thrilled but you're going to get rid of corruption. oh, by the way, joe biden bragged he was part of that corruption. >> can i ask you a question? >> yeah. >> did we do an investigation of joe biden and his son? >> i think we should look at the facts we have, and no it's not necessary because there's nothing there. >> how would you investigate? >> i think it's fair to see if there's quid pro quo in the sense that there was anything that they benefitted by -- >> you mean just in general -- >> no, no, no, i'll make a deal

with you. let's investigate all elements of corruption against all the children. ivanka trump, don, jr., eric and all -- there's no investigation in this. >> ths democrats have hijacked the united states congress and now it's -- >> should we investigate or no? should we investigate the trump family and all their participation? >> i think you guys want to investigate everything. >> let me go back to my topic. >> there's one democrat coming out and saying you know what if we're going to go after trump -- >> let's fauk about the whistleblower here. are you with trump and his attempt to intimidate this whistleblower? all the attacks he's been under for the last several days, just attacking. >> i think the context donald trump looks at is there were

people with political ideologies opposed to his and they're going to use that to m.d. mine -- >> do you think this whistleblower did something wrong? >> i have no way of knowing that. >> you have evidence they did? >> i have no idea, but i'm teing you that's the context -- >> should we have whistleblower protection, like when they say when you take amtrak, if you see something, say something. we know in the 1930s people knew about the german arms, they'd leak that -- and sometimes it's really valuable to us, very valuable. >> and we did learn last week there is a loophole the whistleblower technically can't do it -- there isn't a protocol for doing it against a sitting president. >> no, this was disputed all yesterday. we know that they have the right. the whistleblower followed all the laws that the time. >> in the hearing last week that was wrong when that was said?

>> no, i'm saying this was reported out yesterday and these allegations you're making are wrong. >> i'm going back to my belief that barack obama had ever held up foreign military assistance to get some dirt on one of his opponents the renes would be unbelievably -- a manly defense of a hopeless case. up next former british prime minister david cameron a conservative joins us to talk about actual can have values as opposed to the current republican lawmakers here. you're watching "hardball." law. you're watching "hardball.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump continues to defend his phone call with the ukrainian president, repeatedly calling it perfect. the president today tweeted again about that july 25th call saying it, quote, could not have been nicer, warmer or better. well, not everyone has agreed with the president's assessment of course and late today i spoke with former prime minister of the you can, davidcomeren who's out with a new book "for the record." i began by asking him how our countries ended up with leaders like donald trump and boris johnson. the big question is what happened to our two countries? how did we get donald trump and boris johnson? what is in the water of our two countries? >> i think there's some background we share on both these issues which is the 2007, 2008 economic crash and crisis.

>> yes. >> we have both had the biggest banking collapses, the deepest recessions. i think from that came a lot of economic insecurity and also perhaps quite a lot of cultural insecurity with high levels of immigration and people looking for different answers. and i think that's one of the things that perhaps lies behind the brexit vote and perhaps president trump's election. there were other things, too. and what we have to do now in politics is try and address those underlying causes. >> well, we both have constitutions so what would happen if the prime minister, the role you played was caught going to another country and saying we'll condition foreign military assistance on you giving me some dirt on my political opponents. what would happen in your constitution? >> i think the next prime minister's questions would be pretty tough, possibly even terminal i suspect. it's not a conversation i ever had or ever would have, but i'm going to probably leave it there because i think one of the

strengths of the u.k.-u.s. relationship whoever is the president, whoever the prime minister we want them to get along. so we shouldn't spend too much time getting involved in each other's domestic politics. >> for the record, here's my question. we all know what happened in 1940 when britain was under attack by the nazis and all alone and our president said i need 50 destroyers. supposed he had said yeah i'll give you the 50 if you give some dirt on the guy running against me. >> i can see how you're doing that. i've said what i said. >> let me ask you a philosophical question because donald trump was lifelong democrat, pro-choice and he decided to run as a republican and posed himself as a conservative. do you see trump as a fellow conservative? you're a tory. >> i don't see the economic

policy as particularly conservative. when i was elected prime minister in 2010 we had the biggest budget deficit forecast for the entire world and we had to reduce that. that meant cutting spending, even putting up some taxes. we were fiscal conservatives. and to me a real conservative is someone who recognizes that if you rack up big deficits and you rack up big debts, you put that on your children and your grandchildren and that's not a conservative thing to do. >> and another conservative position in modern times has been free trade. >> indeed. and i'm a convinced free trader. >> trump's not. >> and there are many areas where we don't agree. climate change would be another one. the future of nato and the vital importance of nato might be another one. but the point i want to make is we have to work together and we did work together. >> let's talk about that. we're all anglo files. we like the special relationship. we love the facts the brits are

with us when we have the face the world in tough, troubling times. we do appreciate that relationship. is it still there? >> i'm a romantic believer in the special relationship when i became prime minister seeing our military worked together, our intelligence works together, the relationship i formed with barack obama, i think it is there. it's always going to be more difficult when you have a president who takes these positions on trade and climate change and what have you. but even with that going on, we've been working together very effectively on combating isis. the president has turned out to be perhaps more of a supporter of nato than we thought he was going to be. even on ukraine, a country i didn't entirely want to get into but actually britain and america have led the way on sanctions against russia, so the relationship is still there, but it's obviously going through an interesting phase with the way our country -- >> on your book -- let's talk about the book a bit you talk a lot about brexit of course. and the united kingdom is still

in limbo on that one. prime minister boris johnson said britain will leave the european union at the end of this month with or without a deal. in your book you claim boris johnson never actually believed in brexit. you write the fundamental conclusion i am left with is he risks an outcome he never believed in because it would risk his political career. >> he had never previously argued for brexit. he was a euro skeptic, to be fair to him. the brits of the european union he didn't like just as i did didn't like some bits of the european union. what i said to him if there's a better deal on the table which there was, why argue leaving now. anyway, we're past that point. the u.k. voted to leave, but as you say we've been in limbo for three years and we need to leave that. leaving without a deal i do not think is sensible politics or sensible economics. and parliament has now effectively legislated to stop it from happening. so i don't think it's a

realistic choice. >> can you keep the border open between the north and it the republic of ireland? >> yeah, we must and we should. i think there's going to need to pea some compromises on both sides. you know, the european union has to understand that northern ireland is part of the united kingdom, we are one country. the british have to understand the single market and making that work but there has to be some compromise. >> your book is "for the record" available in bookstores now. great book. of course a lot of americans would like to see a united ireland. up next are americans themselves ready to stand up to trump the bully? you're watching "hardball." the bully? you're watching "hardball. performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that

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when donald trump went up against hillary clinton his strategy was to bully her. look at him lurking over her. look at how he's trying to in m intimidate her physically, showing off like an eight grader in recess time. watching her today threaten the whistleblower i'm tempted to say there you go again, mr. president. this isn't about arguing your way to the truth or even try to win the national audience over

to your side. this is about donald trump caught without an albi, caught on the very account the white house released with his ukrainian phone call with a president, caught trying to exploit his role as america's commander in chief and yes leader of the free world. this underscores a cheap opo on some potential democratic rival. and now he's caught trump is trying to punish the person caught on the tip on the guy who's got the guts to testify. and the this whole trump story is the same from chapter one on. making fun of the face of a rival who's a woman, bragging about his ability to assault or women, lampooning a reporter with a disability. and more recently asking a dets prt leader a favor, a favor in trade for the only thing that leader wanted. and now he wants to bully the one person who tipped us off to it. trump never changes. the only question is whether the

american people are ready as a proud people to stand up to him. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us tonight. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> what do you know about those conversations? >> the first big showdown of the impeachment era. >> so you just gave me a report about a i think whistleblower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> tient why democrats are accusing the secretary of state of trying to stone wall and obstruct the inquiry. then -- >> is it time to dare i say lock him up? >> new alarms over the justice department and the state department investigating the president's enemies. >> we have found many crimes on the other side. >> then new evidence republicans may be misjudging the politics of impeachment. >> trump should come out and say you want to impeach me, knock yourselvesut