because it is a quote real dump, which white house officials deny. that does it for us on this wednesday morning, i'm yasmin vossoughian along side ayman mohyeldin. "morning joe" starts right now. >> you know, if it wasn't your show, they would destroy him absolutely. you're the difference between donald j. trump and richard nixon. in nixon's case if he had someone that stuck up for him, he wouldn't have been, you know, motivated to cover up that burglary. >> donald trump -- >> wait, wait, hold on. was that a compliment? you know, if al capone had had someone like you, sean, come on. are you kidding me? if mussolini, you know where we're going here. her ral doe was the same guy -- didn't he say he wanted to punch people in the face?

>> donald truas geraldo notes r nixon doesn't have a sean hannity. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe" it is wednesday, october 2nd. >> along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments, elise jordan, president of the counsel on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haass and historian, author of the soul of america at vanderbilt university john meacham. he's an nbc news and msnbc contributor. >> he called the whistle-blower a rotten snitch was what he said on fox news, yeah. >> and i think he wanted to hit

somebody, i forget who. we'll be getting to how republicans, there are actually some republicans who understand that at some point a democrat will be president of the united states again, and this whole whistle-blower idea is actually a good idea and we probably should not have presidents threatening treason and the killing of whistle-blowers. so anyway, we'll get to that in a little bit. before we get into all the bizarre news. >> there's a lot. >> some very sad people who have decided that they want to go out of their way to defend an extraordinarily corrupt president who has absolutely no respect for constitutional norms. let's talk baseball. the brewers willie had an extraordinary run at the end. the birds had an extraordinary run at the end of the year without the best player i think in the national league. they went up 3-0 last night, i was sure it was over for washington who has had one sad

post-season after another, but wow, what an incredible comeback last night. >> you know, joe, if only the milwaukee brewers had you, it would have been a totally different situation last night. that's juan soto, a base hit to right field. bases loaded, two outs in the 8th inning. an error in right field. the ball gets under his glove. the three runs crossed the plate, 4-3. they'd hold on to win in the 9th inning. i know you are feeling for the long suffering washington nationals fans. a cool scene, beer flying everywhere. tough moment for that kid in right field, but the nats move on. >> that's the thing about baseball, the isolated positions. you're in it, you make the error, everybody sees it. it's not like you miss a tackle. it's right there for everyone to see. big win for the nationals no doubt about it, and as joe alluded to, the brewers, god love them, they played most of

september without christian yeli yelich, one of the best players in the national league. they had a great run, and it ended last night like that. terrible. >> listen, we're showing that one play, but actually, willie the pitching after scherzer got out of some trouble in the beginning, the pitching between scherzer and strasburg. that's a team that did everything they needed to do to have the honor of going up against the buzz saw that is the los angeles dodgers. >> get on a plane and fly across the country and play the do dodgers. who knows, short series, that's the beauty of the playoffs. the nats haven't been able to get past this round of the playoffs. they've got a tough challenge in front of them. we've got another good one tonight, tampa bay.

>> richard haass says the playoffs don't begin until friday when of course your minnesota twins play america's twins. >> yankees. >> america's -- >> the twins really are, i think, richard you'll agree with me, they are america's team, and i think we all could do well to get through these troubles times if we can unite on one thing, and that is the glory of this twin's team and how they need to beat the yankees. >> okay. the president is ratcheting up his anti-impeachment rhetoric. first it was treason. then he repeated a claim that it would cause a civil war like fracture. now he's going here. what's taking place is not an impeachment. it's a coup. the notion that democrats are trying to violently overthrow the president is nothing new. in far right media circles, but it has since been used by president's aides and

congressional allies to describe the impeachment push. >> make no mistake about this, this is nothing less than an attempted coup de tat. >> this is an attempted coup by the intelligence community. >> it's worth noting that a coup refers to the illegal and at times violent overthrow of a leader. impeachment is the legal process for removing the president as laid out in our constitution. so willie, this is so tiresome. it's also extraordinarily reckless coming from the president. we have to at least give bill clinton that, it's something he never did talk about a coup being carried out against him. but you know, a lot of democrats did. i said yesterday all that's old is new again. it was maddening when democrats

were running around during the clinton impeachment talking about how it was a coup, it was a republican coup, it was a partisan coup. jerry nadler said it, maxine waters said it, john conyers head of the judiciary committee, or the ranking member said. as i said then as a member of congress and i say now, no, it's actually not a coup. it is a constitutional process. our founders and you can go back and look at federalist papers, our founders looked very closely at whas required for removing a president. all of those republicans who are saying that it is a coup, i don't think any of them actually believe that even if the house impeaches the president that the senate's going to remove him. so again, more bluster, more lyi lying, more misrepresenting. more twisting of the truth to protect that one man, a man

whose poor, poor mind actually has scurrying around inside of it dreams of motes filled with snakes and alligators and flesh piercing spikes objen the top o imaginary walls, this man who has no respect for constitutional norms, who orders businesses out of other countries, twwho orders our nat allies to give him greenland, who calls the federal reserve chairman the enemy of the united states for trying to stop or saying critical things about tariffs. this is who all of these people are putting their reputations on the line for to defend. >> a lot of people waking up will think you made up some of those details about theand the . nope, those are quotes from the

president of the united states. as for donald trump we ought to be outraged when he talks about a coup, when he accuses his political opponents of treason. john meacham, we have a government in the state department with mike pompeo and justice with william barr running around, literally running around the world inbe barr's case, going to meetings in italy, to protect him to chase his conspiracy theories. the government is now operating on the whims, the personal whims, the political whims of the president of the united states. it's no way to run a country. >> it's not, and you're right. we basically had a constitutionalization of narcissism that is essentially what's happened here. on the history point, what's important, i think, to push back against the coup stuff is there was a clear debate in philadelphia and in the ratification conventions in the 1780s about could you impeach a president for what was called

mal administration, just screwing things up, and they decided, no. that that was for the voters. it was very specifically designed for treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors. there was an absolute sense that this was very serious. it should only be undertaken in the event of the betrayal of the country, putting yourself up for sale, and trying to use the government as you say as a personal instrument of power as opposed to having it in trust for the people. maybe this sounds too much like a civics lesson for this hour, but this is actually really important. the entire insight here, the entire experiment that so many people on the right and in trump world want is they believe in america, but it's the america in their heads. it's not necessarily the america that really existed and should

exist. and that america is one where the rule of law is more important than the whim of any president. as far as building motes and putting alligators and all of that, why is it we are building walls and motes at the border, but we can't put up a wall around our own sovereign elections. i think that's the question that should be asked. >> well, it really is, and mike barnicle, that's what's so fascinating, this obsession, this continued obsession with building a wall, which the president, of course, hasn't been able to do because republicans when they were in power knew and said it, the wall wouldn't actually stop people from coming over. there are much better means. you can move past second century china, third century, fourth century china and actually move beyond physical barriers to stop people from coming into our country, and yet here you have

william barr and donald trump running around the world chasing ghosts, still obsessed with the 2016 election. when donald trump's own fbi director, donald trump's own director of national intelligence, donald trump's own cia director, donald trump's own homeland security secretary, they have all said over the past year that the single greatest the threat, seriously, let's just stop here for one second. i want everybody at home to think about this. focus on this. donald trump's entire intel community has told him the very people that donald trump appointed at intel community, to follow up on what john said, think about this, okay? the single greatest threat to america is not thermo nuclear war, it is our democracy being

infiltrated by russia, and yet the president of the united states does nothing about it. the attorney general does nothing about it. moscow mitch does nothing about it. and instead they're chasing fwo ghosts around the planet trying to undermine those intel community leaders, those very intel community leaders that are warning of the coming russian threat. mike. >> well, joe -- >> some might call it treason. i wouldn't. i would just say it's extraordinarily misguided, and it undercuts america's national security every single day. >> every single day. and most people go about their business in this country every single day paying less and less attention to all the noise coming from washington, d.c. and yet, you had the attorney general of the united states bill barr in rome looking over the shoulders of john durham who

was charged with executing an independent investigation of a portion of this madness. i know john durham, and he is a skilled investigator. he's absolutely independent, but he's got the attorney general now apparently looking over his shoulder. that's one count. the other count is mike pompeo, the secretary of state, another constitutional officer, willfully ignoring the attempts by congress, the judiciary committee to subpoena employees of the state department for their views to be questioned in depositions on what is going on. apparently mike pompeo never read article 3 of the nixon impeachments, which has to do with obstruction of justice as defined by refusal to comply with congress's subpoenas, and lastly, richard, i don't know about you, but the continued talk as joe and mika have been mentioning this morning of treason and coup. this is a big country. trump has a truly rabid

following. many of them good and decent people, some of them given the nature of our country, deranged, and you just wonder and you worry about what might inevitably happen. >> two reactions. one is the president and peter king and others are describing impeachment as a coup. if there's a coup going on, it's not the impeachment process. that is what the constitution lays ow. it is essentially what the president and some of those around him are doing by undermining the normal procedures of government, by not allowing congress to play its legitimate constitutional role by attacking the deep state, by going after the independence of the media, not allowing people to testify. that is what is undermining the political system. in latin america, interestingly enough, there's a phrase called self-coups. it's when governments fear people and the normal assemblies

and legislatures moving against them, and they essentially cut them off, and they stop the normal political process. what we are seeing here in the united states is an attempt to stop the legitimate processes of government, to undermine the legitimate organs of government in order to protect the president. this is dangerous, and what you're getting at, this is sowing the seeds of violence. if you delegitimize government, if you delegitimize what is normal, then you're creating a space for something else, and the something else is either extra constitutional political activity or even worse in some ways violence. that is what we're gbeginning t see here. >> why don't we be specific? you can go back to the campaign where donald trump talked about paying money to people that would beat up other people, he would pay their legal bills. talking about how he looked back and fondly remembered the times when people used to get beaten up and carried out of political

rallies. he wished that could happen again. donald trump talking about violence, bragging about a member of congress who beat up somebody in the press and laughing about it because the person in the press had the audacity to ask about health care. then just this past week -- and we could keep going -- you know, donald trump continues to use violent rhetoric. a year ago, of course, he was talking about how his people were tough people, and at some point they were going to explode. they could get violent and world, watch out. and then of course this week the president talks about a civil war. he tweets that a civil war could occur if he were impeached. a civil war wouldn't occur, but he is trying to inspire some very rabid people to shoot others. maybe that's where the 5th avenue shooting comes in. i don't know. he talks about a civil war this week.

he talks about the treason, trying for treason. a congressman, a duly elected congressman who is just investigating a phone call, which i think a lot of americans might think was treasonous, and so after that, of course, he's talking about civil war. he's talking about treason, talking about the possible execution of adam schiff and a whistle-blower, and so elise, you line all of that up, and here is a president that is trafficking in violent imagery, which of course will not lead to civil war, but will lead to the type of unmoored human beings out there who have directed pipe bombs at donald trump's opponents, who have made up hit lists and and the coast forward, i think he's a lieutenant who made up a hit list and a huge

arms cache that he was going to use against members of the media that criticized donald trump as well as the democrats who are running for president against donald trump. and yet this inflammatory rhetoric continues, and republicans are silent. >> joe, i guess it just hasn't gotten bad enough. you wonder what the real low point will actually be, but this is a president who rose to power through lies. he's a president who holds own to his power through lies. he lives in a fantasy land where he cannot himself distinguish fact from fiction, and so you see the severe repercussions throughout his foreign policy, throughout his domestic policy, whether it's, you know, wanting a flat black paint for his, quote, wall that would cost a million dollars more per mile than, you know, a normal paint,

and he's in that la la land, or it's sending his personal lawyer rudy giuliani over to ukraine to investigate just a smorgasbord of conspiracy theories thrown together that hillary's serve is in ukraine and you get to the bottom of that. you get to the government resources that are being wasted that could be used to prevent actual crime and actual criminality in the united states and abroad. it could be used to prevent election fraud. it could be used for so many different things that are valid purposes for our national security. instead it's just more la la land, and really this summer marked even more of a decline in donald trump, and i think that's what we're seeing kind of the peak of right now. >> joe, to your point, i don't think there's anyone around this table or anyone watching at home

who thinks whether president trump is impeached or if he's not reelected that he will go quietly, and so that's the context in which you hear this coup talk and you hear this civil war talk. what will the president do really if he's not reelected, if he's impeached. i remember sitting here in this studio on election day 2016, and we had don jr. on the show, and we had to ask the question, will your father respect the results of this election if he, in fact, loses. and he said yeah, yeah, of course he will. we didn't have to find out the answer to that because president trump won, of course, but there are real concerns about what happens the day after if president trump is impeached or if he loses his re-election bid because this is a president unlike any other. george w. bush won't talk about president obama, president obama's been relatively quiet about president trump, do you really think president trump is going to go away and be quiet? no way. >> he won't go quietly into that dark night. no doubt about that. i do think that the institutions

will hold. i still remain very optimistic about that, certainly more optimistic than my wife, but i do believe that that will happen. what you're seeing right now, though, is not just -- not just the corroding of trust towards the presidency and damage on the presidency that's going to take years to replace, but also other cabinet agencies, other cabinet heads, other people who have always, always understood that their responsibility is to the american people first, and nen y then you see a clip like this of mike pompeo lying through his teeth to reporters on abc and then at the united nations. take a look at this clip. >> "the wall street journal" is reporting that president trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with rudy

giuliani to investigate joe biden's son. what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a report about a whistle-blower complaint, none of which i've seen. >> are you confident that none of your staff -- that you or none of your staff did anything improper in this whole situatiosituatio situation? thank you. >> i haven't had a chance to actually read the whistle-blower complaint yet. i read the first couple of paragraphs and then got busy today, but i'll ultimately get a chance to see it. if i understand it right, it's from someone who had secondhand knowledge to the best of my not only -- of my knowledge. each of the actions undertaken by state officials was entirely appropriate. >> that guy went to west point. what a thug. he's acting like a common thug. he's lying about our country. he was in on a call that he

knows crossed every line of propriety. he was taught that at west point, and he's behaving like a thug. now he's behaving like a thug in trying to basically tell congress that he can do whatever he wants to do and not to reach out to anybody at the state department. it's as if he's adopted donald trump's view of the constitution, that the second amendment gives the executive branch unlimited power. let me say it again, this guy went to west point. he knows better, and he's acting like a common criminal. he's acting like a thug. he's lying through his teeth. he's shaming himself. he's shaming state department employees. and he's shaming the united states of america. he has no excuse. >> this first clip, joe, with

martha in which he garbles his response and seems struck by surprise at the question, all you can think of is duty, honor, country. west point, that's the oath he took upon graduation, and he was there. there's a simple answer to that question, i was on the call. the president did nothing wrong. he's had that opportunity several times prior to being caught in this, but he did not and has not done it. >> mike, do you remember early on, he was throwing rudy giuliani under the bus and everybody was putting out, you know, leaking to the press, so pompeo didn't know anything about this. it was giuliani acting on his own, and that's when poor rudy, all confused and dazed late at night held up his cell phone on a show and said i got the text. look at these texts. >> oh, my god. >> so then volker gets fired. he's been scrambling and trying to cover up. i mean, i don't know that it's

possible. he's actually made this administration look even worse with his lies. >> richard haass has a great book, a world in disarray we've talked about here many times. the book could be retitled a nation in disarray, and sadly it's our nation. we have constitutional offices, the attorney general of the united states, the secretary of state of the united states behaving badly, perhaps even corruptly in this instance, and the government is led by a verbal arsonist who takes to the field each and every day inciting people and inflaming an already volatile situation. these are sad times. >> and i will say, meika, i kno donald trump is causing extraordinary damage to this republic. >> yes. >> to our constitutional norms, to our political norms, just to the way everybody treats each other. my gosh, yesterday jimmy carter turned 95, what a good man.

whether i agreed with him politically or not on so many things, a good man. how we need a good man like that in the white house. >> or a woman. >> again. >> yep. >> sometime soon, but donald trump is ignorant of the constitution. he is ignorant of history. he is ignorant of the political norms that have shaped this great republic for the past 240 years. mike pompeo, though, he studied it. he understands it. he knows it and yet he is willfully every day of husband life -- of his life corrupting that, and he is undercutting everything that he was taught at west point. it is disgraceful. >> pretty confident the truth is going to come out at this point. still ahead on "morning

joe," the president's lawyer gets a lawyer. will rudy giuliani's new attorney advise his client to get off tv? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> i had a couple of talks with civil rights lawyers and a constitutional lawyer today, here's what they're recommending. that we should bring a lawsuit on behalf of the president and several people in the administration maybe even myself as a lawyer, against the members of congress individually for violating constitutional rights, violating civil rights. they're doing extraordinary things. app updates, and support calls... you can never seem to get anywhere. that's why dell technologies created unified workspace, powered by vmware. ♪ a revolutionary solution that lets you deploy, manage, support and secure all your devices from the cloud. so you can stop going in circles,

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welcome back, president trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, has hired his own lawyer to represent him amid the house's impeachment probe into the president. giuliani has tapped former assistant u.s. attorney and his long-time friend jon sale.

sale is best known for his work as an assistant special prosecutor during the watergate investigation that resulted in president nixon's resignation. the move comes just one day after giuliani was subpoenaed by lawmakers seeking documents related to his and the president's efforts to get ukraine's government to investigate the biden family. in an interview, sale wouldn't say whether his client will comply with that subpoena. let's bring in nbc news correspondent heidi prison bella. she's here with her new piece, ukrainian prosecutor says the bidens did nothing unusual. >> we have new reporting on just how giuliani's whole effort over these months to gin up corruption charges against the bidens fell apart skpand it involves my interview with one of ukraine's anticorruption

experts. she says giuliani is turning on the very man who he relied on and worked with for months to gin up these charges. the former chief prosecutor. here's what happened and how it fell apart, lustsenko was fired by the current president zelensky, and this was the entire context for this phone call to understand, which is that giuliani was really dependent on lutsenko to gin up these charges. in the july 25th phone call, you see the president not only pressure zelensky to work with giuliani because they had lost their man, but you see the president actually admonishing zelensky for firing lutsenko. now giuliani is turning on him. he's going to be asked very specific questions about working with lutsenko and lutsenko is going out on all of the networks

this past weekend basically blowing the whole story to smithereens saying there was nothing illegal and that giuliani was obsessed with trying to gin up these charges. this is a really dramatic turn of giuliani on the man who he had been working with. it's important -- first of all, i want to say that this expert told me in her own words that giuliani needed lutsenko to connect the dots in a story that looked like it was real but was not. it's also important to note that she told me that she did not think that it was ethical for hunter biden, the vice president's son to take this position with the energy company burisma in the first place. that was something that she proun frowned upon and she thought was unethical. there was no evidence that joe biden did anything to facilitate that and on the contrary joe biden tried to get this corrupt

prosecutor who was not pursuing the case fired. >> thank you very much. we'll be reading your reporting at nbcnews.com. one year ago "washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi walked into the saudi consulate in istanbul and never walked out. his voice may have been silenced but the post isn't letting him be forgotten, "the washington post" david ignatius and fred hyatt join us next. with my hepatitis c, i felt i couldn't be at my best for my family. in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured and left those doubts behind. i faced reminders of my hep c every day. but in only 8 weeks with mavyret, i was cured.

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did you order the murder of jamal khashoggi? >> translator: absolutely not. this was a heinous crime, but i take full responsibility as a leader in saudi arabia, especially since it was committed by individuals working for the saudi government. today the investigations are being carried out, and once charges are proven against someone regardless of their rank, it will be taken to court, no exception made. if there is any such hfinformatn that charges me, i hope it is brought forward publicly. >> that's the crown prince of saudi arabia three days ago, and exactly one year ago today

"washington post" columnist and legal u.s. resident jamal khashoggi walked into the saudi consulate in istanbul turkey believing he was there to obtain documents needed for his marriage. minutes later he was dead at the hands of saudi agents. joining us now editorial page editor and columnist overseeing the "washington post" opinion section fred hyatt and social editor for "washington post" david ignatius. the "washington post" is out today with a special expanded opinion section featuring a collection of op-eds and special coverage. thanks for being with us this morning. fred, i want to get your reflections on jamal, but first your reaction to that interview on "60 minutes" where the crown prince said i did not order the murder of your colleague jamal khashoggi but i take responsibility as the head of the government here. what's your reaction? >> good morning, my reaction is he's actually doing the opposite of taking responsibility.

everybody who's looked at this seriously, including the u.n. rapport ter and u.s. intelligence agencies have concluded that a crime of this magnitude committed by people so close to the crown prince could not have taken place without the knowledge and support of the very top of the government, and if he were really taking responsibility, he would be allowing these investigations to take place with transparency. he would be telling us among other things where jamal's body is, which we've never learned, and so he's really doing the opposite. the cover-up has continued. >> david, of course the cia concluded that it was, in fact, the crown prince who ordered this murder of jamal khashoggi. your colleague, the president, and his colleagues have cast doubt around the white house on that conclusion continuing to do regular business with mbs, but more broadly this morning on the

solemn anniversary, what are your thoughts about jamal khashoggi, david? >> the saudis from the very top we do believe, mohammed bin salm salman, the crown prince tried to silence a critic who was angering them. they'd been angry at jamal khashoggi for more than a year. they'd talked about ways to silence him. it finally came down to silencing him by killing him. we think he was choked and then his body was dismembered brutally. a year later we're still talking about him. if they thought they were going to silence this voice, silence this criticism of the kingdom, the opposite has happened. that's the powerful thing about the section fred has pulled together. you hear voices from all over the middle east expressing the same ideas about a more open society that our colleague jamal expressed in his columns.

if they wanted to silence him, it didn't happen. >> clearly the saudis were hoping that this general statement about accepting responsibility would somehow allow them to turn the corner. as you made clear, it will not. what now, though, a year later turning to policy should the united states do? mbs is going to quite likely be the effective leader of saudi arabia for years, possibly decades. it's an important country in obviously a critical part of the world. you don't ne what does the united states do when he's in a position of power? >> david. >> just to start, i think saudi arabia and mbs, the crown prince need to take steps to assure the united states that whatever happened -- and we do want to know the truth -- it will never happen again, that there's systems in place that really make for a more reliable, less erratic decision-making. one way to do that, obviously,

would be to have a genuinely transparent process. at this point, the person who we think, our intelligence agencies think was most directly responsible for this plot, an aide, has not even been brought into the legal process, not part of the trial. that's a start if mbs wants to be taken seriously. more generally, we should say to the saudis if you want american military aid, if you want us to back you up and defend you against iran, you need to understand our basic standards. you need to come clean about this. there just needs to be a different relationship from the one we've had. >> fred, john meacham here. >> hi, john. >> you're in the business of connecting dots, and without being hyperbolic, and i don't mean the question to be hyperbolic, could you talk about the climate about dissent and a free press in the united states

and what the murder of your colleague suggests about the ultimate stakes of that kind of crackdown on a climate of dissent, not just in saudi arabia, but around the world? >> i mean, i think if you step back, you think this was an extraordinary crime. an american resident, a columnist for an american newspaper lured into a diplomatic compound in a different country from his own, and deliberately murdered there, if we had a normal american government and secretary of state committed to american values, they would be saying we need a full accounting of what happened. we need accountability for what happened before we can move on in any way because otherwise the implications are really chilling. no jury roournalist anywhere in

world is going to be safe even in diplomatic compounds which traditionally are supposed to be the place of shelter and in any country, and then you -- above that, you have the kind of language we're hearing about fake news and that there is no truth and that the press is the enemy of the people, and that kind of language coming from our own president reverberates and is welcomed by autocrats like mbs around the world. reporters become endangered everywhere, and truth and the journalism we all depend on to find out what's happening in the world also becomes in danger. >> all right -- >> very well put. >> fred hyatt and david ignatius, thank you for being with us on this very solemn occasion, and fred, i am going to start writing my columns again when i finally finish my book. unfortunately i'm using the

barnicle method, which is it's free form. i write a word a day. >> you'll get it done. >> we're saving a space for you, joe. >> all right, thank you so much, fred, and again, thank you so much for being here remembering your colleague. >> thanks for having me. still ahead, the inspector general of the state department is set to give an urgent briefing on capitol hill today, and that urgent briefing concerns ukraine. meanwhile, secretary of state mike pompeo is in italy right now, and is expected to take questions at any moment. of course judging by his last few performances in front of the press, we wonder whether we have to apply the lewandowski standard to him because he, like corey, obviously doesn't feel any responsibility toll tell t truth to americans. we'll be right back. mericans we'll be right back. ah!

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john meacham, you know, watching mike pompeo lie, i'm reminded in all of the back and forth, the sound and fury, i'm reminded a lot of the impeachment of bill clinton, and you know, history has a way of playing things out. we all hear about bill clinton surviving impeachment with 60%, but you know, history hasn't been quite so kind to a president who actually got impeached for lying about sexual harassment and a sexual harassment lawsuit. he was eventually disbarred by the united states supreme court, he was disbarred by the arkansas supreme court. everything sort of shakes out in the end. what does history tell us about people who lie to the american people like pompeo has, and what

happens five years down the road, ten years down the road? >> the american people are among the most forgiving people on earth, except when presidents lie to us or think they can put one past us. just think about the modern era, who's gotten in trouble? lyndon johnson and vietnam, richard nixon damn near everything, clinton and his scandals, donald trump now and also damn near everything. the covenant of modern democracies -- and this goes back to churchill and roosevelt -- is if you give it to us straight, if you're honest with us about the stakes and costs of big public enterprises, if you're honest with us about how complicated and difficult things will be, we'll do what it takes. churchill said in 1942 that the british people can face any

misfortune with fortitude and buoyancy as long as they're convinced that those who are in charge of their affairs are not deceiving them or are not themselves dwelling in a fool's paradise. it's a two-prong test, don't lie to us. don't lie to yourself. donald trump fails both those tests. >> and jimmy carter, going back to jimmy carter, richard haass, turned 95 years old yesterday, asked what he was proudest of, his greatest achievement, he said that i told the truth to the american people. how important is that? not being moralistic here, let's just be hard realists. how important is that that when our secretary of state talks, foreign leaders know they can take him or her at their words. when our commander in chief talks, foreign leaders know they're telling the truth. how important is that, and perhaps is that truth telling by

jimmy carter the reason why he gave us the camp david accords and the opening to china? >> it matters in two ways, joe. one is domestically. we have a representative government. we essentially choose people, and we ask them to act on our behalf. implicit in that is an understanding, is a bond that they're going to be honest with us because we've empowered them in all sorts of ways, and nen internationally the united states is not just another country. all sorts of other countries have placed their future in our hands. that's what alliances are all about. we have been -- a phrase i like -- both the architect but also the general contractor of this world we live in. if we start acting in ways that we can't be trusted, that those who will place their faith this our hands, this is going to lead to a very different world where things are going to essentially unravel and spin away from us, and i think we are getting painfully and dangerously close to that. >> all right, richard and john,

thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, president trump is escalating his antiimpeachment rhetoric tweeting that the impeachment inquiry by democrats is now a coup. we'll talk to congressman and house intelligence committee member joaquin castro about that. plus, academy award winning film maker and best selling author michael moore will be our guest. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back with "the washington post" bob woodward.

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leave it to sarah huckabee sanders to emerge from her cave to put it all in perspective for us. >> the real scandal here is all of the use of the vice president's office that joe biden took part in helping enrich his family. that's the scandal. president trump shouldn't be getting impeached. he should be getting celebrated for actually draining the swamp. >> right. she's still got it, folks. she's still got it. meanwhile, while one beloved former bs artist is back supporting the president, where in the world is sean spicer. ♪ ♪

>> yes, well done. john revolta there. >> wow, willie, so he made it to the next round? >> he survived. >> he got passed around with the ruffles, right? >> travolta weeps. travolta weeps somewhere. >> didn't they all put out some -- >> this is awful. >> other people tweeting that people that didn't love jesus were not voting for him and that if he didn't move forward it was because people didn't love jesus or something. did i miss something in those tweets? >> that sounds reasonable. oh, elise has some reporting on that. >> it's very odd to me because growing up southern baptist, dancing wasn't exactly something you did. it was actually kind of controversial if you decided to go to the high school dance and then go to sunday school on sunday morning, so it's an

intere interesting play, this evangelical vote for dancing with the stars. >> and we should point out, joe, for those listening on the radio that we're showing clips of sean spicer on dancing with the stars, for those listening on the radio, you're very, very fortunate. >> this is the worst dancing i've ever seen, and it's like a very bad version of jane fonda workout video. >> mika, i need to videotape you dancing. there's actually -- i have seen far worse dancing. >> i admit that it's bad. >> by the way, elise, i also a southern baptist, it sounds like you actually have experience on dancing on saturday night and going to sunday school sunday morning, i would as well, but for the fact that i just -- i know this will come as a shock to everybody because willie, when you look at me, you think that guy's a born dancer. >> joe is a good dancer. >> like kevin bacon in jury trial -- in foot loose.

>> it's kind of hard to do the pirouette sometimes. >> spicey's still on. >> my dan ray lewis was a scratch with an injury so he had to pull out, so they let everybody stay. i don't know if it's a commentary on the quality of sean spicer's dancing as much as everybody gets to move forward. >> you're saying ray lewis is in this season? >> he's not anymore, joe. he's not anymore. that completes our coverage of "dancing with the stars" this morning. >> anywho. >> i was just going to say i also am a terrible dancer. that's why i'm so jealous of sean spicer for getting this gig. you get paid a ton of money to work out and dance for a month, and work on your moves and then

you get to wear a flashy costume. >> everybody, look at these moves. >> will he thank his evangelical supporters for this? >> i like that. >> look at this. >> these women are terrible. look, they can't dance. what's going on here. >> those are the pros. >> those are the pros? >> mika, come on. you trying to dance. >> no, it's bad. i say it. do not cast the first stone. >> okay. that's just awful. still with joe, willie and me, we have -- >> it's just awful. msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us, former aide to the george w. bush white house, elise jordan and joining the conversation msnbc contributor noah rothman. >> he's a dancer, you can tell. >> editor of "the washington post" and author of "fear, trump

in the white house" bob woodward joins us and also with us nbc news correspondent carol lee. joe, i will confirm i dance terribly. >> terribly. we all do. >> okay, let's move on to the news as the drama over impeachment marches on, "the washington post" has new reporting on how, quote, a series of disclosures has illuminated president trump's command over key federal agencies revealing how he has compelled them to pursue his personal and political goals, investigate his enemies and lend legitimacy to his theories about the 2016 election. that list so far, the justice department has prioritized a probe that trump hopes will discredit the findings of u.s. intel agencies that russia interfered with the 2016 election. attorney general william barr has met with foreign intel officials to investigate the investigators. the state department is looking into 130 current and former

department officials who sent messages to hillary clinton's private e-mail account, while secretary of state mike pompeo has defied congress by trying to block the depositions of multiple department employees who called to testify in the impeachment inquiry. philip rucker and robert costa write that together, they illustrate the sweeping reach of trump's power and the culture he has spawned inside the government. they continue. the president's personal concerns have become priorities of departments that traditionally have operated with some degree of political independence from the white house, and their leaders are engaging their boss's obsessions. and note that trump moves underscore his transformation as president. >> so bob woodward, you've written the book on donald trump, fear, you continue to study donald trump. this i know is not a surprise to you, but the beginning of the

administration, transition, i actually saw you at trump tower a few times during transition. there was a belief among donald trump and jared kushner that they were going to run the government themselves and they would put people like rudy giuliani as secretary of state who would smoke cigars, slap people on the back and basically do the president's bidding and have basically no independence, and now here we are three years later, you've got -- you've got mattis, tillerson, mcmaster, these people that at least held donald trump in between the guardrails at times gone, and a lot of acting secretaries in his place. where does that leave us at, and how does your understanding line up what philip rucker and bob costa wrote? >> well, of course that's what a president does, takes control of the government. the real issue now in this

impeachment investigation is a big deal. it always has momentum. it looks like the house will impeach trump. the question, i think, and you and i discussed this briefly yesterday, what about the republicans in the senate? when do you reach the point where they'll say enough too much, and i think you've got to have just not an investigation of ukraine. you really need to look in a comprehensive in-depth way everything that's gone on in the trump or going on in the trump administration because as i found in the book fear and working on a second book now, there are lots of things that are hidden. this is a secret government, and the republicans will turn if you go back to the nixon case when

nixon resigned voluntarily, it was because the republicans looked at all the evidence of what nixon had done, and it wasn't just one thing or two. it was 10 or 15, 17 wiretaps, a burglarly a burglary and break-in team working out of the basement of the white house, a massive espionage and sabotage campaign against the democrats, hundreds of thousands of dollars paid to buy the silence of people and s s suborn perjury, you put this together, and that's when the republicans said no and told nixon, barry goldwater went to the white house when the smoking gun tape was released, and nixon wondered how would he do with the senate republicans, and

goldwater said, i've counted, and you have only four very firm votes, and one of them is not mine. the next day nixon announced he was resigning, so to get to this point of what is the trump government, who is trump, you can't just look at one path. you have to look at all. >> you know, mike pompeo, by the way, right now is in a press conference in italy. he's admitted finally to being on that phone call and actually said that the purpose of the entire phone call was simply to help ukraine push back against corruption in that country. if we have any other news worth reporting from that press conference, we will, of course, have our fact checkers look at it first, and then get it to you. so bob, judging from what you said and also our past phone

conversations, you don't believe that a phone call and the president's words will be enough to move a sufficient amount of republicans over to the side of convicting even if the house does impeach president trump. >> i think that's right. i mean, so much of this with trump words, and i think the question is what are the real actions behind this. i mean, you know the republicans better than anyone. i've spent some time talking to republicans now, and you know what they're out doing? fund-raising coast to coast. they can't count the money fast enough. the argument is a very interesting one, and it's got three components. the first one is the mueller investigation, two years they came up with nothing is the argument. the kavanaugh hearing

confirmation, the argument republicans are making is this was a smear campaign, and now we have the third round of this in this impeachment investigation, and they can't count the money fast enough, and i think this number was just released, $125 million raised by trump and the republican national -- excuse me -- committee in the last three months. that is a lot of money. >> that's a lot of money. >> that is a lot of money, even for republicans. >> it's a lot of money. he's spending a lot of money, too, and watching his numbers continue to collapse. the burn rate on social media continues, and his -- the numbers to impeach donald trump just keep going up. you know, it's interesting, as a side note noah rothman, i do

find it extraordinary that republican elected leaders and also trump defenders in the press can say the mueller report came and went and nothing came of it. there was nothing to see there. nothing to see there, move along, they dismiss it in a sentence ignoring the fact that there were ten instances of possible obstruction of justice, and my god, the collusion half of the mueller report is damning despite the fact there were no ultimate conclusions there. and now trying to dismiss this ukrainian call, which you and i have both discussed is deeply disturbing at best. >> yeah, and i tend to agree with bob insofar as the mueller report demonstrates how the president did attempt to obstruct justice but was ignored basically by a lot of his subordinates much in the way that richard nixon was ignored

by his subordinates when he would suggest things like maybe you should go fire bomb the brookings institution. it is a little different in this instance, a foreign government runs a very significant risk by ignoring a president's statement and suggesting that he doesn't really mean it. there's a lot more on the line for a foreign government than an aide, for example. there's some outstanding questions that we don't know, particularly in regard to the inducement. what did kiev know about this withheld aid? was that a factor in their decision-making process? that's going to come up in the impeachment inquiry. what we do know already is the effort to enlist a foreign government in advancing a campaign, whether an action was taken in that sense or not, constitutes something that the justice department has to look at as a federal election violation. we know they said no to that, but it is nevertheless something that constitutes an attempt, at

least, a consideration of criminality, and obviously the house can consider whatever the house defines what impeachment is. we don't think that constitutes an impeachable offense. it is certainly something that suggests a disregard for and a contempt for the law. >> well, and willie, again, the counter factuals, again, what if barack obama tried to get some -- iran to do the same thing against mitt romney in 2012, he'd be impeached by the middle of 2013 and voted out. this really isn't a close call, and yet just based -- and i think the moest damning thing, just based on what we've been told by the white house, which of course makes the president's attacks at the whistle-blower laughable. it makes trumpists who are out there talking about how it's hearsay, which of course is

ridiculous, lindsey obviously didn't take evidence in law school. i'm not sure how he got through law school without taking firstdofirst, you know, evidence 101, but apparently he did. what we know already is disserving. the president of the united states flexed his muscles, used husband power, used his position to intimidate a foreign leader whose country had been invaded by vladimir putin to dig up dirt on his political opponents. on the quid pro quo, i mean, donald trump's quo was researching biden and researching mueller, and researching clinton, researching his political appoinopponents. >> and how do we know all that? a summary of the phone call

dwic given to us by the white house itself. secretary pompeo admitting he was on the phone call, he only did so after he was outed by media outlets. if pr him to say yes i was on the call, we've read the summary of the call provided by the white house, the whistle-blower complaint, what he said he heard, what other people heard in the inside the white house and told him, it all lines up. so yes, pompeo admitted he was on the call a few minutes ago speaking in italy, but he's, again, mischaracterizing what happened on that call. >> well, also, willie, you know, he -- this is somebody who spends more time with the president, is closer to him than basically almost anybody in the many administration, and the idea that he didn't know that this was just about corruption, what he knew was that this aid was being held up. he had that piece of knowledge. he spends enough time around the president to know that this is a grievance that the president has when it comes to ukraine and the

bidens and he knew there was something that rudy giuliani was running around doing regarding ukraine. it's sort of implausible that he went into this conversation thinking it was purely about corruption. the national security adviser at the time, john bolton was against the call because -- specifically because he thought -- he was concerned that the president was going to air some of these personal grievances. so the secretary's explanation delayed is not necessarily going to hold up. i think the other point i would make is that when you look broadly across the administration, whether it's pompeo or the president or his allies inside and outside of the white house, there's just no strategy, and people we've talked to said the president likes it that way. one person i talked to yesterday close to the president said the plan is whatever the president's whim is today, and that's why you see sort of all of these conflicting messages. nothing is unified. you have the president going from coup to civil war to attacking adam schiff, to

attacking the whistle-blower, and that's raising a lot of concern particularly among republicans on the hill. >> so you know, willie, after donald trump got elected president, i went ahead and found a paperback version of "art of the deal." i read the first two pages and closed it up. the first two pages of "art of the deal" line up perfectly with what carol lee just said. donald trump hates making plans. he has no plans, no agenda whenever he goes to the office. he says he just shows up, takes phone calls and see what happens. now, if you invest $400 million from your daddy, i guess you can get away with that for a while until you go bankrupt like donald trump did or like tons of his businesses did, $9 billion in debt, but a little harder to do that when you're president of the united states, which explains the chaos in our international relations. it explains the trade wars with china that he didn't think

through. explains the hostility that he has towards our nato allies, explains so much of this rampant chaos that's going on right now. donald trump doesn't plan. he's a day trader, and he admitted it in his first book, and he's still acting that way 40 years later. >> someday someone will write a recap of the trump years and it might be titled we'll see what happens. that's what he seems to say at the end of every conversation, particularly about foreign policy, we'll see it in two weeks, whatever. there's something else we should sprinkle in here, elise as we listen to mike pompeo play dumb about what happened on that call. that is just yesterday the office of the inspector general at the state department, we've already heard from the intelligence committee's inspector general about urgent concern, but the state department office of inspector general says they have now an urgent request to speak to congressional committees about something pertaining to ukraine. so i don't know how long the secretary of state thinks he can

just put the blinders on and say i don't know what's going on here. especially after rudy giuliani last week went on tv and said the state department directed me to take these meetings with ukrainians. >> secretary pompeo seems to be in quite a bind. you've also got, you know, ambassador kurt volker is going to be testifying tomorrow, and he has the kind of reputation that you can't imagine him going forward and saying anything but exactly what happened. and certainly i would predict -- and i would think based on his past service he will not be a shil for the trump administration. you have to wonder what the calculus is with secretary pompeo given that he has such grand political ambitions and is just seemingly slow just melting in slow motion over the course of this administration. >> yeah, he does have grand political ambitions, and they are slipping away this week as

he gets caught in one lie after another lie after another lie. he even lies about rudy giuliani doing all of this on his own and the state department not knowing anything about it. he got caught in that lie. he got caught in the lie with martha a r martha raddatz. he got caught in a lie at the united nations talking to reporters. again, pleading ignorance when he was on the phone call, so it continues. good luck with that out on the campaign trail. bob woodward said earlier when i said that donald trump had this vision of running the government by himself. this is a guy, of course whorks who a few weeks ago, a guy who said article 2 gave him the power to do whatever he wanted to do, he believed he could do whatever he wanted to do and

that he didn't need cabinet agencies, that they would just get in the way. so i say that to bob, and bob said, well, this is what presidents do, they take control. i don't think it is exactly what presidents do. i can't think of another president three years in that fires one person after another and puts in their place acting secretaries. he does not have secretaries in i think at least six of his cabinet agencieagencies, acting secretaries because donald trump believes that it is his government, that it is his country, and that there are no checks. there are no balances, and there are no benefits of having a functioning executive branch. >> joe, to add to the point that you made in aand that carol lee made, this is an exceptionally unique moment in american history, more so that richard nixon's impeachment. this is a president clearly without conscience or conviction

or character taking the teefiel each and every day with a premeditated plan to inject chaos into the country on an hourly basis, sometimes a minute by minute basis with multiple tweets, and bob, at least to my mind, the difference between today and 1972 to 1974 during the entire coverage of richard nixon and what he did to the government is that toward the end there were people of character in the administration, in the nixon administration who stood tup. the great tragedy is that you have cabinet offices like the attorney general of the united states and the secretary of state of the united states seemingly silent in witness of what they see each and every day. >> i think that's -- if i may answer, i think that's exactly right, and look, this is very serious. i wrote the book on the

governing chaos in the trump administration, and the nervous breakdown that has taken place, but it's not just on one part, and i think the mistake will be if there is not a serious investigation of all of this. everything you've said about ukraine and the players in this is documented and absolutely true. there is much more that is going on. the whole saudi relationship, what's going on with north korea. what's going on -- you go through the list and if there is the sense, ah, this is going to carry it over the line for the democrats by looking at ukraine, i think that's wrong. joe, look, you know the republicans, and they are

sitting asi sitting and feeling kind of good at the moment, and they feel that way because this is -- these are words that have been said. are there actions behind them? what did they really go after joe biden, and so -- >> wait a minute, there are actions. i mean, the held up money is an action. there are a lot -- >> yes, it is. >> this is not just words. >> there's a connection, and they released the money. look, look at that in its entirety. i'm saying you got to rolook at the whole picture, and if you don't, you're going to make the mistake, the republicans are going to say, okay, mitch mcconnell, senate majority leader is going to say as he said okay, if trump's impeached, we will deal with it, and if you don't have a body of actions

that really speak to the conscience of republicans, it's going to be over in a matter of days or even less. >> you know, one thing republicans really have to consider here on the hill is what do they want to do with the remainder of this presidency? i hear a lot of negative terms. we want this president to stop things, that's the dearegulator agenda, that's these judges. all i hear about legislation is they want to pass this new trade deal. that's essentially it. made some nebulous language about infrastructure. that's really it. is that all you want to do with the remainder of this presidency? u this is what it's going to be tr now until the next term, if there is a next term. what is the republican agenda on the hill? right now it is running block for donald trump and whatever his whim is of the day, and that's not a governing agenda. >> yeah, that's not a governing agenda, and they are frozen in place by the president's -- by

the president's actions, his chaotic actions every day. they're responding to that. m mika, you know, i will say bob brings up a great point. we now are looking, somebody had said, i think it was -- i read that we are just looking through a small key hole right now, and the question is how do democrats, do they have the ability, do they have the skill? because some of their hearings have suggested they do not. do they have the authority and skill to widen that key hole so they see more. right now we are looking just at this one phone call with ukraine. can you imagine as bob suggests what happens when -- and i would suggest this is done only at the intel committee without cameras rolling, what happens when they look at donald trump's phone calls with saudi arabia? what happens when they look at

donald trump's phone calls with russia? what happens when they look at donald trump's calls with the philippines, with turkey, with china? if there are specific phone calls where donald trump acted with corrupt intent, then, yes, you widen that key hole, and it's not just one crazed phone call talking about conspiracy theories and joe biden's son. it suddenly becomes a pattern which leaves republicans, i think, with really little choice but to pursue the possibility of a conviction against a corruption and out of control president. >> and joe, you look the in key hole, and now you're seeing mike pompeo in the picture. >> right. >> that opens up a whole different set of questions. when you're looking at the people who work under and around pompeo, you're looking at people

who have devoted their lives and their careers to building alliances and doing this kind of work. it's not like donald trump's little ka ball in the white house, and this is going to get interesting. >> think about officials of the state department that voted their entire life to building relationships. >> they're not going to playing ball here. >> that promote democracy across the globe and to see there's a commander in chief that values authoritarian leaders over democrat allies in the west. think about the people in the justice department that have committed their lives, at the fbi that have committed their lives. >> the state department. >> to defend and protect the united states of america, and its citizens, and watching that the president of the united states is actually sending the attorney general of the united states across the world to try to dig up dirt from our allies on members of our intelligence

community. that is where we are in 2019. >> it is, joe, and i'd also say that, you know, in terms of whether congress, the democrats can broaden this out, you know, you make a great point that if they looked at all of these other transcripts, the saudis, the russians, the chinese, what would they find? they'd have to get access to those documents, and we know from our reporting and from others that this white house went to great lengths to try to restrict access to those sorts of documents, and so, you know, there's that sort of tension there, and then you have nancy pelosi who really wants to keep this narrow. the question, i think, going forward is whether in this one line of inquiry ukraine, if other threads through interviews with witnesses, through whatever documents they can get, if other threads kind of weave in, that she then moves to the point where she says, okay, now we -- like she did when the ukraine call came out, now we have to move forward because the evidence is taking us there, you

know, how this unfolds, and the other thing i would add, there are people around the president who are really nervous about the republicans in the senate. one of them told me that the president's biggest problem right now is he has no real friends in the senate and that the longer this goes on and you get past these filing deadlines for primaries that they could potentially start to turn, and that coupled with potential evidence that could be uncovered could be really devastating for the president. >> you know, mika, you want to note following up on carol lee, you want to know how bad it is for the president? i have more friends in the republican senate than donald trump. >> yeah. >> and let me say, that's really bad news. >> they're calling more and more. >> bob, woodward, carol lee, thank you both. >> bob and carol, thank you so much. and bob, great insights and much for democrats to think about. a rush to judgment obviously may get them impeachment, but won't get them much more. still ahead on "morning joe, "-- go ahead, bob, i'm sorry.

>> i just think that there are such serious national security issues on the table. in the work i did last year, you got two a point where the president -- president trump was so spun up about spending money, allies like nato and south korea that he just would not stop, and finally secretary of defense mattis had to tell the president -- now this is according to notes, top secret notes at national security council meeting told the president, well, we're doing all of these things, mr. president, to prevent world war iii. now, in my view, number one job for a president is to prevent world war iii. so you've got to look at all of these issues, and if you don't,

in terms of the republicans that are going to say, oh, yeah, this is politics and you raise a really good point. is the house of representatives, are there committees equipped to conduct the kind of full scale comprehensive investigation, and i think that's the question. >> all right, still ahead on "morning joe," how a tense relationship between the president's two highest profile lawyers is complicating his impeachment defense. "the wall street journal" explores the ties that bind, donald trump, rudy giuliani, and william barr. next on "morning joe." muse ♪ ♪ ♪ saturdays happen.

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joe," 7:39 on the east coast. joining us white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamiche alcindor, associate professor of political science at tufts university, jeffrey fair roe, and reporter for the wall street journal rebecca ballhouse, she's here with reporting on how the relationship between william barr and rudy giuliani is straining trump's impeachment defense. good morning to you all, rebecca let me start with your extraordinary piece about this dynamic between the attorney general and rudy giuliani, the president's private attorney. they go back a while. they were both attorneys during the first bush administration, bush years, but they don't have a great relationship now. in fact, according to your reporting, barr is mystified by rudy giuliani going out on tv in defense of the president every night. >> that's right, so what we learned over the course of reporting the story is that back in april barr called the president, and essentially wanted to know why rudy giuliani was in his view squandering the

days after the mueller report had come out, not out on tv declaring victory and declaring that the president had been exonerated as the president himself was doing, but instead attacking don mcgahn who was a key witness in the mueller report and the former white house counsel. he felt that it was time to simply move on, but what stood out to us about this phone call is it's one of the few instances of someone in the administration actually expressing concern about giuliani to the president. from what we've heard, there are a number of officials who of long been concerned or frustrated by rudy giuliani's behavior, but few have actually raised it with trump himself. >> so how does president trump view these two men in his broad defense? i mean, he now has the attorney general of the united states traveling overseas going to places like italy investigating the investigators, chases conspiracy theories. on the other hand he's got rudy giuliani running around the

world looking into these ukraine questions and then reporting in every night on fox news. how does president trump view these two men? >> well, what's striking about that is that the president really seems to view the two men in the same way, but they have very different roles. rudy giuliani's role is to defend the president and to represent his interests. the attorney general's job is to represent -- is to protect the institution of the presidency and to defend the administration as a whole, but not to be looking out specifically for trump's interests, and barr has drawn a lot of criticism, especially in the last few days amid all the revelations about the work he's been doing with foreign countries on this counter, on this investigation into the origins of the mueller investigation. he's drawn criticism for being too eager to protect trump's interests and for appearing too close to the president. >> the upcoming book you're working on on the history of impeachment, let's talk about impeachment. if it goes to the senate, if it

goes to the senate, which means obviously that he's impeached in the house, if it goes to the senate, does there indeed have to be a trial in the senate? >> well according to senate procedures, yes, there has to be. now, the rules that were put in place for the clinton impeachment hearings, or impeachment trial almost 20 years ago are still in place. so the chief justice would preside. the house would of course appoint impeachment managers to make the case to the senate. the real question for the democrats, can they sway enough republicans to get to that magic number of 67 to convict and to remove from office, and that's an open question at this point, having not seen all of the evidence. >> yamiche, what are you hearing from your white house sources about anxiety over impeachment and the tensions between rudy giuliani and bill barr?

>> well, the white house on its surface is really giving this ire or this feeling of confidence. they're saying all of this is really above board. democrats are really all trying to just take down a president that was duly elected, and they're still angry about the 2016 election. but then when you start to really press on kind of are you going to defend this call, the white house then starts to feel as though they're not quite sure how to defend that. they have all sorts of reactions to that, but not a clear defense that says this is not the president pressuring ukraine. you also have the president now tweeting things like this is going to start a civil war. last night he was tweeting that this might be a coup by the whistle-blower to try to take over the government. he's also accusing democrats of treason, so what you have is the president increasingly agitated and lashing out, and essentially trying to violate federal law. i think what we see is the white house trying to put on a brave face but also a president who's showing signs that he is angry.

when i put that question to the white house, they say he's acting like someone who's been falsely accused ask that's why he's so angry and tweeting out and lashing out. in terms of rudy giuliani, as representative kennedy said he's somewhat of a free range chicken. i was texting rudy giuliani last night, and i said are you going to comply with the subpoena, and he said i'm studying them and this is really all about defending the president. >> rebecca, we now know that attorney general barr is involved personally in high level efforts to compel other kbofts to assist us in the investigation into the origins of the probe into the trump campaign in 2016, which resulted in the mueller report. that seems to me like a valid use of justice department resources but at the same time the attorney general's personal involvement in them and donald trump's effort to discuss, for example, baseless conspiracy theories with the ukrainian government involving the whereabouts of hillary clinton's server suggests that it's not just about good governance and

the rule of law, but also the president's will. what extent do we know is attorney general william barr doing whatever the president wants and not necessarily what the justice department thinks is the right course? >> well, i would say we don't have any sign of others within the justice department believing that barr is acting inappropriately. i would say that bar has drawn a lot of criticism for his handling of this whistle-blower complaint. what we learned last week from the justice department and from the white house is that when the whistle-blower complaint was turned over to the justice department, the justice department recommended that it didn't need to be turned over to congress immediately, and instead advised that it be turned over for an investigation into whether the call merited possible campaign finance violations by the president. what we know is barr was not deeply involved in that review, in which they ultimately decided it did not constitute campaign finance violations, but he also

didn't officially recuse himself from it or consult with ethics officials at the justice department about whether he needed to do so. obviously recusing yourself as an attorney general is a deeply fraught issue in the trump administration. we saw trump spend years attacking jeff sessions for doing just that. but i think the fact that barr did not remove himself from this despite the fact that he is invoked in this call that trump had with zelensky mentioned in the whistle-blower complaint has drawn a lot of concerns. >> the conventional wisdom for the last several months or longer has been that impeachment was a bad idea for democrats because it's a dead end in the senate, a republican controlled senate never will convict this president given how they fawn at his feet over every other subject, do you think that could change that dynamic as this investigation goes on? >> well, i think the information that's coming out of this administration every few days

changes the political calculations on both sides of capital hol hill. you know, you had the release of the telephone conversation on july 25th, between president trump and president zelensky. you had the release of the whistle-blower complaints. you have the allegations about the attorney general meeting with officials from foreign intelligence services, so as more and more information comes out and becomes public, i think it does change the political calculations on both sides of the hill. >> yeah, the facts will drive this ultimately. thank you very much. we'll be reading your reporting in the wall street journal, jeffrey's book out in paperback is defending frenemies, alliances, politics, and nuclear nonproliferati nonproliferation in u.s. foreign poli policy. coming up, new polling shows joe biden with a big double-digit lead in an

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it's one less thing for us to worry about. comcast business. beyond fast. two more deaths were reported yesterday at the center of the vaping crisis, raising the death toll now to 16. as of last week, 805 cases were reported of the vaping-related illness for which we still don't know the cause. just yesterday los angeles county board of supervisors unanimously passed a ban on flavored tobacco products and called on governor gavin newsom to pass a state-wide ban on vaping. and today, michigan vaping shops are going to be required to destroy all flavored e-cigarette products as a new law banning those products goes into effect. let's bring in now "morning joe" medical contributor, dr. dave

campbell. dr. dave, get us up to date on the latest on the vaping crisis. >> well, joe, there's two things happening in corollary. first, at the end of last week we found that thc prepackaged, prefilled cartridges are increasingly associated with these vaping-related illnesses. that came out last week and is very important because we're starting to narrow down the focus on trying to find the chemical substance causing these lung illnesses. it's not been found yet but we're getting warmer. secondly, with the nicotine flavored products, that's an issue of children and young adults becoming addicted to nicotine. so two things happening at the same time. talk about the products, it's often not the products that we hear about or we see commercials for, advertisements for, but it's off-brand products. talk about that and why that

poses such a danger. >> the danger is that the products that are being illicitly supplied and used, whether online, from friends, they're not coming from medical marijuana dispensaries. they're purchased often with packages that you can buy online, put together and then sold only t the black market. with thc being found in the majority of those products and with the thc coming from other than marijuana dispensaries, the users really doesn't know what's in there, nor does the cdc. >> noah. >> yeah, that's a really great summary of what the situation actually is and it is extremely rare that i actually hear what the problem is with regard to this actual vaping illnesses, illicit cartridges used as a vaporizer, they use vitamin acetate that facilitates this

vaporization. that's what's getting people sick, as opposed to the new england journal of medicine reported that 84% of users use these products. there's a sense that young adults are picking up these things and getting addicted to nicotine and that's contributing to a rise in smoking. the cdc has not found a dramatic rise in teen smoking. it has found a statisticsly insignificant 0.5 increase and a response to that is to say, well, we should condition uyoun people to associate that addiction to tobacco products. that seems like a silly way to address the problem of teen smoking. >> the problem with teen smoking is that teens that smoke smoke as adults. one out of two people who smoke

their lifetime will die from that addiction to nicotine. two things have to happen at the same time. we have to address this outbreak of vaping-related lung illness which has killed 16 people as of yesterday across the country, but we also have to address the addiction of young people to nicotine products that will then lead to, according to some studies, a lifetime of nicotine use. >> but dr. dave, so you can understand why some people might look at the hypocrisy of this. i have four kids, i don't want any of them to vape. but we're all -- everybody's up in arms now about vaping and 16 deaths, right? >> yes. >> we talked about the opioid epidemic, the tragedy but you have told me on this show and off line about how many more people die of smoking-related illnesses than even of this

opioid epidemic. so, how many people die every year of smoking cigarettes? we know 16 have died because of vaping, and teenagers have been smoking cigarettes for as long as adults have been smoking cigarettes. i guess what i'm asking is, is there a double standard here? if you're really going to ban vaping products, why aren't you banning cigarettes? not that i'm suggesting that but just throwing the question out there. >> we can't solve everything at once. what we can do is prevent teenagers from becoming addicted to nicotine products and we can prevent, if we can find the cause of vaping-related young illness, from people dying in the fall and winter of 2019. >> how many people die every year of tobacco-related illnesses? >> almost half a million. >> and how many are going to die this year because of opioids? >> that should be about 70,000.

>> so 70,000 versus half a million. that's just a good -- those are two good numbers to keep in perspective as we talk about the opioid epidemic and how it's ravaging our country but how one of the greatest drains on our medical community and even on our federal budget continues to be deaths or illnesses from tobacco-related products. my sermon is over. dr. david campbell, thank you as always for being here. look forward to getting you back to talk about project hope and what's happening in the bahamass sglchlt . still ahead, joaquin castro. best, author and best seller michael moore. he's concerned that democrats just don't get it. i'm going to ask him if he still has that fear going into 2020. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. 2020. you're watching "morning joe."

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compliment? you know, if al capone had had somebody like you, sean, i mean come on, are you kidding me? if mussolini -- you know where we're going here. >> yeah. >> this is also -- geraldo was the same guy -- didn't he say he wanted to punch people in the face? >> donald trump doesn't have roy cohn but as geraldo notes, richaric richard nixon didn't have a sean hannity. good morning, it is wednesday, october 2nd. >> if richard nixon had only had you. >> we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle, former aid to the george w. bush white house and state department's elise jordan, president of foreign relations and author of the book "world in disarray" richard haas. historian, author of "the soul of america" and professor at

vanderbilt university, jon meacham. >> what was the thing geraldo said, willie, he wanted to punch the whistle-blower or something? >> he called the whistle-blower a rotten snitch is what he said on fox news, yeah. >> and i think he wanted to hit somebody, i forget who. we'll be getting to how some republicans who understand that at some point a democrat will be president of the united states again and this whole whistle-blower idea is actually a good idea and we probably should not have presidents threatening treason and the killing of whistle-blowers. anyway, we'll get to that in a little bit but before we get into all the bizarre news -- >> there's a lot. >> some very sad people who decided that they want to go out of their way to defend an extraordinary corrupt president,

let's talk baseball. the brewers, willie, had an extraordinary run at the end of the year without the best player, i think, in the national league. they went up 3-0 last night and i was sure it was over for washington who has had one sad postseason after another, but wow, what an incredible comeback last night. >> you know, joe, if only the milwaukee brewers had you, it would have been a totally different situation last night. that's juan soto, a base hit to right field. the nats were down 3-1, bases loaded, two outs in the eighth inning. three runs crossed the plate, 4-3. they told on to win in the ninth inning. i know you, mike barnacle, are feeling for the long suffering washington nationals fans but a cool scene. the beer flying everywhere in washington last night. tough moment for that kid in right field right there but the

nats move on. >> that's the thing about baseball, the isolated positions. you're in it, you make the error, everybody sees it. it's not like you miss a tackle or throw an errant pass in the nfl. as joe alluded to, the brewers, god love them. they played most of september without yelich, one of the best players in the national league. they had a great run and it ended last night like that, terrible. >> we're showing actually that one play but actually, willie, the pitching after scherzer got out of some trouble in the beginning, the pitching between scherzer and strasburg, three shutout innings, he was lights out. that's a team that did everything they needed to do to have the honor of going up against some buzz saw that is the los angeles dodgers. >> good luck. >> hell of a reward. get on a plane, fly across the country and play the dodgers. but yeah, if they can pitch like that once they got through

scherzer who was a little rocky out of the gate, who knows. the nats haven't been able to get past this round of the playoffs but they got a tough challenge in front of them and we got another good one tonight, tampa bay and the as for the right to go to houston and play the astros. so we're getting into it now. >> tell you what, richard haas says that the playoffs really don't begin until friday when of course your minnesota twins play the yankees. the twins really are, i think richard you'll agree with me, they are america's team and i think we all could do well to get through these troubled times if we can unite on just one thing and that is the glory of this twins team and how they need to beat the yankees. the president is ratcheting up his anti-impeachment rhetoric. first it was treason. then he repeated a claim that it would cause a civil war-like fracture.

now he's going here. what's taking place is not an impeachment. it's a coup. the notion that democrats are trying to violently overthrow the president is nothing new in far right media circles but it has since been used by president's aides and congressional allies to describe the impeachment push. >> make no mistake about this, this is nothing less an attempted coup day ta and end run around the ballot box. >> this is an attempted coup by the intelligence community. >> it's worth noting that a coup refers to the illegal and at times violent overthrow of a leader. impeachment is the legal process for removing the president as laid out in our constitution. >> so, willie, this is so tiresome.

it's also extraordinarily reckless coming from a president. we have to at least give bill clinton that. it's something he did not -- he never talked about a coup being carried out against him but a lot of democrats did. i said yesterday all that's old is new again. it was maddening when democrats were running around during the clinton impeachment talking about how it was a coup, a republican coup, a partisan coup. jerry nadler said it, maxine waters said it. john conyers, head of the judiciary committee or the ranking member of the judiciary committee said it. as i said then as a member of congress and i say now, no, it's actually not a coup. it is a constitutional process. our founders -- and you can go back and look at the federalist papers. our founders looked very closely at what was required for removing a president, and it's a very difficult, hard -- it's a very difficult thing to do. all of those republicans who are saying that it is a coup, i

don't think any of them actually believe that even if the house impeaches a president that the senate is going to remove them. so again, more bluster, more lying, more misrepresenting, more twisting of the truth to protect that one man, a man whose poor mind actually has scurrying around inside of it dreams of moats filled with snakes and alligators and flesh-piercing spikes on the top of imaginary walls, this man who has no respect for constitutional norms, who orders businesses out of other countries, who orders our nato allies to give him greenland, who calls the federal reserve chairman the enemy of the united states for trying to stop our

saying critical things about tariffs. this is who all of these people are putting their reputations on the line for to defend. >> a lot of people waking up will think you made up some of those details about the alligators and the snakes. nope, those are quotes from the president of the united states and we'll get to that in just a minute. as with donald trump we're not surprised but we ought to continue to be outraged when he says things like civil war, when he talks about a coup, when he accuses his political opponents of treason. jon meacham, we have right now a government in the state department with mike pompeo and justice with william barr running around, literally running around the world in barr's case going to italy and taking meetings to put up these walls around the president and to protect him, to chase his conspiracy theories. the government is now operating on the whims, the personal whims, the political whims of the president of the united states. it's no way to run a country. >> it's not and you're right, we basically had a constitutionalization of

narcissism that is essentially what's happened here. on the history point, what's important, i think, to push back against the coup stuff, there was a clear debate in philadelphia and at the ratification conventions in the 1780s about could you impeach a president for what was called mall administration, just screwing things up, and they decided no, that was for the voters. it was very specifically designed for treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors. there was an absolute sense that this was very serious. it should only be undertaken in the event of the betrayal of the country, putting yourself up for sale and trying to use the government, as you say, as a personal instrument of power as opposed to having it in trust for the people. maybe this sounds too much like a civics lesson for this hour

but this is actually really important. the entire insight here, the entire experiment that so many people on the right and in trump world want is they believe in america but it's the america in their heads. it's not necessarily the america that really existed and should exist. that america is one where the rule of law is more important than the whim of any president. as far as building moats and putting alligators and all of that, why is it we are building walls and moats at the border but we can't put up a wall around our own sovereign elections? i think that's a question that should be asked. >> still ahead on "morning joe," president trump congratulates china even as most other american officials condemn it. a similar thing played out with saudi arabia with the president backing the kingdom even as the cia linked the crown prince to the murder of a journalist.

we'll discuss that ahead. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill? >> good morning to you, mika. an endless summer is an understatement. yesterday we had 63 locations tie or break record highs. we had over two dozen sites set their all-time warmest october temperatures. this is beyond ridiculous at this point. and today is going to be even hotter. today should be the peak of our october heat wave. 8 0 records are possible throughout much of the southeast, the ohio valley and even locations in the northeast. it's not supposed to be this warm. even new york city this time of year should be around 88 degrees. richmond should be 98. yesterday was 101 in montgomery and we're going to do it again today. we are cooling things off, chances of flooding in central michigan today and these showers will cool off the northeast later on today. so you get the picture here. we are hot from texas all the way through the southeast and yesterday the hottest spot in the country was alabama, numerous areas in the 100s and we should do it again today.

for our friends in the south, you'll cool off the beginning of next week. for the northeast, areas like new york city, if you like the warmth, enjoy it today. tomorrow about 30 degrees colder. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. of doing great work. where an american icon uses the latest hr tools to stay true to the family recipe. where a music studio spends less time on hr and payroll, and more time crafting that perfect sound. where the nation's biggest party store can staff up quickly as soon as it's time for fun. this is the world of adp. hr, talent, time, benefits and payroll. designed for people. pain happens. saturdays happen. aleve it. aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong.

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did you order the murder of jamalkhashoggi? >> absolutely not. this was a heinous crime, but i take full responsibility as a leader of saudi arabia, especially since it was committed by individuals working for the saudi government. today the investigations are being carried out, and once charges are proven against someone, regardless of their rank, it will be taken to court, no exception made. if there is any such information that charges me, i hope it is brought forward publicly. >> that's the crowns prince of saudi arabia on "60 minutes" three days ago. exactly one year ago today

"washington post" columnist and legal u.s. resident jamal ka sewi showingy walked into the cons late thinking he was getting documents for his marriage and he was murdered. fred hyatt, and editor for "the washington post," david ignatius commemorate the memory of their colleagues murder. "the washington post" is out with a collection of op-eds and special coverage. gentlemen, thanks for being with us. i want to get your reflexes on jamal but first your reaction to that interview on "60 minutes" where the crown prince said, i did not order the murder of your colleague but i take responsibility as the head of the government here. what's your reaction? >> good morning. my reaction is he's actually doing exactly the opposite of taking responsibility.

everybody who's looked at the seriously including the u.n. and the u.s. intelligence agencies have concluded that a crime of this magnitude committed by people so close to the crown prince could not have taken place without the knowledge and support of the very top of the government. and if he were really taking responsibility, he would be allowing these investigations to take place with transparency. he would be telling us, among other things, where jamal's body is which we've never learned. he's really do the opposite. the coverup has continued. >> david, of course the cia concluded that it was, in fact, the crown prince who ordered this murder of jamal khashoggi. the president has continued to do regular business with mbs,

but more broadly this morning on this solemn anniversary what are your thoughts about jamal khashoggi, david? >> willie, the saudis from the very top, we do believe, the crown prince tried to silence a critic who was angering them. they had been angry at jamal khashoggi for more than a year, talked about various ways to silence him. finally it came down to silencing him by killing him. we think he was choked and then his body was dismembered brutally. a year later we're still talking about it. if they thought they were going to silence this voice, silence this criticism of the kingdom of repressive policies, the opposite has happened. i think that's one of the powerful things about the special section that fred has pulled together. you hear voices from all over the middle east expressing the same ideas about a more open society that our colleague, jamal, expressed in his column.

if they wanted to silence him, it didn't happen. >> david, clearly the saudis were hoping that this general statement about accepting responsibility would somehow allow them to turn the corner, as you made clear it will not. what now though a year later, turning to policy, should the united states do? mbs is going to quite likely be the effective leader of saudi arabia for years, possibly decades. it's an important country and obviously a critical part of the world. you don't need me to explain that to you. what does the united states do when he is essentially the person, like it or not, who's in a position of power? >> just to start, i think saudi arabia and mbs, the crown prince, need to take steps to assure the united states that whatever happened -- and we do want to know the truth -- it will never happen again, that there are systems in place that really make for a more reliable, less erratic decision-making.

one way to do that obviously would be to have a genuinely transparent process. at this point the person who we think, our intelligence agencies think was most directly responsible for this plot, an a aid, has not even been brought into this investigation. more generally, we should say to the saudis, if you want american military aid, if you want us to back you up and defend you against iran, you need to understand our basic standards. you need to come clean about this. it just needs to be a different relationship from the one we've had. >> fred, jon meacham here. you're in the business of connecting dots, and without being hyperbolic and i don't mean the question to be hyperbolic, could you talk about the climate about dissent and a

free press in the united states and what the murder of your colleague suggests about the ultimate stakes of that kind of crackdown on a climate of dissent, not just in saudi arabia but around the world. >> i mean, i think if you step back, you think this was an extraordinary crime, an american resident, a columnist for an american newspaper lured into a diplomatic compound in a different country from his own and deliberately murdered there, if we had a normal american government and secretary of state committed to american values, they would be saying we need a full accounting of what happened. we need accountability for what happened before we can move on in any way. otherwise, the implications are really chilling. no journalist anywhere in the world is going to be safe even

in diplomatic compounds which traditionally are supposed to be the place of shelter and in any country. then above that you have the kind of language we're hearing about fake news and that there is no truth, the press is the enemy of the people, and that kind of language coming from our own president reverberates and is welcomed by autocrats like mbs around the world, reporters become endangered everywhere and truth and the journalism we all depend on to find out what's happening in the world also becomes endangered. >> thank you so much for being here, remembering your colleague. coming up on "morning joe," a claimed filmmaker, michael moore, is standing by. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe." ion next on "morning joe. my insurance rates are probably gonna double.

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♪ joining us now, vice chairman of the house foreign affairs committee, member of the select committee on

intelligence, congressman joaquin castro of texas. he is also chairman of his brother julian's presidential campaign. it's great to have you back on the show. >> good to be with you. >> i want to ask you about the effort to get rudy giuliani to testify before lawmakers if we can potentially hypothesize that he will refuse to speak at a hearing, how then do you get information how of rudy giuliani? >> you're right and it looks like we're probably going to have to go to court to get him to testify. but remember, at some point during all of this -- i know he's done many interviews where he's talked about his activities for the president and visiting with the ukrainians, at one point he mentioned that he wasn't going there as the president's lawyer. if that's the case, he loses any kind of attorney/client privilege. so we need to figure out exactly what role he was in. there should be no executive privilege, for example, because

he's not a government employee, he's not working at the white house. so i'm confident that ultimately the committee will hear from rudy giuliani. >> what answers do you want from rudy giuliani, from the secretary of state, from others regarding ukraine? what do you think the big question is and what do you think the most important, the most jermaine answer to this inquiry is for you to get? >> i think the most important thing is what did the president ask you to do because it looks, very clearly from that phone call, like he was betraying his oath of office, abusing power and sending these guys over there for political purposes to discredit a political rival and ensure his re-election potentially in 2020. so we need to know from them what the president asked them to do, what they did, what they told the ukrainians and also what they heard back, what was the response, the interaction. you see what the president did.

he basically put together a political operation out of the white house. he's running his re-election campaign at the taxpayer expense out of the white house. he's sending all the top guys, his attorney general, he's involving his secretary of state. he's got his personal lawyer in rudy giuliani. we don't know if there are other people involved. i hope not. i know my former governor has been mentioned, rick perry, the energy secretary. i certainly hope that he wasn't part of it, but he's been mentioned as somebody who led the delegation. so he's sending a bunch of his top people to do his political bidding. he's running his re-election campaign out of the white house. >> congressman, it's willie geist. the state department's office of inspector general put up a red flag yesterday saying it had something of, quote, urgent request, it has an urgent request to bring before your committee on intel. do you have any sense of what that is? >> i don't. i'm coming back to washington on thursday evening for committee

work on friday. as you all know, this story over the past two weeks as just exploded and literally every day there's two or three new developments that we're dealing with, but i'm anxious to see what the inspector general has to say. >> they say they want to get that to you as soon as possible. meanwhile, the secretary of state, mike pompeo, is stonewalling. he said he's not going to present some of the information and some of the figures that you all would like to talk to, he says, in order to protect the career diplomats inside the state department. what's your reaction to his posture toward your committee and others in the house? >> well, it's ironic that he's talking about protecting these career diplomats because at the same time they're still trying to review people's emails from eight or nine years ago or whatever it was, so i think it's a stalling tactic. secretary pompeo obviously doesn't want to come in front of the house committees, but again, i think we'll be able to go to court if we need to and get him to testify in front of us. i'm confident of that. >> congressman, do you worry that this turns into just a

protracted legal battle when these officials, they should be answering the call from congress to come and testify instead of stonewalling. do you think that -- i mean, what kind of talk is there about enforcing contempt against trump officials who are refusing to testify? >> you ask a great question because this administration probably more than -- perhaps more than any other in modern american history, has been the least cooperative with congress. you look at what corey lewandowski did a few weeks ago in front of the judiciary committee or even the former director of i.c.e. did to the congresswoman from washington, that's been combative, incooperative. so yes, it is a concern that they could try to drag this thing out longer than necessary and i also think that this

impeachment inquiry should be done, as the speaker noted, as expeditiously as possible. it's not in anyone's interest, most of all the american people april interest, for the congressmen to be doing through an impeachment inquiry in november of 2020. i hope the courts will hear these things in -- these cases in an expedited manner. >> congressman, on that very point, expeditiously carrying this process out, everything you've mentioned with regard to the attorney general, the secretary of state and others internally in the state department, wherever, it's evidence gathering, but do you worry, do you have any concern, any level of concern that it takes the focus off of the singular topic of the president's behavior in office? >> well, i think all of the work that -- or the activities that you see from mike pompeo, from the attorney general, from rudy giuliani, those all tie back to

president trump and his activities. in terms of his substantive work and basically the condition of the country, yeah, of course, i think every american should be concerned about that but it's important to note that the president himself has put himself in this position. he's the one that is asking people to go do his political bidding to undermine political rivals out of the white house. nobody else is to blame but donald trump for that. >> congressman, first let me say i sincerely appreciate the beard. thank you very much, it helps. the whistle-blower complaint alleges that there's a separate trove of documents that may have political implications, donald trump speaking with a variety of foreign leaders. do you envision efforts to subpoena records related to those calls? >> ultimately that's a decision of the chairman, adam schiff, and of course the speaker, but as a committee member i can tell you that i'd like to see what was on that server or in that other electronic file. yeah, i want to see what

transcripts they were trying to hide away in that other server. i think if we get a chance to read them, we'll probably get a chance of why. remember, the president has met with vladimir putin, the president of russia, a few times with nobody else around, and one time there was somebody that was transcribing or interpreting -- i'm sorry -- and i believe that the notes were destroyed from that. so yes, we absolutely would like to see those conversations with the leaders of saudi arabia, russia and other nations that may be in there. >> mika, it's important to remember that those conversations, according to the whistle-blower complaint and others that had knowledge of them, were not moved to another server because there was classified information there. they were moved to another server because they would be politically embarrassing for the president of the united states and perhaps might show even more wrongdoing. >> evidence of corruption. congressman joaquin castro,

thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, new poll numbers are sizing up the democrats' race for president. "snl" offered its own take over the weekend. also, michael moore joins the discussion next on "morning joe." morning joe. ♪ things you can do with schwab: you can earn more when you invest your cash. ♪ you can get a satisfaction guarantee.

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(pilot) we're going to be on the tarmac for another 45 minutes or so. the democratic candidates have united together and decided to handle the impeachment the only way they know how, with a muddled, ten-person town hall debate. first, please welcome a guy who tragically misread our enthusiasm for him, beto o'rourke. >> thanks for still having me around. this is rad. now, can i say a few words in eighth grade spanish? >> we really don't have time for that. >> oh. [ speaking foreign language ] >> and appearing tonight live via astro projection is marianne williamson. and now, let's meet the actual

candidates, senator elizabeth warren. >> i have the energy of a mother of five boys who all play a different sport. let's do this. >> senator from vermont, bernie sanders. >> hello, everyone. i'm so excited to be back and to ruin things a second time. >> we also have the current front-runner in the polls. he went to the dentist and said give me the high beams, vice president joe biden. >> as i ask any time i walk into a room, where am i and what the hell is going on here? >> we'd also like to welcome california senator kamala harris. >> i'm a smooth talking lady lawyer. i'm rizzoli and isles. i'm a walking, talking tnt show. kamala, sundays on tnt. >> wow. >> that is a classic script. >> so good. >> and willie, the all-star lineup. i mean, we had woody harrelson

and we had the legendary maya rudolph and then of course larry david. it was an amazing script. >> the marianne williamson was particularly strong but i think maya rudolph is going to be a star of this fall as long as kamala harris is in the race. all right, former vice president joe biden has a 20-point lead in south carolina according to a new early state poll. biden sits at 37% in the latest win tlop university poll. he's ahead of massachusetts senator elizabeth warren at 17% and vermont senator bernie sanders who rounds out the top three at 8%. however, over half of south carolina democratic voters said they may change their minds for the upcoming february primary. joining us now, filmmaker michael moore, and professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson is with us. >> it's great to have you guys with you. michael, let me just say

starting this segment that the father of one of my son's friends, i was wearing a detroit tigers t-shirt last week and i said, god, i love and respect people who are not sunshine patriots, so walk on, walk on, michael moore with your tigers. >> it's truly the underdog team this year, that's for certain. by the way, i was just asking these guys, do you just keep going talking about baseball just to upset mika? is this the -- >> yes. >> it is, isn't it? >> it works too. >> yes. >> just continue -- just pick up your device or read the paper whenever they go to sports? >> i clean my purse, michael. >> she goes through the purse and she -- she has the most organized purse in the fall because that's when we really start talking about it. >> it's unbelievable. >> so michael, the question is whether democrats in 2020, like

2016, will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. what do you think? >> it's always possible. every democrat or anybody who's thinking of voting for a democrat which i hope is everybody must think every day from today until november 3rd of next year that it is possible for trump to pull it off. you have to think like that whether you -- you know, too many liberals i think want too ju just feel good and there's no time for that. we have to behave as if the worst could happen. it's just like what's going on now with impeachment. this all looks very cut and dry because it is, as rachel maddow last night on colbert explained it very simply to the american public. he did it, he admitted it, now he will be impeached. that's pretty much the way this should go. i see the camera guy who just

moved in here, if on the way out i took that camera from him, stole it from msnbc and you all saw me do it, it's pretty clear that i just lifted it. i can say -- i can try to spin it any way i want, but we saw what happened, they admitted it. they provided the details for how it happened. what more is there that we need to do other than to have this impeachment as soon as possible. when i hear -- they think we can do this by the end of the year. by the end of the year, by halloween, you know, what is the point of any investigation? if the democrats go to do mueller 2, that ain't going to play well and they're going to lose the momentum that they need. it's so rare for us to be this far ahead of ourselves that to let trump and his people figure this out and try to catch up,

these people are evil geniuses and they are not stupid, and i have ultimate respect for their ability to get away with anything. >> geniuses. >> evil geniuses. >> wow, you define geniuses differently than i do. >> here's how i define genius -- >> maybe it's early -- >> if i lose the election and somebody hands me the keys to the oval office. no liberal knows how to lose by 3 million votes and then be allowed into the white house. i respect that. >> you also have a guy like dr. evil who wants to now put lasers on sharks in moats around a wall, so again, i'm baffled by it all. walter isaacson, we have michael moore saying, hey, let's move forward quickly. there are a lot of democrats who feel that way, feeling burned by the mueller investigation and donald trump constantly

undercutting that investigation every step of the way. you have on the other side bob woodward this morning coming on our show saying, wait a second, you're just getting a very -- and bob woodward of course has talked to everybody in the administration and beyond, so i have a feeling he knows about some dirt out there that a lot of us don't know about. but bob woodward on the other hand is saying, wait, don't rush, you're just looking through a small keyhole with a very limited phone call. there's a lot out there that you don't know about that actually could lead not only to impeachment but removal from office. so how do democrats balance those two competing interests? >> i'm a little bit more on the side of let's just move ahead with it. we know what we know and it's pretty clear what happened. he's admitted it. this to me is part of a pattern of just deep corruption, of using the office of the presidency for his own political purposes and even for his own

financial purposes, you know, making people stay at his hotels and it's just that swampy corruption that he ran against. this is emblematic of it, using the state department, using his personal lawyers and all to try and have a foreign government interfere in an election. i don't know what else you need to know in order to say that's something we're going to impeach him on and that is already clear. i think once that happens you're going to have to have a trial in the senate. now of course the senate is controlled by republicans. i think as that trial goes on, the pace of it may take a very long time and if bob woodward or anybody else has more information to throw in, that's the time to do it is when he goes on trial in the senate. >> michael, how does -- let's say an impeachment in the house, failure to convict in the senate, how does that impact voters? you know very well in michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, you

after all were one of the few people who agreed with us before 2016 that donald trump could win. so i ask, how does that impact those voters first of all? and secondly, why is it that democrats are still disconnected with so many working class voters that you know in michigan and have grown up with? >> the first question, i think that people where i live in michigan are disgusted with what has happened and what they've learned in the last week or so. i have not heard it being discussed along partisan lines. in the midwest i think, in middle america, we operate with common sense and a sense of decency of we know what's right and we know what's wrong. here's what's wrong, it's wrong if you were to help another country attack this country. that's maybe the worst thing you

could do as an american, let alone as president. the next worst thing is to do something to interfere with our right to to vote and decide andt have it be interfered with, with lies, propaganda, any other shenanigans that might go on. and you can see right away that president trump is hell-bent on a repeat of '16, because they know that's the only way they can win, is to cheat, is to gimmick it, is to hedge it up a little bit, because they can't win on their own because the majority of americans -- i've said this to you on the show before -- the majority of americans take the liberal position on virtually every issue, whether it's minimum wage, gun control, climate change, paying women the same as men. americans are actually -- they will call themselves liberal, but they are liberal when it comes to the issues.

so, the working class of michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania, they're already -- they already came out, first of all, last november. we brought them out because we put ballot measures that brought them out. we didn't depend on politicians anymore to get out the vote. in michigan, we made it illegal -- we put it on the ballot -- make it illegal to gerrymander or voter suppress. that passed by 61%. that returned thousands of african-american and hispanic voters to the polls last november. and for young people, we got the legalizing marijuana ballot proposal, and that passed. and we almost doubled the youth vote from the last off-year election. that's how we get it. that's how democrats have to do it this time. they've got to get the base out. >> okay. >> it's -- i know you want to -- you know, thanksgiving's coming up, you're going to want to convince your conservative brother-in-law who's still for trump. eat your dinner. don't waste your time on this. it's too much energy. we need to expend our energy on what the true working class vote is, because the majority of

working class these days, it's not lunch bucket joe from macomb county. it's the -- the majority of working class are women, they're people of color, and they are young. they're the lowest wage-earners in this society. and those three groups make up almost 70% of next year's electorate -- women, people of color, young adults. >> wow. >> all attention should be focused on that and let's make sure there's a candidate on the ballot so when they wake up on election morning -- >> so, that leads me perfectly to my next question, which is your analysis of the state of the field. we just showed a poll in south carolina with biden up by 20 points, much closer in iowa. in new hampshire, elizabeth warren had a great summer, surging into the fall. you said yesterday, you were talking with ari melber. you said, "biden is the center, he's this year's hillary," expressing concerns that he's not appealing enough to the base. so, does that mean you believe elizabeth warren would be a better nominee this time around? >> than joe biden?

yes, and bernie. you failed to mention that bernie is virtually tied with biden in nevada, which is the third state in the primaries and caucuses. bernie is -- just about every poll shows him number one with hispanics, number one with 18 to 35. we should be still discussing bernie, because he raised in money from the last quarter -- the contributions are still coming in from him. the grassroots enthusiasm. >> right. >> young people. when they wake up on that election morning next year, i need them to feel like they felt, the young people felt in '08 with obama. you couldn't wait to get to the polls to vote for obama. nobody -- i'm sorry, and i like joe biden. he's a nice guy. but nobody's waking up that day thinking, i can't wait to vote for joe biden. they will think, i can't wait to get rid of donald trump, if we haven't already gotten rid of him. >> if donald trump on the ballot is not enough to energize the base, no matter who the nominee is -- >> it's a negative, though. >> you don't think they'll come vote against donald trump, even if they have to bite their

tongue a little for joe biden knwh. >> here's what i think. i don't -- i'm sorry i made that prediction that he was going to win and win by those three states, because now i get asked all the time. but i honestly believe, just traveling the country, and especially in michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania, whether it's biden, or whoever, i think that the popular vote -- hillary won by 3 million? the democrat next year is going to win by 4 to 5 million votes in the popular vote. that's how many people are going to come out because they are totally energized to stop trump. but that's not the smart strategy. we didn't get rid of the electoral college after gore, when we should have. we didn't get rid of it after hillary. and damn it, this is going to happen again, where the american people say, we want the democrat, and then the democrat isn't in the white house. so, there has to be a strategy as long as we have the electoral college that we win the electoral college. what do we do to bring out the people that stayed home in michigan and wisconsin and pennsylvania? that's where i think the real problem was in '16. now that people have really

analyzed what happened. >> walter, michael mentioned macomb county, wayne county, detroit, suburbs of detroit. tell us about your region of the country, where you are right now. you're in new orleans. in terms of who is on the ballot as a democrat a year from this november. does it matter as much as just the need for change that voters are going to feel compelled to want to make? >> yeah, i think it matters, but unfortunately, i'm not on the side of michael moore in this very case. we got a governor's race coming up in a couple of weeks. we have a very good democratic governor's race, raise the minimum wage, fought for social justice, but he's not part of what you would call the activist left, especially on things like right to life and abortion. and i think we have to be a big tent, and i want states like louisiana to be able to come. so, i'm in favor of energizing a base, sure, but i think we need to get the person who would be

the most competent, good president, and i do think that means a big-tent person, so i'm on the other side of this discussion. >> yeah, totally agree. so, our thanks to michael moore this morning for being on the show. >> thank you, michael. go, tigers! >> all right. >> and michael, listen, let's talk about, just for mika's sake -- >> no, really. >> let's talk about the tigers and what moves they need to make in the offseason. mika, you can start cleaning -- >> bring back verlander and scherzer, how about that? why did we let them go? >> what is that? >> i'm going to do, what i'm going to do is end the show. >> yes. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage -- >> she's cutting us off, michael! >> in three minutes. off, michael! >> in three minutes. ty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar?

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hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, october 2nd, and here's what's happening. we are following a nasty battle that has broken out between secretary of state mike pompeo and house democrats trying to get to the bottom of what exactly happened with ukraine. here's what the secretary said just a few hours ago while in italy. >> the response that i provided to them was one that acknowledged that we will, of course, do our constitutional duty to cooperate with this co-equal branch, but we are going to do so in a way that is consistent with the fundamental values of the american system, and we won't tolerate folks on capitol hill bullying, intimidating state department employees. that's u