my thanks to david jolly, director brennan, most of all to you for watching. that does it for our hour. "mpt daili" with chuck todd starts right now. welcome to wednesday. boy, it ends in a "y" but it is an extraordinary one. it's "meet the press daily." i'm in washington where we've got a lot of late breaking, rather mysterious developments tied to an urgent briefing of the state department watchdog gave to members about ukraine. jamie raskin, democrat from maryland, spoke to reporters after being behind closed doors. the inspector general briefed them on some kind of packet of conspiracy theories that was circulating mysteriously at the state department, seemingly connected to the former ukrainian ambassador which was

seemingly connected to the whistleblower complaint. some apparently involved trump properties. a lot of people are scratching their heads about all of this. we're going to speak with congressman raskin in fact for clarity. folks, this this one of a number of developments in washington. president trump clearly is under siege and lashing out in dramatic and alarming fashion amid a deluge of developments. today democrats moved to subpoena the white house if it doesn't hand over documents on ukraine. key white house officials are lining up for depositions and testimony. there's new reporting suggesting the whistleblower was worried his explosive claims might be swept under the rug by the administration. mr. trump's secretary of state has now admitted he was on the president's call with ukraine. there's a cascade of damaging and embarrassing leaks about the president's behavior in other aspects of his governing style. cabinet secretaries like his acting homeland security chief are publicly now airing grievances. folks, all of that is the backdrop for the president's performance today which was at

times unhinged, angry, profanity laced and for many alarming. he wants adam schiff investigated for treason, a point he has been making numerous times. at one point he seemed to make up out of thin air a scandal that schiff personally helped write the whistleblower complaint. and another, he concocted a story about how the ukraine called transcripting motor blow to his critics when its revelations ignited an impeachment inquiry. he refused to answer reporters' question about what he wanted ukraine's president to do about joe biden. i haven't even mentioned the profanity-laced tweets, the attacks on the whistleblower. the unfounded claims about spies aiding the whistleblower and so, so much more. the president is asking like someone cornered by the fallout from this impeachment inquiry which is just getting started. we've got a lot of news to try to break down. i'm going to start with our correspondents, my white house colleague kristen welker, nbc news's geoff bennett, covering the action on capitol hill.

kristen, let me start with you. far as the white house is concerned, it seemed to be the president and an airing of grievances every single chance he got if there was a camera around. >> reporter: that's right, chuck. and remember, our day started with a tweet storm. and that's just about how every day has started this week with president trump lashing out at the inquiry, at democrats on capitol hill, and basically you are seeing this intensifying standoff. to your point, i think what we witnessed during that press conference was a president who feels embattled and backed into a corner. and it was sort of encap congratulated in that moment when my colleague jeff mason asked him a simple question -- what is it that you wanted the president of ukraine to do -- >> let me pause that because i think it's so important -- let's not describe it. it's -- it's the question at the heart of this impeachment inquiry. and the president of the united states refused to answer it, but

let's let it play out for you to watch. >> what did you want done on biden? >> look, biden and his son are stone-cold crooked. and you know it. his son walks out with millions of dollars. the kid knows nothing. you know it, and so do we. go ahead, ask your question. >> the question, sir, what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son, hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> yeah. i was -- it was a followup of what i asked you, sir. >> listen, listen, you ready -- we have the president of finland. ask him a question. >> i have one for him. i wanted to follow up on the one that i asked you, what did you -- >> did you hear me? did you hear me? ask him a question. i've given you a long answer. ask this gentleman a question. don't be rude. >> reporter: sir, i don't want to be rude. i wanted you to have a chance to answer the question i asked you. >> i've answered everything. it's a whole hoax. you know who's playing into the hoax? people like you and the fake news media that we have in this

country. >> obviously the big alarming piece of news there, kristen, the president refuses to answer what he said and did on the call which was ask the president to do something about the bidens here, and then he refuses to answer the question. he clearly realizes if he answers the question, he's admitting to what he's being accused of. >> reporter: that's right because he has tried to cast this call as exculpatory and even white house officials acknowledge that it is not. and so there you see the president under pressure, not wanting to directly answer jeff mason's question. it was extraordinary, and it laid bare the fact that this is a president who seems to at least be signaling that he feels backed into a corner. and chuck, just to make one more point about this, look -- i know that some of his top officials have been trying to work out a broader communications strategy to deal with this. and there's sort of this internal debate right now.

is their strategy to say nothing to see here, this is essentially what we've been doing with since mueller, or do they need a broader, all-hands-on-deck approach? i've been talking to outside allies of the president who say they are missing the mark by not having that. they are concerned because essentially it's up to president trump. he's been lashing out on twitter, and now during this press conference, chuck. >> all right. that's the update from the white house. let's go to capitol hill today, geoff. i'm going to have jamie raskin on in a minute. this mysterious i.g. state department business appears to be weird, bizarre, and nobody's -- nobody knows what to make of it. let's talk about the developments in general today. we heard from pelosi and schiff. we have the news that the whistleblower went to the intel committee. what can you tell us about this? >> reporter: well, let's start with that, chuck. one of the reasons why president trump suggested falsely that house intelligence chairman adam schiff might have had a hand in writing the whistleblower complaint, as the president put

it, is because when he got the question the reporter who asked him that question mischaracterized the reporting by "the new york times." in large part because the story broke right as those reporters were going into the east room for the press conference i'd imagine. but the reporting makes clear that the whistleblower tried to elevate his or her complaint within the agency that he or she works for, "the new york times" names the agency, i'm not going to name the agency out of respect for the whistleblower's privacy. there was a concern that the agency wouldn't handle it correctly. so the whistleblower then approached the house intelligence community to find out how to elevate the complaint within the jurisdiction of the intel committee. both the reporting and adam schiff's spokesperson made clear that at no time did adam schiff have advanced notice about the substance of the complaint. he had no idea what it was about until the night before, though hearing what the acting director of national intelligence which schiff and his spokesperson point out was three weeks late given the deadline by which that

whistleblower complaint should have been conveyed to congress. this whole story, though, has given republicans a talking point, a fresh talking points to suggest that the whistleblower complaint was a political hack job. even though the act could director of intelligence said on the record definitively that the allegations are credible and in alignment with the phone call the white house put out detailing the interaction between president trump and his ukranian counterpart. >> in some ways it's a standards practice, attack the accuser. attack the accuser rather -- if the substance is not a comfortable debate, you go down this roads. it is -- this roads. it is a familiar political tactic. there's no doubt that adam schiff has invited some of this on himself with some decisions he's made. but on this one, this feels like something else there. geoff bennett, kristen welker, wild ride. keep riding it. we'll be back to check in.

thank you both. all right. lots to dig into here. joining me, kimberly atkins, senior correspondents for wbur, msnbc contributor, lonnie chen, former advisor to mitt romney and a research fellow t hoover institute. and howard fineman, an msnbc political analyst. longtime reporter and colleague and friend of mine. let me start with what we're seeing with the president and this in some ways it's sort of the president on steroids. >> it is. we've seen all of this before. so far, just be clear, up until now through the mueller report, through every other controversy, the president more or less has escaped from it. he has gotten out of it. he saw the mueller report, the result of that as a victory. this is something different, this is something different, but so far the strategy has worked for him is my point. he thinks he is able to talk out -- talk himself out of, outsmart everyone, obfuscate to the point of getting out of a predicament. the problem here, as we saw with him sort of being very careful

with the way that he answered that question, is that there are very clear consequences to him saying or doing something wrong here. every step that he takes, every statement that he makes that contradicts or admits something could end up as an article of impeachment. and so you are seeing him do this dance. but we are seeing all the other levels, levers that he can pull, being pulled again in the same way, as you said on, steroids. >> it's interesting, lonnie, that the one difference between this issue and the mueller investigation, the mueller investigation was about people around the president. this has been about him, and i think this is the question i have for you is can this -- can this work the same way -- so for instance, president of the united states is trying to rewrite what was on the phone call. listen to the answer he gives about the -- sort of the detailed noted transcript, which of course isn't a transcript, but the president now claims it is. wait until you hear how he's describing this now.

take a listen. >> they didn't know that i had a transcript done by very, very threatened people, word for word, comma for comma, done by people that do it for a living. we had an exact transcript, and when we produced that transcript, they died. the only ones that don't like my conversation are the ones that never read it. there are those that think i'm a very stable genius, okay. i watch my words very, very closely. >> the president might as well have said the milwaukee brewers won last night. i mean, that is what he is claiming, that's brewers won. the brewers did not win. the washington nationals won -- right on. but that is what -- he's like, first of all, it's not an exact transcript, which we know. but everything in it actually only made things more problematic for him. >> the president is speaking to his supporters. >> are they -- have they not read this? >> whether they've read it or not, the president is speaking

to his supporters. the president is trying to make a point about the entire process and about how the whole thing, you know -- his characterization of it as a hoax is really about characterizing it for people in a way if they support him to have ammunition, right. this is really what this is all about. the other difference from mueller to here, by the way, also -- >> a direct lie -- >> right -- >> you see what -- what you see in front of your face is not what it is. it's instead something else. >> but the other difference i would say with mueller it this is activity in government. a big difference, right. there is a much more of a paper trail to the president, to his point many people were listening in on the call because that's how these things work. >> yes. >> and that in some ways is more dangerous for the president. precisely because there's more of a paper trail. it's different from the campaign, it's different from what happened with the mueller investigation. and that's why i think he's going to have to tread much more carefully here. >> he's cornered animal, but he's a very effective, vicious one, if he needs to be.

>> well, you used the phrase "cornered," and right. the cornered animal is a dangerous animal. the only thing more dangerous than a dictatorial leader who's confident of his position is a would-be dictatorial leader who isn't. donald trump in that press conference today went as far as i've ever seen him go down the road toward "i am king" thinking. >> uh-huh. >> this is what you must see. don't pay attention to the evidence before your eyes, this is what you must see. >> ordering jeff mason to ask -- >> this is a question i will answer, this is a question i will not answer. anybody who disagrees with me is treasonous. i am the state. now that is the situation in terms of character of leadership, that the impeachment process is designed ultimately

the founder said to address. he's saying that the entire process is illegitimate. >> a coup. >> he's basically saying the constitution is illegitimate. >> yeah. >> he's -- listen, i've spent a lot of time over the years in totalitarian countries. in the old soviet union, if somebody became inconvenient as a witness, they disappeared either in reality or from the top of the london mausoleum. that's the thinking we're seeing here, chuck. and -- >> howard, i know you would say it's alarmist -- >> i'm not being alarmist. >> i don't think you are either. >> it's my duty as somebody who studied a lot of history and reported on it to say in a way we're not taking this seriously enough. that thing today will go down in the annals of the dangers to democracy. >> yet i think it is all due to he's flailing. >> absolutely. >> right. >> absolutely. and look, i think one way that it is like the mueller report, talking about how it's different, is even though the

mueller report was about the people around him, he personalized it. he sees it all as an attack on him. he sees everything, his role, his government, as he said, when i took over the united states of america, when he said that before, that was -- that was a freudian slip. >> he did think of it as a corporate takeover. >> he sees himself as the authoritative leader. that's why he's tweeting about it, you know, impeachment proceeding being a coup. he sees this all as himself, and that's why -- >> we didn't bring up the other thing he did today. he's promising litigation all over the place for the mueller report. guys, it's sot 4. this one came -- again, this is -- >> out of the blue -- >> we're showing it because i think it just -- it's more about where is his head space. take a listen. >> and just so you know, we've been investigating on a personal basis through rudy and others, lawyers, corruption in the 2016 election. we've been investigating corruption because i probably will, i was going to definitely,

but i probably will be bringing a lot of litigation against a lot of people having to do with the corrupt investigation, having to do with the 2016 election. >> for example -- >> i have every right to do that because the way they've treated me and other people -- they've destroyed people. they've destroyed their lives with a phony charge that never existed and that was collusion. never existed. >> lonnie, i don't know where the outrage is in the national security community, particularly on the republican side of the aisle. every time he does this, every time he does this, vladimir putin scores another ability to essentially keep -- keep his territorial influence. >> well, i would say, you know, a lot of the national security establishment is with the president now. those that aren't explicitly made the decision not to be, they got out. >> you're right. >> they -- here's way would say, i think there's a lot of people trying to influence the president from a policy perspective, and they're realizing this is a very challenging exercise in a lot of ways because the president's going to do, as we'll talk about later, what he wants to do.

whether it's on immigration, guns, any issue for that matter. to expect -- i keep hearing this refrain which is when will republicans dot, dot, dot. the republican party of today is not the same republican party that we saw -- >> okay, let me throw something out. what do we make of who kevin mcleanen did today? that was an interesting moment. i wonder if i connect it to meaning here's somebody who feels, hey, you know what, i got nothing to lose, and i -- i think i want to get off the trump train. >> he's a career guy. >> right. >> and that is a crucial distinction here. in any authoritarian regime, everything relies around political loyalty to the man at the top. you have in washington called a deep state, call it the government, full of career people, inspectors general, career people like mcleanen. >> or the ambassador to career foreign service -- >> many of the people who left the state department and elsewhere rather than deal with the gang mentality that leads to

the oval office. we're not supposed to work that way as a country. we're supposed to have elections, but when we have elections, there is a government that has a memory, that has rules, that has standards, that are not matters of pure political loyalty. everything with donald trump, all of which he learned from watching the "godfather" movies and growing up in queens, as his father's son, was -- >> and royko -- roy coyen. >> pure royalty. mcleanen who went a long way to satisfy donald trump said, you know, i feel bad about some of what i did. you know, that's not me. and there's still people all around washington. this is -- >> i wonder, i guess my point is this -- >> this is a race between donald trump's attempt to gain control of the entire bureaucracy and what's left of people like macleanen. >> i look at this way, does the president need to start worrying that there are people like mcleanen, they're done with him. going to be more of this.

more people willing to go to whistleblow whistleblowers? >> i don't see any sign of that so long as he thinks his base is with him. so long as he sees poll numbers that the vast majority of republicans think he's doing a good job, and so long as people on the hill back him up. >> there will be people who will execute on his agenda in the administration and otherwise. you're right, as long as his numbers remain as they do amongst republican voters, he's going to have back up on the hill and a lot of it. >> please don't use the word "execute" on his agenda lightly. >> kimberly, lonnie, howard, sting around. ahead, congressman jamie raskin joins me following the briefing with the state department inspector general. what the heck is this thing? and later, the putin punch line. the russian president is yucking it up over whether he'd interfere in the u.s. election again. .s. election again. welcome to fowler, indiana. one of the windiest places in america. and home to three bp wind farms. in the off-chance the wind ever stops blowing here... the lights can keep on shining.

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there is zero, zero, zero, zero evidence of any assertion being made, i'm not going to go into it now.

look, the issue is this president of the united states engaged in something apparently that is close to -- well, engaged in activity which is at minimum gives a lot of running room for the russians in ukraine and i think we should just focus on he's the issue. nobody has ever asserted that i did anything wrong except he and what's that fella's name, rudy hudy, giuliani. >> welcome back, that the joe biden speaking with my colleague, craig melvin, just moments ago at the gun forum there. we are waiting for congressman rafb raskin and when we hear from him we will bring that to you. back with me, kimberly, lonnie, and howard. howard, you heard biden's answer there. i'm going to put. a monmouth poll. the question -- i'll read you the specific wording of the

question. as you can see here. a plurality think biden probably did -- did something to put some pressure on ukrainian officials. here's how the question is asked -- president trump claims that joe biden put pressure on ukrainian officials to get them not to investigate his son's business dealings there. do you think biden probably did or probably did not do this? that is how the question is worded. it's a very -- this just goes -- there's not a single piece of evidence to support the president's claim there. if the claim is did joe biden's son work for ukrainian, was on the board of a ukrainian gas company, the answer to that is yes. about what joe biden did, there's -- it's debunked fact. the point is, this is already at 40%. you could claim that 43% is 43% maga. >> that is polling malpractice, that question. >> the question is not a good question. >> the question says donald trump -- president donald trump says -- >> that's right. for what it's worth -- >> the 43% are the 43% that support donald trump. >> no. it is -- look, it is a poorly

worded question that doesn't get at that. however, it does show you the power of the trump -- >> sure. look, there is donald trump -- >> poorly questioned. >> yes, absolutely. the point is, that you're making, is valid. the way donald trump operates, he drags -- he's willing to absorb damage for himself. i don't think he realized how much damage he was going to be absorbing here. he's willing to get down in and get dirty because he's going to poll the opponent down in with him. and he figures as has been the case his whole career that he will be the guy who climbs out of the mud pit in the end, and the other person will be stuck in it. that's what he's doing with the -- >> the classic, he doesn't mind getting dirty and biden does. >> exactly. the message is getting through. >> biden has got -- that answer there, he's relying on it sounds like -- sounds like my buddy glen kessler at the "washington post." god love him. he sits there and does great fact checks. he's like, the facts, the facts! you know, you're just like -- where we're going, the facts

don't matter here. >> the fact that he and his campaign don't have a more assertive, clear response to this after days and days and days -- >> other than begging the media -- >> is the problem. it's showing that trump's surrogates, folks like kevin mccarthy, are winning by focusing over and over again about joe biden, about joe biden, about joe biden, and there's this -- it's leaving this sort of a both sides-ism that's resonating for people who can't -- most people are not like you and me. they're not keeping track of every single thing and understanding where the sources are. they're hearing a lot of information. and in that sense, that's helping him. it's giving his surrogates and supporters something to hold on to. >> lonnie, he has the ability in whether they're knowingly letting him do it or unknowingly, he has the ability to create new truth, an alternative reality. >> here's the thing. what he's able to do effectively is to figure out what box he's going to put joe biden into that will compromise the essence of his candidacy in my mind, which is the he's a washington swamp creature like all the other washington swamp creatures. >> and more importantly, what's

his greatest asset as somebody who's been here forever? he's the one guy that we've seen in this town not get rich. actually personally -- there's the irony. the one guy who didn't somehow see his own personal worth quadruple like every other schmangy that's been in congress. every single one of them, their net worth. i'm telling you, folks, look at it. i don't care who it is, it's inheritance, amazing land deals, you know. biden never did that. you know, amy klobuchar and bernie sanders, the two others that like have always kept under a million bucks. they didn't trade on there -- doesn't mean he didn't have relatives that did it. he may have traded on it, that's not the point. this is a guy who's been around washington for a long time. >> it was a strength, you're right. >> that was the -- they were sort of saying what box are we going to put him in? are we going to put him in the too old, it the crazy -- they figured it out. >> we're going to put him in the washington swamp creature box. >> it has additional benefit for donald trump, he thinks, that he's acuesing joe biden of what everybody accuses him of doing

with his own sons. when donald trump says we all know that they're crooked, the son is crooked, everybody's thinking -- >> projection maybe? >> that's equivalent. >> they're all crooked. >> they're all crooked. your kids are crooked, joe biden's kid's crooked. which. >> which one do you want running the jailhouse? i go back to i think we're trying to figure out is -- can they keep this posture up, or do they have to change posture? >> the bidens? no, they should still not be in this posture. they should be out ahead and with a clear message that resonates, they haven't done that. they hung back and let donald trump -- let donald trump sort of set the narrative. the worst thing you can do as a candidate is have your opponent define you. donald trump is defining joe biden. >> all right. i'm going to pause that conversation there. thank you. let me jump in here. joining me is maryland democratic congressman jamie raskin. and jamie had us all messmmeriz busy an hour ago as you were the first guy out of the tank there

giving us the firsthand account of what the heck was this. so it's an i.g. report, we have the basics. i've shared with the audience the basics. it appears to be some sort of opposition research clip file attacking the former ambassador to ukraine. what else can you tell us about this? >> well, that's about it. i mean, it's of interest not because of the contents which are pretty standard issue, propaganda disinformation, the kind we've been seeing from mr. giuliani over the last couple of weeks. the really interesting issue, the real agatha christie story is where did it come from, who put it into the hands of secretary of state pompeo, and who else did they distribute it to? but as far as we can tell, after pompeo got it, he gave it to the counsel to the department of the state who gave it to the inspector general who then turned it over to the fbi. that was sometime in may. then after the i.g. learned of the whistleblower's complaint, he decided that congress needed

to see it and -- >> wait a minute. congressman, wait. let me slow you down there. i just want to -- you went through -- so the secretary of state, he received this packet acknowledge he received the packet, handed it to his general counsel who handed it to the inspector general? >> that is the way that i understand it. >> okay. that's interesting. >> it was difficult to follow the whole thing. you got to understand, this did not arrive in the mail. i don't know if you can see this, but this was the cover -- >> yes -- >> this was the cover of it. and it's addressed to secretary pompeo, attention ruth. it says the white house there. there's kind of fancy calligraphy for the addressee, but in the corner, it says the white house. it doesn't look like official white house stationery to me. >> looks phony. >> there's a series of subdividing folders which is based on trump hotel stationery.

there's trump hotel stationery dividing it up and then basically a reese of clippings -- series of clippings, some undated, unspecified memos that basically make ambassador jovonovic look bad that target hunter biden and say he's been making millions and millions of dollars. but nothing is really authenticated or verifiable. so it's kind of worthless. one of the reporters -- >> why did the i.g. give it to the fbi? is this an assumption that somebody was -- why give it to the -- what was the thought of why they needed to hand it to the fbi if it's, as you said, sort of standard issue propaganda? you hate to call it that, but in this town we're used to it. >> well, as i understand it from the i.g., most of it was way outside of his jurisdiction. it did not relate directly to department of state employees in its entirety. some parts of it did. but he basically felt like it should be turned over to someone, and i -- there are things in here that could be --

that could bear on an ongoing criminal investigation. they've got -- alternatively the creation of this document and the disinformation and the propaganda contained therein themselves might constitute a criminal act. it appears to me he just wanted to get rid of it. and then when he read about this, the whistleblower report, he wanted to get rid of it again and turn it over to congress to have us we'll do it. >> so what you're seeing is the i.g. didn't know what to do with it and was essentially washing their hands of this? >> he has said that it's possible that something still could come out of it. but look, i think that it was prepared as a propaganda hit piece against ambassador jovonovic. they received it apparently about a week or maybe ten days before she was recalled from her post. and it seemed to be targeting her and trying to link her to the bidens in some way. so i think it relates to conspiracy theories that have been pretty thoroughly discredited and debunked already. >> let me ask a broader question about your attempt to get

documents from the state department as a whole and from the white house, the two places that if you don't get these documents, you might not be able to have an investigation, you might be able to end up filing obstruction charges. but we won't know the facts. what is your -- you know, what is that line between deciding they're obstructing and we're never going to get what we need versus we've got to keep fighting to see if we can get what we need in order to find out exactly what the president was doing with ukraine? >> well, all of the obstruction worked against us up until the ukraine revelations took place because we literally could not get the information that we needed. and the administration basically was saying there was nothing that we could do about it. at this point, though, the obstruction works against them because we've made it very clear that this con sfuts obstruction of justice -- constitutes obstruction of justice. it will become an impeachment count, article of impeachment, in the event that we choose to go in that direction. in a certain sense, they're digging their own grave by hiding documents and by refusing

to turn over witnesses and so on. but we know that that is the pattern at this point. they think that they can pull a cloak over the entire executive branch of government. it's a pretty outrageous posture for the president of the united states to have. >> all right. congressman, i hear you on that, that you might want to believe it's an outrageous posture. it's one that was pretty effective during the mueller investigation. >> it was, indeed, because i think that we were in a different place with respect to impeachment. we did not have the kind of unity we have within the caucus right now. speaker pelosi is clearly the captain of the impeachment team here. donald trump is waking up and paying attention which is why he seems to be unraveling in public right before our very eyes. but they understand, look, we're giving them the chance to come and tell their side of the story. the public narrative is set at this point. the president of the united states went to the president of ukraine and engaged in a shakedown in order to extort

political dirt from him, holding up $391 million of military and economic aid zeetd for and cover -- we voted for and covered the whole thing up. th the public understands that. if the president has a perfect alibi they should come forward. everybody owes the congressional sovereign, they're honest and truthful testimony -- their honest and truthful testimony, and they cannot run away dr. that. they've got to tell us what's going on or the president has resign. what they should all stop doing is trying to distract america from what the real issue is here. >> let me ask the -- one philosophical question about the issue of impeachment and the political calendar. and just simply say there are some people, i think you've probably heard even privately from some, some republicans who sit there and say this needs to be investigated, kang needs to be doing -- congress needs to be doing all of this. but i'm not comfortable with impeachment because it's going

to be so divisive, and it isn't going to be effective. what deuo you say to that political argument? >> well, impeachment is the people's last line of constitutional self-defense against a sitting president who is trampling the rule of law -- >> there is going to be an election, though. we will have an election. there one isn't a term limit term at this point. >> i understand that. but we don't want to create a formula where a president can engage in lawless and corrupt behavior in office, then stonewall and obstruct congress until it get late enough and say, oh, let's just deal with it in the election. we have got to define, and we have to defend the character of the presidency and what is acceptable conduct for public officials. it is simply not acceptable and it is a complete break from everything that's gone before it to have the president of the united states use the military national security muscle of the united states to extort political dirt from an ally that the congress is trying to aid with military and economic

assistance to defend itself against an aggressor, in this case, russia. so the president's behavior, if it's true, is absolutely scandalous and totally impeachable. now, are they denying it, or are they just trying to cover up? and i -- our colleagues across the aisle have to decide whether or not they think this conduct, if true, is impeachable or not. but i don't think it's an acceptable posture to say we're going to bury the possibility of having an honest discussion of the facts and letting the facts come to light. >> all right. congressman jamie raskin, democrat from maryland, appreciate how you quickly were available for us today. thank you so much for coming on and sharing your views. >> my pleasure. ahead, what is president trump's solution to the border crisis? is it really a moat filled with alligators and snakes? you know we wish we were kidding on this one. you ever wish you weren't a motaur? sure. sometimes i wish i had legs like you. yeah, like a regular person.

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welcome back.

tonight i'm obsessed with president trump's new comprehensive plan for border security. think of the world's worst petting zoo. according to "the new york times" the president had often talked about fortifying a border wall with a water-filled trench stocked with snakes or alligators. i think you'd want an and. that's your president, america. suggesting we secure our southern border with a giant moat filled with reptiles. but honestly, why are we stopping there? >> i have one simple request, and that is to have sharks with freaking laser beams attached to their heads. >> you know, can't be serious. you know he does like to make jokes. >> by the way, you're going to get the votes, otherwise i'll say, tom, you're fired! the medal of honor. i say, can i give it to myself anyway? they said i don't think that's a good idea. i was going to joke generals say at least for ten or 14 years, but we would cause bedlam. if i could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody, and i wouldn't lose any voters, okay?

>> even though sometimes it's pretty hard to tell if he's really kidding. >> russia, if you're listening, i hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails -- fake news. >> you don't have a problem with russia. knock the crap out of them, would you? seriously. i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees. >> so worry not, america. snake and alligator-filled moat probably won't happen. same as his idea to make the wall electrified and to have spikes on top that could pierce human flesh. and to have soldiers shoot migrants in the legs -- don't kill them -- but slow them down. he's not serious, right? ♪ (dramatic orchestra) performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind.

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maybe you could free zoltar? thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ so these two reporters wrote this book, and they said "i want a moat with alligators, snakes, electrified fences, so people get electrocuted if they so much as touch the fence and spikes on top." never said it, never thought of it, and i actually put out something on social media today, i said i'm tough on the border, but i'm not that tough. okay. it was a lie. >> welcome back. that was president trump earlier today denying "the new york times" report that his ideas for securing the border included shooting migrants in the leg and building a moat. that story broke shortly after a much more significant one in some ways when the "washington post" first reported that the acting homeland security chief whose department is in charge of

securing the border feels frustrated and isolated even as he delivers what the president wants at the border. lonnie, as you were saying and those of us, his little nugget on the moat and the alligators, something everybody seems to have a memory of when he has said it. who knows how serious he was but he says it. >> look, even if it wasn't serious, this goes to -- >> he's daring a recording to pop up on this. the idea he never said it. >> it goes to the humanity of the situation, right, the notion that we would be shooting migrants. you can think we need to be tough on the border and to talk about shooting people sort of a whole other matter. you know, the mcleanen situation is tough because he's been doing his best to carry out the president's agendas. >> yes, which is what he points out -- >> it's a tough job. it's been a tough job which is why no one's been able to hold it for longer than a few months or a year in the administration. it's a tough job.

>> here's what he says -- what was amazing is you don't see people in the trump era say the stuff before they've been hacked -- whacked if you will. what i don't have -- this is what he tells the "post," what i don't have control over is the tone, the message, the public face and the approach of the department in an increasingly polarized time. that's uncomfortable as the accountable senior figure. some of this may be a little shot at steven miller. but he's -- if you're the dhs secretary, you have been sitting there whether it was him, nielsen, or kelly, you've been dealing with miller micromanaging. >> watching this develop the last two or three years, donald trump came with his own little cadre. when he first arrived, there were lots of either career people oh mainline republicans or conservative but not trump conservative republicans who were around him, trump tried all -- to one degree or another -- >> by the way -- >> got rid of most of them. >> these people wanted to see more on the border.

they were -- like, i wanted a few more tools. >> they agreed with the substance but not the use of it and the inhumane rhetorical ways he's using it. so what this is a prelude to with mcleanen is for mcleanen who's just acting, he's never been nominated, he's going to be out, and trump will nominate ken cuccinelli of virginia, who knows nothing about it but who is a tremendous propagandist -- >> he'll never get confirmed. >> acting. >> he can be acting because he's never been senate confirmed. trust me, don't you think he would make steven miller acting if he could? >> no because steven miller has more power sitting next -- >> i believe they need to be senate confirmed, i believe. now, we can -- we can get somebody -- >> he's got -- point is he's go. he's got people around, he's got bill barr. more and more he has the battle-tested, hardened, second-level capables in his

gang doing exactly what he wants. retroactively and substantively. >> i did ask mcleanen a couple of weeks ago if he wanted the job the full time. look at how he answered at the time and now knowing what he said about the president, it make make a lot of sense. take a listen. you want to go back to your old old job or do you want this job? >> u.s. custom border protection is my home and dream job. i'm honored to serve at dhs and we can continue to improve. >> will you take it permanently? >> i'm honored to serve right now and i'm trying to solve problems. >> is it fair to say you didn't answer? >> that's fair. >> he's seen what has happened to the people who have come before him. not just the career people there working a long time. i keep coming back to jeff sessions. there was not a stronger supporter during trump's campaign than jeff sessions. it was not the original cabinet. it's changed a lot. there was no anyone carrying out the trump agenda more dutifully.

>> during the session. >> correct and we know what happened to him. you don't have to be part of the "deep state" to be on the receiving end of trump's ire. >> here's my curiosity in this one, anybody else that sort of basically takes this kind of public shot at the white house, they're usually out. the president is so focused and so distracted, is mcaleenan weirdly safe right now because of the rest of this? >> he might be for a few years. run is, as we said, he's carrying out the president's agenda. second, he projects competency, he is competent. he has experience. in the administration, that's something you might want to put front and center during a time like this. so i don't know that he's in trouble because there's so much else going on. it's funny we're talking about this this far into the show. >> that's the question. this would create more uncertainty at a time but this president thrives on uncertainty but you would think he wouldn't want this kind of instability. >> and this is a process priority he needs for

re-election. he needs people working on and it and demonstrate it or he doesn't have a case. >> i just noticed reading up on cuccinelli, he headed a pact that took on mitch mcconnell. >> yeah. cuccinelli has lots of problems. that's one of them. >> kimberly, howard, lahanee, i love this conversation. is research something? thank you. up ahead, vladimir putin, maybe the president's not a good joker but apparently's putin's got a good stand-up routine as well. did you hear the one about the russian who walks into the ballot box and says -- be right back. predictable thing about the weather is it's unpredictable. so we make the most of it when the sun does shine. that's why bp is partnering with lightsource, europe's largest solar company. and should the weather change, yet again,

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. is russia as robert miller alleged attempting to influence the 2020 elections in the united states? >> translator: i'll tell you in a secret, yes, i will definitely intervene. it's a secret to everybody can laugh. so don't tell anyone please. >> smirnov, where is he? remember him?

vladimir putin joking about russian interference with a panel moderated here by our own kiernan from nbc news. dismissing the idea russia had anything to do with the call itself. joining me from tomorrow in moscow, my colleague kieran simmons. i know you're up late/early for us. thank you. i really want to dive into what you learned about where putin is on the ukraine issue, on relations with ukraine, and what it expects the united states to be doing about it. >> chuck, just that sound that you played, the piece that he's joking, kind of half joking. i don't think anyone had the opportunity to put to president putin the specific claim from robert mueller that russia is once again trying to meddle this time in 2020. and he gave him several opportunities to say that russia wouldn't do it and is not doing

it. and he wouldn't take those opportunities. he just played around as you heard there. specifically to your question about ukraine, it's interesting because i in a sense, i guess, given the dfl relationship between ukraine and russia expected him to sort of show some enjoyment to the difficult position the new president of ukraine is in. when in fact he took quite the opposite view, he absolutely weighed in behind president trump, suggested president trump is a victim. talked about president trump's critics lashing out at him and made the equation, equated what's happening with the phone call with the ukrainian president with the allegations of intervention in 2016 and just tried to make the claim this is all about internal u.s. politics. it's interesting, chuck, because i said to president putin, do you accept that actually your close relationship with

president trump has backfired on you? because effectively you're in the middle of this very, very polarized political confrontation in washington. >> great question. >> right. and he didn't accept that. it was an insight into the psychology of president putin really. i asked him if he thought he made any mistakes in relations to america and he said absolutely not. he reacted forcefully, we've done nothing destructive towards america. which gives you a picture of the kind of russian you're dealing with, somebody not prepared to bend, not prepared to give ground, and is clearly determined to continue to try to support his friend in the white house. >> but more importantly, what you just said about ukraine, the fact that he's supporting the president trump version of this is also a -- he was not unhappy with the freeze. >> yes. exactly right. you know, another interesting aspect of the conversation, because we got 90 minutes to

talk, chuck, and another interesting aspect of the conversation, i said to him, how would you be with the idea of the white house releasing rough transcripts of your conversations with president trump? and he said look, i will be relaxed about that and even suggested the kremlin had offered to help the white house release transcripts of the conversations in helsinki. so we will see if that happens. >> yes, we shall see. keir simmons, great work in moscow. thank you for getting up for work so early in the morning, let alone late. that's all we have for tonight. we will be back with more "mpt daily" tomorrow. we're late. my apologies to ari. >> no apology necessary. we begin with breaking news. democrats are on fire, just out of a briefing by president trump, with propaganda aimed