stored up there as well. >> i think he has a library in his head, i don't know. >> you can learn more about that process in the interview on msnbc.c msnbc.com/mavericks. "hardball" is up next. trump knows he's in trouble. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. we're witnessing a presidential melt down. trump seems to be deeply agitated now by the impeachment investigation. he's calling his critics traitors and calling the investigation itself a coup. can today in tweets and before the cameras trump spun himself into a frenzy. the president was asked to acknowledge what the evidence in the impeachment inquiry shows

already. but pressed several times trump refused to answer. >> mr. president, can you just make clear right here what do you or what did you want president zelensky to do with regard to joe and hunter biden? >> well i was having a problem with two things. number one, ukraine is before him for tremendous corruption, tremendous. more than just about any country in the world. in fact, they're rated one of the most corrupt countries in the world. and i don't like giving money to a country that's that corrupt. >> what about mr. biden? >> look, biden and his son are stone-cold crooked. >> the question is what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> it's a follow-up of what i just asked you, sir.

>> we have the president of finland. ask him a question. i've answered everything. >> like a taxi driver, you talking to me, that's robert dineros's line. saying last night what is taking place is not an impeachment it's a coup. and he said today democrats are wasting everyone's time and energy on b.s. i think he used the word in fact. and he also threatened a civil war if he's impeached and called the whistleblower complaint treasonous, many others as well. >> i'd like to ask you about the use of the word treason. you've used it repeatedly in the last few days. do you consider anyone who opposes you treasonous? >> i consider when they lie, when they stand before our great body, our great chamber and they make up a story that's fiction like schiff did. believe it or not, i watch my

words very carefully. there are those that think i'm a very stable genius. >> very stable genius, obviously. well, now "the washington post" is reporting the trump-ukraine scandal has ensnared vice president mike pence. at the same time trump was seeking dirt on joe biden president trump repeatedly involved vice president pence in efforts to exert pressure on the leader of ukraine. i'm joined now by democratic senator chris coons of delaware. thank you, senator, as always for joining us. this is not fun. it's serious. but the vice president now according to reporting seems to be engaged in the same thing trump was engaged in which is basically shaking down a foreign leader to get dirt on a political candidate, the candidate you're supporting, joe biden. shouldn't he be the subject of an impeachment inquiry as well at this point? >> look i think it's important we focus on the facts here.

>> i'm talking the facts. the facts now point to he and not showing up to the inauguration, for his conversation with president zelensky. he was working the same vein of opportunity the president himself was working, to leverage the need of that country for foreign military assistance, particularly weapons to use against tanks to get dirt on the candidate you support. >> that's right, chris. as you well know ukraine has been under withering support from russian separatist. and the newly elected president of ukraine was desperate to get this military assistance. and what we just learned this afternoon in a "the washington post" article was that vice president pence may have been much more actively engaged in a series of actions designed to send a message as president trump conveyed in the call with the new president zelensky that we now all have a summary of, he

asked them to do a favor. to dig up some dirt on his leading political opponent. and he then used the vice president later to deliver a message by directing him not to attend the inauguration of a justifiably nervous president zelensky and to convey to him the aid was not going to be released, not going to be forthcoming until they did something more. i frankly think if i were working for or advising vice president pence i'd tell him to be concerned because it seems that president trump has engaged him quite centrally in this series of facts, these actions that are really shocking. i think this is happening, chris, frankly, because president trump views joe biden as his strongest rival for re-election. he thinks joe biden has the best chance of beating him and that's why he's making these smears against joe and hunter biden. and i'll remind you in the 2016 election, president trump attacked virtually all of his republican primary opponents in some cases even famously just

making things up such as when he accused senator ted cruz's father of being involved somehow in the assassination of jfk. this september about who donald trump is. we know who he is. this is about what he's done as our president. >> i think this raises above even presidential politics right now, senator, because look what happened with the russian media response when pence called off his attendance at that inauguration over there. they jumped with glee at this because it made the point that our administration led by donald trump and supported by the vice president are supporting putin in his war basely on endangered ukraine. this is serious geopolitical stuff here. does it bother you just as an american we have a foreign policy and a national security driven by cheap, cheap oppo-negative politics? >> yes, obviously, chris, the situation with ukraine generated

bipartisan concern. several months ago when members of the foreign relations committee and appropriations committee learned this vitally needed assistance to ukraine was being held up for a number of undetermined reasons, there were a number of senators who pressed for answers, insight. and 1 of the striking things is senator durbin of illinois offered an amendment to the appropriations markup on september 12th that would put -- essentially would set aside some of the department of defense funding if this money to ukraine wasn't released. the money to ukraine was only released the night before that vote. and during that markup a number of senators, republicans and democrats said supporting ukraine in the face of russian aggression is an important national security goal. it enjoys wide bipartisan support, and there was a lot of expressions of concern by republicans and democrats at that early september markup about why the president was holding up this aid.

we've seen president trump give two i think conflicting suggestions. he was doing it because he wanted the yoeuropeans to contribute more when in fact the europeans have contributed far more than we have to ukraine's stabilization or rebuilding. or he doesn't like giving money to countries that are corrupt. there are many other countries in the world facing corruption challenges. i'm not aware of that being a focus of the trump administration ipcritically needed aid, either. and pelosi did a great job laying out a measured and fact based approach to this vital investigation. and i'm hoping it will move forward swiftly and with cooperation from the administration. >> i want to bring in right now peter baker, "the new york times" chief correspondent and coauthor of "impeachment an american history" and mary cort. you know what i'm pressed with is the national security piece of this.

i think that's what will drive this if anything will to impeachment and possible removal from office. the idea the united states foreign policy support for a country which is cheerily endangered and we've spent ever since world war ii looking around for those little countries around russia from being absorbed by them and again today more of that effort. and we're trying to be the good guys knowing we have a president who's not interested in that priority at all of being the good guy. >> the message it sends, of course, is that, you know, the support of this government is for sale and it's for sale by doing the political bidding of the president. not for any of the reasons that congress or others may want to be involved in those countries especially to push back on russian aggression. and the message that sends of course to the rest of the world, the dimuniation drawn in whether

wittingly or unwittingly in terms of what it does to this country's national security. >> peter, in the reporting which i rely on from "the times," the journal, and the post, my first sense was trump was this sort of odd ball political figure and anomaly who came into the u.s. government surrounded by people who weren't one of his. and now i see a cabal. i see him and now pence, maybe biden forced being drawn into this like in a mob or a gang. and i see pompeo and i see barr, all of them together now of like mind. they share in the same faction of thought, of ideology that they can get away with breaking all the rules, that there's some sort of supreme purpose they have that surrounds trump. what do you make of the fact you've got barr part of this now, pompeo part of this, and

now whatever reason the vp tonight. >> this president came in with the least experience, which is to say none in government or military any president before. no president had come into office in a single day in government or military office. and he surrounded himself with people we thought would be the grow ups in the room. the h.r. mcmasters, the rex tillersons, people who had been in office for a while. and they did in fact resist some of his desires. they're gone. most of those are gone. >> so what's pompeo doing on the phone? the president of the united states, the secretary of state both on the same phone call, one guy listening in to go after the new government of ukraine. what's this focus about? is this prior to the united states to get dirt on biden? is that the priority of our government? >> it clearly is a priority of the president to get cooperation on the investigation he's interested in. there was a report today he also

asked boris johnson of the u.k. to cooperate on this investigation to determine whether the mueller probe was legitimate or not. he's fixated on proving the mueller probe was in fact a hoax as he liked to say, and he's fixated on joe biden, absolutely, and he's looking for information. now if there was allegation tuesday be pursued you'd think they'd be pursued by law enforcement officers, not the president of the united states who has a political street in it. >> secretary of state mike pompeo confessed today he listened enon trump's july phone call with president zelensky. here he goes. >> was i on the phone call? the phone call was in the context now i've been secretary of state for coming on a year and a half. i know precisely what the american policy is with respect to ukraine. it's been remarkably consistent, and we will continue to try to drive those set of outcomes. >> i like to way he tucked that

fact in. anyway, "the washington post" reports it is very unusual for a secretary of state to listen in on calls with leaders from a country as small as ukraine. that's according to nfc staffers who say pompeo's subject on this call had high importance to the president and thus to him. mary? >> well, you know, i can't speculate on that. i know there are times certainly probably with foreign leaders of countries more significant with ukraine it's probably not unheard of for the secretary of state to be on the phone. but i think what we see here happening is we have so many of president trump's political appointees, his cabinet level appointees that seem as you said earlier to basically have swarmed around and now being a part of this pressure to investigate and not just to investigate generic corruption but to investigate corruption involving supposedly candidate biden's son and of course the beginnings of the 2016 russia

investigation, all things that would be very helpful. >> last point to both of you and that is there seem tuesday be a change in the president the last 24 hours. good reporting yesterday saying the president wasn't aware of the urgency of the situation. for example, he put out a summary of his conversation with zelensky. that's an odd thing for him to do. today he wouldn't be repeat the admission he made in putting out that summary. what's going on? >> i think you're right. he's becoming increasingly concerned what's happening here. he's watching the impeachment rolling forward at a break neck speed. i think he thought he was past the danger point when the mueller report came out, and he testified and didn't look like the house democrats were going to do anything. now he's recognizing the danger. you see the agitation we saw today. he was about as riled up as i think we've seen him. pushing back, fightingheard, using these fighting words like treason. but there's nothing around him right now, no strategy. and a lot of republicans are concerned because the only defense is one man and a twitter

account. >> well, we'll see who eats crow on thanksgiving this year. >> coming up the president angry and frightened lashing out against his perceived enemies all around him now except for those three our four he's got including mike pence. as the walls seem to be closing in on him and he's acting that way. >> these are bad people. these are dishonest people, and when the american people find out what happened, it's going to be a great day. >> and presidential candidate kamala harris joins me next here. we'll talk to her about president trump, what he should be worried about as the impeachment inquiry moves forward onto thanksgiving. so much more to get to tonight. stick with us. nksgiving. so much more to get to tonight stick with us.

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whose complaint has triggered this impeachment inquiry into president trump. and there continues to be concern about of course the whistleblower's safety. trump continued his attacks on that person today. >> how do you respond to concerns that you are putting the whistleblower's life in danger? >> well, the whistleblower is very inaccurate. no republicans have raised concerns. >> -- that the whistleblower should be protected? >> look, i think the whistleblower should be protected if the whistleblower is legitimate. he either got it totally wrong, made it up or the person giving the information to whistleblower was dishonest and this country has to find out who that person was because that person is a spy in my opinion. >> trump's unfounded accusations came after adam schiff said the president is inciting violence against the whistleblower. >> the president wants to make this all about the whistleblower

and suggest to people that come forward with evidence of his wrongdoing are somehow treasonous and should be treated as traitors and spies. this is a blatant effort to intimidate witnesses. oats an incitement of violence. >> for more i'm joined by presidential democratic candidate kamala harris. senator, what do you make of this as a former prosecutor? this witness intimidation, scaring a witness, it seems almost mob-like, racketeer-like to say all right you're going to go up there, you're going to turn evidence against us for the state, look out. >> well, there's -- there's no question. i mean, it's just so obvious, chris. it's not actually -- it doesn't require much creativity to figure out what exactly donald trump is trying to do. he's trying to intimidate this witness and others. and it is typical of his behaviors which is that he is not only a bully but he also is actually obviously motivated by

fear which is that the fear that this whistleblower is going to come forward and give credible information which is already deemed on its face to be credible by the i.g. that is going to lead to an inevitable conclusion which is the impeachment of donald trump. >> let me ask you your big thoughts about the range and scope of what's going on right now. i said in an earlier segment i thought trump was in this for himself and now he's got the attorney general in cahoots with him, secretary of state pompeo in cahoots with him and all working together and it seems now to the nasty business of opo research all run by the president with these men behind him. they're not just sinkofants like lindsey graham.

>> it's not like he made them do anything. these are grown men who all have pre-existi pre-existing roles of leadership and as member of the united states, congress, as governors and former attorney general, so they know what they're getting into when they're dealing with him and when they've engaged in the behaviors they've engaged in, apparently. they need to come before congress, they need to testify and under oath and tell the american people because they also have violated, apparently, the oath of office that they have taken. and so i would be cautious to suggest they've been lulled or seduced into something. if any of these individuals, if any of these men want to walk around wearing the lapel pin that they wear and have a bunch of staff running after them, calling them by their title, now they need to come before the united states congress wearing that title and speak truth about what they have or have not done in terms of either violating the oath of office they've taken or

adhering to the promise they made the american people is they hold these offices in the public trust, that they hold these offices with loyalty that they should be pledging to the united states people, the people of our country, not donald trump. >> you know, if possible if it comes to a senate trial and it may well by the end of this year where you'll be a juror in that trial for removal of the president from office if he's impeached, if that develops as the history of this year, you're going to a vice president of the united states who would take the presidency after having been involved personally in cabal that we'd be impeaching the president for. how does that make sense historically? if pence was part of this how could he survive as president when trump goes? >> well, you're raising a very important point, which is that the vice president has a lot to answer to. and he also should be brought before the united states congress to speak about what

exactly was his involvement and what if any solicitations were made pie the president to have the vice president engage in unethical conduct. and illegal conduct. >> also if trump is dpaelt of a trade to u.s. surkt arrangements with a country endangered by the russians and maybe he did the same thing. let me ask you about earlier today house speaker pelosi said she thinks president trump is lashing out at the democrats because of his fear of impeachment. let's watch her analysis. >> i think the president knows the argument that can be made against him, and he's scared. and so he's trying to divert attention from that to where it's standing in the way of legislation. >> what do you make of her performance so far especially in the last two weeks? >> i think we should all be very thankful at at this moment in time that nancy pelosi is the speaker because she has -- and

no one can question this, she has been thoughtful, she's been reflective, she has been measured every step of the way. you know, i like so many other democrats have been calling for impeachment for some time. nancy pelosi has been very measured and very tempered in the way she's approached this, and that is -- that is the way that she operates and i have nothing but respect for the way she's been handling this issue. >> what do you think of the president's report that the president of the united states wants crocodiles, alligators, snakes and all sorts of scary animals in the water and people from crossing the rio grande, what do you make of that? that's a factual report. >> you know i'm at a loss for words except to say that this president has a mentality that really is about beating people down and destroying them. you're talking about a moat with

alligators and snakes. he's talking about going back to some medieval tactic because apparently his brain has not evolved to understand that there are modern approaches to dealing with immigration and in particular what really needs to happen is comprehensive immigration reform and a pathway to citizenship. >> what do you make of maya rudolf's imitation of you last saturday night? was that over the top? i thought it was a bit over the top. your thoughts. there it is, we're watching it now. >> look, i plan on keeping maya rudolf and work for the next eight years. >> anyway, i think you're much more restrained than that but thank you so much senator kamala harris of california for coming on. thank you. coming up u.s. congressman adam schiff says he's not fooling around on impeachment investigation as democrats set a dead line for documents. of course i want him to defy

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump's outburst this morning came just after three chairs at the heart of the impeachment inquiry, oversight, foreign affairs and intelligence

game the white house an u ultimatum. turn over the documents or a subpoena is coming. in a memo they wrote the white house's flagrupt disregard of multiple voluntary requests for documents combined with stark and urgent warnings from the inspector general has left us with no choice but to issue a subpoena. and one of those chairman adam schiff of the house intelligence delivered a sterner warning. >> if they are going to prevent witnesses from coming forward to testify on the allegations and the whistleblower complaint, that will create an avarice inference of those allegations are in fact correct. we're not fooling around here, though. we don't want this to drag on months and months and months which appears to be the administration's strategy. >> president trump would ask if he'd cooperate if the committees followed through on that subpoena. >> well, i always correspondent. this is hoax. this is fraudulent crime on the american people, but we'll work together, with shifty schiff and

pelosi and all of them and we'll see what happens because we did absolutely -- i had a great call with the president of ukraine. it was 100%. you have the transcript. >> for more i'm joined by democratic congresswoman alicia slatkin of michigan. she's held multiple positions. and joyce vance, former u.s. attorney. congresswoman, thank you for coming on tonight. is it better for trump to just continue his policy of stone walling and not letting anybody testify or turn over any documents so that in the end it just becomes perhaps the second article for impeachment, just move it ahead before thanksgiving, just let them impeach themselves? >> no, i mean i think what is the best scenario is that he actually allows his administration to listen to it constitution and come and testify in front of congress. i don't think it's good for anybody to just have the executive branch and legislative branch at loggerheads. and if indeed this was all a big

misstrake then the onus is on the administration to demonstrate that. >> what about the fact they've already demonstrated already which is they know how to slow this game down? they'll say i'll gladly give you the documents december 13th or december 26th or i'll get going on this on some tuesday in january. it's in their interests to drag this out well past thanksgiving and christmas, isn't it? isn't the game they're playing time? >> clearly. i mean, they're playing this on these hearings but also related to a lot of other committee work that's been going on for nine months. i think one of the things that myself and the six other coauthors of our op-ed a week ago coming out for an inquiry we didn't just talk about a need for an inquiry but the need to be muscular about it and not let the administration drag this out precipitously. and no one wants to get there, but i do think we have to start thinking about what are the consequences of them not showing up by a certain date.

and no one wants this, but we did include in our op-ed the possibility of holding someone in contempt. no one in real america gets to just not show up when they're subpoenaed. >> congresswoman, you sound like a sound public servant i just wondered about the other side. they stone walled all requests for documents, they've never come up with the president's tax returns. the statute is clear they shall turn it over to the house ways and means in the senate, they don't do it. the president is behind every one of these defiances. why continue to go into the paperwork of going after them knowing they're just playing for time? >> looks like there's a new strategy, and yns it's an interesting idea. you know, as you point out, chris, the litigation process is still very slow. we're now waiting months down the road to hear about whether the mac began subpoena will be enforced. but congressman schiff seems to

be beginning a new narrative where he'll be able to tell a story to the american people about what it means when he's stonewalled. there are regulations inside the executive branch that would let the secretary or a lower level delegate refuse to permit someone to go and up on the hill. and what we see in the subpoenas and the narrative schiff is releasing if they do that, if they continue to foreclose testimony, he'll then make the case to the american people they're doing this because they have something to hide. and even worse than that, that they are obstructing congress. so it now becomes i think as the congresswoman points out, a possible article of impeachment. everyone would like to see the executive branch comply, the american people are entitled to the truth. but there has to be accountability and consequences. it looks like schiff is starting to walk down that path towards finding a way to combat this administration. >> so noncompliance is admission of guilt. anyway, the threat of white

house subpoenas comes on the same day secretary of state mike pompeo pushed back against congressional requests to interview current and state department officials. here he goes. >> we will of course do our constitutional duty to cooperate with this coequal branch, but we're going to do so in a way consistent with the fundamental values of the american system. and we don't tolerate folks on capitol hill intimidating state department employees. it's unacceptable and not something i'm going to permit to happen. >> however, during the two-yearlong house investigation into benghazi then congressman pompeo had no problem pressuring hillary clinton's state department official and the obama white house itself into cooperating. >> our task is really straightforward. it's to take the data, collect the data, get the documents, speak to the folks who know about the events of the runup to that evening. our goal is quite simple. it's to get every single fact we

can get, every document, every witness to put together the puzzle, the mosaic for the american people. my charn charge is clear, to get to the bottom of the facts that surrounded this enormous policy failure. the president didn't turn over the documents in response to a congressional subpoena, and that's unacceptable. i need to make sure everyone involved in this has the opportunity to speak with us, share their testimony, their thoughts about what really happened that night. >> there's a picture of fox and friend. congresswoman, let me ask you something given your career, your résume and that's national security. i think this is something about taking foreign policy especially military assist toons which is beleaguered. the russians have taken part of crimea already. they took crimea, taking part of eastern -- they're basically occupying eastern ukraine. they're moving, and it's our tank missiles that are used to stop them. and the trump people including

the vice president now holding up that arm shipment to get the dirt on a political opponent here at home. what do you make of that as a member of congress? >> well, i do think it's important we be really, really careful about the facts, right? what we know for sure is that the president has acknowledged it and the president's lawyer acknowledged it is they reached out to the president of ukraine and asked for dirt on an american, a political opponent and asked a foreigner for that. we know that the aid was suspended for a time, we do not know yet and that's why we're looking into the facts exactly why and we have two different sides to that story, and i think it's important we stick to the facts here. i know from my time at the pentagon, one of the things i worked on was getting military aid to ukraine right after 2014 and up through 2016, we're the biggest donor of military supplies to the ukrainians. they have lost 13,000 people in their war, so it's a big deal that aid would be suspended in any way and that's why it's important to understand exactly

why it happened because for me that's a second piece of the problem here. but the first order problem is that the president acknowledged that he went to a forneigner fo dirt on an american. >> he got me with this line, i'd like you to do me a favor, though. thank you. up next, our president can't distinguish between the united states himself. he calls the state himself. he thinks the justice department and state department work for him and his critic, any partisan critic is a traitor. you're watching "hardball." s a . you're watching "hardball.

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welcome back to "hardball." president trump was elected of course promising that only he knew how to fix things. >> nobody knows the system

better than me, which is why i alone can fix it. >> nearly three years into his presidency the political novice has bragged about having the power to do whatever he wants. >> i have an article, too, where i have the right to do whatever i want as president but i don't even talk about that. >> in that capacity he's demanded multiple agencies help him. the justice department is currently conducting a probe to discredit the findings by u.s. intelligence agencies, 17 of them, that russia meddled in the 2016 election to help trump. well, the state department's investigating some of its current and former officials in connection with hillary clinton's e-mails now. right now. and trump has enlisted the secretary of the treasury to obstruct congress' inquiry into his tax returns. one explanation according to "the washington post" is that president trump has grown confident about exercising power, disposing of aids who acted as guardrails and

elevating those who prove their loyalty by following their orders. it's as if president trump took president kennedy's famous inaugural calls to service and flipped it on its head. >> so my fellow americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. >> president trump seems to be saying with every act it's not what i can do for my country, it's what my country can do for me. emboldened president trump continues to portray anyone questioning him as attacking america, and that's coming up next right after this break. you're watching "hardball." next right after this break. you're watching "hardball.

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in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs... prof: maria ramirez mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! to help more employees achieve their dreams. nch wop k nch. welcome back to "hardball." the president has frequently claimed an attack on him is an attack on america. >> they were going hog-wild to find something about the administration which obviously isn't there. this was a coup, this was an attempted overthrow of the united states government. i call the fake news the enemy of the people, and they are. they are the enemy of the people. >> can you explain your decision not to go to denmark because they really wouldn't talk about selling greenland? >> no, denmark i look forward to going because i thought the prime minister's statement -- she's not talking to me, she's

talking to the united states of america. you don't talk to the united states that way, at least not to me. >> well, those who have deigned to question him should be arrested for treason he says and for plotting a coup. as "the washington post" writes trump is invoking the ramp arar and idioms. >> do you consider anyone who opposes you treasonous. >> i consider when they lie. when they stand before our great body, our great chamber and make up a story that's fiction. >> for more i'm joined by robert costa. let me go to bob costa on this question of trump's identification of himself, he is is the state as i said in french. he is the united states government. what do you make of it? >> my colleague phil rucker and i on today's front palk of "the washington post" documented how president trump has become more comfortable using executive power 2 1/2 years into his

presidency. when you talk to his confidants and associates they say he's surrounding himself with people who are supporting his position, not arguing with him at almost every turn and are using his cabinet and officials to try do his bidding at times for political gain. >> it does seem now we're getting into focus with this whole thing with ukraine, with the vice president tonight and with the secretary of state and attorney general. everything revolves around saving this president's keyster. >> it is also a psychological play. donald trump sufferers from some form of pretty extreme narsism in which he views the world only in terms of how it affects him. now it's all about saving his presidency, removing the taint of the russia investigation, which does i think undermine his legitimacy as president and that's all he cares about. >> that was the second point and bill barr going around the world

sitting in on these meetings, it's about getting information to discredit the russian probe. that's what's motivating him now. and so that's really what's going on here. >> he's looking back and looking forward. as we mentioned earlier vice president mike pence is being dragged deeper into the entanglement here. a week ago when president trump first publicly defended himself against the wrongdoing, he alluded to his own interactions with the ukrainian president. let's take a look at that. >> i think you should ask for vp pence's conversation because he had a couple of conversations also. i could save you a lot of tile. they're all perfect. nothing was mentioned of any import other than congratulations. but the word is they're going to ask for the first phone conversation. you can have it any time you need it, and also mike pence's conversations which were i think one or two of them, they were perfect. they were all perfect. >> robert, had a hint of richard nixon. nothing wrong with what he did,

but he was the guy who didn't go to the inauguration, he was the guy who talked to president zelensky about cutting off the aid. he certainly dragged him in and i don't think he wants to pea part of this cabal. >> as a reporter i've seen up close how vice president pence has been dragged into this situation four weeks go in war saw. i was in the room when he met with president zelensky of ukraine, not talking about vice president biden but they did talk about naa broad way corruption. he did want have the init tent to try to solicit interference in the 2020 election. at the same time you see vice president pence involved in a similar way to attorney general barr and secretary of state pompeo. they're part of these conversations about ukraine at some level. >> what about the conundrum here? if this president is impeached, which i think is pretty likely right now and if he's removed from office which there's less chance of that perhaps, but if he is removed from office in favor of mike pence, mike pence is involved in the same cabal

which is using u.s. foreign policies to get dirt on rivals. this one particular incident in fact involving the president of ukraine. that's a little odd to inaugurate swearing in a president. >> and remember secretary of state mike pompeo, what is he fifth in the line of secession, so the question is can donald trump go down without taking everyone around him down? >> well, they will go with him. they'd go with him. >> a sinking ship creates this gigantic whirl pool -- >> are they all like minded? i used to think enablers but i get the feeling it seems like these people are not in a sidecar but they're riding with him. you know, they're riding with him in common thought and purpose. pompeo seems to be a trumpian, so does barr, seems to be a trumpian. the vice president i thought was

keeping his distance, but he's been pulled in. are they like seeking gentlemen or basically people kissing up to get what they want to get politically? >> based on my reporting, chris, they're not in ideological lock step with president trump. instead their survival is with an administration where they feel like they need to work with him on some of his projects even if they think privately this is not the direction the president should go in. they feel like john kelly, the former chief of staff, jim mattis the former defense secretary struggled and then failed to contain this president, so they don't even have the allusion their associates tell us that they could contain president trump. >> but the issue there is why do they have to contain him -- >> okay, i was only following orders. thank you. and up next trump confesses his real reason for attacking the press like he was attacking them today. but here's why he did it. you're watching "hardball." heret you're watching "hardball.

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do we need to know more get a better explanation of this man's m.o. or his motives? he trashes reporters so no one will believe what they report about him. trump was doing it again today, hiking up the name-calling. >> i don't even use "fake" anymore. i call the fake news corrupt news because fake isn't tough enough. and i'm the one who came up with term, but i think i'm going to switch it largely to corrupt news because the media in this country not all because we have some great reporters, great journalists, but much of it is corrupt. >> corrupt press, could this explain trump's refusal to condemn saudi prince mohammed bin salman the man behind the killing and actual butchering of "the washington post" columnist jamal khashoggi a year ago today. and secretary of state mike pompeo have led the killer back to global respectability, sharing the pot light with him. look at them there.

and as we've learned donald trump doesn't honor the accepted rules of man kind such as you're not supposed to shoot the messenger. it's not the only rule of basic human behavior he's refused to uphold. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us tonight. all in with chris hayes starts right now. >> tonight on "all in." >> i think the president knows the argument that can be made against him and he's scared. >> democrats wield their power to hold the president accountable. >> we're not fooling around here. >> and the president absolutely melts down. >> he couldn't carry his blank strap. >> tonight donald trump's sound and fury defense. >> ask the president of finland to question please. >> and why that will not save him from the impeachment inquiry. >> the question, sir, is what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> then -- >> what do you know about those conversations? >> so you just gave me a