very, very talented people, word for word. comma for comma. done by people that do it for a living. we had an exact transcript. >> okay, let's take a look at that exact transcript and see what the talented people wrote. right on the first page it says, not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. >> now, i get three days of peace and i'm walking into the united nations, going to meet with the biggest leaders in the world, and i hear about the word impeachment. i said what did i do now? >> well, it's good to know -- it's good to know even you can't keep track of your crimes. [ laughter ] >> but, why -- [ laughter ] >> way ahead of me. but, here's my problem. here's my problem with what he just said. why did you get three days of peace? that's not fair. >> nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like, you know, she has to approve it.

she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take them like they're cookies. >> yes, they are like cookies because that's the way your presidency crumbles. [ laughter ] >> that's stephen colbert last night. good morning, welcome to "morning joe." it's thursday, october 3rd. i'm willie geist. joe and mika have the morning off. with us we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle and karine jean tee, a, jonathan lemire, sam stein, and the director of domestic policy studies at stanford university. mike, i know how close you were to the president, walk me through his day yesterday sitting at the side of the president of the united states for two press gatherings that were astonishing. >> it was an interesting

afternoon for the president of finland. if you look at him closely you can see as we saw from hanoi several decades ago, the international s.o.s. sign as he's blinking basically saying, you know, how quickly i can get to dull tlos ges to get out of ? what a totally awkward situation. >> and the one moment where president trump was asked by finland, he said something like, well, they got rid of nancy pelosi and shifty schiff. january th jonathan, joking aside, is there anyone that recognized yesterday that it was bizarre? >> what you saw yesterday was a president alone. this is someone who has no formal war room. he has very few republicans willing to go on television and defend him. and there's an extraordinary amount of pressure building on

him day and day as a lethal recognition of this story. what we saw how he's acted in prift for the last week, angry at his staff and aides and anyone can he talk to and that rage burst into the public yesterday. some of that steam he's been letting off on twitter all along. but what we saw in the first events, first in the oval office and then in that surreal press conference next to the president of finland was his rage at the predicament he's in because at the moment he doesn't see any way out. >> we are down to -- at least according to my source -- down to very few members of the staff. it's very thinned out around the president. but what is the temperature of the staff in i'm told that they are increasingly frustrated and angry at their boss, the president. >> that's true. when this story first broke there are was an element of, okay, here's another bad news story, we had a bunch of these before and we got through those, the mueller probe, and it's an

anticipation they will again. this is an administration that is flailing. there are very few powerful voit voices left in the room. and mick mulvaney is not trying to reel him in and rudy giuliani continue to make the situation worse. there doesn't seem to be a way out and there seems to be growing legal exposure for anyone in the building. >> when he was asked by jeff mason yesterday, what did you want president zelensky to do about joe biden, he wouldn't answer the question. we begin with the latest morning consult political tracking poll which shows america's support hitting a new high. 46% of voters say congress should begin impeachment proceedings to remove president trump. that's up three points since last week. 58% of voters say they believe trump committed and pees impeac

offense. house democrats plan to subpoena the white house tomorrow. if they do not comply with a request for documents relating to president trump's actions with ukraine. they sent a letter in tandem yesterday demanding material related to trump's july call with ukraine's president as well as any attempts to conceal his purported actions. top democrats reiterated their intent in a news conference shortly after. >> we do place ourselves in a time of urgency on the threat to the constitution and we see the actions of this president being assault on the constitution. >> we're not fooling around here. they just need to know that even as they try to undermine our ability to find the facts around the president's effort to coerce a foreign leader to create dirt that he can use against a

political opponent, that they will be strengthening the case on obstruction. >> more on chairman schiff and the whistleblower in a moment. meanwhile, kurt volker, the former u.s. special enstroy ukraine resigned after his name appeared in the whistleblower about president trump's dealing with ukraine will appear on private hill today. he's expected to testify before congressional investigators as part of house democrats impeachment inquiry where he will face questions about any role he may have played in trump's efforts to push ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president joe biden. the state department said volker has confirmed that he put an adviser for ukraine's president in contact with president trump's personal lawyer rudy giuliani and giuliani has said he was in frequent contact with volker. amid all that, president trump lashed out yesterday against democrats and the media a number of times yesterday. he posted a tweet containing profanity writing the do nothing

democrats should be focused on building up our country, not wasting everyone's time and energy on bs, although he wrote the word, which is what they have been doing ever since i got overwhelmingly elected in 2016. 223-306. get a better candidate this time you'll need it. yesterday afternoon he got into this heated exchange with reuters' white house reporter jeff mason but never answered the question. >> sir, what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his so hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> yeah, it was just a follow-up of what i just asked you, sir. >> listen. listen, are you ready? we have the president of finland, ask him a question. >> i have one for him i gist want to follow up on the one i asked you. >> did you hear me? did you hear me? >> yes. >> ask him a question. >> i've given you a long answer. ask this gentleman a question. don't be rude. >> no, sir, i don't want to be rude, i just wanted grou have a chance to answer the question i've asked you. >> i've answered everything. it's a whole hoax and you know who's playing into the hoax? people like you and the fake

news media. i saw schiff trying to go -- call him shifty schiff. we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. he's a shifty dishonest guy. he should resign from office in disgrace. and frankly they should look at him for treason. >> biden and his son are stone cold crooked. and you know it. nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like, you know, she has to approve it. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take 'em like they're cookies. they've been trying to impeach me from the day i got elected. i've been going through is this for three years. believe it or not, i watch my words very carefully. there are those that think i'm a very stable genius, okay. i watch my words very, very closely. >> so, karine, through all the smoke screen, all that noise, there's one question at the center of all of this.

i will quote jeff mason, mr. president can you just make clear right now, what did you want president zelensky to do regarding joe and hunter biden. >> right. >> in that long exchange where the went off talking about money that we give or we give too much money to ukraine or they're not corrupt and rob portman was celebrating him, he never answered that question. >> because we all know the answer. he's admitted to it it's clear as day. we saw it in the whistleblower's report, we saw it from the readout from the call. we know there is why it's resonating with people because it's a clear-cut case. this is why we're seeing the polling moving so quickly on this. it's only been ten days, it's not a drip, drip, drip are the polling, it's a really steady flow. what we're seeing from this president is someone who is drowning in his lies. that is exactly what's happening. wha and what he's doing, he can't focus on anything else, he's focusing 100% on conspiracy

theories in the is where this president is right now because he is desperate. he knows impeachment is coming his way. we're in an inquiry but he knows impeachment is coming his way. bill clinton was able to survive impeachment because he focused on the job. donald trump is just digging himself deeper and deeper. every time he speaks, every time he tweets, he makes the job of democrats much easier and he makes it harder for republicans. >> and sam stein, when jeff mason put that question to the president which is the nut of everything we're talking about right now, he had a tantrum. he didn't want to answer the question. he yelled at him and told him to respect the president of finland, ask a question, anything but answer the question. >> kudos to jeff for standing his ground there and asking it three times. three times trump had the opportunity to answer the question and he didn't. but to karine's point, we know the answer. the answer has been stated for weeks and known really for months they were in ukraine

trying to dig up dirt on joe biden. and that that's why this controversy, this is so existential. it's simple in some ways. we know how he used the machine riff government machinery of government. it is a remarkable thing and a troubling thing frankly to watch the president of the united states have a tantrum like that and not be able to compartmentalize anymore than he's doing right now. and i think that adds to the sort of urgency that democrats feel on the hill. when you talk to democrats, there's an urgency that they feel about this that is sort of profound because they're witnessing what trump is doing and they're worried about what he will do in this moment because he feels so caged in. but kudos to jeff and i think we should expect this type of behavior amplified going forward. >> we're starting to see people

run for the exits. we saw rudy giuliani saying the state department put me up to it. yesterday there was "washington post" reporting seis unnamed sources around the president saying i talked to president zelensky but i didn't know that president trump talked to him about some kind of a deal regarding the bidens, i was just there to root out corruption. you see people closest to the president in vice president pence covering their rear ends. >> yeah. well this is going to be the challenge going forward which is as this proceeding continues, there's going to be a balance amongst whether it's people on the president's staff, people around the president, republicans on capitol hill which is the balance between continuing to defend the president knowing that there will be political repercussions for not defending the president, and recognizing that individuals have careers, they have reputations that extend beyond this presidency. and the question's going to be fish or cut bait? and at what point do people begin to focus on the future

rather than the president? and i think that's going to be the most interesting question for republicans and people in the administration going forward, which is how do they draw this balance? where do they draw the line? and to what extent are they eli willing to defend the president at all costs versus defending themselves? >> so when the president was railing against the president again and again calling them the enemy of the people, he made one exception at that joint news conference with the president of finland who said there was a good "new york times" story put out for me today, let's get into that. the chairman of the house intel committee reportedly learned about the ukraine whistleblower's complaint against president trump days before it was officially filed. according to the "new york times," citing a spokesman for adam schiff along with current and former u.s. officials, the cia officer, the whistleblower, approached a house intel committee aide with his concerns about the president only after first having a colleague relay them to the cia's top lawyer. the times says the officer approached the aide after becoming concerns about how

their initial attempt for revealing the allegations through the cia was unnolding adding that in both cases the original accusation was vague. they go on to write that the staff member following the committee procedures suggested the officer find a lawyer to advise and meet with an inspector general with whom he could file an official whistleblower complaint. the aide shared some of what was conveyed to chairman schiff but not the whistleblower's identity. in a statement for nbc news he said in port the whistleblower contacted the committee for guidance and how to report possible wrongdoing within the jurisdiction of the intelligence community in the is a regular occurrence given the unique oversight role and responsibilities. at no point did the committee review or receive the complaint in advance. top members of the senate intel committee, including republican chairman richard burr, suggested the house committee followed protocol staying was standard procedure to refer whistleblowers to the relevant inspectors general. here's president trump's reaction yesterday to that "new york times" report. >> your response to the fact

that that happened and that schiff may have learned some of what the whistleblower knew prior to the complaint? >> i think it's a scandal that he knew before. i'd go a step further, i think he probably helped write it, okay, that's what the word is. and i think it's -- i give a lot of respect "the new york times" for putting it out. just happened as i'm walking up here they handed it to me and i stowed mike, i said, whoa, that's something. that's big stuff. that's a big story. he knew long before and he helped write it too. it's a scam. it's a scam. just to finish on this, i appreciate it, i love that second question by the way, should have asked it first. but let me just tell you, the whole thing is a scam. the mueller deal was a scam. the russian collusion was a scam. you can ask putin. nobody's been rougher on russia than donald trump, okay. >> we should point out the reporter asking the question to the president misrepresented the

times reporting putting forth the idea that chairman schiff knew about the substance of the complaint in advance which allowed the president to suggest that he had a hand in writing it. the reporting in schiff's statement say that is not the case. let's bring in the correspondent covering national security and intelligence, ken dilanian. you've been on this story all night. walk us through what exactly happened and if adam schiff did anything wrong. because the president clearly it and we saw all day yesterday after this story broke his supporters claiming they have a smoking gun here that somehow adam schiff helped the whistleblower craft his complaint to get at the president. >> well, willie, the most important thing for our viewers to understand about this is what happened here is exactly how the system is supposed to work and thousand routine how it routinely works with the house and senate communities. an officer will come to the committees, particularly in this case the house intelligence committee with a complaint of what sort that they want to

fwroing congress's attention. and the staff will always give thimm them the same answer. don't tell us anything classified, we're on an unsecured phone most likely, get a lawyer and go to the inspector general, file your complaint and it will get to us eventually if it's an urgent concern. and most of those complaints never end up getting to them because they're often not very serious. this one was quite serious. but there's no evidence that schiff's office or schiff's aides helped this whistleblower write this complaint. and we don't even know exactly what schiff knew about it. i mean, he knew it was serious, that's clear. but it's also important for people to understand that this wasn't the first time that this whistleblower had conveyed his complaint. he first through a colleague brought his complaint to the cia specter gener inspector general. he become convinced, according to the new york times, that the complaint was not being handled properly because he knew that

the cia inspector general had alerted the white house counsel's office, the very subject of the complaint about the contents of it and had brought in officials at the justice department and the whistleblower was worried that it was going to be essentially covered up. so he goes to the house committee. the house committee says file a complaint with the inspector general. he does that. the next thing schiff learns about it is that the complaint is being withheld. congress gets notified by the inspector general we have this urgent concern complaint but the white house and the justice department is not letting us pass that on to you. and that's when adam schiff issues a news release and says he's issuing a subpoena for this complaint if the was friday, september 13th. and i remember checking around in my sources, other sources among -- in congress. no one else seemed to know whether this was significant or not. and people were speculating that schiff was out on a limb here. but in fact now we know did he know, had he a heads-up. but that's a good thing because he was able to take the kind of

action that made sure that the white house could not cover this up, which appears to be what they were trying to do. >> well, it's worth underlining, too, that richard burr, the chair of the senate intel committee, a republican, richard burr, not exactly a member of the squad, came out and said this is standard operating procedure the way this went down. sam stein, i want to play a clip from this very show september 17th, chairman schiff was on the show and you asked him a question that has raised some eyebrows in the last 24 hours. >> congressman, a couple questions here on this whistleblower front. first off, have you heard from the whistleblower? are you -- do you want to hear from the whistleblower? what protections could you provide to the whistleblower? and you said that the dni is refusing to turn over this stuff citing a request from a higher authority. the insinuation left for me and others was that the president himself had intervened. is that the insinuation you sought to provide and, if so,

what base zois you hais do you making that insinuation? >> i'm sure the whistleblower has been advised as the law requires by the inspector general or the director of national intelligence just as to how he is to communicate with congress. and so the risk to the whistleblower is retaliation. will the whistleblower be protected under the statute if the offices that are supposed to come to his assistance and provide the mechanism are unwilling do so. but we would love to talk directly with the whistleblower. >> sam, you spoke to chairman schiff last night. i want to read the quote again. quote, we have not spoken directly with the whistleblower. how does he explain that when clearly at that point the whistleblower had come to chairman schiff's committee? >> so we talked to a couple minutes last night. he expressed regret for not having been more clear in his wording. >> what did he say? >> he said at the time when he was saying that obviously we now

know that the whistleblower had approached his staff, but there wasn't 100% certainty that the whistleblower who when approached his staff was the same one behind the actual complaint. there was a suspicion it was but it wasn't 100% certainty. he also was explaining that he was trying to compel whistleblower to testify before the committee when he was saying that, but, again, he expressed regret for what he said on the initial interview with "morning joe" and said he should have been much more clear about it. i will say this puts him in some -- in some trouble. he clearly wasn't being forthright in that interview with us a couple weeks ago and he should have been. that being said, if you're really bothered by the -- what words schiff said a couple weeks ago he and not the complaint or the fact that, for instance, mike pompeo claimed he wasn't on the call and it turned out he was, then you're being dishonest

about this entire process. it's the substance of the complaint that's the story. the process by which the complaint became public is a story, and you can consider that in its own right, but in terms of gravity of the situation, i don't think the process actually stands up all that well to the complaint itself. >> that committee official by the way, did concede, quote, the chairman could have been more clear, as sam said, but said he was referring to the committee officially interviewing the whistleblower and himself personally. so, mike, but, again, the story that was spun yesterday by the white house and others was that adam schiff helped the whistleblower write the complaint. that's patently false? >> and it's no surprise that they would go there with that. but ken dilanian, in the course of your reporting, did you bump into any concern about what happened at the cia and the cia counsel's office with the whistleblower approaching the counsel and the counsel's reaction was to take the complaint initially to the white

house? >> yes, mike. a lot of concern about how it was handled. now, what experts in this whole process have said is that the general counsel of an agency has an obligation to sort of do that. they're not the inspector general. in fact, that's why people are advised to take complaints to the inspector general who's independent, not the general counsel who sort of has to inform everyone. because this was a serious complaint about the conduct of the president of the united states. and it was only natural that you would go -- start circulating it around the government to investigate it. it also went to the justice department. that said, there's a lot of concern about a general counsel, trump appointee of the cia, concern about where her loyalties lie. cia officials insist she's a straight shooter and protecting the agency. but i have heard from sources concerned that she is political and that she's protecting donald trump's interests. so that is -- will be a subject of inquiry, i think, as this

process moves forward. >> ken, do we know whether she knew the whistleblower's identity? >> that is not 100% clear, but because the whistleblower went to her through a colleague. but once it became clear, certain identifying facts about this whistleblower, what his expertise was, where he had worked, there are not a large number of people that fit that description. and so it's fairly easy, i think, for white house officials at this point to determine at least a short list of suspects, mike. >> all right. ken dilanian, thank you very much. we'll be back to this story shortly. still ahead, we know the secretary of state and attorney general play a role but what about the vice president? we get to the new reporting that says president trump involved mike pence in his efforts to pressure ukraine's leader. vice president pence said i didn't know nothing. first, let's get bill karins with a look at the forecast. yesterday was relick cue lousily hot. this map shows you every area in

red was the hottest area ever record the in month of october, new orleans, jacksonville, washington, d.c., newark, charlotte, noc. how about this, charlotte, noc, hottest day of the year was yesterday, in october. warmer than any summer day. it's cooled off significantly in the northeast, there's light rain to deal with through pennsylvania, new york, it's raining in the great lakes. the temperature change has been dramatic. you need the jacket 'morning. 49 syracuse. new york city at 55. everyone's about 20 degrees cooler as the rain and the clouds have moved in. but not everyone's going to see that. it's still exceptionally hot throughout the south today. atlanta 97 degrees, one of your hottest ever october temperatures is expect today. d.c. does cool off. it's richmond southwards that will stay exceptionally hot. as we head towards the weekend it still stays hot into friday. we go from 90s at least to 80s

in that area of the countries. watch out for rain on saturday in northern portions of the midwest. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. i'm bad.

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welcome back to "morning joe." president trump repeatedly involved vice president mike nens efforts to put pressure on the leader of ukraine. those officials tell the post trump instructed pence not attend the inauguration of ukrainian president zelensky back in may, an event they pushed to put on the vice president's calendar. officials say months later the president used pence to tell the ukrainian president that u.s. aid was still being withheld while demanding more aggressive

action on corruption. that was after president trump's july 25th phone call with zelensky. officials close to pence insist he was unaware of president trump's efforts to pressure ukraine for information about bide and his son. the press second wrote in part, despite the post's attempt to glorify a grand conspiracy being conkoktd by a select number of disgruntled former employees, it's crystal clear that the vice president directly and effectively delivered the president's anticorruption and burden sharing messages overseas and upon his return the financial tide ukraine was released, et cetera, et cetera. jonathan lemire, what's the dynamic right now between president trump and the vice president? youy ha you have people saying the vice president didn't know there was this quid pro quo, he thought he was fighting corruption and then other people coming up and shooting down "the washington

post.." >> the vice president to this point has been very careful with president trump, never breaking with him publicly, always expressing his loyalty, gazing at his adoringly in public news events. but this is a moment where people around him sense some danger here, that pence is involved to some degree. just like he knew what happened in the russia probe and investigation and now this where they're taking care to create some zns between the president and ukraine and rudy giuliani because there's concern about him in office and his future going forward in the is someone who is going to run for president someday. and while there's a limit to how much can he break publicly with the president because he knows trump is standing with republicans and trump is still his boss, there is concern here. it furthers the idea of this president and how isolated he's become. there are few people around him who he can trust and go to and he's taking leaks and attacks from all sides.

>> let's leave gazingly adoringly at him, pence, but in yesterday's press appearance in the oval and standing there next to the president of finland, it appears to some, i've heard this, you can maybe corroborate it or say, no, it's not happening, that there's a level of paranoia within the president's behavior that heightens nearly every day in some zbleedegree. >> i think that is true. people inside the building and outside i'd havers, those he talks to most nights have expressed some concern. this is a president who feels like everyone's out to get him. he's always believed the democrats and the media and at deep state have conspired against him. now he's not sure who to trust in the building and that's leading to this agitation, this anger he has towards his staff where he feels they're not out there fighting for him. >> the vice president would love to distance himself from this and do his reagan head nod and

say i don't know what's going on here except for the fact he traveled on september the 1st to warsa warsaw, poland to meet with president zelensky and had he either the exact transcript or at the very least the summary of the phone call we've all talked about the phone call there's no way he would have none. >>. thing about it is, of course pence knew. and now what's happening is the president is gladly throwing him under the bus for this. the thing is, pence has this uncanny ability to when scandal happens in this administration, he hides under the table, that he comes out and said, oh, i didn't know what was going on. here's what we have to remember. pence's nsa adviser was -- national security adviser was on the call. >> yes, right. >> and also as you mentioned he was supposed to go to the inauguration for ukraine president and was told not to go. he's had a lot of conversation

with the ukraine government. of course he knew. and this time it's going to be very hard to put any daylight between this story and pence. he's just not going to be able to do it. >> and, lonny, this story just speaks to the extent to which the president has dispatched people in the government out to chase these stories around about joe biden or about corruption in the ukrainian government as they like to call it, whether it's william barr now traveling to italy to look into the origins of the mueller investigation or the state department mike pompeo traveling the world on behalf of the president, his vice president. the government seems to be consumed by what the president has on its mind. >> well, this is going to be the challenge for senior officials in the administration. certainly they have to balance executing on the president's agenda, which ultimately is part of their responsibility, it's what they're there for at some level with an understanding of the politics, but also of their responsibilities to the constitution and to citizens of

this country. i think you're seeing how that balance plays out in many different ways. now, certainly for the vice president's office i think there is a question here as i alluded to earlier of how much they sort of talk about being there for the president, being part of the president's team which clearly is very important, and trying to put some insulation there for the vice president just in case. and i think you're seeing a lot of that just in case type of behavior across government, which is sure to make the president pretty unhappy. >> that's almost an impossible dance to pull off. thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," after remaining on the fence about president trump's impeachment inquiry, one house democrat holdout now pledging his support for that cause. what changed his mind. max rose is with us live next on "morning joe." max rose is with us live next on "morning joe."

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it is something that i felt was imperative to upholding my oath. because the institutions of our democracy are the bones that hold the body up. and if we eat away at those bones, the body starts to collapse. i did this out of judicious and

thoughtful reflection and i did it because i believe that it was the right thing to do based on integrity on my oath of office. >> i will not shirk my duty and i will not violate my oath. i will support and i will defend the united states constitution. [ applause ] >> and it is for that reason that i intend to fully support this impeachment inquiry and follow the facts. we have got to the follow these facts where they lead us and where we find ourselves today, the president has no one to blame but himself. >> two freshman house democrats taking the impeachment fight to the communities they represent, michigan congresswoman elissa slotkin defended her position to support president trump's impeachment in her home district yesterday. her defense comes one day after two republicans announced challenges to her seat next november.

and new york congressman max rose who had been on the fence about pushing for an impeachment inquiry announced his decision, as you saw, at that town hall in staten island yesterday. congressman rose joins us now. he's a member of the house veterans affairs committees and he's a veteran of the war in afghanistan prosecutor and recipient of the bronze star and purple heart. good to see you this morning. >> thanks for having. >> he what knocked you off the fence on this? >> immediately when seeing this tissue was clear it was a grave national security crisis that we had to get to the bottom of. and in the process, what we saw over the last few days, though, was clear obstruction from this administration that led me to believe that we have got to elevate this to that of an impeachment inquiry. with that being said, i think it's important that we should note this is a really tragic day for the united states of the america. nobody who takes an oath to the constitution wants to be where we find ourselves to be right now. n i've taken an oath to the

contusion twice in my life. once enlisting in the military and the second time earlier this year when i became a united states congressman. i take it just as seriously now as did i then when i went to afghanistan. we've got to put politics aside, do the right thing and uphold the constitution, show the american people that even in the hard times question do what's right. >> speaker pelosi made that point over the last week. she said this is a sad day in america. when you take up an impeachment proceeding against any president. you talked about clear obstruction. you saw clear obstruction that be made you push towards supporting the impeachment inquiry what do you mean specifically? from the president, his public statements or something else? >> let's put the public statements aside for a second. the white house is clearly resisting any effort to divulge and give up information. secretary of state has said will not let state department officials meet with the committee, be interviewed by them. mayor giuliani, once america's mayor now america's hack lawyer said that he wants to sue congress.

it's clear that this is where we have to be right now. but while we're on a fact-finding mission, we're also engaging in an effort to earn and maintain the trust of the american people. and as a consequence, it is vital, absolutely vital that we don't -- the democratic caucus and congress as a whole, we don't jump to conclusions, we engage in a deliberate and reasonable and fair process that earns the trust of the american people. we can't sell impeach the mofo t-shirts any longer. we can't bring dhoing hearings hearings. we have to be solid and if question do that we can bring this country together in this process. >> this was not an easy choice for you because it's a heavy matter but also the district. staten island was the only burrow in new york that went for president trump and it wasn't close by 17 points in 2016. what was it like in the room

last night at that town hall? we heard some cheers but what are people saying? >> more broadly people in staten island are still trying to figure this situation out. and they also remain concerned with that, which americans are deeply concerned with. day to day bread and butter issues. you certainly mention mid political reality, probably no political expert out there would recommend dhie what i did yesterday. in fact, there are 19 house republicans, 19, who are in seats that donald trump won by less than what he won by seat by. so i would hope that eventually those 19 house republicans can show some semblance of political courage, some semblance of integrity and join this inquiry. >> the oath, i want to talk to you about the oath. you took it twice. >> yeah. >> once en route to kabul, once en route to washington. we have a president of the united states who tried to get a

foreign government, another foreign government to interfere in american politics on his behalf. talk about how the oath is more than just words. >> well, right now i think about the young men and women who are in harm's way wearing our nation's uniform. afghanistan, iraq, throughout the globe. what they're doing right now, that's a real sign of integrity, a real sign of courage. what i did yesterday it barely pales in comparison to them. so what we're doing right now is we're doing our job. and that's what the american people put us in office for. politics be damned. but let's also talk about politics for a brief moment. it's very clear politics 101, here's what the republicans are going to do going forward, here's what are donald trump are going to do going forward. he will try break the trust that the american people have in this investigation, the trust in adam schiff. and, two, they'll try to say, well they don't do anything. just investigations.

in fact, the president retweet aired video twice saying that just about me the other day. i wish we would put it on tv it was jump a lame video they deserve all the public press, the free press they can get. we've got point out all dho is investigations, investigations, investigations, not only has the democratic caucus passed substantive legislation in gun control, anticorruption and so many other issues that have been left to languish on mitch mcconnell's desk, let's not forget what the republican party did when they had the keys to the castle. they had the house, the senate, and the white house, the only thing they accomplished was a tax scam for the wealthiest amongst us and the largest corporation dollars. that corporations. that's what they're capable of. we're not going to listen to this crap. we are going to continue to serve the american people. >> congressman, in districts like yours that are very red districts like your district as we were just mentioning donald trump won by 17 points in 2016,

what should be the democrats' messaging on impeachment in those for you guys far those red districts in how should we message? >> my district is not a red district. it went for donald trump in 2016. it also went for me in 2018. what my district is the patriotic district. it wants to see people put the country first and it wants to see us finally get back to business serving the american people and upholding the constitution. they are sick and tired of rampant corruption in washington, d.c. you know what i often hear about this issue? this is five, six, seven days old. often hear it's clear that the president did something wrong, but doesn't everyone do that? didn't he just get caught? aren't we just being unfair to him? eventually we have to get at that. we have to get at the problem that the american people think that when people go to washington, d.c. they just serve themselves or they serve their families or their foundations or

whatever else it might be. and that's not just elected officials, that's corporate pacs, that's federal lobbyists, the entire swamp that donald trump said he wanted to drain and temperature only appears he has become a part of. we have to realign ourselves and focus on addressing this key concern of the american people. >> congressman briefly as the last question. you're on the homeland security committee. wanted to get you on two things about the border crisis. yesterday the administration announced it was looking to collect dna stafrms framples fr in custody to create a database that could lead to arrests and deportation and also the president wanting a moat with alligators on the border too? >> the president has repeatedly tried to politicize this issue. it's a clear thash not onissue around our security but our values what we're constantly presented with is this false choice. you can maintain your values,

the very values that built this country, the very values of being a magnet for the world's brightest, most dustouinindustr or you have hasecurity. we're capable of preserving our security and having a sound immigration system and doing it in a moral way. it's unfortunate the rhetoric that this president has used. it's unfortunate the ways in which they have attempted to implement harsh and xenophobic poll sthas have tried to rip us apart rather than bring us together. and i look forward to a new day in this country where when we can have truly comprehensive immigration reform, one that's moral and substantive. >> with alligators or without? >> zero alligators. >> just wanted to get you on record there. >> we still have to do a show on staten island. you promised me that a couple months ago. i have a firm commitment from "morning joe"? >> yes.

>> all right. >> what about traffic getting there? >> i know. >> that's the issueare the issu. >> he's working on that. the bridge. >> thank you so much for your time this morning. >> thanks so much. still ahead, 2020 candidate bernie sanders hospitalized for a blocked artery. we'll have the latest on his health and what it may mean for his presidential campaign. plus, elizabeth warren passion joe biden for the top spot. "morning joe's" coming back in a moment. spot. "morning joe's" coming back in a moment. ♪ (dramatic orchestra)

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president's anger as you saw spilled out in public view as the leader of finland looked on. plus, we'll be joined by former cia director john brennan who's calling for republicans in congress abandon trump now if they care about the country. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. re watchin" we'll be right back. >> the question, sir, was what do you want president zelensky to do about vice president bide end and his son hunter? >> are you talking to me. >> you talking to me? you talking to me? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance,

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finland is the happiest country in the world. what can you flelearn from finl. >> you get rid of pelosi and shifty schiff. finland got rid of shifty schiff. >> welcome back to "morning joe," it's thursday, october 3rd. joe and mika have the morning off. still with us, mike barnicle and an msnbc contributor karine jean tee, a. jonathan lemire, sam stein, and joining our conversation, fomer u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analysts, claire mccaskill, senior writer of "politico," jake sherman, an msnbc contributor and senior political correspondent for the washington examiner david drucker. he's also a contributing writer

at "vanity fair ". claire, i want to start with you as someone who sat in that body, the united states senate. what would you be thinking if you were not just a democratic senator but a republican senator watching the president yesterday? >> i think i'd be thinking about how the president's team is looking the other way rather than coming to his aid in assistance. you've got the vice president going what, me? no, i didn't know anything about them trying to smear his political opponent on an international stage. you've got pompeo not even admit egg w admiting he was on the call and now we've heard nothing but it was a perfect call there are was nothing wrong. those were to of his go-tos. he's got to be noticing this. so if you're a senator and you watch pence go, i didn't know anything about them trying to go after joe biden through the

ukrainian government, and you watch pompeo walking away from cameras and not being forthcoming about even being on the call, i think this not only does that add to the president's paranoia, i guarantee you it is adding to republican senators' paranoia. >> that was a trick question because i know what you're thinking about is the cards and braves at 5:00 this afternoon. >> i know. it's like our christmas in st. louis, the beginning of the playoffs today, 4:00 in st. louis times and barnes back in the lineup. >> there you go. house democrats say they're not fooling around when it comes to the ukraine scandal, party leaders threatening to send a subpoena tomorrow if the white house does not comply with the request for documents related to president trump's interactions with the president of ukraine. the chairman of the oversight intelligence and foreign affairs committee sent a letter in tandem yesterday demanding material related to president trump's july call with ukrainian president zelensky as well as

any attempts to conceal his purported actions. kurt volker, the former special u.s. envoy to ukraine who resigned last week after his name appeared in the whistleblower complaint will appear in capitol hill today in a private deposition before congressional investigators. part of house democrats impeachment inquiry volker will face questions about any role he may have played in the president's efforts to push ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president joe biden. so with all that as a backdrop, president trump lashed out yesterday against democrats in the media. he posted a tweet with profanity in it writing the do-nothing democrats should be focused on building up our country, not wasting everyone's time and energy on bs. he wrote the full word in twhic what they've been doing since i got overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306. get a better candidate that time, you'll need it. yesterday the president got into this exchange with reuters jeff

mace on. >> can you make clear right here what do you or what did you want president zelensky to do with regard to joe and hunter biden? >> what i was having a problem with are two things. number one, ukraine is known beforehand for tremendous corruption, tremendous. more than any punt in the world. >> what did you want about biden? >> look, biden and his son are stone cold crooked. >> the question, sir have what did you want president zelensky do about vice president biden and his son hunter? >> are you talking to me? >> yeah, it was just a follow-up of what i just asked you, zblir listen, you you ready? we have the president of finland, ask him a question. i've given you a long answer. ask this gentlemen a question. don't be rude. >> no, sir, i don't want to be rude i just wanted you to have a chance to answer the question that i've asked you. >> i've answered everything. it's a hoax. and you know who's playing into the hoax?

people like you anda the fake news media that we have in this country. and i say in many cases the corrupt media because you corrupt. >> so jake, before i get to you i want to point out once again the president was incorrect in how many electoral votes. he got 304 not 306. but i digress. jake, the president effectively and pretty specifically did not answer jeff mason's question there which is at the heart of the entire impeachment inquiry. >> first of all, let's go nats, beat l.a. that's the most important thing. the president's strategy here is a little bit worn out, according to all the republicans we talk to. jonathan lemire and i were talking about this before. but he's trying to employ the same tool he's used for the last two years and it's not been successful because he's dealing with a entirely new set of facts. an impeachment inquiry that is obviously extremely legitimate. congress has the right do this. we've heard him talk about the media like this before. we've heard him call people

crooked. we know he doesn't like democrats. we know all of these things and frankly it's not having much effect because we've heard it now for two years. and reporters are like jeff mason are getting wise to this and are moving on and rp standing up to the president and not cowering down when he bullies them, not that any reporter has before. but it's important to keep that in mind. so these tricks that he's employed for two years are not terribly successful and you hear all around washington the last couple weeks republicans are very concerned that this white house has no strategy. why does it have no strategy? two important things to keep in mind. number one, he has no surrogates that are willing to go on television to defend him. why is that? because they don't know where the bottom is. they don't know the entirety of the story because the president has not been forthright. people like rudy giuliani when they go on tv are roundly dismissed as a laughing stalk

because their behavior is so bizarre. lawmakers won't go on tv because they don't want to stand up for the president that the moment when they don't know anything. he didn't have a white house press operation that's not standard, it's not operational. lemire can talk about this more, but we don't have a white house press secretary that's praptional in tpraption operational in the sense that they're not briefing and doing anything proactive to change the narrative of this story or combat it. it's just incredibly bizarre to see all this lineup of circumstances that the white house is unwilling or unable to change. and that, in the face of an impeachment inquiry that's getting more and more serious, democrats are saying that stonewalling is going to have consequences in that it could be evidence for obstruction and the president has no strategy to hand this will, that we see, in the public view. >> and david drucker, jake gets what you're writing about. trump tweets overwhelm gop

impeachment defense. it's been reported and people i've talked to around the president say they were not enthralled with the performance of kevin mccarthy on 60 minutes the other night. that was one guy who was willing to go out in front of 12 million people and the president didn't think he was strong enough in the president's defense, which gets to the reason many republicans don't want to go on tv to defend the president. >> yeah. look, it's a very difficult thing to try to defend the president when you don't really know what the message is and you don't know what he's going to say that you're going to have to talk about and try to defend. what's interesting here with this is of all of the president's hiccups and scandals that we've seen over the past couple years that often send republicans scurrying, i've seen so far the least amount of anxiety when it comes to impeachment. the issue of what's in the transcript of the call is very serious, but republicans feel pretty comfortable for now that they can defend this on the grounds that it's not impeachable. but when the president

freelances the way he does, it gets in the way of republicans' ability to present a unified front. they've actually been trying to do this in an organized manner. they've been issuing talking points, even the white house has been issuing talking points. talking points will focus on trying to undermine impeachment based on the constitution, the facts, the law. and the president doesn't really do much of that. he makes it personal, he makes it about him, he does it in his typical provocative ways. one of the reasons this is difficult is because unlike the russia investigation which became a special counsel matter and there was a limited role for congress to play during that time, impeachment is strictly about congress and congressional procedures. >> there's also the -- sorry, dan. mike, i was going to say there's also the possibility they don't know which way the president's going to go so they don't want to go on tv to defend him. but there's also the possibility that his conduct is indefensible and they don't want to do that on television. >> it's hard to defend someone

who appears on tv as unhinged as he appeared to be yesterday. but, claire, with regard to the impeachment proceedings that the democrats are running in the house of representatives, what's your level of concern, if any, that given the nuggets that appear in this process each and every day through the news, that it might become too broad in its scope and lose track of the specific objective? >> well, i think there's two dangers. i think it being two broad and also dragging on. i know they've got to depose witnesses and they're in the process of doing that now. and the white house is going to try to drag it out. and, frankly, dragging it out may lessen the impact in the daily news cycle, but not as long as the president is doing what he's doing. it's going to up the ante every single day by him being so unhinged and out of control. so i think they do have to stay focused on this ukraine issue, they do have to stay focused on

the pore larizatilarization of department. i think the documents delivered yesterday to the hill showing rudy giuliani using trump's stationery sending directly to the secretary of state, ridiculous accusations against a career diplomat in order to, like, hatch this plan and execute this ridiculous plan. so i think they've got to stay focused tho focused on this ukraine episode and go as quickly as they can or it will begin to lessen its impact because people get so worn out with this guy. you just get won fricking out. >> there's no question the president's isolation has been real, and that's fueling some of the rage that we saw yesterday. jake, question for you. the republicans in the senate have been absent. they haven't been around. we heard from mcconnell the other day briefly but for the most part they've been quiet not rush together president's defense even if they're back home. why have republican senators

been so quiet and how uncomfortable will it be for some of them facing tough re-election fights when they come back to washington in a week or so? >> it's going to be uncomfortable because it's not a scandal that's narrow or a scandal that's narrowing in scope, it's ballooning taking in the secretary of state, democrats want to talk to the secretary of energy, it's taking in the vice president. this is, again, not a situation that's confined to the president of the united states who, if on truth serum as claire knows, republicans privately will say they don't care much for, although they understand he's popular with their base. so i think it's going to be extremely uncomfortable and then you'll you have the question of how people will vote, if they'll vote at all, how they'll handle the trial in the senate. so it's going to be uncomfortable because this is not a situation where there's a pool spray everyday. capital is an open place where reporters roam free and people have microphones stuck in their

face every day. as everyone pointed out so far, we don't know how the president's going to handle anything, we don't know the truth. so it's impossible to defend, as mr. drucker said, it's impossible to defend the president when you don't know where he's going in any way, shape, or form. >> let me just add, this is sam. let me add one point here. we're talking about the unease republicans have. when this initially came out, the complaint and more specifically the transcript, the modified transcript of the phone call, the common refrain from republicans was that there was no quid pro quo. that puts them in a bit of a bind if upon further discovery there is an actual quid pro quo that was explicitly offered or demanded by president trump. keep many mind we don't have the full transcript of the call. so there is the possibility that republicans have already put themselves through the too much. and my question to david here is, you know, they might be more comforted if they were getting

guidance from the administration and from the president and the white house itself about what actually is the scope of the scandal? whether there is more there there in the transcript and what lawmakers might be able to find out vis-a-vis discovery, witness depositions and so on. but are they getting that guidance from the white house that could sooth their concerns and allow them to go out there and be better surrogates for the president? >> i feel like the problem isn't so much that they're not getting some formal guidance from the white house, the problem is that the president goes off script. you're right to point out the quid pro quo aspect of this, because that's the bar republicans have set for deeming the impeachment inquiry legitimate or not. they are, though, interestingly enough, particularly in the senate, not so much in the house yet, but in the senate they are very uncomfortable with the ask that the president made of mr. zelensky to look into biden. that was the heart of jeff mason's question and that continues to be the heart of the impeachment inquiry. republicans were telling me on the record last week they

wouldn't have done it if it were them. they were trying to explain that it wasn't really what it sounded like. and so that continues to bother them. and i don't think in this case, despite the lack of a formal clinton-like war room with directives shooting out every five minutes, it's not so much that there isn't a formal agreement about how to attack the impeachment inquiry, it's that the president doesn't follow his own script. what these republicans are watching and what everybody needs to watch if you want to understand the politics of this, is where are swing voters and independents? because we know that republican voters most likely are going to stick in their corner. we know how democratic voters feel about the president. it's the swing voters and independents that have been wary of impeachment regardless of how they feel about the president that are going to turn this thing one way or the other and make it either very uncomfortable for republicans or give them the confidence to continue to defend the president publicly. >> and i can just add one thing here? which is, you know, on the question of what's impeachable

and what isn't, it's obviously an extremely vague thing, right? impeachable is not defined. it's high crimes and misdemeanors. is it high crimes for the white house to provide basically nothing that congress is seeking in this investigation? democrats make the case adam schiff, nancy pelosi did yesterday that that is impeachable and nixon was impeached on that. so we have precedent that not providing documentation for an investigation is an impeachable offense. and there's almost no question that the white house is stonewalling congress and not providing documents and relevant witnesses to participate in this investigation. so, again, this is -- that behavior we know to be impeachable based on precedent and we'll have to see if the white house decided on a new strategy. we have no evidence they will, that involves participating in some way with an impeachment inquiry which they have not participated in any oversight in this congress. >> and house democrats say subpoenas on their way to the white house tomorrow if they don't get those documents and

those witnesses. thank you both. coming up next on "morning joe," former cia director john brennan says president trump deserves impeachment, conviction, and ouster from office. and as we go to break, 60 minutes with kevin mccarthy. >> what do you make of this exchange. president zelensky says we are almost ready to buy more jav linz from the united states for defense purposes and president trump is he please, i would like you do us a favor, though. >> you just added another word. >> no, it's in my transcript. >> i would like you do doh me a favor, though? >> yeah, it's in the white house transcript. >> when i read the transcript, president zelensky brings up a javelin say protection for antitank, something that president obama would not sell. that president trump did to protect ukraine. >> how do you expect the president's defense to roll out going forward?

>> the defense of what? >> well, there's an impeachment inquiry. >> there's an impeach inquiry going forward. it probably never would move forward had the speaker waited 48 hours to have the transcript. maria ramirez? hi.

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mr. president -- >> no republican have race raised concern. >> about the whistleblower that the identity of the whistleblower should be protected. >> i don't care. look, i think a whistleblower should be protected. if the whistleblower's legitimate. he either got totally wrong, made it up, or the person giving the information to the whistleblower was dishonest. and that country has to find out what that person was, because that person's a spy, in my opinion. >> a spy. the president of the oval office yesterday. joining us now, former cia director john brennan. and in washington, former d.o.d. official, now an msnbc national security analyst eflin farkas.

good morning to you both. i want to ask you a question about adam schiff. the chairman of the house intel committee learned about the whistleblower's complaint against president trump days before it was officially filed. according to the "new york times," setting a spokesman for adam schiff along with current and former officials, the cia officer, whistleblower, approached an intel committee aid with his concerns about the president only after first having a colleague relayed him to the cia's top lawyer. the times says the officer approached the aide after having been concerned about the initial investigations was unfolding. it goes on to say the house staff member following the committee's procedures suggested officer find a lawyer to advise and meet with an inspector general with whom he could file an official whistleblower complaint. so, mr. director, let me ask you about the way this was handled based on what you're reading in these media reports, based on

what chairman schiff has said, was there any wrongdoing in the steps that were tieng get aken this whoiistleblower to file hi or her complaint. >> it makes sense for them to go to a lawyer to make sure how they go to the process. and according to the reports, that lawyer then talked to the cia's general counsel. i don't know if that is the case or not. but these types of things should be kept very, very closely held. and it's my understanding that there is no reason at all for notification to be done to the white house or to the department of justice. you want to make sure it stays in those channels, you get that legal advice, and then it can be forwarded either through the inspector general channels or the congressional committees. >> the president appears yesterday and some of his reporte reporters to think has a smoking gun that adam schiff

orchestrated this with the whistleblower. adam schiff says he came to us, he came to a member of our staff and we said go back and file an official report. do you see anything wrong with the way the chairman and the intel committee handle the whistleblower? >> again, i don't know the circumstances here, but i would think that the whistleblower who wants to get this information to congress, if he or she feels as though they are being prevented from doing that, they're going to seek guidance from either lawyers, as well as from a congressional committee. i want to get you something, how can i do it? if the guidance was submit it to the office the dni's inspector general, i think that's particularly appropriate and in this case think the right course of action. >> on the schiff matter i spoke to someone close to the president yesterday who used that language smoking gun i think we acknowledged they're overstating it. but this is an attempt like they did so often in the russia investigation to take something. schiff had to correct his comments what he said on this show a few weeks ago that he didn't speak exactly as he wanted 'the they're going to try to seize this as an attempt to

mud dit muddy the waters. this will be something we'll hear about in the days ahead. >> john, yesterday i was speaking to a former employ employee of yours about what was in the document that we've all read now. is there a policy of how that should be handled? it was septembnt to the white h what's the policy? >> the policy is to make sure you keep it within close channels. it's my understanding there is no policy for the white house to be informed, especially since the white house officials are implicated in this. that's why what the person needed to do was to get it into the system without going down to the white house department of justice, get it down to the congressional committees.

so, again, i don't know what happened inside of that, but the general counsel is a political appointee of mr. trump and so i don't know whether or not that general counsel was informed and then decided, you know, take it upon herself to notify people. >> were you surprised fwi? >> weby it. >> i was surprised where they were informed about this whistleblower complaint in advance of it getting to the inspector general and then getting down to the congressional committees. it is totally out of sequence. >> so, again, you were the director of the cia. you're not aware of any policy that says you have to alert the white house when something like this comes across the general counsel's desk. >> i am aware that there is no such poll. >> i dr. farkas, way tonight ask you about kurt volker who will be testifying behind closed doors today, resigned just a few days ago. remind our viewers why he's a significant figure and, number two, i understand you have some reporting on what he might tell congress today? >> yeah. so first of all i've known kurt

for many years. he's a very well-respected diplomat in washington, d.c. he started as a career diplomat. he heads the mccain institute here in washington. affiliated with arizona state university. he is important because he took a job kind of a part-time job working for the trump administration as the president's envoy to ukraine. mostly what that job meant was that he was responsible for working with the russians and with the ukrainians to try to tamp down the very hot war in eastern ukraine. and that's separate from crimea, which is as we know under russian okccupation. so kurt has been trying to do keep things on an evil keel. may even keel. and that's been his role. and some where along the line as we know from the transcript of the phone call, the president wanted rudy giuliani to be put in touch with ukrainian officials in kiev and kurt got

involved. he got involved as we know from rudy giuliani's text messages, he put rudy giuliani in touch with some ukrainians. beyond that's, we don't really know. those are the facts that kurt has to lay out today when he goes to give a deposition to the house intelligence committee. and i guess it's a joint investigation. so what i expect, knowing the man, is that he will cooperate completely and, you know, he resigned from that position which was the first indication that he probably would cooperate. the white house can no longer put any pressure on him nor account state department. and so he's going to come and tell his account of what happened. my guess is that he was -- if to the extent that he understood that there was something nefarious that rudy giuliani may have been plan hearing with the president wror ha planning here with the president, he would have been trying to curtail the damage. he kales about democracy in russia and ukraine.

>> so rudy giuliani posted the text and made those public. rudy giuliani is the one who connected him to ukrainian officials. karine. >> i wanted to ask you, do you think we will ever get the full transcript of the ukraine call that the president had with the president of ukraine? >> well, there is no recording, as far as i know, unless the policy in the white house has change. but there are individuals who simultaneously tribe the word simultaneously tran scribe the words. looking at what was released, that looks like it was something other than what was contemporaneously transcribed that the time. i don't know if we'll be able to get there but there is more that at least at one point was there. >> claire mccaskill as a question for you. claire. >> let's back up and look what's going on to the intelligence community in america. let me start by saying everyone needs toe realize the majorities of people who work in the intelligence community are either veterans or even a lot of active military. and obviously when you have paul

manafort and carter page playing ftse wi footsy with russia, we would expect the intelligence community to take notice. what you have now is lindsey graham and the attorney general of the united states basically asking our allies to investigate our against community. that's a startling development. isolated it would be shocking. in this mess, it's not as shocking because people are not paying close attention to it. talk about the impact this is going to have on our intelligence community long term and what they're feeling within the community right now as the president and important people in this country have turned the light and tried to say somehow they're the bad guys. >> yeah, claire think there you're absolutely right. i believe that this has hurt the morale within the intelligence community. these are women and men who sacrifice a great deal and their families as well. and if they see that mr.

president trump is continuing to denigrate and des pair rapair rr work and try to undermine what was the assessment from them, i think it sends a disparaging signal to the intelligence community. but what do the foreign intelligence services as well as governments take away from this? that the u.s. intelligence community could not be trusted. are they now going to stop the cooperation with the intelligence community because of what mr. trump is doing? we rely, the u.s. intelligence community, relies heavily on the cooperation of intelligence security services around the globe. and if it looks as though the intelligence community is not being trusted by the administration, how does that then affect our work and the word of the intelligence community? when u.s. policymakers want to take some type of action overseas and they point to u.s. intelligence, if that u.s. intelligence is being undermined by the words of mr. trump, how,

then, can the international community put stock in that? it has i think long term damaging effects. >> ev rerelin, we heard him jok about vladimir putin in the election of 2020, we heard him joke sarcastically telling him not do it with no teeth behind it. as we're talking about the president to use his electoral powers to dig up dirt on joe biden, how concerned should americans be that nothing has been done to safeguard the elections from an outside power to try to meddle yet again? >> we should be very concerned. i mean, that's the bigger picture here. russian government is still trying to weaken our democracy. they are loving this. they are benefiting first and

foremost from all of. from the smear on ukraine, which in part probably came from them. i mean, someone's feeding rudy giuliani a lot of this garbage information. and i believe those people are close to the kremlin even if they're ukrainian. so the kremlin is benefitting from that. and then of course they're also benefit even from this impeachment e impeachment because it's creating a mess in our democracy. we can expect them to continue to use whatever disinformation to try to spy on us and take the information out of campaigns and put it out in the public. all the dirty tricks have not stopped. >> putin literally was laughing about it yesterday in russia with in an interview with our keir simmons. thank you all for being here this morning. still ahead, we're bringing in a new panel to talk 2020. we're look at new polling that shows joe biden and elizabeth warren locked in a tight race for the democratic nomination. and as we go to break, a look at the latest issue of

"time" magazine. the story of kamala harris and where her presidential campaign stands. "morning joe" is back in a moment. stands. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) performance comes in lots of flavors. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪ for adults with moderately to severely active crohn's disease,

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. welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful picture of the white house. it's 7:38 in the morning. 2020 presidential candidate bernie sanders was hospitalized tuesday for a blocked artery after he felt chest discomfort during a campaign event. sanders, who is 78 years old, under went a major medical procedure to insert two stents. his explain released a statement wrietding, quote, senator sanders is conversing and in good spirits. he'll be resting up in the next few days. we are canceling his events until further notice and we'll continue to provide appropriate updates. he is doing well and he's tweeting thanks for all the well wishes, i'm feeling good. i'm fortunate to have good healthcare and great doctors and nurses helping me recover. none of us know when a medical emergency might affect us and no one should fear going bankrupt if it occurs. medicare for all. we essential are sending our

very best to senator sanders for a speedy recovery. look forward to getting him back out on the trail. as for the race for the nomination, a new monmouth university national poll has massachusetts senator elizabeth warren at the top of the 2020 field with 28% of democratic voters. up eight points since august. joe biden follows in second place at 25%, up six points. both remain within the almost five-point margin of error, they are effectively tied. warren and biden are in a dead heat in new hampshire according to the latest poll. only one point separates the two as they poll within the five-point mar given error, 25, 24. but 57% of voters say their choice could change between now and election day. 43% say their pick is locked in. joining us now, politics and journalism professor at morgan state university, politics editor at the root and msnbc political contributor jason

johnson, former chief of staff and a former director of strategic communication for hillary clinton's presidential campaign, adrienne elrod. also, marina is with us. she is the national director of indivisible, a nationwide movement of thousands of volunteer-led local groups that engage in progressive advocacy. and, the host of msnbc's politics nation, president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton is reverend al sharpton day. happy birthday, my friend. >> happy birthday. >> i asked you how old you were and you said simply you were in mike barnicle's generation. >> i'm happy to say i'm 65 today. >> i say is happily because there was sometimes in my career dint think i'd make 25. but i thank god i made it to 65 and i'm enjoying it tonight. spike lee and sammy jackson and others are having a big party for me. i woke up this morning and seen

a tweet and former president obama sent a video in for the party. it's a great birthday for me starting my morning. >> that sounds exactly like my birthday, spike lee throwing me a party. >> happy birthday to you. we're glad you're here on your birthday. let's give you the first word on what's going on with the d dynamics of this poll. >> first all of, we have senator sanders in our prayers. i think it showed a real measure of leadership when he used it as an opportunity to also push his policy medicare for all. but i think it's undeniable, elizabeth warren has a momentum, is showing real traction, and i ab served ov observed over the month the growth in her candidacy because she's remained cool yet calm and passionate at the same time. it's going to be interesting to see how long she maintains this

momentum. if, in fact, sanders being ill becomes a political factor, it could benefit her because her politics and his are very similar and it could also raise the question of age, which is should not because up against ageism particularly today, but it could raise that issue which could be problematic for biden and trump. people keep for getting trump is 73, 74 years old. and i think that we've got to see the ramifications of what happens in reaction to this. i'll never forget when they blew out of proportion hillary clinton supposedly passing out. you never know the politics of these things, even though we hope that it doesn't poison our concern for their health. >> jason, it's jonathan lemire. certainly i agree with the reverend, senator sanders health is most important. but if he is sidelined for a while, that could include the debate in the next two weeks which could be a significant thing. setting that aside for the moment, we see senator warn with

this momentum. we're not seeing that much momentum from senator harris. she's on the cover of "time" magazine which we just teased a moment ago. why has she stalled? at a certain point don't you have to turn dollars into support? what is she missing right now? >> it's weird because this would be under almost any other circumstances a fantastic week for senator harris. she did decent in her fundraising, not fantastic. she got one of the best response dollars by anybody on "snl" last week. that's a real thing. when you are characterized well on saturd"saturday night live,t means you're in the public consciousness and she gets the cover of "time" magazine. but this has always been her challenge. she's basically the marco rubio of this race. everybody likes her in theory, lots of people think that she checks a lot of boxes and demographics, but the reality say lot of democratic primary voters are afraid. they're afraid of pushing back against what donald trump

represents. they believe that voting for an african-american woman after barack obama to go against donald trump might be pushing the midwestern states for conservatives too far. i think she's had difficulty convincing people that she has a pathway to victory, it's resulted in a lot of her supporters sort of educated white women, educated white men moving to elizabeth warren who they think is more possible. harris is always, in my view from the polling numbers, maintained this middle ground. but now she's pretty much tied with maybuttigieg, and she can' explain why she can't move forward. >> first, well wishes to senator bernie sanders if he's watching please get well soon and we're all think of you clearly here today. adrienne, my question is about i wanted to continue the conversation about the q3 numbers. we saw bernie sanders numbers which were incredibly impressive and makes sense because of that grass-roots movement that he has.

we saw pete buttigieg who did pretty well, and we saw harris as jason just mentioned. but we haven't heard from the two big front runners, which is joe biden and elizabeth warren. so i wanted to kind of get your thoughts on that. i think joe biden's campaign said the numbers were not -- their numbers were not going to come out until october 15th, which seems odd to me but wanted to throw that question to you. >> yeah. i completely agree with you. it's sort of surprising to me that we have not heard from elizabeth warren and joe biden yet. you will recall that elizabeth warren waited a couple days until after the first round of canned indicates releascandidatr numbers in q2 and she blew people out of the water. a lot of those were in small dollar donations which is what you want. but joe biden's campaign is not releasing his numbers until october 15th, which is when they actually post online, they became available to the public. that does make me wonder what that means. i mean, does it mean that he still raised a lot of money but a lot of those are from max out

donors or donors who are giving over a thousand dollars? it probably -- i mean, again, who knows, right? but i have to think that it's probably not the best news or maybe he is not, you know, his numbers don't compare to some of the other candidates in the race. but i also want to say something else on fundraising numbers. i think this is an important point to look at as we're starting to assess the field going into the fall, going, you know, 15 1/2, 16 weeks away from the iowa caucuses. i think the fundraising numbers that candidates are raising right now are almost as important as the poll numbers. because as you see candidates like mayor pete raise $19 million this quarter, bernie sanders raise the $25 million, these are the people that are going to be able to go further into the race who are going to be able to have dynamic campaigns and super tuesday states, who are going to be able to have very well thought out delegate strategies in those states. delegate rich states like texas, california, those states are on super tuesday.

and joe biden's campaign put out a story saying we're investing a lot of resources now in super tuesday states. mayor pete's campaign has been building an operation in some of these states for a long time in the is not just about the first early states. this is about having the fuel go the whole way. that's why i think looking at these fundraising numbers right now is very important. >> hey, senator mccaskill, this is sam stein here. you famously in 2018 saw the promise that obama had as a candidate and took a risk fundamentally endorsing him over hillary clinton. there's no obama in this field and i don't think anyone is talking about that. but i'm wondering if you see some parallels in terms of the momentum that elizabeth warren has right now against a more establishment alternative in joe biden and how she's ticked up in the polls? and i wonder if you foresee a future in which some senators like you in 2008 zdecide that

they want to do cast their lot with her despite angering the biden team? >> there's something that was prevalent then which was two united states senators. in this race there's a lot of senators running. think the senators have a good kb excuse to keep their powders dry because so many of their colleagues are still working at this, including bernie sanders. and while we want to keep him in that group, his number was amazing. 25 million say meiis amazing fo somebody that's been written off by a lot of folks in the media. the fact he has that grassroots support, that's all grassroots stuff, that means he's going to be able to organize. to adrienne's point, there's a reason that the biden campaign is waiting until the 15th. it's all very strategic. it's either that that's the day of debate and they want it to be a big story going into the

debate, or they want it to be buried by what goes on at the debate. one of the two. and we just don't know which one it is. the more interesting question is where's elizabeth warren's number? she should be competing with bernie sanders on this grassrootsstuff. her contribution, her average contribution should be down there like bernie's, below $25. did she do as well as bernie? and that really is the fight that's going on right now. she went up 8 points in the monmouth poll but biden went up six. this is a horse race between people who are known very well verses somebody perceived as a fighter, who is more of an outsider. i don't know yet how it is all going to come down. i know as long as she is considered the front-runner she will have more incoming, there will be a lot more negative -- it is just the nature of the beast. it will be forced on her. so we will see how she withstands the pressure of being a front-runner. >> and as you say, bernie will have the money to stay around as long as he decides he wants to

stay around. maria, you can talk broadly about the race but i want to ask you specifically on your read on how impeachment plays into the 2020 contest. we had max rose, a democrat from staten island, on the show a little earlier. he is a democratic, and he made the tough decision to support the impeachment. he had a town hall last night, he made the announcement and everyone rolled their eyes and wanted to talk about the traffic on the verrazzano bridge. how does this impact the campaign? >> when we look at the august recess actually we had hundreds of activists take to local congressional districts and get involved in the impeachment conversation and continue it. if you look back to last summer actually, indivisible and our network of activists have been engaged in this conversation and trying to create more space around this issue and expecting accountability coming out of congress on this white house. so i do think that it does have the potential to bring more folks in. we are seeing the public polling

going, you know, almost ten points up in a week among voters, and so we want to continue to tap into that increase but also realize that we think there's a potential there that when we are all united in this fight on accountability and in defense of our constitution that we believe it is actually going to be a winner for our base, that it is going to motivate our base and help contribute to our historic turnout. but we also want to make sure as we confront this, that we are still talking about all of the other issues that face families and folks who are hurting and we want to make sure our candidates are still talking about those issues as well. >> clearly those are the ones voters are most concerned about. reverend sharpton, what is your read on this? obviously joe biden is at the center of this conversation about ukraine, about impeachment. the story is about him really. how does it factor into the race? >> i think the danger is that you get some kind of collateral damage just being part of the scandal story, and joe biden has clearly not done anything wrong,

that was clearly off the table when the issue was raised. but the fact that his name is in the middle of it is dangerous, which is why i think he came out blasting yesterday. i would hope though that the democrats -- and that's why i was very interested in what maria said because i'm still a guy on the ground, we just finish the national action network midwest conference, people on the ground are not as focused on impeachment as the everyday issues. i hope the democrats do not become so overcharged on impeachment they forget infrastructure and criminal justice. we just had a big case in dallas that no candidate even talked about. we cannot miss the forest for the trees. >> jason johnson, what is your view on impeachment in the 20 race? >> i have to mention that julian castro and beto o'rourke tweeted about it. >> but the top tier candidates did not, is what i should have

said. >> that's true. impeachment, if you talk to the average person impeachment is separate from the 2020 election. impeachment is something they think congress is handling, right. when congress goes through the process, people will pay attention, they may ask their local congress person but they don't associate it with joe biden, elizabeth warren or kamala harris. i think if we get to a point where impeachment goes to the senate perhaps it could benefit harris, booker or warren, if we have a trial where they get to play a prominent role, but it shouldn't have that much impact on the campaign. i thought this for half a second. the reality is that the ukrainian scandal is basically because donald trump is shook by joe biden. he is terrified by joe biden. you would think the scandal would help biden in the numbers you about it hasn't affected him wore or another. >> thank you all for being with us this morning. we appreciate it. >> absolutely. >> coming up, the president is awake and tweeting this morning, posting a homoment ago, house

intel committee chief lying schiff is a disaster for our country. we'll talk more intel committee when we come right back. ♪ new pasta and grill combos starting at $9.99. only at applebee's. but dad, you've got allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. are you in good hands?

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the whistle-blower was wrong. the only thing that matters is the transcript of the actual conversation that i had with the president of ukraine. >> yes, all that matters is the transcript. the transcript where the president of ukraine asks for missiles and you say, i would like you to do us a favor though. it is like the scoobie doo villain saying, i would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for me releasing this signed confession. here, i'll rip off my own mask. >> i had a transcript done by very talented people, word for word, comma for comma, done by people that do it for a living.

we had an exact transcript. >> okay. let's take a look at this exact transcript and see what the talented people wrote. right on the first page it says, not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. >> now i get three days of peace and i'm walking into the united nations, going to meet with the biggest leaders in the world and i hear about the word impeachment. i said, what did i do now? >> well, it is good to know, it is good to know even you can't keep track of your crimes. but why -- way ahead of me. here's my problem with what he just said, why did you get three days of peace? that's not fair. >> nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like, you know, she has to approve it. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take 'em, like their cookies. >> yes, they are like cookies

because that's the way your presidency crumbles. >> that's stephen colbert last night. it is thursday, october 3rd. irm 'willie geist. joe and mika have the morning off. we have mike barnacle, move on advisor and msnbc contributor careen jean-pierre. jonathan lemire. politic editor, sam stein, and director of policy studies at stanford university and research fellow at hoover institution. >> mike barnacle. walk me through his day yesterday, sitting at the side of the president of the united states for two press gatherings that were astonishing. >> it was an interesting afternoon for the president of finland. if you look at him closely you can see as we saw from hanoi

several decades ago the international sos sign as he is blinking, basically saying, you know, how quickly can i get dulles to get out of here. i mean what a totally awkward situation. >> and the one moment president trump was asked about finland, what do you think about finland, he said something along the line, well, they got rid of nancy pelosiy and shifty schiff. he couldn't zero in on that one moment. jonathan lemire, joking aside, is there anybody inside the white house, your sources you talk to every day, who recognize what happened yesterday was -- what's a polite word? bizarre. >> what you saw yesterday was a president alone. this is someone who has no formal impeachment war room. he has very few republicans willing to go on television to defend him. he has an invisible press secretary and there's an extraordinary amount of pressure on him building day and day as the recognition of what a lethal threat to his presidency this story is and the impeachment is. basically what we saw yesterday was how he has acted in private for the last week, angry at his

staff, angry at aides, angry at anyone he can talk to, and that rage burst into the public yesterday. some of that steam, of course, he has been letting off on twitter all along, but what we saw in the two events, first in the oval office and later in the surreal press conference next to the poor president of finland, was his pure rage at the predicament he's in because at the moment he doesn't see anyway out. >> you know, we are down to, at least according to my source, down to very few members of the staff. it is very thinned out around the president. but what is the temperature of the staff? i'm told that they are increasingly frustrated and angry at their boss, the president. >> that's true. when this story first broke there is an element of like, okay, here is another bad news story but we had a bunch of these before, we got through those including the mueller probe. there's an anticipation they will again. what has happened though is they've seen this is an administration that is flailing. very few powerful voices left in the room, including the acting

chief of staff mick mulvaney who seems not interested at all in reining in the president. there's anger that the president and rudy guilliani and others continue to make the situation worse. there doesn't seem to be worse and there seems to be growing legal exposure for anyone in the building. >> through the sound and furry of the press conference yesterday when he was asked what did you want president zelensky to do about joe biden, he wouldn't answer that. we begin with a "politico" tracking poll which shows american support for impeachment hitting a new high. 46% of voters say congress should begin impeachment proceedings to remove president trump. that's up 3 points since last week. 43% say they've against it. the country is split here. 58% of voters say they believe trump committed an impeachable offense. 38% say the president has proven he is unfit to serve and should be removed from office. as for the latest developments surrounding the impeachment inquiry, house democrats plan to

subpoena the white house tomorrow. if they do not comply with the request for documents related to president trump's interactions with ukraine, the chairman of the oversight intelligence and foreign affairs sent a letter in tandem yesterday demanding material related to trump's july call with ukraine's president as well as any attempts to conceal his purported actions. top democrats re-i.iterated the attempt in a newen conference afterwards. >> we place ourselves in a time of urgency on the threat to the constitution and we see the actions of the president being an assault on the constitution. >> we're not from around here. they just need to know that even as they try to undermine our inability to find the facts around the president's effort to coerce a foreign leader to create dirt that he can use against a political opponent, that they will be strengthening the case on obstruction. >> more on chairman schiff and

the whistle-blower in a moment. meanwhile, kurt volker, the former u.s. special envoy to ukraine that resigned last week after his name appeared in the whistle-blower complaint about president trump's dealing with ukraine, will appear on capitol hill today in a private deposition. he is expected to testify before congressional investigators as part of house democrat's impeachment inquiry where he will face efforts about any role he may have played in trump's effort to push ukrainian officials to investigate former vice president biden. volker has confirmed he put an adviser for ukraine's president in contact with the president's personal lawyer, rudy guilliani, and guilliani said he was in contact with volker. amid all of that the president lashed out against democrats and the media a number he have times yesterday. he posted a tweet writing the do nothing democrats should be focused on building up our country, not wasting everyone's time and energy on bs, although

he wrote the word, which is what they've been doing since i was overwhelmingly elected in 2016, 223-306. get a better candidate this time, you will need it, wrote the president. yesterday afternoon president trump got into this heated exchange with reuters white house reporter jeff mason but never answered the question. >> sir, what did you want president zelensky to do about vice president biden and his son hunt sner. >> are you talking to me? >> yes, it is a follow up of what i just asked. >> listen, are you ready? we have the president of finland, ask him a question. >> i have one for him. i just want to follow up on the one i asked you, which is -- >> did you hear me? >> yes. >> ask him the question. i have given you a long answer, ask this gentleman a question. don't be rude. >> no, sir, i don't want to be rude. i just wanted you to have a chance to answer the question i asked you. >> i answered everything. it is a whole hoax and you know who is playing into the hoax? people like you and the fake news media. i saw schiff trying to go 15 -- call him shifty schiff.

we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. he is a shifty, dishonest guy. he should sign from office in disgrace and, frankly, they should look at him for treason. biden and his son are stone-cold crooked and you know it. nancy pelosi hands out subpoenas like -- you know she has to approve it. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. you want a subpoena? here you go, take 'em, like their cookies. >> they've been trying to impeach me from the day i got elected. i have been going through this for three years. >> believe it or not, i watch my words very carefully. there are those that think i'm a very stable genius. okay. i watch my words very, very closely. >> so, careen, through all of the smoke screen, all of the noise, there's one central question at the center of all of this and at the center of the impeachment inquiry and i will quote jeff mason of reuters, mr. president, can you just make clear right now what did you want president zelensky to do

regarding joe and hunter biden. >> right. >> in that long exchange where the president went off talking about, you know, money that we give or we give too much money to ukraine or they're not corrupt and rob portman was celebrating them. he never answered that question. >> right, because we all know the answer. he has already admitted to it. it is clear as day. we saw it in the whistle-blower's report. we saw it from the readout from the call. we all know, this is why it is resonating with people because it is a clear-cut case. this is why we're seeing the polling moving so quickly on this. it has only been ten days. it is not a drip, drip, drip with the polling. it is a really steady flow. look, what we're seeing from the president is someone who is drowning in his lies. that is exactly what is happening, and what he is doing is he can't focus on anything else. he is just focusing 100% on conspiracy theories. this is where this president is right now because he is desperate. he knows impeachment is coming his way. we're in an impeachment inquiry

but he knows impeachment is coming his way. look, bill clinton was able to survive impeachment because he focused on the job. donald trump is just digging himself deeper and deeper every time he speaks, every time he tweets. he makes that job of democrats much easier and he makes it harder for republicans. >> sam stein, when jeff mason put the question to the president which, again, is sort of the nut of everything we are talking about right now, he had a tantrum. he didn't want to answer the question. he yesterday at him and told him to respect the president of finland, ask a question, told him not to be rude, anything but answer the question. >> yeah. kudos to jeff for standing his ground there and asking it three times. three times trump had the opportunity to answer the question and he didn't. to karine's point we know the answer. the answer has been stated for weeks and known really for months. they were in ukraine trying to dig up dirt on joe biden. that's why this controversy is

so existential, it is so simple in some ways. we understand how drum used the machinery of government to advance the domestic political agenda. no matter how much he wants to lash out, it is not going to change the basic facts. so, yes, it is a remarkable thing and a troubling thing, frankly, to watch the president of the united states have a tantrum like that and not be able to compartmentalize any more than he is doing right now. i think that adds to the sort of urgency that democrats feel on the hill. when you talk to democrats there's an urgency they feel about it that's sort of profound because they're witnessing what trump is doing and they're worried about what he will do in this moment because he feels so caged in. but kudos to jeff. i think, you know, we should expect this type of behavior even amplified going forward. >> lonnie, we are starting to see people run for the exits or at least cover their rear ends. we saw rudy guilliani start to say, the state department put me up to it. yesterday there was washington reporting that said unnamed

sources around the vice president said, wait a minute, yes, i talked to president zelensky of ukraine but i didn't know president trump talked to him about some kind of deal regarding the bidens. i was just there to root out corruption. you see people even closest to the president and vice president pence covering their rear ends. >> yes, well, this will be the challenge, willie, going forward, which is as the proceeding continues there will be a balance amongst whether it is people on the president's staff, people around the president, republicans on capitol hill, which is the balance between continuing to defend the president knowing that there will be political repercussions for not defending the president and recognizing that individuals have careers, they have reputations that extend beyond this presidency. the question is going to be fish or cut bait, and at what point do people begin to focus on the future rather than the presiden and i think that will be the most interesting question for republicans and people in the administration going forward, which is how do they draw this

balance, where do they draw the line, and to what extent are they willing to defend the president at all costs versus defending themselves. >> still ahead on "morning joe" we will show you more of president trump's remarks yesterday including his wirgt g withering attacks on adam schiff, what the intel chairman knew before the whistle-blower report came out. we will be right back. e out. we will be right back. if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened;

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he. ♪ the chairman of the house intel committee reportedly learned about the ukraine whistle-blower's complaint against president trump days before it was officially filed, according to "the new york times" citing a spokesman for adam schiff along with current and u.s. officials, the whistle-blower approached a house intel committee aide with his concerns about the president

only after first having a colleague relay them to the cia's top lawyer. the "times" says the officer approached the aide after becoming concerned about the initial attempt of revealing the allegations through the cia was unfolding. the paper goes on to write that the house staff member following the committee's procedures suggested the officer find a lawyer to advise and meet with an inspector general with whom he could file an official whistle-blower complaint. the aide shared some of what was conveyed to chairman schiff but not the whistle-blower's identity. it was said in part, the whistle-blower contacted the committee for guidance on how to report possible wrong doing within the jurisdiction of the intelligence community. this is a regular occurrence, given the committee's oversight role and responsibilities. at no point did the committee review or receive the complaint in advance. top members of the committee including republican chairman richard bure suggested house

committee followed protocol, saying it was standard procedure to refer whistle-blowers to the relevant inspectors general. here is the president's reaction to "the new york times" report. >> your response to the fact that it happened and schiff may have learned some of what the whistle-blower knew prior to the complaint being filed. >> i think it is a scandal he knew before. i would go a step further, think he probably helped write it. okay, that's what the word is. i think i give a lot of respect for "the new york times" for putting it out. just happened as i'm walking up here, they handed it to me. i said to mike, i said, whoa, that's something, that's big stuff. that's a big story. he knew long before and he helped write it too. it is a scam. it is a scam. just to finish on this, i appreciate it, i love that second question, by the way. should have asked it first. but let me just tell you, the whole thing is a scam. the mueller deal was a scam. the russian collusion was a

scam. you can ask putin. nobody has been rougher on russia than donald trump. okay. >> i should point out the reporter asking the question to the president misrepresented the "times" reporting putting forth the idea that chairman schiff knew about the substance of the complaint in advance which allowed the president to suggest the congressman had a hand in writing it. the reporting say that's not the case. let's bring in correspondent ken delaney. you have been on this story all night. walk us through what exactly happened and if adam schiff did anything wrong, because the president clearly there and we saw all day yesterday after the story broke, his supporters claiming they have a smoking gun here that somehow adam schiff helped the whistle-blower craft his complaint to get at the president. >> well, willie, the most important thing for our viewers to understand about this is this -- what happened here is exactly how the system is supposed to work and how it routinely works with the mouse amouse -- house and senate

intelligence committees. my sources tell me two or three times a month an intelligence officer will come to the committees, particularly in this case the house intelligence committee, with a complaint of some sort they want to bring to congress's attention. and the staff will give them the same answer. don't tell us anything classified, we are on an unsecured phone most likely, get a lawyer, go to the inspector general, file your complaint and it will get to us eventually if it is an urgent concern. most of the complaints never get to them because often they're not very serious. this one was quite serious, but there's no evidence that schiff's office or schiff's aides helped this whistle-blower write this complaint and we don't even really know exactly what schiff knew about it. i mean he knew it was serious, that's clear, but it is also important for people to understand that this wasn't the first time that this whistle-blower had conveyed his complaint. he first through a colleague brought his complaint to the cia inspector general.

i have that confirmed through my own sources. he became convinced -- this is according to "the new york times" -- that the complaint was not being handled properly because he learned that the cia inspector general alerted the white house counsel's office, the very subject of the complaint, about the contents of it and had brought in officials at the justice department and the whistle-blower was worried it was going to be essentially covered up. so he goes to the house committee. the house committee says, file a complaint with the inspector general. he does that. the next thing schiff learns about it is that the complaint is being withheld. the congress gets notified by the inspector general we have an urgent concern complaint, but the white house and the justice department is not letting us pass that on to you. that's when adam schiff issues a news release and says he's issuing a subpoena for this complaint. it was friday, september 13th. i remember checking around to my sources, other sources among -- in congress, no one else seemed to know whether this was significant or not.

people were speculating that schiff was out on a limb here, but, in fact, we now know he did know, he had a heads up. but that's a good thing because he was able to take the kind of action that made sure that the white house could not cover this up, which appears to be what they were trying to do. >> coming up next, we will talk to a member of the house intel committee about the impeachment inquiry. that's straight ahead on "morning joe". ♪ i'm ládeia, and there's more to me than hiv. there's my career... my cause... and creating my dream home. i'm a work in progress. so much goes into who i am. hiv medicine is one part of it. prescription dovato is for adults who are starting hiv-1 treatment and who aren't resistant to either

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former police officer amber guyger has been sentenced to ten years in prison for fatally shooting her unarmed 26-year-old neighbor botham jean inside his own apartment. guyger said she accidentally entered that apartment directly above hers and thought jean was an intruder. in surprising and powerful testimony yesterday, jean's brother offered his forgiveness. >> if you truly are sorry, i know i can speak for myself, i forgive you and i know if you go to god and ask him, he will

forgive you. and i don't think anyone could say it -- again, i'm speaking for myself. i'm not even for my family, but i love you just like anyone else. and i'm not going to say i hope you rot and die just like my brother did, but i see -- i personally want the best for you, and i -- i wasn't going to ever say this in front of my family or anyone, but i don't even want you to go to jail. i want the best for you because i know that's -- that's exactly what botham would want you to do, and the best would be give your life to christ.

again, i love you as a person and i don't wish anything bad on you. i don't know if it is possible, but can -- can i give her a hug, please? >> whew. get chills watching that. that, again, is the young man whose brother was murdered by amber guyger as he sat, botham jean, in his own apartment eating a bowl of vanilla ice cream. that's grace unlike any i don't know i have seen before. >> it really is. first of all, i thought that she should have gotten more time. many of us felt ten years was too lenient. but putting that aside, when he did that there, i got a call last night from a friend saying i don't know how he can forgive her. i said, i do. i remember i was stabbed by a guy leading a march in '91, a

white male walked up, stabbed me while we were marching against racial violence. i went to court and forgave him, only because i wanted to grow myself. i understood what that young man was doing. he did that statement for him, not for her, to show that he was a real christian. when you contrast his forgiveness with what we have sitting in the white house, this was a healing moment that the nation needed. it should not excuse what she did. i think she should have gotten more time, but i think he represented that we're not going to become like the ugliness we face, which is what gandhi said. >> i think that's why that moment resonated. it resonates on its own. you don't need anything else around it for that to touch you, but that kind of humanity, that kind of grace and that mercy, it is much needed and much welcome. my god, what a moment. >> well, we sit here each and every day talking really about the polarization of politics in this country, but the polarization of the country itself, within the country

itself. what we just saw there was an example of something that is at the root of the united states of america, always has been, regardless of your religion, your faith, whatever, forgiveness. this country is a forgiving country, and we should think about that more, incorporate it into our thoughts rather than the polarization that occurs each and every day out of washington. >> karine, i couldn't help as i watched this yesterday remembering the families in charleston. the next day, the next day they couldn't visit the shooter, he was being held. they looked up at his image on a monitor and talked to him and said almost that, said, "we forgive you." >> i think there's something to say about the experience of black america in this country, the ability for black americans to have such violence in their space, in their world done to them, and christianity and faith and humanity still sits very --

very largely, and you saw that with brandt jean, botham jean's brother we just saw. we have to remember botham jean was 26 years old, a black man in his own apartment minding his own business and got killed, and she should have gotten more time. she just should have. it should not have happened this way. but that's what i think about. i think about, like i said, what black americans have to go through in this country and the violence that they go through, and the fact that they were able to forgive and this time with the president that we have in this office that divides us, that attacks the most marginalized people, it is very, very problematic. you're right, it would have been powerful when it is alone, standing alone, but on the backdrop of where we are as a country it is even more powerful. >> we will remember botham jean's name and now we will remember brandt jean's name as

well. let's turn back to politics. democratic congressman christian morthy of illinois. great to see you as always. >> good morning. >> let's talk about the investigation. you sit on the house intel committee. first of all i want to ask you about the reporting on "the new york times", that the whistle-blower contacted staff on the intel committee and was directed to go back and file a formal compliant. the president and those around him saying they believe it is a smoking gun that adam schiff was orchestrating this and helping to write the whistle-blower report, which of course is not true. what is your view of the facts laid out in "the new york times" and do you have any trouble with the way the committee handled the whistle-blower? >> i don't. basically what the president said was completely false. i'm glad that chairman bure in the senate said that the way the house intelligence committee appeared to handle this whistle-blower's concerns was correct. we are approached routinely by folks who just want to know what

the process is, how to go about filing a whistle-blower complaint, and that's exactly what happened heave. an aide to the house intelligence committee directed the whistle-blower to go to the inspector general and do things by the book, which is what he did, he or she did. >> congressman, it is jonathan lemire. on the subject of the whistle-blower, when do you anticipate being able to speak to this individual? and as a second question, how are you going to protect his or her identity, who has now come under such intense scrutiny and pressure from a number of conservatives including the president of the united states? >> yes, i think we want to talk to the whistle-blower asap, and that's in part because of what the president has said recently that gives rise to concerns that the president might try to retaliate against the whistle-blower or try to get to him or her before they have a chance to speak to us and discourage them from telling their story. i think the real challenge here is, you know, i think probably

chairman schiff wants to do this in as public a way as possible, but how do you do that while at the same time concealing the person's identity? on the other hand, you could do it in a closed session but i think there's intense public interest in this person's story and their complaint. >> sam stein? >> congressman, jonathan lemire selfishly stole my question, but i did have luckily a second one, which is the president has repeatedly said that his call with the ukrainian president was perfect and the transcript verifies. of course, it is not a transcript, it is a sumrization, a call memorandum. as you investigate this in the context of an impeachment proceeding, how imperative do you view it to get your hands on to the actual transcript, and do you anticipate by the end of this that you will have obtained the actual transcript of the call and that it will be made public? >> i hope so.

you're absolutely right, this is at the bottom of the summary it says it is a memorandum of a telephone conversation, a tele-con in the jargon of these things. basically the original verbatim transcript is different. it is produced by some type of voice recognition software and then note takers edit it after the fact. in this particular case, the whistle-blower alleges that the original, i guess verbatim transcript was uploaded on to a special secret server which was not consistent with past practice. i think that we should try to get hold of the original verbatim transcript, and we should also figure out how it was edited. dni maguire, director of national intelligence maguire, told me at the hearing last week there were 12 people, at least 12 people on the call. so to the extent that they participated in the editing we

would want to know that as well. >> congressman, there are multiple investigations going on in various agencies with regard to the president's behavior. one of them is being headed up by john durham, who is a skilled, experienced investigator with great credentials. now it appears that in rome a week ago, ten days ago the attorney general was with mr. durham during the course of mr. durham's investigation, and it appeared, at least according to the public prints and other sources will tell you, that the attorney general was basically looking over john durham's shoulder. does this concern you at all? >> absolutely. first of all, i should say that the investigation of the mueller investigation is misplaced. i was actually a part of those -- most of those 17 depositions that occurred in the last congress when the republicans were in the majority and nothing came out of it.

they didn't even have enough evidence to formulate a report. so i don't see why on this second go around they're going to find anything different. that being said, mr. durham has been appointed to lead this investigation of the mueller investigation, and the fact that mr. barr would somehow come in and potentially commandeer that investigation for political purposes is especially troubling and reinforces the notion that the department of justice, at least in this administration, is not the independent body that it should be within the executive branch. the fact that he keeps coming up on that call, the july 25th call, i think four or five times he has been referred to by the president is also especially troubling. >> congressman, when much ado has been made by the trump side about the whistle-blower coming to the committee and whether it was therefore guided by congressman schiff, et cetera,

but isn't it true when the committee sent him to the inspect orgenera inspector general, the inspector general could have said there is no merit here and said said it isn't a matter of urgency, doesn't it show it is a matter of bipartisan when the trump appointed ig said it is a sense of urgency. >> it is a trump appointed inspector general who basically looked at the whistle-blower complaint and judged it to be both credible as well as urgent. he then forwarded it on to the acting director of national intelligence, maguire, who is then supposed to forward it to us. we did not actually receive that complaint from mr. maguire. rather, the inspector general was the one who took it upon himself at risk of his own career to come to us and say, folks, i have forwarded an urgent, credible complaint to

dni maguire -- and i'm now paraphrasing because it was in a classified setting -- red lights flashing, do something about this. i have to say this person is to be commended for his professionalism and patriotism in bringing forward that complaint to us because he had every reason not to do it, but he did it at risk of his own career because basically he's bringing a complaint against his own boss, the president. >> all right. a member of the house oversight and intelligence committee, congressman of illinois. thank you for your time, congressman. appreciate it. >> thank you again. coming up next, the editor-in-chief of "vanity fair" joins our discussion. i want to highlight a post from stephanie ruhle, who is writing about feminism on knowyourvalue.com. it is the topic of her latest podcast, "modern ruhles."

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe" on a thursday morning, 8:42 here in new york. joining us editor-in-chief of "vanity fair", radica jones, here with the latest issue that features the new establish list. welcome back to the show. >> good morning. >> can we define the establishment before we dig into the categories? what are we talking about here? >> high school hard to define the establishment because it is going through shifts in the post me too era and the current impeachment story line. for us it is a question of who is calling the shot, who are power brokers. it is the 25th year of the list. we divided in ten categories touching on politics, the media, taste makers in the culture, the new hollywood will you will find in the package a ranked list of

the ten biggest movers and shakers in those areas. >> let's begin in the wheelhouse of our show, which is politics. you guys call it the swamp, the president of the united states number one on the list. who else is there? >> number one on the list, although it strikes me listening to the news these days he might position himself as a victim of the establishment. we would say, no, no, he is definitely the establishment. but also on that list are nancy pelosi and mitch mcconnell. alexandria ocasio-cortez, william barr, and rounding out the list at number ten is a reesing power rising power we are interested in, stacey abrams, who has launched fire fight 2020, which is promoting fair elections. >> she launched an election with a lot of people talking about her future because how close the race was. we can look at the fourth estate, happy to see our friend rach rachel maddow on the list as well.

the west coast power resides in the valley and you start with the head of youtube. >> the head of youtube and often in the cross fire in terms of questions of free speech and the toxic culture we are living in. she has an enormous job and that will only get more consequential. >> looking at a category known as the rockefellers, some of the biggest and wealthiest in the country, though i don't see mike barnacle on here strangely. tom steyer is running for president. we seashell don atelson, perhaps the most influential donor. so explain the qualifications to make this list and what sort of influence are these people having? >> well, this is about philanthropy and giving in all areas. so you also have on that list

lorraine powell jobs who is supporting media through her emerson collective and bill and melinda gates, people giving to causes they see fit. as you mentioned, a lot of those fall into the fear of climate change, gun control, other issues that have become politicized in our country in ways perhaps they shouldn't, but they are. >> so just to go back to the swamp for one second. i know we talked about stacey abrams, which is not surprising because of her kind of stature in the political world. it is interesting to see la tisha james, the attorney general here in new york. i was wondering, i know she played a really big part of keeping donald trump accountable if you will. >> right. >> just was curious what was the decision there? >> i think that's exactly it. you put your finger on it. what is interesting about putting a list like this together is so much of it is about tension. you know, it is not a list of heroes, it is not a list of do-gooders. it is a list of people holding power and who are holding each other accountable, like within

every list and within the structure of the package. >> and is it also not chosen by the climate that we're in? because different generations, different eras therefore produce the people that are real players, and these people play in the landscape that we're presently dealing in. >> exactly. it is a snapshot of the time, and i think, you know, for that reason these -- it is actually -- it makes it more exciting to work on a package like this because you feel a year from now it could be completely different. certainly thinking about the generational stories that we are living here -- >> a tweet from now we could be different. >> a tweet from now we could be different, exactly. and we do, we have a live event that's connected to this list as well. we do the "vanity fair" new establishment summit in l.a. from october 21st through the 23rd, and some of the people on the list will be there, sheryl sandberg, the coo of facebook and often in the news these days for good and ill, gwyneth paltrow, one of our taste

makers, so we will be asking them all sorts of questions about the power they hold. >> willie and my invitation are in the mail? >> in the mail. >> don't forget us, too. >> we're right here. >> we're closing out the festivities. >> e-mailing you guys. >> your list on new hollywood is reflective where hollywood is, where movies are appearing. it is streaming services. you mentioned netflix. you have the big names in there, but to me it is a statement of where media and hollywood is now. >> it is so fascinating. we have janet mock on the list who just signed a big deal with netflix, who is becoming a power broken in hollywood, a transgender writer, director, telling stories that have not been told in this space in a long time. ava duvernier and j.j. who has a big deal with warner. >> don't forget we're all going

to work for sean duron. the new issue of "vanity fair" will be on stands october 8th. good to see you. >> thank you. still ahead, the agonizing decision not to run for reelection in an era that would define history. emmy award-winning bryan cox joins us to discuss the show, "the great society." "morning joe" is coming right back. we call it the mother standard of care. it's how we care for our cancer patients- like job. when he was diagnosed with cancer, his team at ctca created a personalized care plan to treat his cancer and side effects. so job could continue to work and stay strong for his family. this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal. we love you, daddy. good night. i love you guys. cancer treatment centers of america.

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. in november 1964 lyndon johnson won and the great society tells us about what happened next. it is so great to have you here this morning. the great society is getting incredible reviews. it is the second in a pair. brian cranston did the first one. i thought they had the wrong brian. >> where do we pick up president johnson? we pick up at his high point. he won by a huge landslide.

i think reagan beat him by a similar landslide but it was astonishing. and it starts the downhill tread from there on. which is tragic. i think he was one of the truly tragic figures in -- >> why is that? >> he did so much. he did the most amazing things. he got civil rights, voting rights, education. poverty bills in a way -- it all started under kennedy, but he didn't have the influence that johnson had. and he was a good old boy, and he came from relatively poor circumstances. there is a speech when he talks about getting electricity to his part of the country. and the problem -- and it is a

common american fault, international sense of what is going on in the rest of the world and he didn't understand about vietnam, and he was lead in a particular way. >>. >> it was a washington and it remains a tragedy. but there is was sadness to him because of what he bore. how did he handle it, and we say it is a american dilemma. >> it is something i didn't realize about this country until i came to live here. and i didn't -- and it's of course because it is so big. the difference between ho c

chi min, and america had just lived through the mccarthy period. and they had just lived through all of that, and that was shadowing what was going on and it was particularly affecting the presidency. and kennedy, even kennedy himself started the whole vietnam thing. that all started, and they were the most corrupt -- they had another regime change after another regime change. >> you lived here for a quarter of a century now but your roots are not from here. as you portray lyndon johnson, his epic presidency, the mistakes that brought his presidency down, did it strike you in studying that era and

living here now that americans don't really understand our own history as a nation? >> it seems to me, my tradition, i think what is amazing for me is the fact that the lack of knowledge of the world, which i find astonish iing really. it was 100 years almost to the day from the end of the self-war to when johnson started to get the civil rights through. and it took that long. and of course the extraordinary work of martin luther king. abernathy, stokely, they were sort of a unified group that became splintered. and that, to me -- and this is

four years. and it it was the most extraordinary four years, i think, in american history. it was a formative of everything else. southern democrats have disappeared and they have become republicans. i love history and i have a sha shakespearian trained. and this is a true american piece of work, and it is dealing with american history -- >> and you get into the assassinations -- >> and we deal with that and it impedes on his tragedy, you know? he was a good old boy. his father was a former and not

very successful. and he made his life, and he was a congressman, and and he was in your face. he was one of these guys. that was his technique and it was brilliant. i use it in the play. i pull people around the stage. i have a great scene where i grab wallace and i'm on top of him. that's how he did it. that's how he had it. he had a internal way of speaking. and if you listen to his phone calls he is an extraordinary man. and jackie kennedy is talking to him on the phone and she is melting and he is doing all of that texas charm.

>> we'll our apoll guys they wanted to talk about successions. people are lining up and it is a must see this time, brian cox, thank you, great to see you. thank you for watching, that does it for us this morning, stephanie ruhle picks up our coverage this morning. rapid developments in the impeachment. >> and the heartbreaking video that everyone was talking about, but is the sentence of amber guyger justice? >> and benny sarnie sanders is g campaign adds as he steps down following a medical procedure. first we have t