>> we are all out of time this hour. msnbc live will be back tomorrow morning at the same time. now it is time for "up with david gura." >> this is "up" i'm david gura. we now know what the top lawyer at the cia made a report. a second intelligence official waiting to see if he'll file his own informal complaint. fuelled by the trove of text

messages. hakeem jefferys will join us. the white house tries to throw up more road blocks. the white house puts up new limitations on vista application. breaking new details on the medical emergency that sidelined senator bernie sanders. the author of the book the death of expert he's. and talid bryant, the host of "unredacted." and with us from nbc news. secretary of state, mike pompeo is at the center of this story

and was in athens, greece. he addressed the issue back home and missed the deadline for the subpoena. >> very focused at the direction of the president. we are very focused on creating space that we could ultimately deliver a good relationship with this new government. that was my guidance all along. you saw the ambassador work diligently. we know there has been corruption in ukraine. the united states has been engaged in trying to push back the corruption in ukraine for quite some time. >> you hear the secretary of state mention that and we've heard the president mention that

as well. >> it was really stunning to me, david. in the wake of these text messages and documents that have emerged to make it clear to pressure those in ukraine. >> we've seen it in black and white. we have mike pompeo not acknowledging that he's spinning there. we can all see that is not the case. >> walk us through the reporting. the lead attorney for the cia reported on what she felt was a criminal complaint.

help us understand what the department of justice decided to do. >> sure. this is a bit complicated. before this ever became a whistleblower complaint, the cia officer who first raised the concern, raised the concern to his own colleague and it bubbled up to the general council. she called the white house, the top lawyer at national security council. he knew what it was about. people had already raised concern about this july 25 call. they started doing an investigation and had some sense that there was an april gags that the president abused his power. they called over to national security at the justice department and explained what was going on and made a criminal referral. said she had reasonable basis to

believe a crime had been committed. that happened shortly afterwards. the whistleblower wasn't sure that would be handled. the justice department did almost nothing as far as we can tell. it puts a spotlight on a decision to decline to open an investigation at all on this. no witness or examination of documents. they did a legal analysis whether donald trump illegally sol isitied a foreign body. since investigating the bide bidens. for example, extortion, bribery,

fraud, conflict of interest, all of these seem to apply. the president pressuring a foreign government and making foreign aid based on an action. after those text messages yesterday, it is increasingly difficult to understand why this isn't a case with the security department. >> moving on to other major developments. text messages showing a career diplomat concerned of why the white house was withholding hundreds of millions of aid to ukraine. >> the white house has repeated over and over there was no quit

prokwoe. >> there was no quid pro quo. >> there doesn't need to be an explicit quid pro quo for an egregious abuse of presidential power. >> even without a direct quid pro quo. hey, i'll give you foreign aid, if you investigate my opponent. it could be implied here. >> what is crucial here, there were makings of that quid pro quo. after that happened, president trump froze that campaign. spear headed by rudy giuliani. saying wrongly in that whistleblower complaint. the whistleblower did not sas

that omb officials stated complicitly that instruction to suspend had come directly from the president but they were unaware of that policy rational. that does not stop the president from putting words in the whistleblower's mouth. >> the whistleblower report, didn't he say seven or eight times that i said quid pro quo. >> hard to imagine him saying that seven or eight stiems. talk of a white house visit if they would agree to investigate the bidens. asking are we now saying that the investigation is part of the deal. the eu ambassador, friend of president trump says he replied

to that text, they should stop texting. we see a quid pro quo. it is there. now we know how worried officials were. >> it is a rare think, if something you would never see. >> first, as you pointed out. you don't need a quid pro quo to have this kind of abuse of power. to have the president to say, i'm going to hold up military aid and there are thing ha that might say that. in washington, a culture of compliance where people write things down much to the shock of people like the president or people in new york. they knew they had to leave some

kind of a record. it it is an abuse of power it is only not a quid pro quo to people who are extending emense calories even to a normal one. >> talking about how pivotal those are. there are more documents to come, more people will testify. we've heard from one guy these are early days yet. >> and that's the danger. they don't know what proving

that is not true. so you have to be careful moving forward. you also see conservatives come out and say, okay, so it was inappropriate for the president to have asked a foreign government to investigate. what is interesting is that the idea that it is creating some kind of road map for conservatives who want to say that it was inappropriate but if you say it was criminal, one, you'll get on his bad side. but what do you do if you are up for reelection? >> you'll see more take this argument that says, i don't

think it was good but not impeachable. >> we've talked a lot about the state of the state department today that president wants to scale back the size of national security council. you look at a guy that is so earnest. as my colleague said, there is this awareness, recognition of guilt that what is happening here is not right. >> i don't know where to sfart. i'm glad they didn't have the camera on us will any republican vote against donald trump? >> i worked there four years. i worked with bill taylor and with the secretary.

this doesn't go on without a few things. one informing the secretary. people are not writing text messages. they know they are memorializing it, papering it. this is so beyond the pale, it is why they are getting caught every step of the way. by the way, there is so much more than this. this will document itself up to pompeo. there is no doubt in my mind. as someone who had tens of thousands of their email out in the public and having to explain what it means if i'm telling hillary clinton that homeland is on showtime at 10:00. it is crazy to look at these texts and interpret them.

there is nothing to inter interpret. >> before we went on the air, you asked to borrow $700 million. my house needs painting. you could ask seven times. >> really quickly. he says things he didn't want memorialized. ahead how the white house is making it harder for immigrants. learning about proposals made in the past. an update on senator bernie sanders who has been released from the hospital. and joe biden, finally fighting

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breaking news on the condition of presidential candidate bernie sanders. his office now confirms he suffered a heart attack. he was hospitalized on tuesday. treated for what is described as a blockage in an artery. he went on twitter to declare he is, quote, feeling so much

better. his campaign says he'll be back on the trail scheduled for october 15. donald trump is spending millions in negative tv ads lying about the one democrat he doesn't want to face. >> new fundraising numbers are now. seeing significant dip. his campaign raised $15.2 in the third quarter. he lags behind some rivals. senator sanders raised $25.3 million. elizabeth warren $24.6. andrew yang brought in $10 million.

more bad news about the former vice president. quick update on how the president is doing when it comes to fundraising. so far, he and the gop have jointly raised $125 million. i want to be careful here. there has been a lot of bad news surrounding all of this. how should joe biden and his camp be responding? >> exactly as he has the last four days. >> the delay and then the advertising push. >> i don't know that he has the $6 million to burn. what is important is what is coming out of his mouth.

he was just taking it. now it is coming out of his mouth directly. it is strong and direct. it is not in a juvenile, trump way. he is having the moxy to do it, to go head-to-head with donald trump. when he talked about, you will not destroy me. yesterday, he said, this is the most corrupt guy. saying, are you kidding me? >> looking at these allegations of what hunter biden may or may not have done in china. who are you to be talking about corruption? >> yes.

i thought the most effective line was, you know me. he looks out at america. he's like, you know who i am. trump can say whatever he wants. you and i have known each other a long time. the only thick i worry about is every time you argue with the trump narrative, you are repeating the trump narrative. we have articles with the usual suspects out saying, well, we understand it would be wrong. it's like nixon repeating, it would be wrong to ask china to investigate someone. they want to bait you in to that conversation. they want to talk about anything about the fact that the president has committed clearly

impeachable acts calling on foreign governments. >> the third quarter is historically one where the fundraising lags. this has taken him off the campaign trail. they are actually doing more fundraisers now. >> but also $15 million pales compared to $125 donald trump and rnc are paying towards negative advertising. once you get done, you can look at this as an opportunity for joe biden to prove he can beat donald trump like a drum.

on the other hand, it continues to draw more attention to it. he might be bricking hunter biden on the campaign trail. there is dangers involved in that. >> that was happening before and without response. >> it would be silly for someone to bring it up ifs that the only reason the media and everyone cover it. in reality, it was being covered in zero. i'd rather be at 25% and raise $10 million. these are huge numbers. when you come to may, june, july. the democratic nominee will have $0 in the bank.

trump will have politicalons. >> up ahead, another gop senator joins a small chore us of republican lawmakers defending the whooilg whiesle from someone who wrote the book on whistle blowing. e blowing.

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>> back to that news. a second intelligence official considering filing a claim. the second official has more information. the second is among those interviewed by those to corroborate the information. a career irs official is alleging one political appointee attempted to interfere with the president's and/or vice president's annual tax returns. it is allowing a number of democrats who have demanded the

release. the authority of the book "whistleblowers." >> the book gives us a good historical perspective. has whistle blowing been tested the way it is today? it is the first time we've seen an american president basically encourage supporters to retaliate. >> what is the message it is sending. this person has an inanytimity at this point? >> i'm going to say something paradox cal, that the president's attacks actually

works. it is when a whistleblower can't break you through and things get buried and quiet. >> the president is a great advertisement. you blow the whistle. it works. the president does not understand any of this. during the break we were laughing saying, until comey, the president probably never heard the word memorialize to let people know what is going on. i also argue that the president's behavior towards a whistleblower is impeachable. in terms of bringing attention to them. it comes before the public. the president in a way is the

best advertisement we have had. >> i want to get a sense for you when you look at the law surrounding all of this, that's built in. >> it is important to realize that again win whistleblowers are not partisan. they are patriotic. they've been around before the constitution was ratified. we passed the first whistleblower law in 1778. preventing them for using their public office for private gain. >> i listened to the rhetoric from the president. he uses the word treason wrongly

and continually here. >> the founders really built in a lot. this isn't like the first whistleblower came from the cia. the second whistleblower knows the first. no one wants to be the first out of the gate but boy they are okay joining in. >> if i worked with any of the three of you and the president hung you out to dry, i would be very likely to say, well i did due. the first was not the only one, i don't know if we'll get to 5, 10, 15. people sense that this is the

time to speak out. they are seeing whatever the outcome is and whether -- they are seeing that this is sticking. we are seeing a laser focus. they feel this is the time to stick their neck out. this work that is happening here. how much is that baked into this progress? the intelligence community is behaving in an unprecedented fashion. it is a miracle that they've even come forward. since trump's election because they believe that president is a

national security threat to the united states. there has been a pattern of behavior. they are having a grave concern for the system itself. >> one question here. the whistleblower at the cia is not tattling on the cia. hopefully the cia director is speaking up saying, you don't touch these guys. you go through me. >> we'll have to leave it there. up next, if imimpeachment don't bring down the president.

trade talks with u.s. and china are expected to start up again. not to mention that he asked china to investigate one of his political rivals. >> i'm not aware of that conversation and i doubt -- they barely touk to me in there. it's way out of my lane. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. where to next?

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>> the cohost of the podcast "the indicator" joins us now. >> one thing the president is fond about. talking about the stock market and these numbers. >> we need to consider this in a much wider context, right? what we've seen the economy and the labor market but at a much slower pace than last year. we've seen a steady drum beat of disappointing cuts. economic growth throughout the world sends that to us. on the other hand, the u.s. consumer. that might continue, plus the

federal reserve is losening policies now. that might as a buffer. we kay say for sure again. he kroo ating about 220,000. that has slowed to about 160,000 a month. >> let me ask you about the politics of this. he focuses on manufacturing. that is so central to his campaign. how worried is the white house? >> i don't really think so but they should be worried. this is the one thing donald trump has to do is keep the economy chucking along. we always say the economy stupid in elections but it is. if people feel like they are

economically stable, everything else. they have to keep this moving along. >> if they have to keep doing that and when you talk to any economist or investor, where do we see that manufacturing itself when we look at the data? >> to add the context to the down turn. possible it already is itself in recession. but that feeds into part of the economy. the rest of the economy. the thing everyone is focusing on now is the tariffs with china. the tariffs have gotten out of

control. there is more of a problem here, which is there might be an agreement. maybe they'll role back some some say well tell the chinese. they do all these things but at the same time, it will probably want to keep doing them. china is trying to catch up to the u.s. in a lot of high tech sectors. this economic decoupling seems like it will be really hard to reverse. >> lastly to you here, you look at the read outs.

often the read out is, we've agreed to keep talking. what does that say to you about where we are? 18 months into the trade war with china here? >> there are two things. first of all, the chinese have no incentive to move. in part, because this is clearly starting to hurt us to some is level. no one can rely on what the president says. when a deal is not a deal. the deal is a deal until there is a tweet or gets angry. the other impact of this, i wonder if we are not seeing. one of the things trump has been successful at, is telling people

not my fault. they go out to the farms, the farmers say, he's doing his best. it is those bureaucrats. i wonder how much mochl there could be. the incentive they might have is that this is hurting them. the trade uncertainty is hurting the economy for sure. it is something that is clear has been harmed in the last 18 months. >> good to see you. fran chessaa there. >> mike pompeo's comments about how the state department is

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. >> this is "up with david gura" we learned this week that mike pompeo was on that call that is the center of the house get doc from him and other members of the department. and mike pompeo on a trip to europe is pushing back. >> we won't tolerate them bullying state department officials. it it's not something i'm going to permit to happen. >> flash back to 2014 when mike pompeo was a congressman and one of seven republicans on the house select committee on benghazi. >> the four americans died at the hands of terrorists in a well coordinated assault. we will will not take any short cuts to the truth. accountability or justice. we'll not allow any side shows that distract us from those goals. >> i spent a good chunk of time this week watching old

interviews with pompeo and during that investigation, his focus was simple. >> our goal is to get every single will fact we can get, every document, every witness. i had to put together the puzzle for the american people. >> congressman pompeo said the investigation needed to be in his words, one that was fully stoked. >> we need to make sure that everyone who was involved in had this has the opportunity to speak with us, to share their testimony, their ideas, thoughts about what really happened that night. >> this week in a memo to congress, requests for depositions from state department officials can be understood only as the attempt to intimidate, bully and treat improperly the distinguished proch professionals of the department of state. he was singing a different tune when he had pushed back against his request and critics said the investigation had had gone on too long, he said this -- >> there are still many state

department witnesses that have not been interviewed by any member of congress. >> lawmakers demanded documents from mike pompeo. an official on the house foreign affairs committee tells nbc news he failed to meet the deadline to produce documents required by the subpoena. looks like the lawmakers want to hear from the secretary of state in person as well. and if you were to push back on that, remember what he told npr in 2015. it would be in his words, investigate torre malpractice if we didn't interview former secretary clinton. this investigation underway from testimony to text messages, lawmakers stand to learn a lot from state department employees past and present for all the interviews i watched of pompeo dating back to the benghazi investigation, this line stands out the most -- >> it's never a waste of taxpayer money to get the truth for the american people. it is, he continued in that interview, deeply part of the american tradition and our constitution that congress perform this oversight.

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# . we begin with the breaking news overnight that a second whistle-blower inside the intelligence committee may step forward with a complaint of his or her own. the paper reports this official

has more direct information about president trump using executive power to get ukraine to investigate former vice president joe biden. this news as house democrats subpoenaed the white house for documents relating to the pr president's dealings with ukraine. requesting vice president mike pence turn over any documents he might have about the president's attempt to investigate the bidens. the president is in battle mode, continuing to attack adam schiff, the house of the select committee on untell jens. and in comments this week out in the open, the president advocating for outside interference in the next election. he also lashed out at the whistle-blower. >> he would don't come him shifty schiff for anything. he is a shifty dishonest guy. >> he made up the conversation. it should be trees onnist. they shoe look at him for treason. look at nancy pelosi. she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. here you go. take them, like they're cookies.

the this country has to find out who that person was. that person is a spy. you people should be ashamed of yourself. okay. i think i answered most of your questions. what do you think? yes? china should start an investigation into bidens. what happened in china is just about as bad as what happened in ukraine. >> this is the 11th day of the house's impeachment inquiry. we'll get an daupdate in just a minute. up with me this hour, the national correspondent for new york magazine. julian maxwell is the director of progressive programming for sirius/xm and also an msnbc politicalantist. mimi roqua is a district attorney. she is now an msnbc legal analyst. and we're joined this morning by jeffrey rosen, the president and ceo of the national constitution. let me start with you. we mentioned subpoenas now of the vice president, trying to get documents from the white house as well. just want to repeat something i said last hour.

these are early days yet of this investigation. we have learned so much. the shape of the investigation has changed so much because of what we learned from those text message that's we have released this week. >> absolutely one of the interesting things is early on leaders of the house itself said we're going to try to do this expeditiously. we want this to be a clear case to be presented to the american people. the last ten days, that is, as you just said, changed dramatically. we don't know how long this is going to drag on. but obviously the white house is not very happy with the way that it's developed so far. every single day there is more and more evidence that was bad for the president. so where we are right now, it's obviously a little bit vague. but the fact that we now have the house subpoenaing or the house committees subpoenaing the white house and the state department and various leaders of the white house and the national security, you know, world, suggests this is going to drag on for quite some time and going to keep finding out more and more day by day. >> let's talk about the narrative being shaped here. the first -- there are all these

subpoen subpoenas and we'll talk about this in just a moment. how well are they holding on to that narrative? keeping this focused the in the way that they need to. >> i think the cha willing is eve the challenge is every single day the president confesses to what he -- or commits another crime. he already confessed to the crime he accused of doing with ukraine. and then he's committing new crimes on camera. and so it makes it difficult when you're the person tasked with investigating someone who continually commits crimes every day. . and in this context, because now we're not in the law. we're talking about politics. and so it is messy. he benefits from the fact that it's messy. he benefits from the fact he can throw mud against the wall and we're going to cover it. he benefits from the fact that he can stand in front of the helicopter and you can't hear the reporters questions and they rarely are ever able to ask follow ups. he can just rant about joe biden and ask china to hack our election and interfere which is a crime. and so i think in this

particular moment, we're unprecedented times in that we have enough evidence. we already know there was a crime committed by the president on camera. on camera. and so the question for us now is what are we going to do about it? the house is going to investigate. and put articles of impeachmeup vote. that's what they're going to do. we as citizens of the country also need to take a step back in this moment because this is dangerous. the president is dangerous. the fact that he is standing on television and is openingly committing crimes is terrifying. we never lived through something like this before. >> you watch this unfold, you hear the republican talking point. and that is if you're so sure of this, just do the vote. let's get this going. let's have an impeachment vote. you have democrats saying the investigation is continuing and need to build this case. how do you balance those two things? how did you in your past career

and see them balancing them now in this context? the you ar the urgency and having all the facts or as many of the facts as can you at your disposal? >> a good prosecutor not only is a good investigator and good at building a case but knows when to stop investigating and bring charges. and i saw a lot of people over my career who are afraid to pull the trigger on doing that. the difference here is as you say, it's so much more complicated. it's also in this political environment and they get to talk every day and mix that up. i think that is so different from the mueller investigation. the biggest one is trump gets out there and tries to say something and do his talking point. most of them are lies if not all of them. and instead of silence or just, you know, democrats, congressional democrats swhag they think is going on, we now

have eviden evidence and facts coming out that show the lies. the republican talking points just fall apart much more quickly. and that's why i think, one, that this is a whole different ball game for trump. and, two, that they should keep going. not forever but we're not there yet. there is so much more. and it's damaging and it it's coming out in a more productive way. >> jeffrey rosen, let me turn to you. there is the piece in the atlantic magazine. a case for making impeachment. and they talk about it as a tool, as this plastic thing. as you look back on the history here, its not a tool used a whole lot. but help us understand that. the way that it was envisioned and the way it was designed and committed. how it is used at this point in the history. >> this is a two step process. the house is representatives of the people. and they would gather the facts

and accuse the president in the name of the people and in the senate would be a neutral body, almost like the supreme court completely free of partisanship that would evaluate the facts neutrally. alexander hamilton says in federalist 63, what other body than the senate can be trusted to have the necessary impartial alt to adjudicate between the accuseded and the accuser, namely, the people. in a world of political parties and of intense partisanship in the senate, there's a real question as the house collects facts after facts and presents them to the senate, can we trust the senate to evaluate neutrally? the prospect of them dismissing the charges with a simple vote without having clear hearings completely goes in the face of what alexander hamilton and the framers expected. so we have a system set up on the expectation that there would be a neutral decider. that is not our situation right now. and that's what makes it so dramatic to find a cascade of fact after fact, day after day and to wonder in the end who

will will neutrally evaluate i had. you talk about the senate as the educator. on ninlt, i turn to you h we know that this body is not what it once was or what it was envisioned to be. people talk about it being the greatest body in the past tense now. give us your sense of the timetable. this is something we're going to talk about in a few minutes. but it is by all accounts speeding towards that to the senate taking this up. how much does that matter at this point? how much is this a tool to air all of this, to raise people's awareness of this, to raise caution to this point a moment ago and how much does that matter that second part of the tool? >> well, that's a good question. i think it's important to know that now when people say it's the world's greatest deliberative body that, is a wry statement. it is a statement about the past. when you look at the rhetoric coming from a lot of the republican senators, they're taking cues from the white house and from what president trump is saying. there is a reason his defense shifts from this isn't true to

everybody does this. they do this all the time. i'll do it on camera right now. they're essentially saying this is, well, you can call it a crime if you want. it's no the a crime. this is the job of the presidency is. that's why you have all the republican senators sounding like characters from "west world." it doesn't look like anything to me. essentially saying let's just move on this with. he is going take it up. he hasn't said they're going to have extensive trials here. the idea of, you know, a public trial in the senate is just something that no one is expecting at this point. >> jat from the eigthe gentlema eighth district joins us now from texas of all places. let's start with the text message it's we can. this trove of text messages. we were talking about how that shaped or reshaped the inquiry that is underway right now of mr. chairman. and we hear, we see reported there is more to come. this is just the beginning of more documents, more witnesses to come forward. really only heard from one witness. help us understand what is am coming next. tell us how this investigation is going to proceed.

>> the more we learn, the more troubling things become. what is clear is that the president engaged in serious wrongdoing. >> at the same time, they withheld $391 million in military and economic aid from ukraine. that is a textbook abuse of power. it undermines our national security and the integrity of our election. we're going to continue to follow the facts, apply the law, be guided by the constitution and present the truth to the american people. >> let's play this out. say that this would be whistle-blowers watching the show this morning, the one reported on in the "new york times" this morning by adam goldman and michael schmitt. what is your message to him or her? as they talk about treason and all tspectors raised here, what is the advice to the

whistle-blower? >> the president continues to be reckless. we want to be sure that current whistle-blower and any whistle-blower moving forward is protected, given all of the condition that's have been laid out in statute or customer as it relates to encouraging americans to come forward when they uncover evidence of wrongdoing to present that information through the appropriate channels as has been done and making sure that the safety and security of their family is ensured. we're going to make sure that happens. that is a concern of speaker pelosi. that is the concern of adam schiff. that is the concern of the house democratic caucus. >> i look at what we've seen from the white house press secretary of communications director diminishing the investigation that is underway. the lack of cooperation that we have seen from the white house. there is talk of this letter that white house is supposedly written going to deliver to you and your colleagues on capitol hill. saying they're not going to cooperate with subpoenas in this investigation. what's your response to that.

what is your response those that say here we go. nothing has changed. >> well, in evidence of trump's wrongdoing, we have the rough transcript and july 25th phone call between donald trump and the ukrainian president. we have the fact that $391 million in military and economic aid that had been approved, david, on a bipartisan basis. they're without explanation. we know that on at least two occasions, majority leader mitch mcconnell reached out to the white house to ask what had happened to the aide. he couldn't get an answer. there is an explanation. we also know and they moved from a normal server with calls like that are retained to secure server reserve.

and so the current white house obstruction is par for the course. and if there is too high, why are they hiding the information from the american people. >> just go ahead and have the vote already, why are we doing this and not having the vote? what are you sa ig ying to them. >> as my elders would say, it's time to put up or shut up. >> yeah. >> yeah, the obfuscation between the house and senate republicans is extraordinary. they claim to be the party of national security. with he have a situation right now where the president's reckless behavior undermines the national security of the american people. you have the same situation that ukraine is currently under attack by russian backed separatists. ukraine is a friend. russia is a foe. ukraine is a democracy, russia is a dictatorship. you have military aid allocated on the bipartisan basis and then withheld without justification

and the republicans are running around with their hair on fire arguing about process issues. it's ridiculous. >> last question here to you, what lessons have you learned from the mueller investigation? you are talking a bit about that on the show. this is something different. and, yet, there are those who will say that at times democrats lost control of that narrative. as we push forward here with this investigation with this inquiry, what assurance do you have this is difference this time around? this is focused and the message is clear? >> we already have an extraordinary amount of information that is in the public domain that provides evidence that the president has abused his power. and that is a significant difference in terms of the way in which the mueller investigation unfolded. as speaker pelosi indicated, we're going to proceed expeditiously and proceed fairly and comprehensively and make it clear to the american people this is about betrayal. this is about abuse of power.

this is about national security. this is about the undermining of the integrity of our elections. and this is about the united states constitution. >> congressman tim jeffries, chairman of the house democratic caucus, thank you very much for the time on this busy saturday morning. my thanks to jeffrey rose enfor joining rosen for joining us as well. laverne cox is going to be here to speak us with. plus, republicans feeling the pressure to see who is going against the president wloshgs is standing with him & many that prefer to say nothing at all. st prefer to say nothing at all >> the constitution gives the accused the right to remain silent. and clearly, donald trump has never read the constitution. great riches will find you th. when liberty mutual

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the impeachment is looming through on the investigation. trump doubled down on the request for foreign governments and investigate the political rivals. yesterday he tweeted as the president of the united states i have an absolute right, perhaps even a duty to investigate or have investigated corruptionen that would include asking for suggesting other countries to help us out. the chief investigators in the impeachment inquiry, chairman of the house permanent select committee adam schiff responded with a tweet of his own saying it comes down to this. we cut through the denials, deflections, nonsense, donald trump believes he can pressure a

foreign nation to help him politically. it's his right. every republican in congress has to decide is he right? hillary clinton has also weighed in. here's what she told my colleague this week. >> we need some republicans to step up. and the fact that they're letting this man run rough shot over our constitution, over separation of powers, over checks and balances, over the rule of law, absolutely makes no sense to me. . >> joining us now is republican strategist michael singleton, former department of housing and urban development. great to have you with us. let me start by reading the two tweets from mitt romney. the latest tweets in courage i guess can you call them from the republican side. when the only american citizen president trump singles out for the investigation is the political opponent in in the midst of the democratic election process, it screams decreed lus. for them to investigate joe biden is wrong and appalling.

i would ask you and what? it seems like that is missing a few words there at the end. >> i mean, i agree and i'm glad my former boss has sort of taken somewhat of a position on this. . i do think it's opening up the window for some senators who are going to face an uphill battle in 2020. to have a softer mild rebuke of the president without being too strong and getting on his bad side. the and i think some of those republicans sort of appreciate that. i think at large, republicans in the senate, i think they're going to look at the odds of re-election yech re-election next year and most of them are pretty safe. and until those trends change, i think most republicans will remain on the president's side. >> this is one of those moments in american history that requires a soft and mild rebuke. >> right? >> yeah, that might be bad. >> brings up this rhetorical trick in the town hall. there is a light condemnation of

of what happened here and then a pivot. ben sass, another republican senator, gave a statement to the paper in omaha. was critical of what the president had to say about china and then quickly pivoted to making the attack on adam schiff. soft and mild? >> look, the president of the united states is a walking, talking national security threat. what he said on national television on friday was a crime. fingers crossed, republicans do the right thing here. i think they've been given enough chances. they're stepping out. first. when you're first, you have all of the arrows and darts pointed at you. he is not the recipient of a trump tweet. that is so scary for all of and i also think that he's in a very

safe state. so i mean, it's not like he's risking re-election in utah if he says, hey, the crime the president committed on national television should not happen. and as a republican who cares about national security, we need to take this deadly seriously. that's how serious it is. >> i go back to what the former secretary said. you have members of the house, republican members of the house requiring. one could infer if a reason for doing that is this. her point is that's not enough to ride off into the private sector sunset is not enough when can you speak out against what is happening. >> certainly telling that a lot of the people retiring or who have recently retired haven't said that much or have not at least explicitly come out in favor of even an inquiry. i think we can look back about 11 days now, 10 days to i avery telling moment. that is when the nevada republican on a conference call with reporters essentially said i'm in favor of investigating and seems like something bad may have happened. we should go down the road of

seeing if there is something bad. a report said he's in favor of the impeachment inquiry. that's what this was. he had to walk it back. there was enormous amount of -- it was essentially an explosion of news. much republicans immediately condemned him. he said whoa, i'm not calling for impeachment here. that experience spooked a ton of other republican lawmakers both in the senate and the house. the they saw this and said we can't even say an investigation is okay. so you have a bunch of them essentially trying to condemn this lightly. but they're terrified of the backlash. >> i hear you agreeing with that. i see you nodding. i want to ask about strength in numbers. you look at democratic support for the impeachment, there is a sea change moment when the freshmen congresswomen with national security backgrounds rallied together and wrote the open-ed and backed it. and to the great point that there were other groups, other freshmen congress mann advocating for impeachment early on. they were being heavily criticized for it. but my point is there is power in strength and numbers.

pt why don't we see that on the republican side? if what we're seeing goes against what republicans have historically, why is it easier to be the subject of a tweet if i'm the subject of that tweet with four or five other people? >> look, david, i think the president's actions here are obviously unwarranteded. i think we have to look into this. i think most republicans in private would actually agree. i think if republicans can in some kind of way vote for an inquiry without their names being public as one strategist stated, a majority probably would. but keep in mind, david, donald trump still has 88% approval within the republican party. i think when you think about the dynamics and the senate from my understanding, from a few of my former colleagues, the majority of leaders are going to attempt to rush this through to a vote or get into christmas. we'll get into 2020 and guess what? it's february 3rd, the iowa caucus. the hope is if you rush this thing, the dynamics for most people will change because they'll start thinking about the primary process. the media will start focusing on the primary process.

the dynamics are intriguing. they hope people's short attention spans will potentially benefit them going into the fall and going into 2020. i think they may be pashlly correct, depending on how democrats hand this will thing once they take a vote. >> lastly to you, mimi. this is a moral moment. we talked in the past about the need to speak up, why people aren't speaking up. the political calculus versus the moral calculus. here we are at a very pivotal moment. again, tell us about the crimes that have been committed. reminding us of the crimes committed on television. and in plain sight of everyone here. your reaction to that. the fact that, yes, we're talking about that but it is also about the election coming up and the iowa caucuses and a compressed timetable that is solely in a political context. >> i look at this through a slightly different lens. i spent 16 years getting people to cooperate in cases building cases on people who literally were risking their lives, right, in mob cases, in organized crime cases, in drug cases, in gang cases. they had to do that some of

them, yes, because they wanted to get a lighter sentence. but largely because they needed to do the right thing. and we would talk to them about that. and that was ultimately what we get people to get on a stand and tell the truth. because they want to do what the right thing. they wanted to make sure that these crimes that had happened to other people weren't going to happen again. if people can do that and risk their lives to do the right thing, these republicans can do the right thing now in this moment when our country literally depends on it. and it sound like high penitentiarybly but it's not. >> there are lives on the line. we have to be clear this say national security threat. there are children in cages on the southern border because of this administration. and so lives are already on the line. and so to say that it's hole whoelly differe wholly different is not true. >> they're still going to get their pensions no matter what they say and what happens. jump in here. >> i was going to say i agree we're at a point of moral no

return. i do think republicans are going to have to sort of make a decision here. do you follow your moral beliefs or do you make the political calculus? >> always good to see you. >> thank you, david. >> up next, as president trump and allies continue to make baseless allegations against the democratic front-runner, joe biden fires back in his most forceful way yet with a $6 million ad buy. >> you're not going to destroy me. you're not going to destroy my family. i don't care how much money you spend, mr. president, or how dirty the attacks get. we have to do more than beat donald trump. we have to beat him like a drum. donald trump we have to beat him like d arum. ♪when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion,♪

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is the justice department investigating joe biden? that you have to ask attorney general barr. but i can tell you just as an observer, what i saw bide ep do with his son, he is pillaging the countries and he's hurting us. >> this is "up." the president continued his attacks on former vice president joe biden and son hunter. the president's claim surrounding the involvement with the ukraine energy company were

did debunct. he was paid $50,000 a month. but claims that hunter biden's work was under investigation by then ukrainian prosecutor are false. they've been investigated long before hunter biden belonged to the board. while did he threaten to withhold a billion dollars of aid from them it was not in an effort to protect his son from an investigation. he was not alone. biden and several western nations pushed for this because he was not doing enough to thwart corruption generally in ukraine. biden responded to the president's attack saying the idea of trump attacking anyone's integrity is a joke. let me turn to you on this point. i'm going through the history. tlcht are critics of that. they say they do this because it's in the water once again. but the focus now shifts from ukraine to china. and more of the red herrings are being raised as well.

i keep pointing to the piece in "the new york times." it goes to that war room. that biden war room. don't interview rudy giuliani. that is not something that media organizations sh you do. joe biden brought up questions about this and he doesn't want to talk about it. then you have this big ad buy. $6 million to put an ad on in four early voting states. what should the biden camp be doing at this point? there has been some time where they've been figuring that out. this is a candidate that has not wanted to engage with the issues. we know this is a family matter and something he's not keen to talk about. >> so it's tricky. as you said, are it's a family matter. that puts it in different box than, you know, a regular run of your mill campaign issue that would become a controversy. i think in this moment he needs to do more interviews. but needs to sit down and really answer thoughtful questions. he rarely does interviews on the campaign trail. i don't have any insights into

why that is. but i think that would be helpful. because then at least you have him on the record in more than one setting pushing back on donald trump's narrative. they're lying to everyone who lives here in this country we had to wait many years to get the results of the mueller investigation. i think in this moment is helpful for them to push back with the facts in every setting they can find, every forum they can find. >> let's talk about bringing up what happened with the mueller investigation. certainly a lot of people saying we saw this in 2015, 2016 with hillary clinton's e-mails. do you see the two things as and what is there to learn from how that played out and how do you see the biden campaign adjusting

based on that? >> there are obvious parallels. the i think joe biden should be doing a lot of interviews. some people -- >> new york magazine political correspondent. the. >> yeah. >> however, you can understand the hi hesitancy. they don't want to do also is get into a situation where they can create headlines that essentially say joed biden and donald trump are at it over corruption. they say you should talk about donald trump's children o doing what hunter biden is accused of doing. that is a good question. joe biden doesn't want to get into that back and forth. as we've seen throughout this campaign is trying to strike a specific posture. he is above the fray of what's going on. he's trying to make the case, lins, donald trump is scared of me and that's why he's going after me. but he's not going try to engablg in the specifics here. he doesn't want to give them

another airing. they're not happy we have to go through the fact checks on air every day. we do repeat what donald trump had to say. but tend of the day, the truth is it is out there and it's not necessarily clear at this point that the push back they've done is sufficient. it may be. joe biden is still in most polls, not all of them, but in most of them, winning. democratic voters do tend to be behind him and tend to think what donald trump is doing is a little bit ridiculous. so we can't -- it's not responsible to say it is this, you know, the death null of joe biden's campaign? >> lastly, biden could push back. look at the trump family. look at all their involvements. look at the laundry list of companies and entities they had and all that they were mired in. the is the mistake for him not

to be highlighting that? something certainly highlighted by many people early on in the administration as well. is it in some effect a missed opportunity for him not doing that at this point? >> yeah. on the one hand, you want the answer to be what i think biden is trying to do. look at what trump is doing. they're trying to distract from that and smear an opponent. on the other hand this is politics, not a courtroom. in it a courtroom, a judge would say, you yeah, that stuff is not admissible. here it is. it's in the narrative. i'm afraid it can get way from them. but one thing i need to say because you played that clip of trump talking about the justice department, part of why trump can get away with this, with these, you know, i'm doing things based on corruption and biden is corrupt. we don't have a fully functioning department of justice right now. we have an attorney general with a severe conflict of interest both with respect to this ukraine stuff and other things.

. and there should have been a criminal investigation opened already as to the phone calls that trump made to the ukrainian president and lots of other things. fact that there isn't, just gives more trump of a talking point. trump is dangerous. but trump with the power of bill barr and the department of justice behind him which is what it looks like is incredibly dangerous. >> bill bar around the world here. pressing to help with the russia investigation. thank you very much. the white house nunss more restrictions on immigration making it harder for legal immigrants tom could the united states. plus, draconian suggestions by donald trump on how to keep immigrants out of the country. george takei joins us next. coun. george takei joins us next must be hot out there, huh? not especially. -[ slurping continues ] -what you drinking? gasoline. right, but i mean, what's in the cup?

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welcome back.

shoot migrants in the legs to slow them down the president once suggested privately after he said publicly to shoot migrants that threw rocks at border agents. another detail from that book, privately, the press often talked about fortifying a wall with a water filled trench stocked with snakes or alligators seeking them to seek a cost estimate. here's how the president responded to what's in that book earlier this week. >> i said i'm tough on the border, but i'm not that tough. >> now breaking overnight, the trump administration anoupsing a new policy saying they will be denied visas unless they can prove they have health insurance or the means to cover medical costs. this alongside the efforts to stymie low income applicants. the proclamation does not apply to unaccompanied children, asylum seekers and those with visas. joining us is george takei. it's a graphic memoir. it is an illustrative memoir.

i want to have you react to what i just read there. what we saw over the course of the last week. they suggested off handedly and how seriously that was taken by members of the staff. they thought it would be reasonable or something he was intent on doing, something so clearly cruel and counter to what this country stands for? >> it's in character. and it is unreasonable. this administration starts from the major premise that they don't want people of color in this country. he'll do anything and everything, talking about something as extreme as building a mote and putting the stocking it with alligators and poisonous snakes or having blades on top of fence that's cut into human flesh, they'll go to every extreme, every possibility to keep people of color from coming

in. >> this new policy change that happened last night is going to p happen soon. it was announced last night. it is designed by stephen miller and colleagues in the white house to send a message to those who would think to come to this country. there are now new barriers and new prohibitions to doing that. even if one were to do that in a legal capacity to come about in the way that they're supposed to do it. how effective is the president's rhetoric? how effective are the policy proposals and changes at changing our perception globally? >> it is a preposterous policy. it is an irrational policy. it is clearly racist and it is seen abroad by people of color, countries, nations of color as a discriminatory policy. he thinks it will be a

deterrent. it is an unconstitutional policy as well. so it will eventually, and that's why we are speaking out on it, it will be defeated. and he will be impeached. >> he is saying it's unconstitutional and this is another example of something where it's put out there. it astounds a lot of people. there will be legal challenges in in the coming days to it. talk about the effectiveness of that. we're talking about messaging here and just by introducing a policy like this a message is sent to folks around the world. >> yeah. i think in a lot of ways like many things with trump, this isn't about what actually becomes law or, you know, is upheld by a court to constitutional challenges. it's about a message he can put out to his base to, you know, dehumanize an entire group of people. and, you know, in that sense, it work. i mean, if it we lived in a world where, you know, you had normal channels happening of

proposing policy, court challenges, we get rulings, then this would be very different. but he doesn't care about any of. that the same way he doesn't care about whether his claims about hunter biden hold up. it's all just out there for immediate consumption. it does work to a certain degree. i think now a lot of it is catching up with him. because of the things we've been talking about this morning. that real facts come out to counter it in real time. >> you spent a lot of your life thinking about your personal history. you being detained in one of the camps when you were a child and being othered, i think. there is a systemic policy of othering in a group of people in this country. this is a president who doesn't read history. proudly says he is not somebody that reads books or pays attention to history. talk about the consequences of that. how you have navigated this personally. it's in the book, of course. but the importance of doing that, of learning from what missteps were taken, what wrong turns were taken in the past?

in this country. the. >> i was 5 years old. i just celebrated my 5th birthday when my parents got me up very early in the morning, my brother was four years old and our baby sister, an infant and dressed us hurriedly. we were told to wait in the living room. so he and i were just gazing out the front window when we saw soldiers coming up our driveway. stomped up the front porch and with fists banged on the door. it was a terrifying sound. my father came out from if the bedroom where they were doing some last minute packing. and answered the door. and literally at gun point, we were ordered out of our home. my mother came out carrying our baby sister and a duffel bag and tears were streaming down her cheeks. this was our introduction to

american justice. we were incarcerated for the duration of the war with all sorts of assaults on my parents. about to but to 5-year-old me, my real memories are fantastic memories. the we were taken from southern california to the swamps of arkansas which was a fantastic place. the bayou came into the -- beyond the bar bed wire fence ad there were black fish that i could catch and watch. and one morning they had bumps on their sides. the next morning, it was bigger. and then it turned into legs. and they lost their tails. much and those black wiggly fish escaped by -- from my jar by hopping out of it. imagine call. i mean this was the kind of thing that i was experiencing in

reality. but the parallel experience for my parents, barbed wire fence after having been stripped of everything, my father's business, his bank account, our home, stripped of everything, impoverished and imprisoned. century towers with machine guns pointed at us when i made the night runs from our barracks to the latrine, search lights followed me. it was a concentration camp. but the 5-year-old me, i thought it was nice that they lit the way for me to pee. >> wow. >> but for my parents, it was an invasive humiliating light. and then a year into imprisonment, government realizes there is a wartime manpower shortage. and here were all the young people that they could have had categorized as enemy aliens, we

were neither. many right after pearl harbor had rushed to their recruitment centers to volunteer to serve in the u.s. military. this act of patriotism was answered with a slap on the face. they were denied military service. and categorized as enemy aliens and imprisoned. the but now they needed us. and so they wanted to draft the young men and women. how to justify drafting out of a concentration camp. their solution was equally irrational as the internment itself. they came out with a loyalty questionnaire demanding loyalty. two questions were so offensive and so outrageous and so irrational that all ten camps were turned into turmoil. question 27 asked, will you bear arms to defend the united states of america? this being asked of my mother

who had three young children, by that time i was 6. she was being asked to abandon her children and her family and bear arms to defend the nation that is imprisoning her family. question 28 asked -- one sentence with two conflicting ideas. it asked, will you swear your loyalty to the united states and foreswear your loyalty to the united states of america? we're americans. we had no loyalty to the emperor. my mother was born in sacramento, california. my father was a san franciscoian. the children were born in los angeles. and for the government to assume that we had an inborn racial loyalty to the emperor was offensive. and so if you answered no, i don't have a loyalty to the

united states, that no applied to the first bar of the first sentence. it was outrageous. and my parents answered no to both questions and they were categorized as disloyal. and we were transferred to a harsher camp. >> we have about a minute left so quickly here i just want to get your perspective on what's happening now and you mentioned your mother being indrama of the you probably thought we have moved beyond that. . it was a dramatic and terrible moment in our history that we have moved beyond. as you've been looking at what's happening at the southern border, your reaction to how close we've come to that and i awe poll jazz we have such little time. >> beyond that and went below that. it's a new go tes k low. we were always together with our parents. what's happening there now, children will being torn away from their parents and put in cages, overcrowded cages with

human filth and then to really underscore the evil, randomly some children are taken out of there and sent to the far northern states away from the southern border to deliberately take them as far away as possible and when the courts order them to bring them together with their parents this government is so incompetent that they can't find the children nor the parents to put them together. it is a new low that we're heading now. >> thank you very much for being here. congratulations on the book as well. >> and this is the book. >> hold it out. >> well done sir. >> i have no shame. >> there you go. turning now to the 2020 race, bernie sanders is back on his feet after suffering a heart attack while campaigning in las vegas. the campaign revealing what happened yesterday after keeping the media in the dark for three days. senator sanders plans to be part

of the next presidential debate in october. elizabeth warren not far behind. joining us from charleston, south carolina, just help us understand what the circumstances are now and i understand the senator plans to be on the stage in ohio that next debate but what have we learned about a myoocardial infarction. >> reporter: we know he'll be heading to vermont today or tomorrow. you saw that video of senator sanders leaving the hospital yesterday afternoon. he was smiling. he had a fist in the air and he told reporters that he was feeling great and his deputy campaign manager says after he left the hospital he went to a park. he and jane went on a little walk and it was there that he posted a video or recorded a video that was later posted to twitter where he said he was feeling much better and committed to being back on the

campaign trail. we know he'll be off for some time now. he'll rest up a little bit. the date is that october debate. you know that october 15th debate. they say he will be on that stage so we'll continue if he gets on -- or if he comes back on the trail sooner or if that will be the first time we'll see him, but i'll tell you as senator sanders is resting the campaign is trying to show that the campaign is still operating. they're still mobilizing. he'll have a top surrogate here at the blue gem, there will be a surrogate in iowa and new hampshire as well. they're also celebrating that fund raising news and that ad that was cancelled in the state of iowa, that's coming back. a campaign official telling us that he'll be back on the air in iowa on tuesday. so despite senator sanders being down, recovering from this heart attack, we're seeing his campaign trying to show that he's still there and he'll still be a force in this campaign.

>> let me turn to you, gabe, lastly. we knew that he was in the hospital. we didn't know what was at play here. i think that's something a lot of people are seizing on here as he talks about the campaign still working, being functional. >> right, well it's extremely important to let the american people know what's happening with someone this prominent who's running to be the leader of the free world. i think one of the problems that a lot of folks had with the way this was handled was there was no real information for three days and i understand it's sensitive and it's very difficult to get a lot of this information out in a responsible way. saw a lot of objections that this was revealed late on a friday evening that it was a heart attack but i do think it's totally fair that the sanders campaign has been trying to figure out the degree to which he will be able to return to the campaign trail and when. i think that there is a legitimate concern though that this was the details of this were held back for three days. >> thank you very much.

coming up at the top of the next hour joy reid has former u.s. ambassador to russia with the latest on what's going on with ukraine. n what's going on with ukraine. everyone uses their phone differently.

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>> so i don't want to comment on text messages. >> good morning. welcome to a.m. joy. well republican congressman would like to not comment please about text messages particularly when those text messages reveal the extent and the brazenness of the attempted dirt for aid shakedown of a u.s. ally, ukraine carried out by a rag tag team of tump associates including a hotel magnate who became a u.s. ambassador with no qualifications other than giving $1 million to the trump inauguration. the u.s. envoy to ukraine and other state department officials. that pressure scheme is now the barrelling train driving donald trump toward impeachment. mr. meadows would perhaps also like to avoid discussing the breaking news overnight that there may soon be another whistle blower.

an intelligent official who may be ready to file a complaint against trump. after helping to corroborate the first whistle blower's allegations which are now backed by those damning text messages released on thursday. they reseal how trump's minions sought to leverage military aid in order to put pressure on ukraine. those involved in the messages include volcker who until recently was the u.s. special envoy to ukraine. bill taylor, the u.s. envoy to ukraine. sondeland and on the ukraine side, andrier mack, an aid to ukranian president. the morning of the phone call between trump and zelensky, volcker texted saying heard from white house assuming president z