defense heading into what may be an impeachment of the current president. what you saw there on thursday is going to ricochet for a while. that's a final thought, as always, thank yous f for joinin me, on the beat with ari melber, up next, it's "hardball". a second whistleblower, let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews, the president is struggling to defend his conduct and there are new signs that more evidence about wrong doing may be on the way. nbc news has confirmed that the legal team representing the first whistleblower now also represents another person who is coming forward. according to nbc sources, that second whistleblower has quote firsthand knowledge of the facts surrounding trump's phone call

with ukrainian president zelensky, which is at the center of the impeachment inquiry. that news prompted another round of misleading criticism from the president who said quote, the first so-called secondhand information whistleblower got my phone conversation almost completely wrong. so now word is they are going to the bench and another whistleblower is coming in from the deep state. contrary to that tweet from the president, however, numerous revelations over the past two weeks have actually corroborated the whistleblower's account, including some admissions from the president himself. meanwhile, house committees today issued subpoenas to the pentagon and the office of management and budget for documents about the president's directive in mid july to freeze u.s. military support to ukraine. that is the aid that u.s. diplomats believed was being used as rev language leverage ts reelection. i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign.

amid all of this late today, the president insisted his poll numbers are up. he called the impeachment inquiry a hoax, and he suggested that house speaker nancy pelosi and house intelligence chairman adam schiff should be investigated. >> now, i just see a poll that just came out where i'm up massively with independent voters. i don't know if it's this or because of the hoax, you know, that's going on with nancy pelosi, and her friend adam schiff. he's another beauty. i'll tell you what, they should really be looked at very strongly because what they did is unthinkable. what they did to this country is unthinkable. >> we'll have more in a little while about what the polls do and don't say about trump and impeachment. for now, i'm joined by phillip bump a political reporter with the "washington post," paul butler is a former federal prosecutor and elise jordan is a

former bush administration aide in the white house and the state department. thanks to all of you for being with us. yamiche, let me start with you, with the news we lead the show with tonight, a second whistleblower emerging, our reporting here at nbc suggesting this is someone who says they have more information about that phone call, that july phone call between trump and the ukrainian president. what do you know about this and what the white house is preparing for here? >> well, i've been e-mailing with the attorney for these now two whistleblowers and what we see here is the president really his push back on this first whistleblower really falling apart. the president initially saying the whistleblower had the complete facts of the call wrong. he then said this person had secondhand knowledge and none of what he was saying was true. now we have a second whistleblower coming forward saying i actually have firsthand knowledge. we now have democrats trying to come up with a solution to try to figure out how to get this information into the hands of congress with more detail. i'm told that democrats are even

thinking about putting the whistleblower off campus and have an audio only testimony or even having some sort of testimony where their face is going to be obscured. what you have is an impeachment inquiry that's forging ahead and a president who is making excuses and really trying to defend himself, but most of the things that he's trying to use to defend himself are simply falling apart unfortunately. >> within the last few minutes, the president was asked about the second whistleblower who we're talking about right now, let's watch what he had to say. >> are you concerned with the second whistleblower. >> not at all because the call was a perfect call. you had stenographers, people who took it down exactly. it was a perfect call. it's just a scam. this is a scam by the democrats to try and win an election that they're not going to win in 2020. >> phillip bump, talking about this first whistleblower, the one whose complaint we have read and there's the transcript of the phone conversation, the president not expressing any reservations about the contents,

he says it's perfect. we can match up what is in that complaint from the whistleblower with what's in the rough transcript where the president himself doesn't have much issue with. he's saying these two things are totally different. what is his analysis of this? >> what he's saying is the presentation by the whistleblower of there having been pressure in the call is the thing that is inaccurate, right, that by itself is a claim that can be assessed by observers. obviously there's a power differential between the president of the united states and the president of ukraine which can influence the amount of pressure the president of ukraine feels. that's the angle they're tacking, was there pressure applied by donald trump. that's where the second whistleblower becomes interesting, if this is someone with firsthand knowledge who can say what in the room or in the moment people thought trump was trying to do with president zelensky, that can shift the public's understanding of how much pressure was being applied. >> there is some anticipation whatever side you're on on this, people want to know what the

second whistleblower might be putting out there, but when you have the transcript, when you have the public comments from the president, the president out there the other day saying ukraine and china, i hope you look into biden. when you have the fact of the suspended military aid, how significant is that just with all of this other information that's now on the public record? >> well, i think yamiche nailed it. it is basically destroying the president's defense to have this second whistleblower come forward and just blow up that, oh, this wasn't a firsthand recollection, oh, well, this is someone who actually has firsthand knowledge, so i think it's quite significant in that their defense is just swerving and veering all over the place because donald trump has been caught in a lie. >> this question of the whistleblower to the first whistleblower at least, and maybe potentially the second one, we will see what happens there, but as yamiche mentioned, democrats are weighing new precautions to keep the individual's item secret according to "the washington post" here.

house democrats are quote, considering testimony at a remote location and possibly obscuring the individual's appearance and voice. extraordinary moves to prevent trump's congressional allies from revealing the identity. paul, let me first ask you, there's two parts to this. let me first ask you, in terms of the justification here. democrats saying they are concerned that the president's allies maybe even potentially the president himself would reveal this. is that a legitimate concern? >> i think so. when we have heard the president say he needs to talk to the whistleblower. he needs to cross examine him and the president has alluded to the punishment for people who commit treason, which is execution, so i think there are legitimate concerns about the whistleblower's safety. the concern is once the cat is out of the bag, once the whistleblower's identification is revealed, then there's nothing that could be done. that person might be able to recover some kind of civil damages but his or her life could be in jeopardy. >> okay.

so you say there's a justification on the democrat's part, potentially to take these actions they're outlining here. here's the flip side. this is what lindsey graham is saying. if this goes through, there's an impeachment in the house, a trial in the senate, a fundamental tenant of due process is you face your accuser. if the whistleblower's allegations are turned into an impeachment article, it is imperative the whistleblower be interviewed in public, underoath and cross examined. >> here's why senator graham is wrong. the whistleblower is not a fact witness. admittedly, that person heard about what was going on from other high level people in the white house and the intelligence community who were very concerned that the president of the united states was trying to shake down the ukrainian leader, holding up military aid that you crane desperately needed for survival as a nation state in order for trump to get help on his political campaign. so the people who would be subject to being witnessed and cross examined are people who have direct knowledge of what

happened, including people who were on the telephone call. but this whistleblower performed a public service by bringing this vital information to the american people. we should be thanking his or her, we should not be threatening his or her with exposure, and again, in trump's view, some kind of punishment. >> there's also some new reporting that far from welcoming the idea of impeachment, trump says it will tarnish his legacy, axios reports that during a call of house republicans on friday, the president privately acknowledged that quote the impeachment is a bad they think to have on your resume. and despite describing his call with the ukrainian president as perfect, as you just heard a few minutes ago, it is clear that trump now knows it is problematic. that is according to axios, the president is attempting to pin the blame on energy secretary rick perry. trump told house republicans according to axios, quote, the only reason i made the call was because rick asked me to.

yamiche, go to you on this, you mentioned there have been some conflicting messages that have come out of the white house. on the one hand, the president calls this a perfect phone call. he has framed this as his duty to try to track down, he says to try to track down corruption, also happens to involve his potential 2020 poenopponent, bu there's reporting that he's trying to brush this off to republicans as saying, i didn't even want to make this phone call. >> based on my reporting, this is a white house that is trying desperately to come up with some sort of strategy to push back on impeachment. they haven't landed on anything. you have the president saying the call was perfect, then saying the whistleblower is wrong, then when the transcript comes out, they are faced with the fact that the president says i need you to do me a favor. the president is doing what he has done in other case, who else can he blame for this. in the case of stormy daniels and the hush money payments, the michael cohen, the president continued to be the president and didn't go to jail. paul manafort is in jail,

someone who's close to him, goes to jail. people around the president had to face consequences but the president himself hasn't had to do that. you see him saying, well, rick perry is the reason i was on the call. it was the same thing he did with mike pence, someone should be talking to mike pence about the meeting he had with the president of ukraine. house democrats have demanded documents from mike pence to show what were you talking about with the president of ukraine. i think what democrats are doing here, is remain still, laser focus on president trump, and that's what's making him nervous. he understands that democrats have a simple thing they can tell the american people, the president was trying to pressure the president of ukraine for his own political gain and the white house based on my reporting is still searching for a definitive way to defend the president against that claim. >> phillip, it's interesting, the idea of the president telling republicans, hey, i didn't want to make this call. rick perry was up to something. he put me on the call with them. there's the call itself and if you want to try to frame it from trump's standpoint, maybe i said

some clumsy things on this call i didn't want to be on but simultaneously you have the suspended military aid and the mystery that accompanied that over the summer. something i didn't put much thought into. >> if one is to assume the only reason president trump was on the phone call is because he's getting strong armed by rick perry, you have to ignore the fact that rudy giuliani had spent months agitating for this exact investigation. threatened to go to ukraine in may, done numerous interviews in which he mentioned this. trump himself mentioned a biden investigation earlier on in the process. it may be the case that rick perry said, hey, i'm concerned about a relationship with ukraine because of this particular energy issue, you should probably give him a call, but it's clearly not the case that rick perry did anything outside of what was going on to get president trump to do the exact request he made in the call to investigate this bizarre theory about 2016 hacking and investigate the bidens. >> it may be that perry and giuliani wanted the call for

different reasons. under the growing pressure, the president continued his ongoing twitter outbursts this weekend among other things. he attacked house speaker nancy pelosi saying she is guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors and even treason. he adds that the speaker and other democrats should be quote immediately impeached. this is the second tweet over the weekend that appeared to show the president is not aware that members of congress can't be impeached or maybe is aware, and wants to circulate the term or the word anyway. elise what do you make of what you're seeing from the president on twitter and i think a second part of that is republicans watching this, what do they make of it? >> one, i would say that this is classic donald trump, just throw spaghetti at the wall, and see what sticks and what you can get traction on no matter how ridiculous, and to the second point, i think that republicans even though they won't say it publicly, are increasingly uncomfortable with the level of instability.

this is going, you know, this is just not a great look for them to be, you don't want to be mccarthy on the sunday show, and just blatantly lie and looking like a fool, trying to defend the indefensible because donald trump is going to change his story in 30 minutes via twitter or the press. no one is in a strong position at all to defend donald trump. >> we mentioned on the time poll, impeachment, this is a political process. it's not a legal process, but something political by definition would be the president tweeting making all these accusations, putting all of it out there, does that intersect in any way with this impeachment process. >> you know, i think it will be up to the republicans in the senate kwhowho would be the decg factor in terms of whether he's removed from office, assuming the house impeaches, that's like being charged. if 20 republican senators, that's the number it would take to join with all the democrats to remove him from office, their calculus would be is this a high crime or a misdemeanor. if they're going by the

constitution, the answer is absolutely yes. this is a breach of the president's fiduciary duty. we already have compelling evidence that he did this. so some senators yesterday, senator kamala harris said on msnbc that she doesn't need anymore evidence. she has enough evidence before her right now to vote to remove the president from office. >> i'm just curious, again, it's political. so it's all the sort of rules of normal legal procedure don't really apply. it's a very unique process but from the standpoint of a senator like harris, you mentioned, being a juror, essentially that's what you are in the senate, should you be making that proclamation beforehand or take the posture of i am a juror, i have some notions going into this, but i want to hear what each side says before a guilty or not guilty. >> a question will be what's the defense, and we see the trump folks flailing. first they said, i didn't do it, and then they say, well, maybe i did it, but it's not a crime. today they said the energy secretary made me do it, so we

know the president has practically confessed twice now. once in that trelephone call an once in his remarks to china. he doesn't see a problem with asking foreign nationals to help him out politically. the fact is that's a crime. it is a high crime and snee misdemeanor under the constitution and it's a crime in the federal political code. it's soliciting help from a foreign national. >> yamiche alcindor, phillip bump, elise jordan, thanks to you. the president calls the outreach, calling for the people of utah to impeach romney. his ire may be one reason so few republicans speak out, and most of those who do back him like wisconsin senator ron johnson. >> senator, it's pretty clear we're only dealing with the facts that we have not the facts that you wish they had.

>> i can't get the answers and i can't get the answers, the american people can't get the answers. something pretty fishy happened during the 2016 campaign, and in the transition, the early part of the trump spresidency, and w still don't know. >> we do know the answers. >> plus, we're going to head over to the big board to look at the latest polling on impeachment. there's a big difference right now compared to what we saw with both bill clinton and richard nixon and some alarming trending for president trump, and trump is facing criticism even from his own allies for his decision to withdraw u.s. military forces from the turkish border with northern syria. we have much more to get to. stay with us. syria we have much more to get to. stay with us nd you when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar?

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simple. easy. awesome. call, click or visit a store today. welcome back to "hardball" president trump spent part of his weekend unleashing attacks on one of his fellow republicans. utah senator mitt romney, in a slew of tweets, the president wrote quote i'm hearing that the great people of utah are

considering their vote for their pompous senator mitt romney to be a big mistake. hash tag, impeach mitt romney. on friday, romney criticized the president over his calls for ukraine and china to investigate his potential political rival, calling them quote wrong and appalling. romney is one of the only elected republicans to call out the president on this. others have dismissed trump's recent comments calling on china to get involved as a joke. >> do you think it's okay for president trump to ask china to launch an investigation of joe biden and connor biden. >> he plays it like a violin. that's not a real request. >> george, do you think he was serious about thinking that china is going to investigate the biden family? >> why can't you answer yes or no. do you think it's appropriate sfl. >> because i don't think that's what he did. >> i doubt if the china comment was serious to tell you the

truth. >> you watch what the president said, he's not saying china investigated. >> those lawmakers seemed confident that the president wasn't serious. his economic adviser, larry kudlow said today he's not sure. >> was the president joking or in any way not serious when he suggested that the chinese should investigate the bidens? >> i don't honestly know. i don't honestly know. >> meanwhile, "the washington post" reports the president's possible impeachment has quote triggered a reckoning in the republican party, their collective strategy is simply to survive and not make any sudden moves, according to one former senior administration official quote nobody wants to be the zebra that strays from the pack and gets gobbled up by the lion. for more i'm joined by one of the "washington post" reporters who wrote that piece we quoted from, robert costa, and mike murphy, republican strategist, and cohost of the hacks on tap podcast. thank you for being with us. robert let me start with you.

a terrific piece, you did some wonderful reporting here. take us inside the republican party in washington. i think a lot of people have been noticing the last few weeks one way that this feels different from some of these past controversies is we just haven't heard from a lot of republicans period. a lot of them aren't saying anything. what is being said behind the scenes among republicans. >> based on reporting by me and my colleague, phil rutger at the post, we find the republican party generally speaking now in bunker mode as they move toward the 2020 election. from moderates to conservatives, many republicans do not want to be out there on the front lines defending president trump's conduct with regard to his interactions with foreign leaders and the president of ukraine, and at the same time, they are fearful of his wrath, and they don't want him challenging them in a primary race, by supporting a different republican, and so they're really being quiet and treading carefully, trying to either explain away his conduct or not say much at all. >> just a quick follow up, though, what is their sense on

how long that can last. if democrats go ahead in the house and impeach the president, some form of trial has got to take place in the senate. they're going to have to go on the record at some point. how long do they think they can sort of, what's the word, hold their powder, keep their powder dry, that's the expression i'm looking for. >> the skittishness is most apparent among suburban republicans in the house in the suburbs of wisconsin and pennsylvania, places where republicans struggled in 2018 and they are worrying about struggling again in 2020, and retiring senate republicans like lamar alexander of tennessee, and those up in 2020, senator ernst of iowa. do they want to stand by president trump as they face the political winds in their own tough waraces. these are the republicans staying quiet, when i went up to senator ernst in the hallway, do you want to talk about corn and ethanol policy, and the senator

said the issue is the impeachment process, and she didn't want to engage on that. >> let's take mitt romney aside because i think he's a special case. utah is a state where trump got 13% i think it was back in the republican primaries. a lot of issues there in terms of republican voters. very cool towards trump. romney may be immune from a lot of the sort of political, when you look at the other republicans in the u.s. senate do you see any potential as this plays out, a critical number of them, any number of them will end up turning on the president and if so, where would you be looking? >> well, you're absolutely right, it's all about the primary pliolitics, you know, t new logo is not just an elephant, it's an elephant running for the tall grass. they know trump is unfit, privately they talk about it, but they're afraid of primary voters. mitt is his own man, he has a

strong compass. i think there are others. jeff flake said if it was a secret ballot, it would be 35, i would guess 30. so look, you kind of come up with the same calculus that bob did. you've got the folks from vulnerable places, purple states like colorado or lean blue states like maine, maybe even states that are declining for the gop like north carolina, arizona, so you have several members who are up in tough races where a defend trump vote by the time this thing hits the senate, if it does, which i think is more likely than not, could be real political poison, and then you have folks retiring like my old friend lamar, and you have people like ben sasse, on and off again krcritics, i think the one new factor today is the case that trump should not be there, not the impeachment case but the private opinion of republican senators case, exploded today, because of what trump did abandoning the kurds and making a toddler level geopolitical mistake in northern

syria. you're seeing mitch mcconnell out criticizing the move so the energy to do something about trump because of the damage he is doing to the country i think is higher in the senate caucus today than it was yesterday. significantly higher. >> let me ask you a basic question about your understanding of how politics works these days because i think before trump there used to be this assumption that within each party the elected officials, the senators, the governors, the folks who are on tv a lot really were influential of creating mass opinion in the party. you have this situation where privately supposedly all these republicans have doubts about trump but his approval rating with republican voters sits at 90% and keeps these other republicans from speaking out publicly. if, let's say, three, four, five republican senators came out publicly and broke with trump, do you think that would have an effect on public opinion among all republicans or would they just be immediately considered pariahs and outcasts. >> you know, i think they would be considered pariahs at first, but then people would watch and

see what happens. this is all a perception reality thing which is important in politics, trump is perceived as vulnerable. people look at the 90% numbers. in a primary, would you rather have another republican and a third of those voters desert him. as long as they perceive trump as all powerful in the party, they will act like it. if somebody punches a hole in it by acting bravely or those numbers start to decline as these issues get first, it would be a different ball game. >> inn an interview on friday, republican senator ron johnson told the "wall street journal" that he had learned from an american diplomat over the summer that the release of military aid to ukraine was contingent on ukraine opening up investigations into u.s. elections that trump wanted. johnson told the journal quote at that suggestion, i winced. my reaction was oh, god, i don't want to see those two things combined. nbc's chuck todd asked senator johnson about those comments yesterday, but things got heated. take a look. >> you ought to ask director

brennan, what did pet peter mea when he texted linda page. >> senator, what does this have to do with ukraine. senator johnson, please. can we please answer the question that i asked you instead of trying to make donald trump feel better here that you're not criticizing him. >> i'm not. >> i'm just trying to ask you a simple question of what made you wince. >> when i asked the president about that, he completely denied it. he adamantly denied it. he vehemently, angrily denied it. that's the piece of the puzzle i'm here to report today. >> robert acosta, a lot of things that could be said about that. you hear senator johnson trying to segue in part to something the president likes to talk about, the investigation the attorney general has launched into the 2016 campaign and the origins of the russia

investigation. how widely held among republican senators is that as something they're genuinely themselves interested in. is that something that animates republicans in the senate or is that something more they feel they need to humor the president on. >> it's not only something that's widely believed within the republican party that i'm covering on capitol hill, it's also an active variable right now as the gop makes its calculus. many of these republicans, when you confront them with facts about the impeachment inquiry, they start talking about the investigation of the investigation, the department of justices, both the ig investigation at d. o.j., and also attorney general barr's investigation and they say however that i.g. report pans out, and then the attorney general's report pans out on how the russia investigation was conducted, that will be factor in how they decide to handle president trump's fate should it come to an impeachment vote in the house and then a trial in the senate because they believe those things, those investigations could cloud and

inform the public thinking. >> all right. robert costa, and mike murphy, thanks to both of you for joining us. >> thank you. >> thank you. and up next, there are flashing warning signs for president trump in recent polls about impeachment, especially when you compare it to two of the recent presidents who also faced the impeachment process. over to the big board after this, you're watching "hardball." this, you're watching "hardball. there's a power in listening; it's what gives audible members an edge. it opens our minds, changes our perspective, connects us, and pushes us further. the most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories: audible. must be hot out there, huh? not especially. -[ slurping continues ] -what you drinking?

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welcome back to "hardball", president trump is the third modern president to be facing an impeachment inquiry, an impeachment push. you have richard nixon in the 1970s. bill clinton in the late 1990s and trump about a generation later is facing an impeachment inquiry. we thought we would take a look at the public opinion on this, as democrats launch the inquiry now. how does trump stack up politically, compared to clinton, nixon at roughly this same point. i think what you're going to see here, there are some ways president trump is probably in worse shape politically than both clinton and nixon. there may be one important way he's as good as clinton, or better. first of all, this is the most recent polling we have. keep in mind, the wording is very important when you see polling on impeachment these days. this is polling about the inquiry. democrats say they are going to do an inquiry. that is not necessarily the same thing as holding a vote to

impeach him as the senate convicting and removing him from office. this is about an inquiry. and you see here, three of the four polls come out , there is outright majority favor inquiry. all the polling is showing there is more support an inquiry than opposition for an inquiry, and majority support for it in most of the polls that have come out. the inquiry itself right now seems to be fairly popular, certainly not unpopular with voters. now, it gets more complicated when you take it a step further and say this is not just the inquiry, we're talking now about a vote to impeach him. should congress impeach and remove from office. should he be compelled to leave office. some variation of that, and what you see, he was over 50 in terms of inquiry, running with basically in the mid-40s.

that's outpacing disapproval in most of the polls. all but one of the polls you're seeing here, so impeachment is more complicated politically than just the inquiry. but these numbers for trump, these numbers are significantly higher than they have been before at any other point in his presidency. the ukraine story has brought support for impeachment into the mid-40s. it was not there before. how does this compare to two other presidents. first of all, this was richard nixon, polling from when the house began an impeachment inquiry, in february 1974, and this is, they want nixon impeached as the inquiry began, it was 38%. by the end, a few months later, all the hearings more revelations, smoking gun tape, that approval number was in the 50s and 60s by the time nixon was compelled to leave office. clinton started at 31 when the impeachment inquiry began. never really changed from there.

clinton was impeached by the house, acquitted by the senate. it was always very unpopular. here is one area where trump is different than nixon. this is the approval rating of the president. nixon was at 25% with his own party. republicans, nixon's approval rating was 55%. when the inquiry began. it only got worse for him from there. clinton, the complete opposite. he was very popular overall when the inquiry began, very popular with his own party, politically strong going into impeachment. nixon was politically weak. where is trump, kind of a mixed bag, 40% approval rating, higher than nixon, much lower than clinton. it's that number we were talking about in the last segment, the support from his own party. it rivals clinton. he's 25 points less than clinton in overall approval rating but with his own party, and remember if republicans hold ranks here, he can't be removed from office with his own party, same as

clentocle clinton. that's a significant number. up next, lindsey graham, mitch mcconnell, and even the president's former ambassador to the un, nikki haley are lining up against the president's decision to withdraw troops and one of the key allies in the region is calling it a betrayal. you're watching "hardball." "har. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪

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like this device to increase volume on your cell phone. - ( phone ringing ) - get details on this state program call or visit welcome back to "hardball", yesterday in a decision that seemed to catch many within his own administration off guard, president trump announced a withdrawal of american troops from syria's border with turkey. that paves the way for a turkish attack on syrian kurdish forces. the decision came shortly after a call with the turkish president. one person familiar with the government's policy deliberations told "politico" that the president quote is operating against the advice of his national security leaders and that he went rogue. the announcement was met with widespread condemnation. >> is that a wise move, is this a policy you can support?

>> oh, absolutely not. if i didn't see donald trump's name on the tweet, i'd thought it would be obama's rational for getting out of iraq. this is going to lead to the reemergence of isis. >> i know the president wants to remove people from the middle east. i want to keep our word. >> again we're abandoning our most loyal allies, all we did was arm them, and they did all the work, and now we say good luck surviving. >> congresswoman liz cheney called the decision a catastrophic mistake, and nikki haley, president trump's former ambassador to the united nations tweeted we must always have the backs of our ally, if we expect them to have our back. leaving them to die is a big mistake. today president trump defended his decision and warned if turkey does anything that i and my great unmatched wisdom consider to be off limits, i

will totally destroy and obliterate the economy of turkey. nbc's chief foreign correspondent spoke to an official who slammed the decision, telling engel the pler americans are traitors, they have abandoned us to a turkish massacre. richard engel will join me from turkey, along with a state official who calls the president's decision morally repugnant. you're watching "hardball." repugnant. you're watching "hardball. whether your beauty routine is 3 steps... or 57, make nature's bounty hair skin and nails step one. it's the number one brand uniquely formulated

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welcome back to "hardball", late this afternoon, president trump defended his decision to pull troops out of northern syria despite a looming attack on syrian forces. >> i told president erdogan, it's going to be your responsibility now, really, it's really russia, it's turkey, it's iran, it's iraq. and it's syria and anybody else in the neighborhood. we did a great service to the world. right now we're at a position where if turkey does anything out of what they should be doing, we will hit them so hard in the economy. let them take care of it. we're policing. we're not fighting. we're policing. we're not a police force. >> according to "the new york times," quote if turkey moves against the kurds, the syrian democratic forces could abandon camps to fight the turks, potentially allowing some 10,000 captured islamic state fighters to escape.

for more i'm joined by richard engel, nbc's chief correspondent, and david phillips, senior adviser at the state department. thanks to both of you. richard, let me start with you on the ground, we were playing just before you joined us, dire predictions of what is now to come for the kurds, just set the scene on the ground in the region in terms of what the expectations are now, and what is happening right now that this has been announced and begun. >> reporter: well, i would just ask you to play that clip that we just heard from president trump again because that kind of encapsulates everything. i don't understand a word he was saying and i have been working in the middle east for over 20 years. we're policing russia, we have done a great service to iran. i have no idea what he's talking about. what kind of policy he's advocating is that a green light to turkey to go in and clean out the kurds.

last night, president trump had a conversation with president erdogan. the white house issued a statement that strongly suggested if turkishallies, u.s. allies who have lost more than 10,000 people, men and women fighting alongside u.s. special operations forces, that the u.s. would have no problem that it would stand aside and allow that offensive to take place. a green light. all day today we were on kind of a war footing, even turkey thought it was about to begin. and then president trump is walking it back, there have been private briefings saying, well, if turkey goes too far, i'll destroy their economy. it went from a guilty to an amber light. all encapsulated in that impossible-to-understand statement of policy that you just played at the beginning. people here have no idea what the u.s. position is. no idea if there are any red

lines f there are any green lights, or what to do. if you are a u.s. ally like the kurds whose lives depend on american friendship for your survival, i think right now you're very, very nervous. and i can tell you, we've been speaking to them right now. they're nervous, they're worried about they're going to be betrayed. they're not sure who is in charge and what president trump says when he sits down, picks up the phone, and speaks to other world leaders. >> david, in terms of the politics that sort of shape this here domestically, i see thofrlgz happening here. i think americans are absorbing the sorts of comments from across the political spectrum today about how loyal the kurds have been to the united states, the idea of you do not want to betray them. when the president used the word police force, you look at polling on military involvement overseas, there tends to be an aversion to sending american troops into a lot of situations overseas, frankly.

is there a way to get an american presence out of syria that does not give up the kurds? >> there's a kurdish adage that says kurds have no friend but the mountains. and syria has no friend but the kurds. 11,000 kurds before killed, 22,000 injured fight at our behest against isis. isis would not have been defeated without kurdish participation. this sends a message in syria in the region, but also worldwide. who is going to go to war with the united states the next time we need a friend and ally when we treat your allies in syria, the kurds, the way we have? >> what would you say to somebody who says that's a very good point. if that is going to be the consequence of this, the united states shouldn't do this. but the united states still needs to get out of syria. is there a way to reconcile those two impulses. left to a fair fight, the kurds would defeat turkey.

but turkey has heavy armor and air power. in december of last year the kurds attacked a town all day afrin. the kurds tried to defend themselves against turkeys they were unable to. hundreds were killed. they fled east of the euphrates river. the u.s. needs to have an exit strategy for syria. that means a political solution that decentralizes power, is local controlled to the kurds over their government, their economy. if we don't do that, it's just a formula for further instability and conflict in syria and the kurds will be left out in the cold and so will our zblsz we showed all those republicans that are typically loyal to the president speaking out so forcefully on this today. that political reality of potentially there being a veto-proof majority in congress to take action here, is that going to have an effect? >> well, the one thing that president trump has made clear in what is a totally chaotic and

apparently improvised strategy that he's not commuted clearly because both the turks and the kurds do not know what is going to happen next. the turks don't know, do they have this green light to go carry out an offensive? do the kurds know they have just been betrayed and about to be massacred? the one thing that is clear is that president trump wants out of this and is happy to abandon the people who lost over 10,000 fighters fighting against isis. there are many americans who do not want to see that happen. i think it's bad for the u.s. image. i think that's why he's walking it back and maybe some -- i know the krurds hoping he'll get distracted again, move on to another subject, and that this will pass. >> richard engel in turkey, david phillips, thank you to both of you. up next, the incredible uncertainty in the democratic field. you're watching "hardball." re w. 3 out of 4 people achieved

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. look at the polls and there's some order to the democratic presidential race. joe biden is still in first place, but now only barely. the real clear politics poll average puts him at 0.3 of a point over elizabeth warren. you can call them the co-leaders. one other candidate is in double digits, that's bernie sanders. he's back around 14%. it is a giant field, yet only

three candidates are really standing out. why does it feel this race might be more unstable than it looks? let's look at those top three candidates again. there is biden. he started as the clear front-runner but his performance on the campaign trail, in particular, in debates, has unnerved some democrats. he has found himself in the middle of the trump ukraine drama. "the new york times" paints picture of an indecisive candidate unsure how to respond. the good news for biden, he still does better than any other candidate against donald trump and he still has strong support from a major democratic constituency, black voters. warren's coalition is still narrow. a lot of support from the highly educated, from the very liberal and white voters. she is far behind with black voters. can she expand her coalition? will questions about her electability keep her from doing so. what about the other candidate in double digits? bernie sanders is 78 years old,

the oldest candidate in the field and he just had a heart attack. he says he's pressing ahead, but even before this there were already doubts about his path to the nomination. fortunes change fast in politics. this race seems stable right now, but for all we know, it looked be on the cusp of a major shake up. that is "hardball." "all in with chris hayes" starts now. tonight in "n" -- >> it's lucky i'm the president because i guess i don't know why a lot of people said very people could handle it. >> new subpoenas and a new whistle-blower. >> you can't impeach a president for doing a great job. >> tonight as the case for impeachment gets worse for the president, new reporting on trump alleys trying to profit in ukraine. why donald trump is warming up the bus for rick perry. >> he put glasses on so people will think he's smart. plus, today's court ruling that found the president is not flun criminal investigation. why the president's surprise syria move is angering potential impeachment jurors. >>