scrambling to write briefs. i think the only question is this going to go to a divided supreme court to decide what kind of documents are released and what kind of power this impeachment inquiry has. >> nicholas johnson in d.c. for us. we're going to be reading "axios" a.m. in a bit. you can sign up for the news letter by going to signup@axios.com. "morning joe" starts right now. >> the notion that you can withhold information and documents from congress no matter whether you're the party in power or not in power is wrong. respect for the rule of law must mean something irrespective of the va sis attitudes of political cycles. >> wow. >> yes. >> willie and i were just saying that. you know, i've got a great idea. this is my great idea, mika. >> yeah, yeah, yeah. you always have the good ones.

>> i think -- that's what the kids say. >> yeah. >> i think that the democrats should hire that man, trey gowdy to be like a special counsel for impeachment, for the impeachment inquiry because he spoke so honestly and so eloquently and so passionately about dog gone it, he's just a country lawyer like me. you know what it's like matlock. i mean, come on now. mrs. jones, come on that fur hat really wasn't yours, was it? it was your daughter's and you're covering up for her. let's just tell the truth about the fur hat. right? and the fried chicken stains on the hat. it puts you there where the murderer was in the back of the -- >> okay. >> i'm just saying, you know, willie, he does that matlock stuff. don't you think he would be perfect for the democrats since

he spoke so forcefully about transparency? >> well, i agree, and the rule of law and that no one -- and i mean no one -- is above the law. >> absolutely no one. >> okay. yes, right? >> yes, yes. does everybody agree? >> yes. >> okay. well, listen, nancy if you're listening, we think you should hire trey- what? >> he's joining trump's legal team. >> no. but wait. >> as an outside counsel. okay? >> i'm just a cake man lawyer, but i do not understand your strange ways. >> all right, maybe it will be helpful in the process. >> okay. serious times as the white house escalates its standoff with house democrats. >> i would say it's serious times. willie, could you believe the rays last night? >> oh, sorry, mika. we'll make it brief. >> no, this is serious times.

they had more than 14 people there last night, and for a good reason. they -- i can't -- listen, they're a great team. they've got a great manager, a great organization, and their fans are the worst in america. >> i got to say -- >> but they showed up last night. >> i was watching that game, and i said that is great crowd. where have those people been for the last six months. good for them for coming out last night. the rays got to justin verlander. she's very excited about this. >> i can't look at this. >> look at this relay. >> this is an amazing throw. >> this is unbelievable. >> cuts altuve down at the plate. the rays have come back, tied the series with the best team in baseball, the houston astros. forced it to a deciding game five tomorrow in houston with the yankees getting the win in the american league. >> good night for tampa. houston, you've got a problem, and what a great night for baseball, three of the four

series pushed all the way to game five. >> today is a great day, joe. you've got two sudden death games going on, a big one out in los angeles. nationals versus dodgers. strasbourg versus walker, two of the best pitchers in the game. the astros being pushed to a fifth game. their two top pitchers won't face the yankees in the first two games of any series. >> good morning, and welcome to "morning joe," it is wednesday -- >> mika, i got to tell you also. >> what about the polls, have you seen the polls? >> i have polls to show you, yes. >> there's a quinnipiac poll out right now like "the wall street journal" nbc news poll, "the washington post" poll, we're into the 50s now with people wanting this impeachment inquiry to go forward. i wish you could read some news and let us hear about that. >> right, we've got joe definitely here, willie and me and mike barnicle.

also columnist and associate for "the washington post" david ignatius, his story and author of soul of america and john meacham, an nbc news and msnbc contributor. and former u.s. attorney now an nbc news law enforcement analyst, chuck rosenberg. he was a former aide to robert mueller. there is a lot to cover this morning. fast moving. >> chuck is very sad that he's here. he's going to arrest us for bad television. >> that too. it's sad also what's happening in washington, which we'll get to. a lot of fast moving developments in the push to impeach president trump, but joe mentioned the polls. a neuquen pea yak poll is just the latest to show the majority of americans now support impeachment. 53%. this follows yesterday's "washington post" poll of which found 58% of americans support the house probe, 21 point

increase since july. yeesh. that's a big jump, joe. >> yeah, it really is. and you know, willie, we've often we show polls and everybody around the table goes this doesn't really matter, and oh, the election's still a long way off. i will say no polls matter more than these impeachment polls. you actually see members of even the republican senate start to move saying a word here or there when the numbers jump up, and nancy pelosi and the democrats in the house have breathing room. nobody -- nobody can say it's a political witch hunt when 55, 56, 57, 58% of americans actually support that impeachment inquiry or if they do call it a witch hunt, it actually just hurts them even more because the majority of americans want to see this impeachment inquiry move forward

on donald trump. >> yeah, i mean, a majority in almost every one of those polls wants to see it go forward. you got to the key in why the polls matter. that's when you start to see movement inside the united states congress. all these senators and congressmen and women who have been silent the, puzingly sil t silent, if it gets to the point in their state or district where their voters, the people who can reelect them or not reelect them have moved on it, that's when they move. it's not exactly profiles in courage, but that is the way it works. >> and president trump was saying the other day, we'll show this later, i saw my poll numbers went up, and it was like for impeachment donald. they're talking about impeaching you, but he doesn't watch. we'll have much more on the significance of this polling in just a moment. we also learned yesterday that the trump administration will not cooperate with the inquiry calling it illegitimate and unconstitutional. we've got the first sign of that when the state department

blocked e.u. ambassador, gordon sondland a key witness in the probe from testifying before congress. democrats responded to that by issuing a subpoena to compel his testimony and for documents related to the president's efforts to get ukrainian officials to investigate joe biden and his son. and remember the text message that diplomat bill taylor sent sondland that said it was, quote, crazy to withhold military aid to ukraine to help the president's campaign? a source now tells nbc news that before responding hours later, quote, no quid pro quo, sondland actually called and consulted with the president. there's also new reporting related to the president's call with the president of ukraine. according to the "new york times," one day after that call, the whistle-blower wrote a memo about a white house official who was, quote, visibly shaken after listening to the conversation and citing two sources, cnn is

reporting that the president's demand for energy secretary rick perry and two other top state department officials to work with rudy giuliani on ukraine dates back to at least may, and then there's this. despite the president's quest to prove that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election to help hillary clinton, the republican-led senate intelligence committee released a bipartisan report yesterday that affirms the assessment from the intelligence community that russia used a vast social media campaign to help trump win the election. joe, a lot to unpack here before we even get to the white house response to the impeachment inquiry. >> why don't we start with that last item. you know, john meacham, republicans and defenders, people who blindly defend donald trump regardless always seize on the mueller report and say there was no collusion.

there was a russian witch hunt, it was a witch hunt, it was a hoax and breeze past all of the troubling findings in there. we still have a president who is still chasing down conspiracy theories across the world with his attorney general instead of worrying about what's going on at home trying to prove that the russians, in fact, were not at the center of it, that it was ukraine or somebody else. crowd strike. here we have the republican-led intel committee and the senate saying for his story as a matter of fact that the russians actually did influence our 2016 election. they tried to influence it at least for the sake of donald trump. they are now lined up with the fbi, the cia, every federal agency now agrees on the same thing along with the senate intel committee that the russians tried to influence the

election to help elect donald trump. the only person in washington apparently who still doesn't believe this is donald trump. >> right, well, he says he doesn't believe it, and i suspect what we're going to see here is a revifification, if you will, a renewal of the outrage of the concern of the fact that our national security has been at risk here, and we don't have to be hysterical about it. this doesn't have to be a partisan issue. that's the critical thing here. these are pretty cold facts, stone cold to use one of the president's favorite locutions. i go back to that crazy liberal dick cheney who said that if, in fact, russia tried to tamper with the elections, influence the elections, it was an act of

war. well, here we have it, and i think that also puts the entire story in a context that, again, no matter where you stand on the ideological spectrum be driven by the facts, and as you say, here's a republican-led committee saying what seems to be obvious, and that's the context in which we're deal ing here. we have been under attack from a foreign power that wants to sow chaos, and they've done it. here we are. >> well, and you know, david ignatius tii think at this poin we just need to go down the list again because it is so damning to the president and mitch mcconnell, both of whom continue to try to block all efforts to put up the type of security that we need to prevent russia from interfering in 2020, but you have trump's director of the fbi, trump's appointed director

of the cia. you had trump's, the secretary of the department of homeland security all saying directly that this was an imminent threat to american democracy. you even had trump's acting mbi go to the hill last week and saying far more than the thermo nuclear blast from north korea or another country the greatest threat to america was russia interfering in our elections. you now have the republican led senate intel committee tradrawi this same conclusion, and again, not only donald trump, but mitch mcconnell doing absolutely nothing to protect us in 2020 from a similar attack that all of these agencies say is the greatest threat to american

democracy. >> i think the importance of this bipartisan senate report is that it undermaiines the narrate that donald trump's attorney general william barr even now is trying to construct about some kind of deep state plot to do in the president, to campaign against him, to reverse his election. that's what barr has been traveling around europe trying to gather evidence to support, and here is the senate intelligence committee led by a republican, which says no, whatever barr turns up is irrelevant to the facts that we have gathered that show russian attempts to interfere in our election, to support trump, to hinder hillary clinton. i think that's the key. it's one more voice, but it's a particularly important one. we'll hear a lot more about that counter narrative. that's just beginning to crest, and there are a lot of people out there who support donald trump who believe it, so it's

really important to have this bipartisan counter evidence come out now. >> and as they might say in congress, a point of personal privilege here, i came into congress in 1994 with a lot of people who were conservative fire brands who said they were going to fight for the conservative cause. i've seen so many of them fall by the wayside, so many of them act in ways that have disappointed not only me but real coffnservatives. i came in with richard burr, and i did not expect all these years later, 20 years later that he would be the one who was really one of the most steadfast advocates, one of the straightest shooters for the rule of law, for truth, for protecting the country. i always liked him, but he wasn't a fire brand. he just quietly sat back and did his job. i'll be darned if he's not the guy out of all of those that i came in with who right now is

putting his country above his party. it's a very rare thing sadly in washington, d.c. these days, but that's what he's doing. >> joe, you said that exactly right. he's got -- he has got the back of his ranking member, mark warner, and mark warner has richard burr's back, and that's the way it's supposed to work. >> that's the way washington's supposed to work, and that's the way it does work when american leaders are actually doing the right thing and are more interested in helping america move forward than their own political careers. chuck rosenberg, we talked early on about the trump white house basically declaring war on this impeachment inquiry. let's talk about what it is and what it isn't. during the mueller investigation time and again, i was concerned about a constitutional crisis if donald trump fired mueller, if there was like a saturday night massacre or if a judicial ruling came down and the trump administration refused to follow that judicial ruling.

that would have been a constitutional crisis. this is more of a political battle, a pitched heated political battle, but not exactly a constitutional crisis. so that being said, what are some of the -- this isn't nixon defying the supreme court, if he had defied the supreme court. these are two branches of government fighting each other, so is there a legal remedy? can these committee chairmen and chair women go to the courts and have testimony compelled? >> theoretically, yes, joe. practically, it's going to take a very long time, and that's the problem. you know this from having served as a member, typically this is done through accommodation, but here the white house has signaled very clearly that they don't want to accommodate anyone or anything. one thing that i think we should take from this, some context if you will, because i was a prosecutor for a long time. lots and lots of times people that we investigate, subjects or targets, don't cooperate with

us. they destroy documents. they withhold evidence. they lie or counsel others to lie. and nevertheless we're able to prosecute our cases. if you want a real life example of that. look at volume 2 of the mueller report where the white house obstructed the investigation for months on end, and the mueller team was still able to detail what happened and why can they do that? because there are other places to go to get information. right now we're seeing that, even with the ukraine matter, there's lots of information out there from other sources, from text messages, from recollections, right? from testimony that investigators will get even without the white house's cooperation. so deeply unfortunate, not terribly surprising, but it doesn't mean that the investigation comes to a dead halt. >> yeah, and you know, willie, it's not like the white house, the executive branch is holding all the cards. the house has the power of the purse. they have the checkbook. they can creatively figure out ways to squeeze the white house,

to squeeze donald trump, at least -- we did that time and again where we squeezed the white house, and at the very least you get people sitting down at the table and figure out, all right, how do we break this impasse. >> yeah, because when you get to the point where the house is issuing subpoenas, and the white house is now saying explicitly in a letter sent to the house we're not going to comply with any of that. what do you do? a and you just offered one solution to it. it's kind of a moment where both sides are going to sit there and stare at each other in a standoff. it's rare you see this in a letter just an explicit statement that we're going to obstruct your investigation. we put it down in writing. it's sort of a -- it's a political defense written in trump language mastquerading asa legal document. >> you nailed it. i was reading it last night eight pages from the while house counsel, one-third of it is

legalese as it ought to be and two-thirds is a political track. the news out of it, and i realize that most high schools, grammar schools in this country no longer teach civics, but this letter and the behavior of the trump administration is basically an announcement that there is only one branch of government, the executive branch of government, and chuck, to that point, the executive branch of government -- and this was referenced by david ignatius a couple of minutes ago -- the continuing roying role of the a general of the united states in all of this bill barr, from the get-go from his preemptive announcement about what was in the mueller report, what was not in the mueller report skewing people's perceptions of that report to his latest venture overseas with john durham, who has been assigned as an independent investigator, and he has the attorney general apparently looking over his shoulder as he tries -- as the attorney general tries to concoct some alternative theory

to what happened in 2016, you're a veteran prosecutor. you're a veteran of the justice department, you're a veteran of the fbi, what's your reaction to him? >> you know, i had said for months, mike, that i thought barr was a principaled institutionalist, and then i said i think on this show, i was flat out wrong. i had it wrong. i've been deeply disappointed about what i've seen, and that first thing, that first thing that really sort of shook me was mr. barr's mischaracterization of bob mueller's work. and as you know and as you've said, right, once that lie is out there, it's really hard for the truth to catch up. and we saw that with the mueller report. people still don't understand what bob mueller found, and that's deeply disappointing. all that said, i also have confidence in john durham. i know john, i trust john, i like john, and i respect john. what i'm worried about is not john or his findings or his work, what i'm worried about as

with the mueller report is the tendency for this attorney general to mischaracterize that work, and that's the danger. it's not what john is doing or what john might find. it's how john's work might be spun, and that's what's so disappointing to me, mike. >> you know, john meacham, i have been boringly predictable talking time and again how washington's institutions, america's institutions would check the worst autocratic instincts of donald trump. i must say, i've learned an awful lot over the past several years, and one of the things i've learned is that the position of attorney general is particularly susceptible so corruption, and not having that -- you look at the attorney general barr who, i believe, is every bit as fwragrave of a thr to our constitutional norms as donald trump, and let's -- what chuck just said, here's a guy

that lied about the mueller investigation and the findings. he actually went and testified and lied and threw out a conspiracy theory that had long been debunked on what the basis of the mueller investigation was, even though he knew it was a lie. he's going around the globe right now chasing conspiracy theories that he knows is a lie because he's not representing the people. he is donald trump's roy cohn. and now of course you have congress defying -- or you have donald trump defying congress, the white house, and having contempt for their traditional oversight responsibilities, and i just wonder how does this stack up to watergate in 1974? how does barr stack up to john mitchell? because suddenly john mitchell doesn't seem like the worst attorney general in u.s. history. he seems like he's probably

going to come in second. >> you know, in american legal history, you can either be john marshal or john mitchell, and i think bill barr has chosen his fate here, and so mitchell was long-time friend insofar as nixon had friend, had been his law partner, and municipal bond lawyer, had left the justice department to run the committee to reelect the president. the committee to reelect the president, which, again, in this context looks like a fairly sedate operation was -- at least it was, you know, domestic, you know, they didn't hire russian burglars. i guess if they'd outsourced that would make it worse. mitchell was an architect of the cover-up, and was a former attorney general at that point, but the point remains. what general barr has done is treated the president and his political capacity as his

primaryopposed to the interests of justice of the united states. that's the decision he made. he'll answer for it at the -- in the long sweep of history, and i think what -- where we are in terms of the historical comparison with watergate is very close. we're heading toward a u.s. v. trump supreme court case. all the language from watergate, stonewalling, modified limited hangout, twist slowly, slowly in the wind, that whole vernacular is entirely applicable here. the one thing that's a little different is that we're moving even more rapidly, that is the speed is quicker. the rate of speed is quicker, and i think don't under estimate, or as george w. bush was saying, let's not misunder estimate those polls, that 58, that 53. we haven't gotten 58% of the people to agree to go to burger

king this a long time in this country. 58% is a big number if that's a solid number. as willie was saying, this is the edmond burke moment for members of congress. they reflect the will of their constituents or they exercise their judgment, and the 58% or let's call it 55%, that enables them to do a little bit of both. >> you know, willie geist, i've got to say there's a reason we pay john meacham the big bucks. you just had a beautiful eloquent dissertation on john marshal, edmond burke and burger king. >> and burger king. >> okay. >> by the way, willie, you and i, we are the 58% that say let's all go to burger king. >> amen, brother. amen. >> okay. yeah, or what's the one that does the whopper? is that burger king? >> that's burger king.

delicious. >> welcome to america mika. this is your country. >> how does she not know what a whopper is? good lord. >> i've never had one. >> you've never had one? >> they're charcoal broiled. >> special orders don't upset us. >> still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> am i being mocked for not eating a whopper? >> hold the pickle, hold the lettuce. >> we'll end it now. >> we've briefed you on the headlines, and now we're going to dig in on all the details among them that the u.s. ambassador to the e.u. called president trump before trying to tamp down a diplomat's concerns that the administration was linking ukraine assistance to help with a political campaign. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. ♪ parkinson's.

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you know, if it wasn't your show, sean, they would destroy him absolutely. you're the difference between donald j. trump and richard nixon. in nixon's case if he had someone that stuck up for him, he wouldn't have been, you know, motivated to cover up that burgla burglary. >> that was geraldo last night. that's how my dad says it. >> high praise indeed. what goes through somebody's mind when they think they're praising somebody and saying, you know, if you had been there, he would have gotten away with burglary. not only -- what does that say about the person geraldo thinks he's praising? what does it say about what that person is doing today? because it sounds an awful like he's suggesting that this said person is wonderful at covering things up. >> yeah, we do the show early in the morning. sometimes my synapses don't fire.

when i listen to that i'm wondering is he saying what i think he's saying, if only sean hannity was around, nixon would have gotten away with the whole thing that forced him into his resignation from office. >> ix nay on the ix nay stuff, that'sing to access some of robert mueller's remaining secret, and a federal judge may allow it to happen. the justice department, however, is trying to block lawmakers from seeing the special counsel's grand jury materials. doj lawyers argue that despite legal rulings during nixon's impeachment inquiry, in hindsight, the courts in 1974 should not have given congress materials from the watergate grand jury. the chief u.s. district judge responded, quote, wow, okay.

as i said, the department is taking extraordinary positions in this case. as msnbc justice and security analyst matt miller tweeted, huh? i did not see the nixon was treated unfairly argument coming. joe. >> i have nothing to say, really. chuck, it's one thing for somebody to -- what geraldo uttered on the talk show, but for the united states justice department to claim that richard nixon was treated unfairly in 1974 really does boggle the mind, and certainly obviously did with that judge. >> that's right. so i think when chief judge barrel howell said that the department of justice was taking an extraordinary position, it was a euphemism meaning that the department of justice was taking a ridiculous position. there's a rule that precludes us sort of handing out grand jury information willy nilly, right?

we can't just give it away. we can't disclose it. we can't give it to the press. it has to remain secret unless there's an exception, and way back in 1974, judge sirica in the district of columbia, federal court, said that an impeachment proceeding is an exception. it's an exception under which you can give out that grand jury information. that's why the democrats now in the house want the mueller stuff. they want the mueller grand jury information, and so for the department of justice to take a position contrary to what judge sirica did so many years ago is really extraordinary or, frankly, ridiculous. this is the type of information for which an exception is provided. the house democrats should be able to get it under existing precedent. i think judge howell is being kind. >> all right, chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. and the new episode of chuck's podcast "the oath" is available now. this week chuck sits down with

the former mayor of washington, d.c. anthony williams. listen for free wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at msnbc.com/theoath. >> it's incredible. >> yeah. and still ahead, it's been a busy morning with impeachment developments, but there's troubling news regarding syria. we'll talk about david ignatius's reporting that turkey may launch an attack in the air and on the ground within the next 24 hours, and the u.s. will do nothing. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ♪ at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. because when you're with fidelity, there's nothing to stop you from moving forward. because when you're with fidelity,

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. the turkish military together with the free syrian army will cross the syrian border shortly. that according to turkey's communication's director who in a tweet last night said kurdish militants in the region can either defect or will be stopped by turkish forces from

disrupting their push against isis militants. turkish officials also tell reuters that its military yesterday struck the syrian iraqi border to prevent kurdish forces from using the route to reinforce northeast syria. david ignatius, you have new reporting on what may be imminent. what are you hearing? >> mika, i was told last night that this turkish attack across the border with air assets and on the ground would come within the next 24 hours. this morning talking to my sources who are in touch with the fighters at the border on the u.s. side, i'm told so far there has only been probing. the turkish attack has not begun yet. so perhaps there's a moment of reflection as the turks see the enormous criticism coming, especially from the u.s. congress. i talked last night with senator lindsey graham who said that as

soon as congress returns from its recess, he will introduce a motion to sanction turkey if turkey invades, and he told me that he thinks he has 85 to 90 votes to support that motion, extraordinary swell of criticism of turkey. two other important developments i want to mention. first, as the turks prepare for their invasion across the border in northeastern syria, russian and syrian regime forces further south are said to be moving up toward the kurdish areas to catch the kurds in a kind of n of pincer. this is what should frighten us, there are many thousands, the estimates go as high as 10,000, former isis prisoners who have been held in often ramshackle

facilities by the kurds who may be able to escape if the turkish invasion happens and the kurds who were guarding them have to flee to go to the front lines to fight the turks. that means that some of the most dangerous people on the planet, people who want to target britain, france, the united states, could suddenly be free. i am sorry to say that the united states government after looking at this question for months still has no plan to deal with the possibility that these isis fighters could suddenly be at large. isis was attacking last night in raqqa, their former capital which we destroyed in the process we thought of beating them. there were three suicide bombs in raqqa last night. that's just a reminder that this menace could be on the way back if president trump's decision goes forward in turkey. >> two questions, one, who controls the air space right now today along the border?

does the united states government control? who controls the air space. while we seemingly do not have a plan for dealing with any of this, does assad have a plan? >> first, on the air space, we have the assets to control the air space. i am told that we have taken turkey out of the coordinated air command center that operates the air base, and now there's a version of it in the states which coordinates all the different traffic in this space. so it's a warning to turkey, you're not on the team. be careful. you could get shot down if you operate. in terms of planning for the future, i think our military, which has done such a superb job in northern syria just has been

so disconcerted by the president's policy almost by whim, make a phone call to the president of turkey and things will emerge from that call that nobody, not the chairman of the joint chiefs, not the secretary of defense had any idea was coming. so they're just struggling to keep up. >> david, it's willie. your tweets last night that summarized your reporting on this story were so arresting. a lot of people were talking about them last night given the specifics you had. i'm curious the time frame on this. we're only 48 hours out from the president's public announcement that the united states would step aside and let turkey go in. turkey clearly was ready to do this. what has been the reaction from the military, from the pentagon, from the special operators, for example, who have worked side by side with the sdf for all these months and now have to stand aside and watch what you describe as a potential massacre? >> willie, i think the only way you could put it is bitter disappointment.

these people have seen brave allies fight because the united states asked them to. the kurds in syria have lost 11,000 dead, 24,000 wounded destroying this menace of isis. we in this same period, 2014 to now, have lost less than ten people. so the people who did the killing and the dying were these kurds, and for americans who fought with them to see them abandoned has been painful. that said, they do what they're told. commander in chief gives an order, they figure out how to carry it out. they have been hoping and praying that our discussion on "morning joe," that what's written in the papers, what's on twitter may delay, forestall president trump's action. senator lindsey graham's comments calling late at night last night to say i'm really serious, senators, this is on the record, and you bet it's on the record. i want you to talk about the fact that we are absolutely committed to try to turn this

policy around. we'll see, but for the military it's a tough, bitter pill to swallow. >> so david, actually, what lindsey was talking to you about if he really does have 85 people, and i bet he does have 85 people that would actually put sanctions on turkey if they invaded and attack the kurds, that actually -- you talk about leverage. turkey is a country that has been struggling economically. erdogan's had some of his greatest political challenges yet because of a struggling economy that appears to just now be starting to turn around. getting hammered with sanctions from the united states would be a crippling economic blow for that country. i wonder if that will be enough to actually stop him from moving. >> we'll see. you hope and pray that these warnings will have some effect. president trump's own warning, i'll obliterate turkey if it

does the wrong thing had the opposite of the intended effect in a country like turkey that, was seen as an insult almost made it more likely they would attack. i've been checking this morning as we've been doing the show and all that my contacts are seeing on the borders, turkish probing. they're weary, so that raised the possibility that some strong statement from washington could buy a little time here. >> okay. still ahead on "morning joe," and we will definitely return back to that topic. elizabeth warren overtakes joe biden in the real clear politics national average of polls, and with her new front runner status also comes new scrutiny. we'll dig into that ahead on "morning joe." ♪ i've got lots of friends in san jose ♪ ♪ do you know the way to san jose ♪ humira patients, you inspire us.

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♪ hey, mika, every once in a while we get reminders of how this country works, and once you get away from washington, d.c., how good people who may disagree with each other can get -- can get together and actually be civil and disagree but still be agreeable. you see that clip on ellen about her encounter with a certain politician at dallas stadium? >> yes, i lovelle love ellen by. to be on her show is my dream. ellen degeneres responding to critics after crowd shots at sunday's cowboys packers game showed her as you said sitting next to former president george w. bush, and they were having fun. there's laura bush. she's so nice. looks like a pretty fancy day there. a lot of people on twitter took

issue with the talk show host for sitting next to the former president because of his politics. ellen addressed the backlash with a message that she ends her show with every day. >> during the game, they showed a shot of george and me laughing together and so people were upset. they thought why is a gay hollywood liberal sitting next to a conservative republican president. didn't even notice i'm holding the brand new iphone 11. [ laughter ] >> a lot of people were mad, and they did what people do when they're mad. they tweet. here's one tweet i lover, ellen and george bush together makes me have faith in america again. [ applause ] >> exactly. here's the thing, i'm friends with george bush. in fact, i'm friends with a lot of people who don't share the same beliefs i have. we're all different, and i think that we've forgotten that that's okay that we're all different. for instance, i wish people wouldn't wear fur. i don't like it, but i'm friends

with people who wear fur. i'm friends with people who are furry as a matter of fact. i have friends who should tweeze more, and i have -- but just because i don't agree with someone on everything doesn't mean that i'm not going to be friends with them. when i say be kind to one another, i don't mean only the people that think the same way you do. i mean be kind to everyone. doesn't matter. >> that's the bottom line. i mean -- go ahead, joe. >> no, that is the bottom line, and john meacham, that's how we were raised. that's who we aspire to be, and it just shouldn't be so hard for people in washington to do that. and as you know as well as anybody, i mean, george w. bush's legacy, yes, he's got the iraq war. there are other things about him. he also, if you ask bob gel doff or bono or people who committed their lives to eradicating disease in africa, they will tell you that george w. bush did

more to lead in the battle of aids in africa than any other leader in the world. >> there are millions and millions of people who are alive today because of the president's emergency fund, which is something that will be a huge part of the bush legacy as will the war on terror, as will the war in iraq. that's what history is. that's what reality is. it's complicated, and people are complicated. in some ways president bush 43 has through two sort of viral moments with women on the other side of the aisle, has sort of modeled civility for us. michelle obama and now ellen, and has given us a little bit of a lesson on, you know what? we don't have to be as reflex e reflexively tribal all the time. you can disagree, but you know, you don't have to did

disagreeable. i think his father did it with clinton, and now he's doing it. it's a good role for former presidents, and hopefully we all learn something from it. >> john meacham, thank you so much. and coming up, we'll break down the slew of new reporting on the push to impeach the president. the white house is stonewalling the investigation as new polling shows more americans support impeachment. claire mccaskill and karine jean-pierre will be here to weigh in on all the new developments. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. maria ramirez! mom! maria! maria ramirez... mcdonald's is committing 150 million dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs... prof: maria ramirez mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! to help more employees achieve their dreams.

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well, that's a fancy control room. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 9th. new digs. all right. hello. look at all those people working here. like five. >> they got them out of the basement. >> wow. >> it's a spaceship. all right, still with joe, willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignati ignatius, and joining the conversation former u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. what are you wearing, claire? i see. she's come to play she's come to play. >> it's a big day. it's a big day. >> how are you feeling? >> i feel pretty good. you know, we're a little worried

about our closer obviously. flaherty's going to start. typically what happens when flaherty starts is the bats go quiet. i don't know if it's something in their head that they know flaherty's pitching so they don't have to produce runs. hopefully we'll have some active bats and hopefully we can get around our little closer problem. >> senior adviser at moveon.org, karine jean-pierre appears to have no idea what claire's talking about. you're with me. we'll clean our purses. visiting fellow at the american enterprise institute, tim carney joins us. great to have you. so yesterday we saw that "washington post" poll -- >> whoa, tim, are you a nationals fan? >> i am a mets fan who will route for the nationals in these few days. i know all about closer problems on both of those teams. >> yeah, you do. edwin diaz. >> edwin diaz. >> the mets had an exciting year this year, something to really look forward to right? >> it was great, pete alonso,

jeff mcneil, it was a lot of fun. >> yeah, so okay. >> all right. >> next year mika has a certain fan in her family who lives and breathes new york mets, so let's -- >> oh, that's true. okay. let's get to that poll. "the washington post" one which found 58% of americans support the house probe, a 21 point increase since july. that seems like a pretty vast increase. now we're getting a first look at our new nbc news wall street journal poll. 31% say congress should hold an impeachment inquiry to determine if trump should be removed from office, and 24% say there is enough evidence to impeach him and remove him from office. that's a combined 55%. and for the first -- >> can we separate that for one second, and claire, i want to go back to that last full screen we have. so it seems to me that if i were

a democrat from missouri and looked democratic senator from missouri or if i were another sort of purple state, i'd look at those numbers and say, okay, americans want us to look into what happened with the ukraine call, but they're not ready for us to remove him from office yet. so those poll numbers suggest that only fools would rush in, that there actually should be -- and i know this is old fashioned -- but there should be an inquiry. they should gather facts. there shouldn't be a rush as i've heard from many commentators and politicians to impeach him first and get the facts later. >> yeah, i think in missouri they just polled and frankly, it was -- those numbers were a little different in missouri. it was still 54% of missourians who don't think he should be impeached or there should be an inquiry. but around the country right now, i mean, bottom line you've

got 35 to 40% of the people who are standing firm and buying what trump is selling, but you have the majority of americans who now fully understand that this is a constitutional issue that must be addressed, and what they're doing, this ridiculous letter that was sent by somebody who calls themselves a lawyer from the white house, every lawyer in the country is going are you kidding me? what, we don't have to cooperate with an impeachment because we don't feel like it? i mean, this is for all these guys who have waved the constitution in my face and all of the judicial nomination hearings where they talk about tex chew lus and sticking to the text of the constitution and not rewriting the law in the courts, for gosh sakes it couldn't be more black letter that the constitution allows for this process, and so i think we're going to have a big legal earth

shaking decision that will reaffirm, hopefully, what our founding fathers intended. >> and you know, we talked before last hour about the fact that the trump administration, the justice department now pointing back to richard nixon suggesting that nixon was framed. federal judges rolling their eyes and mocking them at those suggestions, but you look at the numbers and there is no doubt a majority of americans want the impeachment inquiry to move forward, whether it's 55% or 58% depending on whether you're reading "the washington post" or the nbc news wall street journal poll, but that is a significant number. but that number is to say start the impeachment inquiry, let's see what you have, and then let's make a decision. again, that ain't nothing. that is a huge number. but again, people suggesting he needs to be impeached tomorrow aren't reading those polls

correctly. >> that's an important distinction, those poll numbers aren't throw the guy out of the office today, it's yes, of course we should go forward. and you know why 58% of americans say that is because they don't need subpoenas. they've seen the summary of the phone call between president trump and president zelensky from july. they've read the whistle-blower complaints, they've read the text messages that has been made public. there is enough evidence on the table already as nancy pelosi has pointed out to move forward with an inquiry. not to impeach him today but to proceed and look into it. now what the white house has effectively said in that political document that was not a legal document at all but was a defense of the president written in his own style and his own languages, we will not cooperate with you. so now the question becomes what happens? what's the next mover f for congress? what does nancy pelosi do? if you have a white house explicitly saying now we will not cooperate in any way. now what? that's the question. >> go ahead, joe. >> i was just going to ask,

karine, it seems to me that what the ap's jonathan lemire wrote, i believe it was sunday, it was actually a perfect lead into this week, lemire wrote that the very things that helped donald trump disrupt the election process, the very things that helped get him elected not playing by the rules are now the actions that are turning more americans against him. i think we all ask, when does donald trump's aberrant behavior start to boomerang bam on him? we've seen over the past two weeks it's happened in these polls and now obstructing an impeachment inquiry that 58% of americans support? that too, i suspect, only further damages donald trump's standing. >> that's exactly right, joe. look, there's no spinning this away for donald trump. it's very clear as you were just stating. he essentially, you know, broke the law, and it is clear as day

this is not like the mueller probe, right? where republicans and donald trump and his enablers i should say had the media to themselves. mueller probe, nobody was leaking. it was very quiet, it was much more difficult to understand, but this is a clear and cut case. we know exactly what donald trump, he admits it. rudy giuliani admits it. he went to a -- the ukraine president and asked for that ukraine president to interfere in our election, and that's why you see the dam breaking essentially with the public opinion, and it is moving very quickly. we are in a very polarized situation right now, and to see numbers like this where a majority of americans are saying, yes, impeachment inquiry, that is unheard of in a donald trump era. >> yeah, and for the first time the question has been asked in this poll overall 43% of americans said that trump should

be impeached and removed from office. 49% said that trump should not be impeached and remain president. and in a new quinnipiac university poll, 53% of registered voters said they approved of house democrats, the impeachment inquiry into president trump, up one point since last month, 43% disproe d disapproved down two. over half of voters agreed the impeachment probe is a legitimate investigation. 43% said the investigation is a political witch hunt, joe. >> so tim, we've talked about democrats looking at the polls, and you know, perhaps they shouldn't rush in. they should follow what a majority of americans believe, which is begin an impeachment inquiry, do your investigations. i'm curious, what should republicans do in the senate right now and in the house that are those suburban districts especially, and in those texas

districts that are going to be actually up in the air next fall. what do you think the best move is for them? >> i think the best example is rob portman of ohio, because he came out and he said look, that call with ukraine was inappropriate, and this is key. if you're going to resist impeachment and there's lots of very good reasons to do that, if you're going to resist impeachment, you shouldn't enable the president's worst behavior. so just because you don't think he should be removed for what he said with ukraine, you should at least say stop telling people to talk to rudy giuliani who's your sketchy lobbyist lawyer friend. stop trying to -- stop expending all of our diplomatic capital on these political things. you guys were referring to the lawyer letter earlier, there's a lot of ways in which the democrats aren't playing by the rules either and us as commentators, we shouldn't be wearing the cardinals or the -- or the astros or any of the jerseys there. we should be the umpires, and the fact is that the democrats,

they ought to do what was done with clinton. it's not in the constitution. it's not required, they can do whatever they want, but they ought to have a formal vote to start the impeachment inquiry, get the members on the record. i know pelosi's afraid of what's going to happen to her suburban members if they vote that way, but she ought to do it. also pompeo had very good complaints in the white house's letter. they're saying people are coming to state department staff, democratic congressional staff coming to state department staff saying come talk, don't bring a lawyer. that's completely inappropriate. we as commentators ought to, even if i'm on the right, you've got people there on the left, we ought to say both of you play by the rules: there are cases in which the democrats aren't doing that. >> you know what's also interesting, joe, is that clearly in the numbers that we've been showing all morning, donald trump is the accelerant to those numbers. he provides more fodder for pro-impeachment people than anyone else in this entire

situation. the other aspect of it is that you can see clearly nancy pelosi having a struggle with who is going to speak publicly more often than not about this process. and adam schiff on tv gets increasingly negative marks. you never see jerry nadler on tv talking about impeachment. so is it going to come down to nancy pelosi being the principal spokesperson. i harken back to nixon's impeachment. peter odino was chairman of the judiciary committee. you never heard from pete pete rodino. tip o'neill handled the same thing. i think that's the democrat's dilemma. who's going to be the spokesperson. it it's going to have to be ejd wi edged with a sentiment of sadness, not glee that he's

going to be impeached, sadness as to what's going on with the country. >> david ignatius, mike brings up a great point. i remember when we were going through impeachment in the late 1990s, and i kept -- i realized that congress was not a meritocracy, that often the people who were worse at speaking out and persuading voters were often those that got to the front of the microphones whether it was newt gingrich, whether it was tom delay, actually bill paxton was far more effective speaking for the party, somebody like steve largent would have been far more effective speaking for the party, and yet it went straight with seniority. and i agree with mike, unless it's nancy pelosi, i think the democratic party is going to have a real problem because there have been some people that have not been as effective as they needed to be during this time for the democrats. >> joe, i hope we're going to be

entering a period in which lawyers, professional interrogators will play a larger role. that's one thing i remember clearly from the watergate period was the face of these counsels, assistant counsels hired by the committees who did the questioning in such a professional way. we now have a standoff, the white house is refusing to allow people to testify, refusing to allow production of documents. that's going to have to be tested. i looked into the ways you can test it. you could ask the justice department to prosecute a contempt of congress case. well, i don't think that's going to happen. i don't see william barr or u.s. attorney carrying that case forward. it's probably going to be a civil case, and that's going to take some time to argue. people should understand that as fast as the democrats want to move toward impeachment, there's some legal procedures that are going to take place that probably some months ahead. i bet we'll hear more from

lawyers, less from politicians in the this next phase. >> some of your old senate colleagues have been pounding the podium in defense of president trump. yesterday a clip was circulating of then congressman lindsey graham in 1998 during the clinton impeachment talking about answering subpoenas. he said the day richard nixon failed to answer a subpoena was the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power away from congress and became the judge and jury. the white house, the president must comply with subpoenas. it must cooperate with an impeachment inquiry, and yet today many of these same republicans are defending the president and will defend that letter that the white house put out yesterday. >> i talked to some of my former colleagues just in the last week, and frankly it is -- there's trouble there. there is really some concern, and i think what they did yesterday is just going to amp that up even more, and lindsey, you know, god love him. he is having a really bad week

because -- >> week? >> well, if you look at what's happened, think about this. he sold his soul on the rationalization that he was in the room and impacting donald trump on foreign policy. that's what he sold his soul for. >> great. >> and now with this syria move, he has totally humiliated lindsey graham because he did it without even -- one phone call wither with erdogan and trucmptrump's >> i think erdogan's coming are for a visit now. i'd love to get david's take at some point. i know we're on the impeachment now. i'd love to get him to explain what happens with the over 10,000 isis terrorists that are going to be released if this scenario plays out the way it's currently playing. >> they're coming here. >> i don't think most americans understand, you know, especially in context of what we've done at

guantanamo where we've held onto a few dozen people, and the republicans go nuts about shutting it down, and meanwhile, donald trump is going to facilitate the unleashing of 10,000 terrorists back into and a lot of them came from other countries so they're going to have the ability to travel. anyway, sorry to get that in there. when we got david here, it's very hard for us not to address that. >> absolutely. >> really big problem that's not really being talked about. >> we'll talk about that next block. we also will let you respond to tim carney's vicious attack on you wearing a st. louis cardinals shirt today. >> yeah, well. >> i'm not rooting for the braves, trust me. >> cardinals fans get this all the time, a lack of respect in the big cities. we don't get the respect we deserve in new york and in boston, boston i can just tell you that. >> tim told you as a mets fan he will never root for the braves.

tim said there may be some democrats in a swing district that don't want to have a vote down. there are also republican senators, i know susan collins not looking forward to that vote, joni ernst in iowa where trump's upside down by 15 points. >> way upside down. >> wouldn't want to make that vote any more than cory gardner, thom tillis, anybody that's running in 2020 in these states that could swing either way. wouldn't you agree with me that a vote on impeachment is just like a vote on a supreme court justice like brett kavanaugh? there is no running. there is no hiding. get your position. state your position. i would much rather have the vote and justify the vote. yes, i voted for it, or no, i voted against it, and explain to people why you did that because they're going to find out anyway. you would rather have that discussion now than have it in the last two nt mmonths of your

campaign. >> yeah, and going forward with an impeachment inquiry, we're not talking about voting on the articles of impeachment. we're talking about kind of formalizing this. i don't really get why nancy is doing that because there are still republican congress folks that are in trouble if they have to make that vote. >> exactly. >> you know, we have a district in missouri that it will be a very difficult vote for the person who represents congress to vote against going forward with an inquiry, so i just think the country is in favor of it. i get it that there are lots of votes that are uncomfortable, especially if you're a freshman and you took out a republican, but i still believe that they're going to be better off legally, they have better legal standing to win all these battles, and a lot of this is going to be played out in the courts if they have done the formal vote. >> but nancy pelosi sees her job -- nancy pelosi sees her job as protecting her vulnerable members from difficult votes.

the idea that, well, it's legally better, that gets subordinated to politics. the idea that it puts some republicans in a difficult position, she's not answering to the potential democrat who might challenge that republican. she's answering to her members who are in that caucus room who voted for her to be speaker. so that's why we're not getting this original vote is that she doesn't want -- she sees it as her job to protect her vulnerable members from difficult votes. to play that sort of politics is ironically the same thing trump is doing. he is turning the government into his own political machine. she's got to rise above that. i don't think she will, but it would really be good for the country if she did. >> i think these polls are going to help her. i think she's going to figure out that she's got to convince those members that it looks way too wishy washy to not have this vote. most of them have said they're favoring the inquiry. they're wearing the dress, they might as well show it off. >> go to the dance, exactly. we're at a point now, tim, where

six out of ten americans actually support, almost six out of ten americans in some polls almost support the inquiry, you would think they would go ahead and step through that door. i think it makes a lot more sense to do exactly what you're saying the democrats should do. i want to ask you about something you wrote regarding rudy giuliani. if i were a republican in the house or the senate, my head would be exploding every time this guy got on tv and started babbling around. you wrote a great piece in the washington examiner. you said resolving-door rudy should basically pipe down, and that he's taking donald trump for a ride. it reminds me of those old stories of when reagan aides would put readers digest articles in front of reagan hoping to persuade his policies. so talk about revolving door rudy. >> you know the resolving door

is an unfortunate feature here in washington where these guys, they monetize their public service, and so rudy left the mayor's office a few years later became not a technical lobbyist but a lawyer working for lobbying firms and obviously doing lobbying type stuff internationally. and unfortunately, that's sort of the normal thing. the problem is that trump on those phone calls is telling zelensky, the president of ukraine, i'll have rudy call you. he's using rudy as a freelance diplomat at the same time that we know rudy has these energy industry clients out there in ukraine, in uzbekistan and that sort of thing, and so that's the blurring, where rudy's not charging donald trump. donald trump's not paying him out of the taxpayer dollars or campaign money. what i say in my column, is if you're not paying for the service, you are not the customer. you are the product. so donald trump is being used by rudy giuliani who has these clients in ukraine.

that's particularly worrisome when trump is then lending giuliani the credibility of the whole united states by telling a foreign president to call rudy. >> all right, tim carney, thank you very much. and still ahead on "morning joe," lindsey graham said he'd have the support of 85 to 90 senators to sanction turkey if it moves into syria. is our next guest among them? member of the armed services committee senator democrat gary peters joins the discussion next on "morning joe" ♪ ♪ ." ♪ i had to retire from law enforcement. it was devastating. one of my medications is three thousand dollars per month. prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. for sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. and we won't stop.

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to be stepping back from his campaign. also our thoughts and prayers are certainly with the senator's family right now. you look at the democratic nomination, elizabeth warren actually at 26.6% to joe biden's 26.4%. bernie sanders 14.6% and the real clear politics average. we're going to be talking about that later. also, coming up elizabeth warren under increased scrutiny for some statements she has made. we'll get into that too. before we do all of that, claire, you had wanted to talk to david ignatius about some questions you had about those 10,000 terrorists that apparently could very well be let loose on the region, across the middle east, across europe and back to america. >> yeah, david, i'd love you to go through what the situation is on the ground with these -- i think it's somewhere around

11,000 people who are actually in prison right now for being terrorists who want to kill everyone in the west, and they are no different than what we have held in guantanamo for years at an exorbitant cost to the american taxpayer. and donald trump, my understanding is he has given them a get out of jail free card by what he's done, and would you talk to that so that we can make sure that people understand this is one of the by-products of a guy who changes foreign policy on a dime when he talks to, frankly, an autocrat. >> you've put your finger on what i think is the most frightening possible consequence of this turkish invasion of syria, that president trump basically has condoned, has said he will not stand in the way of. as you say, there are about 10, 11,000 of the hardcore isis fighters who have been kept in

ramshackle prisons in northeast syria by our allies, the sdf, the syrian kurds. these are facilities that are old schoolhouses, you know, old institutional buildings. they're filthy. these prisoners are lice ridden. you can imagine the conditions. no one has been prepared to step in and have an orderly process for holding them, judging them, giving them some kind of pathway. the u.s. has been asking the european countries from which many of these fighters came, france, belgium, great britain to do something to take their nationals back, and the answer's been no. so essentially nothing has been done to prepare for this moment, and the fear is that as the turkish troops move in, as our syrian kurdish allies rush to the front, there's going to be nobody to guard these prisoners and they're going to escape. the turks told president trump last sunday night, mr. president, we'll take care of

it. which is ludicrous. many of these fighters came across the turkish border in the first place. that's how they got to syria. so i would say, claire, the most urgent issue right now is to have some kind of process to figure out how these most dangerous of the dangerous will be kept from harming our homeland, the british homeland, the french homeland in the weeks that are ahead. that's yjob one right now, i think. >> this situation where you talk about 11,000 of the most hardened isis fighters that have been kept in those prisons by our allies, the syrian kurds. it reminds me now that they must be hearing the news that the united states has gotten bored, has lost interest, is going to leave the region. it reminds me of what interrogators of ka lewd sick mohammad and others after 9/11

all reported that these al qaeda terrorists all said the same thing, we're patient. we're going to win this war because you americans become easily distracted. you'll go away, and we'll just continue the battle, and we'll actions are proving those suspicions about america being easily distracted and not having the will to fight the war against terrorism, proving those al qaeda members to be right. >> joe, i remember when i was first covering the middle east in the early 1980s, and we made a deployment of american marines to beirut, and they essentially got bombed out of beirut by a terrible car bomb, tragedy that some must remember, and the syrian foreign minister said back then, you americans are short of breath. i've never forgotten that.

one thing i would add to my comments to claire a moment ago that i really hope people will think about, there's a prison camp where the families of these isis detainees, their wives and children, other relatives are being held. there are as many as 70,000 at this camp, and i'm told it is about to blow, that as the isis pru prisoners begin to escape, they're going to want to go to their families. they're going to want to find their wives and children, and that kind of rampage, i think will gather momentum. the camp is now being guarded by united nations personnel. they are not going to stay in an insecure northeast turkey that's chaotic because of the turkish invasion. so that's one more thing that the international community urgently needs to think about. what happens to those isis families at this camp before it turns into a cyclone of

vengeance. >> with all this as the backdrop, let's bring in ranking member of the homeland security committee democratic senator gary peters of michigan. it's good to see you. let me ask you as a member of armed services, when did you learn of the president's decision to pull back in northeast syria? >> i think i learned about it like everybody learned about it, which was just with a tweet and press accounts. >> and what was your reaction to that decision? >> my reaction was this is a horrible decision. we need to be there. we need to make sure that the kurds were secure. these were folks who have been allies of ours. they have spilled blood fighting against isis. they are in a situation where if the united states pulls out they are in an incredibly precarious situation now with the turks moving across the border, i'm very fearful for the kurdish people. >> you weren't the only one surprised. all reports are that the

president unilaterally after a phone call with erdogan made this decision, didn't con sulsu with his national security advisers, the state department, the department of defense, the chief of staff mick mulvaney called the secretary of defense to inform him of this decision. what do you believe are the implications of this move, and number two, is there any process by which you can convince the president or by which the government can reverse the decision? >> stecertainly we are all speag out that this is a huge mistake. i think you're seeing that in a bipartisan fashion right now. this is something that kneads to be reversed and you mentioned implications, certainly the short-term implications of having all of these isis fighters who are in prison that may be released as you've been discussing earlier is significant, but the broader implication is what do our allies think about the united states? what do fighters who are fighting to help the united states, what are they thinking when they know that the united states can pull out on a dime

without any kind of discussion or indication that they are going to do it and put them in a very precarious position. this undermines our ability to work with allies all across the globe. this is about the worst type of foreign policy you can imagine. you know, the united states is strong because of our alliances. we work together with folks all across the world to support freedom and to make sure that american values are upheld, and when america pulls out and leaves our allies high and dry to defend themselves against a very dangerous adversary, that is a horrible precedent. no one's going to want to work with the united states. the united states needs to be a world leader. this is not how you about like a world leader. >> so senator, let's stick with that point. i mean, as you just pointed out the american handshake in terms of policy is now virtually me meaningless to many of our allies and certainly to people on the ground, but back here at home, the american handshake,

where the handshake begins, we have a brand newly installed chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, you're a member of the armed services committee, you've spoken about when you found out about this policy change, reading it on a tweet. in terms of policy, do you now know when the chairman of the joint chiefs found out about this, did he participate? did any of the flag offices on the joint chief staff participate in this decision-making prior to the president's tweet? >> i'm not aware of that. i have no information to give you, but it raises a very, very serious question. i think we need to be briefed, some of my colleagues, and i join them have asked for a briefing of the entire senate when we get back. we need to know what transpired and when because this is not the way that you conduct foreign policy clearly. >> senator, your republican colleagues were willing to come out on this in a bipartisan way,

which incredibly important, but when it comes to the president asking ukraine to interfere in our elections, they're silent. they don't talk about that. they don't come in and talk about it in a bipartisan way. why is that? >> i wish i knew. this should be bipartisan. this is a very, very serious situation. if you look at the facts as we know them now from the transcript, we know the president engaged in a district conversation with the ukrainian president, asked for a favor to be engaged with -- in the election in digging up dirt on his political opponent. this is something that a president of the united states should never do regardless of what party that they are in, and yet, my republican colleagues are silent. my hope is that as facts continue to come out that my republican colleagues will understand that their duty to this country is the most important duty that they have. we have all taken an oath of

office to uphold the united states constitution, and i would hope that would be their central focus as we continue to go down this path. >> all right, senator gary peters, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> and we'll have that elizabeth warren story that owe mentijoe coming up. and as we go to break, joe brought up this terrible news, just a moment ago senator bernie sanders daughter-in-law has passed away from cancer at the age of 46. this comes just days after the 2020 candidate suffered a heart attack. we want to send our condolences to the senator and his family this morning. we'll be right back. humira patients, you inspire us.

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joe," and the classic don quixote, a man obsessed with the chivalrous ideas touted in romantic novels sets off with his pragmatic squire. joining us now author salman rushd rushdie, he's here with his new book that landed on the booker prize short list. great to see you this morning. >> how do you go about reimagining don quixote in the 21st surgery. >> i wanted to write a road novel about america anyway. it struck me that these were the perfect companions to take along the road. then what happened very quickly is that the characters stopped being like cervantes characters and became like mine. in cervantes, he's a very earthy adult person. in many case, he's a kind of

mutinous teenager. he prefers the french pronunciation is unlike the famous knight in that the chara knight of the count nance with a sad face and my character was from the beginning when i started writing about him was ludicrously optimistic from everything about love to america and i thought the idea of preparing somebody so hopeful across a landscape that might not be the hopeful in american history. that might be an interesting way into the story. >> you're quick to point out donald trump is not himself in this book but the world around donald trump and the era we live in is the back drop for the story. >> because i think the world is pretty crazy right now and not only in america. that is to say similar phenomenal and the characters are indian-american and i think

there is a variation of the same thing going on in all three places and when the world becomes as insane as this, the novel has to decide how insane it has to be in order to reflect that world. >> david ignatius has a question for you. david? >> salman, you courageously were a truth-teller about the islamic world, your book was in jeopardy for a long while. we just had the anniversary of the death of my colleague jamal khashoggi, a truth-teller, and i ask whether you see a greater audience in the middle east for telling the truth and being more open and the news and fiction that we hope is part of honest, open life. >> i hope that is so. i know middle east -- i'm no middle east specialist or

traveled widely in the region but i think there are many indications that people everywhere in the world when given the chance to hear the truth and to have more freedom in their lives, they want it. that is what the arab spring was about. it didn't work out the way it was supposed to but it was the idea. so i believe the feeling is there. and whether it wins or not, that is another matter. >> claire. >> what about the relationship -- i love you to comment on the relationship between modi and president trump. the idea that the indian's leader came to the united states and basically did a politic rally with the president. reflect on that and who is influencing who here? does modi influence or is trump captured modi? >> i think in a way they're both playing to their own audiences. i think one of the big differences between them is that the trump operation, the trump project is kind of at best

marginal. there is as much opposition as support. whereas modi is unbelievably popular. and he's colossally popular and so he's in a much stronger position. so if anybody is teaching anybody, it is that way around. >> so you've written multiple novels at this point and you were talking about this really reflects kind of insanity that we're in right now. looking at racism and opioid crisis. what is the main difference that you have that you've seen from writing this novel from past novels? what was the most difficult thing? >> when i came to live in america 20 years ago and i was actually ludicrously optimistic myself. my character quixote and i was happy to be here and 20 years later it is difficult to have that feeling. and in a way that is why i wanted to use that part of

myself, the kind of part that is hopeful and optimistic and put that against the reality of the present day because i do think it feels funny to be that optimistic. >> wow! >> all right. on that note -- >> shot anyone? vodka. the new book is quixote, salman rushdie. still ahead, the white house has settled on a strategy to fight back against impeachment tweeting stonewalling congress and bringing on trey gowdy as outside counsel. we'll dig into that and their letter that they sent and the new polls that show more americans getting behind the push for impeachment. "morning joe" is coming right back. is coming right back

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to detecting and preventing threats... to scaling up your production. giving you a nice big edge over your competition. that's the power of edge-to-edge intelligence. the notion that you can withhold information and documents from congress, no matter whether you're the party in power or not in power is wrong. respect for the rule of law must mean something irrespective of the vicicitudes. >> i have a great idea. this is my great idea, mika. >> you always have the good ones. >> that is what the kids say. i think that the democrats

should hire that man, trey gowdy, to be like a special counsel for the impeachment inquiry because he spoke so honestly and so eloquently and so passionately about -- doggone it, it is like mattlock. come on now. mrs. jones, that fur hat wasn't really yours, wasn't it, it is your daughters and you're covering up for her. let's just tell the truth about the fur hat and the fried chicken stains on the hat and puts you there where the murder was in the back of the -- >> okay. >> i'm saying, willie, he does that matlock stuff. don't you think he would be perfect for the democrats since he spoke so forcefully about transparency. >> and the rule of law and no one is above the law.

>> absolutely. >> the advithe vicicitude, does everybody agree. >> yes. >> okay. well listen, nancy, if your listening we think you should hire -- >> he's joining trump's legal team. >> no, but wait. >> as an outside counsel. okay. >> i'm just a cave man lawyer but i do not understand your strange ways. >> maybe it will be helpful in the process. okay. welcome back to "morning joe." it is wednesday, october 9th, along with joe, willie and me we have msnbc contributor and david ignatius and professor of the presidency at vanderbilt university john meacham and now an nbc law enforcement analyst chuck rosenberg.

so let's get right to the fast-moving developments in the push to impeach president trump. a new quinnipiac poll is the latest to show a majority of americans now support the impeachment inquiry 53%. this follows yesterday's washington post poll of which found 58% of americans support the house probe. a 21-point increase since july. that is a big jump. >> it is. and, willie, we around the table go oh, what is this, it doesn't matter and the election is still a long way off. i will say no polls matter more than the impeachment polls. you see members of even the republican senate start to move, saying a word hear or there when the numbers jump up. and nancy pelosi and the

democrats in the house have breathing room. nobody can say it is a political witch hunt when 55%, 56%, 57%, 58% of americans actually support that impeachment inquiry. or if they do call it a witch hunt, it just hurts them even more. because the majority of americans want to see this impeachment inquiry move forward on donald trump. >> yeah. a majority in almost every one of the polls want to see it go forward and you got to the key because that is when you see movement in the united states congress. all of the senators and congressmen and women who have been puzzling silent over the last several weeks and months and if it gets to the point in the state or district, where the voter, who can re-elect them, this is what they move. that is the way it workz. and if the polls move, so too will the -- >> and president trump said the other day, we'll show this later, i saw my poll numbers

went up -- and it was like for impeachment, donald, we're talking about impeaching you. but he doesn't watch. we'll have more on the polling in a moment. we learned yesterday the trump administration will not cooperate with the inquiry calling it illegitimate and unconstitutional. we have the first sign of that when the state department blocked e.u. ambassador gordon sondland from testifying before congress. democrats responded to that by issuing a subpoena to compel his testimony and documents related to the president's efforts to get ukrainian officials to investigate joe biden and his son. and remember the text message that diplomat bill taylor sent sondland that said it was, quote, crazy to withhold military aid to ukraine to help the president's campaign? a source now tells nbc news that before responding hours later,

quote, no quid pro quo, sondland called and consulted with the president. there is also new reporting related to the president's call with the president of ukraine. according to "the new york times," one day after that call the whistle-blower wrote a memo about a white house official who was, quote, visibly shaken, after listening to the conversation. and citing two sources, cnn is reporting the president's demand for energy secretary rick perry and two other top state department officials to work with rudy giuliani on ukraine dates back to at least may. and then there is this. despite the president's quest to prove that ukraine interfered in the 2016 election to help hillary clinton, the republican-led senate intelligence committee released a bipartisan report yesterday that affirms the assessment from the intelligence community that russia used a vast social media campaign to help trump win the

election. joe, a lot to unpack here before we even get to the white house response to the impeachment inquiry. >> why don't we start with the last item. john meacham, republicans and defenders, people who blindly defend donald trump regardless always seize on the mueller report and say there was no collusion, a russian witch hunt and it was a hoax and breeze past all of the troubling findings in there. we still have a president who is still chasing down conspiracy theories across the world with his attorney general instead of worrying about what is going on at home, trying to prove that the russians, in fact, were not at the center of it that it was somebody else, crowdstrike. here we have the republican-led intel committee and the senate saying for history as a matter

of fact that the russians actually did influence our 2016 election. they tried to influence it at least for the sake of donald trump. they are now lined up with the fbi, the cia, the nsa, every federal agency now agrees on the same thing, along with the senate intel committee. that the russians tried to influence the election to help elect donald trump. the only person in washington apparently who still doesn't believe this is donald trump. >> right. well he says he doesn't believe it. and i suspect what we're going to see here is a renewal of the outrage of the concern of the fact that our national security has been at risk here. and we don't have to be hysterical about it.

this doesn't have to be a partisan issue. that is the critical thing here. these are pretty cold facts. stone cold to use one of the president's favorite lokusions and i go back to the crazy liberal dick cheney who said if, in fact, russia tried to tamper and influence the elections it was an act of war. well here we have it. and i think that also puts the entire story in a context that again no matter where you stand on the ideology spectrum, be driven by the facts. and as you say, here is a republican-led committee saying what seems to be obvious and that is the context in which we're dealing here. we have been under attack from a foreign power that wants to sow chaos. and they've done it. here we are.

>> well, you know, david ignatius, i think at this point we need to go down the list again because it is so damning to the president and mitch mcconnell. both of whom continue to try to block all efforts to put up the type of security that we need to prevent russia from interfering in 2020. but you have trump's director of the fbi, trump's appointed director of the cia, trump's past director passed in the eye and the secretary department of homeland security all saying directly that this was an imminent threat to american democracy. you even had trump's acting ndi go to the hill last week and saying far more than the thermo nuclear blast from north korea or another country, the gravest threat to america was russia interfering in our elections.

you now have the republican-led senate intel committee drawing this same conclusion. and again not only donald trump but mitch mcconnell doing absolutely nothing to protect us in 2020 from a similar attack that all of these agencies say is the greatest threat to american democracy. >> joe, i think the importance of this bipartisan senate report is that it undermines the narrative that donald trump's attorney general william barr even now is trying to construct about some kind of deep state plot to do in the president, to campaign against him, to reverse his election. that is what barr has been traveling around europe trying to gather evidence to support. and here is the senate intelligence committee led by republicans which said, no,

whatever barr turns up is irrelevant to the facts that we have gathered that show russian attempts to interfere in our election and to support trump and hinder hillary clinton and that is the key. it is one more voice but a particularly important one. but we'll hear more about that counter narrative. that is just beginning to crest. and there are a lot of people out there who support donald trump who believe it. so it is really important to have this bipartisan counter evidence come out now. >> and as they might say in congress. just a point of personal privilege here. i came into congress in 1994 with a lot of people who were conservative fire brands who said they were going to fight for the conservative cause. i've seen so many of them fall by the wayside, some of them act in ways that have disappointed not only me but real conservatives. going to say, i came in with richard burr and i did not expect all of these years later,

20 years later that he would be the one who was really one of the most steadfast advocates, one of the straightest shooters for the rule of law, for truth, for protecting the country. i always liked him but he wasn't a fire brand. he quietly sat back and did his job and i'll be darned if he's not the guy out of all of those that i came in with who right now is putting his country above his party. it is a very rare thing sadly in washington, d.c. these days. but that is what he's doing. >> joe, you said that exactly -- exactly right. he's got the back of his ranking member mark warner and mark warner has richard burr's back and that is the way it is supposed to work. >> this is the way washington is supposed to work and that is the way it does work when american leaders are doing the right thing. and are more interested in helping america move forward than their own political

careers. >> still ahead on "morning joe," you can't talk about the impeachment of president trump without mentioning the attorney general's role in all of this. we'll dig into the latest surroundi surrounding william barr. that is next on "morning joe." without my medication, my small tremors would be extreme. without it, i cannot write my name. i was diagnosed with parkinson's. i had to retire from law enforcement. it was devastating. one of my medications is three thousand dollars per month. prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. for sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. and we won't stop. join us in fighting for what's right. new pasta and grill combos starting at $9.99.

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nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. so chuck rosenberg, we talked early on about the trump white house basically declaring war on this impeachment inquiry. let's talk about what it is and what it isn't. during the mueller investigation time and again i was concerned about a constitutional crisis if donald trump fired mueller or a saturday night massacre or a judicial ruling came down and the trump administration refused to follow that judicial ruling. that would have been a constitutional crisis. this is more of a politic battle.

a pitched, heated political battle but not necessarily a constitution crisis, so that being said -- this isn't nixon defying the supreme court if he defied the supreme court, these are two branches of government fighting each other. so is there a legal remedy? can the committee chairman and chairwomen go to the courts and have testimony compelled? >> theoretically, yes, but practicely it will take a long time. you know this from having served as a member and this is done through accommodation but here the white house signaled clearly they don't want to accommodate anyone or anything. one thing to take from this, some context if you will, because i was a prosecutor for a long time, a lots of times people that we investigate, subjects or targets, don't cooperate and they destroy documents and withhold evidence or lie or counsel others to lie and nevertheless we could

prosecute our cases. in fact, if you want a real life example, look at volume two of the mueller report where the white house obstructed the investigation for months on end and the mueller team was still able to detail what happened. and why can they do that? because there are other places to go to get information. right now we're seeing that. even with the ukraine matter, there is a lot of information out there from other sources, from text messages, from recollections, from testimony that the investigators will get even without the white house's cooperation. so deeply unfortunate. not terribly surprising. but it doesn't mean that the investigation comes to a dead halt. >> and, willie, it is not like the white house, the executive branch is holding all of the cards. the house has the power of the purse. they have the checkbook. they could creatively figure out ways to squeeze the white house, to squeeze donald trump. at least we did that time and again where we squeezed the

white house and at the very least you get people sitting down at the table and figure out how do we break this impasse. >> yeah, because when you get to the point where the house is issuing subpoenas and the white house is now saying explicitly in a letter sent to the house we're not going to comply with any of that, what do you do? and you just offered one solution to it. but it is kind of a moment, mike, where both sides are sit there and stare at each other in a standoff. it is rare you see in this letter that the white house sent over to the congress, just that we'll obstruct your investigation. we put it down in writing. it is a politic defense written in trump language masquerading as a -- >> that is what it is. you nailed it. i read it last night. eight pages from the white house counsel and one third of it is legalese and two thirds is a politic track. but the fuse out of it and i realize that most schools, most

high schools and grammar schools no longer teach civics but this letter and the behavior and the trump administration is an announcement there is only one branch of government, the executive branch of government and, chuck, to that point the executive branch of government and this is referenced by david ignatius a couple of minutes ago, the continuing role of the attorney general of the united states in all of this, bill barr, from the get-go, from his preemptive announcement about what was in the mueller report, what was not in the mueller report skewing people's perceptions of the report to his latest venture overseas with john durham assigned as an independent investigator and he was the attorney general apparently looking over his shoulder as he tries as the attorney general tries to concoct some alternative theory to what happened in 2016. you're a veteran prosecutor, you're a veteran of the justice

department. you're a veteran of the fbi. what is your reaction to him? >> i had said for months, mike, that i thought barr was a principled institutionalist and then i said on the show i think i was wrong. i have been flat out wrong. i've been deeply disappointed by what i've seen. and that first thing that sort of shook me was mr. barr's mischaracterization of bob mueller's work and as you know and as you've said, once that lie is out there, it is hard for the truth to catch up. and we saw that with the mueller report. people still don't understand what bob mueller found. and that is deeply disappointing. that said, i also have confidence in john durham. i know john, i trust john and i like john and i respect john. what i'm worried about is not john or his findings or his work. what i'm worried about, as with the mueller report, is the tendency for this attorney general to mischaracterize that work. and that is the danger.

it is not what john is doing or what john might find it is how john's work might be spun. and that is what is so disappointing to me, mike. >> coming up on "morning joe," turkey is poised to wage war on a close american ally and president trump is standing aside. we'll get the very latest on syria with new reporting from david ignatius next on "morning joe." >> woman: what's my safelite story? >> vo: my car is more than four wheels. it's my after-work decompression zone. so when my windshield broke... >> woman: what?! >> vo: ...i searched for someone who really knew my car. i found the experts at safelite autoglass.

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the turkish military together with the free syrian army will cross the syrian border shortly, according to turkey's communications director who in a tweet last night said kurdish militants in the region could either defect or stopped by turkish forces from disrupting their push against isis militants. turkish officials tell reuters that it is military yesterday struck the syrian/iraqi border to prevent kurdish forces from using the route to reinforce

northeast syria. david ignatius, you have new reporting on what may be imminent. what are you hearing? >> mika, i was told last night that this turkish attack across the border, air and on the ground, would come within the next 24 hours. this morning, talking to my sources who are in touch with fighters at the border on the u.s. side, i'm told so far there is only been probing. the turkish attack has not begun yet. so perhaps there is a moment of reflection as the turks see the enormous criticism coming especially from the u.s. congress. i talked last night with senator lindsey graham who said that as soon as congress returns from its recess, he will introduce a motion to sanction turkey if turkey invades and he told me he thinks he has 85 to 90 votes to

support that motion. extraordinary swell of criticism of turkey. two other important developments i want to mention. first, as the turks prepare for their invasion across the border in northeastern syria, russian and syrian regime forces further south are said to be moving up toward the kurdish areas to catch the kurds in a kind of pinser and reduce the area under their control and finally and this is what should frighten up the most, there are many thousands, the estimates go as high as 10,000, former isis prisoners who have been held in ram shackle facilities by the kurds who may be able to escape if the turkish invasion happens and the kurds who are guarding them have to flee to go to the front lines to fight the turks.

that means some of the most dangerous people on the planet, people who want to target britain, france, the united states, could suddenly be free. i'm sorry to say that the united states government, after looking at this question for months, still has no plan to deal with the possibility that these isis fighters could suddenly be at large. isis was attacking last night in raqqah, their former capital which we destroyed and there we -- there were three suicide bombs in iraqa last night and that is just a reminder this menace could be on the way back if president trump's decision goes forward in turkey. >> david, two questions. one, who controls the air space now today along the border? does the united states government control -- who controls the air space? and two, wheel we seemingly doesn't seem to have a plan, does assad have a plan?

>> first on the air pace, we have the assets to control the air space. i'm told that we have taken turkey out of the coordinated air command center, the so-called cac, which coordinates the traffic in the space. so it is a warning to turkey, you're not on the team. be careful. you could get shot down if you operate. in terms of planning for the future, i think our military, which has done such a superbon in northern syria has been so disconcerted by the president's policy almost by whim or make a phone call to the president of turkey and things will emerge from the call that nobody, not the chairman of the joint chiefs or the secretary of defense had any idea it was coming so they

are just struggling to keep up. >> david, it is willie. your tweets last night that summarized your reporting on this story were so arresting. people talked about them last night given the specifics you had. i'm curious of the time frame on this. we're only 48 hours out from the president's public announcement that the united states would step aside and let turkey go in. turkey clearly was ready to do this. what has been the reaction from the military, from the pentagon, from the special operators for example who worked side-by-side with the sdf for all of the months and now have to stand aside and watch what you describe as a potential massacre. >> willie, i think the only way you could put it is bitter disappointment. these people have seen brave allies fight because the united states asked them to. the kurds in syria have lost 11,000 dead, 24,000 wounded. destroying this menace of isis.

we in this same period, 2014 to now, have lost less than 10 people. so people who did the killing and dies were the kurds and for americans who fought with them, to see them abandoned has been painful. that said, they do what they're told. there are military, commander-in-chief gives a order and they figure out a way to carry it out. they are hoping and praying that our discussion on "morning joe," what is written on the papers and what is on twitter may delay, forestall president trump's actions. senator lindsey grahams comments calling late at night last night to say i'm serious, senator is on the record and you bet it is on the record and i want you to talk about the fact that we are committed to try to turn this policy around. so we'll see. but for the military it is a tough, bitter pill to swallow. >> coming up on "morning joe," it took hours for a u.s. ambassador to respond to a

diplomat's concerns about linking ukraine aid to domestic politics. plenty of time, apparently, to talk to trump and get on the same page. that new development is ahead on "morning joe." that new development is ahead on "morning joe."

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and people inside from accidentally visiting sites that aren't secure. and if someone trys we'll let you know. xfi advanced security. if it's connected, it's protected. call, click, or visit a store today. new details about the trump administration behind the scenes conversations regarding ukraine. in text messages released last week, the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine ambassador bill taylor texted e.u. ambassador gordon sondland, quote, as i said on the phone, i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a politic campaign. sondland responded more than four hours later telling taylor

that trump, quote, has been crystal clear, no quid pro quos of any kind and suggests they stop discussing the matter vie a text messages. well yesterday we learned that before sending that response, sondland spoke directly with president trump on the phone. that is according to a person with knowledge of the call who also said taylor was urged to stop texting about his concerns. that source along with two congressional aiding tell nbc that sondland and taylor and former u.s. envoy to ukraine kurt volker used the messaging app what's app along with text messages to discuss the trump administration's ukraine efforts. the use of what's app has raised questions about potential compliance with federal record-keeping requirements. joining us now, member of the house appropriations committee

democratic congressman mark pocan of wisconsin. thank you for being on the show. >> thank you. >> first of all, what is going to happen? what is the plan? given the fact that the white house is just said no, there is no impeachment. we're not participating. >> yeah, this is just the white house's newest attempt to try to think they're above the law. they don't have to participate in the process. and i think where we're at is house democrats were not taking it any more. we're figuring out every possible way to compel folks, if not we'll move ahead and add that to any articles of obstruction. but we sent a letter to secretary pompeo regarding a provision in the annual recurring budget process section 713 that says you could go after the pay of anyone who directs someone not to participate with a committee inquiry and we're going to start being more aggressive on this because we have to make people have to be within the law and they're not

doing that. >> claire. >> congressman, we had an important argument in front of the supreme court yesterday as it relates to gay rights in this country. and interestingly enough the justices that proclaimed they wanted to not go outside of the letter of the law in interpreting the law are on the fence here because clearly the 1964 law says the word discrimination on the basis of sex and so a strict interpretation would be this includes discrimination of people because they are gay. the thing about that argument that struck me and i love your take on it was gorsuch saying if they found in favor of the employees on discrimination, it would cause massive social upheaval. now that is what i would define as an out of touch supreme court justice. you could explain that. >> my first state of wisconsin was the first back in 1983, a

law signed by a republican governor to protect gay and lesbian people, at the time not transgender, from discrimination in employment and housing. so we've this in place for a long time. wisconsin is a nice play to live. we haven't had any real problems and i think they're out of touch in trying to put the administration's ideas forward in this area around discrimination. what they're going to ultimately do is reopen the ability for people across the country to be discriminated against and right now in a majority of the states you could be legally married on a saturday and on monday be fired and losing your housing and that is perfectly legal by the law. so this is an important provision, the three cases heard yesterday are there to protect people like myself and my husband so we don't have to be discriminated against and unfortunately i think the court is way out of whack on this. >> congressman back on to the topic of impeachment, your effort to basically remove

secretary pompeo's paycheck from him, isn't that kind of weak. i mean, that's not going to happen? >> well here is what is happening. i just did town halls in every county in my district and i have rural counties, i have madison, wisconsin but every town hall people are saying they think the president is above the law and not complying. we could do criminal contempt to go to the u.s. attorney and they go to bill barr and that will not happen and we could go through civil contempt and that is a long court process and many of the things that we have to compel are not easy to do if the president and the white house don't want to agree to work with us. this is something we can do. we did it in 2016. the republicans did it against a hud official and the gao came in and went after their salaries so let's start fighting back. i think that is what people want us to do. they're tired of a president who thinks he is above the law and they know he put his own personal interests above our

national security and they're upset. and i think this is just trying to react to the people in my district saying do whatever you can. we have to start playing a little tougher. >> so wisconsin is obviously going to be a key state in 2020. a key state. in your town hall meetings with constituents, especially the rural more conservative constituents, did you get any sense that one of the bottom lines they are arriving at is the guy, trump, simply can't do the job. >> impeachment was the number one issue at every town hall and health care and prescription drug prices are up there and but in the rural directs, the farm economy, secretary purdue came to wisconsin last week and said small farms need to go away, go big or go home which is the exact opposite of what message we want to hear in wisconsin. we've lost 1600 family farms just since donald trump became president and the tweeting tariffs that the president has been doing is having a devastating impact on my dairy

farmers, my corn growers and soybean farmers and the assistance provided is pennies to what they actually need to still be in business. so there is a lot of angst in the rural communities and they're really being devastated by so many of the president's actions. >> congressman mark pocan, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you for having me. to other politics, for the first time the primary cycle massachusetts senator elizabeth warren is leading former vice president joe biden in the national real clear politics average for the 2020 democratic nomination. warren beats biden by two tenths of a point in the national polls. warren maintains an almost three-point advantage in the first in the nation caucus state of iowa. biden maintains leads in the early voting states of new hampshire, nevada and south carolina. according to the real clear politics averages. and with her front-runner status is coming some new scrutiny.

warren stands by her account of being fired from her first teaching job in riverdale, new jersey, because she was pregnant, despite criticism from conservative media pointing out differences in her story. warren tweeted, quote, when i was 22 and finishing my first year of teaching i had an experience millions of women will recognize. by june i was visibly pregnant and the principal told me the job i had already been promised for the next year would go to someone else. minutes from several riverdale -- minutes from several riverdale board of education meetings reviewed by nbc news show that warren from april 21st 1971 was issued a two-day a week speech contract for her second year of teaching. warren, who would have been about four months pregnant at the time told cbs news that she had kept her pregnancy a secret. two months later, minutes from a

board meeting on june 16th, says warren's resignation was accepted with regret. warren said the job offer for the second year was rescinded once she was visibly pregnant and two former teachers who work at the school at the same time as warren told cbs news it was standard practice to be pushed out once you were five months pregnant. some conservative media outlets have recently pointed to a 2007 interview in which warren did not mention her pregnancy as a reason for leaving her job. warren's campaign told "the washington post" that the differences in the story came from her opening up more about the account since her first run for office in 2012. this is latest issue that has stirred up controversial among the new democratic national front-runners detactors. her past claim of native american ancestry results in

apology to tribes this year and that the police who murdered the 18-year-old was awarded four pinocchios by a washington post fact check. so karine and claire, help me out here. are either of the two issues, the pocahontas and then this pregnancy story, do you feel they will stick? >> the one on the pregnancy story, i think i feel like that is a far reach for her distractors as you call them. because if you ask any woman in the 1970s and beyond, pregnancy discrimination is a real issue and it could be that she just didn't want to talk about that at that time. >> totally makes sense. >> and it totally makes sense. as if there must not have been involved in the research they are doing because i think that issue will help warren. i don't think it will hurt her or force supporters to look the

other way or question that. >> claire? >> i agree with karine and i think the pregnancy thing is bogus because i remember hiding the fact that i had young children when running for office and that is in the early 90s. >> when i was pregnant in the news business i was so scared i wouldn't get a promotion. >> it is tough. but this is now the new normal. she has front-runner status now, she and joe biden are locked in ray close battle and there is going to be more incoming. so this is now where she'll have to get used to a defensive crouch and figure out how she pivots and stays on office. >> so you have to be precise running against donald trump. >> which is weird. >> he's never precise. >> yes. but i guess you want to give him no holes to -- and the claiming of native american ancestry, she's apologized it is a krincher. i don't think -- people who go to her rallies, go to her speeches, even those who are on the fence, they come out of

there all in. she has a candidacy that is strong and appears to be working. >> and she is now officially, the numbers have show, she is caught up to joe biden. it was a long climb over the summer and steady climb and these there. she is not the front-runner. they are tied. they are dual front-runners and look at the african-american voters because joe biden has had a lead there and she's chipping away there too. >> very slowly. >> up to 20%. >> is it her or trump chipping away at biden's lead? >> if you look at biden's numbers in the poll and the last three weeks of biden coverage, those numbers actually, you could see he's showing amazing resilience. >> he's strong with his base. and so is bernie. when it comes to their base, they are very, very strong. i think what is happening is you're seeing what we saw over the summer is this kind of surge from elizabeth warren and now it is playing out in polls. >> up next, how private companies are showing leadership when the u.s. government is not.

the ceo of dick's sporting goods joins us for that conversation. and as we go to break, a look at what is happening at know your value.com. karine, you have a piece and thank you you have a piece, i love this. karine talks about the "three times i had to know my value," and that's really important. and we have a lot of great stuff on the website this week. we're talking about social media and mental health, which is important and totally connected. larissa may has a piece on how you really ought to share your life in a more unfiltered way. and joan kuehl has a great article about dealing with uncomfortable situations at work. the piece is so helpful. it is tangible. >> translator: things, you read that and you take away, and you'll have more successful relationships at work. it's all at knowyourvalue.com. we'll be right back. vo: an important message from medicare. spokesman: fraudsters - they're out to get your medicare number so they can bill fake

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performance comes in lots of flavors. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪ welcome back to "morning joe." in 2016, dick's sporting goods ceo pulled assault weapons from his stores. instead of returning the guns to their manufacturers, the company decided to destroy more than $5 million worth of semiautomatic rifles -- >> wow. >> -- to make sure they did not make their way back to the market. joining us now, chairman and ceo

of dick's sporting goods and author of "it's how we play the game: build a business, take a stand, make a difference," ed stack. good morning! nice to meet you. >> thanks for having me. >> take us through the decision, first of all, in the wake of the horrific tragedy in parkland last year. the company decision -- what do you weigh in that decision? obviously, you're going to lose some money selling guns. what does that look like in that boardroom when you're talking about making that decision? >> well, we talked about it after the shooting happened. we got our management team together and talked about this and just said, we don't want to be a part of this story any longer, from the assault-style weapons, and decided we were going to take those off the shelf. we talked about it, and our cfo said, all right, if we're going to do this, we've got to sit down and talk about what's going to be the financial implication. so we sat down and looked at the financial implication, and then we went and we talked to our board. and then we went and made our decision, our announcement on february 28th, that we would no longer sell any assault-style weapons in any stores.

we had already taken them out of the dick's stores after the sandy hook massacre, but we would no longer sell assault-style weapons at any of the stores, wouldn't sell high-capacity magazines and we encouraged, we thought, we decided we weren't going to sell any guns to anyone under 21 years of age and asked congress to come together with the intent to actually solve the problem. one of the issues, to take the age to 21 -- you have to be 21 years old in this country to buy a handigan frgun from a company us. you can buy the assault-style weapon that was used in sandy hook or parkland or so many of those shootings at 18, and that just doesn't make any sense to us. >> so, what was the impact on your bottom line? did you lose money because of this decision? >> we lost about -- we figured it would impact our business about $250 million in sales, not only from the loss of what hunt business we would lose, but then also people would say, i'm not going to shop with you any longer just because i don't agree with your stance. >> right. >> and it was about $250 million we lost in sales. our team did a great job trying

to replace those sales with other categories and we took a bit of a hit, but we've turned that around right now. our last quarter, comps were up 3%. we've raised our guidance for the balance of the year and we're doing -- our business is actually doing great. >> you know, the cultural aspect of that decision a lot of people find interesting, including -- and the cultural aspect, i mean by people now seem to want to do business with companies like dick's sporting goods that they don't feel ashamed to be doing business with, that they feel a kind of pride because of your decision. do you find that? >> well, we had a number of people who were really upset with us and said they would never shop with us again. >> sure. >> and we had a number of people who said you know what, we're really pleased with what you've done, we're happy with what you've done and they shop with us again. i remember, we got a number of emails after we made the announcement, and one in particular, a woman sent a message and said, i was listening to you on the radio driving to work today and i had to pull over to the side of the road because i was crying

unkroebly because i thought my kids were just a little bit safer in school today than they were yesterday. and that had a pretty profound effect on us. >> ed, i think one of the things that you have demonstrated is a controversial issue, and that is, is your job just to return money for your stockholders and the people who invest in your business and your employees, or is there a responsibility beyond that? you clearly have come down on one side of the line. >> mm-hmm. >> and i've seen more and more businesses doing that. do you think the gun issue is really going to be a tipping point for more civic responsibility as it relates to business ceos and owners around the country? >> well, i think it's one that kind of gives a roadmap of what you can do. but we've always been really involved in the community, and everything we've always done has been around kids. which is why we're really focused on two things, the gun issue, and then our sports

foundation where there's a big funding crisis in youth sports today. >> right. >> and there's ruffle 24% of the public high schools in this country that don't have a sports program. and if you think about that -- >> that's amazing. >> -- it's catastrophic for kids. >> that's a big problem. >> these kids get out of school at 2:30, 3:00 in the afternoon and they've got no place to go. and kids need a place to go where they feel they belong, where they're with their friends, where they can be mentored by these coaches, and where they can get their self-esteem. and so many kids aren't going to get their self-esteem in the classroom. they get that self-esteem because they can shoot a basketball, they can hit a baseball or sing in the school play. and all of these extracurricular activities are important for the kids and we're losing those, and probably in the places where they're needed no eed most, inn. >> and i'm channeling mika, the physical activity is a huge thing for this health. also is a huge public policy issue also. >> it is. and we did a movie called "we could be king" about the doomsday budget in philadelphia a few years ago where two rival

schools were put together. and we filmed this football team at practice, at school, in the streets, at games. and you watch these young men who are coached by this young 26-year-old guy who is just terrific to these kids, and you watch these kids at practice and go, they're not at football practice. where are they? >> that's right. >> it's tough it get to a good place. >> yep. >> so, ed, obviously, the shootings you point to in parkland, places like sandy hook, where ar-14 is used. those are the most publicized and in many ways the most horrific. but you also know that the vast majority of gun violence comes from handguns. so people who are listening to you saying we don't want these guns on streets, the ar-15s, we were horrified by what we saw, is it raises the question, why sell guns at all? if handguns are even more dangerous than an ar-15? >> well, the ar-15 has been used in these mass shootings. and i'm a gun owner. you know, i believe in the second amendment. and the vast majority of people are law-abiding citizens. >> sure. >> and you know, we've taken a look at where we're going to be in the gun business going

forward. we took guns out of ten stores last, fourth quarter, kind of talked about that the business was great. those stores outperformed the balance of the stores. we've done that with another 125 stores this spring, and we've got the whole category under strategic review. >> is there any thought about removing all guns from your stores? >> the whole category is under strategic review and we're looking at where we want to be in the gun business going forward. >> wow. the book is "how we play the game," and i guess that's it right there. you explained a lot. but are you hoping others will follow your lead? you talk about taking a stand here. >> well, we think that if you have an expertise on something and there's an issue and you have a real expertise, which we do in the gun business -- we're one of the largest firearms dealers in the country -- and you see there's an issue, you should stand up and say something. we found out that we sold the shooter in parkland a shotgun a couple of months before. it wasn't the gun that was used in the shooting, but we just said at that point, the system's

broken. that kid shouldn't -- >> come on, yeah. >> the nic system should never have allowed that kid to buy a gun. >> and we will end on that note. ed stack, thank you very much. >> thanks, ed. >> really appreciate you coming on the show. >> thank you. >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika. hi, there. i'm stephanie ruhle. it is wednesday, october 9th, a critical day in the showdown between president trump and democrats in congress. that is because the white house has now made it crystal clear they have zero intention of cooperating with the impeachment inquiry in any way, shape or form. on tuesday, the administration sent a stunning eight-page letter to house democratic leaders criticizing the whole process as unconstitutional and unfair, arguing it violates the president's right to due process. and because they view the inquiry as illegitimate, the letter says the executive branch cannot be expected to participate. in other words, no documents will be handed over and no witnesses will be