criticize, but people around him suggested he still would be heard from. if not now, when? >> we have a seat for you. my thanks to elise, basil, michael, thank you for watching. i'm any nicolle wallace. "mtp daily" with katy tur, in for chuck todd, starts now. welcome to wednesday, it's "meet the press daily," i'm katy tur in new york. the president says he wants to pull the u.s. out of what he called an endless war in the middle east. and it is causing some members of his own party on capitol hill to speak out against him. we'll get to the latest between the u.s., syria and turkey in just a moment. but first, a far less literal battle he is waging, where republicans are staying almost entirely with him. and that's the trump versus the constitution battle.

once again, he isn't shying away from an all-out power struggle with congressional democrats. the white house is refusing to cooperate with the impeachment probe, daring democrats to take a vote to launch a formal inquiry and denying that congress even has a right to investigate at all. >> it's the most unfair situation people have seen. no lawyers, you can't have lawyers, you can't speak, you can't do anything. the call was a perfect call. but schiff made it up. then it turns out that the whistle-blower was in cahoots with schiff. then it turns out that the whistle-blower is a democrat, strong democrat and is working with one of my opponents. the whole thing is a scam. it's a fix. >> that was president trump just moments ago at the white house. it is a classic trumpian playbook. but when it's used by a president of the united states against a coequal branch of government, it could tee off a constitutional clash.

a letter from white house lawyers to house democrats last night said their inquiry was constituti constitutionally invalid and violates basic due process rights and the separation of powers. speaker pelosi says this is just another sign that the president believes he is above the law. and today, for the first time ever, joe biden said president trump should be impeached. >> no president in american history has ever dared to engage in such unimaginable behavior. with his words and his actions, president trump has -- himself. to preserve our constitution, our democracy, our basic integrity, he should be impeached. >> let's get the latest from my nbc news colleagues covering both parts of this story. kr kr kristen welker is at the white

house. where does this fight go from here? >> that's the big question, katy. what we have right now is an escalating standoff. the white house, as you say, releasing that letter to house speaker nancy pelosi last night, essentially saying, you need to hold a vote to officially open up an impeachment inquiry. now, what does the constitution say? the constitution says the house of representatives shall have the sole power of impeachment. so, nancy pelosi says, bottom line is, that's kay clocase clo. as you pointed out, she indicated that this type of action would be considered obstruction and could be impeachable in and of itself. i've been talking to senior administration officials who say, look, they want to force a vote because they essentially want there to be terms by which they need to adhere to this process. now, president trump was asked what would happen if they did, in fact, hold a vote, would he, in fact, cooperate with demands by house democrats? the president didn't close the door on it, but said, only if

it's fair. so, sort of left himself some wiggle room in case they do decide to hold a vote to determine that ultimately he's not comfortable with the terms. but katy, the question is, what is this going to do to the timing? is this going to essentially slow the process down? remember, house democrats wanted to have a vote by the new year on an actual impeachment. big question now about whether or not that's going to happen, or could this speed things up? could they determine to bring articles of impeachment based on obstruction of justice? we just don't know at this point. >> kristen welker, the president has a really fragile ego, it's been reported that he doesn't really want to be impeached, doesn't like the idea of that asterisk being put on his name through history. so, is he ready for that? is he ready to force a vote on impeachment? does he really want to be the third president in the united states to be impeached? >> i think you highlight the internal divide here at the white house and even within the

president's own mind. politically speaking, there are some administration officials who think that this could help him with his re-election bid, could energize his base, but you're absolutely right. this is a president who doesn't want to be associated with that asterisk. he doesn't want to become one of the presidents who was impeached. now, what they are calling for is a vote to open up officially the impeachment inquiry. house speaker nancy pelosi is saying, hey, look at the constitution, it doesn't say we have to hold a vote to do that. if you do look back at history, though, katy, the past three impeachment processes have started with a vote. so, that is the argument that the white house is making. it's really a procedural argument, though, and that's where you have these battle lines being drawn. but i think you make a really important point, katy, if you talk to allies of the president, he says bottom line, he's watching the polls go up, the support for impeaching him and even for an impeachment inquiry

rising and that's disconcerting to this president and he's concerned, frankly, about what that might do to his political prospects, despite the fact that a lot of people think it's going to energize his base. >> you might have a lock on the republican party, but kristen, as you know and our viewers know, after watching this network for many years now, the president won by a very small margin, and he doesn't have that much room for error. even losing a handful of people could be devastating for him in 2020. mike, vice president biden came out for the first time today and said the president should be impeached. talk to me about what was happening behind the scenes and whether they think the president should be removed from office if it ever came to that. >> well, it's so interesting, katy, because for the last few weeks, joe biden got in this race arguing that he was the democrat best capable of taking on donald trump. and so, a lot of democrats have been wondering, really, frankly, where's joe biden been, as the president is just relentless in attacking him, raising questions about hunter biden and his

business dealings and how it may have effected the vice president during his time in office. the answer from the biden campaign has been, well, first of all, he's been out on the west coast raising money. he's had a few public events, but really, this is not a candidate who, as you know, republicans long grappled with the question of how you take on donald trump. biden has always said he's not necessarily somebody i want to wrestle with on a daily basis. and they did see this as a moment to step out and for biden to address this issue on his terms. and biden's advisers are saying there's a lot that's changed just in the past two weeks. we've had the transcript of that conversation between president trump and the ukrainian president. we've had the whistle-blower complaint now come out. you saw the president on the south lawn of the white house calling on china to investigate biden. and then, of course, just yesterday, the white house telling capitol hill, we're not going to cooperate in any way, shape or form. so, that gave biden the opportunity today, yes, to call for impeachment, but give a speech that was about much more than that. a moment of really national emergency, as he even put it.

he said, we can't have a president who would abuse all the tools of his office just to get re-elected. he called the president's conduct un-american. this is a candidate who they always think is at his strongest when it's a question of national urgency and that's what he sought to accomplish today. >> kristen, mike, thank you very much. joining me now is gabe dibenedetti, susan delpersio and jesse moore, former speech writer in the obama white house. okay, so, the president is going off and he's been going off about this impeachment inquiry for some time, but now the white house is trying to argue that impeachment is unconstitutional, that impeachment deserves due process. jesse, what do you think? >> well, this is happening, and i think it's starting to become real for him, which is why we're seeing him start to spin out of control. it's real, it's happening, we're getting there, but what actually

worries me is how democrats are starting to have a little bit of glee, and i'm not just talking about in washington or amongst folks on this program, i'm talking about folks in barbershops, people in the neighborhoods, folks who hear impeachment and think that means we're going to lead him out of the white house in handcuffs or something. so, i do think there needles to be a little bit more temperament from democrats who can set expectations a little bit better that impeachment, or, an impeachment inquiry -- >> what should be the democrats goal here? should it be just to show the evidence against the president or should it be to remove him from office? >> that's a deep question, but i mean, at the very least, i think it is absolutely make the case completely, get to a vote in the house on impeachment. watch the senate do what it does and there's ten different macro-political reasons why the senate will likely acquit, could

have an entire discussion about that, but also set expectations and let people know that that is what's likely to happen and what we actually need to focus on is beating him in 2020. >> 2020. >> yeah. >> is nancy pelosi going to, gabe, take this to the floor and hold a vote on impeachment before getting into the inquiry? >> before getting into the inquiry, it seems unlikely, as it currently stands. she said she has no interest in that. we should point out that trump is making the case that impeachment is unconstitutional. well, impeachment is in the constitution, so -- >> it's constitutionally prescribed. >> exactly. >> there are a few members of the democratic caucus who are saying, it's not the worst idea to hold a vote, but what the democrats really don't want to do here is follow trump's lead down a procedural, you know, line of conversation here, because this is not about process, and basically, they don't want to get into an argument about whether or not this is a legitimate inquiry. what they're trying to do here is make an overall case about his lawlessness.

now, what i've heard from a lot of democratic congressmen is the fact that he sent this letter yesterday, fine. it just gives us another opportunity to talk about obstruction. but that's not the whole ball game here, we're going to keep going. >> are democrats doing a good job of holding him accountable? >> they're trying to, i think, and it was difficult, because once the news of the whistle-blower and the beginning the impeachment inquiry process came about, they went on recess, so, it's been a little disjointed the last couple of weeks, but i agree with gabe, they have to get away from this process story. their response to this letter is, impeachment's in the constitution. full stop, continue. if they don't show up for subpoenas they have language, i'm going to not get it quite right, i'm not an attorney, which basically says, if you don't show up, we're going to assume the reason you didn't is because you have bad things and you doubt want to tell us. and move on. and they have to stay on that. they do not need to take the president's bait on process.

that won't work. and if they go on and they say, we're going -- and they use professional attorneys and staff to question witnesses, because they will have some, and to almost act as the spokesperson, it either has to be nancy pelosi or nobody else, because at this point, it looks too political. and you're right -- >> so, you think no more adam chef, no more jerry nadler. >> no. they just just carry it. for adam schiff, he kind of really blew it when he tried to be too cute and offer some kind of parody. he needs to redeem himself in some ways in the public opinion eye and let nancy pelosi be the voice on this. there's no one else to hold that water and it needs to be done so the public gets one clear message. >> jesse, what do you think of that? >> well, it's -- it's worrisome to think about there being few options of people to hold that water in the national spotlight, but i think you're absolutely right. i think nancy pelosi and her

office are going to be in position to make the case and do it for several months to come. what's going to be tough is the fact that that spotlight will definitely take away from the national conversation democrats are trying to have around the election. the campaign that's going on. >> so, they can't do both at the same time? they always say they can do both at the same time. >> well, i think it's tricky. goveri inenin gov governing is tough to do. this is political, as much as the president is going to make the case, this is governing. >> people aren't surprised that trump is saying this isn't fair. if you listen to the words that nancy pelosi herself is saying, she has said to her caucus and she says to reporters every time she opens her mouth, we're focused on drug prices, trade deals. we're doing impeach nment the background and she'll answer questions, but listen, she was in seattle yesterday, appearing with a member out there, and she talked about drug pricing. this is not a house that

outwardly, at least, wants people to think they're focused on impeachment. obviously that's where a lot of the caucus is focused. that's where a lot of the 2020 conversation is focused right now, because that's what candidates feel they have to be talking about, but i think they are very conscious of this problem. they don't want impeachment in 2020 to be turned in one conversation. >> so, this is day 14. here's where the impeachment numbers stand. we'll put the poll numbers up on the screen. this is a new nbc news poll number. impeachment remove, 24%. congress should investigate, 31%, not enough evidence for an inquiry, 39%. and this is -- has a margin of error of 3 1/2. so, when you look at these numbers, is that good for the democrats? is it good for the republicans? they are moving a bit. >> it's really not good for the republicans. there's no uncertain terms. and one of the reasons in that number, you are at over 50% saying we want an inquiry.

what's happened is that donald trump in many ways has lost the argument on, is this worth looking into. the american public says yes, we want to learn more. but the peril for the democrats is that they go too far and make it look too political. >> hold on. i want to look at some other numbers. nbc news first read pointed this out. 53% of americans dils approvedie of trump. 53% don't believe the president has been honest and trustworthy when it comes to his actions regarding ukraine. 51%, the allegations against trump are serious and should be fully investigated and the combined 55% that want trump impeached or removed right now. but 53% is a number that he's been at since 2016. >> but there's one thing that's changed in that. you have to look at the independents and the movement there. that's huge. and that's what the republicans, not just the president, but anyone running for re-election -- >> does it matter who the

democrats put up if they're looking at the numbers right now against the president? >> almost two different conversations. you talk about the impeachment and where you're going to be at the end of the year, we don't know yet. so, who they're going to -- the democrats are going to put up and what environment they're going to be in, we still don't know. >> yeah, i mean, at the end of the day, the numbers you just laid out there, that were laid out this morning, show that 53% of the country, if we believe this, are going to be against him no matter what, shows that this is already a -- people are viewing this within a partisan lens, but we really should take a step back again here. if you are a sitting president entering a re-election and 53% of the country is hard against you or at least open to being hard against you, you're in terrible position and that's something that gets lost here. >> they need to move fast, the democrats? >> they do. and they also -- all of us, i think, need to look at state by state polling. because sometimes we get caught up in where the country -- >> national polls. >> national tracking polls and we forget that when jim jordan or when joni ernst looks into

dead into the camera and says, i mean, the president's joking about asking china, or, they look dead in the camera and say, we're not worried about this, they're not dumb. they're looking at the polls in their states, they're looking at the polls in their districts and that's what matters. our country's gerrymandered to a point -- >> listen, i would suggest that everybody put their earphones in after this show and listen to "the new york times daily" today because it following around congresswoman slot kin, she's in a purple district. donald trump won it, she won it in 2018, she's a democrat, and listen to what the voters in her district are telling her about what they believe the democrats are doing. it's fascinating. it's educational. i suggest you all listen. but not until after the show. gabe, susan, jesse, you're sticking around. next, it didn't take long. turkey launches its offensive on

the syrian border just days after president trump's abrupt withdrawal of troops. and it is drawing sharp criticism from some of the president's closest allies. the president's closest allieswhen to get anywhere. that's why dell technologies created unified workspace, powered by vmware. ♪ a revolutionary solution that lets you deploy, manage, support and secure all your devices from the cloud. so you can stop going in circles, and start moving forward. the way you triumph over adversity. and live your lives. that's why we redesigned humira. we wanted to make the experience better for you. now there's less pain immediately following injection. we've reduced the size of the needle and removed the citrate buffers.

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we are out of there. we've been out of there for die. we are taking some of the most dangerous isis fighters out. we're taking them out and putting them in different locations where it's secure. if the kurds don't watch, then turkey's going to watch, because they don't want those people out anymore than we do. >> welcome back. that is president trump just about an hour ago, alleging that isis prisoners are secure, despite air strikes targeting the kurdish forces guarding those prisoners. this just three days after he essentially gave president erdogan the green light for turkey's offensive, by announcing he would pull u.s. support for kurdish forces in syria. the syrian democratic forces have been a key ally for the

u.s. in the fight against isis. turkey considers them both terrorists. lawmakers on both sides of the aisle, including some of the president's staunchest supporters are denouncing the dramatic policy shift and warning of an isis resurgence. and with air strikes already under way, it is too late to reverse course. joining me now, nbc news foreign correspondent matt burt bradley. and matt, can you tell us what's happening there on the ground? >> well, the latest, katy, you mentioned that the air strikes were already happening, it's too late to reverse it, well, it's too late to stop the ground incursion that just started. we're learn iing there's now turkish forces who are streaming into syria and alongside them are syrian forces that are actually backed by the turks, you know, sunni muslims who have long enjoyed support from the turks, and they're moving in, as

well, and there's fierce fighting all along that border tonight and it's just going to get more hot as this day goes on and as the evening goes on and as the days continue. we've heard now that the number of casualties has risen from two to seven and this is according to the associated press. so, we can expect that that number will rise dramatically as the ground forces start to move in alongside what we've already seen today, the aerial artillery and heavy artillery that's been firing from turkey into northern syria and we're also getting a whiff, katy, of some of the worrying signals that everybody had been talking about before this all started, which was something like the seeds of a refugee situations. kurdish people are peeling out of that fringe between syria and turkey and headed, well, we don't know where. they could be going deeper into syria, into regime-held territory, they could be coming to northern iraq and to kurdish

iraq, where this government and where other governments around the region are going to be loathe to accept still more, hundreds of thousands of refu e refugees, a renewal of the same scourge of reewe gees we saw in 2015 that spilled all the way over into europe and upended politics there, so, it's just -- as bekeep seeing with syria, it's grownhog's day. it's just tragedy upon tragedy, the same over and over again and now we're seeing it again, but starting with that, as you mentioned, that betrayal from the white house. >> matt, i don't know if you've gotten reaction, if anybody's heard this on the ground there, but the president was asked a moment ago about isis fighters and if they escape, is he worried about it, and he said that they would escape into europe. any reaction to that, have you heard that? what is your reaction to that as a reporter who has been covering this. >> reporter: i hadn't heard that. i mean, look, there's a lot of language issues here, right? so, there was a "washington

post" editorial written yesterday by a top turkish diplomat and he said that, you know, he actually used the language that president trump wasn't green lighting it, he wasn't approving the operation, he was ceding control of the fight against isis to the turks. basically allows the turks to take the fight against isis from the syrian democratic forces, the mostly kurdish forces that have been the tip of the spear for u.s. operations against islamic state in the past several years. so, what does that look like, really? i mean, we're talking about something like al hol camp, which has tens of thousands of refugees from inside isis, isis's former caliphate. we're talking about 12,000 hardened isis fighters who are now in the custody of the kurds. how is turkey going to assume custody of those hardened fighters who are jihadis who are determined to return back a caliphate that was their dream? well, they're going to have to wrench them from the kurds cold,

dead hands. and that's going to be a very terrible fight. because we're talking about, like i said, hardened jihadis that aren't exactly going to sit by and become pawns in a great power game between the kurds and the turks. so, al hol refugee camp and all these other points where isis fighters are holed up and their fall lis, about 48,000 women and children who are also hardened idealog idealogues, they are also in northern syria and they are also ready to escape and rekoconstit. where are they going to go? are they willingly going toe go into turkish hands and be ceded from one enemy to the other? this is all a chaos that's just getting worse and worse and worse and is going to become worse and worse in the coming days. it's a maelstrom that the u.s. has simply turned its back on and is now wouking away from. >> and you cannot put the toothpaes back in the tube. thank you, matt bradley. we appreciate it. and joining me now, national

security analyst evelyn farkas, the former deputy assistant secretary of defense. and larry pfeiffer, also here. he is the director of the hayden center at george mason university and a former senior director of the white house situation room. larry also served as a chief of staff to the cia. the evelyn, i want to start with you. i just asked matt this, i think it's worst asking you again, the big concern is that these isis fighters and the families, as mat. was just describing, will escape and try to reconstitute the caliphate. the president was asked about this and he seemed to brush it off and said, well, they would escape to europe. >> yeah. i mean, katy, it's absolutely irresponsible what's happening now. the fact that we would allow this to happen, you know, the president threatened to do this last december and this is why secretary mattis quit, then secretary of defense, quit. in addition to the envoy to the region. what's going to happen is not

exactly what matt described, it's actually going to be worse, because the kurdish fighters are going to abandon their posts guarding those hardened terrorists and their kind of hardened families, as well, and they're going to go and defend their own turf, their own territory, their own people, their own towns. they're not going to care what happens with the isis fighters at that point, because they're fighting for their lives. so, the isis people will -- they will escape, we know that. and they will go where they can go, to do what they want to do, which is, essentially, to attack us in the west. we went to syria in part to fight terrorism. i was in the obama m administration when we went in. i know there's a lot of back and forth on whether we should be there, but if we're going to leave, this is not the way to do it. >> lindsey graham has been pretty outspoken about the president. he said president trump hasn't ended the war, he's created a bigger war and if you think that america can withdraw in syria in the mideast without consequence, you're making a mistake. he's basically saying the

president has turned his back, also, on the kurds and he's worried that it will be a blood bath for the kurdish forces. larry, how do you feel about this? >> you know, i find myself in violent agreement with senator lindsey graham at this point in time. we have a nato ally that is acting against the interest of nato, underscoring what evelyn just said, about these individuals returning to europe and perhaps ultimately doing harm to america and ultimately against american national interests, so, i support senator graham's efforts and hope he and others can convince the president to turn this decision back as best we can. >> larry, i'm sorry, i didn't mean to call you by the wrong name a second ago. >> that's all right. >> do you think there is -- do you think there is a way to get

in the president's ear and have him change his mind on this, or is it already too late? is there a way to mitt game sig of the con consequences going forward? >> there's potential to mitigate. we've seen it happen in the past where he has reversed course or he has softened his language, which has allowed the defense department, state department, to then begin to take actions to -- to help the situation. >> what do we do in the future, evelyn, when we need help again fighting against isis? >> well, i think it's going to be really hard, katy, to convince kurds or other forces to work with us, to help us achieve our objectives, if we are shown to be unreliable, and by the way, this is not going to be an issue just fur stateless fighters like the kurds, because you look at our allies in israel and elsewhere, israel, first and foremost, because they're close, getting nervous. you know, what kind of ally and partner is the united states

where we'll actually engage, fight and withdraw at a weird point in time that makes no sense whatsoever? you actually should be withdrawing our forces, mr. president, as part of a peace deal, as part of an agreement where we use the leverage we have from the forces we have on the ground. and by the way, you know, larry is right, this is we still have forces there nearby. we should be using our leverage to get all of the sides to the table and come up with an agreement, because there's a civil war going on. it's not just a counterterrorism issue. >> that's a good point. and i know the president doesn't want -- doesn't want to be in endless wars. he said so, he campaigned on that. his supporters voted him in, partially because they wanted him to pull american troops back. is there -- could he have negotiated a peace deal? was there a way to do this, to get american troops out of there more cleanly, one that would not put the kurdish forces at risk,

one that would not put -- or heighte heighten the risk of isis fighters escaping? >> absolutely. you know, he should be using the forces he has, you know, at his fingertips. he should be using his diplomats, he should be using the u.s. military and defense officials. we should be having a full frontal assault, not with weapons, but with words, to bring people together, bring them to the table. clearly, this administration has failed in not doing that and allows turkey to proceed as they have. >> does it put americans at risk at home? >> oh, i think ultimately, with these isis individuals potentially going free or likely going free, they're going to get themselves reorganized, they're going to redouble their efforts and their goals are not just limited to attacks in the region. the goals of isis are ultimately to hurt americans.

>> evelyn, larry thank you guys both for joins us. we appreciate. and coming up, what bernie sanders' recent heart attack could mean for his campaign and the overall shape of the race for president in 2020. race for president in 2020. still looking for a dry skin solution?

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tonight, the whistle-blower's attorney is pushing back after president trump alleged the whistle-blower is a, quote, strong democrat. nbc news correspondent ken day lain yan is with us now. what do you know? >> katy, the whistle-blower's lawyers just issued a statement, saying that their client has never worked for or advised a candidate or political party and basically spent a career working as an intelligence professional in the government. and the reason that's important

is because, you know, in his initial description of the whistle-blower, the inspector general of the intelligence community did say there was some indication of political bias in favor of a candidate and in recent days, "the washington examiner" said that involved a professional relationship with a candidate. and people jumped to conclusions, including the president of the united states, that the whistle-blower was involved in politics. if you think about it, joe biden was the vice president. perhaps this person had some interaction with the vice president, briefed the vice president. regardless, the bottom line is that the lawyers are saying this whistle-blower was not involved in politics, had no role advi advising any of the democratic candidate candidates, so, the idea that donald trump has been putting out that this whistle-blower has a political ax to grind does not appear to be the case. >> you might not be able to answer this question, but i wonder if the whistle-blower or his attorney are reconsidering or even considering whether this

person should come public and put a face and a name and a job title to the allegations that the person made. >> everything i've heard from the lawyers and others familiar with this matter is that the whistle-blower does not want to do that. the whistle-blower really wanted to maintain his status as a career government official, serving his country in the intelligence community, and, you know, coming forth into this political hot house and would be the antithesis of that. and we don't know if this person is undercover, which could make it even more complicated and really foreclose the idea of him being identified. my sense is that no, the whistle-blower doesn't want to do that, but you may have a point that we're leading to a momentum here. further details are coming out that are narrowing down the group of people and allowing people within the government to identify this person, so, it may be inevitable that their name comes out. >> and ken, i know, we were talking about this yesterday, but the democrats were trying to potentially hide the identity of

the whistle-blower from their republican colleagues. house democrats were thinking of trying to do that. has a decision been made on that? is that still potentially in the cards? do we know when the whistle-blower might speak to congress? >> my sense is that those discussions are still ongoing, but yes, there is a very real concern on the part of the democrats that the house republicans are essentially agents of donald trump and can't be trusted with this informat n information, the whistle-blower's identity. there is no similar issue, by the way, in the senate, which is also expecting to hear from the whistle-blower and investigating this matter. no concern that senator richard burr or any of the republican senators would inappropriately -- >> why is that, ken? why is that? >> it's just a much different situation. senator burr, who is not running for re-election, is trying to run a bipartisan process. he tried to do it in investigating the 2016 election and he's trying to do it now. and he has a close working relationship with the ranking democrat, mark warner, who has not been as partisan as sort of

on the attack as adam schiff on the house side has been. but it's just, you know, senators, obviously, are elected by states that are less partisan, it's a much different place, katy. >> i've been talking to an administration official, ken, that's been telling me that this idea that ukraine meddled in the election is just complete insanity. complete insanity, that this is -- basically a fever dream of the president, what he wants to happen, that it's not supported in the intelligence community. i know you have conversations with intelligence sources all the time. can you give me an idea of how they're reacting to this entire spectacle? >> yes, i mean, among the many conspiracy theories about this whole saga, this is one of the more outlandish, from everything i've been told by sourtsces. and my sources are aghast that this information, you know, that the president is clinging to this idea and sort of using the mechanisms of government to investigate it. the idea that a server that we

know was hacked by the russians, because the intelligence community told us and the fbi told us, that somehow that could be found in ukraine and potentially, you know, the ukrainians were involved and not the russians, it's just bananas, and nobody that i know in the intelligence community believes that, katy. >> ken, thank you very much. and we're going to have more "mtp daily" right after this. ghs (kickstart my heart by motley crue)) (truck honks) (wheels screeching)

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and get a notification the instant someone new joins your network... only with xfinity xfi. download the xfi app today. of the issue of the bidens with president zelensky, and -- what i can tell you is that all of our discussions internally, the president and our team and our

context in my office with ukraine, were entirely focused on the broader issues of the lack of european support and corruption. let me be very clear. the issue of aid and our efforts with regard to ukraine were from my experience, in no way connected to the very legitimate concern the american people have. about corruption that took place, about things that happened in the 2016 election. >> that was vice president mike pence in iowa moments ago. i'm back at the table with gabe, susan, and jesse. you know, pence is being very specific in his language. the president and this ukraine affair, do you think it's going to affect 2020? >> i do. and it's fascinating to hear vice president pence start to qualify what he's saying.

you heard him there say in my experience. the first time he came out, he came in hot. he came in hitching his wagon to the president in a way where it was clear he didn't want to offend the president's base in any way. now you're watching him start to qualify in my experience, so watch that. but there's absolutely going to be ramifications. >> what's interesting is when you look at the polling, biden hasn't moved at all after this. the allegations, the unfounded allegations leveled at him by the president. but his fund-raising numbers are quite low. how do you square those two things? are they looking at the numbers, at the fund-raising numbers or the polling? >> depends on who you mean by they? >> biden. >> biden is looking at both and he's not thrilled by either. it's true his numbers aren't dipping significantly and elizabeth warren's are growing significantly or at least steadily. the fund-raising, it was going to be hard for him to find more and more donors who can max out because he's relying on these in-person donations and

in-person fund-raisers. when you have these big money donors, once they give you their $2800 check, they can't do it again. it's very hard to get more people to give you $2800 checks. obviously, other people have done it in the past. they're not thrilled with the fact they were beat by three other candidates in the last quarter for fund-raising. they're not very happy right now overall. their concern isn't that they're going to be dragged down immediately. their concern is it's giving people pause about joining the biden group, and biden's numbers may be essentially steady, but they're not growing and warren's are. >> what do you think, susan? what does biden need to do? >> biden, at this point, if he wants soosee some real shift in his numbers is probably use the next debate, next week, to show that he is going toe to toe with donald trump in a way that is persuasive to democratic primary voters. >> the guy who said he would take donald trump behind a gym? >> he has to do it and look presidential and handle himself in such a way that he's really able to say it is me, folks,

because he's tried to make the argument, i'm the only one. i'm the one who can beat donald trump. now, he's got to bring it. and it's going to be very difficult for him to do that with 11 other people onstage. and people aren't going to know exactly how to deal with the situation that he's in because he's already -- biden's camp has already said they're upset with the democratic national committee for not defending him, when they're not supposed to do, but it's going to be difficult. and they have to get an online fund-raising operation. >> i keep thinking of the "snl" sketch from the past weekend, and the kamala harris character sipping on the pina colada with the sunglasses. joe biden, oh, no? we're laughing. is that how the other campaigns -- i mean, to be really negative, is that how the other campaigns may see this? let's step back and let this play out. >> the other campaigns besides joe biden's campaign, which this

is front and center, what's happening right now is elizabeth warren is surging, mostly because democrats like a movement. we like to be romanced and she's building what feels like a movement. joe biden kind of, and i'm a fan. he was a boss of mine, so i'm a big fan, but what he's struggling with is, you know, we lose with safe candidates. hillary clinton was a safe candidate. >> but has warren -- has she peaked. i think that's her bigger issue at hand, did she peak too early? >> there's no evidence she's peaked yet. and i think we really are falling into a trap of talking like this as if it's a two-candidate race. >> that's my point. plus, we're going to see a different turnout, a much bigger democratic turnout than in previous years. >> kamala, pete, beto. sanders. >> she's got another moment in her, i feel like. >> we'll watch and see what happens in the next debate. that will be all for tonight.

thank you so much for joining us here at the table. chuck will be back tomorrow with more meet the press daily and you can catch me tomorrow and every single weekday afternoon at 2:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. t "the beat" with ari melber, oh, no, ayman is in for ari. we can't have an awkward toss. >> that's something just for you guys. >> thank you very much. a.m. ayman mohyeldin. we start with donald trump's impeachment kries. a stampede of gathering facts gathered by the day, and a legal defense that appears increasingly erratic. trump was pressed on his stonewawing of congress and his refusal to comply with the subpoenas. he suggested the fight could go all the way to the supreme court. >> the whole thing is a scam. it's a fix. and we wrote a letter yesterday, and probably ends up