i don't know them. i don't know about them, i don't know what they do. i don't know, maybe they were clients of rudy. you would have to ask rudy. i just don't know. >> oh, well, "ask rudy," that was first reaction from the president to today's breaking news, denying that he knew two giuliani associates we just had up on the screen, the picture of him standing next to one of them. my thanks to raul, tim, and melanie, most of all to you for watching. that does it for hour. i'm nicole wallace. "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts now. welcome to thursday, "meet the press daily," good evening. i'm chuck todd near washington where it's been another wild day of developments where part of the impeachment inquiry is now apparently a criminal case. two of rudy giuliani's associates who were helping him dig up dirt in ukraine for president trump have been arrest

arrest arrested. federal prosecutors at rudy giuliani's old haunts, the southern district of new york, today indicted two of giuliani's associates, level parnas and igor fruman. they're two foreign-born businessmen and donors. they were charged with carrying out a campaign finance scheme that involved funneling money to trump's super pac in an effort to influence u.s./ukraine relations. moments ago, the president denied knowing either man, despite acknowledging that there may be a photo of them all together, which there is. >> i don't know those gentlemen. >> you were in pictures with them. >> that was possible i have a picture with them, because i have a picture with everybody. i have a picture with everybody here. but somebody said there may be a picture or something at a fund-raiser or somewhere. so -- but i have pictures with everybody. i have -- i don't know if there's anybody i don't have pictures with. i don't know them. i don't know about them. i don't know what they do. but i don't know. maybe they were clients of rudy. you would have to ask rudy.

i just don't know. >> and in a sequence of events -- comes right out of a movie script, it seems, parnas and fruman were arrested hours after having lunch with giuliani at dulles airport near washington after purchasing one-way tickets out of the country. the night before, parnas, was asked to testify before congress. fruman has also been asked to testify tomorrow. both men have now been subpoenaed for documents. in announcing these charges this afternoon, which comes amid an impeachment inquiry in the president and rudy giuliani's efforts to interfere in the 2020 election, the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york said this -- >> protecting the integrity of our elections and protecting our elections from unlawful foreign influence are core functions of our campaign finance laws. and as this office has made clear, we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct that draws into question the

integrity of our political process. and i want to add that this investigation is continuing. >> now, as you heard, this is an ongoing case. so, in addition to the impeachment inquiry, we now have a criminal inquiry. the big question now is, do these two investigations merge at any point? more importantly, can the attorney general, bill barr, do anything to stop that if he wanted to stop that? well, in fact, we learned today that this case was open before barr became attorney general. he was first briefed on it shortly after his confirmation, according to the justice department. there's a lot to unpack here as this impeachment inquiry, since it's been opened -- seems like every day, but we have a lot to unpack here. joining me for the latest on all of this, kristen welker is at the white house, a white house correspondent for nbc news. tom winter is in our investigative unit and joins me from new york. kristen, i want to start with

you. we just heard the president basically give a blanket denial on knowing these two gentlemen. and knowing a lot about that. but the president did make other news today about his attorney, trey gowdy, and he's bringing in a new attorney, although he just said that trey gowdy can't begin until january. what's going on? >> reporter: that's right. well, we're still sorting through this and reporting it out, chuck. i do have a little bit more information. jay sekulow says the reason for that is because there's a one-year prohibition for congressmen interfacing with other members. his prohibition expires on january 3rd. the president said it a little bit differently. he said there are lobbying rules, which i think confused some people, but that's sort of the official statement that's being sent out by jay sekulow. the question, though, is how is he going to be helpful in the president's legal team if he can't start until january 3rd. because, presumably, the impeachment inquiry thereby well underway --

>> possibly over, if you believe some of the democrats. >> possibly over at that point in time. exactly. my question is, is he going to be in an advisory role until january 23rd? it speaks to the fact that they're bracing, chuck, potentially, for this to be drawn out, to extend beyond january 3rd. and as you and i have been reporting on throughout the week, the white house sending out that letter saying, effectively, they're refusing to cooperate. so it is possible that this process gets dragged out. that they are anticipating that. and that that is why they're okay with the timeline. but certainly, you would think it would complicate his ability to beef up his legal team, chuck. >> now, today, before the president spoke about these two gentlemen that were arrested today, jay sekulow, the president's attorney put out a statement. i want to put it up, because it was an interesting way he worded it. he said, as the indictment states, neither the president nor the campaign were aware. nothing in the indictment seems to mention the president or his

campaign. i mean, as one of my producers said, it's kind of like that scene in "all the president's men" where robert redford goes, they're denying something i didn't ask them to deny. >> reporter: right. and i think it all highlights, chuck, the fact that this is very complicated and continues to be more complicated for the president and his associates. his outside attorney, rudy giuliani, and that's really at the crux of this, because we know the president was in close contact with rudy giuliani. we know that giuliani was investigating joe biden no ukraine and that these two associates were engaged in that investigation. it does speak to the level of defensiveness, that statement that you read here at the white house, and for the president's legal team. they are effectively dealing with incoming and as you point out, essentially denying something that wasn't stated in the indictment. >> also in the last hour, rick perry became the ninth administration official to be

subpoenaed either for a personal appearance or for documents, for rick perry, it was for documents, for now. is he going to be governed, essentially, by the white house rules here, where they're not cooperating, it's all based on cipollone's letter to congress? >> well, that is the expectation. i mean, president trump was just asked about this and indicated that perhaps there could be some wiggle room. but based on my conversations, that letter is dominating the strategy here at the white house. dominating how they are approaching all of these requests. they see it, as one official said, as a sham. and so it's hard to see they wouldn't put up some roadblocks. but again, president trump, and we'll have to go back to the actual transcript, seemed to leave the door open, possibly for some type of cooperation. but remember, they're expecting to hear if a key witness tomorrow, and it's still not clear what's going to happen with that, chuck. >> we're not #100% clear if

ambassador evonovich will testify yet? >> we're not 100% clear. we continue to ask and we haven't gotten a firm answer yet. and i think to some extent, they're dealing with these instances and these requests for documents and for testimony on a case-by-case basis and they seem to be responding in realtime. and it raises a lot of questions about whether they have an all-hands-on-deck strategy. >> let's move on to tom winter. let's start with the basics. lev and igor, who are these guys? they're giuliani associates, but how did they end up on the radar of the southern district of new york? >> right, chuck, if you look at this case, you have to go back to prior to all of this ukraine and the ambassador and the whistle-blower and everything we've been hearing about for the past several weeks. so basically, where these guys come from and where this fits in is this was an ongoing federal criminal investigation into money that -- and you're looking at one of them right now, into

money that they were bringing in, that according to federal prosecutors came from a foreign national. they don't identify in the court paperwork who that foreign national was. but they do say that the money came in and that it was involved in putting money into both state campaigns as well as federal campaigns, and that includes a super pac that's associated with the president. you're looking at on the right, two of the people now, lev parnas and igor fruman. and basically, chuck, when you look at this case, you're seeing what we kind of typically see in these straw donation or foreign donation cases. you're looking at somebody who was trying to move money in from abroad. somebody who was -- people that were trying to get money into this country and have it influence elections, or people that were trying to donate more than you're allowed to give and putting in fake names. he even misspelled "fruman," one time, initially misspelled his name in one of his filings to try to deceive the fec. so it's kind of a standard case.

what is not standard is one of the acts that's alleged here is that money went to a then sitting congressman, somebody that nbc news and people we've spoken with have identified as former congressman pete sessions, that pete sessions was given money and he was asked to lobby for the removal of the ukrainian ambassador, something that's the heart of the whistle-blower allegation, something you've been covering for the last several weeks. >> and did he do that? did he write a letter asking for a removal? >> yeah. according to the documents and some of the things that we've seen, i'm actually scanning through the indictment right now, that is, according to federal prosecutors, something that did occur in this case. that he was involved with some of that. so, yeah, chuck, i think when we look at it, there was no doubt what pete sessions was up to here and what he was aware of what was going on. >> so pete sessions, who by the way, is the son of a former fbi director who served in the fbi.

>> yes, william sessions. >> was appointed by reagan. was there through the entire bush xli presidency until bill clinton replaced him with louis freeh. so this congressman is the son of a former fbi director, why isn't he being charged? >> well, i think one of the things -- if you receive donations, there has to be a quid pro quo, chuck. >> is the letter the evidence of the quid pro quo or not? >> you know, chuck, i would need to go back and double czeheck t indictment papers and double check with the case here, because it's not -- you know, if you were running for office and i said, you know, chuck, i'm going to donate to your campaign, but i've got a real issue with sewers on the street that i live on here in manhattan, do you mind taking a look into that or talking to some people on the hill and see what we can do about it? it's kind of a situation where that wouldn't be a direct quid pro quo. if i said, chuck, i'm trying to build a skyscraper here in manhattan and i'm going to give

you some money and buy you a boat for your personal benefit, and then you go to work on getting me a permit to build that skyscraper, it has to be a little bit closer to that than just necessarily a donation and somebody taking a look into something or advocating for a position. >> and as we all have learned, prosecuting elected officials on campaign charges is incredibly hard to make that happen. a lot easier to go after the illegal donor in this case, igor and lev. crystal, tom, i'll let you guys go, because you have a lot more reporting to do. let me turn to a legal angle. joining me is mimi rocah, an nbc news legal analyst. so all of a sudden, a part of this investigation related to ukraine is now in a -- is now being investigated by sdny.

right now, these are separate investigation investigatio investigations. do you have a sense today of how sprawling the investigation is in sdny or is this a very narrow focus on lev and igor? >> in my experience, nothing in sdny is narrow? if the facts and the evidence take you elsewhere. one of the things that every prosecutor that i worked with there really follow the facts where they take you and it seems to me what we're seeing in this indictment is, you know, i know we use this phrase a lot, but the tip of the iceberg. and that doesn't mean that i think that, you know, donald trump is going to be implicated tomorrow, i want to be clear. i think we have to be careful about, you know, expectations here. but i do think that rudy giuliani to be worried about now. i think it's really looking at

giuliani's financial transactions with these two men. part of it is just what investigation they're doing still. and second of all, i think that there's real potential for cooperation here -- >> i was just going to ask that. is that your -- i mean, this -- is that, you think, the real goal here by mr. berman? >> i don't think cooperation is ever necessarily the only goal. you charge case that you think are worthy of charging. and the fact that they had a press conference today, i don't know how much people understand, that's not a common event. >> i was just going to say, they don't do it often, especially when they know the boss doesn't love this one, right? >> they're essentially saying, look, we think this is an important case. we think that the integrity of elections -- it's not the first time that jeff berman and the new york fbi office have done this. they did it with michael cohen, you know, they did it with epstein. they are showing that even today under the thumb of bill barr,

they are not afraid to do cases that are probably going to, you know, make trump, president trump, angry. but also, i think they are making consistent statements about the integrity of the criminal justice process as they did with epstein and the integrity of the election process. so i think having a press conference to me does not mean, hey, and by the way, we're going to cooperate and bring this really big case against rudy giuliani and other people. it means, we think this is an important case. we know this is an important issue right now. we know our elections are being interfered with by foreign governments and foreign officials as we speak. so we're going to use the criminal justice process and law enforcement, where we can. but i do think that they are absolutely going to try to get these men to cooperate. and remember, these are leverage of the southern district is much greater, frankly, than the leverage of congress.

and i think that's something that becomes interesting here. >> well, i was just going to say, these are two witnesses that the congressional inquisitors would like to speak to. i would assume the u.s. attorney says, you'll get your turn, but they're ours for now. does this actually probably slow down congress a bit? they won't get to these two gentlemen for a while? >> yes. i think the short answer is yes. i think the prosecutors are going to want to go through and see what they can do with these potential cooperators. if they choose to cooperate themselves. and frankly, i think if you look at the big picture here, that's not a bad thing, because like i said, they have a lot more leverage here than congress does. and the chances of these men getting up and lying to congress and getting away with it is a lot stronger than them lying to the southern district and getting away with it. >> so true, isn't it? it's a sad statement that you just uttered there, but it rings true, that's for sure. final question is this.

there's a lot of current and former members of congress that are lunged to these two. already, the list is building. oh, they hosted a fund-raiser for this person and apparently there's a connection here. how do you expect sdny to use the leverage of these two raising some funny money for some people. is that how they'll get cooperation from these members of congress? >> well, as you and tom were just discussing, bringing these type of charges against elected officials is much harder, but, you know, i think, look, we don't know the scope of this investigation right now. it will be very interesting to see, is this just a paper-based case? is this based on other cooperating witnesses? was there any kind of, you know, wire surveillance? i think that will, you know, and we shouldn't know that right now. but the answers to those questions, i think, will have a lot to do with where it goes next, because -- >> very quickly, mimi, do you get a sense that these two gentlemen didn't know that they were under investigation until yesterday? >> well, they weren't acting like they knew, but then they

were trying to get out of here pretty quickly, and it doesn't seem like that was just because of their congressional depositions that were scheduled. >> right. >> so, yes, i think that. >> very interesting. mimi rocah, good to talk with you. thank you for comsharing your e. much appreciated. now let's turn to sahil kapoor, ruth marcus, continen continenty. moving to a new location soon. >> you can say that i'm a fellow at ai anytime -- >> he is also a fellow at aei. >> i wear many hats, chuck. >> yes, you do. sahil, this rudy thing. on one hand, it's -- it feels like, wow, every day, there's another piece to this, so it has that sort of cascading, but every day, we don't know which is -- which one of these new events is really big. >> yeah, it's not clear this has immediate substantiative impacts on the impeachment inquiry. i was speaking to a democratic

source about this earlier, but it does add to the sense of political stench around rudy giuliani, who is already wrapped up in the ukraine matter, already part of the actions that democrats are impeaching over. so they're going to want to get answers. the president of the united states, his client, is also getting asked about this. why does he happen to be photographed with these people. giuliani is not mentioned in this indictment. the president is not mentioned in this indictment. some political implications have yet to be seen. it seems like giuliani is being looked at separately in terms if there was a connection, and if there was, these two men might want to talk about it to avoid prison time. >> that's what's got to, you would assume, scares giuliani, is the fact that these two guys might start worrying about themselves first. >> yes, but let's pull back the lens a little bit. you asked the degree to which these events today merge with the impeachment inquiry. and i think there's two points of merger. one is that we have in the indictment the allegation that this phony corporation, essentially, was set up to get $325,000 in money to the trump

super pac. it had been set up the month before. okay, so the trump super pac is not looking really closely at the sources of this money. if a corporation is set up, and has no history of giving and no history of transacting business and it's taufall of a sudden gi you $325,000, you might want to take a closer look at it. the other is the reported pete sessions intersection on behalf of getting rid of the u.s. ambassador to the ukraine. what is that all about? so president trump, the bulling back is this. president trump has been telling us that there's terrible corruption that needs to be looked at by ukraine. but his -- but it's the other side that has been charged with crimes here, in terms of illegal campaign contributions. and that be doing and the same people have been doing this weird lobbying to get rid of the sitting u.s. ambassador. that really muddies up his argument about the importance of looking at hunter biden here. >> matthew, is this a bad day for giuliani only or is this

also a bad day for the president, meaning, like, what this whole thing could end up rike? >> well, rudy is the president's lawyer lawyer, so it probably weighs more heavily on mayor giuliani than the president at this point, but it's certainly not something that president trump would want to be responding to. when i look at this scandal, it reminds me an awful lot of the abramoff scandals that i covered more than a decade ago, but the republican congress, less like watergate. and i think it's a mistake for democrats to wade too much into this complicated story, when one of the advantages of kind of fixing the impeachment effort on the zelensky call is, it fits on a chiron, people understood, pressure was brought to bear in order to open the investigation of biden. >> this is where our conversation in our editorial meeting went. on one hand, it's a new tentacle. on the other hand, it's a new tentacle. and just with that, it's like, does this become almost -- the wider the scope is, the harder it actually is -- >> can i say one quick thing.

you mention ed abramoff. i would go back to the democratic national convention scandal of 1996, when the democratic national convention had an extensive effort to solicit and kind of ignore foreign money coming into dnc coffers. foreign money in elections is not a minor issue. and it's not kind of the disgusting business of lobbying, as usual, which was abramoff plus. it is a very big problem. it's a problem that has plagued this president for quite a long time. so to have another tentacle of that is quite serious. >> and yet another tentacle is the new subpoena of energy secretary rick perry. >> by the way, we have nine of these. >> nine tentacles. >> do we have the list, guys. do we have that full screen of the nine entities already in the trump administration. there they are, right there. as you can see, mulvaney, giuliani, esper, the defense secretary, acting omb, gordon sondland, the ambassador to the eu, lev and igor, the two new

gentlemen of rudy associates, energy secretary, secretary of state. most of these are for documents. not yet for the individuals. but go ahead. >> and if democrats -- if house democrats don't get the documents they want, if they don't get the cooperation they want from these members of the administration, then expect obstruction of justice charges, expect obstruction of congress articles of impeachment. which were an issue for the nixon impeachment matter. there are constitutionalists who are not rabid partisans and take that matter very seriously. >> which brings me to the president's new lawyer. it's not hard to find clips of congressman trey gowdy having a different view of what he thinks congress' power of the executive should be. here's just a few of "best of" hits from trey gowdy. >> one party doesn't turn over documents, there's a presumption that those documents must not have been very favorable for you. that's the only thing i'm left to conclude, that there's something in these documents he doesn't want us to get. >> the notion that you can withhold information and

documents from congress, no matter whether you're the party in power or not in power is wrong! respect for the rule of law must mean something irrespective of the va sicissitudes of politica cycles. it's executive privilege. it has to mean something. it can't cover your entire administration or no one would have to turn over documents. >> we need people with firsthand knowledge to come forward. we've had some, but we need them all. >> obviously, he'll be the attorney and he's going to be on the other side of this. is this a difficult spin job for the new attorney for the president? >> i don't think. you could have played clips from epresentative cummings who is gowdy making the opposite case. this is typical, we go through this. the partisans have flipped sides. the reason it's interesting that gowdy has joined the team is i think the president is lacking spokesman on tv. >> is that what you think?

part of it is he needs to understand how congress works, too. >> well, right. he brings a lot to the table. but this president likes having his advocates on television and gowdy can be one of them. >> but what about this issue of, so, it's interesting, so there's a ban on him being able to speak to members. >> sure, you can -- i think that if i understand the ban correctly, off the top of my head, you can advise people behind the scenes, behind closed doors, totally legally about the best way to approach members and the best arguments to make and you can go out on television -- >> is this considered lobbying, though. >> yes, but the ban involves person-to-person contact. that's what's not permissible. >> so he should be able to go on tv? >> i need to argue with matthew first. he should be able to go on tv and that shouldn't be a problem. quiz him now. >> whether that's a good idea, i don't know. because i do think trey gowdy has to answer for all of those -- >> i want to argue with matthew, because it's fun to do it and because i disagree with him.

the notion that trey gowdy said this then, but other people were saying other things, i disagree with that, because if people were wrong then, they were wrong then, and that doesn't make trey gowdy right now. but more fundamentally, the obama administration or the clinton administration were not refusing wholesale to turn over documents. we're not saying these inquiries are completely unacceptable and unconstitutional and we spit at them and send you nasty letters about them. they were turning over documents, they were not turning over perhaps as many documents as were wanted. that's a big difference. >> i'll give you 15 seconds. >> i plead guilty now. >> no, there is no difference. sorry, ruth. there is no difference. >> it's true! holder resisted the efforts to subpoena the fast and furious documents for months. and i'm glad to see some of the

clips finally appearing on outlets that are not initialled by fnc, because that was a big story, it was the same thing, call executive privilege. and we now have it in this case. you're right, sip leecipollone'r is an order of magnitude higher because the stakes have that much higher. >> coming up, as president trump fights against his own impeachment, he's also fighting against his own party over syria. and if one political war is dangerous for trump, how does fighting two make it better? plus, dems' fighting word. are they? is joe biden's embrace of impeachment a sign of a new kind of campaign? campaign?you trade? i want free access to research. yep, td ameritrade's got that. free access to every platform. mhm, yeah, that too. i don't want any trade minimums. yeah, i totally agree, they don't have any of those. i want to know what i'm paying upfront. yes, absolutely. do you just say yes to everything? hm. well i say no to kale. mm.

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♪ we needed somebody to lean on ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ all we need is someone to lean on ♪ welcome back. tonight in 2020 vision, it feels like we may be entering a new stage of the presidential race with joe biden getting more aggressive against president trump and perhaps embracing a sort of more trumpian-style campaign. the former vice president is taking his toughest stand yet against president trump, saying yesterday explicitly for the first time that the president should be impeached. >> no president in american history has ever dared to engage in such unimaginable behavior. with his words and his actions, president trump has indicted himself.

to preserve our constitution, our democracy, our basic integrity, he should be impeached. >> fthe president was quick to fire back, first at a white house event. >> biden is dropping like a rock. i don't think he's going to make it. he sees what's happening to him. i guess he's no longer the front-runner. >> and then on twitter, the president called him, quote, pathetic and here's where it got more interesting. biden then reengaged with the president, responding to his tweet with one of his own, saying, thanks for watching. stop stonewalling the congress. honor your oath. respect the constitution. a one-on-one fight with trump could be biden's best strategy for the rest of the campaign at this point, but he'll have to keep it up and will probably have to engage more with reporters if this is now the strategy and if he wants it to pack a real punch. and as president trump is fighting one political war against biden, he's also fighting on two other fronts, as well. we'll have more on that, next. as well we'll have more on that, next. -e gives you the power to see every corner of your growing business.

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president trump may have plenty of republican support in his fight against impeachment, but when it comes to his withdrawal of u.s. troops from northern syria, he appears to be on his own in that fight. today republican congressman john shimkus of illinois who has already decided not to run for re-election simply said this. >> i'm heartbroken. in fact, i called my chief of staff, and said, pull my name off the "i support donald trump" list. i mean, this is just -- we have just stabbed our allies in the back. >> now, the shimkus comments come as a new fox news poll shows 51% of registered voters supporting impeachment and removal of the president. the president dismissed the fox poll on twitter using language we'd prefer not to use on this air. as "the washington post" phillip rutger and robert costa put it, instead to have enjoying uncontested gop support as he plunges into a constitutional showdown with house democrats and prepares for a bruising re-election campaign, trump is now fighting on two fronts within his party. so sahil, ruth, and matthew are back with me. matthew, let me start with, it

is striking, it's not striking to me that there is a split on foreign policy, between the conventional republican party of pre-trump era and the president. it's the harshness of the critiques. it's almost, are we to read anything -- it's almost as if, well, i can really beat him up on this, so i'm going to. so i'm not going to talk about that. >> i also think there's extreme anxiety about the situation in syria with an american retrenchment or withdrawal, and that is, there is real fear among republicans, as there should be, that isis would reconstitute itself. >> and i don't think it's just a real fear among republicans. >> and there's an additional fear this will allow iran to militarize in syria, which would be terrible for our allies in the region. it's interesting, the republicans are far more ex exorcised then they are about

the zelensky thing. >> some of his harshest critics on the syria move are people like liz cheney, lindsey graham. to them, it's a matter of national honor. you have not abandoned your allies who you have been standing by in the battle field. >> i think you're also right, chuck, i think you were suggesting there was a little bit of displacement. in other words, people who were privately appalled by the call and don't want to say that and are publicly appalled by syria may have even expressed that even more vehemently, because they need to be quiet about it other things they would prefer not to talk about >> we shared the shimkus news. here's lamar alexander today. there's this sort of split feeling on impeachment. here's lamar alexander with a voice many democrats have been curious about. here's what he wrote in a statement. it's inappropriate for the president to be talking with foreign governments about investigating his political opponents, but impeachment would be a mistake. an election, which is just around the corner, is the right way to decide who should be

president. impeachment has never removed a president, it will only divide the country further. as a potential juror, i have nothing more to say about impeachment until all the arguments are presented and all the decisions are made. that seemed to be an interesting, kind of like, stop asking me, right? what do you make of it? >> i think he's where a lot of the republicans are in the senate. and they'll wait until the households a vote and wait to hear the case, or if they believe the underlying act was inappropriate, they don't believe it rises to the level of impeachment. absent any new revelations, i don't see them changing their mip minds. >> now, lamar alexander is not running, so he doesn't have to worry about talking to voters. cory gardner is running for re-election. and let me p appropriate for the president of the united states to ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival, yes or no? >> well, look, this is what we're going to get into.

the senate intelligence committee having an investigation, a bipartisan investigation. unfortunately, though, what we've seen is a very political process take over. >> but is it -- >> i've answered your question. >> no, you didn't. >> it's a yes or no. >> is it appropriate? >> here's what we see in the house of representatives. you see a very partisan process taking place. why is it when you all do stories or we see reports in the news, it's about four states? >> but the question is, is it appropriate for a president to -- >> look, i think we are going to have an investigation -- >> -- to ask a foreign government -- >> it's a nonpartisan investigation. >> sahil? >> he dodged that five times. he made it about impeachment, he made it about politics. this is a straightforward question about something that the president of the united states said on the south lawn of the white house. it should be an easy question to answer, is it or is it not appropriate for a president to ask a foreign government to interfere and investigate a rival. >> matthew, i feel like lamar alexander gave him a road map. >> that's right. >> lamar doesn't have to worry about a primary challenge. >> well, there you go.

>> is it inappropriate -- >> but listen though what matthew just said, and that's an important thing. >> they're in a vice. these purple state senators are in a vise. the democrats understand that. and that if you even to say that the comments on the lawn or in the phone call were inappropriate, will really put your republican support at risk. >> i thought, it's very telling that cory gardner said, i do notice that it seems like there are four states that are always brought up when it comes to what do senate republicans think. it shows you where his head is at. and there must be a little club there between collins, mcsally, tillis, and gardner. like how the hell are we going to handle this? >> and i think lamar alexander did do a good job, not just choking out the inappropriate part, but also saying, and this is going to be my last comment on it. i think that is the part that those incumbent senators are going to have to figure out a way to not keep dodging this

question every single day until the election. >> it was the same question that a lot of republicans faced in 2016. do you lean in with donald trump or do you try to distance yourself? >> and you're gambling to find out. you don't know what the results are going to be. >> what's interesting is the republicans in 2016 that leaned in were the ones that emerged with the senate seats. >> on lamar zlaralexander's poi that the next election will resolve this dispute, the whole issue is that the president's actions may be tainting this election. so this that going to be a viab answer to this question when the answer is mixed up in what the president is doing. >> i want to put up full screen three, guys, before we go. full screen three is lindsey graham tweets today. because it shows you the two, basically the split personality here on the issue of ukraine versus the issue of syria. here he is on impeachment. if impeachment is designed to uphold the constitution, you are in the process of destroying it by preventing the president and his team from confronting the witnesses against him. this is an unsustainable

position. on syria, pray for our kurdish allies who have been blamelessly abandoned by the trump administration. in some ways, it's like, are we talking about the same administration? >> fact check, half right. the notion that -- no, we're not, and we're not talking about the same lindsey graham, we're not talking about the same ly lindsey graham who was a prosecutor in the clinton impeachment trial. the notion that this is the moment for extensive constitutionally mandated procedural fairness for the president is just wrong as a matter of law. >> but? i will invoke the continetti rule here, l lindsey up for re-election. >> and the graham, serial in the syria case, this is his heartfelt belief. >> it would be weird if he didn't hold this position on syria. >> that would be a sign of reversal. >> he's picking an area of conviction where he can be critical of president trump and he's overcompensating for that by being emphatically defensive of him on another issue where he

doesn't feel as strongly. >> that's what it looks like, but we'll see how this plays out. up ahead, we're on the ground in syria as turkey launches its military offensive against the curds. my colleague, richard engel, is there with the latest developments. richard engel, is there with the latest developments here's the thing about managing multiple clouds

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>> chuck, it looks like we are seeing just the early stages of this campaign. and most of the turkish military activity is focused on two villages. what the turkish forces are doing, the turkish military air force, they are attacking the towns and villages around these two large population centers, softening them up, frightening the people, hoping that the people will leave, and according to different ngos, about 65,000 people have already left, predominantly these two areas. and then, they're going in with both ground forces and watch this space. i think this is going to be a profoundly important story going forward. they are sending in arab militias. arab militias controlled by turkey. and they aren't just using them as a proxy force, they're not just using them as muscle. because, after all, turkey is a nato army. it has a huge military. it doesn't need these arab milit militias. it's sending them in there because this is part of a settlement campaign. turkey is billing this as the

syrians are going back. syrian refugees are going back to liberate their own territory, their own country, from kurdish terrorists. and that the turks are just helping them out. but these are arab who going in with plans to stay there. and the kurds say, this is nothing less than an ethnic cleansing campaign that the united states and particularly donald trump gave the green light to. chuck? >> richard engel who filed that report for us earlier tonight. and don't miss richard engel on assignment this weekend. he's going to look into what rudy giuliani and the trump administration were trying to accomplish in ukraine. don't forget to watch "on assignment" this sunday at 10:00 p.m. eastern, right after "ari melber: trump & ukraine impeachment crisis." all of this sunday evening programming 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. break, sen foreign relations committee member senator ben cardin of maryland on all of these breaking developments, including his reaction to that militia

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i like the president. he's done a lot of good things on national security, but this is the biggest blunder of his presidency. >> welcome back, there is bipartisan backlash on capitol hill over the president's decision to pull out of syria and the horror at the turkish offensive against key allies in the fight against isis. maryland democratic senator ben cardin is a member of the senate

foreign relations committee. he joins me now. senator cardin, i know you caught the tale end of richard eng engel's report. this news that essentially turkey is sending in arab militias, which is another name for mercenaries, a nato nation is basically hiring mercenaries, it -- there's only one reason he won't send in his own troops to do this. i mean, is that at all a way to raise a new alarm bell with the president? >> well, chuck, first, it's good to be with you. this is a tragic situation. this is not unexpected after the president's announcement. we know that turkey will take advantage of this opportunity to cleanse northern syria of the kurdish population. that's been his stated objective. so this is tragic. it's going to create a humanitarian crisis. it's going to dislocate a lot of people that will flee from northern syria. it will open up an opportunity for isis to reconstitute itself

in syria. all those things are likely to happen as a result of the president's decision. >> so the president is saying, hey, guess what, we'll sanction turkey. we'll ruin their economy. if they do what everybody fears that they're going to do. is it too late? >> our objective is not to sanction turkey, our objective is to stop isis, reconstituting itself in syria to devise some degree of stability in that region and ultimately to solve the syrian crisis. you don't do that by having a nato partner having free rein to deal with their issue with the kurdish population, so it's not a matter of sanctioning turkey. turkey's a nato ally. what they're doing right now is against humanity and it needs to be addressed. it needs to be addressed by the president reversing the course

and telling erdogan that the united states will not abandon our ally in the field, the kurdish fighters. >> why is turkey in nato anymore if you just described them as committing crimes against humanity? it sounds like a nato nation shouldn't be a member state if they commit humanitarian crimes like this. >> chuck, we've asked that question in our committee in a senate foreign relations committee, and i think our military experts would like to preserve this relationship. i think it's important to have a broad coalition under nato, but certainly what turkey did in regards to its relationship with russia and purchasing military equipment, what it's done in regard to the kurdish population here, there's a lot of reasons to question whether turkey is a reliable nato ally. >> there's also some questions, do you think, turk turkey's a democracy? >> at this particular moment, no, they certainly are acting

far from democratic principles. erdogan has instituted practices after the coup that has really turned turkey into country that is far from being an ideal democratic state. >> is there anything you can do in congress to reverse the president's decision? other than sanctions? >> i think we're going to try. i think what we can do is that we can take away some of the discretion of the president. we don't like to do that. we did that in regard to russia. i think there are things that we can do, but quite frankly we pay a heavy price when the president makes these impulsive decisions against the advice of our military, against the advice of our national security team, against the bipartisan advice of congress. you've got to wonder how the president made this decision. >> when is -- has your committee chair, the idaho republican jim risch, has he announced hearings yet on this? >> i have not heard him announce

any hearings. i know that we have been in touch through senator menendez, the ranking democrat on the senate foreign relations committee to request hearings in regards to not only syria but also in regards to ukraine. this developing story is in many parts of the world. the senate foreign relations committee needs to act as an oversight and accountability arm of congress in regards to the if the president's foreign policies. >> it does seem as if p there's a new tone with this foreign relations committee versus the one that was chaired by bob corker. do you sense some hesitance on holding this administration accountable on its foreign policy decisions? >> well, there's no question that senator corker was very quick to use the foreign relations committee for getting information and holding accountability hearings. it has not been that same pace under senator risch.

we do hope he'll hold the appropriate hearings. we'll be back in session on tuesday. i hope that he will announce that our committee will be conducting hearings in regards to syria, in regards to turkey, in regards to ukraine. >> let me ask you this larger philosophical question on the issue of impeachment with the election coming up, what's more ideal? where do you do this? is there an argument to be made that he needs to be investigated but you have the people vote? quick answer, where are you on it? >> chuck, well, first of all, you got to put the constitution and put your responsibilities above politics here. you really do. i think every senator, democrat, republican or every member of the house should want to get the facts out. the fact is that asking a foreign power to help us is wrong, and we have to be clear about that, but we also need to get the facts out but reserve judgment until the house has acted. >> excellent, fair point there. senator ben cardin, democrat from maryland on the foreign relations committee, thank you

for coming on, sharing your views, and thank you to everybody who watched us tonight. really appreciate you tuning in. "the beat" with my friend ari melber starts right now. we begin with a new twist, several key witnesses arrested today. these are business and political associates of rudy giuliani who were already on the radar for house democrats and are linked to not only ukraine but to giuliani's plot to shape ukraine policy for president trump, and that's not all. the feds indicting these people for among other things allegedly illegal donations to a trump pac. so right there you have a lo