i have the hunch the news might change as well around 10 pael. what if other kinds of plants captured it too? sunday night the trump ukraine if these industrial plants had technology impeachment crisis, 9:00 p.m. eastern on sunday. that captured carbon like trees i'm anchoring it and we have a we could help lower emissions. lot of great guests. and right after it richard engel carbon capture is important technology - and experts agree. has his own special called trump that's why we're working on ways to improve it. and ukraine, fact and fiction so plants... can be a little more... like plants. 10:00 p.m. eastern this sunday. don't go anywhere. ♪ "hardball" starts now. defying the white house. girl: dad! keep on watching! amazing, honey. (horn tooting) let's play hardball. ♪ who can say why your heart sighs ♪ ♪ as your love flies kraft. for the win win. good evening, i'm steve kornacki in for chris matthews. hi. defying an 11th hour bid by the white house to block her maria ramirez! appearance former u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch is still testifying mom! to congress right now after maria! nearly nine hours. she is delivering a damning maria ramirez...

account of the administration's handling of foreign policy. mcdonald's is committing 150 million dollars in tuition assistance, education, and career advising programs... yovanovitch served in ukraine for almost three years and her prof: maria ramirez mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! abrupt removal back in may was to help more employees achieve their dreams. among the earliest red flags in the trump ukraine scandal. speaking today of her firing, performance comes in lots of flavors. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) mom and dad: maria ramirez!!! you vyovanovitch said quote thee there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. would be a concerted campaign and then there's performance that against me. just leaves you feeling better as a result. she denied multiple unsubstantiated allegations that have been leveled against her that's the kind lincoln's about. calling them fictitious and she ♪ said she was, quote, incredulous that the u.s. government chose to remove an ambassador based as doctor bob, what should i take for back pain? best i can tell on unfounded and before you take anything, i recommend applying topical relievers first. false claims by people with salonpas lidocaine patch blocks pain receptors clearly questionable motives. for effective, non-addictive relief. her scathing rebuke of those who salonpas lidocaine. targeted her comes as we learn patch, roll-on or cream. the scope of the lobbying hisamitsu.

campaign that rudy giuliani waged to get her fired, an mom you've got to [ get yourself a new car.g ] effort he mounted with his two business associates, lev parnas i wish i could save faster. you're making good choices. you'll get there. ♪ and igor fruman, both of which were arrested this week. were you going to tell me about this? quote, he believed yovanovitch i know i can't afford to go. i still have this car so you can afford to go. had been an obstacle to i am so proud of you. thanks. principal. we can help you plan for that. start today at principal.com. investigate mr. biden. that said yovanovitch told congress, quote, i do not know mr. giuliani's motives for attacking me but she warned of a, quote, unfortunate alliance between ukrainians who continue to operate within a corrupt system and americans who either did not understand that corrupt system or who may have chosen for their own purposes to ignore it. for more i am joined now by congressman denny heck, a congressman from washington state who serves on the

intelligence committee and took part in today's deposition, jeff bennett, a correspondent for nbc news, greg miller, a security correspondent for "the washington post," and susan page, washington bureau chief for usa today. thanks to all of you for being here. congressman, we are talking about this hearing today you've been a part of for the past eight hours or so. so let me begin with you and ask you what you heard today from yovanovitch, from the former ambassador. does it in any way advance the case in your view for impeaching donald trump, and if so, how? >> steve, first of all, we're not talking about any of the specifics which the ambassador shared with us today, but 8 1/2 hours let me say this -- let me say three things. number one, this woman oozes integrity. number two if anyone wants to next week will be a very busy one when it comes to the bead it all on your character impeachment inquiry. and values they have to read the opening statement which she on monday fiona hill, that's shared with us and now in the president trump's former top aid public domain. it speaks eloquently to this on russia and europe, on monday woman's commitment to her she's expected to tell congress

about how the white house tried country, her patriotism and to pursue a shadow foreign dedication to her profession. policy when it came to ukraine. and finally number three, this rudy giuliani's business associate is also scheduled to nation owes ambassador yovanovitch a big, big apology give a deposition on monday. and monday is also the deadline for what happened to her. >> i know you don't want to talk about the hearing but what is for ambassador gordon sondland your sense of what happened to to turn over documents to congress which he has indicated her. she said she was fired not for cause, for the cause being that he won't do. tuesday then is the document giuliani potentially was out to deadline for rudy giuliani, vice get her. president mike pence, defense secretary mark esper and acting >> correct. >> does that -- i guess what i'm asking you beyond all possible doubt that, though, would your omd director and wednesday the case for impeachment, does that affect your view on it, does that make a stronger case in deadline to turn over documents your view? >> look, steve, fast forward a and ambassador sondland has week or ten days, after the agreed to give a joint record of the call between deposition thursday. president trump and president and friday is the deadline for zelensky came out, there were an white house acting chief of staff mick mulvaney and energy awful lot of people asking us secretary rick perry to turn what more do you need to know, what more is there to know than over documents. on top of all of that, the fourth democratic debate on this? and think about what's happened tuesday night. we're going to be here to cover in the ten days or so since the all of it. that's "hardball" for now. thank you for being with us. and all in with chris hayes

release. we had the volker texts, the indictments of rudy giuliani, starts right now. and now four national security tonight on a special edition of "all in," the ambassador officials who we have learned also was ringing the alarm bell. it seems every two to three days we learn something new that speaks. brings deeper depth frankly the form story and narrative about how former ukraine ambassador defies the white house and warns congress about the president. complex this conspiracy, if you plus. >> i haven't spoken to rudy. will, this effort, if you will, >> new clues rudy giuliani was to get ambassador himself may be in serious legal yovanovitch out of kiev for all jeopardy after his associates get busted. the wrong reasons. and then reporting on the >> jeff bennett, let me go to invention of the ukraine you. the picture being painted here conspiracy theory. what was going on potentially and richard engel, live from the inside the administration, you'll yawgiuliani not an offic front lines in syria on the deteriorating member of the administration but playing an outicized role. giuliani agitating the president to get rid of the ambassador. the president ultimately having her recalled. what is the bigger picture that's emerging here? >> and i think one way to think about this, steve, as democrats

make the public case for impeachment, the work they're doing right now is piecing together the how. how it was president trump leaned on those ukrainian leaders to in effect do his dirty work, his political bidding. that's the thesis of the argument democrats are making. and so what they heard today from ambassador yovanovitch according to the prepared statement she gave, the opening statement a colleague and i obtained, what she says is that her ouster is a direct result of the pressure that president trump put on folks at the state department. why did they do that, because the ambassador was one of the people who was concerned about the influence campaign that rudy giuliani was running. she makes the point that there is a standard operating procedure to elevate american interests abroad but that rudy giuliani wasn't doing that. he was operating in his own personal interests and at the behest of president trump. and working with those now two indicted associates. and so that's the point she makes. and she says very clearly at one

point she met with the number two person at the state department and that person told her, you've done nothing wrong but take the next flight home. you've lost the confidence of president trump. and then from there she does a top to bottom rebuke. this is according to her opening statement. top to bottom rebuke of the pompeo state department that she now says is -- all these pressures, political pressures put on otherwise apolitical career folks. and she describes a hollowing out of the state department that is dangerous and doesn't work at all in america's interests. >> last week president trump confirmed he'd been hearing, quote, very bad things about her. >> why did you recall the u.s. ambassador to ukraine? was she a problem? >> i heard very bad things about her. and i don't know if i recalled her or somebody recalled her but i heard very, very bad things about her for a long period of time.

not good. >> so grant, what we're learning today from her statement, from what she's saying about rudy giuliani and hissert of campaign there to get her out, when trump says he heard very bad things, are we to assume he heard that from rudy giuliani? >> yeah, i think that's obvious. he's hearing things from rudy giuliani, and rudy giuliani is a conduit for things that he is hearing from officials or former officials in ukraine who are not pleased with the ambassador's position trying to fight corruption in that country. i mean, trump not only says he heard bad things about her, but if you go back to the rough transcript of his call with the leader of ukraine, he tells the president of ukraine that bad things are going to happen to this ambassador. i mean, this is just a -- this all fits together, right? people who are not onboard with this effort to get political dirt from ukraine are moved out

of the way or are marginalized. >> susan page, we mentioned at the top as well she appeared today despite the administration essentially trying to tell her not to. she defied the administration and appeared anyway. what do you make of that? >> you know, i'm sure we will find out later what she's saying in this extraordinary hearing. i think it's still going on 9 hours later. but the fact her appearance before the committee is as important as whatever she tells them. because she is as you say defying the administration. the administration has tried to keep witnesses from testifying before various congressional oversight committees. once she was subpoenaed she said she would comply with the subpoena. we have another example next week, the eu ambassador who's a trump appointee saying he will testify before the committees. that is a powerful statement on her part. and, by the way, a brave thing for her to do, really puts at hi risk her lifetime career.

>> congressman, let me ask you about that. do you think the significance of that, the white house saying don't show up, and she shows up anyway, does that portend some of the things your witnesses, other committees. >> first we had one whistleblower and then two whistleblowers and the inspector general also committing an act of bravery coming forward. and then we have the four national security officials who have now indicated they were ringing the alarm bell. there are cracks in the walls and the walls are closing in on the president. >> well, in her testimony today as well ambassador yovanovitch defended career foreign officers. she said this, quote, today we see the state department attacked and hollowed out from

within. state department leadership needs to take action now to defend this institution. she warned harm will come when private interests circumvent professional diplomats for their own gain. "the washington post" reported a senior advisory to the secretary of state mike pompeo, that's michael mckinley, the senior advisor, quote, resigned his position over dissatisfaction and plummeting morale within the state department. according to a person familiar with the situation mckinley was disappointed for his lack of support with diplomats named. and it comes as the secretary refuses to answer questions about yovanovitch's removal. >> did you do enough to defend the ambassador privately and publicly against this smear campaign that was being waged against her, and will you speak to that now? >> ma'am, you have some of your facts wrong. >> did you support ambassador -- the ambassador being recalled months before her tenure was up?

>> i supported every mission that the state department has been engaged in and will continue to do that. >> greg, ambassador yovanovitch said when she was recalled it wasn't pompeo who did it, it was one of his deputies. what do you make of pompeo and his role in this? >> i mean this is -- i think that pompeo we are learning more, he was on the call. that took him two weeks to admit he was on the call that trump had with zelensky. he won't answer questions about when he was in poland, whether he met with rudy giuliani. he can't really point to any evidence that he stood up for this ambassador in ukraine. it's no wonder that that department appears to be really rattled and morale is really plunging there. if you look at the other chess pieces that moved around under his leadership, you move out ambassador yovanovitch and in comes a millionaire donor to the

trump campaign to seize control of that relationship to ukraine, ambassador sondland who's supposed to testify next week. i mean, these are all moves designed to meet the president's sort of political objective, not america's foreign policy objectives. >> i'm curious what you're hearing from the white house. the administration didn't want this testimony to happen today. it happened anyway. were they surprised by what came out? were they shocked this happened? were they bracing for it in some way? what's been the reaction inside the administration? >> as to whether or not the ambassador would show up, and it was an open question apparently to some white house officials, too, who learned of her arrival just as we were, when she showed up on the house side of the u.s. capitol here. the white house put out some talking points that they again mistakenlyicides to democratic offices. and so we were able to read them. and i'll tell you a lot of the talking points all spoke to process. why it is adam schiff they say

would bring up the ambassador here without a state department counsel. nothing that the white house has said really has spoken to the underlying argument, and that's that the president, so goes the democratic argument, you know, risked the national security and undermined the election -- the integrity of our elections by inviting foreign interference into an election. you don't see any sort of rebuttal in the talking points the white house put out today, steve. >> susan, i'm curious, too, the politics of this when we keep wondering reaction from the president's own party, from republicans. obviously there was the initial revelation of the call itself, the transcript that came out. now you're at a point where you've got details like this giuliani coming in from the former ambassador. are republicans -- do they feel that they were ready for this? do they feel surprised, caught off-guard by this? is this changing the equation at

all when it comes to their reaction? >> i think they feel they're getting very little guidance from the white house about what a unified response should be. you see a lot of republicans on capitol hill mostly trying to jump in to the bushes when they see a reporter approaching with a question. you may have seen yesterday's clips with cory gardener, the republican senator from colorado, seven times dodging the question whether this would be proper behavior for the president. you don't see many republicans criticizing the president. mitt romney would be the prime example of the exception to that rule. but you also don't see them saying, hey, the president -- they either say the president did nothing wrong addressing the substance of the complaint or it's outrageous to think the president would do something like that. of course you don't hear that kind of defense. i think they are still sticking by and large with the president, but you see a lot of nervousness among republicans especially republicans who represent swing states and swing districts, have

suburban voters, those college educated voters who are most dismayed pie what they see with the president. >> congressman, you heard from yovanovitch today. what is next? >> we're going to hopefully talk to number of other people. we have tentatively scheduled fiona hill who was at the national security council. the earlier conversation is important to broaden a little bit. not only is ambassador yovanovitch asserting has the state department been hollowed out and that great institution that has served america's national security interests and diplomatic interests for so long is being compromised and degraded, but think about what he did over the weekend by turning his back on the kurds and frankly unlocking and opening the door for turkey to invade syria and attack the kurds. in the future our allies are going to look at us and say how can we trust you? you are either acting in your

own political self-interests, not the interest of your nation and your values, or we can't trust your word because you're going to change it on a whim as the president did last weekend. these things matter. this is not just a matter of the scandal of the president clearly having violated the law that says he cannot solicit aid from a foreign nation but our institutions are being damaged and our relations are being damaged. that's why this is so very important. >> congressman denny heck again who was in that hearing today with the former ambassador. jeff bennett, greg miller, susan page, thank you all for being with us as well. and coming up, the next big witness in the impeachment inquiry, you just heard about it a minute ago set to testify on monday. president trump's former top aide on russia and europe expected to tell congress about a shadow ukraine agenda inside the white house with policies that reportedly setoff alarm bells among national security officials. plus animated, agitated and profane. president trump goes to minneapolis and hits his rival

joe biden with a flurry of low blows. >> hunter, you're a loser. and your father was never considered smart. he was never considered a good senator. he was only a good vice president because he understood how to kiss barack obama's ass. plus which republican senators might be swayed to vote to convict if there is an impeachment trial? we've got much more to get to. stay with us. we've got much more to get to. stay with us motor? nope. not motor? it's pronounced "motaur."

for those who were born to ride, there's progressive. for those who were born to ride, performance comes in lots of flavors. ♪ (dramatic orchestra) there's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪

that's why xfinity mobile lets you design your own data. you can share 1, 3, or 10 gigs of data between lines, mix in lines of unlimited, and switch it up at any time. all with millions of secure wifi hotspots and the best lte everywhere else. it's a different kind of wireless network, designed to save you money. switch and save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. plus, get $250 back when you buy an eligible phone. that's simple. easy. awesome.

call, click, or visit a store today. welcome back to "hardball." following today's testimony from former u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch another key player is expected to testify on monday. and that is the president's former top aide on russia and europe, fiona hill.

and sources tell nbc news hill plans to give a stunning account of how the white house tried to pursue a shadow foreign policy on ukraine. according to a former senior white house official her appearance, quote, has stoked fear from people close to the president given her central role overseeing russia and ukraine policy throughout her time working for the administration. she is expected to tell lawmakers how the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani, and the ambassador to the european union gordon sondland, quote, surcomvented the national security counsel in a normal white house process on alleged ukraine issues. that has raised policy concerns about diplomatic and security officials including then national security advisor john bolton. "the washington post" reports bolton went ukraine's new president where sondland blurted out there were, quote, investigations that were droppe

again referring to those that involved former vice president joe biden and his son hunter. for more i'm joined by ned price and david frum, senior editor at the atlantic. thanks to both of you. ned, let me start with you. this idea of a shadow policy, a shadow foreign policy i think folks have a pretty good sense what that means just based on what they're hearing from yovanovitch's testimony today. but take us through whether it's what she's saying about rudy giuliani and what he was doing in her situation or about potentially gordon sondland, the u.s. ambassador to the eu. what role should they have? people like that, people with those portfolios when it comes to setting u.s. policy with ukraine in. >> i think we can talk distinctly about rudy giuliani and gordon sondland. obviously rudy giuliani is a private citizen and shouldn't have any role when it comes to private policy. gordon sondland is still the u.s. ambassador to the e urgs.

of course ukraine is not a member of the eu so it's curious he was involved in this in the first place. there's a lot that differentiates our men and women of the state department from the likes of rudy giuliani and his now indicted business partners who were part of this as well. integrity, principle, intelligence to some extent. but there's something very specific in this case. our state department professionals, our career professionals have sworn an oath. an oath to protect and defend the constitution. and that's what they're there to do day in and day out. they are public servants in every sense of both words. they are serving the public. of course when rudy giuliani goes out to do his own bidding, he's not doing the bidding of the united states. he's not doing the bidding that is in order to advance our national interests and said -- and he said this quite explicitly. he said i'm out there to fulfill only my client's wishes. these are the personal prerogatives of donald trump that are coming into conflict

with what's in our best national interest. and it seems with this shadow foreign policy every time those two collided donald trump and those around him to include mr. jo giuliani prioritize what would in the end help president trump's political ends even if it was to our national development. >> the fact yovanovitch testifying her today even though the white house telling her not to, and does it seem that people who previously had been unwilling to are starting to talk and what's the significance of that? >> the relatively decent people inside the trump administration and fiona hill would top that list, made a kind of devil's bargain. if i am here at least i can do some good, and that's a very

laudable impulse or a somewhat laudable impulse but it connects you to a web of moral compromise. he had to make a series of pretty ugly compromises in order to get weapons to the ukraine that they needed and congress voted. i think as the failure of that approach has become clear a lot of people who held their tongues in an effort to do good at the price of some bad are deciding the price of bad is just too high. it was a shady foreign policy. this is not about organizational charts, not about the president's spending, sending a personal envoy on the back of the regular governmental apratting. sometimes that's a good idea, sometimes not. this was an extortion. this was an attempt to use the power of the united states for the personal financial advantage of people around the president, for the personal political advantage of the president himself. the problem is that it's not the

proper channel. the problem is it's not the proper person. >> the bar has certainly been raised on fiona hill's testimony based on what's been reported right now. how important is her testimony going to be? >> well, her testimony is important. i think it's also important to emphasize she was actually on the way out july 25th. but that's also sort of the point, steve. we tend to think of this as singularly focused on that 30-minute phone call between those two individuals. and i think what we've learned over the past couple of weeks is that it's much broader than that. it's not just that 30-minute phone call and "the washington post" reporting from last night i think hammered it home. this was a conspiracy that was developing and advancing and mushrooming in many ways over the course not of 30 minutes but over the course of weeks and even months. in fact, "the washington post" reported last night during fiona hill's tenure in may, officials within the national security

council first began to grow alarmed at the dismissal of ambassador yovanovitch. they watched in growing concern as rudy giuliani traipsed around ukraine and publicly bragged about his efforts to dig up dirt on vice president biden's son. and this of course culminated in the july 25th phone call. but you also mentioned previously the meeting in early july in which gordon sondland raised this issue of reopening investigations that hadn't been closed that actually led john bolton to go ballistic. i don't think fiona hill will be able to shed a whole lot of light on that particular phone call, but she will be able to add color and context to what was happening in the weeks and even months that preceded that call that raised alarm bells even deep within the trump white house. >> rudy giuliani obviously at the strof this trump ukraine controversy is coming under more scrutiny following yesterday's arrest of his two business

associates. the two have been charged in a scheme to make illegal political donations to influence donations with ukraine and reportedly helped giuliani pursue allegations against joe and hunter biden on the president's behalf. a video of the trio enjoying themselves at the president's d.c. hotel last year has now surfaced. take a look. >> you and rudy, congratulations. >> i love that picture. i can't wait to come back. >> see you in ukraine soon. >> david, i hear a lot of people asking how loyal trump might be to rudy giuliani, but let's turn the question around. how loyal do you think rudy ultimately is to trump? >> rudy will not be very loyal to trump, but he is beholden to trump. there is a kind of -- they each have secrets on each other. if they split this fiction of what is going on here is an attorney client relationship, there's no meaningful sense of the word in which that is true. donald trump has not retained

rudy giuliani. what rudy giuliani does is not exactly the practice of law. but there is the legal privilege. if they split, that begins to unfray -- begins to fray. it is striking and here's what is coming next. if you go low the list of how often donald trump has said something people go i know everything about it. donald trump will tell you i know everything about it meaning he knows nothing about it. when there's a guilty secret and he's done something wrong, he'd had them frequently at mar-a-lago. he was up to his eyeballs in promoting their schemes in ukraine. when donald trump tells you i don't know somebody, watch out. and just today he said he did not know for sure whether rudy giuliani was his lawyer or not. that is the sound of the bus being revved up to be thrown under. >> david frum, ned price, thank you both for joining us. and president trump said last

week he's confident if the house votes to impeach him, he'll go to the senate. >> the republicans have been very unified, this is the greatest witch hunt in the history of our country. >> but politico reports behind the scenes republicans in trump's informal circle of advisories are expressing concern over whether the president can truly count on a gop led senate to keep him in office. so which republicans could potentially be in play when it comes to impeachment? i'm going to head to the big board and try to break down that question. you're watching "hardball." bret question you're watching "hardball. ear os in an accident. usaa took care of her car rental, and getting her car towed. all i had to take care of was making sure that my daughter was ok. if i met another veteran, and they were with another insurance company, i would tell them, you need to join usaa because they have better rates, and better service. we're the gomez family... we're the rivera family... we're the kirby family,

and we are usaa members for life. get your auto insurance quote today. announcer: fidelity is redefining value with zero account fees for brokerage accounts. and zero minimums to open an account. at fidelity those zeros really add up. ♪ maybe i'll win ♪ saved by zero ♪

applebee's new pasta and grill combos. choose from up to 12 combinations starting at $9.99. this melting pot of impacted species. everywhere is going to get touched by climate change. so, you bought those "good enough" paper towels? [daughter laughs] not such a bargain. there's only one quicker picker upper. bounty, the quicker picker upper.

it's how we care for our cancer patients- like job. when he was diagnosed with cancer, his team at ctca created a personalized care plan to treat his cancer and side effects. so job could continue to work and stay strong for his family. this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal. we love you, daddy. good night. i love you guys. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now.

do you think it was appropriate for the president to solicit help from a foreign leader to research potential political foe? >> again, what i'm concerned is about how there were decisions made about moving forward. >> you see a very partisan process in place. >> do you think it's appropriate that the president asked a hostile foreign power -- >> let's talk about business today. >> i'm asking you if it's roept for a president to ask a foreign power to investigate his domestic political rival, yes or no? >> i would say that i don't know we have that information in front of us. >> well, welcome back to "hardball," by the way and that tells you something about the politics at the heart of this impeachment inquiry.

look, there has been an assumption going into this, hey, if the democrats control the house, have the votes there, keep their people in line they could impeach trump in the house. but you kick it over to the senate, the republican controlled senate and surely republicans who do not want to offend donald trump's supporters will stay in line and will keep the president in office. but you heard it right there, the question at the heart of this impeachment inquiry, the question at the heart potentially of any vote to impeach and then remove trump from office. republican senators don't want to answer it and it certainly raises the question are you sure -- are we all sure republicans in the senate would automatically fall in line when it comes to a senate trial? there are 53 republicans. it's going to take 67 votes if there's going to be a successful bid to remove trump from office. that means you're going to need not just some 47 democrats, and it's not a bid all 47 democrats

would be onboard. we've broken republican senators into three groups basically. it's not a comprehensive list butsert of three types of republican senator you might want to keep an eye on. because if there's going to be movement it will probably be one of these three types. these are the republican senators in the most danger of losing re-election next year. you saw mcsally, cory gardener. running for re-election next year in a state lost, colorado, in 2016. collins up in maine that was a clinton state in 2016. tillis, certainly a close state. they have to worry about general election implications here depending on how the politics play out. the flip side for them, though, they also have to worry potentially about primary challenges if they break with trump. so how do they balance that?

but obviously these four come to mind. and then there's this group. paul kaine at "the washington post" wrote about this. you might think of these are sort of more elder statesmen types within the senate who don't have the worry about facing the voters again because lamar alexander not running for re-election next year, johnny izicson retiring at the end of this year. richard burr he's up in the year 2022 but he said that's it, i'm out in 2022. they're more institutionallist generally and there's this wild card group here. romney has been the most outspoken. being in utah insulates him because utah very rare among republican states. republican voters in utah very cool towards president trump. you don't see that in basically any other state but you do in utah. murkowski, look, she lost her republican primary back in 2010, ran as a write-in candidate with

so she's probably safer from some of those political implications we've talked about. rob portman, he's expressed some concerns with the president's behavior. and ben sasse, early on a fierce trump critic. he's picking his shots right now but someone you want to keep an eye on as well. again, there'd have to be about be impeachment and removal. but we started this process saying no way is that going to happen. are you absolutely sure of that? we'll see. up next, so much for minnesota nice. a fired up president trump held his first rally since the start of the impeachment inquiry last night in minneapolis. nancy pelosi, the media and fbi were among the targets. but the heaviest blows aimed against biden. you're watching "hardball." ains.

you're watching "hardball. (burke) at farmers insurance, we've seen almost everything, so we know how to cover almost anything. (bert) even an accident brought to you by the number one! (count) i know i left it in here somewhere...ah ha! my monocle. ah, that's one. one lens! ah, ah, ah! [thunder crashing] oo! my mower! hm, well thatone chore i can cross off my list! ah, ah, ah! (burke) seen it, covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. (bert) mmm. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ you should be mad at tech that makes things worse. but you're not, because you have e*trade whose tech makes life easier by automatically adding technical patterns on charts and helping you understand what they mean. don't get mad, get e*trade. and i...was... take shocked.test. right away, called my mom, called my sisters.

i'm from cameroon, congo, and...the bantu people. i had ivory coast, and ghana...togo. i was grateful... i just felt more connected...to who i am. new features. greater details. richer stories. get your dna kit today at ancestry.com. this melting pot of impacted species. everywhere is going to get touched by climate change. (engines rev) the only thing better than horsepower... ...is more horsepower. (engines rev) if we were for everyone, we'd be for no one. with dodge power dollars, more power means more cash allowance. purchase now and get $10 per horsepower.

that's $7,970 on the srt challenger hellcat redeye.

welcome back to "hardball." last night in minneapolis president trump held his first campaign rally since the launch of the formal impeachment inquiry. for more than 90 minutes he unleashed a torrent of profanny laced personal attacks and unsubstantiated claims about his favorite targets including the media, fbi, democrats and house speaker nancy pelosi who he called, quote, really stupid. the president's most vicious and dubious attacks were aimed at former vice president joe biden and his son, hunter. >> let's do another t-shirt. where's hunter? where is he? hunter, you're a loser. and your father was never considered smart. he was never considered a good senator. he was only a good vice

president because he understood how to kiss barack obama's ass. >> and the president told his supporters that democrats are trying to erase their voice by what he called the ukraine hoax. >> they know they can't win the 2020 election, so they're pursuing the insane impeachment witch hunt. the democrats' brazen attempt to overthrow our government will produce a backlash at the ballot box, the likes of which they have never, ever seen before in the history of this country. these are bad people. my phone call as an example with the president of ukraine was perfect. democrats are on a usacrusade t destroy our democracy. we will never let it happen. we will defeat them.

>> the president is trying to convert the impeachment threat into a re-election argument, but he'll have to stem the turning tide of public opinion first. that is coming up next. you're watching "hardball." firt that is coming up next you're watching "hardball. we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

this melting pot of impacted species. everywhere is going to get touched by climate change.

woman 1: i had no symptoms of hepatitis c. man 1: mine... man 1: ...caused liver damage. vo: epclusa treats all main types of chronic hep c. vo: whatever your type, ask your doctor if epclusa is your kind of cure. woman 2: i had the common type. man 2: mine was rare. vo: epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate. man 3: i just found out about my hepatitis c. woman 3: i knew for years.

vo: epclusa is only one pill, once a day, taken with or without food for 12 weeks. vo: before starting epclusa, your doctor will test if you have had hepatitis b, which may flare up, and could cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. vo: tell your doctor if you have had hepatitis b, other liver or kidney problems, hiv, or other medical conditions... vo: ...and all medicines you take, including herbal supplements. vo: taking amiodarone with epclusa may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. vo: common side effects include headache and tiredness. vo: ask your doctor today, if epclusa is your kind of cure. the democratic con-artists and scammers are getting desperate. 13 months, they've got to move fast because they're not beating us at the polls and they know it

despite the phony polls that you see all the time. polls are no different than crooked writers. they're crooked polls. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was president trump last night in minneapolis despite a fox poll this week showing a majority of voters, 51% in their poll say they want trump impeached and removed from office. the president made the argument that it democrats are pursuing impeachment because they can't win in 2020. yesterday a key republican senator cited the upcoming election in urging caution on impeachment. in a statement retiring tennessee senator lamar alexander said, quote, it's inappropriate for the president to be talking with foreign governments about investigate his political opponents but impeachment would be a mistake. an election which is just around the corner is the right way to decide who should be president. impeachment has never removed a president. it will only divide the country further.

i'm joined by charlie sykes. thank you both for being with us. charlie, let me start with you. that lamar alexander statement yesterday caught my attention pause it seems to me we have all these republican senators who have been unwilling to give an answer to that question, should the president even be having that kind of phone collin the first place? there's alexander saying what i sense a lot of them on some level want to say, it wasn't appropriate but then coming up a rationale on why impeachment is too far. he says because the election is next year. do you sense this is going to become the argument republicans will want to trend to? >> that seems to be a safe place and the contrast with watching cory gardener flail around with this is how afraid of those tweets is he that he can't say what lamar alexander said except apparently the dynamic right now within the republican party is

you cannot break with the president at all on this issue. you can't even say that the conduct he's engaging enis inappropriate. so that is interesting. look, but in terms of the election and impeachment you know this better than anybody that up until this week the president has seen his -- his poll numbers have seemed impervious to the news cycle and you feel maybe that's changing right now. and the last week has been an exercise in self-impeachment. so i do wonder whether senators like lamar alexander and i think your analysis of the senate was kplae exactly right. they're sitting there saying do we want four more years of this? do we really want another half decade of this? and i think this impeachment process is going to have voters asking themselves whether they can take another four or five years of donald trump. >> i wonder folks in the white house, his supporters in

general, how do they feel? how confident do they feel about keeping republicans in line, about the polls staying i say where they are and not getting any worse for them. i imagine this is going to be a different story if they even move five more points let's say. how confident are they they can keep all those republicans in line? >> i do feel they are confident but they're probably a little less confident than they were as a couple more people come out and talking. you've got to remember they have all these republicans that are worried about facing primary opponents. they're worried about not having the president, both the apparatus of the rnc and the president's support for their re-election. you've got to remember last week or these last few days we've seen while the polls are dipping a little bit and republican support is still pretty high, it's 80% or so, so that's still a lot of republicans that are supporting him. you've seen record breaking

fund-raising numbers. so all of those things feel very strong to them and republicans would have to be without that if they decided to cross him. >> and i want to put this up, too, because this is interesting. the numbers really have moved when it comes to impeachment. there's been some republicans, independents who have moved on this as well. look at this, president trump's approval rating, the average approval rating if you went back to the start of the year, it was a 43% average approval rating. and if you look now it's 43%. and this has been the story of his presidency from day one until now, by any historical standard he's not had great numbers. but when you look at the approval rating you do start to ask how much has really changed. >> something is changing and it is this coalescing of all the people who have been disillusioned with donald trump but also exhausted by trump. but anita is exactly right. the numbers to look at are the republican numbers, the

fund-raising numbers. it's hard for me to imagine any republican running for re-election daring to break with the president because even if they're running behind the democrat, they cannot risk alieniating the base. so the senators you need to look at i think are the old guard senators. i and i throw one other senator into the mix. i would keep a close eye on lamar alexander. but watch somebody like mike lee from utah. if you had a principle constitutionalle constitutionallist watching the numbers but saying as a matter of principle we need to hold the president accountable, i think you start to see a critical mass of people saying we don't need to go along with this. and at some point some republicans say do we want to go with trump, what's wrong with a mike pence, niki haley ticket? >> paul cain at "the washington post" did put that possibility out there.

everybody thinks the republicans up next year in blue states or in near blue states, but it may come from somewhere else in the senate. thank youyou're watching "hardb.