>> that's a wrap for me this hour. i look forward to seeing you at noon with weekends with alex witt. stay tuned for "up." >> as of last check, rudy giuliani is still the president's personal attorney. giuliani confirming that after president trump made it seem like maybe he isn't. overnight, the new york times stating that he is being investigated. looking at efforts to undermine the ambassador to ukraine. she fielded questions from lawmakers about that for nine hours on friday. house democrats are doubling

down. nancy pelosi and is doubling down. the acting head of the department of homeland security is out. the agency has had four secretaries in three years. up with us, he cover congress for politico. and he was an assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. done call way is a democratic strategist and ceo of pine street strategies. with us jeff mason, a white house reporter for reuters. the week has gone from bad to worse. the u.s. attorney's office is looking into giuliani's dealings in ukraine. president trump seemed to be distancing himself from his personal attorney and his most

out spoken defender. >> well i don't know. i haven't spoken to rudy. he's a very good attorney and has been my attorney, sure. >> hours after damaging testimony from the former u.s. ambassador to the ukraine, yovanovitch pointed to false claims by people with questionable motives referring to two of rudy giuliani's associates. president trump claims he does not know who they are. adding to an impeachment inquiry that is snow balling but nancy pelosi wants to keep it focused. focused on the president's phone call with his ukrainian counter

pot. he admonished the president for being a potty mouth. hours later, he lashed out to democrats. >> they know they can't win an election day. they are pursuing an illegal, invalid and unconstitutional bull s----impeachment. >> a few days ago, rudy 1996 would have indicted rudy 2019 in a new york minute. the office that he held is now hounding this association. >> absolutely. this would be a new york 30 seconds. >> the hobs act, which is an extortion holding back the aid. you've got the campaign

violence. rudy giuliani was having lunch with him. what did he know, when did he know it? was he involved in bribery? campaign violations? what else was he doing that on interfeerning with policy he has no right to stick his nose into. >> done, i'm going to go to you on this. you look at rudy giuliani. he's not a registered lobbyist. it seems so apparent to me that this influence industry has involved him that seems like lobbying to me. what does it tell you about where we are? >> let's be clear, rudy giuliani has engaged in lobbying. we don't know if it is covered

under the foreign agent representing agent. you have a lot of lobbyists that represent pretty much every country in the world. you have to note every contact you have. rudy giuliani may get out of that stuff because he would argue that he's representing the president and not a foreign agent. he's clearly intertwined with these ukrainian guys every step of the way. to engage with the ukraine is to engage with russia. the president and his people know the block is hot so to speak, shout out to lil wanyne. with the public television actor, public figure as president is the puppet of

putin. to deal with ukraine is to effectively deal with russia. >> let me ask you about what we didn't see but what we know of the temperature given behind closed doors. this was emotional testimony, detailed testimony about her time in that position, the reasons she was given for why she was removed. help me understand the significance of that. we now know she was subpoenaed the night before to show up. she did show up. >> it is critical. it is so great she was able to give her testimony. the state testimony has effectively blocked from testifying. it is interesting to see rudy giuliani get the michael cohen treatment. it is safe to say, the president's personal lawyer, you

couldn't make this up if you wanted to. the scandal, the crimes. if you are innocent you have nothing to hide. why is there so much cover up? >> we see how it could be widened to involve rudy giuliani. they didn't testify. what did she have to say on that phone call about that, about keeping focus on the prospect for this turkish gold trader? >> right before the recess, a lot of the moderate and swing democrats were concerned they didn't have a message to bring back. that was super important to them. i went to town halls last saturday. he held six town halls in one day. i did learn a lot about

impeachment and how it is playing. the congressman flipped red to blue and one held by republicans for 45 years. he has been leaning very, very hard into impeach since june. he was arguing that essentially, the only way you build public support is for the very top leadership to be advocating for this. they really failed to sustain any case of the impeachment. we are seeing them approaching the 60s since nancy pelosi wrapped her arms around this. this theory that he claims vindication on. until and unless there is prove the democratic party is behind this, that is how you get the

message and can sort of stave off those political concerns ahead of 2020. >> wouk alk us through what the white house is doing. the degree to which the white house is responding and the president is responding. walk us through the reaction there on capitol hill and what we've seen in the southern district? >> starting off, it took a while until we really had a sense of what the white house strategy was on impeachment. sitting in one of the offices i had been in, they said, we don't need a strategy, this is like any other crisis the white house has faced. then we got the letter that went to nancy pelosi. that crystallized the matter

which was not to cooperate and to stone wall. there seemed to be a little cringe in the armor when that former ambassador testified. there is ambiguity about the strategy for the white house. i think we'll see going forward, an effort by the president and the people around him not to cooperate with the democrats. but to paint it as illegitimate, illegal and unconstitutional. to see the president doing with giuliani what he has done with other associates, that is to distance himself. >> let me ask you what you observed from those performances last night and the night before.

i'm sure this was language you've heard on past audio tapes but not in the public forum. this is clearly what he's trying to do to get ahead. what did you notice from those two events? >> i think it is president trump in hits element. giving him what he needs. that is the adulation of the crowd. he is a performer. particularly when he uses profanity, to what extent might affect those people in his base in the evangelical area and a

lot of things that they have objected to. that may not go over well for those afraid their children are watching. it doesn't affect his word choices at the podium. >> we'll be back with more. president trump is calling it a witch hunt. turkey continues its push into northern syria. six months after he started, kevin mcaleenan is out. what or who forced him to leave. zyrtec muddle no more.

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>> another staffing shake up in the white house. we learned about it on twitter like we often do. the acting homeland security secretary resigned. he was not forced out. the president says he will announce a new acting secretary next week. he worked along that position in i.c.e. under the direction of president obama. a quote in that piece before all of this, he said i think it will be a liability if he's not

around. what does it mean now that fourth secretary in three years has left that position? >> it is interesting to me. kevin is a con sue mat profession mat. he accomplished everything the administration wanted. he pushed out an aggressive portfolio. he implemented this remain in mexico where he forced asylum seekers into mexico while waiting the proceedings. he wanted to keep dhs as a nonpartis nonpartisan agency. i'm not sure who is coming in next. it is concerning to lose a guy like kevin who is a real

professional. >> to that point, there is a history between the house speaker and ken. he ran the conservative delegate so long even folks like mitch mcconnell who were viewed as not conservative enough. i don't know if mcconnell would take the simple step of advancing him through committee. it is not a tenable position right now for the white house. the president, if he's smart, probably doesn't want another one of these brutal confirmation battles. >> going back to something john said and that piece in the post on october 1, the comment that 2k3w09 him in hot water, he said i don't have control over the

tone, the face of the department in an increasingly polarizing time. that is uncomfortable as an accountable figure. >> i think any time anybody has an acting or temporary position steps down is because of the inhumane policies. there used to be a time when american immigration policy was all built around and stip lated around keeping families together. we are talking about migrants being shot in the leg or having alligators at the border even when christine neilson headed this department, i wondered what is the breaking point? pregnant women being denied care? i hope -- there is no policy. it comes down to dehumanizing

and degrading people who are fleeing violence. >> i want to toss to you and get your sense of that as well. this is a young agency, how damaged has this become because of that? how does it move past this being shaped by this administration? >> i think there is tremendous damage. every agent of the dhs tries to keep it law enforcement, nonpartisan. they have the border security portfolios. you've got to keep the focus. kevin understood this. it makes it more effective for the operators to do their job. >> that is the crux of the dispute between kevin and the white house. had nothing to do with his

policies. i worry that it will make it that much harder for those people and for i.c.e. it alienates local law enforcement to cooperate with them. it is pretty devastating. >> reading in a book, so much has to do with coming into a job like that. having to naf date a department, understanding who does what. fs a huge staff. he'll be on the show tomorrow, we'll talk to him about it. coming into this office, the fourth in three years. a thing you are responsible for can go off the rails quickly. >> the leadership is important. this is the case across a lot of departments within the trump administration. particularly dhs. four in three years. every leader has their own

style. this disconnect and then you have career people who are there every day, 30 years. you probably don't know their names. they are just trying to do their job. the tenor changes based upon the directive and the tone that leader sets. of course all coming from the white house, he decides to emphasize or focus on one thing or another, it created mass chie os and key ates performance. >> no stability. >> thank you so much for your time this saturday morning. turning to news overnight that the u.s. and china have reached a partial agreement suspends the tariff hike slated

to go into effect next week and purchased by china are not completely ironed out. expected to be ironed out over the next several weeks or months. some sticking points are intellectual property rules, exiting u.s. tariffs on $36 billion of chinese exports. importanting out a lot of the motivations go unaddressed in the first part of the deal allowanced. >> millions of refugees being leveraged as a bargaining chip.

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>> politicians on both sides of the aisle condemned the president's decision to pull troops from syria. a warning of dire consequences. turkey attacked territories. real concerns about the resurgence of isis.

reports several isis agents have escaped. a pentagon official told news week that shelling was so heavy that they considered firing back in self-defense. the white house has threatened serious consequences if turkey were to continue to target. no move has been made towards sanctions. secretary said on friday, quote, we can shut down the turk irk economy, if we need to. >> going to our correspondent who has done a ton of work covering isis. >> i go back to what was a warning about a real nightmare, i'll really little bit. president trump has opened the door to what could become a genuine nightmare for the united states and allies. the revive al of the deadly terrorist organization that

called itself the islamic state. what do we know about these prisons? >> we know there was an attempted jail break yesterday by a number of prisoners. five isis members were able to get away before they were able to secure the prison again. the prisons are where hardened isis members, fighters, male members are being held. we know the u.s. has removed two of the prisoners held in this jail. these are the so-called beetles who held james foaly and other western hostages. other dangerous members remain there. including a man called mow ham i had khalifa who is the most dangerous narrator in the group. another camp holding idps,

refugees, many are women and children who are relatives of isis members. i'm speaking with people who are in contact with the detained relevant tents in the camp. very few guards overwhelmed by the number of people in the camp. there have been almost daily occasions of violence where the women inside have tried to violently react to the guards. there is a concern that as the kurds move more and more resources, these facilities holding on to isis fighters and relatives might come undone and might break. >> if only we could see this coming. you hear what the administration says. oh, it's 50 meters.

the symbolism was hugely informative here. it didn't have to be this way, he wrote. >> that is a huge understatement. as a political analyst, i don't even know what to say about this. talk about real-life implications. this is really good reason about why we need to be loyal to our allies. donald trump is really ruining and destroying foreign policy and who we partner with on the ground. american foreign policy has always been built a little on hypocrisy. when do you remember an american president directly benefitting. this isn't a quote from me, donald trump said it himself. he said i have a little conflict of interest in turkey.

i have a major, major building in turkey. it is called trump towers. >> i believe the reaction to this was fierce and fast. lindsay graham saying this is the greatest blunder of the trump presidency so for. >> maybe things would be different. what happens as a result of this? we go back to this phone call nancy pelosi had yesterday. >> the first thing, they announced that the house foreign affairs committee will issue bipartisan condemnation of what the president did. i see it as an inconsistency of american foreign policy. you see the lindsay graham wing

and the rand paul wing which have been at odds with each other. the president throws each of them different bones. you saw lindsey graham called this the greatest blunder. on friday, the pentagon announced we are sending a few thousand troops to saudi arabia. you contrast that with the president saying i campaigned on ending endless wars. you are sending people to saudi arabia, which might be for a noble cause to help them defend themselves. this shows that the president's mindset on everything is driven by the green, the money. he views saudi arabia as a very

important indicator. certain defense industries benefit from this. it is a real glaring consistency i've seen throughout the entire administration. >> i'm curious, i'd love your thoughts on how well president erdogan unders and the quantity of refugees he's all been threatened to unloose or unleash on europe. he's really capitalizing on the fear that could come from this. >> these refugees are threatened to being used as an human shield in the conflict. he does not play fair. trump administration has thrown him the biggest bone ever, which is the green light to invade the

area. still threatening to do this with the refugees and as you mentioned, there was a worrying incident where turkish artillery came within hundreds of meters of a u.s. position in northern syria. a position that turkey very much knew existed. they still fired at u.s. forces. >> thank you, joining us frtoda. >> impeachment today. his father backed previous investigations. that is next. that is next (clapping) (sound of can hitting bag and bowl) (clapping) always there in crunch time.

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>> after having read, reread, sifted and tested this mass of information which came before us, i've come to the conclusion that richard m. nixon has beyond a reasonable doubt committed impeachab impeachable offenses which in my judgement are of the magnitude should be removed from office. that was the late congressman.

now some 45 years later, the congressman's son larry hogan says he backs the impeachment of this president. >> we do need an inquiry. i'm not ready to say i support impeachment but i do think we have to have an inquiry. i'm very concerned about can we have a fair and objective one. >> you do think we need to have an inquiry? >> i don't see any other way to get to the facts. >> the house fulfilled the responsibility by reviewing evidence and concluded the facts warranted three articles of impeachment against nixon, obstruction, abuse of power and congress. the same thould be issued

against trump in our views constitution the standard of high crimes and misdemeanors. 17 signatures to that oped. this is one of them. walk us through this. we are laying out the historical parallels here. >> as yogi bara said, it is deja vu all over. we have abuse of power that came out in spades where this deal with ukraine where trump is trying to get dirt on biden and his john and holding back aid. there is all kinds of criminal violations there. that was the tipping point. very similar to what happened

seven days before to six days before. it was clear richard nixon was directing them to call over to do the investigation. that tipped a lot of the republican senators and congressmen. you've got the same thing again with the stone walling and not providing information. the big difference here is that we have a bureaucracy in place that is affected by these whistleblowers. people who are career cia or others have stepped forward and been pretty credible and backed up already by the taped transcript. that was something i found investigating abuse of power in watergate. nen the old obstruction of

justice. clearly here, the obstruction of the house committee. of the mueller investigation, the witness tampering with respect to manafort. that was really serious. if manafort had cooperated. you'd have direct evidence related to the use of this polling data created by the gru members in st. petersburg who were using it to sup press the clinton vote. if you just focus on ukraine, it is a pretty damming case. >> don call woway, you heard mo about this. nancy pelosi talked about, let's not worry about the senate. i want to get some perspective from you on the focus on this

point. how possible is it for them not to focus on this. larry hogan coming out for impeachment inquiry doesn't excitement. >> moderate republicans. >> that doesn't move the needle. but i think pelosi has to pursue this regardless of what the gnat might do. it is her job to explain to the american people that the republican senate has failed in light of these specific facts. i do want to agree when she says she wants to limit to inquiry call. let's not focus on the aggressiveness and the quid pro

quo. >> it is not like it is off the charts. >> that's right. you've got to pull the ukrainian thread. if in fact, the ambassador stepped down or was asked to leave because she was standing in the way of people with financial interest, you've got to veinvest that. >> it is even worse, you've got some russian in there with over $100 hilton. they've got to get to the bottom of that. >> all russian. >> the last thing, move quickly. don't be slowed down by the tactics from the white house or capitol hill. are you seeing evidence that is happening? >> i hope so. i really hope so. i feel like this is wois than watergate. there is so much evidence.

trump himself and also china. the democrats have a lot to lose but we as a country have a lot to lose. it is beyond things being partisan, it is patriotism. >> this is worse than watergate. it is watergate on steroids. you had situations where nixon used the south vietnamees president. really bad here. after all of this comes out. after the mueller report, after this discussion. he says i wouldn't mind welcoming foreign interference and then backs off of that. he does that. he got his hand caught in the cookie jar. that is enough to impeach. >> thank you. a lot of lawyers working in

google docs. >> tomorrow, we'll be here with pete dominic and also joined by princeton university professor. that is tomorrow at 8:00 eastern on msnbc. up next, we are fact checking the president and his speech. profanities and all. >> we are going to defeat socialism and put a man on the face of the moon. to look at me now, you don't see psoriasis.

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i can rent this? for that price? absolutely. what is this, some kind of fairy tale? it's just right! book your just right rental at thrifty.com. oh! baby bear! welcome back. what the president had to say last night in lake charles, louisiana. he auch makes statements that are easily disprovable. not true. listen to this about a current phone call. >> there was nothing wrong with that call. nobody thought i'd release the call. probably nobody thought we had a transcript. >> the white house has not released audio of call. the memo about the call reelised by white house cautioned a mem dam is not a verbatim transcript

of a discussion. he also launched this attack on the democrats. >> democrats also continue to encourage foreign interference in our elections. >> also that not true. it was president trump who invited ukraine, china and russia to interfere in u.s. elections. there was also this head scratcher from the president. >> are we going to defeat socialism and put a man on the face of the moon. >> truly incredible as he channelled kennedy at rice i guess some decades ago. someone should tell the president the u.s. has put a man on the moon 50 years aegs. next hour, rudy giuliani has been under scrutiny by house democrats for his role in the ukraine scandal. he could be entangle nd a separate criminal probe in new york. tangle nd a separate criminal probe in new york

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i used to think she love d the country because she wouldn't be doing if if she did. she hates the country. >> that is president trump at a rally last night in louisiana talking about a woman who's been in congress for more than three tech cads. been the speaker of the house two times.

whose mother was an immigrant. whose dad was a mayor and congressman. talking about nancy pelosi. making those comments after speak er pelosi convened a critical conference called to update aur her caucus on the impeachment inquiry. she drew important distinctions b about what impeachment and elections are for and criticized the president for becoming in herty mouth, warning children are listening. here's more from last night's speech in louisiana. >> the radical democrats policies are crazy, the politicses are corrupt, their candidates are terrible and they know they can't win an election day so they're pursuing an illegal invalid and unconstitutional [ bleep ] impeachment. >> on that call with her democrat colleagues, nancy pelosi hammered home the

rationale for impeachment, quote, i have said before truch is not worthy of impeachment, but our constitution is worth it, our democracy is worth it and our republic, if we can save it, the worth it. up with me this morning is ben rhodes, an msnbc contributor. someone hofs on the call with nancy pelosi yesterday. adriana, laura from "the new york times" editorial board, rena shaw and with us from washington this morning is eli, a white house report rer for the los angeles times. let me try here a little bit. summarize if you can what the messaging is here house leadership. i don't know how explicitly you can or want to talk about that phone call but, there were two big questions i had. one was how does leadership respond from these calls from republicans saying have a vote on this. have a vote, let's quiet these criticisms. should it be centered on ukraine

or open to all the news items. >> what did they say in what did you hear on the call? >> i'm not going to divulge any insights, but clearly this is like someone that's being investigated asking the investigator to have a role in the rules of the game or you you're going to be. like going to a da saying wait a minute, you're goiinvestigating? you should do it this way. obviously not. the constitution is very clear. we're going to go ahead, complete this investigation. i think that it's moving ahead rapidly and i think the american people are going to be satisfied and when we have the facts, we'll issue a report on the senate to the judiciary committee. >> would you vote on it tomorrow if she did bring it up? >> you were out early. >> i was out early, but i want to take a look at the details and testimonies.

i know that yesterday there was a full day of testimony and i want to see what was said before i cast my vote. but serply, we don't have to cast a vote before we do this. no person being investigated, no suspect goes ahead and tells the investigate or this is the way u should do it. >> absolutely not. >> eli, let's get your reaction to that and have you comment on what we've seen over these last two nights. we've seen the president doing a one man show with a lot of role-playing and impersonations. he seems different to me. wilder, obsessed by this in way he hasn't been before. your reaction to what we saw here at those two events? >> hard the really gauge what is really sort of crazier rhetoric from a president who's rhetoric has always been cranked up to 11. certainly this is agitating him. what you've seen the last couple of nights in minnesota and louisiana was the fog machine

cranked up as high as it will go. really sort accusing democrats of all the things that he stands accused of. and that evidence is sort of mounting in terms of the democrats trying to prove their case and it also comes as the president's efforts to stone wall the investigation in the house as he attempts to mislead. those defenses that he has put up are taking on some cracks given that the courts have upheld congress' right to subpoena his financial records, given that in spite of the state department at the president's direction, telling ambassadors not to go before congress. yesterday, we saw the former crew yan ambassador testify nine hours. they had to subpoena her, but she went and made a very strong case according to the lawmakers who were in that room and also you had the eu ambassador who was blocked on tuesday say that next week, he will come forward and testify. so you're seeing the president's

pressure campaign against law make ers and people who might have information against whistle blowers e you're seeing that meet a will the of resilot of resistance. i think that's something that waying heavieighs heavily on t t president's mind as the democrats try to unravel the campaign that he and rudy giuliani waged in ukraine and certainly the arrest of giuliani's two associates this week plays into that. >> mauer ra, get us up to speed on this in what's been an exhausting week with so much. these popped up in "the new york times" this morning. southern district of new york vesting rudy giuliani for the role he played. involved in getting that ak ambassador from ukraine brought back to the united states. when you have a president incapable of saying whether rudy giuliani is his personal attorney, he was hedging on the white house lawn yesterday. >> well this issing connected to the story that happened earlier this week in which two giuliani associates were arrested on their way to the airport.

>> in the lufthanza lounge nlg. >> it's easy to get caught up in the details and a little bit confused by it, but the general question is whether rudy giuliani broke our laws that prohibit foreign influence in our domestic politics. by seeking relationships in ukraine. and by benefitting personally from doing so and by help iing e president benefit politically in doing so. and so listen, that is a criminal investigation, so we'll just have v to let that play out. but it's very clear that the former mayor of new york was palling around with some very shady company and was not doing it at the behest of the united states, but actually was very interesting because he was asked about this and he told "the new york times" that he, that rudy giuliani told t"the new york times" that he was working on

behalf of president trump. well, are you working on behalf of united states? on behalf of donald trump the mog mogul? who exactly are you working for and who's the president working for? >> pick it up from there. so much of what you worked on in the past was tailoring that kind of messaging. you have a guy who i think it's safe to say has gone rogue. he's garyless. he talks to whoever has a camera in front of him. here now we see the pearls of that a. >> this doesn't happen. this is not how it works we hear career mast er yesterday. been in government for decades who was fired from her job as ambassador because she wouldn't r participate in an illegal scheme to psh pressure the president of that country to investigate the political opponents of the president of the united states. that doesn't happen. that is an astonishing abuse of

power and corruption of our foreign policy. using taxpayer money. hundreds of millions of dollars in bad ly needed stance for ukraine as leverage. using career officials of the u.s. government whose salaries are paid by you and me. not by donald trump, to help donald trump's political campaign. it doesn't get clearer than that. and now trump wants to do say everybody does it. everybody's corrupt. no. this has never been done. i'm not familiar of this ever being done in american history. right. and he can stand thereupon and say they're corrupt and they do this and everybody does this. people just need to keep stepping back and say no, it is not common to have people like rudy giuliani running around interfere ng the affairs of other countries and american foreign policy to help the president commit crimes. >> congressman, i get back to my question about the breadth of this inquiry. just curious about the report of the drl investigation, in materials of indictments we saw. these were two men who were supposed to be on capitol hill testifying and didn't show up.

is that all you need? >> it was some week. this further mounts credibility to to argument of abuse of power. and obstruction of congress. because there's a massive campaign coming from the white house and the state department to tell people not to come and testify. yesterday, we had testimony from a very credible witness for eight hours. so i'm looking forward to looking at the details of that testimony. see how it's connected to the full picture, which obviously with the arrest this week, i mean he had a bad week. not just with the arrest. but this the couin the courts w to tuesday. >> maria, you talk b about there being a stone wall. you're seeing chinks. she was subpoenaed thursday night, didn't show up.

now you have sondland who's going to be on capitol hill going against the state department to do so. what does that indicate to you about who's calling the shots and the trajectory of this? seems like the the insistence by pompeo doesn't come to pass. >> we're going to see some brave actors stepping up more and more. perhaps that will have an effect on members of congress. i was very clear with some long time republican electives that i'm on the train for impeachment after the ukraine transcript. you have to be clear with this american electorate that wants to click r for trump again. this is not normal and right. when i see the word favor in black and white, that should trouble us. our president is not a king. but republican members push back on me and say i wouldn't do it this way, but this is his way and he has an end goal. we have to trust it. that's what i hear from mike pence.

from mccarthy and it seems much of the republican caucus wants that. the part that doesn't want that, they're the young ones just hoping he gets impeached, but they don't have the moral perch to step up and say anything because they want to get re-elected. >> on the word favor, the president was rolled by president erdogan and so we're talking about favoring the context of this president with the president of ukraine, but to your point, yes, this isn't normal across administrations, but we're getter a better sense of the perceived normalcy of it. >> this is a transactional guy, who was in new york real estate and everything seems to be personalized. i think one way to step back and think about this, the conduct of american foreign policy is is usually rooted in the national interest of the united states. not the personal interest of the president. what we saw with ukraine was president trump saying hey, i need a the

president of turkey calling trump and herbessentially sayin hey, i need a favor. i need to clear out these quds and trump who wants to wash his hands of this says sure and look at whpd. you've got tens of thousand os displaced people. isis break out of prisens because donald trump did a favor for a fellow authoritarian leader. we're seeing what it looks like when the foreign policy of the united states is not root nd a national interest. it's just rooted in the prerogae president. >> and back to the call. you've got a bipartisan resolution comeing back condemning what's happening here. >> that's correct and i sit in the foreign affairs committee so this was another sort of like quid pro quo kind of relationship that he has with this guy. this guy that came through washington and his security officers beat up on people couple of years ago.

and so this is the kind of relationships that he likes to encourage. i think it's all connected the to russia and putin and we're going to have this resolution coming up this weekend. >> i was going ask you congressman, in all of this, in the background, you can't help but think about the ways in which this really benefits putin and i'm wondering if you know, the investigation has been widened to examine the role of russia in these ukrainian affairs. >> you know, the russia, the mueller report and the investigation on russia's involvement in the election was ptrump trump investigation. this is about perspective. next year, using the tools of government to go ahead and impact the results of next year's election. this is far worse than what may have happened with the campaign.

this is about using the tools of f government, the state department. the agencies. your personal lawyer or quasi state department person. >> am babassador. >> so yes, i think it's got putin sprinkled all over it. >> yeah i think one of the underlying themes here that's a little depressing to me is just the violation of public service. and a lack of understanding. among the american people in general. of what public servants really do. >> with conservatives who i speak to the level of what about they do, when i approach them with what about this, bidens, hillary. come on. we're still doing this in 2019. >> but just this sense that even local governments across the country, there are people who republicans, democrats, independents, who take the service to the people they serve extremely seriously. everybody from a mayor to a congressman to frankly a

sanitation worker could take their service seriously. that's not about partisan politics and that's been violated here in a grand scale. >> and trump is exploiting a la lack of understanding about how it's supposed to work. >> and about what happens in the coming week, i'm curious about the leg the white house has to stand on here. we saw the letter to general congress saying he doesn't have to comply here and lawyer, legal scholars saying it wasn't a legal document, it was a political one. so we have talked about will talk about the messaging from the white house, but what about that? the underpinning arguments they're making about participating in this inquiry. >> there was a political document. nothing legal about it except that it was written by a a lawyer and b dibted to the public to appear as if it had some basis in the law. these are just the president's political arguments put down on paper. i think that's all they have at this point. there's a lot of concern inside

the west wing of the president's inner circle. everybody i talked to about the president's inability in this case to stymie this investigation. if people, ambassadors, who are still employed by the state department are making the calculation, whether it's out of self-protection, whether they feel compelled to make it out of historical record. even though the state department and my lawyer rs telling s are e not to do this, to be b on the record and tell the truth, that is dangerous. because this president and the facts here are not on this side. the president's own transcript confirms the whistle blblower's report. the facts simple and as much the president's trying to prevent them from coming out, the democrats are going to have a compelling case and i think you're already seeing that in term s of public opinion polling moving in favor of impeachment. that is a really dangerous thing

for this white house because ultimately, they understand this to be a political matter, not a a legal matter. they were right about the way they defended themselves from the mueller veinvestigation. ultimately, it workeded, but in this case, the politics, if the politics move, they don't really have a plan. you know for republicans who are already trying to avoid reporters. who are already looking foolish trying not to answer the question of whether or not it's okay for a president to ask a foreign country for interference, if they get frustrated and see public opinion moving in the wrong direction, that's when things get dicesy for this president. >> eli stoke is joining us with washington, making the journey south to join us here at 30 rock this morning. thanks to you as well. still to come, as house democrats move quickly, the president has try ied to counterpunch just as rapidly. the president or a more coordinated effort from within the white house, but first, the president's lawyer now under scrutiny himself.

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rudy giuliani is reportedly under federal investigation his work with ukraine. just this week, two ukraine associates with giuliani were arrested over their efforts to

influence u.s. politics. the two men were said to have made contributions to pete session' campaign in an effort to get a ukraine ambassador removed from her post. a move supported by rudy giuliani. the arrest would only complicate the impeachment inquiry into president trump. as we were discussing. dan, back to you firstly and don our last hour made the frick and frack joke. you've got the two guys, the video of them at the trump international hotel. this is a rag tag bunch. what's fascinating about it is what they were trying to do at once. ken saying these were gas price who wore two hats. they were trying to enrich themselves all the while working with rudy giuliani, carrying out faux state craft, trying to get this ambassador out of the position she was in with pete sessions. what does it say to you about, you touched on this, the

attitude of this administration toward foreign policy. what does it teach us as we look at foreign policy under president trump? >> so, one way for people to think about this is what we're looking at the corruption. right. and as saying before, the u.s. ambassador would be there and be thinking only about you know, how do we help get russia out of eastern crukraine, get assistan for these people. that's the basic work of american foreign policy. then let's break down what trump has been with giuliani's doing. he's trying to use u.s. foreign policy to get the ukrainian government to do whatever is in his political interest. rudy giuliani is just trying to make a buck off of u.s. foreign policy. like this is the cord. there's a lot of money that washes around ewe yan yan politics. it has been dirty for many ye s years. largely because of russia. so the way in which russia tried to control ukraine for a long time was through money. so they have all these operators

here. all these so-called oligarchs there. some are billionaires. some are operatives and these people essentially are move iin around money to purchase their own influence. to advance their own interests. you have a lot of americans have tried to profit off that. paul manafort has been convicted for trying to get his hands on all this money, doing these people favors. so rudy giuliani now is like i have access to the president of the united states. i'd like to make a buck off that so i'm going to help these men steer political contributions, which are illegal, to u.s. members of congress. i'd like to have them pay me a retainer because i'm close to the president of the united states. at the same time, the president ant wants to get this ambassador out because she won't investigate joe biden. so you've got trump try iing to corrupt foreign policy service political interests and giuliani trying to help him do that, trying to make a buck off the

side. >> you've talked about the peculiarity of this administration. there's another story about a turkish gold trader in the oval office bill barr and tirlson trying make the case for a prisoner swap. how out of the norm would bit for the president's attorney to be in the oval office? fly, not even a fly, but somebody walking around the wing assist ng those meetings. >> it is astonishing. so if this case was raised with us by erdogan. can you help us out. and we said wait a second, we don't get involved in legal cases, no way. and for people to step back here, this is one who is accused of iran sanctions violations, so at the same time president trump is congratulating himself or putting sanctions on iran, taking a guy who is accused of violating those sanctions and trying help get him off as a

favor for rudy giuliani becauhes client and he stands to make a buck buc off it? once again, he's not putting u.s. interests first. he's putting his own personal interests and his associate's first! you've covered the giuliani administration. what do you think as you watch him? i see a guy who's been clearly falling under, but you listen to him talk when he goes on tv and you can make one of these bill bue bulletin boards. then he has to claim of plausible ability and part of me wants to think he doesn't really know what's going on. yes, he understands the criminality of it, but his engagement of these issues seems so surface. >> it's obviously a remarkable story only if you've worked in tabloids would you really believe this because truth is always stranger than fiction. but really you have one of the neigh's former top lachrm officials who has potentially

transformed into a criminal himself. and someone who once ran for president. who once ran my opinion the great city in the country. in the world. in the world. right. who now is essentially selling out the american people to make a buck as you said. i have to say i know that people are overwhelmed by everything going on in washington. i understand there's fatigue has set in. but i would just urge anyone to whoa has five to ten minutes to read this seven page what was it whistleblower complaint from last month. it really, whoever wrote that, was a r very good writer, lays out in plain spoken english and detail what is exactly at stake. not to be dramatic here, but when i read that, i got very emotional because it made me think about how the people who are supposed to be b serving this country have literally just gone out to sell us to the high

est -- sack rificed something o someone for this country and i have veterans in my family and friends and you just think how dare they essentially. so that really goes to the heart of what this story is. >> and then come frg thing from the top as we heard the president saying they're paying us the right -- >> right. >> coming up here, new impeachment polling is is in. the sentiment is shifting. more on what americans have to say of potential impeachment of the president. to say of potential impeamechnt of the president. ♪

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new polls indicate a majority of americans approve of the impeachment inquiry. the marist poll surveys by the "washington post" and fox new, but nuance is important here. how that question is phrased differs from poll to poll and there is some confusion about how to process all these data. this is being called an internet impeachment when there's more real time feedback and data during impeachments past. as philip bump writes in the post, the current push is tricky there aren't enough to compare

it to. rena let me turn to you first. as you u talk to lawmakers in washington, how much attention to they pay to these polls? there's so much feedback and if you were a politician on the fence, maybe came over, there's the possibility that you could be watching in real there's time to see how opinion has shifted. do you sense that's the case and how important is it to take a step back from that? how valuable is that? >> it's not this valuable to these folks. thai starting to pay attention, but okay, a little over half but what's it really mean because the polls were really never right and if you, and that's the post 2016 symptom for a lot of us. so there's a sense that look, let trump be trump and we have heard that phrase over and over but that's what i hear from conservatives is that he's got something in mind. the deep state won't let him do it. we can't obstruct. i hear this regularly. where you say you actually really still believe this. so we see a return to the 2016

pr ball playbook. trump had these successes. does he deserve to be impeached? he's try iing to root out corruption around the world. they think he's doing something noble. and still will vote for him. because they don't believe he's done anything wrong. it's the wild, wild west now that trump is there. he's doing it with the light on. they say to me, obama, clintons, they all did it with the light off. we don't know what they did. trump's at least doing it in daylight. there's a sense that almost he's doing nothing wrong and so the o nieha ous is on democrats. a call to action for our viewers. share information on what impeachment is because there's a lot of the electorate that doesn't understand what it is and i think we as a public need to really, those of us around this table, but we need to educate the public again on what

this process really is by the constitution because the average american isn't paying attention. >> ben there was this astonishing moment this week where a fox news poll came out and we got the president's response on twitter. don't know who their pollster is. that pollster sucks, paraphrasing here. the attorney general comes up to new york to meet with the head of fox news, so who knows what's happened. >> all of this, whatever. any way, i want to ask you just about what they says about his attitude toward data. you make a good point that 20 was a learning experience. this is a president who has tasked out on the veracity of numbers over and over again. there are numbers he likes to hit on. he's more than happy to question the integrity of numbers when it suits him. i think that here's what concerns me. he likes to turn this into a big show. we have the rally. he is just destroy iing people'

confidence in their government. you know first of all, we talk about how it's just projection. so he's caught being corrupt. committing crime. he stands up say they commit a crime. he knows he can't drive up his poll numbers. his goal is to tear down warren, joe biden, whatever it is, to his level. >> or have his son do it. >> here's so dangerous about this. he's trashing the u.s. government. the fbi. the state department. the -- it matters that you know, we watch a tape, it's chilling. he's e vis rating public servants and people are cheering like it's a rock concert or something. david, this is october 2019. where on earth are we going to be in october of 2020? what is this man going to be saying about his opponent? what kind of hate is he boigoino be stirring up in huge swaths of

the american population. and i really think it's a question for every one of those republican members of congress or all these cheerleaders on fox, this is a dark road we are going down. playing people against each other. using really hateful rhetoric about other american, right? attacking people's confidence in the government that president trump is supposed to lead. right? and so the numbers, he won't like them and what is does he do when he doesn't like something? he just attacks and i worry b about the damage it's going to have to our social cohesion as we see rally after rally like that. >> i don't want it to be at one of those rallies, one of the saddest moments was when he talked about refugees. >> a community that's done wonderful work welcoming refugees and enriched by them and he's ripped that apart. >> proudly proclaiming he's got it down 85%. when we return, president trump is running offense on his

own on trats, trying to discredit them. a look at where the white house's strategy comes from. up next. >> democrats are a crusade to destroy our democracy. that's what's happening. r democ. th'sat what's happening. humira patients, you inspire us. the way you triumph over adversity. and live your lives. that's why we redesigned humira. we wanted to make the experience better for you. now there's less pain immediately following injection. we've reduced the size of the needle and removed the citrate buffers. and it has the same effectiveness you know and trust. humira citrate-free is here. a little change can make a big difference. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections,

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shhhh. i'm being quiet. you're breathing on me! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. let's go to the cemetery! this is up. as the house of representatives rachs up the impeachment investigation, the president's handling the rapid response mostly on twitter, but sometimes on the south lawn where he

competes with the twin engines, also at rallies from time to time. overnight, he tweeted three times. my cloegs and others are reporting on the scramble to counter the fast moving inquiry within the station. aides you often saw on one cable channel have kept unusual quiet. the associated press writing many of the visible officials have been staying out of the public view letting the president's commentary drive the public conversation. ben, i turn to you as someone working com shop within the white house. how foolish is it here to go ahead without having a formal war room in place. he thinks he can do it. maybe there's recognition that they can't control him to any degree so why try. talk about the fol loy of going at it this way. >> look, you usually have a formal -- war room that's about getting information media, the congress. but usually, that would be about making your case because you would think somehow the facts are on your side and the problem here is that the facts are just staring everybody in the face.

here's another thing. these people are all on the hook. they're going to end up with legal fees. hauled in front of congress. i think the reason a lot of these people don't want to go out is because you want to go down with the titanic here. you already see people breaking from the direction from trump to not testify. including this eu am bass r dorr next week. what happens when people realize do i want to go down with this ship? going to jail, do i want to end up like that? part of the reason why trump is defending himself is because frankly, there may be costs to enabling this kind of criminal behavior. >> there's the, sondland, the ambassador to the eu, going testify next week. his lawyer says he's going to. that's an opportunity for him to shape this message. to ben's point, you see her on capitol hill, in the foreign service, long time officer still working within the department of state. to have f a political appointee, a guy out in portland who gave a lot of money to doing this, that

signals that things are starting to break in some way and if i'm in his inner circle, i might take note. imt to get ahead of this, i want to shape the story. >> usually, that's the instinct in a political shop and to your point, ben, if you have a case to make, you will make it and there are people around you who are hireded to do so, who are r very good what the they do. if you work in the white house, you're very good at messaging. the fact we haven't seen these individuals indicates exactly what ben said. either they're afraid for their own future and or they know there's no excuse. and you know obviously this is a president who likes to make his own case directly to the american people. you know, whether or not that's succe successful. there's a ceiling on his support. the fact they haven't tried to shape a narrative beyond just attack institutions, makes you wonder what hasn't come out yet. >> how much are you watching the

white house counsel? here's the president who has a foot in both the private and public sec r tor. clearly he has a private lawyer who's doing a lot more than most would be doing. how much does ma matter to you, what he says or writes? >> not in the error of trump. the white house counsel does not matter because this president thinks white house con sell belongs to him. he acts like these people that work in the branches of government that are public employees get taxpayer money to do their jobs belong to him. like they belong to the trump organization and that's the way he acts because here's a guy that puts out regularly opinions that masquerade as facts. that's the hardest thing to ever come up against. i see governor weld, sanford, joe walsh b. how are they going to do this? how do they make the case that this guy isn't right. vote for news the primary. it gets hard to do when on the regular, president trump just lo loob looks at what's happening on the cables. wow, people are feeling this way

r or that way. so it's a touch and go strategy. the white house com shop. these aren't the best and brightest. these are people just happy to be there and banking on the fact they'll get high paying jobs later like the obama administration. >> every day, the white house press secretary would have to stand up in front of a room f reporter and answer questions. we get used to this being changed. it is strange to realize i don't remember the name of the white house press secretary. >> i've never heard speak. >> never heard what her voice sounds like. >> i think the trump white house feels like it doesn't have to make the case. >> exactly. only has to make the case to trump base. >> we'll leave it there. coming up next, president trump fighting a two front war with the inquiry taking space. steve cohen was on the phone call. i'll try with him as well. again with some color on what that conversation entailed and

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in their impeachment inquiry. a letter read this week, quote, your unprecedented actions have left the president with no choice in order to fulfill his due uties to the american people and all future occupants of the office of the presidency. president trump and his administration cannot par the tis pate in your partisan and uninstitutional inquiry under these circumstances. the president delivered a profanity laced message during the louisiana rally last night. his language and disavowal of the inquiry coming a few hours after nancy pelosi vowed to hold president trump accountable calling him a potty mouth recordically in a call with democratic lawmakers. we're joined with one of the lawmakers on the call. here with our panel in new york. congressman, i tried with your colleague from new york earlier to get some color on this phone call. let me try with you. a big question going into this is what does leadership say about what republicans keep

saying, that there should be a vote on impeachment? accord tog our colleagues, that didn't come up during the course of the call. what do you say to those who say let's have a vote on this and quiet down the criticism from the right? >> why don't we vote on whether you want the nationals to win or the cardinals the win. the it's not congress' business. not part of the rules. it's irrelevant. the constitution leave to the house the rules. there's no reason we have to have a vote on the floor and i believe we'll have a rote vote on the floor. on articles of impeachment and there pass with a good number of votes to pass and trump will be impeached then it will go to the senate for a trial. >> exhale with us if you would after the this long week. i want you to take stosk what's happened. certainly the indictments of two of these giuliani associates, the testimony your colleagues heard from this former u.s. current am bass tor. former u.s. am bass r dorr to

ukraine. tell us what happened. what changed over the course of this week? >> well, i think that trump's going into the profancies going into the profanities hurts him in a large way. it offends a lot of people. i didn't ofnd too many people in minneapolis to listen to that an applaud. but i think he's losing his grip on reality. i think he's getting desperate. i think he can go to a net work rant at some point. i think we're seeing the man really unwind and he's trying to take our government down but hisas have been in expressing that the congress does not have a right of oversight and to subpoena his records or his -- anybody that's had anything to do with him at all, whether executive or not, that the executive privilege applies, these are not valid arguments and it's making for a presidency that the constitution unlike anything the constitution

described. right now mitch mcconnell is not doing that and donald trump doesn't want nancy pelosi and is house democrats and the house republicans too. we've got to point where this shouldn't be about democrat or republican. it should be about supporting your oath of office and the oath of office is being questioned because if you don't stand up to this president who is trying to make the executive the only branch that matters then you're not upholding your oath and you know, you're contributing to the end of the history of the legislative body that you're a member of and you should have some pride in and respect and stand up for them. >> a question for you, congressman. >> thanks. congressman, the president all but declared war this week on the impeachment inquiry and has been stone walling subpoena requests from democrats. are you kurned that the president could run out the clock and not be held accountable and what can be done

about that? >> that's a concern i've had for a long time and i still have that concern. we had a win yesterday in the court of appeals but that could be sent up to the full court and then it could go to the supreme court and one of the things that was said and it was well posed because the supreme court justice roberts really will have the united states' constitution in his and her hands to determine whether or not we continue as the government that our founding fathers created for us with checks and balances and a system that works and not having a monoararch. we are truly in skaurry times. it will go to the supreme court partially because trump thinks he'll have a 5-4 decision. i have faith in justice roberts so make a decision based on the law and based on tradition. i think that will happen.

but i'm certainry concerned about running out the clock. i'd like to see us use inherent contempt. it was brought up on the call. it wasn't pursued. there's not been a desire by the leadership to pursue inherntent contempt. there are cases that said it is within our rules, within the constitution for oversight to be able to have contempt powers and subpoena people and inherent contempt is necessary, we need to use it and i think we need to use it. >> congressman, i was reading your twitter feed and you characterized this whole situation gaetding greasier and greasier. i like the graze. is there a risk here at slip fg you get into too much of this stuff? take us to that call yesterday. what did they say about the narrowness of this inquiry or are you somebody that thinks it should be wider than it is beyond just that ukraine call? >> i thoroughly understand speaker pelosi's perspective and

her logic and she's a good leader. we have an issue that unites the american people and that points out some of the illegal behavior of this president that will result in his impeachment. that we need to focus on that. now, i'm one that brought impeachment articles in november of 2017 and i think he's violated other areas but we don't want to get off the subject and get to areas where people can talk about this about mueller and this about trump tower and this about he has a right to have husband ois own bs or not. there's so much with abuse of power and obstruction of justice. the mueller report laid out obstruction of justice but we want to stay on the ukraine issue and his abuse of power, his violation of his congressional oath and it's impaling the national security of our country as such. >> what's the vibe on the judiciary committee? has that sobered or sombered the

judiciary as this inquiry proceeds? >> we know we will get the articles to come back to us to send them to the floor and that's something we're looking forward to and helping fashion those articles. and we hope to include instruction of congress as well as abuse of power. >> thank you very much. the ygentleman joining us. coming up next hour my colleague joy reed breaks down the complicated week. impeachment inquiry. troubles for his personal attorney rudy giuliani. a lot of ground to cover, that is up next on "a.m. joy." "a.m. . snacking should be sweet and simple. the delicious taste of glucerna gives you the sweetness you crave while helping you manage your blood sugar. glucerna. everyday progress.

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good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. we have a lot to get to this morning including the the latest on the u.s. abandoning kurdish forces in syria, the arrest of two soviet born associates of rudy giuliani, block buster testimony to congress by a former ambassador, plus a possible criminal investigation of former new york mayor and current trump tv lawyer rudy giuliani. but first i want to take a step back and talk just a little bit about two countries that have been at the center of your and frankly my life for now going on four years. and which are both connected to each other by donald trump. this is ukraine. note that it is huge. ukraine declared independence from russia two years after the berlin fall in 1999 and ever since russia has been not just mad but big mad.