. good morning and welcome to a.m. joy. we have a lot to get to this morning including the the latest on the u.s. abandoning kurdish forces in syria, the arrest of two soviet born associates of rudy giuliani, block buster testimony to congress by a former ambassador, plus a possible criminal investigation of former new york mayor and current trump tv lawyer rudy giuliani. but first i want to take a step back and talk just a little bit about two countries that have been at the center of your and frankly my life for now going on four years. and which are both connected to each other by donald trump. this is ukraine. note that it is huge. ukraine declared independence from russia two years after the berlin fall in 1999 and ever since russia has been not just mad but big mad. ukraine is huge so when it left

it made mother russia a lot smaller though it is still pretty huge too. it also sits on the border separating russia from europe. ukraine is a word that literally means border land and the southern part of it stretches across the black sea, a key water route for ferrying oil and natural gas to europe, which is russia's biggest customer for the stuff that keeps the lights on. curb sha and ukraine haven't been the friendliest of neighbors since ukraine declared itself an understood pen dindep. ukraine also had a lot of old -- the old soviet union's military nukes which they've destroyed when they went independent and to the delight of western fortune hunters ukraine boasts a lot of its own oil and natural gas which partly explains why modern day ukraine is so central

to the many, many scandals that beeve all been living with since president trump become the nominee in 2016. the trump campaign made a single change to the entire rnc platform, just one. watering down language that called for the protection of ukraine from russia which had invaded its former territory and still occupies the part that sticks out into the black see called crimea in 2014 causing the international sanctions that have been bedevilling vladimir putin and donald trump ever since. the cold war has also been corruption central with oligarchs and presidents grasping for control of the country's natural resources. paul manafort who now sits in prison earned mulls doing private business with those oligarchs and helped to elect and consulted for a ukranian president for nearly a decade. by the way, he was super close to russia and very, very corrupt

and when he was ousted in a people's revolution in 2014 called the revolution of dignity he fled to russia. ukraine is also at the center of the bonkers right wing conspiracy theory that russia didn't really attack our election in 2016 but rather than ukraine did and that the collusion was not with donald trump's campaign but with hillary clinton's. ukraine has proved rich not just in conspiracy theories but also opportunities for werners looking to make a post buck. it's also been the draw of oil and natural gas money. that is a draw that really put ukraine on the map for would be new school oligarchs including american ones and it appears that the part of the scandal that could lead to donald trump's improvement centers on some of those corrupt individuals looking to profit off ukraine's energy sector, even as trump seeks dirt on

hunter biden's role with the ukranian gas company. house democrats are seeking documents about whether rick perry pushed ukraine to put trump friendly americans on the board of the state owned gas and oil company in crew yan. in the t-- ukranian crow anies are accused of a scheme to inkpluns u.s. politics with illegal campaign contributions mplts they also alleged lay worked to get the ambassador to ukraine fired because she wouldn't play ball and helped giuliani to help dig for dirt on the bidens. one of them owns a company called fraud guarantee that rudy giuliani worked for and the other owns an odessa nightclub called not the bah da bing but mafia rave. you can't make this stuff up. and then there's the second country thrown into the mix and that is turkey. here it is smack in the middle

between europe x rush scha asia middle east. when michael flynn allegedly plotted the kidnapping of an opponent of the autocrat who runs turkey, erdogan, flynn ultimately pled guilty to lying to the fbi about his contacts with russia and his secret lobbying on behalf of turkey. trump's ties to erdogan are back in the news after trump add ha phone call and abruptly announced he would whisk special forces out of northern syria a big boost to turkey. we'll get to that in the show. >> her's donald trump bragging about it to his one-time campaign manager on the radio in 2015. >> if you're elected president and prosecuting the war, what do you do with turkey? is turkey is a reliable partner?

>> well, i also have -- i have a little conflict of interest because i have a major, major building in istanbul and it's a tremendously successful job. it's could trump towers, two towers not the usual one, it's two. >> so he's the author of a mem roir called a mind un-ralphed. great to talk with you. okay. i want to read to you a bit of your september 2016 piece and this was for news week. it was actually retweeted by hillary clinton during the campaign and it was how the trump's organization's foreign business ties could up end the u.s. national security. let's talk about how this figures into the plot that we are trying to unravel through impeachment coming up. let's start with ukraine. why is it that ukraine is so central and so important really to russia in such that it has gotten now to rudy ghoiuliani io

so much trouble? >> they're engaged in almost a hat trick of corruption and stupidity but ukraine is so important because it is a mainak sesz -- mainak sesz to the black sea. crimea is already under control of russia. russia has been trying to destabilize ukraine for a long time. they are still fighting ukraine, and now you have a situation where the united states is viewed thanks to donald trump as another enemy of ukraine. in fact, last week one of the main people behind an anti corruption group in kif said well now we have the united states is really no different than russia. they're both engaging in

disinformation campaigns, they're both destabilizing us. >> and rachel maddow has a great new book and she talked about the gas and businesses around the world and the way they corrupt governments. the thing that's fascinating is the size. it's the biggist country in europe. it's giant but also the fact that it is a natural gas bo hemoit and russia wants to control it. the only power and the only kind of pull they have is they could turn the lights off in europe. they could cut off the oil and so they really want to have a port to the black sea to be able to get oil and gas out and that's sort of the key to it but now all the sanctions have made it impossible for them to do business. do you kind of understand why donald trump cares about that? >> donald trump is in a completely different realm. because you know, one of the things you have is you're creating a circumstance where russia, if they gain control of ukraine, would be able to engage

in energy blackmail of the entirety of western europe. where donald trump falls into this is he doesn't -- he doesn't care about international politics. this is where the stupidity comes in. he's all obsessed with fox news type conspiracy theories. he's just not in on the -- on the game that it's all a lie. and so he's spinning about mueller and dmc servers in the ukraine and you have the biden series of lies, and you ultimately have trump who is working to help his own egoand win for 2020 and -- and truthfully, the geo political consequences of what he's doing are too complex for him to worry about. >> yeah, let's go to turkey, because i want to read the part -- your 2016 piece that hillary clinton retweeted was about turkey and donald trump's

interest in turkey. you wrote when faced with the prospect of losing the malls of dollars that flow into the trump organization from that istanbul property what position would president trump take on relations including that that country's role in fighting against isis. we kind of gotten answer to that. you wrote that in 2016. did we now get the answer? because trump and his family, let's not forget his kids, they've got business there. they're making money from there. why do-- do you think we've seea connection between his financial interest and his behavior regarding turkey? >> absolutely. aef we became president we started seeing turkish president erdogan basically threaten trump in a very, very subtle way. trump makes it out to be the development of his own. it's the development of a group

and they just paid for trump's name to be on it. he's making millions of dollars a year for his name to be on it. in his first phone call with erdogan when he had been elected president he passed on, you know, good feelings from folks from dogan who he described az his business partners and a week later erdogan out of nowhere arrests a senior executive with dogan holdings and it was a very -- and i was told by a middle eastern source it was a very, very planned effort to tell donald trump look what i can do. and so these kinds of conflicts are massive and we may not see all the pieces moving, but certainly erdogan does. >> yeah. and obviously trump does because one thing that he's about is his business and making sure that he continues to make money. >> yes. >> thank you so much. somebody's actually trying to

call me while i'm the show which is fascinating. they wanted to talk to you probably. >> friday's explosive testimony from the former ambassador to ukraine. that's next. he former ambassado ukraine. that's next. with fidelity wealth management you get straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, tax-efficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. fidelity wealth management.

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have been there. >> i think she has been a model diplomat and deserved better than the shabby treatment she received from this president and from the secretary of state. >> the model diplomat that congressman was speaking of is marie yovanovitch. she was the u.s. ambassador to ukraine until she was ousted at the urging of rudy giuliani. she gave nine hours of testimony to house democrats leading the impeachment inquiry. she testified in defiance of the white house. and the state department who had ordered government officials not to cooperate with congress. and her testimony was scathing which we know because she released her opening statement just as her secret deposition was about to get underway. it reads in part, although i understand that i served at the pleasure of the president, i was never theless incredulous that the u.s. government chose to remove an ambassador based as best as i can tell on unfounded

and false claims by people with clearly questionable motives. joining me now a former deputy assistant secretary of defense for russia ukraine and eurasia. >> thanks for having me. >> how unusual would it be for a career diplomat to be removed from her position at the behest of people who are not in government, people who were associated with the president's lawyer? >> it's -- it's not just unusual, joy, it's outrageous and actually if you look at the time line, she was asked by the state department presumably by the secretary of state to extend her tour into 2020, because there was a transition going on if you remember, you outlined the history of ukraine, there was a transition going on in their government and there was a new -- we have new this new president zelensky who's running ukraine who is inexperienced and so the idea was let's keep a seasoned ukraine watcher,

somebody who knows ukraine really well in place and then just within a matter of months because of these two random, you know, cowboy guys, she's yanked out of there. and she knew why. i mean, clearly she knew, but she was shocked as she should have been. >> let me read more of the statement. she wrote you will understandably want to ask why my posting ended so suddenly. i wanted to learn that too and i've tried to find out. i met with deputy sek retear of state who informed me of the curtailment of my term. he said the president lost confidence in me and no longer wanted me to serve as his ambassador. we now know that there was a senator involved in that group of people who wanted ms. yovanovitch to be put aside. there were the two people just arrested who were giuliani's associates who went to the senator, pete sessions,

congressman named pete sessions who then sent a letter and here it is. this is obtained by nbc news. they went to pete sessions, representative pete sessions and he wrote a letter, the letter written on congressional letter head on may 9th, 2018, addressed to the secretary of state. it asks pompeo to consider terminating ms. yovanovitch's ambassador ship and find a replacement because sessions said he received information that she had spoken privately and repeatedly about her disdain for the current administration in a way that might call for the expulsion of her immediately. we now know the two men arrested also arranged a big donation to congressman pete sessions. is that at all normal for the way that the government, the federal government normally functions? >> no, i mean, obviously people donate money to members of congress who are running for office and expect favors and you

know, depending on what they want, you know if it's legal, fine, but this was highly inappropriate. highly unusual. and it was also according to ambassador yovanovitch a lie because she had never disparaged she says in her statement she had never disparaged president trump pub welcomely or privately and that makes sense to me knowing her as i do know her from having worked in government with her and then even after i was out of government working with her. you know, she's not the type of person to do that. she's a professional. she knows she serves at the pleasure of the president, whoever is sitting in that oval office. so the fact that these two citizens, i mean, it's like your uncle joe could go over to ukraine and make something up, send a letter to a member of congress and get you fired? i mean it's outrageous. >> let me play very quickly what congressman sessions said to our affiliate in dallas last sunday. take a listen. >> she was very much against the

administration, did not represent them and spoke publicly against the administration. we were frustrated in congress with the amount of activity that was going on with replacing ambassadors and it was part of that push and was one of those pieces of feedback that i gave. >> so he's standing by what he did. that was his response to everything. you are among a nearly 30 former state and national officials who have gotten together and read an open letting all pompeo to defend ms. yovanovitch. i want to play you a sound bite of mike pompeo and he's speaking on friday to see whether you think he will actually do what you all are asking him to do. take a listen. >> in mid february you were in warsaw and so was rudy giuliani. during your time there did you meet with giuliani? >> you know, i don't talk about who i meet with. i went to warsaw for a particular purpose.

>> so you're not going to say whether you met with him? >> when i was in warsaw i had a singular focus. my focus was singly on the work that we have done. >> it sounds like you're not going to say. >> when i was in warsaw, we were working diligently to accomplish the mission. >> mike pompeo was on the phone call that is going to be the core of the impeachment of donald trump, the phone call to the new president of ukraine. do you trust mike pompeo to do anything to protect the state department from donald trump? >> no i mean, joy, this saddens me that i have to say this. we wrote this letter to secretary pompeo so our hope when we wrote it it was before this interview, which by the way i have to praise the journalist because i read the transcript. i haven't seen it, but she was really asking great questions, respectfully and he was dodging all of them. and that's disturbing because if you dodge that question, then you're implicitly admitting yes, i talked to, you know, giuliani.

yes, met with jute jugiuliani. it's unsettling because he's taking the side of this random renegade operation but frankly speaking if i could say one other thing, i've said for a while now that sondeland was acting with the knowledge and probably the instructions of pompeo. that's what i'm worried about because he says in his messaging back to ukraine more recently, if you have a problem talk to s which is secretary pompeo which is to say that sandland who was running this renegade operation to try to get dirt on vice president biden and to throw dirt on the ukranian government with regard to 2016, he was i believe acting with the knowledge of secretary pompeo now and this is disturbing. >> and quickly before we let you go. mr. sondeland are on a list of people that are to be deposed next week along with other people involved, bill taylor and we've listed them all there.

cole, george kent, these folks are all expected to be deposed next week. the trump administration has done a couple of things. one is that they've essentially said don't comply. they said everyone should not comply. m do you expect others to follow suit now that she's shown that you can have some courage and do what the law requires you to do? that's number one and the second thing is, would they do that knowing that this is an administration where the attorney general is reuping an investigation and up classifying form formerly nonclassified materials going back to hillary clinton's e-mails. there are ways that people could wind up in william barr's sights if they comply. >> so the real big picture issue is there are seasoned diplomats leaving the state department. this has been happening for a while and now we're at a crisis

level. if you lose experience it's hard to put it all back together again and then you have war and no diplomacy. this is not the way to run the state department or the u.s. government. >> if you lose experience you also don't have anyone with the depth of knowledge to defy you. you're going to be back in our next hour. we'll see you in a little bit. trump and rudy and the bus they're trying to throw each other understo other under. that is next. other under. that is next great riches will find you when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar?

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like this device to increase volume on your cell phone. - ( phone ringing ) - get details on this state program visit right now or call during business hours. how are you doing? congratulations. >> i love that picture. i can't wait to come back. see you in ukraine soon. >> he's a joyful men alongside the president's tv lawyer. they're probably not laughing so much these days. they were arrested wednesday at a washington, d.c. airport where they had purchased first class one way tickets out of the country. they were busted for allegedly funneling foreign money to u.s. politicians. donald trump says that he doesn't know the men but they sure seem to run in the same circles. here they are with the president's son, don jr. here they are with rudy

giuliani, trump and vice president mike pence. and like so many trump adjacent figures before them, here is where those high profile connections landed them in the jail in alexandria, virginia where they spent wednesday night on $1 million bond apiece. our panel joins me next when i get back. me next when i get back alda. dinner's almost ready. but one thing we could both agree on was getting geico to help with our renters insurance. yeah, switching and saving was really easy! drink it all up. good! could have used a little salt. visit geico.com and see how easy saving on renters insurance can be.

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>> you were in pictures with them. >> it's possible. i have a picture with everybody here. i don't know them i don't know about them, i don't know what they do but i don't know, maybe they were clients of rudy. i just don't know. >> joining me now former u.s. attorney and msnbc distributor professor at the new school and legal analyst for nbc and joyce vance, professor at the alabama school of law. all right. thank you, my legal eagles here. let's start with this question. donald trump claims he doesn't know these people. he's in pictures with them so he's obviously met them or et cetera. if in fact rudy giuliani who we now learned from abc news, the relationship with these two men is now the subjek of a potential criminal investigation, the business relationship, i'm going to read from abc news. the business relationship between rudy giuliani and the men charged thursday is the subject of an on going criminal

investigation being conducted by federal authorities in new york. the investigation is being conducted by the fbi's new york field office and prosecutors in the southern district of new york where ironically rudolph giul attorney. this is all crazy, but let's start with you first on this giuliani is being investigated for potential criminal conspiracy, can donald trump claim even if they admit as the lawyer for these two men, they have the same lawyer, john dowd who has already admitted to congress that the scheme that they're in trouble for was for trump. it sounds a lot like the payoff of the porn actress, right? they've admitted it was for him. after the two giuliani were subpoenaed john dowd wrote in comic sans, if what these two men did is criminal and giuliani is connected to them, and giuliani is trump's lawyer, is

donald trump then implicated in the conspiracy? ? so quite possibly. there's not a crime of guilt by association just because my lawyer does commit some crimes understood pendent of me i'm not guilty of his crimes, but if there was an agreement that you're going to do this because we're all in on it together, i want this done and president trump participated in that agreement then he is a coconspirator or if he asked giuliani to do it for him that's the crime of solicitation. we know sitting presidents can't be charged with a crime under doj policy but it could be a basis for charging others, grounds for impeachment and it could be a chargeable offense after president trump leaves office. >> i mentioned the stormy daniels situation because this sounds a lot like this. you have your guy in the case of the stormy daniels situation do a payoff of this porn actress because you don't want to do it yourself p he does its. takes out a big mortgage, he goes to jail, dot dot dot, unindicted coconspirator, this

sounds like kind of the same thing. >> it does and the question will be where does the proof take us, but in this case remember even donald trump's denial of i don't know them, talk to my lawyer giuliani who i'm not even sure is my lawyer anymore, that was interesting. >> that was a big bust. >> you either fired him or you didn't and only you know the answer to that question. so -- but i think here his -- it's almost you know, joyce and i were on last niegd and he played the side by side clips. almost identical what he said about michael cohen and it turned out he was lying. he -- because we then find out when micah cohen testifies before congress that michael cohen was collecting checks on the white house. so he obviously knew those payments were being made because he was signing -- and his son was signing one of the checks. so in this case, the question is, is that what we're going to

establish and remember that on the call with president zelensky, donald trump is making a lot of references like about the u.s. ambassador, like about things that we know giuliani was explicitly working on. >> yeah. >> and that's showing up in his call with president zelensky. that's a bad look. one last thing, wiretaps. that's it. >> she just dropped wiretaps on the table. >> meaning whatever conversations were happening between giuliani and these two men. >> they're recorded somewhere. >> there may be recordings and then there's the question object what's being referenced and who's being referenced. we have no lives, all we do is live in this stuff. donald trump calls the president of ukraine who's newly elected, has no relationships, needs money, needs defense money to defend his country against europe. donald trump says and this is a transcript they put out.

i'm going to need you to do me a favor though and then he references giuliani. he says i need you to talk to and work with giuliani because he needs this dirt on the former vice president joe biden's son. so he references giuliani and also the current attorney general william barr. he says work with them to get the dirt. when this comes before congress in an impeachment hearing or if this goes to court, could giuliani because he's trump's lawyer, i don't think he's fired him, not that we've heard. can he then say attorney/client privilege, i can't discuss any of this? >> so this is an interesting question and there are a couple of ways of looking at attorney/client privilege. first question is is giuliani even president trump's attorney? so for instance, he might not be acting as an attorney if he's out creating foreign policy or if he's working on campaign strategy. that's maybe the first barrier that trump would have to establish to even have the possibility of claiming that these communications were

covered by the attorney/client privilege. what that privilege does is it means that the client has the ability to keep the attorney or anyone else from making public those communications as long as they cover legal matters. >> right. >> and also as long as they're confidential. so if they had these conversations around other people who weren't part of that legal relationship -- >> you mean like the secretary of state? >> secretary of state might do it or if you go on national television and talk about your communications or release transcripts so there are both of those aspects of it and then let's say we got to a situation before congress or in court where some prosecutor or some senator wanted to get testimony about what was said, and there's the possibility that these conversations wouldn't be under the attorney/client privilege because of the crime fraud exception. you can't get legal advice to cover up a crime and here's the kicker. president trump runs the government. he has all the resources of the

state department at his disposal. why does he need giuliani to run a shadow diplomacy if it's not crooked? >> here's the other fun part because giuliani is most known as being the, you know, america's mayor, everybody gave him extra credit for being mayor after 9/11. after that is how do you monotize that if you're rudy giuliani and he goes off and does all this foreign sort of work but before that he was at the sd and y. he was a u.s. attorney. he put a lot of mobsters in prison using a lot of confidential sources. but here is someone from sd and y, taking a warning shot at not just donald trump but also at rue soldolph giuliani. >> protecting our elections from unlawful influence are core functions of our campaign finance laws. and as this office has made clear, we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those

who engage in criminal conduct that draws into question the integrity of our political process. and i want to add that this investigation is continuing. >> giuliani himself was planning on getting on a plane and flying to vienna, the same place that the two men were going on one way tickets. he was going to get on a fight 24 hours after they were ae rested. >> he wasn't under any charges at the time so i don't know if that alone puts him in trouble, but he's keerly somebody, i mean, the reporting is that he's under investigation. it is really unfathomable that a prior u.s. attorney is being investigated by his office. you know, i think that joyce and i were u.s. attorney, she was in the u.s. attorney's office. the idea that any of us would be investigated by our former offices would be the worst thing that could happen to ustion. but you know, giuliani has -- if he has committed crimes i think what the u.s. attorney berman

has said there that he emphasized the case is still under investigation and they won't hesitate to bring to justice anyone who's committed crimes, i think there's a lot of things you can't say when you're a u.s. attorney. but that's a very strong signal that there are other under investigation. >> and giuliani went to work for this company fraud guarantee which i can't believe that's the name of it. >> if you wrote a novel in that people would say you were corny. >> none of this would sell in hollywood. no one would believe it. >> so it's impossible to not believe that rudy jewel swrulgi person of interest. whether or not that rumts in an indictment is a different story. i think the question about donald trump is different. you know, while that was a very strong statement, if we have robert mueller who even in the context of substantial evidence,

that's the language robert mueller used, substantial evidence that donald trump engaged in obstruction of justice, it's -- and yet didn't feel that he could sitting in the department of justice look at donald trump for a prosecutorial standpoint, it's very hard to imagine that the southern district of new york is going to do that with regard to donald trump. i say that because what's critical is the fact that you have the u.s. attorney's office clearly looking to flip some people. that's really part of the signal in that press conference is we're still investigating. that -- they've been charged with a couple of crimes. i'm not sure there aren't more that are chargeable from them based on what we're hearing and learning when means part of the process is you try to get people to flip. then you go after other people but all that can become evidence for congress. >> very quickly before we go, you know who can't flip on anybody? trump. and you know he weon't be

president forever. is he in trouble if this becomes a criminal scheme that took place in new york? does he then have a new york prosecutable problem and could giuliani do as well? >> i know people in this country were deeply disappointed by the results of the mueller report, which is my assessment discovers he is part of crimes. the district attorney in manhattan has got son somegoing matters and the new york attorney general is involved too. >> you can't escape forever and i think donald trump has escaped for 73 years and thinks he can do anything. new york, that's where trump tower is and a whole lot of things happening in new york. keep -- watch this space as rachel maddow says.

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to just abandon them like that so the turks can come in and slaughter them is not just immoral, i mean, it taints our reputation all over the world. >> we can't abandon the kurds now. we can't turn it over to turkey. to think that will work is really delusional and dangerous. >> are you kidding me? again we're abandoning our most loyal allies who did all our fighte fighters? all we did was arm them and they did all the work and now we say,

good luck surviving. >> donald trump's decision to endorse a turkish military operation against the kurds in syria and to pull back u.s. troops from the area has sparked widespread backlash. even republicans who never dare to criticize trump have said publicly that by pulling out our special forces, the united states is abandoning its most crucial partner in the ground fight against isis in syria. the kurds have been vital to ousting isis from its strongholds and holding thousands of u.s. fighters and their families in makeshift prisons, but turkey has viewed the rise of kurdish forces on its southern border with syria as a threat. u.s. troops were perhaps the only thing preventing turkey from invading the kurdish strongholds in northern syria, but now the turkish military has advanced inside syria, striking kurdish military sites and border towns, enforcing thousands of civilians to flee. joining me now is nbc news chief global correspondent bill neely, live from erbil in iraq. bill, what is the situation for the kurds at this moment, at

this time? >> hi, joy. you joined me in a bit of a storm, but the real storm, of course, is on the battlefield and diplomatically. we've got street-to-street fighting now on day four of this invasion of turkish forces have pushed into one of the border towns, and they're trying to do what armies always do. speed is their best ally. they do not want the kurds to dig in. they want to get to this 20-mile limit as fast as possible because there's an international outcry, and that increased today. the u.s. warning the turks that their relations with turkey are at real risk. the defense secretary mark esper telling his counterpart to basically de-escalate before this gets completely out of control. treasury secretary steve mnuchin threatening that we can shut down turkey's economy. the arab league condemning what they call the invasion of an arab land, and so on.

big calls also from europe to stop this, but president erdogan absolutely defiant, saying we will not stop for anyone, and his spokesman saying today that blackmail and threats will never deter us, victory will be ours. and joy, i mean, i think in the long run, you know, turkey has the second biggest military in nato, and they're up against the kurdish forces who are only lightly armed. and i think in the end, there is only one winner on the battlefield, but i think the problem for the turks is what happens once they take this safe zone, because it's quite possible they will face weaks or months or maybe years of guerrilla-style attacks from the kurds. so, day four today is just ending. heavy fighting. but you know, real disputes internationally on this. >> well, and you know, beyond just the fact that the kurds are our ally and that we have been in support of them for so long

and, you know, all of our nato allies have been, the other issue here is that the kurds are also the ones that are holding off isis and they're holding isis captives. donald trump has indicated they should be sent to europe, which is a strange, weird threat. what has the turkish government said? because it's odd to me that any country would want those isis fighters to be freed, unleashed, but it seems like what they're doing is going to do just that. >> reporter: yeah, and the fact that the kurds sacrificed 11,000 of their own fighters in the fight against isis is what annoys, outrages everyone from senator lindsey graham right through, of course, to the kurds themselves. one officer saying trump's name will always now be linked with the word betrayal. and the fight against isis is the real strategic issue in this area, and the kurds have made absolutely clear that for them, that's at least over. and there are no nighttime raids by u.s. special forces and kurds

anymore. that has stopped completely. the kurds are focused on the attack by the turks. they don't want to be simply the guards of isis prisons. there have already been a couple of attempts at escapes. the kurds say three attempted jailbreaks. five isis prisoners did escape from one jail. and the french president, macron, talked to president trump on the phone. that is the first thing he said -- at least that's what the palace mentioned in its statement. first of all, the possibility of the revival, resurgence of isis. for europe and for the u.s., that's the number one strategic threat, and that is what's at stake here, of course, joy. >> wow. bill neely, thank you so much. really appreciate that. get inside. thank you very much. welcome back. meanwhile, back in washington, senator lindsey graham, yes, trump's erstwhile and ever obedient golf partner

and congressional friend has surprisingly been one of the loudest opponents of trump's decision on syria. >> we can't abandon the kurds now. we can't turn it over to turkey. to think that will work is really delusional and dangerous. >> sounds tough, but this is lindsey graham. so it may not be all that surprising that in a call back in august with someone senator graham thought was turkey's minister of defense but was actually a pair of russian pranksters, he had quite a different take. >> your ypg kurdish problem is a real problem. i told president trump that obama made a huge mistake in relying on the ypg kurds. everything i worried about has come true. and now we've got to make sure that turkey is protected from this threat in syria. i'm sympathetic to the ypg problem. >> joining me now is charlie pierce of "esquire," malcolm nance, author of "plot to

destroy democracy," and newsweek columnist and author of "how to catch a russian spy" and msnbc national analyst evan farkas. thank you for being here. i have to come to you first on this, charlie, because probably the least surprising thing in the news this week was that lindsey graham may not be saying publicly what he thinks privately, but it is a bit weird to have him saying to the turkish leader back in august, oh, i get that you have a kurdish problem, when he's now the one railing the most about the abandonment of the kurds. >> well, i mean, certainly -- i'm glad you came to me as the one with the least foreign policy experience, because that's pretty much what got us into this problem in first place because the president has none! >> yeah. >> but abandoning the kurds is an american tradition. it goes back at least 25 years that i can think of. i think when bill neely was talking about what steve mnuchin said and what the secretary of defense said -- none of that stuff matters because this is a deal made between two out

democra -- autocrats on a phone call in middle of the night. the only people that can do anything about this is erdogan or donald trump and neither one is going to do anything. >> the reason i come to you first is because this is poaham, the politics are about being beholden to trump, until they're not. >> right. i think he's still beholden to trump. i don't think he'll do anything. he's going to talk, but will he sign on to a senatorial resolution condemning the decision if one came up? i'm not sure he would. >> maybe. so, let's talk about what's happening here, because you have now isis -- this is actually cut seven -- sorry, i'm changing my plan here, but isis bears its head, adding to chaos as turkey battles kurds. this is a "new york times" piece. malcolm, the kurdish invasion of kurdish-held territory in syria raised new fears of the islamic state on friday as five militants escaped and the extremist group claimed responsibility for a bomb in the regional capital. lindsey graham was one of the

loudest voices claiming that it was president obama who allowed isis to resurge by drawing us down in iraq, the war we went to because pretend, you know, the previous administration pretended that iraq had something to do with 9/11. now you have a republican president, donald trump, essentially allowing isis to literally come back. >> yeah. isis will literally come back. first off and foremost, forget anything that you hear from the administration. this administration lies about everything that they're saying right now, everything that they're saying is a lie. within the structure of the middle east geopolitical framework, okay, isis was held and was obliterated by the kurdish forces who came south with our special forces. they kicked in the doors. they were the ones who lost 11,000 dead men and women fighting and defeating isis. they surrounded the last stronghold and took all of them prisoner or are holding all of their families in these compounds.

but there's one thing that didn't happen, we never caught isis' leader, abu bakr al baghdadi. he is still out there and these people have a place in which to rally around, forces in which they will be able to attack and take weapons from, and also, it will give them the ability to appear that they are invincible, that isis cannot be defeated. that's why they did the suicide bombing in raqqah, the capital. and what will happen here is, when the russians and the assad government sweep from the south and take the oil fields that we actually killed 250 russians over a year ago, okay, and the turks sweep down from the north, what you're going to see it an insurgency that's going to make isis appear like amateurs, because they have special forces training, they have equipment, and they have the 2 million people who are facing an existential threat to their way of life, but isis will just

dissipate, go off into small terrorist cells. the foreigners, especially these french and belgians who are there in southern syria, will start working their way home, and like donald trump wants, he wants them to commit acts of terrorism because it further the political message he's been putting out. >> but russia seems -- the pieces i've been reading says that russia is also a winner here in donald trump giving in to this autocrat in turkey. what does russia get out of all this? >> russia gets the middle east! i don't know if you've noticed, but russia now sells weapons systems to iran, weapons systems to turkey. they prop up the entire gassing terroristic government of bashar al assad, right, who used chemical weapons on his own people. they're selling weapons systems to saudi arabia, which, by the way, someone explain to me why we're sending 3,000 u.s. soldiers to saudi arabia this week, and we're removing our special forces out of kurdistan to allow them to be killed?

>> yeah. >> russia is now calling all the shots in the middle east, and i wouldn't be surprised if donald trump called vladimir putin to get advice on this before he made his deal with turkey. >> it's pretty crazy. if we can find another map of all this, because i do love to just show the visuals, because people forget like the proximity of all -- they're all on top of each other. >> oh, yeah. >> and turkey is right there. the former leader of the aoddma empire. naveed, you wrote a piece for "newsweek" called "turkey attacks u.s. special forces in syria, apparently bye mistake." what is going on there? can you please explain? >> yeah, we can report now with james laporta and tom o'connor, we have a few reports. this was not a few warning shots, post operation three, as it's called, where the u.s. forces are. in fact, it was so close to the operation force that u.s. forces there asked to return fire.

the bombardment went on for 10 to 15 minutes and only stopped when u.s. air assets lazed the turkish battery. what that means, joy, is that the turks would have kept the artillery barrage if not for u.s. air power letting them know, if they didn't stop, they were going to get a bomb on their forehead. the second thing that we can report, in conversations i've had with a senior turkish intelligence official is that the kurds did not know about donald trump's decision to allow the turks to move forward with the invasion. in fact, they found out, like the rest of us, over twitter. they have not had conversations since. what it paints, joy, to me, is a decision that is just chaotic, that was done in an impulsive move by trump, one that has not been coordinated with u.s. forces. i mean, we heard the sec def and the joint chiefs of staff say that the turks had the positions down to a grid, which is within a meter of where u.s. forces are. well, yesterday would tell us that either the turks knew where the u.s. forces were or they

most likely didn't, so that goes against this. this just shows that, again, this is a president who makes these incredibly impulsive moves, has no real strategic understanding of what he's doing, and no practical planning. and we have, you know, officials that are scrambling to try to make things work, and it's just -- we've hit a wall where they can't catch up fast enough, and that's why we have this breakdown here. we have american soldiers that were almost killed, frankly. >> yeah. okay, that's terrifying. evelyn farkas -- first, i want to read you a statement from turkey on the alleged targeting of a u.s. observation post earlier today. turkish border outpost south of suruq came under dochka and mortar fire from the hills located approximately 1,000 meters southwest of a u.s. observation post. in self-defense reciprocal fire was opened on the terrorist positions of the attack. turkey did not open fire at the u.s. observation post in any way. all precautions were taken prior to opening fire to prevent any harm from the u.s. base. as a precaution, we ceased fire

upon receiving information from the u.s. we firmly reject the claim that u.s. or coalition forces were fired upon." evelyn, as somebody who worked for the defense department, first of all, this is a nato problem, right? if there is now fire that's reaching u.s. forces in any way, whatever the explanation for it was, that's number one. and can you address whether or not in any way it is normal for our allies in a foreign theater, a war theater, to find out what the commander in chief of the united states is going to do to them by twitter? >> no, joy, none of this is normal. i mean, what everybody needs to understand, all the people watching at home, is that this is a catastrophic, moral, military, diplomatic blunder that our president has committed, because he cleared the way. he said, "come on in, turkey!" i'm going to move my forces and you can do what you want with these kurds. i mean, it's astonishing. and he did it on vladimir putin's birthday.

>> wow. >> so, there's that element as well. he announced it on vladimir putin's birthday. but the real issue here is that our government has no strategy vis-a-vis the middle east. and this is the problem. number one, you have the counterterrorism issue. so, this is only making it more dangerous now for the united states and our allies in europe, right? because these isis fighters -- the kurds are not going to be able to hang on. they have to defend themselves, their families, their villages. they won't be able to guard these facilities that much longer if the turks continue. second, you have the civil war raging in syria. we had some leverage, we still have some leverage because we still have troops there. we should be using that leverage to get to the negotiating table. and i have to say, i'm also really disappointed in the europeans. yes, they went to the united nations and it was astonishing that we were on the side of russia and iran with our european allies basically -- >> welcome to the new normal. >> right. but i can also square the circle a little bit on senator graham, which is to say -- and i don't defend anything he's saying on ukraine and russia lately, but

he had a point. we did not think through -- this was kind of a patchwork deal we had with the kurds. the only way to actually come out of this nicely would have been at the negotiating table, and this is exactly where our president went wrong. >> yeah. and to come back to -- you know, i don't want to make you the graham explainer today, but you're kind of in that position, charlie, because -- >> a graham whisperer. >> yeah, you're the graham whisperer, because here's the thing, the theory on lindsey graham is that he traded his dignity for access, that essentially, he thought he had influence over donald trump, that he could prevent him from making rash decisions because he's his best friend and that he would at least -- he didn't even call him. he simply tweeted out this new policy after calling the turkish autocrat. so you've got him, you've got liz cheney with the statement of umbrage! how dare we withdraw! all of the hawks are now coming out. these are people who claimed they had influence over trump because they literally took the knee and sort of bowed down to him all this time. they have no influence. >> this guy didn't become president 15 minutes ago.

if they couldn't figure this out by now, none of them deserve the offices they're in. >> can you put up the list? this is all of the senators condemning the policy change -- lindsey graham, marco rubio, susan collins, ben sasse joni ernst, marsha blackburn, putt toomey -- none of these people have any influence over donald trump. >> no, they don't. but what they do have influence over, or they should have influence over, are their own political futures. they should -- this group should get together and take a concerted action, a concerted political action against this. look, what our role is in the middle east going forward is a legitimate topic for political debate in this country. it's a debate for serious people. unfortunately, we don't have many of those in the executive branch these days. these people can be the -- i mean, if they want to, they can be the wise men, but they're not doing that. all they're doing is putting out -- is furrowing their brows until their eyebrows are in the back of their head and putting

out strongly worded statements. mitt romney has absolutely nothing to lose. >> right. >> he's richer than donald trump. he's going to be in that senate seat until three weeks after he's dead. there's nothing donald trump can do to mitt romney except ridicule him on twitter. mitt romney could be the one. and this has been the case ever since he gave that speech during the 2016 campaign, but he comes right up to the edge and then he can't do it. >> and here's the thing. and here we go back to our anniversary time again -- happy anniversary again, almost four years we'll be talking about this? is that they won't and they can't and no one can understand why. let me read you a little piece about this betrayal, which bill neely said that according to the kurds, donald trump's name will always be associated with betrayal. that's got to be like ice in the veins of any pro trump person who now that's his reputation, among other things. this is from "the guardian," waiting on a roadside go, hussein rammo, a stooped elderlily occurred, his eyes wet with tears, had the look of a

broken man. "betrayal leaves a bad taste." this is donald trump's legacy and also every single republican's legacy, whether they're complaining now or not, no? >> i have bad news for you. it's every single american's legacy. >> that's a very good point. >> look, i've operated with the kurds, i've carried out intelligence operations in iraq with iraqi kurds. these people have very deep memories, and personal betrayal is one of those things where you really need to watch your back. now, all these operators with the special forces who were out there, who had very personal relationships, they're not going to hold it against them, but they will hold it against americans in the future. let's say that this operation goes forwards and thousands of kurds are starting to be killed, right, and they start losing hundreds of fighters to this thing. then the united states and americans will start being seen by them as the people who need to be targeted. so, you know, fortunately, we've withdrawn our troops or brought

them back where they're at. but in the future, american journalists, american citizens around the world, american assets, you may have unleashed a terrorist group that is very, very well trained, but the only reason that they're doing that, or even worse, they just allow isis to do their thing while they're protecting their wives and kids. this is not well thought through because the man who came up with the policy is a moron! and he should never have been allowed near the levers of power, and now he is betraying our closest allies in the middle ea east. >> and you occasionally interact with members of congress. the question is not what they're going to say, but what they're going to do. as malcolm just laid out, consequences could flow across all 327 million americans. this is not just consequences to donald trump's reputation. it's real damage damage. what do you expect or think that anyone is going to actually do about it? >> yeah, i have to agree with charlie. i think that this is -- we've seen it time and time again with the republicans. look, i just want to focus on what malcolm just said about

betrayal. one of the things we're hearing, in fact, from syria is not just the kurds who feel betrayed, but rather, it's the u.s. forces who have really forged a relationship with these kurds who were caught completely off guard by this announcement. and they're feeling betrayed. i mean, if you read the dod's statement yesterday, it was pretty harsh. and i think that that shows kind of where america is. if you've lost the trust of the people on the battlefield, where are we going? and that is exactly what is happening today. >> yeah. last word to you on this, evelyn. you are a former deputy assistant secretary of defense. donald trump lost his original secretary of defense, general mattis, over the withdrawal from syria. do you expect anyone in the department where you used to work to resign over this? >> no, i don't. and i know the current secretary, mark esper, you know, he was very firm, as malcolm just said, and they also said in their statement that turkey knows where we are. so, this is a betrayal, though. he's got a morale problem. i mean, we already heard earlier

in your hour about secretary pompeo's morale problem. they've got a morale problem over at dod as well. >> well, and i wonder why. charlie pierce, malcolm nance, naveed jamali, evelyn farkas, thank you very much. appreciate your time. coming up, right-wing evangelical leaders do something even more rare than lindsey graham criticizing donald trump. we will tell you what that is when i'm joined by author jim wallace, next. if you're 65 or older, even if you're healthy,

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the president who allowed khashoggi to be cut in pieces without any repercussions whatsoever is now allowing the christians and the kurds to be massacred by the turks, and i believe -- and i want to say this with great solemnity -- the president of the united states is in danger of losing the mandate of heaven. >> wow! well, white evangelical christians, including televangelist pat robertson, have been devout members of the maga coalition, remaining absolutely faithful to donald trump, even through the russiagate scandal, his sexual allegations and his policy of separating largely christian refugee mothers and fathers from their children at the border. but surprisingly this week, some dared speak out against trump's decision to pull back u.s. forces from northern syria, allowing turkey to attack kurdish forces there.

right-wing christian leaders have spoken out against the turkish operation, arguing that kurds are key protectors of the region's christian minority. even uber trump ally franklin graham raised his voice. well, okay, he made a tweet that read -- "pray for the christians who the kurds have been protecting. they could be annihilated." joining me now is revered jim wallis, founder of sojourners and author of "christ in crisis." i have your book, carrying it around with me because i'm really looking forward to reading it, sir. and you wrote a piece in the "chicago sun-times" this thursday in which you said, "trump versus jesus: christians can't follow both." sorry, you were quoted in it. apologies for making you the author of it. you were quoted saying "there is a conflict between the politics of jesus and the politics of trump. at some point, christians have to ask themselves, are the teachings of christ going to be followed or not?" do you see in this very small uprising among some right-wing

evangelical christian leaders an opening where people might decide that they cannot simply follow trump off the ledge? >> it's nice to see you, joy. >> thanks. >> great question. i think there should have been uprising long before this. the question of why these white evangelicals are supporting trump over and over, no matter what he says and does is a big question, and we should linger on that for a moment. it's being asked around the world. and they don't have to answer that question from me or even from you, but they've got to answer some jesus questions, some questions jesus asked or was prompted to ask. and so, how do we get to those jesus questions? i think that's going to be the big issue here. when you hear conversation about jesus -- that's why i did this book on the jesus questions. so, you know, racial bigotry is

a deal-breaker for the gospel. i wish i would have heard these people saying that before. it's a deal-breaker for the gospel. so, this is maybe an irreverent or a controversial word, but i have to say, we have to say that white nationalism is not just racist, it's antichrist. dehumanizing immigrants isn't just a lack of compassion, it's really antichrist. i know it's a strong word, but demeaning women, sexual violence and harassment isn't just sexist, it's antichrist. so, this is a following jesus question more than just a foreign policy or a political question. >> and to your very point, if you look at the polling about the ways that white evangelical christians feel about donald trump, his approval rating even today -- and this is an october 3 through 8 poll -- is at 67% among white evangelical

christians, just 27% disapprove and 6% are somehow unsure. >> right. >> then if you go to the npr/pbs marist poll -- sorry, same poll -- will evangelical christians vote for donald trump for re-election? 62% say yes. the same percentage -- 62% say yes, 27%, same percent, say no. 12% are unsure. then if we go to the question of whether or not people believe the country, the u.s., is going in the right direction or the wrong direction, half, 50% of white evangelical christians say yes, it's going the right direction. 40% say it's not, not clear how they connect that to trump. so, how do you suppose just on this -- as you said, nothing about the sexual abuse allegations move them, nothing about separating christian families at the border, nothing about caging children, many of whom are christian coming from central america -- none of that moved them. but now you have tony perkins, a total trump ally, coming out this week and saying, "i do not have a high level of confidence, in fact, i have no confidence that turkey will preserve true

religious freedom to protect those religious minorities." why suddenly on the protection of religious minorities and the risk that turkey poses to them, why are they suddenly turning? >> well, you know, that's the right question. why didn't they turn before when first corinthians says that when one member of the body -- the body of christ -- suffers, we all should suffer. so, when black christian parents are afraid for their kids going out to school in the morning or immigrant families don't know if they'll be together at night, why wasn't that an uprising? it makes me feel like the operative word in white evangelical is, sadly, not evangelical, but white. and so, i have to push my brothers and sisters who are white evangelicals to embrace the teachings of jesus, beyond the boundaries of their very

ho homogenais church cultures. that is the question, will we follow jesus? and the politics of jesus are really adverse to the politics of trump. and following those politics of jesus will cause increasingly defectio defections. so, maybe this foreign policy crisis or what trump has done again, will awaken some of these people. i think it might. i think if they listen to their black and brown evangelical brothers and sisters, if they listen to what people are saying now around the world, if they really listen to what jesus said about who is my neighbor, what is the truth? these are fundamental jesus questions that we all have to answer, not just white evangelicals. >> and quickly, we are out of time, but i briefly want to ask you, do you think that the neighbors question is part of it? these are christians who may be nonwhite, but they're not here. they're not in america. >> joy, i think the most important question that got asked of jesus by a lawyer -- i think it was a washington

lawyer, actually, said, who is my neighbor? and jesus responds with, your neighbor is the one who's most different than you. the good samaritan text, reread it. i mean, this is what -- your neighbor is the one who's different than you, outside your path. trump has targeted those that jesus calls our neighbors, and we have to find our neighbor again. that's back to jesus, and that's deeper than an election. >> reverend jim wallis, always good to talk to you. congratulations on the book. thank you. appreciate your time. >> great to be here with you. coming up, professor lawrence tried is here to explain how the impeachment of donald trump is going to play out. that is next. trump is going to out. that is next

and another one bites the dust. acting homeland security secretary kevin mcaleenan announced friday that he is resigning his post. the announcement comes just a few days after he was booed off the stage at georgetown university by protesters carrying signs that say "hate is not normal" and "stand with immigrants." up next, where we are on impeachment from the expert. stay with us. impeachment from the expert. stay with us ♪

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the president is goading us into, wants to goad us into impeachment. every single day, whether it's obstruction, obstruction, obstruction, obstruction of having people come to the table with facts, ignoring subpoenas, every single day, the president is making a case. he's becoming self-impeachable on terms of some of the things -- >> well, let's -- >> donald trump is proving speaker nancy pelosi right. and this week, uber conservative

columnist george will made much the same point, writing that donald trump's refusal to cooperate in congress' impeachment inquiry as well as his decision on syria is the type of self-impeachment speaker pelosi predicted. he added that republicans have failed to preserve congressional power, writing that in his view, in 13 months, all congressional republicans who have not defended congress by exercising the constitutional rights of the place should be defeated. and joining me now is lawrence tride, harvard professor of constitutional law and author of "to end a presidency." always good to talk to you, professor. >> good to be here. >> i want to first jump in on this term self-impeachment. is that a thing? because now you've had george will on the right and speaker pelosi on the left both use it. >> well, it's a rhetorical thing, but the truth is that the president of the united states has betrayed his oath, he has betrayed the people of the united states by using our foreign policy and military power for his own benefit and

his own re-election. ukrainegate is a very serious matter, and the evidence is already in to impeach the president for high crimes and misdemeanors. the only reason that the house needs to wait until thanksgiving or whenever is that there is a little more detail to be filled in. fiona hill will testify. the ambassador to the european union will testify. not everyone will defy subpoenas. i think it's important to recognize that it is the betrayal of the country and the abuse of power that is at the center of what this man needs to be removed for. his stonewalling is secondary, although that, too, is an impeachable offense. >> okay, i want to break that down to those two pieces, because you have the ukrainegate part of it, which moved a lot of conservative democrats to finally give speaker pelosi the votes. you need 225 votes, i think, at

least for the impeachment inquiry, so that seems to be set in stone, over the ukrainegate part of it. but on the part of defying subpoenas and telling people not to show up when they're subpoenaed -- you just had the former ukrainian ambassador defy that and show up anyway. donald trump just lost a big case. he lost a federal appeal over a subpoena for his financial records, so it doesn't seem like the courts, even stacked by donald trump and mitch mcconnell, are necessarily going to support him, say that he can defy subpoenas. could defying subpoenas buy the impeachment inquiry itself, that become impeachable? >> well, it certainly was in the case of richard nixon in article three. and when the white house laid down the gauntlet and basically said, we spit on congress, we don't want anyone to cooperate, that signal in itself, even though it's not going to be heeded by everybody, that signal in itself is a defiance of congress and an obstruction of

the impeachment process. and as you said, the courts are beginning to hold that the president is violating the law, although it must be said that in the recent d.c. circuit decision, one judge -- the judge who was appointed by donald trump -- had a rather remarkable descent in which she basically said that congress has to stop investigating the president as soon as it gets upon impeachable offenses. very bizarre opinion by judge row. but i think if any of these cases get to the supreme court, the president is going to lose. he's going to lose even the votes of conservative jurists. but we don't need to wait for the courts. the president has denied the constitution. he's betrayed his oath. he's betrayed more simply than our allies, the kurds. he's betrayed our efforts against isis. he's betrayed the nation. and of all of those things, horrible as some of them are, the most obviously impeachable is his using his presidential

power to shake down an ally against an adversary in order to create dirt against a political opponent. this is what the framers invented the impeachment power for, and it's got to be used and it's got to be used promptly. >> well, okay, promptly i think is the key here, because there are a lot of folks out there in the world that are watching this happen and wondering why not just proceed to a vote on impeachment now? >> well, the word now is a little elastic. the reason we're not doing it today rather than in several weeks is that the public is only beginning to wake up to what's going on. 40% of the people in a recent poll didn't really know that the president had mentioned joe biden in this call with president zelensky, but people are coming along. they're learning the facts. in many recent polls, over half the people are ready to see the president impeached and removed,

and as soon as the public is there, the time will be right. so, it's a question of detail, precisely when nancy pelosi decides to have articles of impeachment presented through the intelligence committee and then the judiciary committee. but right now, we're in the end game with respect to impeachment. we have to keep investigating anyway. the president is not going to get away with all kinds of offenses simply because we've got him on impeachable offenses already. >> right. and could the house break up an impeachment vote and say, the obstruction of the impeachment inquiry itself in our view is impeachable, vote through articles of impeachment, send those to the senate, and then keep investigating him to add potentially additional counts? >> yes, although the one i think they should send first is not the technical sounding one about subpoenas but the fundamental

one of betraying his oath and abusing his power by essentially siding with his buddy, putin, against ukraine and using his leverage over ukraine in order to get re-elected. that is the smoking howitzer in the picture, and that should be the first and central object of an impeachment charge. >> and let me ask you this, because the other thing that confuses a lot of people is how can people, other than ms. yovanovitch, who bravely defied the white house and state department who showed up when she was called to testify -- how do people get away with saying, nope, i'm not going to show up? isn't that illegal? >> it's illegal, but right now, the main law enforcer is in the hip pocket of the president. that's william barr. happily, that's not true of the head of the southern district of new york office. the u.s. attorney berman. he is proceeding to investigate,

it would appear, even rudy giuliani. and those matters are going forward. and i imagine that in the conspiracy to shake down ukraine, co-conspirator individual number one is likely to be donald trump, even though under the misguided olc policy, he won't be indicted until he is out of office, which i think is not going to be quite as long from now as he might hope. >> wow. yeah, exactly. and that's when the exposure to all of the justice division -- not federally, but in new york as well, becomes all available. professor laurence tribe, always good to talk to you. thank you for being here. >> thanks. >> coming up, watergate 2.0. g u. ♪ we would walk on the sidewalk ♪ ♪ all around the wind blows ♪ we would only hold on to let go ♪ ♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we need someone to lean on

♪ blow a kiss into the sun ♪ we needed somebody to lean on ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ all we need is someone to lean on ♪ ♪

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the group of prosecutors who would have put richard nixon away, had he not resigned first. and now, 17 of those watergate prosecutors have come together to write an op ed, saying donald trump has met the criteria for impeachment. joining me now is former assistant watergate special prosecutor jill wine-banks along with ryan goodman, co-editor in chief of the just security online forum. this is a super panel. i'm really glad you're both here. jill, this is a piece of "the washington post" op ed that you were one of the cosigners, creators of. and it said, "in 1974 it was a group of republican senators who put national security interests over party loyalty and informed nixon that his conduct was indefensible and would compel conviction by the senate and removal from office. we hope the current senate would similarly put honor and integrity above partisanship and personal political interests." do you -- that's a hope that you can have, but do you believe it will happen? mitch mcconnell is already signaling to his donors that he would be the place where impeachment would die, that he would kill it in the senate. >> well, i still remain

pollyanna, and i can remain aspirationally motivated to think that it could happen, that facts will matter, and that as the american people -- as polls are showing -- are turning against the president and starting to believe that he should not only be impeached but that he should be convicted and removed from office. i think that that will ultimately affect the republicans who know that if they stick with him, it will be like having a very heavy anchor tied to them and that they need to take some action. i think it's important to note that in the letter that the former watergate office people sign signed, phil akavar was a republican until the election of donald trump. he voted for nixon twice, but believed in justice. and i think that that's what people have to see is that the

facts matter and that in this case, don't have to keep investigating. there is enough right now on the public record. and unless there is something that we haven't seen and that donald trump is hiding that counters that, there is enough evidence for crimes, but you don't need a crime. you have impeachable offenses. you have a danger to american security. ambassador yovanovitch made clear the danger to america. and i worked in ukraine at a time when it was extremely corrupt. and so, i completely understand the help that the state department provides to american business to do business in ukraine and how important it is that ukraine, kerr a new leadership, eliminates corruption and not the fake corruption that donald trump is trying to manufacture. >> on the first point jill made about the public really moving in the direction of those who want donald trump to be impeached and removed, now even

a fox news poll, which really enraged donald trump -- 51% have said that donald trump should not just be impeached, but also removed. that's up nine points since july. and that is an october 6 through 8 poll. this week -- or last week, you put out a really incredible piece. it might have been this week. it's all starting to run together. and it talked about, ryan, the overwhelming confirmation of the whistle-blower complaint that is the thing that is pushing donald trump toward impeachment. and you annotated it. it's brilliant. i hope people will read it. we'll put up it our social media as well. given all of the evidence that a country that was corrupt, the natural gas oligarchy of ukraine, which freed itself from russia but had a harder time freeing itself from corruption as everybody grabbed for control of the oil and gas -- you now have the american president and his lawyer attempting to corrupt ukraine. there is no other way to put it. there's a gangsterism to what you've annotated.

in your view -- it seems worse to nixon, i don't know what you think about that. but can you imagine that the public can understand that in a very simple way that could lead to an even higher percentage of americans saying, yes, this is the right thing to do to remove a president? >> absolutely. because i think it is much worse than nixon. this is really about compromising u.s. national security. it's about undermining an ally that has putin at its doorstep. so that's 45 million ukrainians. and the whistle-blower complaint says -- and it's accurately reflected in the transcript -- this is all donald trump wanted to talk to him about. he didn't want to talk to him about corruption. the word corruption's not even used in the transcript. it's just that he wanted to pressure a ukrainian ally, the president of ukraine, zelensky, to interfere in u.s. elections. i think that's a simple point that americans can't stand for, and as more of the facts become known, as president tribe mentioned, that number's probably only going to tick upward, not come downward. >> the likelihood is now that former ambassador yovanovitch has denied the white house and the state department and come

forward and gone ahead and spoken to congress, do you expect that other people involved, other people that were mentioned in that transcript, other people who may still work for the department of state and have to worry about william barr or retribution or whatever could be done to them or their pension being at risk, as andrew mccabe's was -- do you expect other people to come forward and testify? because with the impeachment of richard nixon, there were public hearings in which people did testify. >> i think the dam maybe has been broken by ambassador yovanovitch doing something very brave, and now we'll also see the eu ambassador, sondland, testifying next week. >> yep. >> and it seems to suggest that these are sitting u.s. officials, or still members of the state department, who are coming forward, plus also former officials. >> yeah. >> who are obviously speaking to places like the "washington post." and i think the republican senators have to be very worried about this. like the recent "washington post" article said something like they had over a dozen current and former u.s. officials who are giving them all this information because they were so alarmed by the

phone call. and now we even have more evidence. it wasn't just the phone call, it was a scheme prior to the phone call and after the phone call with rudy giuliani. so, i think there are multiple people who are u.s. officials, former u.s. officials, that will be testifying essentially against the president. >> but also, that means that the many, many people who were on that call -- donald trump presumably and william barr know who they were, so they all have to worry as well. >> i think they have to be worried. and i think they probably should be consulting lawyers as they navigate their way through to congress. >> and to go back to the way that these hearings are working, jill wine-banks -- and i love having you on who know how this works because we have to explain impeachment over and over. it's not automatic removal. it's like an indictment. in the case of richard nixon, the public indictment actually happened in the senate. those famous watergate hearings were senate hearings, not house hearings. what is the material difference between what we're seeing now coming out of house intel and the house judiciary committee and those historic senate watergate hearings? >> well, number one, the stonewalling that was done by

the nixon white house pales in comparison to what's going on now. now, there were perjury committed and there was subornation of perjury, which means the president and his top aides were telling people how to testify, to say things like, well, i don't really recall, i don't remember, even though they did. and of course, haldeman and ehrlichman and mitchell all lied when they testified before the senate. so, there was misleading and obstruction by them, but it's nothing compared to what's going on now. and i think ryan just mentioned something in his piece, and his piece is really wonderful and everybody should read it, but there is now -- maga now means make attorneys get attorneys. and that's what's happening now is everyone needs to get an attorney who has any possible connection to donald trump because they are all in trouble. and i think what we're going to

start seeing is a rush to get to congress, because you can't get to a prosecutor because they're controlled by barr, and they aren't going to do anything. but someone's going to have to get in, and congress can give immunity. >> yeah. >> and it's just like what happened with us. john dean came in and jeb mcgruder came in and they got deals for telling us what they knew about the corruption in the white house. and that's what's going to happen now. people need to protect themselves. >> yeah. >> aside from protecting democracy, and it's not just our national security, it's world security. >> absolutely. quickly, what's your pin? >> my pin is dominos with a four and a five because they're falling on 45. and i worried about almost a year ago thinking they were falling, but now, for sure, i think they're going to tumble fast, and joyce vance said it yesterday, she thought the dominos were falling, and that inspired today's pin. >> well, here we go. tick, tick, tick. jill wine-banks, ryan goodman, thank you both so much. thank you. >> thank you. >> and read ryan's piece.

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