on the phone, i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign. almost five hours later, an eternity in diplomat time, sondland texted back, bill, i believe you are incorrect about president trump's intentions. the president has been crystal clear. no quid pro quos of any kind. the president is trying to evaluate whether ukraine is truly going to adopt the transparency and reforms that president zelensky promised during his campaign. i suggest we stop the back and forth by text. well, we now have more details on what happened in those five long hours between sondland's reply. according to a person with knowledge of sondland's planned testimony, sondland will say that he called the president in the interim and that it was trump who was the source of his language that there was no quid pro quo. sondland will reportedly say that he relied on the president's assurances in good faith and passed these along to

taylor. the news was first reported by "the washington post" which reports that sondland's language in the text was relayed to him directly by trump in a phone call, according to a person familiar with his testimony. for "the washington post," he also plans to testify that he has no knowledge of whether the president was telling him the truth. that at that moment, it's only true that the president said it, not that it was the truth. well, joining me now to discuss, david corn, msnbc political analyst and co-author of russian roulette. cynthia oxney and paul butler, both former federal prosecutors and legal analysts. david? >> well -- >> your thoughts? >> this is a classic case of someone jumping off the ship before he believes the ship goes down because he's out there saying the president told me something. i don't know if it was true, and it makes it look like there's a conspiracy and i'm kind of didn't really know what was going on. there's a lot of what he says

that can be contradicted by facts. he's still in trouble. the ship may be going down, and it's far off -- far away fromju. into an ocean that's roiling and he has a long way to swim before he gets back to shore. this is not good for trump. if he and others start defying the white house and actually abiding by the law and testifying in front of congress charge. don mcgahn wouldn't testify. the white house has been trying to hold the line. nobody says anything. this guy is worrying about his own reputation now. he still wants to be a hotel magnate when this is all done and that's why he's doing this. >> before i go to eagles on this, sondland, if you talk to a lot of republican sources, and i've had republican sources say it to me, that the line is going to be no quid pro quo. that was the line that went out in their talking points. that's what everyone has been

saying. now what we're learning, it seems to me from sondland is that line was literally delivered to sondland by donald trump. the question being is that what he was being told to say as a cover story or was that the truth. he doesn't know the answer to that. >> bill taylor, the diplomat who this text is with is saying there's a quid pro quo happening here. he says there's a quid pro quo. once sondland goes to trump and says, hey, there's something happening here, trump says there's no quid pro quo. it's already happened. this is trump's cover story. it's again, this is gaslighting. if you read the quasi transcript that came out, can you give me missiles, i'd like you to do me a favor. >> so there is a quid pro quo. >> the -- >> we're staring at it -- it's right in our face. so sondland will show if he testifies that trump was reacting to thed before it became public. >> the important thing being, right, the though is what seems

to be the quo, right? >> quo equals though. >> first you, cynthia. on the question of whether or not the white house can actually stop mr. sondland from saying this to congress, whether he can stop him from testifying, because isn't it the law that if he is subpoenaed to testify, he must show up because others have pretended that's not the law. >> he has to show up. and what's happened in the past is people have been -- haven't wanted to show up and they've hidden behind the talking points of trump and then they don't show up and congress hasn't done enough about it to force it. so fortunately, ambassador yovanovitch who is a strong woman just said screw you guys. i'm going. takes a woman, man. i'm going. stop me and strolled herself right in the front hall and dared them to try and stop her and they didn't. on this -- you know, on

sondland, before you get carried away that he's some great truth teller and is going to solve the day, this guy is not a great witness. he gives us some stuff on trump but he's still pretending that he didn't know what happened. complete mystery to him what happened. >> even though -- of course he knew. they were discussing it in june and july. >> and taylor, the ambassador who is the only one that seems to understand what they're talking about is wrong says this can't be done. i quit. he uses the language that this is completely wrong. he says it directly to sondland. by the way, this is part of the defense apparently. it was not a quid pro -- it was a quid pro quo but not a corrupt one. this is the person who is familiar with sondland's testimony that his testimony will be that it was a quid pro quo, but not a corrupt one. i'm going to go to you on this one. is there such thing as a noncorrupt quid pro quo, legally? >> remember the ukraine. they are very vulnerable to russia. they depend on u.s. military aid

for their survival as a nation state. and so when the president says, if you don't help me with my campaign, then i'm not going to give you the funds that you need to maintain your country to maintain your security, to not get taken over by the russians. that's a corrupt quid pro quo. one question is, why is -- why is he doing this? he is the ambassador to the european community. ukraine is not part of the european union so why did trump outsource this task of deal with the ukraines, of trying to get this, again, trying to get help for his political campaign to sondland? apparently he knew sondland would get the job done and that -- i totally agree with cynthia that sondland is not going to be a hero in this impeachment.

>> just one other piece here that this is, according to "the washington post" reporting. the call between sondland and trump lasted less than five minutes. trump appeared to be in a foul mood according to the person who spoke to the post. i'm not sure how that's different than normal. and that also the nbc news reporting on this as of last night is that the individual with knowledge of this testimony said sondland didn't doubt the president or he wouldn't have reassured taylor. but the source said sondland had no independent knowledge of whether or not there was a quid pro quo and military aid was being withheld by the administration. but we know it was withheld and that donald trump's acting chief of staff did it. >> the trump card here, no pun intended here, is rudy giuliani. and sondland was in touch with rudy giuliani. giuliani says he was more in touch and sondland says he was less in touch. after 30 seconds of talking to rudy giuliani, you can't sniff out that something is up here? rudy giuliani was obsessed with the biden thing. now trump was obsessed with the

server, the whole conspiracy theory that ukraine somehow had the democratic servers and the russians hadn't attacked and it was the dnc that hacked themselves. it would take us two hours to go through this. giuliani was obsessed with getting biden. so it's almost inconceivable that sondland had any series of conversations with giuliani and that did not come up. and so now he's playing dumb. i still think he's not a hero, but he's a really bad witness on the trump side. >> he's a bad witness but even in the transcript we have evidence he did know. >> bill taylor telling him. >> he talks about how he spoke with zelensky and he gets it. and trump wants the deliverables. so that's in the transcript. let me say one thing about this quid pro quo question. you could have a perfectly lawful quid pro quo. it could be, you have to do this for your country and you have to do this for our country, right?

that's -- that's a legal -- that's what foreign policy is all about. i have no problem with that. the problem with this one is, you have to do something for me and my campaign, for donald trump, in return. and there is no way that could ever be legal. >> i want to get in on that more. paul butler, we're talking essentially about conspiracy. that's the point here. that this is allegedly a conspiracy between rudy giuliani, these two nefarious sort of guys out in the ether that he was working for and with to try to dig up this dirt on joe biden's son. >> make up this dirt. not dig up. make up. >> you're absolutely right and that's a fair correction. >> and apparently bringing in this sort of faux diplomat, mr. sondland, who is really a trump crony brought in to be a diplomat. and the people being excised from it, the people who wouldn't play ball were the real diplomats, the ambassador. the career diplomat wouldn't do it. if people didn't play ball, they were out of it. is that in and of itself the

fact that career diplomats who knew better -- taylor and ms. yovanovitch, were being pushed out the door? is that proof they were trying to just keep it to the people willing to be part of the conspiracy? >> it is certainly consciousness of guilt and proof of the manner they were doing it. >> let me say this about conspiracies. the more people in the experience and the more people with big mouths and big egos less likely it is to stay in. and in this one, what do we have? we have trump. big ego. big mouth. giuliani, big ego, big mouth. sondland has a business to protect. and he's willing to throw trump under the bus but not willing to admit his own. it won't be long until giuliani is pointing at sondland and sondland is pointing at giuliani and that's the way this will unravel. >> he busted the mafia back in new york when he -- >> or the southern district of new york, assuming he's now in jeopardy. paul butler, i'm going to go out with this with you. giuliani and donald trump had a

lunch. sort of seen as a show of support because there is a concern now that everyone will start trying to protect themselves. that people will start talking because they fear their only legal liability and the only person that give someone up higher than himself is donald trump. >> yes. if giuliani is relying on trump's loyalty, giuliani might want to talk to michael cohen. he might want to talk to sessions. he might want to talk to a whole bunch of people who apparently believe that trump would protect them but when push came to shove, trump looks out for donald trump. and, in fact, we have these associates of giuliani who have been indicted. and they've got this weird series of connections. and sometimes giuliani's giants, other times they're helping him with his cases. other times they're donating lots of money to concerns like

trump's superpacs and inauguration committee. other times they're broke, they don't have a lot of money. so it's really weird like where these guys are getting this money. it seems extremely nefarious. and if they are that tight with giuliani, and if they're exposed, then a prosecutor is going to say, you want to make a deal? give the stuff on giuliani and then if giuliani gets caught up, prosecutors are going to go to giuliani. you want to make a deal, give us the big guy. >> we're going to stop it. we're going to take a quick commercial break and pay the bills. we'll be right back and continue this conversation next.

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i feel pressure when i talk to your foreign minister. he pressures me all the time. it's totally appropriate. right? isn't that right? yeah, it's totally right. go ahead and say it. you can admit it. it's okay. it's completely right. nations do this. nations work together and they say, boy, goodness gracious. if you can help me with x, we'll help you achieve y. this is what partnerships do. it's win/win. >> no, that's not true. the folks at trump world seem to be at odds about quid pro quos. secretary of state saying it's totally appropriate whereas donald trump denies any quid pro quo. and now breaking overnight, we have a "washington post" reporting that gordon sondland, the u.s. ambassador to the eu will testify to congress on thursday that he worked with rudy giuliani to get ukraine to

investigate, quote/unquote corruption in exchange for a white house meeting. according to a person familiar with sondland's planned testimony it was a quid pro quo, but not a corrupt one. david, cynthia, paul back with me. david, this idea that this is how it works, you've covered a lot of international news and the way that it works. this is not how it works. >> no, no, and cynthia mentioned this earlier. you can have a legitimate quid pro quo in foreign policy. you send troops here. it's easier for you to do that and we'll replenish your supplies or we'll make a call to this other country on your behalf. it's policy. it's trading policy. it's not trading political favors and digging up dirt on your enemy. so pompeo -- >> making up dirt. >> making up dirt. >> so that's where this is completely wrong and it also might violate civil laws. it also might lead to a conspiracy. >> to your very point of making up conspiracies because the two things they want, and we talk a

lot about the dirt they wanted dug up or pretended or made up about the bidens, the other thing they want is to prove a conspiracy theory. this is almost like donald trump saying he was going to send investigators to hawaii saying he was going to prove birtherism which was equally crazy, which is true. he wanted to use the resources of another country. their version of william barr to go after and try to pretend this conspiracy theory was true. this is now -- >> this is why he's going to be impeached. >> absolutely. and i guess the question then is, if there is a real quid pro quo, which is policy for policy, if this is now policy for favors for me, including making up information about an opponent and also pretending a conspiracy theory is real, is that a crime? >> yes. that's definitely a crime. >> what is the crime? >> first of all, it's an abuse of power which is -- it's basically all we need. it's an abuse of power. it's the cover-up with taking this call and hiding it on the supersecret server. and it's obstruction. it's also a campaign finance

violation. you're saying, i want something of value. i want you to make this up. even if nothing ever comes back, i want you to churn and make it look like something. and that's going to help me and my campaign. that's something of value for which michael cohen is in jail. >> it is similar to the stormy daniels situation which was that what donald trump wanted in getting these payments done to stormy daniels was assistance for his campaign to tamp down what would have been a negative story. that's the thing that's of value. in this case, the thing that's of value is if they can find somewhere, a hat to hang their conspiracy theory on, and if they can dig up dirt on a potential opponent, that's the thing about it. is that what gets us -- the thing that frustrated us about the mueller investigation was they couldn't put a fine point on what the crime would be of the obstruction. >> one thing mueller did say was that soliciting oppo research from a foreign national is a

violation of federal criminal law. he wasn't sure he could prove criminal intent in the russia investigation. now everyone is on notice that it's illegal. it looks like trump's defense is going to be, well, i was asking just that they take a look at corruption and investigate corruption and, by that, he doesn't mean he will say his own political concerns. he means corruption that was going on in the ukraine. for the campaign finance violation, there does have to be a quid pro quo, but if there is, it makes it look even sleazier because then it's an obvious shakedown. and for that, these text messages are super incriminating evidence because not only do we have the ambassador saying, as i said to you on the telephone, it's crazy that we're holding up military aid in exchange for you helping out donald trump with his campaign. as i said to you on the

telephone, meaning they had an earlier conversation about this, when apparently nobody contra dicted the ambassador to say there's not a quid pro quo. as you pointed out, joy, it took five hours later before they get back and say, oh, the president says there's not a quid pro quo. therefore, it's not a quid pro quo. in that same call, though, trump said i'm not asking ukraine for anything, and we know that's a bold-faced lie. he's doing everything to get the ukrainians to investigate the bidens and to investigate the origins of the russian investigation based on that bizarre conspiracy theory that the ukraine had something to do with that investigation into donald trump. just to be clear, the russian investigation started because the fbi and the justice department had concerns that donald trump was a double agent, that he was working for the russians. that's why the russian investigation started. >> i want to state for one moment because there's also this

idea of the unindicted co-conspirator. what we're hearing paul describe, sounds like a conspiracy to commit a campaign finance violation because the only possible beneficiary of this fake dirt and of this insane conspiracy theory would be donald trump and his campaign. now you have these four men. you handed me this indictment here. lev parnas and igor fruman and two other men who are now indicted. do we now have a michael cohen-like situation where the two people -- the three people not names here but who are involved are rudy giuliani, donald trump -- well, at least rudy giuliani and donald trump at minimum. and william barr who is also names in the transcrypt as saying work with giuliani and are those three in legal jeopardy? >> giuliani looks like he's in legal jeopardy. trump isn't in legal jeopardy because he can't be indicted

while he's president. something that has to come out on thursday like a tip to see how much sondland is really cooperating is, does he come in with his documents? so far he hasn't come in with his. the text messages that we have are from volker. we don't have anything from sondland. and they're all playing around on this whatsapp and there's text messages and all kinds of information. if he's really coming forward, we'll see a lot of documents. if he's just playing footsy to try to get himself off and throw trump under the bus, he's going to come with no documents. >> we talk about the two favors trumps asks for. biden and proving the conspiracy theory. if you prove the conspiracy theory, know what that means? it means the russians did not attack. this is about his effort to deny that the russians ever attacked the election. so he's trying to get putin and the russians off scot-free. that's what he's using u.s. military assistance as leverage for. it's crazy. >> what do you want to do that for? to get rid of sanctions so

russia can once again do business and get back in the g8. he has said as much. cynthia will be back later. david corn, paul butler, you guys are great. enjoy the rest of your sunday. coming up -- the deadly consequences of donald trump's national security decisions, and that is next. leave no man behind. or child. or other child. or their new friend. or your giant nephews and their giant dad. or a horse. or a horse's brother, for that matter. the room for eight, 9,000 lb towing ford expedition.

it is day five of turkey's inivation into northern syria launched after donald trump pulled u.s. troops out of the area and endorsed turkey's military operation against the kurds. there is now evidence that arab militias who turkey claims are syrians trying to take back their land have been committing atrocities against the kurds. nbc news chief foreign correspondent robert engel has this report. >> reporter: as turkish forces are driving forward, making their biggest advance yet against u.s. allies, the kurds, we saw for the first time alleged atrocities carried out by turkish backed arab militias. this video today appears to show arab militias executing a kurd

by the roadside as they shout allahu akbar and proudly saying film me, film me. multiple u.s. officials say the video and photographs appear genuine. the turkish-backed militias which u.s. officials say include al qaeda and isis supporters, are also apparently taking prisoners. kurdish officials say turkey is on a campaign to ethnically cleanse kurds off their land. >> turkey is defending its operation saying its targets are kurdish fighters who turkey designated as terrorists. the situation on the ground is deteriorating rapidly. joining me is colonel wilkerson, former chief of staff to secretary of state colon powell. i wonder what you make of the fact that this decision was made by the president without consulting his national security team. >> funny you should ask that,

joy. esper and milley have said one contradicting the president of the united states. not a single u.s. soldier or marine have moved. they've moved a little but they're still in syria. so trump's statement that everybody is gone is not nonsense. they're not gone. i don't know whether this is the military using its very powerful bureaucracy to fight the president. and its effect for allies in the region to fight the president, but they haven't moved anywhere essentially. >> and they're still under fire. >> they're still under fire. the 50 special forces group that was very close actually was fired on by the turks. and i think intentionally to send a signal. i want to back up for a moment and i want to put this in strategic perspective. the president says he wants to pull out of the middle east. he wants to end stupid wars, endless wars. i agree with that 100%. well, there's one in yemen that the president is backing to the hilt that is a humanitarian

disaster. he is sending more troops, more u.s. troops to saudi arabia, the perpetrator of this war in yemen which tell the mohammad bin salman you don't even have to negotiate with iran. he started to do a lull negotiating after he saw the president not react to the strike on his oil facility. so he's actually reinforcing muhammad bohammad bin salman an him, i've got your back. prosecute, with my help and my support and my military support in yemen. you can prosecute this war. mr. president, if you want to stop the u.s. participation in reputation diminishing, horrible, brutal wars in the middle east, this is your first one to get out of. the congress has voted. it voted. it passed a law and you vetoed it. if the congress were courageous, it would override that veto, but with the republicans, of course, it can't. but that's the statement. if our impeaching donald trump right now i'd impeach him for violating the constitution of

the united states, pursuing an illegal war. >> if you try to think of what would be the connection between this abject support for saudi arabia and all they do and this abject support, one phone call is all it takes for donald trump to do what turkey wants, is that -- is business. is the business that he -- >> the transactional president. >> not business for the nation. business for donald trump himself, his own economic interests, with erdogan, we have a huge hotel interest which he gets a license fee for and he himself has said saudi arabia pays in cash. >> this is a huge strategic dilemma for the united states and for europe. turkey is the most powerful member of nato outside the united states. the most powerful ground force in europe. turkey is vacillating right now. is it going to remain a member of nato or not? so there's a strategic reason for talking to erdogan. he won't be there forever. there's a strategic reason for keeping the relationship with the turkish military. but that doesn't mean you have

to authorize everything that they want to do when they want to do it. you use your good offices in your power, your compelance not to get dirt on joe biden but to effect a situation that benefits all of your interests. and you have to deal with damascus, too. the kurds were working out a deal with assad in damascus. a deal not unlike they worked out in baghdad, the iraqi kurds worked out in baghdad. that's to have some autonomy. right now the best part of iraq is the northern part where the kurds are. baghdadis go to sulmonia to vaxvax vacation. assad will be takie ining advan of that and won't want to talk to them or give them anything. so this is the most unwise, inept, incompetent diplomatic team i've ever seen at work in washington. and that's saying something. >> let me quickly play you from fox news sunday this morning. this is the defense secretary mr. esper and what he's talking about with u.s. forces.

take a listen. >> now what we're facing is, u.s. forces in a -- trapped between a syrian russian army moving north to take on the turkish army moving south. i spoke with the national security team yesterday. we all talked on the phone. i've talked to the president, and he is concerned, and so last night, he directed that we begin a deliberate withdrawal of u.s. forces from the northern part of syria. >> you have that and also these pictures of empty fields where isis forces used to be held where they've potentially escaped. now this is a national security crisis for europe, the united states and u.s. troops. >> it's worse than that. there are probably 40,000 family members with about 12,000 isis. and we've highlighted 50 or very politically, bad for trump, if they should escape and be on tv somewhere, for example. so we've complicated this situation majorly because the guard force if you will for the bulk of these people were our

kurdish allies. so now we're looking at -- and trump is saying that isis is defeated is just poppycock. isis has metastasized. it's in sudan, nigeria, eritrea and it's turning into an al qaeda-like outfit which is very dangerous. they have a global capability. they can strike anywhere. yes, we and the iranians and syrian main forces defeated the caliphate but we haven't even captured ali akbar baghdadi, the osama bin laden of isis. trump is dealing in a dream world of his own political making. >> it helps to have some experience in the world and with foreign policy if you'll be president. and we're seeing that now. colonel lawrence wilkerson, always great to talk with you. and coming up -- the chief law enforcement officer of the united states is ripping down the wall between church and state because, of course. that's next. urclean,♪

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the fact is that no secular creed has emerged capable of performing the role of religion. this is not decay. this is organized destruction. secularists and their allies have marshalled all the forces of mass communication, popular culture, the entertainment industry and academia in an unremitting assault on religion

and traditional values. >> in a speech at notre dame law school, attorney general william barr blamed violence, drug abuse and mental violence on secularists in society's lack of christian values. this is not just any trump land official. barr is the chief law enforcement officer whose job is to carry out the rule of law and uphold the constitution, including the constitutional mandate of separation of church and state. fairly and equitably in a country of more than 320 million people who are not all, or even mostly evangelical right wing countries. back with me is colonel lawrence wilkerson and msnbc legal analyst cynthia auxley. this is william barr about what he calls the campaign to destroy the traditional moral order. here it is. >> along with the wreckage of the family, we are seeing record levels of depression and mental

illness. dispirited young people, soaring suicide rates, increasing numbers of angry and alienated young males. an increase in senseless violence and a deadly drug epidemic. suffice it to say, the campaign to destroy the traditional moral order has coincided, and i believe has brought with it immense suffering and misery. >> is there something wrong with that being the mandate and that being the charge of the attorney general of the united states? >> right. yes. the attorney general of the united states is not a catholic priest or bishop. he can have that opinion. i don't happen to share it. i think he's looking for the good old days back when white men were in charge and women knew their place and there's nobody in color in charge of anything. and i'm sure he misses those days, but that's not his job as the attorney general. on the scheme of things he's

done wrong at attorney general, i view this as small, right? like, for instance, stop lying to us. that is more important to me. i would rather he does apply to be the president of notre dame, although i don't think the jesuits would want him. stop lying to us. stop turning the justice department to an arm of trump's personal legal defense bill. stop, you know supporting all these policies that are anti-christian in my opinion, like, for example, putting people in cages. that to me is a larger problem than whether or not he gives a speech in a couple hundred law students outside the main stream. >> he's also -- i'm going to play one more bite and then have a question for the colonel. he's also pushing and he's at a catholic college so it makes sense to push for more religious schools. this is one more bite. >> we cannot have a moral renaissance unless we succeed in passing to the next generation our faith and values in full

vigor. the times are hostile to this. public agencies, including public schools are becoming secularized and increasingly actively promoting moral relativism. if ever there was a need for a resurgence of catholic education and more generally religiously affiliated schools, it is today. >> and i ask you this question specifically on this because i have a question for you on this because there is this under the radar battle that's been for decades by people who want to put their children in catholic schools, who want to also have a public -- they want to also have a tax break for it. even if those schools seem to or appear to exclude people of color. that's been a sort of nagging issue among people in the far religious right for a long time. we now have an attorney general who has vowed to make his -- as long as he's attorney general, he says the department of justice will be at the forefront of this effort to fight for the most cherished values of religious freedom. that says to me as somebody who

has watched william barr fighting to undo that -- it's not about -- >> it's not about religious freedom. >> he seems to be saying, i promise i'm going to do that. >> it's not about religious freedom. in that speech he also was criticizing the new jersey law that requires new jersey public textbooks to be open about the fact that certain people in history were gay. for example, bayard ruston. that was part of his identity, and it was hidden. and new jersey has said, no, we're going to be accurate about people. and he is railing against that particular law. so it's not about religious freedom. it's about everybody has to adhere to what he thinks and, by the way, they should all get a tax for it. >> we've had a previous attorney general who covered all of the nude statues, classics he felt

were offensive. we've had people with this same ideation before, but you were mentioning to me in the break this is actually bleeding over into the military. >> it is. when i was watching barr, i was thinking of torque in a business suit. what's happening is a reflection of this white male, i yearn for the past attitude. it is evangelical pastors, chaplcha chaplains who are proselytizing for jesus christ in the armed forces when people are very vulnerable at basic training where they're baptizing hundreds of them or whether it's at ranger school where they catch them when they are very, very vulnerable and get them to be soldiers for jesus. i'm not making these frass up. these are the phrases these chaplains use. we even have one chaplain who has said publicly in uniform that soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines do not owe of there

all allegiance to the constitution. they owe it to jesus christ their savior. you can sit and tell them how many muslims are in there. we have wicans in the ranks. we have -- what's the group -- jedi knights in the ranks. not a lot of them, but the constitution says all of their rights are supposed to be protected. >> for the audience, this is a 70-plus percent christian country. but only 25.4% of americans are evangelical christians. main line protestants, 14%. catholics, of which mr. barr is one, 20.8%. so this is not a majority view that he has on this evangelical side. it's just his own view but he's got a lot of power. we'll be right back after this quick por. thank you colonel lawrence wilkerson and cynthia. d cynthia. we're oscar mayer deli fresh and you may know us from...

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>> whoa. like you i am a little stun and heartbroken. >> good morning and welcome back to "a.m. joy." shepard smith known as shep, one of the first hired as a conservative network that hit the air way in 1956. you can hear the surprise came amid increase attention between shep and the conservative host who dominated the fox air ways. shep was a criticism of donald trump. one of a handful to challenged the chief. >> it is crazy what we are watching everyday. it is absolutely crazy. he keeps repeating ridiculous throw away lines that are not true at all and sort of avoiding this issue of russia as we are

some kind of fools for asking the question. >> is he requested it and he would own the shutdown? he disseminates fake news that is. the wall is going up. thank china on the tariffs. russia broprobe is a witch hunt. it is endless. news of shep's departure came one day after the new york times report trump's attorney general william barr met with murdoch behind closed doors. joining me now tiffany cross. president charlie sykes and gabe sherman. gabe, i got to go to you first.

were you as shock that shep smith is out? >> yes, i was shocked because he kept it closely held according to my sources of the highest level at fox news that he was negotiating his exit. i was not surprised. his skew with tucarlson broughto the attention that he was the only voice that's not channelling the state tv line at fox news. really when they went back and forth, shep was told to directed to stop attacking tucker, really the network have chosen the protrump side over him. he was basically you know those odd man out. this was not surprising that he would choose to take the exit. i want to make one point joy that's lost in all this

coverage. shep smith did real news on his program. let's not conflate of the robust journalism, some of the twitter reaction due to his departure signals the death of news at fox is kind of a joke. fox news -- >> oh, i think we lost him. >> roger ailes created it. yes, they're losing a talented record. >> i think you were making that you were saying there was not a lot of robust news around him. is that what you were saying? >> the point that was made tiffany abouts t shep verses tucker, let me play a little bit of that. take a listen. >> our partisan to support president trump was asked about the legal assessment.

when he was asked he said unchallenged. the judge is a fool. attacking our colleague who's here to offer legal assessments on our air in our work home is repugnant. >> repugnant? i am not clear if that was you or me but someone is repugnant. >> when a host on any channel including this one pretends that the answer is obvious? >> he's not very partisan at all. i try to think up anyone on that channel who does seem to ever so often raise their hands up to donald trump. you have been on the fox news and you no at the atmosphere there. is this a surprise to you that shep smith did not last in an environment where it is all trump all the time. everyone is not just partisan,

they're really part of the personality of donald trump and his communications. >> it surprises me that shep lasted so long. he never changed. the network as gabe pointed out, the network around him changed. i am shocked that he lasted for two decades. he was bullied there. at the end of the day that you read some of the backstage things, it was a bully campaign. i wonder if melania trump is going to be best at this situation. he was treated poorly. i used to do fox news and i made a conscious decision not to do the network anymore. they do play a lot of games with their guests and you come on you will have a different perspective. they're talking about midterms and the topic goes to north korea and nobody told you anything until the prompter comes up. let's have at it. i can't imagine what they did to an openly gay man who's honest

and focusing on facts and supporting. they bullied him repeatedly on air. for tucker carlson to say he's not partisan, that's skiconsist of the level of truth coming from that network. >> i am fascinated. to meet for a long time does not seem conducive. let's listen to this. this is donald trump responding to shep's resignation. take a listen. >> i don't know, is he leaving? it is a shame. is he leaving because of bad ratings? if he's leaving, i am sure because he had bad rating. he had the worst rating on fox. >> this is the man in his own mind owns fox news that fox news

is there to protect and defend him and the polls should be manipulated to look good. that's his attitude to fox news. paul ryan claiming they want to change the orientation of the network away from donald trump. it does not surprise you that shep is gone and are you surprised that he lasted this long? >> no, it does not surprise me at all. i am surprised that he lasted this long. a lot of the viewers at fox are trump's base. they are one and the same. fox viewers are trump's base. another issue is that i know when i was a guest on fox, i got the most vicious and hateful e-mails and twitter messages and any basically any platform that i operated on was blooded with viral rhetoric directed at me and a lot of it was extremely

racist. and so i know for shep smith, i heard that he gotten significant amounts of that feedback for being openly critical of the president and for just demanding that an area of facts occur. so i can't imagine not only having to deal with both the friction inside from your colleagues who want to create state tv but dealing with viewer frs t s from the backlash as well. >> eric baldwin, thank you, as a long time media observer. chris wallace on his sunday show, and shep smith did take the chance to get that kind of backlash needed upon them when they attempted to see with open eyes in washington. where fox is going is a harder

term, hard core defense of donald trump and anyone who's trying to change that, it seems they're going to fail. >> this sends a clear message of everyone at fox news. you may want to think again. >> occasionally there is criticism of trump's policies. you can't tell fundamental truth about donald trump on fox news. you can't talk about how he's a liar, a racist and clearly an unstable individual. now shep was not doing that on a daily bases. he was certainly tipped to a key line which is trump lies about everything all the time. now, shep's show represented kind of a window within fox news into reality and into a fact-based world. it only lasted 60 minutes a day. that window had now been shut. it is trump's propaganda around the clock. i am very dubious about whose

publ publ publiculation on fox. he announces on national television of his resignation. he goes out the side door and never speak to ts to the newsro. s t it was very chaotic. we learned something of the trump's year. everything is a conspiracy and everything is on the table. the united states' attorney applied pressure to get someone fired from a tv show. >> we'll look at the timeline right now. this is shepard smith/tucker carlson feud began on september 25. same wednesday, barr met with

murdoch, trump rpraises many fo hosts but not smith. >> "fox and friends" they treat us good. tucker has been very good. i have to say. and the legendary sean hannity and laura ingraham, and the great liu dobbs, how about greg? greg used to hate me and now he's good. i am just rattling some names up. they're terrific people. >> i want to get into the attorney general barr and i meant shep resigns. if i did said somethiy somethin i meant shep resigns. you are only allowed to have one upon on right wing media. whoever the president of the

united states is king, they can't do anything wrong. it was like that when george w. bush was president. it is more like that with donald trump. you written a lot about this sort of cowardness of republicans in congress who always seems to be constitutionallist and have these values and now they have been reduced to tweeting bible verses and being vague whether or a nation should be allowed in our elections. everyo does somebody like shep among people that are republican politicians. they know you can't win. >> well, let me point out though it did not used to be like this. you used to be able to criticize president bush. the culted personality and the

insistence that you must praise the president all the time. one of the reasons of course is you are not seeing any courage on the part of elected officials is they know where the base is. fox knows where its audience is and increasingly the conservative consumers of media want conservative media to be a safe space and what's going on interesting to watch is as trump's behavior becomes more in defensible and embarrassing. the pressure to defend him is going to be more intense. the lack of tolerance for voices on fox news who may be descending is going to be more and more intense. so what is interesting is that fox news had been an alternative reality for some time. there were these windows and doors where fact-based information may get into a portion of that audience. that's why shep was important. it was small in terms of the

overall picture of what fox was doing. that door is now closed. >> let me play a little bit of congressman. doing an interview of a friend of the show for his radio show. he asked him whether or not this meeting very interesting time m meeting william barr and murdoch should be investigated. >> we want to know what the general of the united states doing to meet with fox. what purpose could that possibly be especially in light of the fact that this is happening exactly the same time the president of the united states is saying fox news is not being kind enough to him. >> gabe, do you have any reporting on any connections between this meeting with

william barr and murdoch and the exit of shep smith? >> that's a great question, joy. >> i did a lot of reporting. sources close to shep smith told me earlier for the weekend that the meeting was not connected with his departure. i am continuing to look into it. the time is very suspect. i do know that shepard smith hired a high-powered lawyer weeks ago to begin negotiating his exit from fox news. that was in motion well before bill barr sat down with murdoch. i think the fact that meeting took place at all is news worthy and worthy to be explained. republicans created fox news so that watergate would not happen again and now we are on the verge of impeachment of a republican president and we have his attorney general sitting down with the head of the right wing news network. that smells all kinds of bad and i think fox news for their own

credibility whatever shreds that's left and that's not much. owes a meeting of what the general is doing with fox. >> the purpose of fox news in theory will be defend donald trump against impeachment. you now seem the exit of the guy who most frequently booked, critic of donald trump, someone who laid out and explain the legal jeopardy that donald trump is in, the most sort of el conceptually which is the judge. he explains in plain language of why what donald trump has done is legally problematic or leading the impeachment. when shep is not there, his booking gets reduced in number? >> without question. clearly he'll have to now rely

on his relationships with other anchors and producers to get air time. i think that's a great point that'll be interesting over the next days and weeks how many appearances the judge will get on the network. >> or less. >> if we pull back for a second and look at the danger in journalism. when fox first started, how they attracted so many viewers, on 9/11, they were one of the few networks showing people jumping into the building. it was yellow journalism at best. you do have to find a way to penetrate that layer of ignorance that these trump's sycophant have. >> i think there are people on both sides of the divide who

pays no attention to what happens in politics even though it impacts their life. fox dominates their time. when you ask people how they get this in the newspaper. i wish for more people of what reporters doce when th. without that i think it leads to less intellectually curious people casting ballots and having an opinion on what's happening with our country. you see that at the town hall these congressmen defending their stance. a lot of them are getting their nof information from fox news. i didn't know the mueller report said anything bad. very consistent of how dictators come to power. >> right. you can't trust the news, you can only trust me. >> how they stay in power. >> tiffany was absolutely right.

it is unfortunate that people don't have time to take in the fueler context. this week had shep not resign, the new york times is being criticized for heating the same scenario that got us where we were in 2016. from this pretend organization that's looking out for government corruption but who pauses on the whole conspiracy theory including his being on pushing conspiracy theory of russia not attacking our elections but it is ukraine. you have the britt media, i don't know if it is a sense of fear of challenging of a president that's becoming more autocrat autocratic. you have fox losing one or two anchors who ever challenged the president. all you got is chris callwallac.

how does that impact us as we go into impeachment? >> it is such an important institution like the new york times and not learning any lessons from 2016. peter swiezer wrote this factitious book on hillary clinton at "the new york times" marketing it was the most important book. every news organization pointed out that book was riddled with errors. now here we are in 2019 low and be hold, you open the new york times writing everything the bidens and wrote an entire column of the family cashing in on their politicians, their political roots and trump were never mentioned and his kids

were never mentioned. "the times" is not going to learn any lesson from 2016. >> yes, quickly, your assessment of where we stand now with a shepless fox. it is important that gabe pointed out, there is not a lot of it there. now there is one guy left and maybe he gets on ever so often. we are going into impeachment and a good chunk of television news audience won't have any idea. >> i think his departure will have a chilling effect. you will be less likely to push back. if you are a judge of polotoni, you wonder the effect on him. will he want to push back the way he's pushing back against false information. that's the other thing. fox reverberates beyond just the

fox audience. that's another point we don't spend enough time on. the stories they report had influence beyond their audience. >> charlie, i will give you the last word on this. are you still a republican, my friend? it does not sound like republican party has much of a way out if fox is shutting the door. >> that's the key point is that you have a huge portion of the electorate that's going to be living in an alternative universe. they'll not hear the same facts or same narrative and you know to your question that you asked me a little earlier. obviously you know that's going to play into how republicans react. if they get fed back, all of the information and propaganda from fox and political base. they're not going to move on all of this. i think the lesson of the shep smith in the story is that they're really is no business model. there is no place for trump's skeptical voices in the

conservative media. that's going to intensifntensif. as you go into the impeachment process in the 2020 election. it is certainly bad for this public discourse where you would hope you would have an informed electorate where we could share the same facts and information and values and that's certainly not the case. >> will they even show them or see it. that's the reason that fox created. they may be able to serve their purpose. >> you guys are great, thank you very much, more "a.m. joy" after the break. e "a.m. joy" after the break. know what i mean? so, i switched. to always discreet boutique. its shape-hugging elastic threads smooth out the area that people notice most. so it fits better than depend. and, the super absorbent core turns liquid to gel.

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we may very well call some of the same witnesses or of the same witnesses in public hearing as well. we want to make sure we meet the needs of the investigation and not give the president towards his legal minions the opportunity to tailor their testimonies in some case to fabricate to suit their interests. >> i have intelligence chairman schiff's hearing are driving donald trump straight into the jaws of impeachment. this week another deposition may only make things worse. from the state department, ambassador to the eu, gordon n

sondland is expected to testimony. he'll say he had no idea why military assistance was withheld from ukraine and he would lie on trump's asursurances that theres no quid pro quo. congressman, it is great to see you. >> great to see you, joy. >> take me to a call. i believe you were onto the house democratic caucus from speaker nancy pelosi. this was on friday. take a listen. >> i have said before trump himself is not worthy of impeachment because it is divisive to the country but our koou constitution is worth it and our republic is worth it. do you sense the congress believe the judiciary and the impeachment hearing committee

have a full and solid case of impeachment right now? >> we have so much in front of us that would merits impeachment. i think we want to make sure we are getting all the facts because every single day, joy, you see this and it is as travesty to our values and constitution. everyday more evidence comes out that corroborates the president abuse the office of the president which belongs to the american people and betrays our national security by asking a foreign country to interfere our elections and withhold military aide. everyday we are seeing more and more evidence of that. >> we know there are up come depositions to take place. fiona hill and gordon sondland

and brechbuhl, a counselor to the state department and bill taylor who's the ambassador to ukraine. those are all on the dock ketel mar docket, do you expect those people will show? >> sondland is supposed to appear on thursday under subpoena. he could not testify. let's remember that sondland who's the u.s. ambassador to the eu was a millionaire donor to the trump campaign. that's an important thing to remember. th it is not like i think we'll get everything from sondland. he's going to say when bill taylor who's the acting to ukraine. when taylor texted him in text

messages that we have now seen that taylor said this is you know, this is very dangerous to withhold military aide for in exchange for information that's going to help trump's political campaign. sondland is going to say in that four-hour delay between when taylor sent that text and when sondland replied, sondland called president trump and president trump said oh this is not a quid pro quo. joy, it is important that your listeners know there is no requirement for it to be a quid pro quo. this is president announcing to an ally who desperately need you assistance and he wants something to be done. those critical words where he says do us a favor though. do us a favor though. he's waiting for military aide, president zelensky wants a meeting with the united states. they need help with russia.

and you know this is a very, very dangerous situation for ukraine. the president has now made it clear. in the earlier part of the call with zelensky, they're going to give aide but he needs something in return. he does not need to say this is a quid pro quo. there are several instances where i think coming out to the testimony according to chairman schiff, instances of quid pro quo. i think the real they think for people to know is the president is using the office for his own personal gain to encourage a foreign country to dig up dirt on his political rivals for 2020. that's unacceptable. it is a betrayal of our constitution. it is a very, very sad day for america that our republican colleagues, most of them don't seem to be able to admit. this is absolutely unacceptable. >> i want to change gears for one moment. william barr had it in meeting.

it is not clear on what with rupert murdoch which is expected to be kind of the center gravity of trump's defense leading to impeachment. does the judiciary committee had any interests in or plan to talk to william barr subpoenaed him to come down or call him to come to congress or talk to you all about what it is he discussed with the head of this news network. >> we have as you know many things to talk to bill barr about. we are looking at those latest things. the key here is bill barr has not been acting as the attorney general for the united states. he's been acting for the attorney general for donald trump. for bill barr, first of all, he was named by donald trump in the call with president trump skelet zelensky, he talked to rudy giuliani and bill barr. why was donald trump asking bill barr to intervene in this is

stance with the president of united states. now we have fox news piece as well and we know bill barr has been in italy and trying to cook up some different stories that would help the president and again joy, i just have to say i am heartbroken that we are at this stage where there are so many wrongs being done and so much abuse, the office of the president for personal gain, this is not about donald trump trying to get something from other country that benefits the united states of america. this is donald trump abusing the power of the white house for his own personal gain. >> quickly before we go. >> should he be subpoenaed by your committee, william barr? >> we are in conversation about that. we had subpoenas out there before. the white house has basically ignored every single one of them. we even voted on citations of contempt oen t

contempt on the floor of the house. we'll try again with bill barr. i think that at this point everything is a corollary to this case of ukraine that's unfolding in front of us. i don't think we should get too distracted because this is something that the american people see right now. at the same time you are pointing out very, very important problems with how the trump s are abusing his power. >> always great to talk to you. thank you very much. >> thank you, more "a.m. joy" after the break. "a.m. joy" after the break.

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are you comfortable of the role that rudy giuliani has been playing? >> i don't know what enough of what he's doing. i think a lot of americans see the $50,000 a month he was making does not pass the smell test. >> i see you want to get it in there. you think it is legitimate for the president to use his

personal attorney to go to a foreign country to seek help for a campaign? >> i think it is equally legitimate for a democrat to go there to say hey, we should investigate trump. >> joining me now jason johnson, natasha bertran and -- it has been a long morning. natasha, on that front, the main rival for donald trump affection politically of rand pau paul -- lindsey graham been all over the place on the kurds and etc. what's going on in terms of who's now influencing donald trump more. now you have lindsey graham out there being the defender and chief on the ukraine stuff. i don't know if he got asked or answered with the question of whether or not he thinks the trump's kids or son-in-law should be investigated for the

president cicy of their dad. >> our reporting shows that republicans have started to sour on rudy giuliani and they vn ha been telling the president that he should distance himself from this guy. >> are they going to throw him under the bus? >> we saw that the president distant himself. there is conflicting messages going on there. rudy giuliani is under investigation of the southern district of new york for violating foreign registration and act laws. it is matter of time trump is going to have to cut him loose. rudy giuliani says he'll remain the president's lawyer. but, i think rudy giuliani wants that legitimacy that comes with being tied to the president. and he's not going to be willing to give that up. >> let me play it quickly.

one of the things jason, that seems to create some what of a breaking point between donald trump and his normally republican members in congress is the issue of turkey. this is mike esper, he's talking about on "face the nation" of what's happening as a result of trump's idea pulling out >> it is a terrible situation, we condemned it and we have condemned it. these are things that we told the turks that would happen in the play out. who's conducting it? they're a turkish regular forces. >> we don't know who they are? >> exactly. we are here. >> these are war crimes. >> it appears to be. >> he certainly don't know who they are.

he's a now a republican senator, senator cramer who's on state of the union this morning. rather than echoing that, here is what he said. >> i am not sure the president have a lot of choices. we over simplify the relationships. the logical question is we prepare to stay and fight the turks and given the fact that the turks seem to be committed to come across the border and establishing this militarize zone. the president has a decision make as to which do we stand with in the circumstances. >> we have seen lindsey graham being two face on this issue with syria and the kurds. he's always with trump. do you think the lindsey graham of the world stand long in condemning of given the fact -- >> i don't trust anything lindsey graham says.

he'll float wiw with the winds. it is the example of how the s irresponsibility of this administration. it has been a dangerous bloody part of the world for many years both syria and northern parts of turkey. turkish shelling almost hit u.s. troop because the president was not clear enough on where we should go. are we pulling out or getting coffee or starbucks? it is not clear. that's why this is dangerous. unfortunately everyone republicans who understand the human rights abuse, they are concerned of their future than other national sovereignty and

overturn forei our foreign safety in that part of the world. >> marco rubio tweets out this morning. as turkish backed fighters approach a kurdish held city in syria. horrible. here is what he said on "meet the press." >> isis is not defeated. we got to keep the pressure on isis so they don't recover. we may won the world over or declare it over. you can pull your troops out if president obama learn the hard way out of iraq. the enemy gets a vote. >> the problem they don't say that when they work for trump. they only say it when they leave. >> they may say it to trump. we don't know what they're saying. he refused to tell the american public. yes, he left and resigned. people like him, like rex tillerson and h.r. mcmaster,

they listen in on these conversations that shows he's not fit to do the basics of the job. they swore an oath to the constitution. i take them of their words. that means telling the american public what goes on in the house that leads to this type of coherence in turkey. >> he's been authorized to shut down command. >> jason jonathan and natasha bertran. thank you. >> we brought you down, we are going to lift you up. back to who won the week. ck to k for the whole family. new vicks vapopatch.

breathe easy.

it is won the week? celebrity edition, and joining me is judge lynn toller from "divorce court" and ron perelman, a member of the task force for impeachment, and author of "easy street the hard way." and judge towler, i have to go to you first, because you a judge, and who won the week? >> simone biles going away. she became the most decorated gymnast in history male or female at the world championships, and she won the all-around world championship by two points in a sport where people typically win by 0.1 or 0.01, and she did it walking

away, and she did it on the beam with a gold medal and definitely simone biles. >> yes, she is amazing and one of the greatest athletes and she is getting the g.o.a.t. and that is true. and now, ron, this is going to be difficult for you the beat this answer, and so a moment and take a moment, and who won the week, ron perlman? >> well, they are all tough, joy, but i am going to take the cowardly way out, except not so cowardly, because i am talking about somebody who is exemplary in a time, and there he is. it is the sim pick i made a few weeks ago that i was here jimmy carter, but for slightly different reasons. before it was jimmy carter, because he being the man that we send to third world countries and banana republics to referee

whether elections are fair or not fair is the only prominent american that said that the election of donald trump was illegitimate and that he was never elected and that all of the results were tainted. that is the position i have been taking for the last two year, and no one has ever made anything of it, but the reason that i am picking him again is because he is 93, and he fell down, and he hit his forehead and he got 27 stichs on his forehead and the next day he is building homes for habitat for americans who need a hand up. so, he is the reason why we still have in our hearts a sense of the beauty of the country and what this country can be in terms of the generosity and decency and thank god, because we need examples of that wherever we can find them. >> you stepped up to the

challenge, because jimmy carter is indestruckable, and his post presidency is a great model and he is a great man and underappreciated man and especially on the climate change and he tried to do something with the solar panels on the white house, and he tried to do something about the greatest existential crisis as humans and people did not listen to him and on election integrity as well. i don't know what to do, because i don't know if i can beat my two celebri rrity panelists, bu have to go with somebody who is a clap back for those politicians running for president. and kamala harris had a good moment where donald trump tried to put her down and she did like a your mama on him, and so i have to go with senator warren, and she gave the your mama thing, and that is excellent, but elizabeth warren appeared

this week at a cnn forum for lgbt rights, and she was asked a question and her answer was so thorough and great coming on the same week that she actually hit facebook right in the jaw for running fake ads and by sending them a fake ad to see if they would run it. so she has had a strong week, and this is her answer on cnn. take a listen. >> let's say that you have been on the campaign trail -- >> i have been. >> and a supporter approaches you and says i am old fashioned my faith teaches me that marriage is between one man and one woman and what is your response? >> well, i am going to assume it is a guy who said that and i'm going to say then just marry one woman. i am cool with that.

[ applause ] assuming you can find one. >> and so i have to ask you both, and the performer, it is the shrug and the walk away without a mic that made that work for me. and she has political, and she has timing, right? you can't teach that. >> well, not only does she have timing, but she had, and a double punchline. it was like, a comic's dream is to like drop the mic and then pick it up and throw it down again. and like, assuming that you can find one. i reposted that this week. it really caught the imagination of everybody in the country, you are so right. >> and it is amazing, and so, judge, toller, i have say what is happening with the police, and et cetera, and your thoughts on it, because you have had the second case of a person shot inside of their home, and the case of the woman convicted and then hugged by a lot of people, judge, and what do you make of

that quickly as a judge? >> it has to be a clarion call for the police chiefs across this country about how you train your officers in the moment. you will see one officer convicted of murder, and within days another officer shooting inside of a house from outside, and killing the homeowner that he was supposed to be checking up on it, and it has to be a clarion call for chiefs everywhere and also for the judges to remember that, because our job is not to do the improper thing, and to avoid improprietary and she might have and not might have, but she did miss the boat on that one. >> and so, thank you both for being here. have a great rest of the sunday. more "am joy" after the break. try vicks vapocool drops. it's not candy, it's powerful relief. ahhhhhh! vaporize sore throat pain with vicks vapocool drops.

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playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. that is our show for today. and oh. okay. that is our show for today and "a.m. joy" is going to be back next week. and we were going to have morgan fairchild on, and we had audio issues. i tweeted that i wish we could have done it, and we will have you back on, and happy birthday to jill butler whose hank is my sidekick and producer, and happy birthday jill, and thank you, alex, over to you. >> thank you, and morgan