to whether or not you still consider him your attorney. is he your attorney? >> yes, and he's a great gentleman, he was a great mayor, one of the greatest -- maybe the greatest mayor in the history of new york. he was a fantastic prosecutor. i know nothing about him being under investigation. as somebody said ri, i heard a report today. i can't imagine it. he's a man that looks for corruption and whatever he does i believe he's a totally -- i mean, i know he's an honorable man. >> that honorable man is reportedly being investigated by federal prosecutors in manhattan for potentially breaking lobbying laws in his feelings with uzplkraine. >> wait, another lawyer of donald trump is now being investigated? >> that reporting come as we start another -- >> god, why is it that everybody around him ends up in jail? >> in the trump -- >> is that a coincidence?

because it's unbelievable. seriously had the his lawyers end up in jail. his fixers end up in jail. at least he's got that u.s. ambassador behind him. >> no, who the trump administration ordered to keep quiet is expected to testify this week. >> that's bad. >> and trump orders the withdraw of all remaining u.s. troops from northern syria forcing the kurds to make a deal with russia backed bashar al assad. >> morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, october 14th. with us we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heilman, he's the co-host. and executive producer the circus david ignatius. and white house correspondent for reuters, jeff mason joins us this morning. >> you know, john heilman, it really is -- it's just remarkable, this guy is making richard nixon look like a choir

boy. you have donald trump's campaign manager in jail. will probably be there for the rest his life. his first national security adviser admitted to breaking the law, committing a felony. i mean, you can go down the list, his foreign affairs person, his lawyer, his long-time lawyer, personal fixer in jail. and course of the week say lot is a lot of detail going to be exposed around rudy giuliani's behavior around the globe running to what amounted to an off books shadow foreign policy, pursuing the president's political objectives with people like -- with hinchman with names like igor and lev. so the picture, whatever legal jeopardy rudy giuliani might be in on the backside of these

investigations, the optics of the picture that's emerging of his role running around this globe and doing these things for donald trump is just very, very ugly and i think it's one of the safest bets in american politics right now is that tend of this week the situation's going to look way worse for rudy giuliani than it does sit williting here monday. >> of course, jonathan lemire, you have a guy that gave a million dollars to donald trump who was supposed to play ball with donald trump, who was supposed to play dumb, who was supposed to lie now saying he's going to tell the truth and testify. ambassador sondland who actually just admitted, yes, that text that i sent, that was written by donald trump. i don't know whether the guy's telling the truth or not. it's almost as if people understand around forever and t don't want tend to up in jail or certainly don't want to end up in trouble like everybody else. and since donald trump shows absolutely no loyalty, obviously

there aren't a lot of people that are willing to destroy their life's work for this guy. >> that's right. this is potentially a very damaging week with all the testimony we're expected to hear on capitol hill. fiona hill will speak later today and is believed to be, the reports are, that she will testify about the shadow foreign policy that was being run. the ambassador of the "u," ambassador sondland will testify later this week. he's been in the news in the last couple weeks because he's in those text messages that we all saw that were released to congress if the congress. if in it the president has been pointing to one of his saying this thereis no quid pro quo, the president of the united states pushing the president of ukraine to investigate joe biden, a political foe, in exchange for military arms and potentially a white house meeting down the road. in the exchange which some

diplomats express real concern of this arrangement after a long three-hour break in the text message exchange, ambassador sondland comes back and says there's no quid pro quo here again. the president has time and time again pointed to that saying there's nothing shady, there was no arrangement here, this is all on the up and up. now the reporting is that the ambassador when he testifies in front of congress this week is going to say that no quid pro quo comment was not his but rather what the president himself was saying after they spoke on the phone. so that, of course, should change the narrative -- changes the shape of the story completely and adds to this confusion this week for the white house. and, frankly, more pressure on senate republicans who now have to face the cameras as congress is back in session this week. >> and of course very important to remember that the ambassador of the eu not only said donald trump wrote that text that he was quoting, also said didn't know whether he was telling the truth or not. >> okay, fantastic. we're going to get to more on this in just a moment.

but let's show you the latest polling that shows a majority of americans support the impeachment inquiry into president trump. the latest cbs news you gov poll has that approval at 53%. 63% say the house democrats should cooperate with the inquire prit and 61% said the president should not ask foreign governments for help with election campaigns. and i think, you know, it's important to highlight this because, again, the white house really wants to believe that people don't understand the equation here. >> they do. >> and it's very clear just anecdotically you talk to people about it and they just -- confirms people are like, no, you don't do that. that's not right have some david ignatius, only 12%, almost one

in ten americans are saying it's okay for foreign countries to interfere with our elections and it's okay for donald trump do what he's doing. but the number in this poll that's so fascinating to me and also puts pressure on the white house unless they just want to see their numbers just continue to collapse is where almost two-thirds of americans are saying the white house needs to investigate -- or the white house needs to cooperate with this investigation, with this impeachment inquiry. 63% of americans say the trump administration -- >> wow. >> -- should cooperate with nancy pelosi, should cooperate with congress, should cooperate with this impeachment inquiry. so as they stonewall -- and even more nixonian by the day -- i suspect that 63% number just goes higher. donald trump only hurts himself politically even more. >> joe, the strategy of the

trump administration since the beginning of these investigations has been to try to make people think it's all just this washington circus of endless investigations back and forth. and these poll numbers suggest that people aren't buying it, that they do want to get to the bottom, that they don't see the ukraine investigation simply as an add-on to the mueller investigation. there's a phrase i remember from the watergate days, i believe it was something that one of bob woodward's source dollas said t it was every tree in the forest will fall. and i have a feeling that process is what we're beginning to see as people realize they face legal jeopardy. sondland and fiona hill realize they have to testify trudge

truthful truthfully. so i do think as jonathan and others have said, we're entering a different phase here. there's a tipping point in this investigation. i think this week we may go over that. >> you know, jeff mason, autocrats, tyrants, what some label people that attack the world, always blame the news, it's they're waive escaping any responsibility for their evil deeds. in donald trump's case he's always blamed the news or he's blamed the news for reporting on mueller. here, this is a story that he's already admitted to in front of a bank of cameras that, yes, he's trying to get china, he's trying to get ukraine, he's trying to get foreign countries -- >> and he would do it more. >> -- and do it more to try to

get them to meddle with american elections. you see these numbers skyrocketing. this is something that he may desperately try to blame the press or democrats, but it looks like americans are on to him. and as david ignatius just said, as this continues, it looks like every tree may fall. because people don't want tend to up in jail. they've seen the history of watergate, they don't want to be a part of it this time. >> it's interesting how what sort of ramifications that has for the white house strategy in dealing with all of this. they're seeing this polling. you're right to say the president criticize the media and lashes out at the media when he feels under pressure and that's a big part of his strategy and we've seen that in the last couple days and weeks. but what we also saw last week was a letter from the white house to nancy pelosi saying essentially and crystallizing the strategy of we're not going to cooperate.

and the fact that these people are testifying this week, the fact that the former ambassador to ukraine testified on friday sort of shows that that strategy is already crumbling. i was talking to a white house official last week who said this makes it look like we're caving. so the white house strategy seems to be coming sort of down just as the pressure on the president is going up. >> well, we want to turn now to the fast-moving developments in the middle east as president trump orders the withdrawal of all remaining u.s. troops from northern syria. the decision was revealed by the secretary of defense yesterday who said turkey's invasion has increased the risk to u.s. forces on ground there. we get the latest from msnbc chief foreign correspondent richard engel. >> reporter: the u.s. is getting out of syria at the worst time. just as turkey is making rapid advances in its war against u.s. allies, the kurds of syria advancing with the help of arab

militias. u.s. officials tell nbc news. and they say the militias include former members of al qaeda and isis. it means turkey, a nato country, is using alleged terrorists to attack the kurds who fought against isis for four years and carved out their own unofficial little state in the process. now that zone is collapsing. and as the turks and their militias push deeper in syria, the big news dropped like a bomb. nearly all of the u.s. 1,000 troops still in syria are leaving announced by defense secretary mark esper. >> i spoke with the president last night. he districted that we begin a deliberate withdraw. >> reporter: with no u.s. protection, the 2 million kurds in syria fear they'll be ethnically cleansed by turkey and its militias. and isis is seizing this moment to regroup. hundreds of isis fighters broke

out of a detention camp. amid all of this president trump tweeting the kurds and turkey have been fighting for years. others may want to come in and fight for one side or the other. let them. and tonight facing an assault they cannot stop, kurdish forces called on syria's president, an ally of russia, to deploy along the border. it's the end of kurdish self-rule here which they earned fighting along side u.s. forces. officials are officials told me it gives isis a new lease on life. richard engel, nbc news, northern syria. >> you know, david, the president's either lying or stupid, we'll let the president give us some insight into that later on today when he says that the turks and the kurds are fighting and we shouldn't get in the middle of it, let's just get out of the way. of course donald trump knows, actually, so he must be lying, donald trump knows that we sent our troops over there because of the rise of isis, because of the

isis state, because of all the people isis was killing, because of all the westerners they were beheading. because of the danger that donald trump said they posed not only to the western world but to america. and now donald trump has removed american troops and now is cheering, basically, al qaeda and isis working alongside with turkey to destroy -- to help isis. it's just unspeakable. to help isis, basically, rebuild their caliphate and to ethnically cleanse the very people that helped destroy the caliphate. >> it's so painful, joe, to watch this if you've had a chance, as i have, to be on the ground with these american troops and their kurdish allies. i've talked to people in the u.s. military who feel a sense of almost literally physical

sickness as they try to digest this news. i'm told that a gathering saturday night that included many senior special forces, veterans and intelligence veterans, there are was a mood of deep gloom at the sense of betrayal for u.s. military officer the idea of leaving your allies in the field to be slaughtered by these guerilla forces, temperatures been coming at us many, many months. this is like a car wreck and it finally just slammed. we now today see the breaking glass and the blood. it's a brutal process that syria is conducting. i hear from contacts that president trump is getting overwhelmed by requests from republicans, from prominent republicans to reexamine this policy before it's too late.

there was a tweet that president trump put out yesterday, just a flurry of them that suggested that he might impose unilateral sanctions against turkey today. congress when it gets back is likely to vote those sanctions. just would note, it may be too late to put this toothpaste back in the tube, even if trump announced sanctions. the kurds have had to make a decision of who can protect them? and they turned last night, as richard engel said in his report, to the syrian regime invited them to join them. the syrian army is now at the border working with the kurds because the kurds decided, so hard to say this, the kurds decided that america was not a reliable ally in whom they can depend. and they had to look elsewhere. so that reality is really sinking in for our military and its very painful for them. >> and you know, jonathan -- john heilman, look back to the

2016 campaign and see all the times in '15 and '16 that donald trump accused barack obama of invading isis. >> right. >> because he took -- he took our troops out of iraq. here you have donald trump, according to experts who know this area the most, according to republicans, akoiccording to lindsey graham, this is a guy who is reinventing isis. republicans have said, as isis emerges and as isis gets powerful again, it will be the blood, their words, not mine, the blood will be on donald trump's hands. so they believe, republicans believe, as do most foreign policy experts in washington and around the world, that donald trump is aiding and abetting isis. they believe donald trump is aiding and abetting russia, they believe donald trump is aiding and abetting iran. they believe donald trump is aiding and abetting assad in syria. they believe donald trump in this one move is aiding and

abetting just about every country on the face of the earth that consider themselves to be our greatest enemies. >> right. and at the same time the only person who entity that donald trump is not aiding and abetting right now is himself, joe, because if you think about, you know, if you were giving political advice to donald trump in this moment, a week ago, you would have said, listen, mr. president, you have a lot of problems in the house of representatives, you're going to get impeached, the road to salvation is keeping that red wall solid behind you in the senate. as long as you can keep all the republicans lined up behind you loyally standing by you, you'll survive any kind of a trial when it comes to the senate on this impeachment thing, don't do anything to alienate any of the republicans in the senate. then trump goes ahead and does exactly the opposite with this move in addition to all the profound strategic global ramifications that this has, what he has done, is he has created this shocking and really

unprecedented for in the era of donald trump, in the nearly three years he's been in office, we've never seen anything like this where the wholesale condemnation of donald trump in public by republicans, president has invited that. and thereby put himself in a position of vulnerability at the moment when he needs to have solidity, he's put himself in a position of vulnerability. it's a mystery. it's so adverse to his own self-interest that it is a profound mystery of what got into donald trump's moment when he decided to invite this kind of -- this behavior. so i, you know, we'll see. at some point i think there's a story here to be told. i don't know what the answer is, but it's a really devastating thing that he's done both on the global level and in terms of his own politics. >> ayman's right in terms of political realities. it's a rare issue when the republicans feel free to break with him publicly and loudly over this policy. you know, it is a campaign promise he had made to pull u.s.

troops back, although it flies in the face of course of his other promise to stomp out isis. it's one where he was outmaneuvered by erdogan in a phone call at the white house a few weeks ago and he has received almost universal condemnation. and it also goes to show, again, the lack of guardrails around him. there's no voices in the administration or even over at the pentagon who can stand up to him. let's talk for a moment about former defense secretary james mattis who just released a new book and did a media tour saying he didn't want to criticize the president, the time wasn't right. this is the issue he resigned over. president wanted to pull his u.s. troops out of syria. people around mattis have said that at the right moment he would speak, that he would be compelled to talk and give his opinion and if needed take on the president. he has still held his tongue. he is still in media appearances over the weekend has refused to so. so my question is this. for james mattis, if not now, when? >> very, very good questions.

>> it's a good question because, again, just talking to republicans, donald trump -- republicans believe donald trump is aiding and abetting isis. the rise of isis. iran, aiding and abetting iran, according to republicans and foreign policy experts. aiding and abetting vladimir putin and his expansion of power in the middle east. same with assad. and who is in danger here? our allies the kurds. of course americans are with the rise of isis. that will happen because of this move. and israel. israel has every reason to be absolutely terrified by what's going on here. because with our small contingent of troops, david ignatius, that just gives the iranians that much more freedom,

that much more power to expand across syria and build that bridge to israel, that land bridge to israel that they have wanted for a long time. so they could help in every way possible anti-israeli forces like hezbollah. >> this is a policy that makes no strategic sense at all, and will hurt us, i fear, for years to come. i was in beirut, lebanon on thursday and friday. and i talked to every prominent poll siti politician. and they said we pity you. we feel sorry for america. the basic idea was in this next period, the axe sis thatis iran is just going to be on a role

and america's friends have learned bitterly that they can't depend on us. so this has become, in a week, the common wisdom in the middle east. it's going to tsang takeake a l to dispel that sense that america is an unreliable partner. >> mattis has not spoken out, he's held his tongue. but if you read his resignation letter, he quit because he felt when america does not stand with its allies, it suffers irreparable harm. he repeated that yesterday. be nice if he said it more specifically. but i think we all get the point that the damage that was done by the syria decision will be lasting. >> well, we're going to be talking a lot more about this issue. the admiral will be joining us ahead the. also, "snl" tackles the past week's headlines and joe biden as the punch lines.

>> he explained withdrawing troops from northern syria saying we didn't need to defend our kurdish allies because, quote, they didn't help us in world war ii. but with world war ii it's hard to know who trump means by us. joe biden for the first time called for president trump to be impeached and removed from office after he realized finally that that joe biden trump keeps attacking was him. >> we're going to -- we're going to talk more about the 2020 race straight ahead, but first here is meteorologist janessa webb with a check on the forecast. >> good morning, mika and joe. we're finally over our major winter storm for the northern plains but the leftovers of the storm is that by thor cold temperatures. waking up this morning to frost concerns with overnight lows still in the mid-20s. but when you factor in the winds, the feel-like temperature in the teens. this cold front will continue to spread to the midwest, chicago very frosty this morning, in the 20s with temperatures continuing

to really cool off and fall below average for the next 24 hours. look at that temperature divide, that's the big weather story for the next few days here. for the northern plains to the midwest, but, man, it's really heating up for new york city. we're back in the mid-70s even for the south and southeast. that's going to continue before that cooler air really starts to spread by tuesday into wednesday afternoon. dallas, you're going to be finally cooling off, back into the mid-70s by your mid-week. and we're tracking this big-time storm in the gulf which will cause heavy rain from texas all the way to the carolinas. taking a live look at washington, d.c. right now, you can see clear skies, a beautiful day with highs well above normal. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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the president on friday announced that the u.s. and china had reached a, quote, substantial phase one deal on trade that will eliminate a tariff hike that had been set to take effect tomorrow. trump said that china will purchase upwards of $50 billion in u.s. agricultural products and also includes commitments by the chinese related to intellectual property and its currency. trump said the deal would take three to five weeks to write and could be signed by the middle of next month. the u.s. had been set to raise tariffs from 25% to 30% on $250 billion worth of chinese imports. >> so jeff mason, the president keeps talking about a deal, but

the chinese don't think it's a deal. his own -- his own treasury secretary is not saying that it's a deal. in fact, suggesting it's not yet a deal. they're just talking, right? what deal is there right now? >> well, it's really interesting the discrepancy between how people are describing it. the president, as you say, is calling it a deal. secretary mnuchin when we were in the oval office on friday watching and listening to the two sides discuss this said there had been a fundamental understanding on the key issues. well, there's a fundamental understanding on the key issues in may when china walked away from a deal that was nearly 90% ready. the chinese have not called it a deal, are saying that they need to have more talks. and even both sides, mnuchin and the president, said that more things had to be worked out before something could be signed. so, "oa," number one, nothing i on paper and in order for it to

be stiebd higned it has to be p on paper. and you mentioned this figure of 40 to $50 billion of agricultural products, that's something he wants tomorrow fa size because he wants to show farmers in key swing states he has their back. but the chinese said before they would make agricultural purchases and then not follow through. a lot of this is talk and a lot of this is not clear and certainly not written down or signed. >> the thing, john heilman, that's concerning to me is after donald trump's tariff taxes impacted working americans, after they required that he put together a socialist scheme, a bailout of agricultural industrialists, $16 billion, after all the damage it has done to trade and all the damage it's done actually helped to bring abo

about, and even conserve activities will admit this, the worst industrial economy in a decade. we are no better off than where we were before the trade war. >> is there any surprise in your mind? donald trump said that trade wars are easy, right? andly the there's not a piece of evidence over the global economy that would suggest that's true. as soon as we started down the path towards a trade war we knew at the end we would not be better off, it meant almost certainly we would be worse off. i've been grappling with the mysteries this morning, one of which is what's t-- what makes sense for donald trump to have done what he's doing? i understand the populous

politics related to beating up on china, i get that and how that works with the president's base. what i think we're seeing to your point about a manufacturing recession across a bunch of states that donald trump has to win if he's going to get reelectsed is r re-elected is getting a manufacturing recession, and making it more difficult for trump to get to 270 rather than making it easier for him. so it's another area in which i think the president's behavior is just on the facts of it is incredibly counterproductive to his own interests. >> and it's costs tens of billions of dollars for working-class americans. >> right. >> for all americans. if you look. and again, mika, at the end of this, whatever quote, deal, he ends up getting, and i don't know that he will, it's going to look no better than how it was before he started. so people are going to say, wait a second, we went through all of

this, farmers went through all of this, working class americans went through all of this, donald trump started, again, not only across the west but across the world a recession the worst in a decade because of these trade wars and we're no better off than we were when he started this thing. which is what, of course, everybody told him. that trade wars are not easy. >> it makes no sense. >> so he's learned this and guess who's paid for this? americans, really working-class americans, farmers and, of course, people across the world. coming up, much more on the u.s. troop withdraw from northern syria. keir simmons will join us live from the turkish side of the border. plus the admiral joins the conversation. more "morning joe" in just a moment. conversation. more "morning joe" in just a moment.

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it's a very terrible situation over there. a situation caused by the turks, by president erdogan. in the last 24 hours we learned that they likely intend ton

expand their attack further south than originally planned and to the west. so we know that's happening. we also have learned the last 24 hours that the syrian forces intend -- i'm sorry, the kurdish forces looking to cut -- the sdf are looking to cut a deal with the syrians and russians to counterattack against the turks in the north. and so we find ourselves as we have american forces likely caught between two opposing advancing armies and it's a very untenable situation. so i spoke with the president last night after discussions with the rest of the national security team and he districted th directed that we begin a deliberate withdraw of forces from syria. >> mark esper yesterday. joining us now, keir simmons. he is reporting live from turkey just over the border from syria. keir, what are you seeing there this morning? >> reporter: failed again.

>> all right. we lost keir. while we're trying to get him back, david ignatius, i just was struck by what the sec def played, you have an american secretary of defense saying that the president of united states was scared of turkish forces and scared of other forces and so it was an untenable situation and we had to retreat. we had to cut and run. we had to escape. when you've been over there, first of all, this is a horrible message across the world that we have a commander and chief that is as weak as is he and cuts and runs. we have a sec def that says we were going to get caught in the middle of turkish forces and other forces which since -- first of all, it's laughable. but also you were over there, david, and you know nobody, the russians, the iranians, the turks, the syrians, nobody was

going to push those troops, those american troops around. >> joe, i've been there repeatedly. this is some of the finest military officers and soldiers i've ever encountered. they have been backed by awesome power. the problem is that once president trump announced that we were pulling back from the border, he really did put those troops in an untenable situation. this mistake is so profound. he has been advised by every one of his senior leaders not to do this. in the phone call with turkish president erdogan he essentially gave things away. and, joe, i mean, when we hear those words from esper, they're shocking. you know, this untenable situation for american troops, for the most powerful military in a way, ground reality, it's

understandable. they were either going to start shooting turks or starting syrians, big new war, or get out. >> i believe we have keir simmons back. keir, give us a sense of what you're seeing and hearing on the ground there? >> reporter: hi, mika. just listening to what joe was saying, i've got to tell you we ran into some kurdish villagers on the way here. they asked us who we were. we said we're from american television. they said, oh, americans, you're chickens. so that's the whole reality right here. but behind me is the village of kobane, the syrian village of kobane. you will remember that village because it's famously where the americans and kurds fought together against isis. but things are moving so fast here now, in the last few days the turks have been shelling this town of kobane. but now, as you can hear, it is

silent and that is because of this news that the kurds have done a deal with president assad. we do expect president assad's syrian forces to arrive in kobane there. above kobane on the hill was the location, the base where americans were stationed before they left. and, of course, the question now is whether those assad's syrian forces will end up engaging with the turkish forces right here and other places along the border or whether a deal has been done. and of course how will that deal be done? well, it will be done with russia as the adjudicator and already president erdogan saying that he is happy with the plan that russia has set out for kobane behind me here. the reality is that if americans in 2016 voted for america to withdraw and let other countries

deal with situations around the world, well, here that is exactly what they are getting. president putin is in charge here in syria. he is, as far as we can see at this stage and things are moving very fast, he is the chess player lean offering this very complicated chessboard and he's a few steps away from checkmate in relation to washington because if he can do a deal that ensures that turkey and da mass ca damascus do not end up at woar with each other, he will be viewed a great mediator. >> i want to ask you a question that i'm sure everybody in the region, certainly here in the u.s. is worried about, that is the possibility that isis prisoners who have been held by the kurds could be escaping and

that isis could be reforming as a significant terrorist presence. what do you hear? >> reporter: well, we know that isis prisoners are escaping because not far from here there is a camp where around 800 or so isis foreign fighters were being held by the kurds. they are now gone, missing. in that case many of them were women and children. there's one case, for example, of a british isis women with two children who's now missing who was known as the matchmaker. she -- her isis career involving encouraging european teenagers to come to syria to marry jihadist. she herself married three isis fighters all of whom died on the battlefield. we know they're escaping. i've got to dell you thitell yo if assad's forces are taking

over syria and those isis fighters don't stand a chance. president assad will have little tolerance for members of isis. and so we shall see how this plays out. there are other camps held by the kurds where there are isis fighters still held. but, look, the entire politics of this place is changing so quickly that it is pretty difficult to make predictions about what happens next. we may be heading for a truce or we may be heading for a conflict that spreads. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you very, very much. and jeff mason, jump in. you wanted to make a point. >> yeah, i thought that my friend john lemire laid out the impact of this in the senate earlier with regard to impeachment. but there's also a political risk here with the core part of president trump's base. and that's the evangelicals.

bh wh when you have someone like pat robertson saying he's appalled by the mandate of the president and he may lose heaven because of this decision, that shows there is risk for the people who would be volting for the president's perspective next year in 2020. >> thank you very much, jeff. joining us now or former nato supreme ally commander retired four-star navy general and admiral. he's the author of the new book "sailing true north: den admirals and the voyage of character ". >> let's just make this pretty simple. let's boil this down, the essence of it. that the big winner, listening to kooers repoeir's report ther winner in all of this say man that donald trump count -- to on

our show in 2015, the man donald trump cowtowed said he believed his foreign agent rather than his own against and u.s. military. winner is going to be vladimir putin because this is the first time the russians have been in the middle east since '73 and now donald trump has ceded the entire country over to vladimir putin for the most part to do whatever he wants to do, to either make peace or, as reports show, continue bombing hospitals. >> indeed. and let's face it, let's do it from the inside out. we've done a lot of reporting about what's going on with -- with the kurds and the betrayal. we've done a lot of reporting about the resurgence of isis. but let's go to the geopolitical level here. you're right to underline russia. i'm going to throw into the mix,

joe, that are it's also a huge big day for iran fluttering around the edges of this. this is kind of a collision of empires, right? this is the turks invading the arab caliphate and fluttering around the edges are the persians. so this is big casino and parked on top of all of that at the moment is vladimir putin. let me give you historical analogy for how this kind of feels to me, which is think back to korea in the korean war. things got very hard on that peninsula in the 1950s. didn't we say, eh, the koreans weren't with us in normandy, they weren't on our snide world war ii, let's get out are here? no, we stayed with our allies. how did that turn out? south korea 15th largest economy in the world. loyal, true friend and ally in the is kind of a collision not only tactically, as we've unpack aged this morning, but geopolitically with vladimir

putin's russia getting an upcheck and the iranians getting an upcheck. that's a bad day for american geopolitics. >> and, jonathan lemire, let's talk about the winners and losers and everybody knows this. the republican senators have said this. evangelical leaders have said this? who are the winners? vladimir putin, assad, isis, and the iranians. our biggest geopolitical foes. who are the losers? of course the kurds, who end us destroy the isis caliphate. israel, and americans who are now going to have to confront a reinvigorated, strengthened isis. >> now, joe, you're exactly right in terms of the breakdown of winners and losers. and i like the point about the

evangelical leaders as well, it their willingness to break with the president. i'll add another loser and that's the capitals of europe which were more targets than the united states have been in terms of isis-inspired violence. and now we have the president of the united states last week at the white house suggesting that, you know, if isis prisoners were to go free, well, they'd probably go to europe. so let me go to you on exactly that point. just how -- i guess we could say how reckless and irresponsible is that, but what sort of train strain is this decision going to to put on europe and the kurds who feel like they can't trust us anymore, are these european capitals going to look at washington and say look what you did and invited into our backyards? >> exactly. it's not only europe as an entity, the european union, but it's also nato, nato alliance. here we have the shocking, shocking view of a nato ally,

turkey, second largest army in nato, invading other countries and simply putting u.s. troops at risk. it's extraordinary. and you can feel the creaking in the transatlantic bridge as you look at it. i'll add to that, we ought to look at this withdrawal of american troops because they're in danger and say to ourselves vladimir putin will wake up in the kremlin and say, you know what? what if i started to press into estonia? would the united states withdraw its troops because they would be at risk? or in china would president xi say, you know those u.s. navy destroyers that are flowing into the south china sea for freedom of navigation trolpatrols, are going to get withdrawn because they're in danger? it's shocking to me to hear u.s. secretary of defense say, hey, we're going to pull the troops back because they're at risk.

our troops are always at risk, they're prepared to be at risk, and if we're going to simply walk away from these challenging moments, we are not going to be able to build these alliances or deter our opponents. and that's what really ought to worry us. >> so, admiral, let's talk about sailing true north. if you talk to anybody in washington, d.c., at least off the record, even republican senators who may ultimately decide the president's fate, will speak mournfully about the president's lack of character. in this book "sailing true north" you talk about actually what makes great character. what builds strong character. tell us about -- tell us about that, tell us about the book and why you wrote it now. >> you know, joe, i think in many ways we're a wash in books on leadership. and leadership is how we influence others.

but character is how we lead ourselves. it's that inner voyage of what is right and what is wrong, what is honest and true hence the title sailing true north. so write about what you know. i tried write a book about that inner voyage by looking at ten historical figures, a group of admirals, some of whom are quite virtuous. admiral nimitz in the second world war. some are quite flawed, think sir francis drake, the pirate admiral privateer of queen elizabeth. it's a framework where we look at issues of character. i think there are plenty of books of leadership, i want write a book about character. and to bring it back to syria, i think what you see here is a collision of strategy and character. and if we were to sale true north in syria, we would stand with the kurds. we would stand with our allies. we would not give such

encouragement to our opponents. there's a quality of character that is vital in geopolitics, even in the midst of rio poly teague. >> of these ten admirals, which one had the type of character that america needs right now the most? >> i would say it was in fact admiral nemitz who led us through the second world war. after pearl harbor as that glittering pacific fleet literally smoking in the harbor, the battleship sunk, thousands of sailors dead, nimitz shows up to take command two days later. he can't stand in his beautiful whites on the deck of a battleship, the carriers are out at sea trying to be safe from the japanese. he has to take command of the pacific fleet standing on the back of a diesel submarine in a rumpled set of khakis. that's resilience, vision, strategic goal setting.

and above all, what nimitz did is it took this band of characters, douglas mcarthurs and bull halseys, and he melded them together and led them through the second world war, never raised his voice, calm, steady, that's the kind of character we need now in washington. >> the new book is "sailing tru north: ten admirals and the voy ainge of character" admiral, thank you very much. >> thank you, admiral. up next, rudy giuliani spends his days spouting conspiracy theories and railing against hunter biden. he may want focus elsewhere now that he is said to be under federal investigation. we'll talk to two former attorneys from the southern district of new york straight ahead. and as we go to break, that moment jonathan lemire referenced about president trump and america's european allies. >> what if some of these isis fighters escape and pose a

threat elsewhere? >> well, they're going to be escaping to europe, that's where they want to go. they want to go back to their homes. but europe didn't want them from us. we could have given them to them. they could have had trials or done whatever they wanted 'the we took care of icesy. we captured 100%. they should go back to europe. many of them came from europe. . many of them came from europe. so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar? thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ...depend® silhouette™ briefs feature maximum absorbency, with trusted protection for all out confidence... beautiful colors and an improved fit for a sleek design and personal style. life's better when you're in it. be there with depend®.

welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, october 14th and still with us we have white house reporter for "the associated press," jonathan lemire. national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc, john heilman. columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius. and joining the conversation, professor at principleston university, eddie glaud junior. and national political reporter josh letterman. >> john heilman, let's go back to what we were talking about before the break. that is how when all of this is said and done, you asked the

questions. >> right. >> you asked the question last hour, why would donald trump do this? it hurts him with his base, it hurts him with evangelical leaders. it hurts him with evangelicals because, of course, israel has been betrayed here terribly. and i can't -- i got to believe that that's going to hurt netanyahu politically at home while he's struggling for his survival. it hurts our allies. it hurts him with republican senators. it hurts him with -- so you ask yourself, why would a guy who is so shamelessly, shamelessly played to his base over the past 3 1/2 years, why would he do something that actually hurt him not only with his base, but with all of our allies and helped rebuild isis? i'm sorry, you've got to go back to vladimir putin. >> you've got to go to russia. >> somebody talked to him and it

certainly wasn't erdogan. somebody talked to him and the big winner out of this geopolitically is russia. here we have donald trump doing something that is inkplikiblexp everyone will tell you this is inexplicable. and so as we try to sift through this and figure it out, wait a second, how does this make any sense? because only person who really wins big out of this is vladimir putin. >> well, i think you answered the question. >> it's curious, isn't it? >> it's not inexplicable. it turns out it's inexplicable unless you consider the whole chessboard. i would add in to all the list of things that you talked about there about why it's so -- why it raises so many questions is that it also is imperilling the kind of political support the

president needs in the senate if he's going to guarantee he doesn't get convicted on the other side of an impeachment in the house of representatives. the president has threat end wh threatened what had been a solid red wall that's opened the flood gates to the criticism we've seen of the president over this foreign policy move that we've never seen before in the course of the president trump's time in office. again, to your question, you look around trying to figure out what explains that. it's inexplicable unless you don't talk about the fact that there has been a consistent pattern on donald trump's part related to pretty much everything, specifically related to things when it comes to national security and foreign policy where the consistent through line is if it's in russia's interest, donald trump does it. and in this case -- >> yep. >> -- there may be some commercial interests here too. but you think about it, again, i don't want to -- too much, but you've got president trump who was -- i don't think it's necessarily a coincidence that he had this call with erdogan

and it was putin's birthday. that's just the kind of guy trump is, right? it's it's vladimir putin's birthday there are say good idea. maybe there's some commercial interest that we think that the president has in turkey. we've heard about trump commercial real estate operations and aspirations in istanbul. there's a story here because all of the other naanalyses through the conventional lens don't make sense. you have to go through the prisms through what you have to see it. and through that prism it makes perfect sense for vladimir putin in russia. >> mika, you listen to what we've been saying for years. i have been saying for years that donald trump does not look at foreign policy as a way to help the united states of america. said for years that if you want to understand moves when it comes to foreign policy, you've got follow the money. why is donald trump behaving the

way he is towards saudi arabia when the rest of the world is deeply offended by what happened last year with the murder of a "washington post" columnist? because donald trump the saudis love his quote and paid him $150 million, paid his businesses in the past, you look at russia. i mean, we don't know all that vladimir putin has on donald trump, but we do know this. don junior said several years ago at a real estate conference that they get most of their money from russians. istanbul, you've seen the picture of ivanka trump and donald trump going and opening up trump towers. >> they had a news conference. >> in istanbul. >> they celebrate being there and it's clearly in their business interests to be there. >> right. so you take that. you say, wait a second, that doesn't make -- and then you look, it's business there. the same thing with the philippines. >> yeah. >> you look, a trump tower in ma

nail if t manila. >> there's a lot of countries he's catering too but with russia there's a connection. and at this point people are seeing the obvious and connecting the dots. isn't it kind of alarming that russia has such a hold on president trump that ultimately might be a question that we're addressing? >> night kind of alarming, this is extraordinarily alarming and -- >> it's remarkable. >> trump supporters have to understand that donald trump betrayed israel, donald trump helped isis, donald trump betrayed the united states of america and our closest allies in that region. and donald trump helped vladimir putin. >> former manager editor of "time" magazine nancy gibbs has a new piece for the "washington post" entitled "it's clear trump doesn't want to be president

anymore" she describes the piece as more of a thought experiment than a prediction and she writes in part this. consciously or not, might donald trump include that impeachment and removal is his least bad option for escaping the great white jail? resigning is out, that's for quitters. defeat in 2020 is worse, losing is for losers. but being impeached and removed from office is the one outcome that preserves at least some ability to denounce the deep state and the are the ones in the senate that stabbed him in the back. maintain his bond with his tribe and depart the capital and launch a media business to compete with fox news. >> that's all he's ever wanted to do. >> impeachment let's him go down fighting and he will call it rig and unfair and illegitimate and a coup, all of which be harder if the verdict was rendered next

november by millions of voters. when you think about it when a choice of bad options, impeachment didn't look so bad and gets you home to your gilded tower sooner, assuming, that is, that you don't think you can just burn the constitution to the ground and be the last one standing. i guess my question would be for a legal expert, and that is if he's impeached and removed from office, does he then face the southern district like if he left office without winning? >> well that depends on whether he would get a pardon or not. it's interesting nancy's writing this. i've heard for years that several years people close to donald trump, that the man doesn't particularly love the job and he hates losing more than he likes winning. and that if he could find an escape route, he would find an escape route. so it's a fascinating piece. i don't know exactly how he does that. i do know that we had reports

last week that follows up on what mika's been saying for some time, that he really is working on having ivanka trump follow him in the white house at some point, whether in '24 or the 2020 election, even though events are moving far too rapidly for that. it is fascinating what nancy says, because people close to him have said for sometime, if he could get out he would. >> you know, there are a lot of contradictory settlements of donald trump's mentality. first of all, he has an oversized view of himself and ivanka trump. others concede to that. he's worried about the impeachment label on him in terms of his historical significance. so on the one hand i could understand the thought experiment. on the other hand i'm thinking about his ego, his massive ego. but then the last point i'm worried about, joe, is this. no matter what happens and how it is the case that trump sought of office, whether he's voted

out, whether he's impeached, what we do know we will be in uncharted territory as a country. we've never had a president, an example president that could create so much havoc, who will not be silent, that will have a following, who will have an impact obje impact on the way we function. so whatever happens that post the trump presidency, we will still have to deal with him. i don't know if we understand what that means for our political culture and what that means forgetting about the country's business. >> jonathan lemire, i'm curious what you've heard through the years regarding the president. and i know that the president has been interested and thought he wasn't going to get elected in 2016 and started a rival network to fox news there. every time i see a negative tweet to fox news despite the fact that so many people over

there boy and scraw and scrape bun less since she lep left. he still bashes fox news. and i go here's a guy who's trying to set up his post presidency plans, start his own rival network. >> that was in the works in 2016. we did some reporting on some of the early stages about jared kushner and others around the president putting out feelers to try to find financial backers to launch some sort of trump tv project, whether that be a full fledged cable network or something online. but that was what was' plan doing and still could whenever this presidency ends in a year plus from now or four years after that. pushback on the idea that he doesn't want this job. he has told people around him for a while that, yes, he's terrified of the idea of being a one-term president. he feels like that is -- that is he will be labeled a loser. he doesn't want to be a george

bush senior or jimmy carter. he finds those weak and effective presidents. he feels like the trend towards two-term presidents, he needs to be one of them. he has been looking forward to his re-election which makes his recent moves puzzling. but let's remember this whole scandal about the ukraine is he was looking for information to help him get re-elected because he was trying to find dirt against joe biden. and his own ambition and faith in himself and being embolded because he defeated in his view robert mueller's special probe that he couldn't be touched this time around either. in fact, just in the last few days i gave in a speech friday night in washington where he joked not just about a second term, but perhaps a third and a fourth. so this is someone who he is in his right, he is not going away. he's part of the american landscape whether he's in office or not, but certainly his team is still working raising a lot of money do so despite being under water in a lot of polls. they're pushing forward and would seemingly do whatever it

takes for a second term. >> so let's get to josh's reporting about u.s. ambassador gordon sondland's expected testimony before the house this week. a source tells nbc news that the eu ambassador will tell congress does he not know why military assistance to ukraine was held up or who ordered it. he'll say when he texted ambassador to ukraine bill taylor there was no quid pro quo for an investigation into joe biden's son hunter. he will say that he relied on the president's assurances in good faith and passed these along. nbc news has reported that sondland called the president before answering taylor's concerns about withholding security assistance for help with the president's re-election campaign. sondland plans to testify before the house committees conducting the impeachment inquiry this

thursday. so, josh, in looking at this reporting, what more can we expect in this testimony? because it's sort of -- it sort of frames the president, perhaps, kwieding hguiding him say. is that the i frens here? >> let's start with the fact there's a set of information that we have, which is that we've seen his text messages with bill taylor, the acting ambassador in ukraine and kurt volker and others. so we know what he said in realtime. the fact he made assurances there was no quid pro quo and not tied to military assistance to ukraine. now what we're going to see from gordon southbound sobbedla gordon sond land make his own case why he's not culpable for that. he's going to say i was relying on what the president told me. as you just mentioned, we have already reported that in that five hours between the time when ambassador taylor texted him and said it's crazy to link military

assistance to ukraine with them opening an investigation to help the president's political campaign that ambassador sondland called the president and spoke to him. what he's now going to tell congress is president trump told me there was no quid pro quo, i was acting in good faith based on what the president told me. so we're seeing this pattern from a lot of the folks coming before the hill to testify in these impeachment proceedings where they're trying to basically spin the facts in a way that doesn't make it look like they were part of something nefarious but that they were just doing their job as best they could with the information they had available to them at the time. >> right. and, david ignatius, ambassador yovanovitch, her testimony is interesting just in terms of what we've seen from the opening statement on friday. what stands out to you? because it's now sort of the different sets of statements from people involved that are putting together quite an interesting picture.

>> mika, what i've seen is that the initial white house trump response to the whistleblower's complaints about manipulation of ukraine policy have fallen one by one. ambassador yovanovitch came across i think to people as a public servant, a diplomat, and as she explained it, the white house account of why she was relieved was just false and she described being essentially forced out of town because of political decisions that were made back home. gordon sondland, eu ambassador testimony similarly is going to shred another part of the trump justification. this wasn't a quid pro quo. now we're going to learn that ambassador sondland was told to say that. i want to know what fiona hill was running the ukraine policy from the cut off of military aid. it's a crucial part of this

testimony. that's the quid pro quo and fee yona hill can probably tell us about that. we just have seen an explanation, a defense from the white house fall piece by piece as each witness comes forward with new testimony and that's going to continue. >> a central character in all of this is rudy giuliani. many around the president have really soured on him. they've really been trying to push him out of this, and they blame him for a lot of what's happened. the president has shown a solidarity against the former mayor. he's tweeted about him and had lunch with him over the weekend. josh, i believe tomorrow is the deadline for giuliani to turn over his documents. josh, can you give us an update in terms of what you have heard in terms of whether he will comply and if he doesn't what's congress do next? >> so far we don't know whether he's going to comply. there's not a lot of indication

that he would. certainly not a lot of reason why it would be in his interest if he can avoid it to testify right now. because, look, aside from his involvement in these ukraine matters that we're talking about as far as the president, there's also the fact that these two associates of him were just arrested over the weekend shortly before the weekend involved in this campaign finance issue. there are a lot of legal issues swirling around giuliani, and it's not even totally clear what his current status is vis-a-vis the president when the president was asked just a few days ago whether rudy giuliani was still his attorney, he kind of demuired and he said i'm still lawyer to the president. he's a lawyer himself, but folks would be tell him, try to say as little as possible because

you're probably only going to do more damage than you are benefit to yourself. >> nbc's josh letterman, thank you very much. more on rudy giuliani just ahead. he could go from defense attorney to defendant? how his representation of donald trump is getting more perilous by the day. two top attorneys who both worked inside the southern district of new york join the conversation next on "morning joe." n the conversation next on "morning joe." here's the thing about managing multiple clouds for your business. when you've got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds- things can get a bit cloudy for you. but now, there's the dell technologies cloud, powered by vmware. a single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. that should clear things up.

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wthat's why xfinity hasu made taking your internetself. and tv with you a breeze. really? yup. you can transfer your service online in about a minute. you can do that? yeah. and with two-hour service appointment windows, it's all on your schedule. awesome. so while moving may still come with its share of headaches... no kidding. we're doing all we can to make moving simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. "the new york times" is reporting that rudy giuliani is being investigated by federal prosecutors in manhattan for potentially breaking lobbying laws in his dealings in ukraine. two people familiar with the inquiry tell the times that prosecutors are examining giuliani's efforts to undermine

former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch in an investigation tied to two of his associates who were arrested last week and accused of trying to influence u.s. politics with illegal campaign contributions. giuliani has denied wrongdoing saying there are no grounds to charge him with foreign lobbying disclosure violations because he said he was acting on behalf of trump when he worked with ukrainian prosecutors to collect potentially damaging information on yovanovitch and other trump targets. joining us now, former assistant united states attorney in the south korean district of new york, she's a partner of the law firm. and also former federal prosecutor in the united states attorney's office for the southern district of new york, jessica roth, she's a professor at cardoza school of law.

let's talk about where rudy giuliani has exposed himself legally here. jessica, why don't you begin. >> for we investigating this case there are three areas i would be looking at based on what's been publicly reported. the first would be whether he violated the campaign finance laws by soliciting a contribution from ukrainian nationals in the form of dirt on joe biden and his son to help the president's re-election campaign. the second area i'd be looking into it would be whether he participated in a scheme with the president and others to condition the release of u.s. military aid to ukraine on the ukrainians providing that kind of opposition research and an investigation on joe biden which could be a violation of the federal bribery laws as well as conspiracy laws. and the third area as been reported most recently would be a violation of the foreign agent registration act and whether he actually was working as an agent of foreign interests in his efforts to oust the u.s.

ambassador to ukraine. >> it's a curious thing to be investigating someone who is kind of the personal attorney or the personal television attorney of the president of the united states. in what ways do we have different scenarios we're trying to investigate someone who's an attorney, i'm curious about what would be the primary hurdles and obstacles to pursuing the investigation you laid out given the connection that he has, rudy giuliani has, to president trump? >> well, i think there's always -- it's not necessarily an obstacle but any time you have a high-profile figure being investigated or a public figure being investigated, you know, the southern district of new york understand when's they have a case that the whole nation is watching, as they did with epstein, and it generally proceeds as you would in any other investigation but much more carefully, there are many more layers of vetting. so if you were to bring charges maybe it would be approved by a unit supervisor and deputy

chief. here the u.s. attorney at a minimum would be involved every step of the way. they want to make sure that the process is done completely right and that everything is very buttoned up. because they don't want this to look like politically motivated investigation. it's very important that they maintain the public trust in this investigation and how everything is carried out. >> the fact that mr. giuliani san attorney and purports to represent the president as an attorney means there is additional hurdles that the investigators have to clear, for example, to get a search warrant of an attorney's office, the email, as was done with michael cohen's office. there are additional things required because of intruding on the attorney/client privilege. >> one of the interesting things about rudy giuliani's role in this is that he's been very public. there's a lot on record of what he has been doing and what he hasn't been doing. how will that play in the way

sdny might pursue those three things that you just laid out? >> the standard advice when someone's under investigation is to be very quiet and not make public statements. he hasn't followed that at all. he's held up his phone on national tv saying look at my phone, look at my messages, sharing his text messages, talking every night even as it looked as though he was getting in greater and greater jeopardy. the risk for him, obviously, is that he's making inconsistent statements, he's contradicting if parse shis friends are talki investigators. >> one of the things he said last week is he said federal prosecutors had no reason to charge him because he was acting on behalf of the president rather than the ukrainian president. that sounds dangerous for the president it makes it sound like he was trying to make a deal

with the ukrainians. but is he correct legally but whether that if jeopardized he would be vulnerable to the lob iing about charge? >> i think tihis point is more public understanding. i don't think it was exclusive that he was working for the president and could have been an agent of ukrainian interests in working for the ambassador's ouster. what seems to have been happening is he was in some ways an agent of ukrainian interests working to oust the ambassador in part by feeding information to the president about things she was saying that were disparaging of him and on the other hand he was representing the president's interests in obtaining dirt on joe biden and his son. so i don't think these things are mutually exclusive although he's succeeding in confusion the public perception of what happened. >> very briefly, what sort of penalties or charges coface? what punishment could he face? >> a number of charges i mentioned he would be facing a potential maximum sentence of five years of imprisonment and serious fines as well. these are serious charges.

>> thank you both for being on the show this morning. and coming up, the president versus the intel community. the cia keeps its mouth shut. donald trump does not. we'll talk to one of the nation's former top spies just ahead on "morning joe." nation't ahead on "morning joe." (alarm beeping) welcome to our busy world. where we all want more energy. but with less carbon footprint. can we have both? at bp, we're working every day to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. to make energy that's cleaner and better. they're america's biopharmaceutical researchers. pursuing life-changing cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that.

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welcome back to "morning joe." so donald trump, david ignatius, is tweeting that -- it may be too right there have a significant impact on what's happened. but what can you tell us about those sanctions, what could they be could they actually impact turkey in a negative way? >> joe, it's obviously hard to know. it is awfully late in the game to be sanctioning turkey. this horse is out of the barn, you could argue. but i would keep an eye on the possibility that this marorning there could be some announcement of an executive order for sanctions against turkey. turkey's very vulnerable to sanctions.

it's economially quite precarious with enormous debt load, the individuals that would be hurt by the sanctions. so keep your eye on that. there's also talk that trump might somehow try rescue the situation by reaching out to the kurds in some way with a phone call. personally i'm suspicious of this until it happens. i just would note that there it is in a tweet this morning, amidst a lot of other stuff from trump saying big sanctions on turkey coming. >> who knows, that may be a reaction obviously to the outrage he's hearing from the hill, from evangelical leaders. it's just a tweet, just like his pronouncements on china are just hot air for the most part. remember when he lied about the phone calls he was having with china over the weekend? >> china called last night. >> later admitted the white house admitted that he did that simply with jonathan lemire, you can tell us about that. he admitted that and the white

house admitted it was just a lie because they wanted to improperly influence the markets. here could, again, just be more talk. he makes so many pronouncements over twitter that he never follows through on. >> it's impossible to fact check everything he says. and certainly "the washington post" is trying to keep track of his lies and that's been tough to do. i believe over 10,000 at this point. certainly, yes, he is prone to say things that are not true in order to change the news story, he thinks. one of his syrian advisers told me he doesn't try to win a news cycle, he tries to win a news minute. he tries to win that moment. he will say whatever it takes do so to deflect something or take the heat off of him. that was the case with that china call which the white house was very embarrassing to acknowledge it wasn't true. it remains to be seen about these tweets from syria. he's received a ton of heat, perhaps the most criticism he's ever faced outside of helsinki from republicans on this matter. whether he's just throwing a

retor cal bone to them or this is a sign of some of movement, we'll find out to more in the days ahead. >> it is -- he just makes things up. he doesn't -- i call him a day trader, he really is a minute trader. maggie of "the new york times" covers the white house said at one time for donald trump he's living now like he's lived his entire life, and that is just to survive the next ten minutes. >> the moment. >> who are in front -- that's in front of him because he's been on the run his entire life trying to stay one step ahead of one bad story after another. >> meanwhile, people are trying to survive his policies and decisions and are dying now. >> yeah. still ahead, the hub of the civil rights movement elects its first black mayor from montgomery, alabama. steven reed joins us next. we have some new democratic polls on the states that matter the most. joe biden, elizabeth warren, and

bernie sanders are stacking up in that one, two, three close race in iowa, new hampshire, and south carolina. it's pretty fascinating portrait. we'll be right back on "morning joe." rait. we'll be right back on "morning joe."

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making history and win is one thing. but how we won and the coalition that we built is something that's very special. and at the end of the day, we know it's not just about the election, i know it's not just about me, i know it's about the people who believe in our ideas and it's about what we will do going forward. >> for the first time in its history, montgomery, alabama, will have a black mayor. the city has long been known as both the cradle of the confederacy as well as the birthplace of the civil rights movement. it was home to the first capital of the confederate states of america as well as the bus

boycott that made rosa parks a household name. steven reed the first african american elected as the county's probate judge and the first probate judge in the state to issue same-sex marriage licenses won two-thirds of the vote in a runoff to become the first african-american mayor in the nearly 200 years since the city's founding. and mayor elect steven reed joins us now. great to have you on the show. >> judge reed, thank you so much for being with us. it's a historic time. >> good morning. >> the first, yeah, the first capital of the confederacy elects its first african-american mayor. jackson of course also has a black mayor. birmingham. what does this mean, especially at this time in 2019, judge? >> it's very significant.

it's also humbling at the same time. it's not lost on me that your know, we talk about the 1619 projects and what happened with slaves being brought here in 1619. and then in 1819 the city of montgomery has been founded and in 2019 we elect our first black mayor. it's very significant that only so much so that we change our culture and the people who voted for us in that we bring the city and the community together i think to chart a new future rather than looking at the past. >> you know, eddie glaude, trevor pierce who writes politics for esquire tweeted after the election of the judge he said, you know, something along the lines of even if in these bad times for a guy my age it's remarkable to see the mayors of montgomery and jackson and he named another city or two that there are now black mayors

there and basically does show that even if in these challenging times there's been some remarkable change. >> absolutely, joe. i've always held the view that if the south can figure this thing out the nation will move into a next phase. figure out this race thing, the nation will move into its next phase. we see a new cadre of leadership and judge reed is in some ways an example of the new black leaders in the south who are not beholden to necessarily the civil rights generation. and, judge reed, first of all just give a shout out to moore house, i'm a moore house graduate, you're a moore house man, we want to give a shout out to our alma mater. let's talk about the agenda. there's talk about development on the west side as opposed to the east side. let's talk about crime and schools in montgomery. what is the agenda that suggests that you're well beyond symbolism but that you're going to change the face of montgomery

itself? >> the agenda has been very clear, concise from the beginning. it's been about opportunity and it's been about making sure there's equity regardless of their neighborhood or zip codes and making sure that things that we do as it relates to investing in our public education, making sure we have neighborhood revitalization and also broadening our economic footprint so that we are a part of the knowledge had based economy. right now we're a government-base and service manufacturing based economy. those don't provide the types of incomes that we would like to see for not only people here in montgomery, but people that reside in this entire region. one that includes tuskegee, alabama, one that includes selma, alabama. so we have a great history. but our economic future one is that is not as secure as i would like to see it. so what we have talked about has been the vision for this city has to be more bold and aggressive and more intensive to make sure that, would people

have an opportunity to get to the american dream and so that people in this city who have felt left out and left behind and looked over feel a part of the progress here. and so we've been very strategic and very deliberate about making sure that message went to all the doors that we knocked on, all the churches that we visit and making sure that we talk to the business community about the opportunities that exist globally in the thaek we're in and look at that time not from a micro level but a macro level. that's what we've tried to do over the course of the campaign and that's what we look forward to doing once we're in office. >> david ignatius. >> judge reed, the state of the nations, just i was struck by your first comment to joe that you really want to be about bringing your city together now. be interested in how you describe the significance of your victory in terms of the national political issues, the national divisions that we spend so much time worrying about. how do you think you can address some of that from your new

position? >> i think one of the things we want to let people know across the country is that montgomery has been the origin for a lot of great things that have happened, that have changed the course of history. the bus boycott certainly being one of the major issues and things that have taken place here. we believe that this election is one that can send a signal not only to alabama, but also to the country about what keeps us together and what things do we have that really tie us as one, as opposed to those things that kind of separate us from time to time in political discussions. we want 67% of the vote, not just with the african american vote, we had a multicultural, multiracial, multigenerational coalition that we built and that was surrounding the vision and not just the victory. i think if we focus on those hopes, those ideals, the benefits of what we can have for this country, then we start to look at the things that we can

do together and how much we can do together rather than those things that kind of keep us divided. >> mayor elect steven reed of montgomery, alabama. thank you very much for being on the show. >> thanks so much. >> congratulations. new battleground polls show the 2020 race tightening in several key early voting states. and elizabeth warren extending her lead. according to the latest cbs news you gov poll, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren has an eight-point advantage in new hampshire at 32% up five points since last month. job follows with 24% down two. for once senator bernie sanders is down eight points, now sitting at 17%. in iowa, there is a three-way battle between biden, warren and sanders. biden and sanders are tied 21-22

while sanders is at 21%. biden maintains his more than 20-point advantage in south carolina. 43% of democrats in the palmetto state back biden's 2020 bid. warren and sanders battle it out for second place with warren up four points. since september, sanders is down two. overall, among democrats and 18 early primary and caucus states, elizabeth warren leads the democratic field with 31% of support. joe biden falls closely behind at 27%. 17% say they back bernie sanders. with everything that's happened over the last 16 months, these polls have settled into what i would have expected them to settle into at the very beginning. a three-way tie in iowa, warren

winning the border state of new hampshire, and joe biden just absolutely -- absolutely knocking it out of the park in south carolina. fascinating. no falloff for joe biden at all in south carolina. a big falloff for bernie in new hampshire, and in iowa a three-way tie. i just have to say this. you look at iowa, and at 14%, mayor pete's surge suggests that's a guy who still could surprise everybody when they wake up the morning after iowa. >> right. so -- i think, joe, if you go back to -- you said the thing settled into where you thought it would be at the very beginning. to be fair to elizabeth warren, if you go back to january and february, in the wake of the fiasco around her dna test, a lot of the political class had written her off completely. so her slow and steady progress

week by week has been the most impressive thing, i think, on the democratic side just in terms of the pure message and the way she's made progress throughout, and now she's right there as a co-frontrunner with joe biden. there's no other way you could slice it other than that. you could argue she might be the frontrunner in this race, so there's that. given the nature of the new hampshire primary this time around, these two neighboring state senators, we have a situation where the importance on iowa, the folks in iowa and the importance of iowa is greater than it's been at any time in my career. so you look at that race right now, and you look at the fact that biden and warren are in that kind of deadlock at the top, and then you focus on, i think, the appropriate thing. the history of the iowa caucus is that the person who is in the lead in october is rarely the person who wins it in january and february. it's almost always someone who gets hot at the end.

you look now at mayor pete, he's someone who is best capitalized. he has money, can put resources on the ground in that state, can build an operation and is slowly rising right now, and is putting himself in a position where he can be the candidate that lives up to it. you said the key is to organize, organize, organize and get hot in the end. cory booker and kamala harris trying to do that, too. but right now if you look at the numbers, pete buttigieg is the guy you have to keep an eye on because he could get hot at the last moment. >> warren and sanders seem to have the best organizations in iowa, so i think that's something worth watching here. one piece of news, abc just announced they will have an interview with hunter biden, the day before the next democratic presidential debate.

that's going to shadow tomorrow night. beyond that, what are you looking at for democrats? >> i'm trying find the space that there is shakiness. this is another moment for kamala harris and cory booker. they're going to try to do that sugar ray leonard strategy, at the end of the round give a flurry of punches, and i think at the debate they need to make their move. i'm also looking for a differentiation between sanders and warren. warren is now legitimately in some places -- for some people frontrunner, and sanders has to begin to make a distinction between her position and his position. he said that she's a capitalist, but i also think foreign policy will be a place where he differentiates himself. i want to see a differentiation between the sanders campaign and the warren campaign. >> it will be fascinating. you look at the numbers, and if

we want to just break it down, three numbers, really -- or three numbers really jump out. one, south carolina. joe biden has not been impacted by anything that's happened there. bernie sanders losing eight points in the past month or so in a state he won by a landslide just four years ago in the democratic primary. and again, not to overplay it too much, mayor pete up seven points, and as jan heilman said, we've all seen this before where a candidate builds up, builds up, you see it coming, gets the momentum, organizes and wins in the end. so those are the three numbers that stand out the most there, but, of course, as jan also said, i think the most remarkable turnaround since january has been elizabeth warren. we've said all along she's done

everything right. the blocking and tackling, the aggressive campaigning, going out there. and actually, most importantly, loving what she's doing. the voters can tell she wants to be there, that she loves to be there, and they're excited by her. >> so still ahead, it's not just the threat of isis fighters reemerging, it's also their family members, many of whom have pledged their lives in the war against the west. two long-time reporters on the region join us ahead on "morning joe." joe.

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let me start by asking you about reports that lewdrudy giui is now under investigation involving the ukraine. and there is some confusion as to whether or not you still consider him your attorney. is he your attorney? >> yes, and he's a great gentleman. he was a great mayor. one of the greatest, maybe the greatest mayor in the history of new york. he was a fantastic prosecutor. i know nothing about him being under investigation. as somebody said, i heard a report today. i can't imagine it. he's a man that looks for corruption, and whatever he does, i believe he's a totally -- i know he's an honorable man. >> that honorable man is reportedly being investigated by federal prosecutors in manhattan for potentially breaking lobbying laws in his dealings

with ukraine. >> wait, another lawyer of donald trump's now being investigated? >> that reporting comes as we start another big week -- >> why is it that everybody around him ends up in jail? is that a coincidence? it's unbelievable, seriously. his lawyers end up in jail. his fixers end up in jail. wow. at least he's got that u.s. ambassador behind him. >> the u.s. ambassador whom the trump administration ordered to keep quiet is expected to testify this week. and there is a withdrawal of all american troops from northern syria, forcing turkey to make a deal with isis. we have jonathan la mere. analyst john heilman.

he's the producer of show time's "the circus," david ignatius, and white house correspondent jeff joins us this morning. >> he is making richard nixon look like a choir boy. you have donald trump's campaign manager in jail, will probably be there for the rest of his life. his first national security adviser admitted to breaking the law, committing a felony -- and you can go down the list. his foreign affairs person, his lawyer, his long-time lawyer, personal fixer in jail. and now here's rudy giuliani under investigation, and it does not look good for rudy. and by extension, does not look good at all for the president who yet, again, has another -- one of his surrogates in big legal trouble. >> yeah, and joe, someone the

other night said rudy giuliani was like a criminal lawyer except without the lawyer part. >> there you go. >> that increasingly looks more and more like that. the problem for the president right now is it looks like it's going to get worse. what we know about fiona hill and what we know about some of the testimony in just kind of a preview way of what's about to unfold over the course of the week is a lot of detail that's going to be exposed around rudy giuliani's behavior around the globe, running what amounted to an off-book shadow's foreign policy, pursuing the president's objectives with with henchmen like igor and lev. whatever legal jeopardy rudy giuliani might be in on the back side of these investigations, the optics of the picture that's emerging of his role running around this globe and doing these things for donald trump is just very, very ugly, and i

think it's one of the safest bets in american politics right now, that at the end of this week, the situation is going to look way worse for rudy giuliani than it does sitting here on this monday. >> and, of course, you have a guy that gave a million dollars to donald trump, who was supposed to play ball with donald trump, who was supposed to play dumb, who was supposed to lie now says he's actually going to tell the truth and testify, mr. sondland, who actually just admitted, yes, that text that i sent, that was written by donald trump, and i don't know -- it's almost as if people understand that donald trump may not be around forever, and they don't want to end up in jail or certainly don't want to end up in trouble like everybody else. and since donald trump shows absolutely no loyalty, obviously, there aren't a lot of people that are willing to destroy their life's work for this guy. >> that's right. this is potentially a very damaging week for the president

with all the testimony we're expected to hear on capitol hill. fiona hill, who up until recently was top adviser about russia matters, is going to speak later today and the reports are she'll have very damaging information about the shadow foreign policy that was being run. as you just said, the ambassador of the eu, ambassador sondland, is going to speak later this week. he's, of course, been in the news the last couple weeks because he's been in the text messages we all saw released to congress, and in it he's pointing to one of his saying, no, this is not a quid pro quo, including, i.e., the president of the united states pushing the president of ukraine to investigate joe biden, a political foe, in exchange for political arms and potentially a white house meeting down the road. in the exchange, in which some diplomats express real concern after a long three-week break in

the texas exchange, he comes back and says, no, there is no quid pro quo here. they say, there is nothing shade i, the people are saying there was no arrangement here, this is on the up and up. but now the reporting is the ambassador, when he testifies before congress this week, is going to say the no quid pro quo comment was not his but rather what the president himself was saying after they spoke on the phone. that, of course, changes the shape of the story completely and adds to this confusion this week for the white house, and frankly, more pressure on senate republicans who now have to face the cameras as congress is back in session this week. >> and it's important to remember that the ambassador not only said donald trump wrote that text he was sending also said he didn't know if he was telling the truth or not. >> let's show the latest polling that shows a majority of americans support the impeachment inquiry into president trump.

the latest, cbs news yougov poll has that approval at 60%. 63% said the house should cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. 61% said they should not ask foreign countries for help with election campaigns. again, the white house really wants to believe that people don't understand the equation here. >> they do. >> and it's very clear. just anecdotally, you talk to people about it and they just don't like it. it rubs them the wrong way. they may not know about the legalities or illegalities of it which exist, but in simple terms, people are like, no, you don't do that. that's not right. >> david ignatius, only 12%, almost one in ten americans, are saying it's okay for foreign countries to interfere with our

elections and it's okay for donald trump to do what he's doing. but the number in this poll that is so fascinating to me and also puts pressure on the white house, unless they just want to see their numbers just continue to collapse, is where almost two-thirds of americans are saying the white house needs to investigate -- or the white house needs to cooperate with this investigation, with this impeachment inquiry. 63% of americans say the trump administration should cooperate with nancy pelosi, should cooperate with congress, should cooperate with this impeachment inquiry. so as they stonewall -- and lan even more nixonian by the day, i suspect that 63% number just goes higher and donald trump hurts himself politically even more. >> joe, the strategy of the trump administration since the beginning of these investigations has been to try

to fog them, to make people think it's all this washington circus of analyst investigations back and forth. these poll numbers suggest that people aren't buying it, that they do want to get to the bottom, that they don't see the ukraine investigation simply as an add-on to the mueller investigation. there is a phrase i remember from the watergate days. i believe it was something that one of bob woodward's sources said to him. it was every tree in the forest will fall. and i have a feeling that process is what we're beginning to see. as people realize they face legal jeopardy, as people like gordon sondland, fiona hill realize they have to testify truthfully because these investigations aren't going to stop, because they see those poll numbers, too. i do think, as jonathan and others have said, we're entering a different phase here. there is a tipping point in this

investigation. i think this week we may go over that. >> you know, jeff mason, autocrats, tyrants, people that are running some label liberal democracies across the world always attack the news, always blame the news. it's their way of escaping any responsibility for their evil deeds. well, in donald trump's case, he's always blamed the news or he's blamed the news for reporting on mueller. here this is a story that he's already admitted to in front of a bank of cameras that, yes, he's trying to get china, he's trying to get ukraine, he's trying to get foreign countries -- >> and he would do it more. >> -- and he would do it more and try to meddle in american elections. you see these numbers skyrocketing. this is something he may desperately try to blame the

press or blame democrats, but it looks like americans are on to him, and as david ignatius just said, as this continues, it looks like every tree may fall. because people don't want to end up in jail. they've seen the history of watergate. they don't want to be a part of it this time. >> yeah, absolutely, and i think it's interesting what sort of ramifications that has for the white house strategy in dealing with all of this. they're seeing this polling. you're certainly right to say the president criticizes the media and lashes out at the media when he's under pressure. that's usually a big part of his strategy and we've seen that the last couple days, last couple weeks. what we also saw last week was a letter from the white house to nancy pelosi saying essentially and crystallizing their strategy of, we're not going to cooperate. and yet the fact that these people are testifying this week, the fact that the former ambassador of ukraine testified on friday sort of looks like the

strategy is crumbling. the white house strategy seems to be coming down just as the pressure on the president is going up. still ahead, the winners in syria right now. assad, russia, iran, turkey, and potentially isis. the losers col: the kurdish for who fought side by side with special forces. that's next on "morning joe." ". (logo whooshes) (logo chiming)

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aaddiction. how juuline hooked kids and ignited an public health crisis." other news outlets report- juul took $12.8 billion from big tobacco. markets e-cigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. . we want to turn now to the fast-developing situation in the middle east.

the secretary for the middle east says turkey has increased on the ground there. we get the latest from correspondent richard engel. >> reporter: the u.s. is getting out of syria at the worst time, just as turkey is making rapid advances in its war with use allies, the kurds of syria, advancing with the help of arab militia, u.s. officials tell nbc news. and they say the militia includes former members of al qaeda and isis. it means turkey, a native country, is using alleged terrorists to attack the kurds who fought with u.s. troops against isis for four years and carved out their own unofficial little state in the process. now that autonomous zone the kurds call rojova is collapsing. and as the turks push deeper into syria, the news dropped like a bomb.

more than 112,000 people in syria are leaving. >> i spoke with the president last night. he proposed we begin a deliberate withdrawal. >> reporter: the kurds feel like they'll be ethically cleansed by the militia. hundreds of isis fighters today broke out of a detention camp. amid all this, the president tweeting, the kurds and turkey have been fighting for years. others may want to come in and fight one side or the other. let them. and tonight facing an assault they cannot stop. they have employed an ally of russia to deploy along the border. it's the end of kurdish self-rule here which they learned fighting alongside u.s. forces. an official told me it's a failure of u.s. values, helps isis and gives them a new lease on life. richard engel, northern syria.

>> the president, who is lying or stupid, will give us some insight on that later on today when he says the turks and the kurds are fighting and we shouldn't get in the middle of it, let's just get out of the way. of course, donald trump knows, actually, so he must be lying. donald trump knows that we sent our troops over there because of the rise of isis, because of the isis state, because of all the people that isis was killing, because of all the westerners he was beheading, the danger that donald trump said they posed not only to the western world but to america. and now donald trump has removed american troops and now is cheering, basically, al qaeda and isis working alongside with turkey to help isis -- it's just unspeakable -- to help isis basically rebuild their

caliphate and to ethnically cleanse the very people that helped destroy the caliphate. >> it's so painful, joe, to watch this if you've had a chance as i have to be on the ground with these american troops and their kurdish allies. i've talked to people in the u.s. military who feel a sense of almost literally physical sickness as they try to digest this news. i'm told at a gathering saturday night that included many senior special forces, veterans and intelligence veterans, there was a mood of deep gloom at the sense of the trail for a u.s. military officer, the idea of leading your allies in the field to be slaughtered by these guerrilla forces, their families to be attacked. it's the hardest thing possible. this has been coming at us now for many, many months. it seems like a car wreck we're watching in slow motion and it

finally just slammed, and we now today see the breaking glass and the blood. it's a brutal process that syria is conducting. i hear from contacts that president trump is getting overwhelmed by requests from republicans, from prominent republicans, to reexamine this policy before it's too late. there was a tweet that president trump put out yesterday amidst a flurry of them that suggested he might impose unilateral sanctions against turkey today. congress when it gets back later this week is likely to vote on those savnnctions, so trump mig get out ahead of it. it may be too late to put this toothpaste back in the tube as trump announces the kurds and who can protect them. the syrian army is now at the

border working with the kurds because the kurds decided -- it's so hard to say this -- the kurds decided that america was not a reliable ally on whom they could depend and they had to look elsewhere. coming up on "morning joe" in the trade talks, president trump may just realize he's operating on a different timeline than china's leader. trump's got about a year until the election while president xi is leader for life. "morning joe" is back in a moment. a moment 300 miles an hour, that's where i feel normal. having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected.

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the president on friday announced that the u.s. and china had reached a, quote, substantial phase one deal on trade that will eliminate a tariff hike that had been set to take effect tomorrow. trump said that china will purchase upwards of $50 billion in u.s. agricultural products that also includes commitments by the chinese related to intellectual property and its currency. trump said the deal would take three to five weeks to write and could be signed by the middle of

next month. the u.s. had been set to raise tariffs from 25% to 30% on $250 billion worth of chinese imports. >> jeff mason, the president keeps talking about a deal, but the chinese don't think it's a deal. his own treasury secretary is not saying that it's a deal. in fact, suggesting that it's not yet a deal. they're just talking, right? what deal is there right now? >> well, it's really interesting, the discrepancy between how people are describing it. the president, as you say, is calling it a deal. secretary mnuchin, when we were in the oval office on friday watching and listening to the two sides discuss this, said that there had been a fundamental understanding on the key issues. well, there is a fundamental understanding of the key issues in may when china walked away from a deal that was nearly 90% ready. the chinese have not called it a deal, are saying they need to have more talks.

and even both sides, mnuchin and the president, said more things had to be worked out before something could be signed. so a, number one, nothing is on paper, and in order for it to be signed, it has to be put down on paper. and b, the president is emphasizing the fact, and you mentioned this figure of 40 to $50 billion of agricultural products, that's something he wants to emphasize because he wants to show farmers in key swing states that he has their back, but the chinese have said before they would make agricultural purchases and then not follow through. so a lot of this is talk and a lot of this is not clear and certainly not written down or signed. >> you know, john heilemann, the thing that's so concerning to me is that after donald trump's tariff taxes impacted working class americans, after donald trump's tariff taxes required that he put together a socialist scheme, a bailout of agricultural industrialists, $16

billion. after all the damage it has done to trade and all the damage it's done actually helped to bring about, and even conservatives admit this, the worst manufacturing recession in over a decade. even if we get this so-called, quote, deal, we are in no better position than we were when donald trump began the trade war. >> yes. is there any surprise in your mind about that, joe? there's never been -- donald trump famously said the trade wars are easy, right? there is literally not a single piece of demonstrable empirical evidence over the modern global economy that would suggest that's true. so as soon as we started down the path toward a trade war, you knew it would not mean at the end of it we would be better off. it meant most certainly we would

be worse off. i'm grappling with the mysteries this morning, namely what the politics are with what donald trump is doing with the kurds and syria. another one is this question, which is i understand the rhetorical politics, the populist politics related to beating up on china. i get that and how that works with the president's base. what we're seeing with a manufacturing recession across a bunch of states that donald trump has to win if he wants to get reelected is in terms of the policy here that is producing a manufacturing recession, as you pointed out, and that's making it more difficult for trump to get to 270 rather than making it easier for him. so it's another area in which i think the president's behavior is just on the facts of it is incredibly counterproductive to his own interests. >> and it's cost tens of billions of dollars for working class americans, for all americans. and again, mika, at the end of

this, whatever, quote, deal he ends up getting, and i don't know that he will, it's going to look no better than how it was before he started. so people are going to say, wait a second. we went through all of this, farmers went through all of this, working class americans went through all of this? donald trump started again not only across the midwest but across the world a manufacturing recession, the worst in the decade, because of these trade wars, and we're no better off than we were when he started this thing. which is what, of course, everybody told him, that trade wars are not easy. >> it makes no sense. >> he's learned this, and guess who has paid for this? americans. working class americans, farmers, and, of course, people across the world. coming up, back to the war in syria. if bashar assad was already brutal to his people during the war, what happens now that he's poised to conquer them?

the latest in the vacuum on syria now that the u.s. is heading for the door. "morning joe" is back in a moment. moment ♪ ♪ 'cos i know what it means ♪ to walk along the lonely street of dreams ♪ ♪ here i go again on my--- you realize your vows are a whitesnake song? i do. if you ride, you get it. geico motorcycle.

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isis is not defeated. we have got to keep the pressure on isis so they don't recover. we may want a war over, we may even declare it over. you can pull your troops out, as president obama learned the hard bay, out of iraq. but the enemy gets a vote, we say in the military. and in this case if we don't keep the pressure on, then isis will resurge. it's absolutely a given that they will come back. >> former secretary, defense secretary james mattis yesterday on "meet the press." joining us now, columnist for "the daily beast" and co-author of the best-selling book "isis: inside the army of terror."

and also sue mckin in this case. she is the author of the book "i was told to come alone: my journey with thery h rihad." michael, what are some of the messages being sent so far at this point? >> let me say in eight years of covering syria, i have not seen developments this quickly and this catastrophic ever before. a week or less? the assad regime in russia behind it. this thing actually raises a lot more questions than it gives answers. the reason being, the kurds have presented this as their salvation. russia is coming in now to protect us from this turkish onslaught. however, president erdogan of turkey is saying he's continuing to advance southward into syria. he's gunning for minbij, which

is an important city. he already controls albab and jerodis. and he's said he coordinated with russia on kobani. it's the first place where the ppk and the militia posed in 2015. if turkey were to take this city as part of some macchavialian deal. i think they've been sold a pup here. they think russia and syria has their back. and another important thing, again, these deals are preliminary and have not been confirmed, but i'm seeing a lot of good reporting on them, the ftf is to be dissolved. this militia, this proxy armory which was largely responsible for defeating isis, is likely to melt into something called the

fifth corps, which is a russian-run military unit fighting alongside the regime but also, interestingly, is the receptacle of another one abandoned by assad and his forces. this whole thing to me screams america's defeat in syria. not just a u.s. withdrawal, but one where we have not just sold our allies but put them in a situation far worse than they were in just a week ago. >> it's incomprehensible. suwad, you and i have been e maili mailing on this. you call it a disaster. tell us why. >> because there are some severe implications, also for the united states. on the one hand you could hear the president saying all these isis fighters and their families will go back to europe, so it sounds like, why should we care.

but what the president forgot is that, first of all, if those people go back to europe in an uncontrolled manner, and this is what a lot of european security services are nervous about, people who returned from isis or who slipped into europe have committed attacks. don't forget there have been attacks against the jewish museum, the paris attacks and so on. but there is also another level, mika, which a lot of people forget. we haven't learned the lessons from history, it seems. three people -- three of the 9/11 pilots were recruited and radicalized in germany. the man who recruited them was mohammad zamar. i met mohammad zamar two months ago in syria where he was in kurdish der tensitention. so all these people who were in kurdish detentions are being

handed over to bashar assad, and they ever a lot of important information that could be useful for u.s. national security interests, and there is no more access. if those people indeed are making it back or out of those prisons in an uncontrolled manner, you don't know what might happen. they might commit attacks. they might be the recruiters of tomorrow, so that's very, very distressful, not only for europe or the region but also for the united states of america. >> mika, you ju-- michael, you painted a pretty grim picture of isis there. we're seeing footage of these prisoners being freed. there is certainly talk this is really going to embolden them and revive them going forward. walk us through what that could look for. we heard the president the other day say this could look good for the united states.

is this the caliphate or terror elsewhere? >> i don't think it's the caliphate at the moment. isis does best when there is an insurgency and they can do a counter terror attack. if i'm them, the other reason i like this is that everything has been rolled back to some degree. russia and the regime took isis, isis came back and started taking soldiers, waging terror attacks. what they have been scaling back from has been relatively stable. not perfect but relatively stable. now you'll see the unflux of assad, iran, russia and turkey. these are four powers that cannot contain isis to the extent that the united states has done. these are four powers that frankly are going to be infiltrated by isis members.

i've already seen examples, for instance, of isis taking off their garb and donning the garb of the other side, basically, in order to infiltrate and conduct these attacks. yes, this is a boon for isis, potentially. this is not about the u.s. waging war. the most important aspect about this is the u.s. able to gather intelligence for their moovr movements, their intelligence, what they're planning. their eyes and ears have been removed from the ground and we are relying on, again, iran, tehran and damascus primarily but also to underwrite european advancement. if you're putin and you're thinking, gee, how can i get sanctions lifted now? i'll just threaten to lift my

forces and allow them into turkey to blow things up. same goes for assad, same goes for the force that leads the expeditionary way. this is a disaster for syria. >> michael is talking about the winners here, the winners being vladimir putin, assad and isis. i just want to focus at the end here on the kurds. there is a lot of political and moral revulsion over what donald trump has done here by abandoning the kurds, and if you think about what has now been set loose and in motion, what now happens in a practical sense? what now happens to the kurds over the days, weeks and months ahead? >> well, first of all, we have to also mention here that the kurds have been asking for a long time for help from the u.s. and also the ump europeans.

when i was there recently, they told me, look, we need help in the camps. we need help to secure the camps. we need help to secure the prisons. we need actually prison facilities because a lot of those facilities where they held the most dangerous isis fighters used to be schools, and they turned them into prisons. they have asked a long time for help. they fought the war alongside the u.s. if you are in the area in syria, you will not find a family where they have not lost at least one family member during this fight, and they took care of all the wives and children. first of all, they feel betrayed by the u.s. this is also sending a very strong message, i guess, to other u.s. allies in the region. the question, how much can you trust the u.s. if they say you're an ally that they won't abandon you? and for a lot of the kurds now, the question also in the region is don't forget some of those

people were in the opposition. the questions they are having is what's going to happen to us? will we now be imprisoned by the outside regime? there are a lot of insecurities and uncertainties. before i came on the show, i spoke to people there and they said, we don't know exactly what is going to happen, but the kurds have told the u.s. for several weeks now that if you don't step in, if you don't bacchus and help us, we have no other choice but striking a deal with assad and the russians. this has been -- those conversations happened for a long time. >> souad mekhennet, michael weiss, thank you both for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. still ahead on "morning joe." >> you don't trust the fbi, you don't trust the cia. i'm just confused here. >> no, i don't. after james comey -- >> you don't trust the fbi or

any intelligence agency sf. >> i don't trust any of them. >> do you trust them now? >> no. i didn't trust them back then. >> that gem was brought to you by sitting u.s. senator ron johnson last week on "meet the press." coming up, we're going to talk to a former cia spy about the state of the intel community and her life undercover. next on "morning joe." joe." i see award-winning service, and a trade desk full of experts, available to answer your toughest questions. and i see it with zero commissions on online trades. i like what you're seeing. it's beautiful, isn't it? yeah. td ameritrade now offers zero commissions on online trades. ♪ (beep) the ups and downs of frequent mood swings can plummet you to extreme lows. (crying) lift you to intense highs.

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pope francis caused confusion yesterday when he appeared to announce the world that he is a nornld saints fan. hours before they took to the team today we give thanks to the lord for our new #saints. they walked by faith and now we invoke their intercession. it inadvertently added the team's logo. the saints retweeted after their 13-6 victory couldn't lose after this, #blessed and highly favored. a fun story on an otherwise tough news morning. the next guest joined the cia at the age of 21 and in ten years got married, had a baby, and was deep under cover coming face to

face with some of the world's most infamous terrorists. former cia officer amaryllis fox. "life undercover." let's start with why you wrote the book. >> you know i think in this moment, the search for common ground is more important than ever. people don't always associate that search with the agency, the cia, and intelligence work. but i found it is an alternative to the military in trying to cultivate relationships with sources and understand and predict acts of war and acts of terrorism before they happen. when i joined it wasn't really with a view to finding common ground. i had my dear friend was on the flight that went down over

scotland in third grade. the first person i knew that died was taken by an act of terrorism. i was in new york at 9/11. so when i began it was request a few of wiping the adversary off of the playing field. and it was over the course of many interactions that that just doesn't work. it's not a fulfilling way to live, but for every adversary that we destroy we risk creating more and adding to the hydros heads. we can't prevent violence with violence alone. god knows we humans have tried. so as i saw our domestic conversation desintegrate, and

it struck me that it might be useful to share some of these interactions and we opened that opportunity to see one another as americans again and find a path forward to dialogue. >> you talk about sharing some of these interactions and stories, tell us about the experiences you have in this book and i understand there was controversy about whether or not you had approval from the cia to release this. what is the urgency to share the stories now and their relevancy today. >> everything you write is reviewed and that is really necessary. and for me before putting pen to

paper i had guidance around what operational details had to be omitted or changed. and because this was a personal journey book rather than an operational tell all it was fine. the details that needed to be changed weren't important to a reader being able to experience these interactions and this journey. and i think the most important of them are repeated lessons that when we step back and when we take off our adversarial hat and find a way to connect, whether it is as parents, americans, national park loves, whatever our common ground can be when we return to whatever is dividing us, we can actually tackle it with a little more respect and a little bit more dialogue, and i think this is more critical now than ever. i have spent decades looking at threats to our country and

they're out there, right? we have military adversaries, terror groups, we have rogue states. we have the strongest military intelligence complex in the world to deal with, threat, and respond to those threats. what they can't respond to is divisions that are pulling our house down from within. every school kids learns that house divided cannot stand. and our adversaries learned it, too. when they changed our judgment when they could not out gun us they realized if they spent their resources sewing divisions domestically we would do their work for them. every time we would retreat into corners, the ads of which have been funded by our adversaries we're playing right into their hands. >> on president trump's second day in office he went to cia

headquarters and stood before the wall of stars of those who have fallen in their missions overseas and gave a very political speesh where he bashed the intelligence agencies. he has done that time and time again, and he questioned their work and their worth. what do you think as someone that spent ten years of your life doing this. what is he doing to the institution, who really, and they're ability to do their work. >> time and again in my service, i was struck by the extraordinary men and women that do this work and their ability to continue to quietly serve and protect even when their work goes unharolded. it becomes very demoralizing when in addition to being demoralized it is also attacked.

i think it is a great challenge for the military, the infrastructure twob feel under valued in that way they are way worse. in the end, i have always loved the idea that the most important inauguration in this country was not washington's it was adams, because it is the notion that the presidency, the government not not any one particular person, not any particular service member that participates in any of these organizations at any given times if the presidency itself is a sacred trust that we hand one generation to a next. so any and all that is concerned about that should look at that themselves. we're only as kbooz as the men and women that make us up.

>> the book, life under cover, o coming of age in the cia goes on sale tomorrow. thank you for being on the show this morning. and we have a little bit of time for a final thoughts, john hileman. >> the combination of the stories unfolding right now around turkey and the kurds and syria on one side, iran, giuliani and his role running shadow foreign policies, all of the politics of that and a jam packed week in washington with depositions on the hill today and others, this will be a very, very big week i think for donald trump going forward. >> that is where we're headed.

good morning, it is october 14th. here is what we have our eyes on this morning. chaahaos is surrounding the tru administration at home and abroad. the u.s. military is moving forward with plans to withdraw from the region creating confusion and violence. they are defending turkey as