who sort of see it as icky, yucky, don't like it and they're not going to like it if it flops into 2020. we are told the speaker wants to finish this up by the end of the year. >> mike allen live for us in washington, d.c. thank you very much. you can sign up for the newsletter at signup.axios.com. >> that does it for us on this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. syrian defense forces have been a strong ally of the united states. >> they didn't help us in the second world war, they didn't chep us with norm mapped did i. >> the united states of america did not give a green light to turkey to invade syria. >> he said i want to go in, but he's been telling me that for 2 1/2 years. he's ready do it. >> we have great concerns about civilian populations. >> we have spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the

kurds. >> president is very concerned bin stability in the region. >> they're there and we're here, many miles away. >> we have concern about isis fighters. >> we took care of isis. we captured 100% -- >> spoke to president macron of france today. >> they should go back to europe. many of them came from europe, but they should go back to germany, to france. >> we're going to be engaging allies around the world. >> our alliances in many cases have taken tremendous advantage of us. >> wow. president trump and vice president pence in their own words less than one week apart. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, october 15th. along with joe and me near washington we have david ignatius. nbc news correspondent julia ainsley. u.s. national editor at the financial times, edward loose. and ron fournier, he's president

of a detroit based firm. >> they're in charge of the detroit tyingers. >> thigers. how's that going for you. >> apparently it lies in the refereeing. >> all right. >> willie. >> hello. >> well, first of all, we can talk about nationals baseball second. >> just don't. >> i really think that i'm going to need to find a spot in my kitchen next to my picture and i'm going to put john bolton's next to it. >> no. >> because anybody that can come out way quote like that, which is, hey, how ya doing? >> you're backing into the news again. >> it's the only way to do it. >> mika, you know that. >> first of all, you can talk about the hand grenade, but how about the declaration immediately when he hears the quid pro quo, said i'm not going to be part of mr. sondland's and mr. mulvaney and mr. giuliani's drug deal. >> yeah, i mean -- >> we've heard that before.

but go ahead, willie. that's pretty amazing, isn't it? >> that's from the testimony of fiona hill yesterday, extraordinary testimony that we'll walk through. we've got to look at it from behind closed doors. where she reported that the national security adviser said i want nothing to do with this drug deal he's called it between rudy giuliani and the ukrainians. you'll remember that john bolton was resigned or fired depending on who you believe over this question. >> i've always been a big john bolton fan, as everybody on "morning joe" knows. secondly, the second most important story in washington, the nationals. david ignatius, i mean, he's going to have one of those, like, national beer drinking straws? >> we're 3-0 in the championship series. we don't get this in d.c. we have a bunch of politicians we have to look at and we have a great baseball team. >> a great baseball team, willie. and, man, they are on fire, aren't they? great pitching the first couple of games and just great hitting last night.

>> yeah, they won 8-1 last night. the game was never close. they went up 7-0. they're up 3-0 in the national league championship series. they can finish it off tonight with a sweep in washington at home in front of those fans and then they would have a week off before the world series as the yankees and astros battle it out again today. >> all right. >> by the way, willie, david said we're going to the world series and i've heard other people in washington say that. >> i wouldn't do that. >> could you remind them, i'm not saying this to be a jerk, remind them what happened in 2004. every team people on my side said we're going to the super bowl or, you know, my brother called me up at the end of the third quarter a couple super bowls ago and go can you believe the falcons are going to finally win a super bowl? and when youer th hear that you duck. >> even as good as the 2004 team, you don't want the early

shot of the champagne on ice and the tarps going up, just celebrate after the game. >> very good advice. >> i just wish you could come to d.c. to join us because they know, i won't say, important things are happening in the near future. >> right. >> you wanted to be here for that. >> it's not baseball. >> and what mika doesn't know. >> oh, lord. >> mika doesn't nope it, but she is going to a baseball game tonight. >> no, i'm not. my god. >> i went on stub hub last night. it starts at 8:00. >> okay. >> we want to talk about rugby? >> mika's into movies. >> thank you. former white house aide fiona hill testified for more than nine hours behind closed doors yesterday in the impeachment inquiry. a source tells nbc news that she told lawmakers that after john bolton learned of the efforts to get ukraine's government to investigate president trump's

political ponlopponents, boltond hill that he wanted no part fortunate, quotof the, quote, drug deal. bolton called giuliani a, quote, hand grenade and told her to report the situation to the national security adviser's top lawyer. details of her testimony were first reported by the new york times. hill also reportedly told lawmakers that giuliani ran a shadow foreign policy on ukraine and that she considered what was happening to be a clear counterintelligence risk to the united states. people familiar with her testimony tell "the washington post" that hill told lawmakers giuliani's policies circumvented u.s. officials and career diplomats in order to personally benefit president trump and was not coordinated with the officials responsible for carrying out u.s. foreign policy. it's just incredible. and nbc news also learned that

the white house tried to limit hill's testimony by raising the issue of executive privilege. in response, giuliani told nbc news, quote, i always liked and respected john. i'm very disappointed that his bitterness drives him to attack a friend falsely and in a very personal way. it's really ironic that john bolton is calling anyone else a hand grenade. >> we don't need to hear anymore of this, because what's fascinating and what rudy still doesn't understand is they went to the lawyers right after the meeting. they've got the transcripts. they got all the detailed. he can go on any, like, trumpist cranks, talk radio show, they've got the transcripts. they've got the evidence. >> right. >> this is like the end of matlock or perry macy. >> if you think about it, the national security counsel lawyer that she was advise god to, that is the same person as well as the cia general counsel who called the justice department

before we even had a whistleblower complaint. so when the president focuses on this whistleblower, it's this disloyal person who has created this experience against him, it wasn't one person, it was all of these people and it dates before this complaint. i think if it wasn't for the complaint itself, this would have surfaced. >> and this is a tough, beat reporter for over three decades, you had to cover the clint months arkansas and washington, you can sniff out bs. and the country is pretty good at that time. >> they were. it's pung geent now. >> it's all coming out. rudy is still lying. rudy and donald trump seem to be the only two people who aren't smart enough to cover their backsides legally. >> and not only is it all coming out, but it started with the president on live tv acknowledging that he broke the

law. >> the white house releasing a memo. >> exactly. >> saying what happened. i mean, these are now the corroborating, you know, stories that are coming out that are already backing up what the president has said himself. >> now we not only have the texts, now we're inside the meeting when the national security advisers called in a drug deal, a side deal. >> grenades. >> and talked about a hand grenade. and then of course you had to love fiona hill saying that she was reminded of alexander hague on that fateful day in 1981 when ronald reagan got shot and he claimed the constitution put him in charge. sondland said the same thing to her, i'm in charge of ukraine. no, actually you're not. >> and john bolton, you talk about somebody i'd be worry about, hell hath no fury like an eagle main yaniac scorn.

>> maniac's scorn. >> this is a very clear fine moment that there are patriots out there, it doesn't matter what their ideology is, there are, for the most part. that's why i've said, mike pence to bernie sanders would be a vast improvement over a president that does not respect constitutional norms, over a president who believes that the second amendment gives him unlimited power, as he said, who mocks federal judges, who calls the president enemies of the people, who is an ill liberal autocrat in training. here's a great incite into what he looks like even if you disagree with me. if somebody puts a president first before their president or ideology. >> it feels so unusual in this administration, but here we have

key witnesses to these events who are going congress and telling the truth and saying startling things about what happened, one after the other. the former ambassador, gordon sondland is set to testify later this week the truth. >> he didn't really have much of a choice now, does he? >> he doesn't. >> it's all there. >> there's so much documentary evidence that's out there that people i'm sure advised by their lawyers that they now have criminal lawyers and they're advised by their lawyers you need to tell the truth. >> sondland's boxed in. tell us, ed, if you will. give us the backstory on fiona hill. >> who is fiona hill? >> because we were talking before the show and you were talking about this extraordinary woman and her background. >> she was born and raised in my country, britain, in the northeast, very gritty part of england. >> near newcastle. >> near newcastle. >> for our viewers in america, roger bennett calls that the jersey shore. >> it was a tiny football club,

everybody hates newcastle. >> okay. >> don't ask me to explain why have some they just do. everybody does. everybody hates newcastle ezblee elites. >> exactly. and she came and applied for oxford cambridge, they didn't give her an interview. harvard talent spotted her and took her over the atlantic and she's been here ever since. but she sis a gritty, tough professional. is an expert on putin. written one of the best books on putin out there. >> it's critical. >> very hawkish. she worked for the bush administration. she's an example more broadly as i think marie yovanovitch of how professionals behave versus how political appointees act.

people like yovanovitch, fiona hill, and many others in this story are examples of those who serve a larger audience, namely the american people. and i think you're seeing that contrast really, really play out now. particularly in the foreign service. professional foreign service officer would not have said, i'm in charge on ukraine. >> right. >> definitely not. >> trump has talked about the deep state. we're talking about professionals like this who dedicate their lives to the country. >> willie. >> as ron, joe, and ed all point out, fiona hill is not a donor to the trump committee, she's not a trumpist, a hack, she's worked under president george w. bush, barack obama and then president trump. she's got experience, highly respected. richard haass said she's one of the smartest people he's come across and worked with. she's not there to protect the president. she's not there to protect a drug deal, as john bolton put it. if you read the reporting out of

her testimony yesterday, over nine hours, this meeting that we're talking about with the drug deal, this took place on july the 10th. so we're talking about more than two weeks before the phone call. so as if we needed anymore evidence that this is a deal that had been working on and been talked about for a long time before the phone call, there's your evidence right there that they were in a meeting with john bolton and fiona hill talking about what john bolton has now identified as a drug deal. >> you know, willie, what's also interesting is i'm just going to be fascinated over the next couple weeks to see how deep into stupid some of trump's radio allies want to wade. how deep into stupid some of his cable news friends want to wade. how some deep into stupid his bloggers want to wade. because you have one of his theories going up in smoke. poor lindsey graham. he runs the senate judiciary

committee and he would have got an "f" in first year evidence in any law school in america because had he no -- he was like -- he didn't even understand the concept of hearsay and when it's admissible in a court let alone there. but everyone was saying it's hearsay. no it's not. we have people in the room who heard the quid pro quo going on. we've got text messages. i can tell you i've worked in some law firms and i've worked in some law firms that did depos of pretty large corporations. those are grand slams. that's a washington nationals grand slam to center field to win the series and move on. that's what that is. and one other thing, willie, somebody brought up deep state. i am going to love to hear these usual trumpist suspects on cable news and talk radio call john

bolton a part of the deep state. they can't do it. they can't do it. donald trump -- >> maybe you can put a picture up. >> i can? >> yeah. >> willie, how funny is it going to be when a talk radio host goes the deep state led by john bolt on. >> wait a minute. >> and their audience goes wait a second. so, again, this is a serious question. >> yeah. >> they have to start asking, like sondland needs to ask himself, is he going to go to jail or is he going to tell the truth? is he going commit perjury or is he going to be honest? is he going defend donald trump who will throw him under the bus in a second? or is he going to try to stay out of jail so he can be with his family for the next ten or 20 years? and these talk radio people and these cable news shows have to ask themselves the same question. how long do you stick with a man who is so reckless that he's conducted what many people that listen to their audience, you know, their hero called a drug

deal? i mean, willie, that's the question. it's going to be fascinating to see. at some point one of them's going to say you know what? mike pence is actually a lot more conservative and he's not going to humiliate us, let's try that. >> people understand this equation of what has gone wrong, don't they willie? >> well, it's all out in the open. again, we don't need fiona hill's testimony although we have it now. we have the record of the phone call. we have the whistleblower report. we have the text messages. that's why it's so easy for the public to digest. there's a new poll that shows voters continue to support house democrats impeachment probe into president trump. a majority, 51% say they approve of the impeachment inquiry. 45% disapprove. voters split on whether president trump should be impeached and removed from office with 46% agreeing with that idea. 48% disagree, that's held pretty steady. 51% say the impeachment inquiry

selah get mate investigation is a legitimate investigation. 50.3% support impeaching president trump. so, again, joe, the president can't call one poll or another an outlier, that's the average of 500 or so polls that show a majority of americans support this inquiry. >> and you know, ed, it wasn't so long ago, maybe three weeks ago that the president said he was going to get worried if those numbers ever got over 50%. all of the fear and loathing, all of the weeping and mashing of teeth of democrats and whether they should start an impeachment inquiry, i think it's gone away. and it's gone away -- look at these poll numbers. they're overwhelming supportive of an inquiry. >> this is where the analogies with the clinton impeachment break down. >> right. >> because these polls have been so dramatic and so pronounced and so constant in the last three weeks. i think really this morning for the first time i was thinking

about this. there is a material chance that trump is going to be removed, one in three, one in four, whatever it might be. that this is moving so quickly that he's been caught out by himself more than anything else. so dramatically. and his foreign policy, which is the fate of ukraine of course is linked to all of this. it's disintegrating in such a terrible realtime fashion causing such anguish amongst republicans whose support he'll need in the senate. >> think about the parallels. you have this extraordinary ukraine story unfolding, blowing up like a hand grenade, a political hand grenade. everybody where are you kn everybody, you know, it's going to be dangerous for everyone. and there's a foreign policy that we haven't seen since iraq. i'd have to go back to 2006. >> you know. >> with the secretary where

violence really exploded. to think of a time when the united states was in the middle of something so -- so damaging on the international stage as what we're going through right now. >> so i think the tv images of our former allies being gunned down in syria, the people that our special forces fought with, the people who took down our adversaries in isis being now abandoned, i think that's powerful and clear to people in a way that the ukraine story still isn't quite. every day we have more evidence. but those polling numbers still pretty narrow. you know, it's pretty -- our country's pretty evenly split at 50 pointing some percent, a small majority. you feel that over time adam schiff and others are going to have to explain the ukraine story to people and say here's what fiona hill said, here's why john bolton said, here's why

this matters to you. but in terms of syria, people can see our policy is collapsing, russia, iran, syria are winning. >> and they can see it with eyes of the reporters on the scene like keir simmons. we'll go live to keir who is on the border between turkey and syria. keir, there are claims of a brokered ceasefire. what are you seeing and hearing on the scene? >> reporter: mika, there's no ceasefire on the ground here. what you can see behind me is syria and we have now been here for a number of hours watching turkish tanks move out of cover fire and then pull back again. if i just step out of the way, we can push into the town here and that is where we have been watching a battle take place between turkish forces and mostly kurdish forces regularly seeing turkish artillery land in this town. a town that turkey said it had taken three days ago. and this, remember, happening

just after president trump has picked up the phone to president erdogan, just after vice president pence has called for a ceasefire and said that he will come to the region, just after washington has announced sanctions on turkey. it is make nothing difference, as far as we can tell this morning, in syria. this is a bit will battle takte place inside a key town inside syria. the kurds now saying that they believe 275,000 civilians have been displaced by this fighting. so, you know, whatever the president does, there you can hear that artillery fire and you may see in a moment it land had the in fact, you can just see the smoke rising above the town. whatever the president does, the sound of his tweets are nothing in comparison -- there it is. and you can see the smoke. smoke in that town just rising

above it as those turkish shells land there. i was just trying to say that whatever the president does, you know, the power of his tweets are nothing compared with the sound of this turkish artillery landing on syrian towns this morning just here on the border with syria. >> keir, it's willie. this is extraordinary to see and hear war taking place on live television behind you. just for the benefit of our viewers, the state of play here, we've learned that the occurred have been forced to sorts of align with assad and damascus to preserve their own fate because the united states has stepped aside. who is fighting whom as we look at these pictures right now? >> reporter: well, it is the folk of war, willie. so you've got to be careful about what you say because, you know, you're trying to figure out what's going on is tricky in

any bast will any battle in the one is fast moving. i think what we're seeing are turkish forces targeting mostly kurdish forces in this town that was held by the kurds until, you know, just a week ago. you know, the kurds have now put their lotting, if you like, with president assad. and there are reports this morning of russians who obviously are aligned with damascus, russians arriving at former u.s. bases, just piles the humiliation on to the u.s. to see that if those reports are true. but at the same time, just as you look at these pictures, you just got to think about the civilians that will still inevitably be in this town. what we've been told is that this town has been hit by air munitions morning and night for three days. and, yet still the battle is

continuing. it does look as if those kurdish forces abandon by america are still holding out against this turkish assault. >> keir, this is david ignatius. i just wonder if you've had a moment to talk with any of the kurdish residents of the area that we're looking at and ask them what they think about the united states after our abandonment of their forces and leaving them in this terrible situation we're seeing in the pictures. >> reporter: yeah, i said it yesterday, you know, i'll say it again. it's just one story, one anecdote. but there are many kurds on this side of the border and one group of kurdish villagers we ran into on the way to filming our live shots yesterday. we said we're from american television and and they said oh, americans, cowards. so whatever president trump has to say about the kurds and his tweets, think the feelings are reciprocated, frankly. >> thank you very much. >> keir, we greatly appreciate

it. be safe. >> all right. >> this is the problem we have, ron, not just with our kurdish allies, but this is a problem we have with our european allies, it's a problem we have with our allies in asia. du donald trump has backed down to assad, he's backed down to putin there, he's backed down to the iranians there, he's allowing houston isis off the mat. he's backed down to kim jong-un. he's backed down to just about every tyrant in the world while criticizing our allies. it's -- he's seen across the world, despite his tweets, as a weak, weak man. in fact, the iranians, there were reports that the reason the iranians felt free to strike the saudi oil refineries is because they new donald trump would not respond. it would make him look weak. >> right. >> just like he looks weak with china now and those negotiations

in the weakness, this cravenness is catching up with the united states. they're on to him now. >> what made america -- what made the 21st century the great american century, our ability to rally the world against des speights and dictators and list the world to a better place. that's all being unwound right now. kurds won't fight for us again, they won't fight against isis for us. the european allies have noticed that the president of the united states has said let isis go to the european capitals. how do we ever put together another coalition. it's not just this president. the world is now viewing us through the actions of donald trump from now on. >> and it's not just military power, it's soft power, the eu now, the incoming ec commissioners are saying, you know what? we're going to have to look to china because we can't -- america is so unstable, we're going to start building more economic alliances with china. >> yeah. and to get back to ukraine, you

know, president zelensky has agreed to hold elections in eastern ukraine. the contested area with russian proxy war going on. without the russian proxy forces with drawing, it's an inconceivable he would have agreed do that, which is a concession to russia were we not in this context. he agreed last week. so you can see very, very quickly the reaction of other countries to acknowledge of trump's complete unreliability in the fact that his tweets make him a paper tiger, that he doesn't follow through on things. you can see people adjusting realtime to the possibility that, well, this is the america we've got live with. trump might be re-elected or he might be -- he might be removed but he might be re-elected. we've got to -- we've got to plan on the basis that america as we knew it is over. >> and angela merkel basically said as much a year or two ago.

you now have the world looking at the american president as erratic, as weak, a coward, as keir said, and he's going to be even more politically weakened in the coming weeks and months because of this scandal that's erupting. >> and david talks about how this is so clear, especially to voters and people who are in these polls. and especially as we're seeing people who trump supporters would rally behind, like a retired marine colonel who spoke to ken dilanian yesterday on the record, he just retired in the spring. he fought alongside the kurds and said they see this as a betrayal and that the president absolutely could have stopped this. it is so rare as a journalist to get someone on the record who is that recently retired to talk about this. but these are the kind of people who are standing up now. and it comes down to does the president, you know, value the opinions of experts anymore or is it just people who are loyal to him who don't have the credibility or the expertise? >> you know, we had a

high-ranking general walk up to us in the airport yesterday and. >> oh my gosh. >> -- got about as high as you can get talking you about how depressing it is that everything he's fought for his entire life, everything he's lived for and worked for his entire adult life is getting wiped away. >> that's how my dad felt. >> that's exactly how your dad spoke when he was -- he was dying, that everything he fought for was being wiped away. and the question is, when are republican senators on the hill, when are trump apoll gifogyistsg to call this out and demand change. why are they so scared of mike pence? i don't understand why they're so scared. you heard mike pence talking. >> i don't get the fear of trump. >> pence was the conservative, right? >> yeah. >> so why wouldn't you want the

conservative as your commander and chief instead of a guy who kowtows to china. begging china to do dirty work for him and kowtows to kim jong-un, kowtows to turkey, helps iran. it's -- it's mind bog. >> stibogging. >> still hi head, more on rudy giuliani. federal prosecutors now looking into his personal business dealings. we'll also set the stage for tonight's fourth democratic debate. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> we have a high impact nor'easter coming up the east coast he was go through tomorrow. that's a high impact travel day, d.c., baltimore, philly, new york and boston are the right now it's a heavy rain event through the south. we need it, it's been dry here. it's an umbrella day from louisiana through southern arkansas through mississippi, alabama, georgia, and even into areas of south carolina. what we'll deal with the next 48 hours, eventually this storm will combine with the storm

through the great lakes and that's what will come up the east coast. and we're not going to see -- when you say nor'easter people think ice and snow and coastal flooding. this one will be a very strong storm so it will have strong gusty winds with it and heavy rain. it's not cold enough thankfully for snow in almost high areas. so i paused this as 6:00 p.m. wednesday. d.c., you're in the clear. so the worst of it for washington, d.c. is going to be during the day wednesday and getting better as we go through about 5:00 to 6:00 p.m. but that means from philadelphia, new york city, hartford, the heaviest rain will be rush hour on wednesday. and then we'll take that storm up to the north. course we have that yankees game as we go through wednesday night too in the bronx and that's very much in jeopardy with that rain forecast. by thursday everything clears out and the rainfall predictions here possibility of 2 to 3 inches of rain, one of the heaviest rain events in the northeast that we've seen in a while. we'll have updates for that storm for you tomorrow. you're looking at new york city. it's going to be a beautiful day

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♪ you've got a friend in me ♪ got a friend in me ♪ you've got troubled, i got 'em too ♪ ♪ and there isn't anything i wouldn't do for you ♪ ♪ stick together ♪ you've got a friend in me >> oh my god. you know, i just -- >> yes. >> i like people that put it out there. look at that outfit. >> he's tweeted that we should vote for him. >> willie, you know, he is tweeting that we should vote for him. and before he went on and did whatever he's doing in that outfit, which of course had a dollar for every time i wore that outfit on a friday night.

>> oh, yeah. >> whew. but anyway, donald trump, by the way, in case you've been sleeping for a couple years, he's president of the united states, believe it or not, and he wrote vote for good guy sean spicer tonight on dancing with the stars. he has always been there for us even when i threw him under the bus. so, spicy still. man, he's putting it out there. >> spicy survives another week. i don't fully understand the scoring on dancing with the stars. i confess i haven't watched a lot of it. but somehow he will be back next week. i think perhaps the president rallying the troops as smoke rises over northeast syria and the impeachment inquiry continues, the president tweeting that his supporters should vote on dancing with the stars for that gentleman right there, former press secretary shaep spicer. >> sean spicer. >> that's something to worry about considering we have nothing else going on across the world. here is the parallel -- >> please don't make one.

>> we went over for a wedding, somebody got married over in britain, i forget who. one of the -- who was it? >> yes. >> it was -- >> i think it was william. no, we didn't go to that one. william. i think he's the one who will be king next after charles. we go over there we meet ed who is the chance for the next -- >> he's so nice. >> wonderful guy, liverpool fan, we had to bet on something, i forget what, and i ended up -- on a saturday night. but didn't he do this great transformation and now he's like a big dancer and marathoner? >> he did. he lost his seat in the 2010 election. he was the big government figure. he lost his seat. he then went on dancing with the stars, swept the floor with it, got even bigger inaugural audiences than sean spicer for that. >> really? >> and slightly less loud outfits i think. >> all right. >> and that rebooted his career.

he then became chair of a football club. >> fantastic. >> he's a big cheese in norwich. >> coming up on "morning joe," we're going to look at the 2020 democrating democratic field well new polls on tonight's debate. we'll be right back. ht's debat. we'll be right back. here's the thing about managing multiple clouds for your business. when you've got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds- things can get a bit cloudy for you. but now, there's the dell technologies cloud, powered by vmware. a single hub for a consistent operating experience

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welcome back to morning joe. it's 43 past the hour. joining us now we have the cofounder of axios mike allen here with us and also jason johnson, politics and journalism professor at morgan state university. great have you on set with us as we continue the conversation. we're also getting a look at where the race stands in the democratic field ahead of tonight's big debate. new national poll shows massachusetts senator elizabeth warren and former vice president joe biden in a dead heat according to the latest poll. and vermont senator bernie

sanders follows in third with 11% of support, down five points since last week. warren, biden, and sanders are statistically tied in the early voting state of new hampshire. according to the newest franklin pierce university boston herald poll. warren has 25% of support among democratic voters return eight points since last month. biden is up three points at 24%. sanders at 22%, down seven points among the state's voters. all three are within the poll's 4.8 margin of error. what do you think, joe? >> a lot to digest. so, at this point i'm just -- i'm going to be irritating and sound like all the -- >> just now? >> -- all the nerds -- at this point the national polls really mean nothing. it meant a lot for trump because rising tide lifted all boats there. but we have such a divided

electorate in the democratic party, if i hear that somebody's doing great in wab and nancy pelosi, that' iowa and new hamp that's great. and the fact that biden hasn't dropped a vote in south carolina tells me that the most important voters in the democratic primary, black voters, specifically black women, haven't moved. >> they have moved slightly to elizabeth warren had why he's become more competitive. but here's the thing. it doesn't matter how close you in iowa, it's how much organization you can get done on the ground. i have former students in iowa, everybody's ground game has been excellent there. then you have your lower tier candidates like mayor pete has been rising up, yang putting more money there. harris said i'm moving to iowa. >> by the way, ask crist akrist

don't work. >> it doesn't win anything. but at the end of the day they'll be organized in iowa. joe biden has been teflon. no matter what seems to happen? >> why is that? is it in part because you've had so many other democratic candidates inexplicably attacking barack obama's healthcare plan, his immigration record -- >> taking it from all sides. >> but biden is the one defender of barack obama up on that stage. >> again, he's always claimed i am the continued legacy. castro tried it for five minutes, it didn't work fvery well for him in the last debate. look at impeachment numbers. the 1 in demographic in this country that's going to favor impeachment has been black folk. and black women it's in the 70s or 80s. and joe biden seems like the number one person who could not only drive in impeachment argument, since it's pretty much been about him, but he seems

like the guy that can beat trump. and as long as he seems like the guy that can beat trump he's going to lead. >> he's like the comfort candidate. >> exactly. >> but that's not in a conn condescending way, he gives people stability. he's proven it. >> i have heard so many of my friends that voted for donald trump over the past let's say six months to a year say, i'm just exhausted. >> and this hunter stuff. >> i can't handle the tweets, i wish he'd stop the tweets. i'm so exhausted. he wears me out. i wish he'd just be quiet. and i'm not so sure that there wouldn't be -- there are a lot of people that aren't going to vote for a democrat. i'm not so sure there's not going to be a pretty big undervote for those people who are exhausted if, let's say, their choice is joe biden against donald trump. >> and, again, you're talking about people who supported donald trump. these aren't people who oppose

donald trump who may just stay home because they are exhausted. hunter biden, by the way, mika brought up his name, just gave an interview to abc news. we're getting a look at it ahead of the debate tonight. the timing was interesting that they put this out the morning of the debate. joe biden will be asked about this at some point tonight. he called the idea that he was working with ukraine a ridiculous conspiracy. he says the president and his rudy giuliani are pursuing a ridiculous conspiracy. said he had no ethical lapses and promised that when he said joe biden becomes president he will not work for any foreign countries or sit on boards of companies overseas. here's a piece of that interview with abc news. >> your last name wasn't bide done you think you would have been asked to be on the board of burisma? >> i don't know. probably not. but that's, you know, i don't think that there's a lot of things that would have happened in my life that if my last name wasn't biden. >> why did you leave the fwhord april? >> it's a five-year term. >> and you chose not to continue? >> i chose not to.

>> why? >> i think it's pretty obvious why. >> this is your opportunity to say why. >> well, because i think that it's become -- this is what becomes a distraction. because i have to sit here and answer these questions. so that's why i've committed that i won't serve on any boards or i won't work directly for any foreign entities when my dad becomes president. what i regret is not taking into account that there would be a rudy giuliani and a president of the united states that would be listening to this -- this ridiculous extra spr id ridiculous conspiracy idea. did i make a mistake? well maybe in the grand scheme of things, yeah. but did i make a mistake based upon some ethical lapse? absolutely not. >> so, joe, the ridiculous conspiracy that he is talking about there is one that fiona hill was testifying about up on capitol hill yesterday and john bolton called a drug deal. >> well, it's been debunked by

everybody. i mean, everybody that was in government then, it's been debunked by everybody across europe, by the imf. it's been debunked by rupert murdoch's "wall street journal" on the front page while the opinion page was whipping up conspiracy theories, they obviously didn't read the front page of rupert murdoch's "wall street journal" who called it a discredited conspiracy theory, something along ploes thothose i thought hunter did very well. >> that was. >> >>own it. i love to see a lot of media people here is a oh, it's terrible. it's terrible when your children might get jobs because -- because they're connected to their parents. i would like -- i want to hear that. and donald trump, the last -- >> in this building, right? >> the last human being on the

face of the earth that can complain about children getting places because of their father. >> that's right. joe, first welcome to nat's nation. >> oh, stop it. >> rub it in. >> that's baseball. >> what we saw there is the hunter biden come at me strategy. and we saw it in july with the new yorker article when he sat with adam and gave him astonishingly frank interviews. but ask anything, went through everything and we're seeing it again in this extensive abc interview. one way that national polls do matter, like they're helping biden in this way. i've always said people don't vote like people, that's your life experience. but it's funny. what campaigns are hearing this year, people sore concernare so about beating donald trump, they're saying maybe i like to candidate but i think someone in

michigan michigan, wisconsin or pennsylvania would like biden. >> why is it taken joe biden so long to punch back aggressively? because i'll tell you what a republican would do. >> yeah. >> as a former republican, if somebody -- i said let me tell you, this guy is so sleazy, he is the sleazy tactics are beneath contempt. >> you said that. >> no, what i'm saying, i have been all that i have been through with my family, all that my grandchildren have been through. >> i agree with this. >> -- they're dragging not only me. >> thank you. >> -- they are dragging my wife, they are dragging my children -- >> our personal life. >> -- they are dragging my son who survived an accident that killed his mother and sister, they're dragging them through the mud and the pain that my grandchildren are feeling, donald trump, because he is so desperate to continue with his job and help the chinese and help the russians and help -- da, da, da, it's not that hard.

why -- [ multiple conversations ] why can't democrats fight like republicans? >> i don't know where the uncle joe is that earned the nickname uncle joe. he used to be a guy that said a guy like donald trump i'd take him behind the bleachers in high school. >> he has said these things. >> but he needs to say it aggressive. when it comes to your son, he should be out there saying come for me, come for me. you got a problem, come for me, donald trump. >> he said, leave my family out of this. >> are you not mad about -- >> he's got to show more anger and more disgust. mika, as you said, is he comfort food. he's mashed potatoes and gravy and everything else. that's what we want in ohio. >> he's the comfort candidate. >> so the question is, why can't he do that? why can't he -- he's saying be a man, pick on somebody your own size. stop attacking -- mika, it's one thing. saying you're going to beat up somebody behind the gym when you're 78 years old, that doesn't sell. >> he said leave my family out

of this. he has really punched back against these things. >> not hard enough. >> and we haven't aired them. >> not hard enough. i would take the man down and just let people know, you attack my family, i'm going to grind your political bones to then wh or not away in the win -- >> h debate stage. >> that would be unbrand for him and very fitting the times. you know this, mika, he knew that people were going to come at him. part of his mental getting ready for this, he knew he was going to be torn down so he's ready and that's why it surprises people that we haven't heard more of this. >> okay. >> i think the hesitation will be shown in punching back in the last few weeks is going to be partly because where the uncle joe? he was amtrak joe. he took the train. hunter was on the board of amtrak. there are some -- there are some awkwardnesses there. >> well, hunter was also on the board of the largest bank in delaware. but you see what hunter just

did? he owned it. attack if it. >> that's the right thing to do. but there is an awkwardness there because it was a democratic process that got him on the largest ukrainian company. >> again, you asked the question, david. if somebody says, oh, your son's on the board of amtrak, i go oh really donald? well your daughter is. >> in the west wing. >> -- is on phone calls with foreign leaders. you just put her on. you let your daughter sit down for you when you get board at international conferences. again, you know -- >> biden wants a contrast between himself and his kids and president trump and his kids. he does not want to say, see, we're all alike, you've got ivanka i've got hunter. i think that what hunter needs to say, i made serious errors of judgment. i went to work for a gas company in ukraine that is widely described as a corrupt company and while my father was talking about ukraine what's not appropriate for me.

because i think that's -- the public gets that. >> he should have never been there. >> he shouldn't have been there and he should just say -- >> own your self-nepotism. >> what he should own is telling the truth. and i think that biden's problem is he needs to be tough and scrappy, but he needs to look america in the eye and say as i look back on this, i probably shouldn't have talked about ukraine when my son was working for them. >> if he doesn't want to be compared to hillary clinton, he shouldn't act like -- >> stop being so cautious. >> say i screed wed up. i had so much going on in my family with beau, i should have gone to my son and said get off the board right now. you kont do it. >> it's not against the law what he was doing. >> we were just talking about this before. america loves sessions. i don't think anybody in this country is shocked that he was working on this board. >> it wasn't okay how much money she made and then she railed against people making money off

state universities. >> but it's not him. i don't think people that are mad about it. >> it's not him. the thing is, hillary, just like bill, they never embraced the crises in front of them. that's what joe biden needs to do. i screwed up. >> all right. >> i've had so much practice saying that. >> yes, you have. >> and it's so easy. people go, okay, we'll do better next time. coming up we'll have bob costa joining us and john kasich will be joining us just ahead on "morning joe." be joining us just ahead on "morning joe." welcome to fowler, indiana. home to three of bp's wind farms. which, every day, generate enough electricity to power over 150,000 homes. and of course, fowler. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere.

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welcome to fowler, indiana. home to three of bp's wind farms. which, every day, generate enough electricity to power over 150,000 homes. and of course, fowler. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere. the idea that you're going to strip churches of their tax exempt status if you don't accept same-sex marriages, i

don't think he understood what he was saying. that means going to war with mosques and churches and organizations that may not have the same rhee lithous views that i do. going after churches or islamic centers or other religious centers in this country, that's going to deepen the divisions that we're already experiencing. . >> buttigieg. welcome back to "morning joe." here we are live in washington, d.c. along with joe, willie and me, willie's in new york, we have "the washington post" bob costa joining us. jason johnson is still with us. heidi joins the set along with david ignatius. good to have you all. great group this morning. >> you know, i get so tired, willie, of having people talk about, oh, whether they going to have their sister soldier moment talking about what bill clinton did in 1992. but i think in this case where everybody else on the stage is darting far left, biden is still sort of firmly in the center.

this is a good move for mayor pete for a couple reasons. first of all, tell people what they can and can't do in their own churches is unconstitutional. kurt anderson was saying that. it's also pretty extreme. and also running around saying you're going to confiscate guns, probably not the best move, as mayor pete said. hey, we got 90% with us on expanded background checks, we've got a majority with us on banning military-style assault weapons, why don't we start there? so he's really trying to carve out his own space on the ideological spectrum there. i think it's a smart thing to do. >> yeah. and also, joe, on this day of the democratic debate, mayor pete is going to put up an ad attacking by name elizabeth warren and bernie sanders on their medicare for all plans. he's going to go out and say this is not realist economy, we can't afford it, we can't do it, we can't eliminate private

insurance. he's going to those places of we're going to take your guns and eliminate tax exempt status of churches, mosques, historically black universities, he's going right to those pressure points as if to pull the party back toward the center and join joe biden there. >> yeah. and, you know, this isn't, jason, this isn't -- it isn't just evangelical christians that you're going to get. beto needs to realize that in 2008 when barack obama was swept into office it was black voters, it was hispanics that killed the same sex marriage ballot initiative now the california. so you're going to get not only evangelicals, you're going to get people in black churches, you're going to get jews in orthodoxed churches, muslims, you're going to get everybody. >> there's a couple things going on. in california it was different. it wasn't just the black voters,

which isn't that much in california, about 6% of the population in the is what mayor buttigieg's trying to do here. they believe that i stumble by joe biden helps them the most. that is the person he's targeted. every single person in this campaign has like a pacing car, right? that's the guy that they fall that's the person i'm picking up from. he's always thought it was joe biden. >> do you think he's right there? >> i think he's right in this regard. he doesn't have the support that joe biden does. it's not just eight years, it's the african american support and the latino up. >> what have you, since you've been focusing on this, what have you discovered on why does he so poorly among black voters? you know, they had polls several months ago and every white person on the upper east side and west side fell in love with mayor pete and he was polling at zero among african-american voters in indiana. >> yes. >> 1% in south carolina. why? >> there's a couple reasons. number one, people don't know him and there are candidates

being seen much more viable. even cory booker or kamala harris. and there was a shooting that happened in the peak of his campaign. and lastly this, i want to make this clear. it's not homophobia. a lot of it is age. what a nice young man, but i'm not going to elect a 37-year-old to be president of the united states. i don't think people realize enough about how the older black population in south carolina has an image of what they see a president as being, and it's not a 37-year-old kid. >> what you to think? >> politics is about more than being a pacing car or trying to figure out your lane. mayor buttigieg and everyone else in this race has to figure out do they have a counter to the economic populism that's being advocated by senator warn? her performance is because of her message. that message is powerful and it competes with trump's own economic populism. so you can score points on

different issues going after congressman o'rourke or others, but where's that core competition with her message? >> it's not enough to say wait a second, you're going to take away private health insurance from 165 million americans? >> she's speaking to the grievances people have with the global economy. instead of taking the immigrant as the target, she's taking the company as the target. >> we have yet to see her policies really challenged, so it will be interesting zplfs she has attacks. she attacks assets. a lot of people say it's time you tax assets and not just raise taxes. >> you can do that. >> address it. >> there's just not enough money. i said this about donald trump and his promises in 2016. i say it now. there is not enough money for a country that's $23 trillion in debt to pay for one tenth of what she's proposing. now that, you know, when somebody brought that up on the stage, that inconvenient truth, she said something like i don't know why we're running just to say what we can't do.

well, you know what? i can't get a rocket pack on my back and fly to mars after the show. that doesn't mean that, you know, i don't love america or whatever. she can't do it. it's impossible. we don't have the money. >> the numbers don't -- >> who is going to bring it up? >> joe biden has. >> also, i think her idea that america really is hungry for radical change, let's overturn the way we deliver healthcare -- >> look at donald trump right now. they're hungry for stability. >> they're ruhungry for somethi quite different. there's an enormous open for a droot speak powerfully about foreign policy. our country's being humiliated by the poll sives donald trump. democrats have been in a rush for the exit, they want to get out of afghanistan even faster than president trump. >> right. >> there's a moment tonight where a democrat can say -- >> you would think that would be an opportunity for joe biden. >> the president is taking us down. >> yes. >> so, heidi, wouldn't the argument for democratic

socialism do much better in, you know, 2008 after the crash than in 2019 when we have unemployment is at 3.4, 3.5%? >> well, bernie sanders did pretty well in the last cycle in 2016. but, yes, to your point, elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are both going to be focused on in a way that bernie sanders was not in 2016. i was one of the reporters who was covering hillary and i was looking at bernie's plans and we all knew that they didn't add up and yet there was just this fever behind him that really i think overlooked the fact that those numbers did not add up. and so that's something that in this cycle you're going to see both him and elizabeth warren have to account for. he's going to be attacking her as being a capitalist but then there will be others on the stage who are going to be looking finally at these numbers, these national debt

numbers. donald trump has doubled the national debt. it's unbelievable that -- >> he promised that he would pay off the debt and as a guy who ran for office, p because becau wanted to balt budget, republicans used to like balancing the budget, it's shocking that he runs up massive debt. >> if reps republicans cared about that they can't be supporting governor sanford's candidacy. but to 2008, it took as heidi said, the 2016 run of senator sanders to play the foundation for democratic socialism. without the standards campaign, you don't vahave a candidacy. to me, sanders is the gold water in this pal pollsi. change the party for the future. sanders may not ever be the democratic nominee, by chamgds the w

changed the way they talk about socialism. >> she said you americans would make the worse socialists in the world. you said you don't have it in your blood. but i want to go back to something that bob said. and i think it is the sent -- it is the question of our time. and that is, how do you connect with the working class, middle class american, that's not code for white, that's working class, middle class america that used to file in to general motors, 30,000 people file into a plant, they make cars, they go home, they have a good life, they send their kids to college, state schools that only cost maybe a thousand bucks a semester. it's the american dream. that's gone. >> >> he it's nevyes. >> it's never coming back. we have these radicals answers from donald trump and those on the left on how we're going to deal with it. this isn't an american problem,

it's a problem in western civilization. >> yes. >> there's a reason why the numbers -- globalization is looked upon skeptically in the west. globalization actually is looked on favorably in the rest of the developing world. >> yeah. >> here's the thing. i literally used to drive by that lordstown plant in ohio that everybody talked about. i have students whose parents lost their jobs when they went from four shifts to three shifts. the radicalism that some of us sort of see here is actually the only solution that folks out there are seeing at this point. >> right. >> it doesn't just explain donald trump, it explains elizabeth warren. bob is right. i don't just talk about elizabeth warren's popularity. if you connect her to bernie sanders you've got 40% of the democratic base who is like this isn't working. it hasn't been working for 20 years. it's not just enron, not just the financial crisis, not just my kids on opioids. i need something who will do something radical and different. alabama won with yes we cannot weapon could after we put together a committee. so that idea it works as far as people thinking you can win this

way in a general election, but it's not going to make people excited. that's why warren and sanders even though he's dropping now have been doing so well. the big news here in washington was testimony by white house aide fiona hill. willie. >> she spent nine hours behind closed doors giving her testimony in the impeachment inquiry yesterday. let's talk about some of what she said. a source telling nbc news fiona hill told lawmakers that after national security adviser john bolton learned of the efforts to get ukraine's government investigate president trump's political opponents, bolton told hill that he want nod part ed n what he called the, quote, drug deal. it also involved white house chief of staff mick mulvaney. hill testified that bolton called giuliani a, quote, hand grenade, and told hill to report the situation to the national security counsel's top lawyer. the details of her testimony first reported by "the new york times," she said that giuliani

ran a shadow foreign policy on ukraine and she considered to be a clear counterintelligence risk to the united states. people familiar with her testimony told "the washington post" that hill told lawmakers giuliani's policy, quote, circumvented u.s. officials and career diplomats in order to personally benefit president trump and was not coordinated with the officials responsible for carrying out u.s. foreign policy. nbc news also has learned that the white house tried to limit hill's testimony by raising the issue of executive privilege. in response to all this, rudy giuliani told nbc news, quote, i always liked and respected john bolton, i'm very disappointed that his by thorness drives hit to attack a friend falsely. it's ironic that john bolton is calling anyone else a hand grenade when he's described as an atomic bomb. that's a quote from rudy giuliani. apparently now john bolton will be part of the deep state out to

get donald trump. >> i saw this this morning. this is such a contrast, willie, to what we saw during the mueller investigation where no one was cooperating and here they are coming out of the woodwork. what's going to happen this week is what my colleague called a revolt of the state department. after you saw sondland is going to testify this week, you're going to see george kent today who is another state department official who called this campaign against yovanovitch a classic disinformation campaign. you're going to see mr. mckinley who was a deputy to mike pompeo testify later this week. of course this is all behind closed doors. but we are told that he was very disappointed in the way that pompeo failed to protect his diplomats. if you saw that interview on nashville television and the way that pompeo reacted to the fact that mckinley is now going to be cooperating as well, there's so much more information to come

out. it's all behind closed doors, but we are all getting the highlights here. and it's no longer a question of what happened, it happened. we have the texts, we have all of this testimony now, they're just going to be connecting the dots of how they did it. >> so, bob costa, the white house has done everything in its power to slow down or stop the impeachment inquiry saying publicly it won't cooperate. but what fiona hill proves is that there are people who are willing to go around that and there may be too many holes in the dam for the white house to plug all of them when a career national security intelligence officer and an official like fiona hill who has worked under three different presidents including george w. bush, barack obama and donald trump is willing to sit down and say exactly what she saw including in a meeting on july the 10th, two weeks before the july 25th phone call that's become so infamous that this plan between the white house, rudy giuliani, and ukraine was already in motion. >> willie, the white house has been preparing for a one-front

war with congress for months. pat sip aloneny sending documents. but a whole other front is hopping, as heidi was saying. officials at the national security apparatus are willing to come forward. i keep thinking back to my text messages and phone calls with ambassador bolton a month ago where he was cryptic as ever saying i will have my say when the time comes, i will have my say. and i kept asking ambassador bolton what does that mean? he just kept saying i will have my say. through some of his associates, he is beginning to have that say. >> do you know what that means, bob? >> that's not good. >> that means that be john bolton has been in washington long enough to know you don't have to do the short play every day and that's a big problem for donald trump who is not a day tra trader but deals to survive the next ten minutes. so this scene is he markable.

sondland, the ambassador to the eu gets angry when bolton is trying to stop the appointment with the ukraine president. and he actually shouts out the quid pro quo in the meeting. we have to have a meeting because giuliani said they get a meeting if they do the investigation. of course, this is the same sondland who said he didn't know if the president was talking about a real quid pro quo, but he was telling -- >> the quid pro quo wasn't corrupt. >> we have the quid pro quo and that's when bolton shuts it down, talks about the drug deal and tells fiona hill to immediately go talk to the lawyers. that is a -- you know what? that -- that is a -- that is the end of season three of succession. >> oh my gosh. >> the return of john bolton, this was going to be a dramatic

moment when bolton himself testifies, because it looks like is he prepared to do that. bob costa's text messages are the best indication. >> prepared to tell the truth, by the way. >> he describes what happened in those weeks of july when, you know, the president's foreign poli policy has basically been dell ga delegated to his private lawyer, fixer that people across the country are beginning to rebel. that's the fascinating thing about john bolton, many things you can say, but he is an experienced bureaucrat. >> right. >> he has been around the state department, u.s. government for three decades now and you can imagine him watching this and saying, wait a minute, you know, i am not as national security adviser going preside over this delegation of foreign policy to a private attorney, you know, and all sorts of suspicious deals. we're just beginning to hear the details of what rudy giuliani was doing in ukraine, i promise you. >> this is going to be

something. >> this is a guy who has been fighting inside bureaucracies for what? h his policy goals were for years. that's been the knock against him. he was too much of a fighter and his elbows were -- >> and not a team player. well, in this case we're discovering he may not have been a team player. he may have gotten pretty angry and told fiona hill take note, r go see the lawyer, enough. >> it's all about country first. >> coming up -- >> go ahead. >> i agree. some of this is territorial. these are people who have been bureaucrats for decades and i'm not going to let rudy giuliani march in here and dictate foreign policy where he hasn't read anything or looked at a book. >> now are there side deals going on in ukraine? good lord, what else is in that secret server? >> and of course you'll have that moment where hill testified yesterday that she was reminded

of alexander hague after reagan got shot claiming that he had authority, if you read the constitution, because you had sondland who had no authority over ukraine claiming that he was in charge had t. doesn't happen that way. >> nope. >> just an observation really quickly, because i don't really do observations, it's the first time. >> need to let it out. >> i do. i need express myself better. >> go ahead. >> we were driving into washington yesterday, and i must say when you live in new york for more than a week suddenly washington, which seems -- >> it's dazzling. >> seemed very large to me when i first moved here from pensacola, slid you come from new york and you think, okay, this is kind of a small town. buildings are small, everything's small. and i just -- i say, you know, donald trump came into this town and he looked around and said this a cow town. i -- i've owned new york city. i played the press. i played the people.

i was always a step ahead. and i said to mika, i said, it just reminds me every guy that comes in here who's president of the united states thinks the same thing. i'm the smartest person that's ever walked through the gates of the white house. and yet, washington always wins. talking about grinding people to the, you know, their political bones to dust, if you think that you can win in washington without knowing how washington works, washington will destroy you. >> we're still in the fifth inning here. i mean, whether washington's going to win here, i've been struck by the way that trump came to town. elbows -- >> i'm not talking about impeachment, i'm just talking about people who are actually patriots who come here to serve, whether it's in state department or the dod, they're not going to let some -- some reality host from new york city come down and change the rules. >> well, as you often say on

this program, republicans have let him to do just that. >> yes. >> this big, loud, elbows out, new york whatever he is, republican, democrat, came to town and blew away an entire political party. they just became supine. now maybe washington, meaning decent people who want to serve their country, people who work in the military, people who work in dcongress, maybe those peopl are going reassert themselves and take power back from that big guy. but so far it's tough for me to make that prediction. >> to your point, joe -- >> but -- >> the fact that this happened, trump calls zelensky a day after mueller testified tells you everything you need to know about to your point about the hubris of this president and the fact he hasn't had any guardrails. >> as far as the checks and balances go, robert, the same president who has attacked the

others, has called for a muslim ban, who's attacked people of color, who did what he did after charlottesville, who has his fans chanting send her back, this is a guy who saw in 2018 an extraordinarily diverse congress being elected. and it's very important to also note in 2018 that the reaction to the access hollywood president was the election of the most women to the united states congress in american history. yes, americans do check and balance their presidents. >> and suburban voter, the retiring republican, those are the people on my radar as a reporter. how do they process this president in the fifth inning as they think about their own fate and they're own party. but who you said washington always wins, i thought you were talking about the nationals. >> i was. >> and i woke up for this.

>> oh my goodness. i'm going tonight and i'm going to wake up tomorrow. >> no, you're not. >> got you a ticket purchase you'. david, you going to be there tonight? >> no, sir. but i'm rooting now you. >> huge fans. >> we are not going. coming up on "morning joe," we're going live to the white house. hans nichols will join us to talk about the sanctions that are being put on turkey, so-called sanctions. also independent senator angus king will be our guest. also independent senator angus king will be our guest. here's the thing about managing multiple clouds for your business. when you've got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds- things can get a bit cloudy for you. but now, there's the dell technologies cloud, powered by vmware. a single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. that should clear things up.

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you can hear that artillery fire and you may see in a moment it land. in fact, you can just see the smoke rising above the town. whatever the president does, the sound of his tweets are nothing in comparison -- there it is. and you can see the smoke in that town just rising above it

as that -- as those turkish shells land there. i was just trying to say that whatever the president does, you know, the power of his tweets are nothing compared with the sound of this turkish artillery landing on syrian towns. >> that was nbc's keir simmons reporting from northeast syria in our last hour of "morning joe." and joining us now from the white house is nbc news correspondent hans nichols. hans, good morning. >> reporter: morning. >> the trump administration yesterday announced what it calls tough sanctions on turkey. >> reporter: yeah. >> for the invasion that president trump blessed president erdogan to carry out just a week ago. how does that work? >> reporter: well, in some ways what we heard from the white house is a clear shift in policy. it's almost an admission, willie, that where the president had warned, the president said wornt happen, his old policy wasn't working out because they had to do the sanctions. i mean, there have been so many stunning shifts, posture changes, however you want to put it from the white house in the last five, six days. i mean, on friday we have the

secretary of defense saying that the u.s. wasn't abandoning the wurds, then on sunday he's anounsing the withdrawal. then the president announces the total and complete withdraw and there will be few troops left. when we look at the sanctions we have to look at what they do and don't do. they don't go after erdogan. they go after his sektscretarief energy and defense. they're leaving the space for erdogan. they could go ahead and sanction erdogan. this is just 14 hours ago, the white house didn't have an answer on white president is still planning to invite erdogan to the white house in 30 days. so the president is sanctioning half of his government or at least major players of it and yet he's still offering thin variety to the white house. i think the other big change here is that it seems as though the white house is now owning or at least partially owning what's happening in syria, because when you start mediating a ceasefire, attempting to, start engaging in shuttle diplomacy, you basically own the problem.

david's been through dozens of these throughout his career. it's exceedingly challenged to broker cease fires, especially when the two parts are so far apart like we hear with erdogan. another amazing thing about this is erdogan as the president is announcing his sanctions is writing in the "wall street journal" saying, look, if people don't settle this, figure this out, i'm going to release all of these refugees back up to europe, some threats, some hints from erdogan there. similar to the president's own warnings on this. guys. >> nbc's hans nichols at the white house. hans, thanks so much. joe, yesterday you had vice president pence with a lot of attorney faces and head shake saying that he has to, you know, they're going to put tariffs on erdogan and the turkish government for, again, something that the president of the united states blessed just last week. >> right. >> he opened the door to northeast syria, to turkey, and now he's sanctioning turkey for doing the thing he allowed them to do. >> and conservative republicans are shocked this week on the hill that members of isis may be escaping.

the president promised last week that they would escape and go -- infiltrate the countries that are our closest allies in europe. so, david, what happens next? what are you hearing from sources on the hill and around washington? >> this is the most confusion moment i can remember in foreign policy from one hour to the next. people aren't sure just what the u.s. are doing. >> what are your sources inside the trump administration telling you? >> so, first, within the military this has been a heart representederi rendering experience for soldiers in syria. it's the worst thing that can happen is to see your comrades abandoned on the battlefield and left to die and it's been a visceral experience for them. i'm told that basically all of our forces will be out of syria by the end of the month. that they have been told, you know, that's it, it's over,

whatever the president is doing. it's a strange policy. at the same time wooee're pulli out our troops we're sanking the turks for doing whatever we gave them the power do. that's the policy going in two directions at once. you have republicans on capitol hill who i think really are in a panic. they see that the public is not happy with this abandonment of an ally. so you have mitch mcconnell, lindsey graham scrambling to criticize the president in very strong terms. i think trump obviously is listening, he announces sanctions, not clear what impact they'll have. i'm also told a final point, strange one, that he called personally the syrian kurdish commander, somebody i've interviewed a half a dozen times, a brave commander, and trump got on the phone to him and tried to reassure him -- it really is the classic moment.

after the toothpaste is out of the tube. the general was very poe light. the preside polite as he always is. the president was trying to keep him from working with thea jeem. >> too late. >> trump and others are scrambling to try to look better politically in what they know say losi is a losing. >> and heidi, republicans have spoken out during this crisis more than any other time since he won the nomination. what's next on the hill? what do republicans plan do to counteract their president's policy? >> they haven't even been on the hill. they arrived back today. yesterday i reached back to a number of them. look, these sanctions not going to cut it. to your point, they don't address the fact that we're unleashing isis. a lot of those republicans, including lindsey graham don't just want sanctions and tougher

sanctions, they want the policy reverse. you see lindsey graham unusually teaming up with nancy pelosi to say we want tougher sanctions. >> that doesn't happen every day. >> doesn't happen every day. and we want the policy reversed. so when they get back today, i reached out yesterday to mitch mcconnell's office and i said is he also going support doing this resolution to basically force the president to reverse his policy? and they said i point you to the part of his statement where mitch mcconnell said, i do not support a full withdrawal from syria and we have a super majority in the senate that supports that. >> interesting news, the russian defense ministry is reporting that the russian military is conducting patrols at the turkey/syria border. >> so they're the new power brokers. >> right. and bob costa, as we said yesterday on the show, we can talk about all the different players, talk about how israel was betrayed and talk about how iran is empowered, talk about

how the kurds were betrayed. but at the end of the day, the big winner here is vladimir putin. the soviets had not been in the middle east since 1973, now russia is not only in the middle east, they now basically are going to control who comes and goes out of syria. >> and that fact alarms many of my republican sources. but alarm only takes you so far. the question has been what will they do because they're alarmed about the president's decision? they've been looking for the safe space for 2 1/2 years where they can criticize president trump and not be seen as aligned with speaker pelosi and chairman schiff. finally they're telling me they feel the syria decision is allowing them to clammer against the president. democrats shouldn't ignore it. republicans are never going to join in on the chorus with speaker pelosi until it's very late. if ever it would be the 11th

hour. but they will keep building if the president moves forward on this syria decision. >> all right. how should conservative republicans be reacting to all of this? former republican governor john kasich joins us next on "morning joe" with that. john kasich joins us next on "morning joe" with that. at t-mobile unlimited talk, text and data is just 30 bucks a line for 4 lines.

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, former republican governor of ohio and former presidential candidate john kasich. he's out today with a new book called "it's up to us: ten little ways we can bring about big change ". good to see you. >> thank you for having me on. >> the book is not about politics necessarily. >> no, it's not. it's a handbook for foam get nare their power back and realize they can change the world. power doesn't come from the top down, it comes from the bottom up. when people in their neighborhoods decide to do things, that's what america's all about. not about politics and this and

that. that stuff matters, but what really matters is what we do where we live and we're made special and we have gifts and we need to use them. >> we're going to talk about the book in a minute. do want to watch you some of the news of the day as we watch this impeachment inquiry go on. i saw an interview the other day with cnn where you talked to your republican friends and people you served with in congress. you say look yourself in the mirror. are you comfortable with the things you're doing and saying? what did you mean by that? >> your job is to be an american and call them like you see them, not to be a member of a political party and take your orders from some party boss or live in fear that somebody in your district or in your state is going to come out against you because you're not towing the line with donald trump. what amazes me, willie, is we're not -- most of these questions are not should there be an impeachment inquiry, which i think there definitely has to be, but do you think it was wrong for the president to call up the leader of another country

to dig up dirt on his political opponent and they can't even answer that question. it's bazaar to me. what are they going to think had they're kid says to them, daddy, what do you do in what are they supposed to say i'm wearing a red uniform and that's the way it goes. you should be wearing a red, white, and blue uniform and remembering that it is your reputation is all you have in washington. if you want to have a friend via dog, and the other thing you need to do is look in the mirror and think about how you want to be thought of yourself and others. >> it's a question we ask on this show every single day. it's a simple question. are you okay with the president going to a foreign leader and -- >> well they won't answer the question. >> but help people at home understand. let's take ron johnson for example on meet the press. why does he when asked that yes or no question go into conspiracy theories? is it to protect his job? >> yes. >> that's all it is yes. >> when you get in those jobs you think you've got to stay in them. and you're afraid of what's going to happen because when

you're in them the spotlight is on you. you know, willie, you know this, and you understand the ins and outs of being in the spotlight and you handle it right. but a lot of people when they get in the spotlight, they don't want to leave it. it's almost like an addiction. so if i'm a senator or something, i've got to continue to be a senator even though there's life after congress, think about our buddy scarborough, he knows what life's all about. >> worked out okay. >> it's working out great for me. and the point have willie, they just -- they get so caught up and they don't want to make these other people angry. you've got lead when you're a united states senator. you've got lead when you're a congressman. you don't need to follow. have a little courage. it goes for both sides. for example, i think there out to be an impeachment inquiry in the house, a full inquiry just like we did during the clinton administration. but, you know, democrats, if you ask them, should there be an inquiry, they're like i don't know about that. i just saw a congressman in agreement the other day. well just answer the question, man. be fair.

let the facts come out and determine where we're going. >> let me ask you about the state you've represented for so long boths a congressman and of course as governor. ohio donald trump won by eight points last time around. the head to head polling shows both joe biden, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders running neck and neck. can a democrat take the state of ohio from donald trump in 2020? >> i think it's possible but if they're going to spend their time bashing donald trump i don't think that's going to get it. i think it's all -- willie, you know what it's about. my healthcare costs are through the roof. it's about the fact that my wages aren't going up or i don't have a job or how i can have security in my job? it's all the table issues. it's not -- i mean, yeah, you talk about trump and what he represents, but it's bigger than that. it's about what happens at the dinner table at home with your family and how do you feel about somebody who could be in to improve your life? you've got to speak to those issues. >> is there one candidate or another, governor, as you talk to people in ohio who they're more excited about, democratic

candidate? is it joe biden? is it elizabeth warren? is it bernie sanders? >> most of time in ohio right now if you're in cleveland you're excited about the browns and if you're in columbus you're excited about ohio state. we get in a bubble. we think that people are paying all this attention and they're really not. just people right now are not really focussed on that. it's the fall and we're going to change the clocks soon, the time changes, the kids are off to school, it's getting cold. that's where we have to live as leaders. we have to live with those families, not something that is not connected to them. that's really what the book's about. >> your old buddy joe scarborough borrow hashas a que you. >> you are right, there is life after congress. i used to be in congress now i'm a little league baseball coach. >> and a good one. >> thank you so much. >> oh, mika, you're just biased. i can't believe that. >> she is. she is. so, john, let me ask you, i was just talking last hour about the reason i got to congress.

i've told this story before. i was watching you and tim penny, a republican and democrat get on the house floor, talk about the deficit, talk about the exploding national debt, and, i mean, you and i, that was our thing in congress. we were republicans, we were small government republicans. we believed in less spending. we believed in balanced budgets and we believed in free trade, we believed in standing up to russia, i could go on and on. we believed in nato. we believed that you were friends to your friends and you were tough to your enemies. so it remains a great mystery to me how the same people that voted for you and the same people that voted for me not so long ago now support a party that has record debt, record deficits, puts up tariff taxes on working class and middle class americans and farmers.

basically goes with kim jong-un and putin. if i were a democrat oning many those positions i would have won with 99% of the vote. what's happened -- i'm not talking about trump. what's happened to this party as far as small government free market conservatism? >> i can't -- i can't figure it out, joe. i mean, i don't know what happened. but it isn't a party that we joined. it's not a party we're comfortable with and he would either have to reshape the party or we've got big questions to ask ourselves about our future in that party. i will tell you that i'm very disturbed with the fact that the democrats are going, mika, forgive me here, but going hard left and i don't like to see them wanting to take away people's private health insurance. but, joe, let's go back to when you came into congress and let's talk about the clash you came in with and let's talk about you. we didn't put up with the status quo. if we had to fight our leaders, including a republican president, we did it because we believed in certain things and

we shaped the party and we hood is up and we had courage. and the class that you came in with changed everything. we were very successful for a while, but you might recall, when you were gone, i was gone, we began to see it sagfalling apart. it takes people frankly like you and others like you to stand up and say, enough. but i don't know where they are, joe. it's like they disappeared. they lost their voice. it's crazy. >> it is -- it is unbelievable, again, $22 trillion debt. massive deficits. and, again -- >> it's going to hammer our kids, joe. you know that. you cannot keep bringing up the debt. we used to say we have to balance the budget and have surpluses for our kids. now it's like i've got to take care of me and make everybody happy by playing santa claus and spending our kids' money. it's crazy. >> and the crazy thing is the definition of what conservative

bob costa has changed under john kasich, the republican party balanced the budget for the first time in a generation. they balanced it four years in a row. >> he expanded medicaid. >> for the first time since the 1920s. that's the only time that's happened happened in a hundred years and yet the definition of conservatism is not that. the definition of conservative is will you follow trump off the cliff to support putin? will you follow trump off the cliff to not protect democracy under foreign interference. it's just the most bizarre thing. >> with all that said, governor, i can't remember anyone having as much fun on the campaign trail as watching you in new hampshire in 2015-2016. here's the question. is there any chance in the coming months you decide to jump into that race in the new hampshire primary? >> only if i have a chance to win. >> what does that mean, governor? what does that mean? >> win -- win the election. what does it mean what does it mean?

i'm not interested in being in some kind of -- >> why not win the new hampshire primary? >> first of all, you know this, bob. people who have the resources to fund you because right now i would have to take a greyhound bus to new hampshire. people don't want to make a winner. they want to be with a winner. right now with 80-plus percent of republicans supporting trump there's no path. i don't want to be in a demolition derby and just go out and make a statement. >> what's your hard date on a decision? >> i will let you know. you'll be one of the first 5 million to know. i'll let you know. [ laughter ] it's not now because, look, robert, why don't you ask me -- listen, i have this book. >> i interviewed you a few months ago and you said foreign policy is one of the key issues and you have a syria crisis for many republicans on your hands and you're still saying you can't give me a time line on the decision? >> what is this? we're connecting syria with a time line? >> it's a major moment.

>> hold on, because you guys aren't getting this, this book i've written has nothing to do with politics. it has to do, joe scarborough, with bottom up, mika, bottom-up with the power, civil right, all came from the people to the top. it's all about people taking power and not just wringing their hands and watching these national elections. it's about what you do where you live and when we understand that that's how people get their power back and the book is replete with examples of folks out there that live next door to us who have changed the world. so that's where my attention is right now. it's not on going to run for office again. look at joe's voice, and i have a pretty good voice, too. i enjoy what i'm doing right now. >> it's a nice voice. >> he's got a book out. >> yes, he does, and i told him we'll get to it, we just have a bunch of people. it's up to us. "ten little ways we can get big change." you got to the heart of what's

been missing over the last couple of generation which is know your neighbor, know the people in the church and the synagogue and the people that build from the ground up. >> greta thunberg i was talking about a 15-year-old who stood outside the parliament and she's created a worldwide movement when it comes to environmental awareness or for example, a little girl from illinois that decided that her name was florence and she knew the storm was coming up the coast, and florence is my name and i don't want people to think badly of me. by the time she was done she had a garage full of bandages and she changed the world and that's what makes america great and not just arguments at the dinner table and i hate trump, and i love trump. it's who you are. nobody's ever be like you, willie and no one will be like joe or mika again and the

question is with those gifts, what are you doing to make a difference? >> this is a statement and it's not what's happening on tv or twitter and the outrage of the day, but what's going on in people's lives every day. >> exactly. >> and the decisions we'll make about politics because of that. >> i think we have to realize people sometimes feel daunted that it's little old me and what can i do? oh, you can do a lot of things to make the world a better place. my goal is when i die at least 70% of what they say about me when they talk about me will be true. >> 70%. i don't know how you arrived at that number, but that's a good shot. >> maybe 80. >> the book is called "it's up to us. ten little ways we can change today." it is out today. >> so much fun to be with you. >> bob costal be waiting for your call. >> he'll be one of the first 5 million. >> coming up next on "morning joe," independent senator angus

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only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (alarm beeping) welcome to our busy world. where we all want more energy. but with less carbon footprint. can we have both? at bp, we're working every day to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. defense forces have been a strong ally of the united states. >> they didn't help us in the second world war. they didn't help us with normandy, as an example. >> the united states of america did not give a green light to turkey to invade syria. >> he said i want to go in. he's been telling me that for two and a half years, and you

know, he's ready to do it. >> we have great concerns about civilian populations. >> we have spent tremendous amounts of money on helping the kurds. >> the president is very concerned about instability in the region. >> you know, they're there and we're here. we're many miles away. >> think, we have concern about isis fighters. >> we took care of isis. we captured 100%. >> spoke to president macron ofness fr today. >> many of them should go back to europe, germany and france. >> we will be engaging around the world. >> our alliances have taken tremendous advantage of us. >> president trump and vice president pence in their own words less than one week apart. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is tuesday, october 15th and editor with the washington post, david ignacious. nbc news correspondent julia

ainsley, u.s. national editor at the financial times, edward loose, former political writer columnist ron fornier and he's now president of trustcot rossmann, a detroit-based pr firm. >> they're actually in charge of the detroit tigers pr after this season. that's it. how's it going? >> and apparently the lions and the refereeing. >> exactly. hey, willie. >> hello? >> first of all, we'll talk about nationals and baseball in a second, but i really think that i'll have to find a spot in my kitchen -- >> no, not doing this. >> and i'll put john bolton's next to it. >> no. >> because anybody that can come out with a quote like that which is -- you're backing into the news again. >> it's the only way to do it. >> it's how you do it. first of all, you can talk about the hand grenade and how about the declaration immediately when they hear about the quid pro

quo. i'm not going to be part of mr. sondland's and mr. mulvaney and mr. giuliani's drug deal. we've heard that before. but go ahead, willie. that's pretty amazing. >> that's from the testimony from fiona hill yesterday, extraordinary testimony that we'll walk through. we got a look at some of it from behind closed doors when she reported that john bolton said i want nothing to do with this drug deal between rudy giuliani and the ukrainians. you'll remember john bolton resigned and he resired depending on who you believe over this question. >> i've always been a big fan of john bolton. secondly, the second most important story in washington. the national, david ignacious. he's going have one of those national things drinking beer. >> baby, they're 3-0 in the championship series. we don't get this in d.c. we have a punch of politicians

and we have to look at it and we have a great baseball team. >> a great baseball team. man, they are on fire, aren't they? great pitching the first couple of games and just great hitting last night. >> they won 8-1 left night and the game was never close. they were up 7-0 and went up 3-0 and they can finish it up tonight with a sweep in washington at home in front of those fans and then they would have a week off before the world series as the yankees and astros battle it out today. >> all right. >> by the way, willie, david said we're going to the world series and i've heard other people in washington say that. can you remind them and i'm not saying this to be a jerk -- >> oh, man. >> remind them what happened in 2004. every time people on my side of the team i'm cheering for them, oh, we're going to the super bowl, you know? my brother called me up in the end of the third quarter and say can you believe the falcons will finally win at super bowl? when you hear that, you just go,

duck, they have to win four games don't they? >> we've lived through enough of those. the early shot of the champagne on ice and the tarps going up in the lockers to protect them just celebrate after the game. >> okay. >> very good advice. thank you, gentlemen. >> come to d.c. to be with us because they know that i won't say -- important things are going to be happening in the near future. >> right. >> you want to be here for that. >> that's true, we did. >> it's not, though, baseball. >> mika doesn't know it -- >> oh, lord. >> mika doesn't know it, but she's going to a baseball game tonight. >> i'm not. >> i won on stub hub last night, mika. >> it starts at 8:00. >> we'll talk about rugby -- and -- >> movies on. >> thank you. okay. >> that's tonight. >> former white house aide fiona hill testified for more than nine hours behind closed doors yesterday in the impeachment inquiry, and a source tells nbc news that she told lawmakers

that after then-national security adviser john bolton learned of the efforts to get ukraine's government to investigate president trump's political opponent, bolton told hill that he wanted no part of the, quote, drug deal. the effort reportedly also involved acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney. hill also reportedly testified that bolton called giuliani a, quote, hand grenade, and told her to report the situation to the national security council's top lawyer. the details of her testimony were first reported by "the new york times." hill also reportedly told lawmakers that giuliani ran a shadow foreign policy on ukraine and that she considered what was happening to be a clear counterintelligence risk to the united states. people familiar with her testimony tell "the washington post" that hill told lawmakers giuliani's policy circumvented u.s. officials and career diplomats in order to personally

benefit president trump, and was not coordinated with the officials responsible for carrying out u.s. foreign policy. this is incredible, and nbc news also learned that the white house tried to limit hill's testimony by raising the issue of executive privilege. in response, giuliani told nbc news, quote, i always liked and respected john. i'm very disappointed that his bitterness drives him to attack a friend falsely and in a very personal way. it's ironic that john bolton is calling anyone else a hand grenade -- >> we don't need to hear any more of this because what rudy giuliani doesn't understand. they went to the lawyers right after the meeting. they've got the transcripts and julia, they have the details and he can go on any trumpist talk radio show, they've got the transcripts and they've got the evidence it's like the end of

mattlock. >> if you think about it, the national security council lawyer that she was advised to go to, that is the same person as bewe as the cia general counsel who called the justice department before we had the whistle-blower complaint. when the president focuses on this whistle-blower, it wasn't one person and it was all of these people and it dates before the complaint. i think if it wasn't for the complaint itself this wouldn't have surfaced. >> you know it's a tough beat reporter for over three decades, especially because you had to cover the clintons in arkansas and washington, you can sniff out b.s. and they're pretty good at it? it's pretty pungent now. >> these people are terrible at hiding their messes and this is all coming out. a third grader knows. it's all coming out and rudy is still lying. they're still trying to cover up. i mean, rudy and donald trump seem to be the only two people

who aren't smart enough to cover their back sides legally. >> now not only is it coming out, but it started with the president acknowledging that he broke the law. >> and the white house releasing a memo saying what happened. i mean, these are now the corroborating stories that are coming out that are already backing up like the president has said himself. >> now we're inside the meeting when the national security adviser called this a drug deal, a side deal, and talked about a hand grenade and then, of course, you had to love fiona hill saying that she was reminded of alexander hague on that fateful day in 1981 when ronald reagan got shot and he claimed the constitution put him in charge. sondland said the same thing to her. >> i'm in charge of ukraine. no. actually, you're not. >> right. >> john bolton, you talk about somebody that i would be worried

about. hell hath no fury like an ego maniac scorned. there will be some payback here. >> there is going to be up on my wall. >> he is the patriot. actually, though, this actually is a very clarifying moment, isn't it, david ignacious, a very clarifying moment that there are patriots out there and it doesn't matter what their ideology is. there are -- for the most part, and that's why i've said, mike pence to bernie sanders would be a vast improvement over a president that does not respect constitutional norms, over a president that believes the second amendment gives him unlimited power, who mocks federal uj jes a federal judges and calls the press enemies of the people and is an autocrat in training and here is a great insight of what a patriot looks like even if you disagree with him, if someone

puts america first before their precedent and before their ideology. >> here we have a key witnesses to these events who are going to congress to testify about them, are telling the truth and are saying startling things about what happened one after the other. the former ambassador, gordon sondland is set to testify later this week, the truth. >> he doesn't have much of a choice now, does he? >> he doesn't. it's all there. >> so much documentary evidence that's out there that people, i'm sure, advised by their lawyer, they now have criminal lawyers, you need to tell the truth. >> sondland, so tell us, if you will, give us a back story on fiona hill. >> who is fiona hill? >> we were talking before the show, and you were talking about this extraordinary woman and her back ground. >> she's born and raised in my country, britain, in the northeast, a very gritty part of england. >> near new castle.

>> for our viewers in america, roger bennett calls this the jersey shore of britain. >> there was a tiny football club, everybody hates new castle. i don't have to explain why. >> they just do. everybody does. everybody hates new castle. >> exactly. >> and she came to the top of her class and applied for oxford and cambridge. they didn't even give her an interview. harvard talent spotted her and took her over the atlantic and she's been here ever since, but she is a gritty, tough professional, and an expert in putin. has written one of the best books on putin out there. >> it's critical of putin. >> very hawkish and she worked for the bush administration. she is an example, more broadly, as marie yovanovitch, the former ambassador is, of how professionals behave versus how

appointees behave including sondland and this is a guy who gave millions and who sold loyalty to donald trump, and his i'm in charge of, crane government. people like yovanovitch, fiona hill and many others in this story are examples of those who serve a larger audience, namely the american people, and i think you're seeing that contrast really, really play out now, particularly in the foreign service. professional foreign service officer would not have said i'm in charge on ukraine. >> right. >> coming up on "morning joe," we'll get a report on the turkey-syria border. that's next. turkey-syria border. that's next.

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university poll that shows voters continue to support house democrats impeachment probe into president trump. a majority, 51% say they approve of the impeachment inquiry. 45% disapprove. voters split on whether president trump should be impeached and removed from office with 46% agreeing with that idea. 48% disagree. that's held pretty steady. 51% say the impeachment inquiry is a legitimate investigation. 43% call it a witch hunt. meanwhile, 538 found impeaching president trump, according to 530 polls since august 1, 2018. so again, joe, the president can't call one poll or another an outliar. that's the average of 500 or so polls that show a majority of americans support this inquiry. >> and you know, ed, it wasn't so long ago, maybe three weeks ago that the president said he was going to get worry period those numbers ever got over 50%.

all of the fear and loathing, all of the weeping and the nashing of teeth and democrats and whether they should start an impeachment inquiry, i think it's gone away. look at those poll numbers. they're overwhelmingly supportive of the impeachment. >> these polls have been so dramatic and so pronounced and so constant in the last three weeks that i think this morning for the first time i was thinking about this, there is a materiel chance that trump will be removed, one in three, one in four, whatever it might than this is moving so quickly, that he's been caught out by himself more than anything else, so dramatically and the policy which is the fate of ukraine is linked to all of this and the middle east, as well, is disintegrating in such a terrible, real time fashion causing such anguish amongst

republicans whose support he'll need in the senate. >> think about the parallels. you have this extraordinary ukraine story exploding, blowing up like a hand grenade, a political hand grenade. it will be damaging to everybody around the president of the united states. at the same time, there is a foreign approximately see disaster the likes of which we probably haven't seen since, ra iraq. i would have to go back to 2006 when the sectarian violence really exploded to think of a time when the united states was in the middle of something so -- so damaging on the international stage as what we're going through right now. >> so i think the tv images of our former allies being gunned down in syria, the people that our special forces fought with, the people who took down our adversaries in isis being now abandoned. i think that's powerful and clear to people in a way that the ukraine story is still isn't

quite. every day we have more evidence, but those polling numbers are still pretty narrow. the country is pretty evenly split at 50-point-something percent with the majority and you feel that over time adam schiff, others will have to explain the ukraine story to people so that they say -- here's what fiona hill said. here's what john bolton said and here's why this matters to you, but in terms of syria, our policy is collapsing and russia, iran. >> they can see it with eyes of the reporter on the scene. we'll go to keir who is on the border between turkey and syria. keir, there are claims of a brokered cease-fire. what are you seeing and hearing on the scene? >> reporter: mika, there is no cease-fire on the ground here and what you can see behind me is syria, and we have now been here for a number of hours

watching turkish tanks move out of cover, fire, and pull back again. if i step out of the way we can push into the town and that is where we've been watching a battle take place between turkish forces and mostly kurdish forces, regularly seeing turkish artillery land in this town, a town that turkey said it had taken three days ago and this, remember, happening just after president trump has picked up the phone to president erdogan, just after vice president pence has called for a cease-fire and said that he will come to the region, just after washington has announced sanctions on turkey and is making no difference as far as we can tell this morning in syria. and this is a bitter battle taking place for a key town inside syria, and the kurds now saying that they believe the 275,000 civilians have been

displaced by this fighting. so you know, whatever the president does and there you can hear that artillery fire and you may see in a moment it land. you can see the smoke rising above the town. whatever the president does, the sound of his tweets are nothing in comparison -- there it is. and you can see the smoke in the town just rising above it, as those turkish shells land there. i was just trying to say that whatever the president does, you know, the power of his tweets are nothing compared with the sound of this turkish artillery landing on syrian towns this morning just here on the border with syria. >> hey, keir, it's willie. this is extraordinary to see and hear war taking place on live television behind you. just for the benefit of our viewers, the state of play here,

we've learned that the kurds have been forced to sort of align with assad and damascus to preserve their own fate because the united states has stepped aside. who is fighting whom as we look at these pictures right now? >> reporter: well, it is the fog of war, willie. you've got to be careful about what you say because you're trying to figure out what's going on. it's tricky in any battle and this one is fast moving, but what we think we're seeing and i'm pretty confident we are, turkish forces targeting mostly kurdish forces in this town that was held by the kurds until just a week ago. you know -- the kurds have now put their lot in, if you like, with president assad, and there are reports this morning of russians who are obviously allied with damascus, russians arriving at former u.s. bases,

just piles the humiliation on to the u.s. to see that, if those reports are true, but at the same time, just as you look at these pictures, you've just got to think about the civilians that will still inevitably be in this town and what we're told is this town is hit by air munitions morning and night for three days and yet still the battle is continuing. so it does look as if those kurdish forces abandoned by america are still holding out against this turkish assault. >> all right. >> thank you very much. >> keir, we greatly appreciate it. be safe. coming up on "morning joe," independent senator angus king will be our guest. will be our guest. with my hepatitis c,

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interest in impeachment have mostly evaporated among house democrats as many of them view the past two week as the most damaging to president trump. a congressional leadership source tells nbc news that democrats are preparing to hold a caucus meeting tonight for a brief, quote, team huddle to update members on the impeachment inquiry following the recess. let's bring in pulitzer prize-winning columnist at "the washington post," eugene robinson and bureau chief of usa today and auth are on of "the matriarch," susan page, and commentary editor for the washington examiner and the visiting fellow at the american president institute, greg carney is with us. great group. >> so, the republicans are back into town. when are they coming back? >> they're waking up -- you wake up from a nightmare. republicans wake up to a

nightmare. >> and it's john bolton this morning, by the way. the deep state --? that's funny. >> the feeling inside the caucus especially on the senate side especially what i'm hearing is this feeling that nobody really wants to defend trump in all in this way and they're deadly afraid and they realize trump came in and kind of turned the whole party upside down. they thought their base was a certain thing. they thought their base was either cato institute or family research council libertarians or conservatives. >> right. >> and then they learned that their base was something else. it was a trumpian populous base out there and now they're afraid of their base and not that they know what it is and it's this terrifying thing and that is the feeling that undergirds any instinct where you want to call out the president and you know you want to get this blowback and it's a mystery. i've got to say, willie, that wrings very true to me because

you grow up and you think, okay, i have all these views and being, you know, being russell clerk and william buckley and yayan, you think you know where your party is and for me and half of the party, it's like me -- and the other half, like tim -- >> no, seriously, more supply side and so that was our big fight, balanced budget, cut taxes -- >> and would somehow figure out a way to do both. we woke up one morning and that conservative party was gone. >> yeah. and this isn't conservatism. i think you and tim would agree and you're going back before donald trump and george w. bush, conservatism went out the window there. let's bring into the conversation a member of the house arms services commit angus

king. i want to ask you about the sanctions placed on turkey by the trump administration. we've heard, scratching our heads, and it was just last week that trump gave the go ahead to president erdogan so that turkey could go into northeast syria and now he's punishing erdogan for doing what he allowed him to do with the sanks. how do you explain it? >> it's like a guy who said cross that line and you're going to get it and then the guy crosses the line and then you draw another line and say cross this other line and you'll get it. i think the problem is, and yes, by the way, we will pass overwhelmingly in the next day or two sanctions and urging the president to revert, but it is too late. the damage is done. >> what we signal to our allies. what do you believe the damage to be? >> it's on a whole lot of levels. first, you have to say who won

from this decision? iran, russia, assad and isis, and there's a deeper problem here. this gives iran open running room in syria. they've been an ally of assad right along and what they're looking for is a path to the mediterranean, a land bridge and this opens it up and it endangers israel in a very serious way and that is geostrategic and the deeper thing is what you touched on. we have no credibility. the kurds literally died for us. 11,000 of their fighters died in the fight against isis. they came to our defense. they worked with us and the president talks about how we won, we won. it was a coalition and the kurds were the bloody end of the spear and to walk away, i think is going have ramifications for years. who's going to come to our aid if we -- if we need help? that's a very deep problem here. i said to somebody the other

day, this isn't america first. this is america alone, and you know, the successes of this country going back throughout history have always been through alliances and basically -- >> right. >> now nobody's going to trust us. >> you know, senator talks about red lines. we draw a lot of red lines in syria, don't we, and we have for some time, susan page, and unfortunately, the message is always the same. we draw the red lines and people step over them and we come home. >> president obama paid a price for drawing a red line and not responding when chemical weapons were used, but it doesn't compare to the pictures we're seeing now come out of syria and the devastation that the senator is talking about among other things and my question to the senator would be, if sanctions will not rewind the clock and repair the damage that has been done, what could? what do you think president trump ought to do at this point to try to address this situation we see unfolding? >> i don't think there's much he can do.

he can say we're not going to withdraw those troops after all. we will try to restore order along the border, but i honestly think that's almost impossible. the turks have been licking their chips to ops to do this fs and we had a 10ous and a reasonable basis for holding them at bay, but once he gave into the dictator a week ago, i just -- i wish i had an answer to your question because we're going to be debating that here in the next couple of days, and i think part of the sanction resolution is going to also be urging him to reverse the decision. the question is on the ground, as you've seen in these reports, you know, are we then going to war with the turks to push them back from where they are? the sad part of this thing, the saddest part for me, is that it was totally predictable. if the president had consulted anybody after that telephone call, if he'd talked to the head of centcom, the joint chiefs of

staff, the secretary of defense, the state department, anybody, they would have said this is exactly what's going to happen, don't do it, but instead he impulsively made a decision, and his only consultation was with the dictator of turkey and that's what's sad about this because it was totally predictable, anybody here could have said it and he did it anyway. >> senator, gene robinson here. >> yes. >> we worked with the kurds for years sharing not only equipment, but tactics and -- >> and the intelligence and all sort of information, doesn't that now just get shared with their new de facto allies the russians and isn't that another impact of this -- of this terrible decision? >> i think it is. the kurds, as we know, have struck a kind of tentative deal with the russians and assad

regime and you know, so it's just -- it just makes it a shambles. the middle east is very complicated and this was a complicated situation in syria, but when we've done has just made it infinitely worse, and let's talk about isis for a minute. something like the estimates i've seen are as high as 700 or 800 isis people have escaped from these camps because they were aware all of this fighting was taking place. remember, it only took 19 people to do september 11th and we're talking about 700 or 800 of the most dangerous people on earth are now abroad again because of this -- that was another predictable outcome of this decision. >> senator, this is david ignatius. >> sure. i want to ask you, forgive me, about the politics of this syria moment. we've heard some things from republican, mitch mcconnell, lindsay graham that we don't often hear. a level of criticism of donald trump that's unusual. do you think that's going to

stick? do you think that's going to have consequences for where we go heading forward? have republicans finally found their voice as you watch the senate or not? >> i think that's a really good question, and i think it's hard to say and we'll see over the next few days, but in some sense i think it's given republicans a vent, an opportunity to break with the president on something that the public understands and feels is terrible and maybe it allows them to say we're standing up to the president and we don't think this impeachment is prospector and it continues to defend the president. on the other hand, it could sort of wake them up to say, wait a minute. this is such a bad approximately s policy mistake and it was so predictable. this has made us realize this is the president across the board including traying to get another country to get involved.

>> so, tim, explain, if you will, for views are who may not have been republicans in the past like me, are conservatives. explain, what is it about this moment? what is it about this issue that's ignited the base, like, ignited lindsay and ignited the republicans who in the past had been tim itid, at best. >> there's a lots, lindsay graham, was hawkish for better or worse. that's been one of the few things that's triggered him when he thought trump was not being hawkish enough and there are other guys, marco rubio is another one who that's his sort of lone, main motivator and to go back to trump's weird appeal

to the base. so much of this country is, and i might be wrong, because this is where i am, kind of thinks we shouldn't be going around minding other people's business. if you mess with us, we kill you, but we're not the global policeman. >> so that actually underlines the question why now. why is it that republicans and -- >> it's not just on the old -- >> it's not just the old mccain caucus. this is widespread. >> i think the -- >> what is it about this issue? >> i think the senators, unlike a lot of the base, really believes that the way america projects power is through force, and for someone like me who has really questioned the iraq war, obama's libya invasion and all of those were grave mistakes, this is actually a horrible move for trump. in some ways it's worse and i have a friend julian sanchez and i've been trying to say let's get out of these places for years and trump just pulled all of the dishes off the table and

ran out, like, everything shattered. this is not good. this is sloppy and fly by the seat of the pants and this lends the lindsays and the rubios that for non-undinterventionist, but go back to the electorate. wait, why were we helping the kurds who i never heard of in syria, which is a place that doesn't affect us? i don't think this will be politically negative, but you're right that it is upsetting the republican senators. >> we'll talk about this a lot more and we'll explain just how different what we did in syria was from iraq even afghanistan and it's as if the pentagon and really smart people in washington and across the country learned from the mistakes of the past 16, 17 years after 9/11, and they actually got a small, strong, manageable force with a small

footprint that could do extraordinary things and after learning 17 years from 17 years of mistakes we finally get it right and then it gets blown up. we'll talk about that and much more when we come back. >> up next, hunter biden speaks out on the same day as tonight's democratic debate. we'll talk about that timing and also show you what he said. it was pretty amazing. plus, if it wasn't already clear, there are new illustrations this morning proving just how influential a role that facebook will play in the presidential election. elizabeth warren is picking a fight with mark zuckerberg who has been reaching out to conservative voices. that story is ahead and it's a pretty good one. as we go to break, here is a look at what's happening, know your value.com and i'm headed to richmond for the women achieve summit. queen latifah is actually hosting that. check out the website for the latest tips and advice on getting value back in all your

relationships, that's know your value.com. >> even my relationship with tim carney? >> no. i'm ládeia, and there's more to me than hiv. there's my career... my cause... and creating my dream home. i'm a work in progress.

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did you and your father ever discuss ukraine? >> no. as i said, the only time was after a news account -- and it wasn't a discussion in any way. there's no but to this, no, we never did. >> your dad said i hope you know what you're doing and i said i do, and that was literally the end of our discussion. >> the president has repeatedly said that you received $1.5 billion from china despite no experience and for no apparent reason. obviously fact checkers have said that that is not true. >> this has no basis in fact in any way. >> have you received money from a business dealing? >> no. not one cent. >> definitely not $1.5 billion. it's crazy. they feel like they have the license to go out and say whatever they want. it feels to me like living in

some kind of alice in wonderland where you're up on the real world and you fall down the rabbit hole and the president is the cheshire cat asking you questions about crazy things that don't have bear any resemblance to the reality of -- of anything that has to do with me. and so -- here's the answer, no one ever paid me $1.5 billion. it's all noise and they create an an enormous amount of noise and i have to then answer questions about accusations made by probably the most unethical group of people that we've ever seen in this republic. like i have said, i've been through some stuff in my life. i've been through some real, real stuff. this isn't real stuff. it isn't. it truly isn't. that part of it, that barnum and bailey, you know, say anything, do anything you want, you know, i mean, donald prince humperdink

trump jr. is not someone that i really care about. >> well, that actually made a lot of sense, and hunter biden did really well. that was his interview with abc's amy rohrbach. >> i will say, david, the most important part of the interview was when he was asked would you have gotten these jobs if your last name wasn't biden. no, i wouldn't gotten his jobs if it wasn't biden and you say on the specific, again, you go to the ukrainian issue where the investigators -- that's been debunked from "the wall street journal" to every other news outlet and that's been debunked. as far as firing the investigator to get him off of hunter biden's company's back and china i'm sure we'll see follow-up reporting on this. did he get $1.5 billion from china? no, but close. he got zero. he's saying he got no money so

donald trump's only $1.5 billion off when he says that, if that's true. >> the one thing that he does need to see just straight in the eye is that it wasn't good judgment for him to receive money from work for the big ukrainian gas company and a pretty corrupt company and at the same time his dad was a spokesman for the business administration. either he should have quit or his dad should have shut up and he just needs to say that and level with people. >> joe biden should say, you know what? my son should have gotten out of ukraine or i should have stayed out of ukraine's business because that will help him because it will sprit him from hillary. >> that's hard to do with a debate with ten other people on stage with a 20-second time clock. the question of judgment is not only hunter biden's lack of judgment. the more important question is

joe biden's lack of judgment in allowing this situation to develop. i know it's hard in a crowded debate stage, and he'll have the task about doing that tonight. he will be asked about this almost guaranteed if if not by other candidates than by the moderators. >> when people say that washington is corrupt, and think that the swamp needs to be drained, what they're thinking about is a vice president's son, who has no qualifications, going overseas and getting a job for $50,000 a month. the $1.5 from china made up. that is what allows trump to come in and make up conspiracy theories about what was going on. that is corrupt and if they could just come face to face with it it would deflate, largely deflate, lots of this.

>> donald trump is extraordinarily corruption, he has been, and one of the reasons that hillary clinton loss and mika said it time and time again. when she was running against donald trump there was not enough of a contrast. he needs to get that hillary problem off of his back. >> and it's not on sis back it's on his sons. >> no, it's on his back. >> you think he went to ukraine and said can you give my son this job? >> i think every american knows that is struggling to get by, to pay their rent or struggling to get by to put their kid in community college, they're sitting there and seeing a kid who says he had no qualifications for this job getting $50,000 a month or

however much he got. if he wants to make a contrast with donald trump on these issues, he has to come clean with this and then move forward. >> i think he is starting to do that now, joe, jean, he said the other night, he said my son has resigned from the company in china. when i'm president, this is where the contrast comes in, i promise that none of my children will have an office, none of my children will sit in on national security meetings and certainly none will have foreign business dealings while i'm president of the united states. >> so he has started to make a response. he should have made a response sooner, he should have started this process sooner, and i do tend to agree with what joe was saying. and that deal, with the

ukrainian gas company. needs to be explaining then, and put into context, and you have to explain that yeah, he would not have gotten that sweet heart deal unless his name was biden. and he has to say something about that, i think. it is not a -- it is not a huge disastrous campaign ending thing for him, but on the margins it will cost him support i think. people will see this is swampy. >> as tim and jean both say, it is the swampy stuff. the guy leading the effort from the white house gave a million dollars to trump's campaign.

he says i'm in control here, i'm in control of this, so what are you looking for tonight in the debate? >> i'm sure that joe bide listen be taking these questions. i'm looking for an interesting, i think questions on elizabeth warren's policy, and how she plans to pay for them. a deeper dive into that. i don't think she has really been grilled on those. as for hunter biden, the $50,000 a month or whatever it was, i'm not sure we even know exactly what it was, we know it was investigated. we can see it is legal, but it looks like what people got feelings for hillary clinton, when she went and she did speeches, and she brought in

$250,000 of pop sometimes, maybe you would do it, maybe you would do it, too. it is not even off of the realm of possibilities, but you know who does not like it? >> if mika were in china, making money, when her husband was doing the people's business in china, you will either come home right now or i will -- no, it would never happen. and that's the thing, joe biden has to fess up and say i crewed up, it should have never happened. i was distracted by a lot of personal things in my life, and it will never do it again. and he did something that hillary clinton could never do. >> he needs to not get angry, no how dare you, and look at

country in the eye, admit error -- >> i think explain it. i don't think it is fair to say you have to come clean. are we all in agreement that this is something legal and investigate it. >> this was legal, ininvestigated, and it will be a political killer if he doesn't own it. >> susan, tim, thank you all very much, i now must end the show nap does it for us now, stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage in 3:00. why can't we just get in the running car? are you crazy? let's hide behind the chainsaws. smart. yeah. ok. if you're in a horror movie, you make poor decisions. it's what you do. this was a good idea. shhhh. i'm being quiet. you're breathing on me! if you want to save fifteen percent

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across all your clouds. that should clear things up. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. it is october 15th, pieces of the puzzle are falling into place. we are getting more information on shadow foreign policies. the focus is that that effort was to get joe biden and his son hunter who spoke out for the first time this morning. >> people are saying how could that not have crossed your mind, maybe this is not a good idea to go sit on the board of a cr ukrainian company. >> i'm a human,