democratic debate number four, 12 candidates, one stage, two front runners front and center tonight. i went on the floor and got you both. >> i am deeply grateful to president obama who fought so hard to make sure that agency was passed into law. >> looming over all of it the impeachment inquiry and president donald trump. >> this president is turning the moral leadership of this country into a dumpster fire. >> as a former prosecutor, i know a confession when i see it. he did it in plain sight. >> every candidate here is more

decent, more coherent, and more patriotic than the criminal in the white house. >> msnbc's live coverage of decision 2020 starts right now. >> welcome to msnbc's special post-debate coverage. i'm joy reed. tonight a dozen democratic candidates, the largest field assembled on a single stage so far met in westerville, ohio, just north of columbus answering questions for three hours in front of an audience in this bell weather state for picking the president. note that no presidential candidate since 1960 has won the general election without winning ohio. going into this fourth presidential debate, the candidate absorbing the most attacks was not joe biden but rather the new polling front

runner, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren. >> your signature, senator, is to have a plan for everything except this. >> you are making republican talking points right now in this room. >> saying this is a rules problem is ignoring the reality americans see around us every day. >> sometimes i think that senator warren is more focused on being punitive or pitting some part of the country against the other. >> i'd like to ask senator warren if she would join me in calling for an end to this regime change war in syria finally. >> when i called on twitter to suspend donald trump's account that you did not agree and i would urge you to join me. >> meanwhile, mayor pete buttigieg was on the attack tonight aggressively challenging beto o'rourke on their differences on gun policy. >> i don't need lessons from you on courage, political or personal. everyone on this stage is determined to get something

done. everyone on this stage recognizes or at least i thought we did that the problem is not other democrats who don't agree with your particular idea of how to handle this. the problem is the national rifle association and their enablers in congress. and we should be united in taking the fight to them. >> and all the candidates sparred over policy differences on health care, guns, syria, and more. join me now to discuss how it all went down, our chief public affairs officer for moveon.org, nbc news senior digital white house reporter shannon pet piece, david jolly, and maria kumar. meanwhile, let me come to you guys for your thoughts on the debate so far. this was a more contentious debate than some of the previous ones for elizabeth warren. >> the last three debates elizabeth warren was really unscathed.

she had three greats debates, no one came for her. she is clearly now the front runner because they came for her. it was kind of -- i think she was even surprised. she had those interesting looks on her face like oh, okay, wait, let me get in there. and so i think that's what we saw. that was the big difference from all the four debates thus far. i have to say, joy, i don't think this is going to change anything. i don't think it's going to move any of the at least the top three that we have right now. i don't think that does that. also, 12. 12 people. >> yeah. it's a lot of people. >> that's a lot of people. >> yeah. >> and i think, you know, i think it also does a disservice to the voters because there's so many people on that stage. >> yeah. >> so shs that's ki, that's kint out of the debate tonight. >> let me play a little bit of this. this buttigieg, klobuchar, and sanders going after warren on health care. here it is. >> way to do it without a giant

multitrillion dollar hole and without having to avoid a yes or no question is medicare for all who want it. we take a version of medicare. we let you access it if you want to. if you prefer to stay on your private plan, you can do that too. >> so, let's be clear, whenever someone hears the term "medicare for all who want it," understand what that means. it's medicare for all who can afford it. >> i appreciate elizabeth's work. but again, the difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something you can get done. and we can get this public option done. >> people defending a system which is dysfunctional, which is cruel. 87 million uninsured, 30,000 people dying every single year, 500,000 people going bankrupt for what reason? they came down with cancer. i'll tell you what the issue is here. the issue is whether the democratic party has the guts to stand up to the health care

industry. >> and shannon, i'll make the edit here that i don't think sanders was going after warren on that. he was probably the one person that didn't go after her. they have been acting as a team. >> even has his numbers have gone down and hers have come up with the assumption being she is taking supporters from him, they continue this pact they have and this align. now, i think what was really fascinating to see, you have klobuchar and buttigieg who are fighting for this moderate lane and i think fighting to keep their campaign alive at this point, especially klobuchar who hasn't qualified for the next debate yet. she came out fighting for her political future now. they want the moderate lane biden wants now. instead of going after biden, they let biden flounder on his own a bit, stumble over his own words, and instead go after warren to show themselves as the alternate warren, that they were the one who could be the counterbalance. if you're a little uncomfortable

with elizabeth warren's positions, you don't need to go to joe biden. you can come to me, amy klobuchar. i have a experience. i'm from the midwest, the heart land, and stake out that for themselves. if anything shifts which i don't know if it will at this point, i can see one of them being able to pick up moderate votes from people on the fence. >> david, they were going for voters like you. they're going for voters who are more in the moderate sphere, people who might not be comfortable with elizabeth warren. if you look at the cash on hand, buttigieg has a lot of money out there. more really left on hand than biden. out of the klobuchar/buttigieg moderate wing tonight, who do you think was more resonant for voters like you? >> look, let me start by saying i find myself as a former republican, never-trumper, always more encouraging on the nights of democratic debates and some of my democratic colleagues

because what i always see in these evenings is a field that is so much richer in policy competence and in subject matter expertise than what we've seen in three years from the republican party, than what we ever saw in a republican debate in 2016. so, yes, look, certain ideologies resonate. is it the more moderate lane you see in mayor pete and klobuchar and biden? is it the bold idea lane and progressive lane of warren and sanders and others? at the end of the day, i think if you're watching tonight you can apply miles law, the notion of where you stand depends on where you sit. if you're with kamala harris, you think she had a great night and you're right. if you're with warren, you think she had a great night and you're right. same with all the other candidates and their supporters. what i find interesting tonight, it seems they each have found their stride in turning the topic and criticism to donald trump. when things get too heated between each other, each candidate knows to a person

let's turn the fire to donald trump. the one missed opportunity it creates that i saw tonight is there are moments in debate where these candidates have an opportunity to demonstrate their fitness to be commander in chief and to be president. tonight that was around the syria conversation. the world is angry with donald trump. everyone on stage, everybody who is voting in the democratic primary is angry with donald trump. but firing at donald trump in this moment was a choice where they could have been more presidential and demonstrated an exact plan. there is no great solution, and i think a lot of people are looking for candidates right now to say what do we do in this moment in syria? the easy answer was to criticize trump. i think there was missed opportunity for a number of candidates on specifics. i would say maybe mayor pete shined in that moment with more specifics than the others. >> we're going to get in the next block a little bit more into syria. i think it was an interesting back and forth between the two

military veterans on the stage. we'll get into that more. speaking of this idea of who can get things done kind of question, so biden's kind of he'll put things back to normal. you'll have a form hadal sort of presidency again after donald trump. he tried to present himself as the only one who knows how to be president which is interesting way to frame it. here he was trying to stand out from the dozen in that stage. >> i'm the only one in the stage that's gotten anything really big done from the violence against women act to making sure we passed the affordable care act to being in a position where we in fact took almost a $90 billion act that kept us from going into depression, making us in a position where i was able to end the issue of gun sales in terms of assault weapons. so, the question is who is best prepared? we all have good ideas. the question is who's going to be able to get it done? >> joe, you talked about working with republicans and getting

things done. but you know what you also got done -- and i say this as a good friend -- you got thea bankrupt is hurting middle class families all over this country. you got trade agreements like nafta with china done which cost us 4 million jobs. >> it sounds a lot like the case against hillary clinton to be honest with you from 2016. >> i know what i'm about to say is going to be controversial, but there is no doubt in most folks mind that all those individuals on the stage tonight have solutions to our country's problems. they have great policy solutions. so did al gore. and i say that because in that stage at the end of the day what i would say is that we're still debating the nuances of policies between one and the other and no one has a claim that there is an existential threat right now not just on the national scale but increasingly on the global

scale. and no one is actually able to meet that demand right now. this is not a debate in 2016. had i flipped into 2016 i would say this is a normal tweet. that's not where we are. i don't think anyone lost but no one broke through. for us to break through and say who's going to take donald trump toe to toe, you have to think about who is the moderate republican voter who knows -- it's not the never trumper. who's going to be that leadership, that break through. it's not about the corporations this time around. that's where most of the democrats feel safe is when they point out to the insurance companies or talk about this idea of big money. it's not that. it's what is happening when we talk about corruption right now in the white house. why are we talking about the ed hadlines and possibly impeachment inquiries that are happening? that was completely missed. and as a result i think everybody on that stage did not grow their base. democrats aring democrats are going to come out. but they need to make sure

they're encouraging the moderate voter that says something is off. who is going to call it what it is and make sure we set our country right again? yeah, carine, you come from moveon.org which is a movement organization. we know in this country, solid ka candidates don't win elections, movements win elections. these guys are debating the nuances of policy, but who was showing you they have a movement behind them. >> i agree with maria. it's going to take a movement to win in 2020 to beat donald trump. it truly, truly is because it's going to be such a negative campaign that he is going to run. so, we have to have -- we have to be able to excite the base, but the base is there because we've seen that the last three years. so, how do you really bring in voters who don't normally vote like young people and others who stayed home in 2016 when you

compare to 2012. so, it does take -- it is going to take someone who could excite. i also agree with marie teresa on another thing to, i think the best part of the debate was the first 10, 15 minutes when they talked about trump's criminality. you didn't really hear that or see that contrast. he is the danger that we have. he is the person that we have to beat. and they are -- they have more in common than they have differences. >> yeah. it becomes a student council election at a certain point and i don't think that's enough. meanwhile a growing trump cost in syria as david pointed out. it was a big point of the debate and we l we'll talk about it after the break. >> i knew one of the things keeping me safe was the fact that the flag on my shoulder represented a country known to keep its word. and our allies knew it and our enemies knew it. you take that away, you are taking away what makes america. it makes our troops and the world a much more dangerous place.

what we were doing in syria was keeping our word. part of what makes it possible for the united states to get people to put their lives on the line to back us up is the idea that we will back them up too. >> in syria, he has created a bigger than ever humanitarian crisis. he has helped isis get another foothold, a new lease on life. >> it has been the most shameful thing that any president has done in modern history. >> the democratic candidates were expressing outrage over

donald trump's decision to pull american troops out of syria last week following the call with a leader of turkey and the catastrophic consequences therein, this story broke over the last few hours. "washington post" reports giuliani urged donald trump to follow through on a type priority of turkey. erdogan blames for an attempted coup against him. ept another instance in which he appears to have been pushing a shadow foreign policy from his purge outside the government. michael flynn who lasted all of 27 days in his job in 2017 and who now awaits sentencing on charges he lied to the fbi about his context with russian officials also tried to persuade

trump to turn him over to the turkish autocrat who happened to to have been paying him. david i'm going to go to you on this because you raised the question of foreign policy. this week we saw pure crisis resulting from donald trump's decision to yank u.s. troops out of syria and the benefits that that served to russia and to the autocrat in syria. do you think that -- i mean to me it seemed that buttigieg really shined in this part of the debate because he really was able to bring to bear his own service and sound coherent on it. in your mind, did he or anyone else stand out to you as rising to the moment? >> i think mayor pete certainly did. we heard specifics to joe biden, reference to no fly zone as perhaps the next military step to take. this provides interesting dynamic to the foreign policy debate for the candidates

because it was such a personal moment of donald trump the man where the world witnessed the depravity of the man, if you will, who by a singular decision knew he was unleashing carnage on the kurds and he allowed it to happen which was why there's a visceral reaction among the voters. and the candidates on stage tonight knew that they could play to that, rightfully so, and address the anger of the american people. you heard that in the clips you played from biden and warren talking about what trump had unleashed, what trump had done. but what i was referencing before the break is there's also a missed opportunity though if you go in that direction, you don't have the opportunity to highlight if you were commander in chief as mayor pete was trying to establish, if i was commander in chief, this is what i would now do. the obama administration admitted they had to settle on the least bad option in syria. what had happened is it played relatively to a stand still. we were not in an active war in

syria. we had lost about ten american soldiers i believe but it wasn't an active conflict. we played to a stand still and that was the least bad option. trump has created a situation where every option is worse than it was before. and in those moments you look to a commander in chief. i don't know that we saw that moment from any single candidate tonight but i give the edge to mayor pete among the others. >> this is from the producers. this is one of the moments in which he was discussing the issue. here it is, mayor pete. >> look, i didn't think we should have gone to iraq in the first place. i think we need to get out of afghanistan. but it's also the case that a small number of specialized special operations forces and intelligence capabilities were the only thing that stood between that part of syria and what we're seeing now which is the beginning of a genocide and the resurgence of isis. meanwhile, soldiers in the field are reporting that for the first time they feel ashamed -- ashamed -- of what their country

has done. we saw a spectacle, horrifying sight of a woman with a lifeless body of her child in her arms asking what the hell happened to american leadership. when i was deployed one of the things keeping me safe was the flag on my shoulder represented a country known to keep its word and our allies knew it and our enemies knew it. you take that away you're taking away what makes america america. it makes your troops and the world a dangerous place. >> the big picture of this election is it's not a student council election. there's so much at stake in terms of the american image around the world and destabilizing effect of having that image so depleted and having us move into what malcolm nance called the axis of autocracies rather than the allies we've traditionally had. did you feel that the weight of that came through in this debate tonight? >> i think that was mayor pete's

best moment when he was talking about his own service and what it means to have american value lieus and what the flag means when we help our allies. that was strong. but there was no plan b. there was no clear assessment of what would be done differently. how do you make sure we're rectifying those issues. we can basically have an individual in the white house that is literally with his hands breaking the world order that the united states created right after world war ii. and we're not giving anybody leadership. so, there was no plan of how do we get back, how do we rest duty that authority, how do we make sure we find those allies to come back to us and how do we hold those individuals breaking those promises accountable. that was missing. >> i want to now play a clip of the person with whom mayor pete was having the back and forth, and that is tulsi gabbard, the other military veteran on the stage tonight among the 12. here she is. >> the fodder of the kurds being done by turkey is yet another

negative consequence of the regime change war, ongoing regime change war. regime change war. smeared veterans like myself for calling for an end to this regime change war. as president, i will end these regime change wars. >> now, she said that phrase ten times, regime change wars. ten times in ten minutes. something stood out to myself and to susan glasser of the new yorker about tulsi gabbard's commentary. glasser wrote how odd to listen to tulsi gabbard mouthing syrian and russian talking points oen the stage tonight. no one thinks it was part of a regime change war by the u.s. it's as untrue as anything from the president of the united states. clint clinton watts tweeted we did not initiate a regime change. the u.s. did not back al quaeda

in syria. why didn't any of the moderates challenge her. none of the other 11, including mayor pete, no one said what regime? she has been somebody who is seen to defend bashar al-assad. >> and not blame assad at all for this. >> this isn't iraq. syria is a completely different situation but she seemed to be merging it. i think a lot of us were opposed to the iraq war. >> every debate she's had an interesting dynamic. as the field narrows, it's not clear whether she'll qualify for the next debate. there's so many candidates in each debate we have sort of different personalities, marianne williamson, andrew wang, tulsi gabbard who can change the tone or the mood of the debates. they're thinning out. i think that will create less of a distraction on stage for what some of the core issues are that we see the candidates going

around. of course syria, the democrats finally had a moment to get on one of the main issues that's going on in the news right now that has been dominated by trump and that they have not been getting any oxygen in on. in this moment where they had to really show themselves as commander in chief, i think spoch of that conversation, obviously pete buttigieg was able to use that as a moment to assert his foreign policy credence shls, but tulsi gabbard took a lot of that away. i think as the field narrows, there'll be more opportunity. >> i think it is weird that people did not take the opportunity to challenge her on that. quickly before we go, carine, this is for you. i want to play a person who took good advantage of this debate for himself. this is julian castro. >> the folks this week that saw those images of isis prisoners running free, to think about how absurd it is that this president

is caging kids on the border and effectively letting isis prisoners run free. >> well done. >> yeah, that was really well done because immigration didn't come up at all. that's an issue that he really has stood behind and elevated in this national debate. and i thought he used that moment. and you didn't hear a lot from julian castro. you really didn't. >> well, there were 43 people on stage. >> there were 143 people -- yeah, there were tons of people. so, that was a smart move by julian. >> it is worth repeating that immigration did not come up. it's so important to moderate voetders. >> it is. >> i think it goes back to the point that they didn't grow the base in any way whether you're talking to independents or latinos. that's the big problem. they need to figure out how to break through and grow that base. >> thank you all very much. now you can get some sleep. up next talking about the i word. i'm not getting sleep. we're going to talk about what

the candidates had to say about the effort to impeach donald trump and remove him from the presidency. >> i just want to start by reminding everybody that every candidate here is more decent, more coherent, and more patriotic than the criminal in the white house.

welcome back to msnbc special postdemocratic debate

coverage. i'm joy reed. in this first debate since the house impeachment inquiry began, there was one thing all the kapd dats agreed upon for the most part, impeachment. all 12 candidates expressed support for at least the inquiry with several saying they're ready to vote to remove donald trump from office right now. >> this is about donald trump, but understand it's about the next president and the next president and the next president and the future of this country. >> he will not cooperate in any way at all, will not list any witnesses, will not provide information, will not do anything to cooperate with the impeachment. they have no choice but to move. >> i think that the house will find him guilty of worthy of impeachment because of the emoluments clause. >> as a former prosecutor i know a confession when i see it. and he did it in plain sight. >> we must be fair. we are talking about ongoing

proceedings to remove a sitting president from office. this has got to be about patriotism and not partisanship. >> we have a constitutional duty to pursue this impeachment. >> we have to impeach this president and majority of americans not only support impeachment, they support removal. >> it's a mistake on the part of republicans who support this president. >> i think it should continue to play the course out, all the information, provide that to the american people recognizing that that is the only way forward. >> we have a responsibility to be fearless in the face of this president's criminality and lawlessness. >> in fact impeachment is something the american people are demanding. >> we need to talk about a new vision and includes impeaching donald trump. >> jason johnson, jonathan

alter, daily beast columnist, joel payne, democratic strategist. okay. tiffany, i'll start with you. everyone pretty much agreed on this. there were some nuances on how far they thought people should go. was it possible for people to stand out on this issue? >> no and i thought this was a bad way to start the debate. i think you have to get the american people while you have them with competing interests. this isn't something the american people are focused on. i think a lot of the questions off the top are things that people are sitting around talking about, not necessarily what people are talking about in barbershops and on corners and in their homes or whatever. i think a better question may have been what's your argument to the person who says look, let's just let the election happen? that would have been i think a way where you could see more daylight between the candidates. but i will say i thought mayor

pete gave a great response. i thought his response was best when he said shame on the republicans for not standing with us. you're seeing a lot of the same rhetoric with members of congress going home and having democratic constituents saying impeachment is going far. i think you have to learn how to clap back at those people, you have to make this argument. i thought it was a missed opportunity for the moderators to present it in a way to the contenders for them to make this case to the american people. >> this is buttigieg. this is 24 seconds. this is him and his argument for impeachment. >> look, the president has left the congress with no choice and this is not just about holding the president accountable. for not just the things emerging in thaez investigations but actions he has confessed to on television. it's also about the presidency itself because a president ten years or a hundred years from now will look back at this

moment and draw the conclusion either that no one is above the law or that a president can get away with anything. >> and that was good. let's play cory booker also. cut four. this is cory booker. listen to that. >> we have to conduct this process in a way that is honorable. i swore an oath to do my job as a senator, do my duty. this president has violated his. i will do mine. >> so, jason, that was an answer to a question i thought was one of the oddest questions tonight was do you think you can be fair to donald trump. that was a weird framing that was sort of put to several of them. do you think that you could treat the man fair? >> first off, the man doesn't treat anybody fair so the whole thing is crazy and ridiculous. this is what happens when you ask a lot of people when there's not a lot of daylight between the two the same question. corey gave a nice answer and joe and biden.

you should have started with tulsi gabbard because she was the only person on the stage who was initially against impeachment and changed her mind. ask people on the areas where they may have difference. even if you say the argument can you be fair one way or another, senator harris and one point biden said we're not going to give a direct answer but now the evidence is clear. i think that was a weakness on the part of the moderators but it's also what happens when you have 12 zillion people competing. >> elizabeth warren was the first to come out of the gate. let's play what she had to say. >> we took a constitutional oath and that is that no one is above the law and that includes the president of the united states. impeachment is the way that we establish that this man will not be permitted to break the law over and over without consequences.

this is about donald trump, but understand it's about the next president and the next president and the next president and the future of this country. >> senator. >> the impeachment must go forward. >> thank you. >> elizabeth warren is good at explaining things. let's stipulate to that. i think she gave the most coherent clear answer for someone who doesn't understand why this is being done. >> that's one of her great skills and why she's the front runner. she's the best communicator and usually the best communicator wins. but she actually went -- she got steam when she came out for impeachment. that was a very big moment for her campaign. she was early. she was actually not the first one. the first one tom steyer. he's the one i have a bone to pick with. okay. the guy has spent $47 million buying himself on to that stage. that could fund more than a thousand campaigns for state representative in this country. and do you know that today there was an article in the "new york times" about what's going on in

ohio where more than 300,000 people, voters, have been purged from the -- and there's one guy -- it says he's getting donations from his relatives. he has no money and he's just sitting there with his computer trying to save hundreds of thousands of votes, most of them for democrats. where is the help from the dnc, from the tom steyers of the world? they're not focused on job one which is fighting voter suppression. for this guy to be running for president instead of being out there getting the senate back, fighting voter suppression, it's really disaint potentialing. >> and by the way, he came up with the need to impeach before he was running for president. a lot of people said this was because you want to run for president. he said no it's not but it turned out it was. >> he built support. it was good for the environment. he needs to get off the ego trip and go to what he was doing before. >> let me play joe biden. impeachment swirled around him

and the family situation and the attack on him by the outside group, the three amigos they call themselves. here's joe biden. >> this president, and i agree with bernie -- senator sanders -- is the most corrupt president in modern history and i think all of our history. this president of the united states has gone so far as to say since this latest event that in fact he will not cooperate in any way at all will not list any witnesses, will not provide information, will not do anything to cooperate with the impeachment. they have no choice but to move. >> you know, joel, i don't know if you have a sense of kind of flash back. he is in the position in a lot of ways that hillary clinton, your candidate in 2016 was. how do you think he's navigating that position as differently -- or is he navigating it differently than secretary clinton did? >> i don't think he's navigating

it that differently at all. i think that's what's giving a lot of heartache to a lot of establishment democrats who feel like they're seeing replay of 3 1/2 years ago. that is with all due respect to my former boss the former secretary of state. donald trump can run the same campaign against joe biden he ran against hillary clinton. he can take the play book, dust it off, replace emails and clinton foundation with ukraine and hunter biden, insert, control, delete and run the same campaign. i think that's what's got a lot of democrats concerned. that's not to say that joe biden can't beat donald trump but it's an easy comfortable campaign for donald trump to run. i think what you're seeing is a difficulty in joe biden getting out of the shadow of his past in a similar way to how hillary clinton ugh stralled as well. so, i think that's a good point to bring up. >> i don't know about that. >> oh, everybody got thoughts. everybody got thoughts.

we'll let y'all give your thoughts on the other side of the break. age is just a number unless you're running for president. biden, warren, and sanders answered questions about their seniority and health. >> now to the issues of candidates and their health. senator sanders i want to start with you -- we're moving on. >> i'm healthy. i'm feeling great.

these folks, they don't have time to go to the post office they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps.com

print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the amazing services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again! the three highest polling candidates in tonight's democratic presidential debate could not escape the subject of their age. two hours into the debate the moderators asked how senator bernie sanders who recently suffered a heart attack at age 78, joe biden, 76, and elizabeth warren, 70 could reassure viewers they're up to the task. >> we're going to be mounting a vigorous campaign all over this

country. that's how i can reassure the american people. let me take this moment to thank so many people from all over this country including many of my colleagues up here for their love, for their prayers, for their well wishes. and i just want to thank you from the bottom of my heart, and i'm so happy to be back here with you this evening. >> i know what the job is. i've been engaged. look, one of the reasons i'm running is because of my age and my experience. with it comes wisdom. we need someone to take office this time around who on day one can stand on the world stage, command the respect of world leaders from putin to our allies, and know exactly what has to be done to get this country back on track. >> i will outwork, outorganize, and outlast anyone, and that includes donald trump, mike pence, or whoever the republicans get stuck with. >> we will look at the age issue and solve all the other little

panel disagreements that we had before the break when we come back. break when we come back

my absolutely insane panel is back with us. jason, you look a little -- somehow you all look different but i can't -- >> i'm spry, i'm excited. >> vigorous i think is the word i'm looking for. >> vigorous. i'm going to outwork and outcampaign everybody. >> i believe that about elizabeth warren. the age thing did come up. you were saying earlier to blend this with our previous conversation, yes joe biden is of a certain age, but he's established. >> you can't do to joe biden what you did to hillary clinton. uncle joe is uncle joe. people know who joe is. they know him from the obama administration. you can't transform him into someone who's a corrupt or swamp monster. that's why donald trump is going to have so much trouble. unless you're bernie sanders who

had a heart attack, it's not american gladiator. you don't have to go through an obstacle course. unless you look spry, i don't think age matters. >> i'm just glad to know what caused so much twitter. i didn't know what i said. that's good to know. >> are they coming at you? >> i had no idea. jason, look, that's a fair point. i don't think either hillary clinton or joe biden are corrupt. i'm talking about how the president and his machine is going to wash and repeat the same thing they did four years ago with, you know, joe biden that they did with hillary clinton. i think that it's the same type of campaign. you can run against the washington establishment with joe biden like you did with inhad ton. we're not talking about reality here. donald trump is the president. we're talking about how they are going to blow that up. >> and tiffany, the spectacles. >> she looks so much smarter. >> girl power.

the reality is hillary clinton had a 63% approval rating after she finished her tenure of secretary of state. between the media's obsession with emails and the way trump characterized her, this guy who's foundation had to close in new york managed to get the whole country to focus on her corruption and emails, how would it be different for biden. >> he got the country to focus on emails and there was also russia helping. now they have iran and china. so, the election should be something we should watch. look i take your point jason. i think the biden campaign has to be smart enough and not let donald trump lead them around and goat them into a fight. we saw this fail with elizabeth warren with the native american -- it's a bad idea. the media also. you have to -- there are no

innocent bystanders here and you have to fault the media for this. you cannot adopt gop talking points. it seems the media is concerned with not offended trump voters. we didn't need to have this expose with hunter biden until we see a money timeline of ivanka who has made $82 million while donald trump is in the white house. donald trump would run that campaign not because it makes sense but it's the only campaign he knows ho run. he has no issues to run on, no success to run on. to the point you made -- i don't want you to think i'm stealing your ideas or points, just your glasses -- he has not gained new voters. >> jonathan, the question becomes who would be the most challenging for donald trump to formulate that kind of campaign against? this week you had the aoc, the squad endorse bernie sanders. that came out tonight.

you have sanders saying elizabeth warren is a capitalist. i wonder if they think it would be easier to run against her. >> that may be the most important development of this whole week because what it allows elizabeth warren to do, trump is going to run against the squad. he's indicated that. she could say the squad endorsed my opponent. you talking to me? but she's still vulnerable on medicare for all. she's in a political box right now. we're going to see how she gets out of that box. it's not popular with unions and there are people who are perfectly happy with their health insurance shs not popular with them to say you're not going to be able -- we're going to take that choice away from you. she's going to have to figure out how to have some kind of retreat on that. she'll probably wait as long as she can but that's a pretty big target on her back. when she says i'm only going to make the wealthy pay more.

what's wealthy? on the wealth tax that's fine because everyone knows they don't have 50 million. but when it comes to medicare for all, what's wealthy? if you make 100,000 are you going to be paying more. one word answer whoch. who had the best night? >> pete. >> pete. >> pete. >> continue the debate on twitter. thank you guys for joining me. that wraps up the hour of the coverage. thanks, our coverage continues after the break.

. so begins day 1,000. the. >> you say that every night. >> of this at mgs. and i'm brian williams along with nicole wallace. we hope is obvious. and we're continuing our coverage to have night's fourth democratic presidential debate. first debate since the democrats opened their impeachment inquiry on the hill. the largest presidential primary debate ever with 12 candidates. health care among the topics of tonight's debate. mayor pete waste nd no time clashing with senator warren on that