foreign leader. we have the president saying what's really on his mind. what he's really thinking. what really no leader of any organization would say, there it is on twitter. >> all right. mike allen live for us in washington. >> thanks, mike. >> call you later. >> yeah, we'll be reading axios a.m. in just a little bit. go out there and sign up for that newsletter as well as signup.axios.com. >> that does it for us. "morning joe" starts right now. my experience with the president is that he makes decisions and then absorbs date and facts, evaluates situations. if we need to adjust our policy to achieve our goals. >> president trump makes decisions and then absorbs data and facts. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, october 17th. along with joe, willie and me,

we have mike barnicle ar associate editor noah rothman. the president of the council on foreign relations and author of the book "a world in disarray" richard haass. and msnbc political analyst and former chairman of the republican committee michael steele. we begin this morning with really sad news. long time maryland congressman elijah cummings passed away this morning at the age of 68. the congressman's office says he died at john's hopkins hospital at around 2:45 this morning due to complications from longstanding health issues. cummings, who was born and raised in baltimore, maryland, where he still lived up to his death represented maryland's seventh congressional district since 1996. he was known for his devotion to his hometown as well as his passion for civil rights. the son of former share

croppers, he began his life of public service in maryland's house of delegates where he served for 14 years become being the state's first african-american speaker protem. cummings served as chairman of house and oversight committee. he is survived by his wife and three children and we personally are heartbroken this morning. >> we are heartbroken. elijah was a dear friend. he was a trusted colleague. and he was a fierce advocate for his constituents at home and for all of you americans who hunger for justice and hunger for truth in these troubled times. par par we wewe were honored th agreed to marry me and mika last year, it seemed just perfect. and he was just perfect. it was so great to have him, our

dear friend there. but we're even more grateful for the public service that he so selflessly committed his life to every day of his life. he will now be mourned and his remarkable life will be celebrated and his work, his work, it will be completed. that's the very least that this great country owes to elijah cummings during these dark days and troubled times. willie, obviously he had not been doing well physically, but this still comes as a shock and there's a great hole in our hearts because he's such a dear friend, but also in congress right now he -- he has played a critical role in seeking the

truth, trying to get to the bottom of all the facts of the chaos that is swirling around the white house and swirling around washingt around washington as well as capitals across the world. and, boy, he will be missed. >> without question. what a stunner this morning. our condolences go out first to his family, all of his colleagues. and when i say colleagues, i mean democrats and republicans. he's gone out of his way, as you know very well, joe, to befriend republicans to get things done. my condolences to you. i know what a close friend he was to both of you. this is a loss for the country. this isn't about politics. yes, he was the chairman of the oversight committee doing important work in this moment in our nation's history, but this is a loss for the country. a man who's parents were share croppers from south carolina, moved to baltimore for a better life for their family. watched their son grow up to be a united states congressman and chairman of the oversight committee. michael steele, i know he was a friend of yours.

obviously you're a maryland guy, you work closely with elijah cummings, knew him well through the years. i was looking through some old quotes from congressman cummings and just this year during the michael cohen hearing he sort of reached out to cohen who looked sort of distraught and wasn't doing well in the hearing and congressman cummings said this: when we're dancing with the angels the question will being asked, in 2019 what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy intact? and i think he really saw that as his role at this time. he sort of reached out and comforted michael cohen but also spoke to greater questions about where the country is and where the country's headed. >> you know, willie, he had his finger on a different pulse. a lot of times in politics people, you know, just -- just the top line stuff, you know, who's up, who's down, who's winning, who's losing? the one thing that i learned from my experience as former state chairman, republican state chairman of maryland, former

lieutenant-governor of maryland, i had the opportunity to work with and battle with elijah, and he always his finger on the pulse of the people. he always understood what was needed, what was necessary. he cared so deeply about not just the city of baltimore, but the state of maryland and the country of the united states, the people of the united states. and he brought that passion to his work every day in the congress. i remember doing -- when i ran for the u.s. senate in 2006 i was talking to him you have those moments, those chance moments during the campaign you run into the, quote, opposition. i looked at him and i said, look, you guys have got to go easy on me. he looked at me and said, brother, we're always easy on you, it's about public service. and that's -- that, to me, was elijah. he understood the partisan lines and he knew where they were drawn, but, again, he always had his finger on the pulse of what people needed to get through the day to make their dreams come

true. and we will miss him. mia and the family, our hearts go out to you. the great city of baltimore, you have lost a champion but his spirit will remain true and you need to remain true to that spirit, just as willie noted in his words of encouragement and service. >> you know, mike, there is such partisanship in washington, d.c., but elijah really did, he moved beyond that. he transcended that. when we worked together, he was ranking member, i was chairman of a committee and we were fighting for long-term healthcare for all federal employees. and it seemed that we were actually fighting with staff members on our own side who said you can't make a deal with the other side. you can't do it.

leadership will just pound you. this is not the time to do it. and elijah, you could trust his word. in fact, i trusted him more than i trusted people on my own side. and he trusted me more because we gave each other our words, we had each other's back, and we got it done when nobody thought it was going to get done. and, you know, as you know, sadly, over the past 20 years or so that -- that didn't happen so much in washington, d.c. you always had to watch your back. i never did because this guy was more than a close friend. he was a man of his word. >> joe, willie and i were fortunate in that we got to know him because of your friendship with him, because of mika's friendship with him. we got to know him in a way we don't get to know a lot of

members of congress. and one of the things that resinates about elijah cummings in a world, washington, d.c., filled every day with daily bouts of horrific polarization that verges on sounding like hate when you look at it from the outside, elijah cummings stood every day for fairness. he stood every day for equity. he stood every day for moving the ball forward. not just for his city of baltimore. and people look at congressmen and they say -- and senators, they say ed markey from massachusetts or chuck shumer from new york. but elijah cummings fwraent baltimore, he was of baltimore. he went home i think nearly every night. he lived with the people that he represented, fought for the people in the great city that he represented that has been through so much. but during the course of his days in washington he stood for

something and represented something that is unique. fairness and a measured approach to things. fought fiercely for the things he believed in, that he thought would improve this country on a daily basis. look at his relationship with mark meadows and trey gowdy during the hearings on hillary clinton. he was fair. he fought for fairness even when he was minority chair, when he was majority chair he was the same. that's, i think, a voice that is going to be astoundingly missed. >> and joe and mika, i'm thinking back to another moment earlier this year, an oversight committee hearing where congresswoman rashida tlaib accused mark meadows of being a racist. who was the voice in that room saying hold on, let's talk this out. we don't hear a lot of that and see that in public view for sure in washington in our national politics right now. he had a line, he would say in interviews with us, come on, now, like let's go, america. come on. let's be reasonable and talk this out. come on, now.

i think that's a great refrain for our times and a good way to honor elijah cummings. >> he was impatient about what was so bactiosic, pay the yomtr he was everything we aspired to be every day. >> as willie said, that come on now. >> i can hear it. >> that say good refrain for our times. we'll keep talking about elijah throughout the joe. >> show you those moments. >> but let's get to some more news. another head-spinning day in washington. >> my gosh. if you think it couldn't get anymore unbelievable. the day culminated with this now iconic photo of house speaker nancy pelosi standing among a roomful of men with her finger pointed at the president if the was tweeted by the president after a contentious white house meeting with congressional leaders discussing the situation in syria. >> look at the men to the right of the president.

there's a reason why their heads are bowed. >> that's correct. >> there's a reason why they look ashamed. because they know that this liberal house speaker from san francisco, california, knows best in that room what is best for national security, what is best for our men and women in uniform, what is best for the united states of america's national security. not betraying our allies. not strengthening iran. just look at them hanging their heads in shame. >> it's an incredibly symbolic picture of everything that's going on. we're told these talks broke down and ended with democratic leaders walking out. the president later tweeted, nancy pelosi needs help fast. there's either something wrong with her upstairs or she just plain doesn't like our great country. >> doesn't read the rest of that, it's so stupid. you know what? people who love america knows

that america he's strength -- take that down, that america gets strength end, mika, when our allies are strengthened and when our enemies, people who want to destroy us are actually -- we resist them. >> things went south when pelosi explained to the president that russia has always wanted a foothold in the middle east and now has one with the u.s. withdrawal. we're told pelosi then said to trump, quote, all roads with you lead to putin. wow. well, that explains his tweet. he was called out. with trump responding, i hate isis more than you do. she hit back saying, you don't know that. as the ap notes, senator minority leader chuck schumer intervened at one point and said is your plan to rely on the syrians and the turks? trump replied our plan is to keep the american people safe. pelosi said that's not a plan, that's a goal. trump also suggested that

democrats like the kurds in part because they included some communists. democratic leaders say it was when the president called pelosi a, quote, third-grade politician possibly meaning third rate that they got up and left with the president telling them on the way out, good-bye, we'll see you at the polls. multiple aides say at one point during the meeting trump also called his former defense secretary jim mattis the world's most overrated general saying, according to one aide he wasn't tough enough. i captured isis. mattis said mattis said it would take two years. i captured them in one month. the contention meeting was the first time trump and pelosi have been in the same room since she declared an official launch of the impeachment inquiry. the house speaker says that issue did not come up. here's some of what the democrats had to say after the meeting. >> on the part of the president was a meltdown. sad to say.

>> he was insulting. particularly to the speaker. she kept her cool completely. but he called her a third rate politician. this was not a dialogue, it was sort of a diatribe, a nasty diatribe. >> what did the president say that got this meeting on the wrong foot? leader schumer said he called you a third rate politician? >> no, no, a third grade. >> a third grade. >> thank you for clarifying. >> i said i wish he were a politician. >> let me stop right there. you know, willie, it's just so remarkable, you just look at the president's tweets and you hear what he said yesterday. this is a man who is isolated and by himself. the pentagon disagrees with him. the state department disagrees with him. republicans disagree with him. in fact, an overwhelming majority of republicans disagree with him. lindsey graham just absolutely scolded a state department official that came over and he

talked about how the strengthen the iranians, this strengthens assad, it weakened israel, it weakened the kurds, and then as if the insanity was not enough, donald trump parroted the words of erdogan and actually said that our allies, the kurds, who helped destroy isis were a greater threat than isis themselves. a dark, dark day for america at home and with our allies. and unfortunately our enemies, the message we send to our enemies that we are weak, that we capitulate, that donald trump is scared, that he's a frightened man, that he will always surrender. he is the head of the surrender caucus. but that caucus keeps getting smaller by the day. he is a man alone. >> joe, let's underline what the president said yesterday.

he said the pkk, the kurds with whom we've been fighting to defeat isis who we just abandoned a week or so ago, was worse than isis. let's listen to what he said. >> and the kurds are much safer right now but the kurds know how to fight. and, as i said, they're not angels, they're not angels. take a look. you have to go back and take a look. but they fought with us. we paid a lot of money for them to fight with us and that's okay. they did well when they fought with us. they didn't do so well when they didn't fight with us. and i say why are we protecting syria's sfland assad's not a friend of ours, why are we protecting their land? and syria also has a relationship with the kurds who, by the way, are no angels. if russia's going to help in protecting the kurds, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. now the pkk, which is a part of the kurds, as you know, is probably worse at terror and more of a terrorist threat in many ways than isis. so it's a very semi complicated,

not too complicated if you're smart, but it's a semi complicated problem. and i think it's a problem that we have very nicely under control. >> that say is a stunning remark and even republicans were saying that was a stunning and appalling remark. what the backdrop was yesterday was a vote 354 to 60 in the house to rebuke the president on this question of stepping aside for the turks to go into syria. that's a huge vote, that's a lot of republicans, including some who are sitting in that room with him when nancy pelosi stood across from the table and wagged her finger at him. he put out this wild letter dated october the 9th that i guess he thought made him look in hindsight like a tough guy, like he was going to going after erdogan. if it went out when the president says it went out, erdogan clearly through threw in the garbage and sent his troops into northeast syria.

reporting in the "wall street journal," joe, that we are bombing our own bases in syria as our troops move aside so that russians and turks can't occupy those bases. he's made a colossal mistake and now he's trying to rationalize it. >> we're bombing our bases, there's a chaotic, frantic retreat. donald trump has once again surrendered. he's once again appeased vladimir putin. again, as everybody knows that watches this show, this is the first time since 1973 that russia has been in the middle east. donald trump is now ceding that region, ceding that region to vladimir putin. it makes no sense. he is now a parrot of erdogan calling the kurds our closest allies over the past several years fighting to destroy isis, he's now saying they're more dangerous than isis. we had an adam kinzinger tweet

up. obviously adam and everybody else just in horror. wow, we bombed our own base on purpose because of the impulsive decision by real donald trump. he didn't leave time to evacuate the right way. is this republicans, is this, asks adam kinzinger, the america that you grew up believing in? mika, i cannot tell you what i would do to a democrat on a campaign trail when i was running for congress that capitulated to putin, that bombed our own outposts, that attacked, attacked our closest allies, that capitulated to vladimir putin in helsinki, that surrendered to kim jong-un time and time again, made a fool of himself time and time again to

kim jong-un, and basically capitulated to the worst communists, the worst dictators, the worst tyrants on the globe. that's who the republicans have now running their country. that's who they right now are allowing to be their commander and chief. >> and these republicans will have to deal with the fact richard haass, the consequences of this act, of this decision, they're being played out in realtime for everybody to see. >> absolutely. but you've got two sets of consequences, and that's what's so worrying here, mika. one is the local consequences. it's a question of when and not if. and when the can be pretty soon that isis reconstitutes itself. the kurds have moved away from keeping the isis terrorists penned up. the turks haven't taken on the mission, as best we can see. that's definitely. they're coming back. then you've got all the things joe was alluding to. syria has control control of

this country, it's a brutal regime. turkey is committing ethnic cleansing. we could go on and on. but all the consequences for this for what was already the most turbulent dangerous part of the world. you've got the war in yemen, failed state in libya. you had the wars in syria, you still have an israeli/palestinian issue. so there's that. and this is even more important. what this does is it raises fundamental questions about american reliability. so if you're sitting in moscow, you're sitting in beijing, to me, the single most dangerous part of this is this serial reluctance to stand by friends, the serial reluctance to use military force. if you're putin he's thinking about this is something to do something in europe to end nato once and for all? if you're xi jinping who's a nan

a hurry, this is this the time we take the chance to do something against taiwan? because we're not sure what somebody like donald trump would do? i think the consequences of this are big not just for the middle east, that's plenty big. but actually for the entire world. we are in record time ending what has been essentially 70 years of an american-led international order that has worked clearly in our interests at a cost that was well worth paying. and almost akin to healthcare. let me make a domestic parallel. we're removing it without putting anything in its place. this is disruption on a grand scale. this is strategic recklessness. >> it is. it is anarchy, it is anarchy on a grand scale and we'll pay for it. noah, you look at what happened. i followed what you were saying yesterday and you were right, it's remarkable the scenes that were playing out yesterday on the battlefield in syria as

americans were forced in a frantic retreat to blow up their own equipment. and if you're vladimir putin, you don't read the mueller report to see if there's collusion. you've got to believe if you're vladimir putin that you have a collaborator for your cause in the white house. here is a man that undercuts nato every chance he gets. undercut the kurds who helped us destroy isis. undercut israel with this move. strengthened iran, strength end syria, and kooceded syria to rua for the first time in almost 50 years. >> it's pretty plain that if under the obama administration, let's say, we were executing air strikes on our own positions and beating a hasty retreat amid military pressure from our

allies, you'd have to medically resuscitate half the republican conference. it could be a political disaster, not to mention a strategic disaster. but it's worse than that. it's not as though russia and iran showed up in syria yesterday. moscow was invited by the obama administration in 2013, they interviewed militarily in 2015. i was one of those republicans. i remember a lot of republicans saying this was a dangerous concession to moscow in effort to give them a foothold. they have a port on the eastern mediterranean, give them a foothold in this region. we are cementing their foothold now. but when donald trump says things like syria hates isis more than we do, russia hates isis more than we do, our natural allies in this fight are iran and russia, it's a propaganda notion and it's not true the assad regime was purchasing oil from isis.

when russia intervened, they prioritized their fight against antigovernment rebels. they hit cia black sites in the country. these are not our allies. they do not have our best interests at heart. and when the president does make a concession, cedes our strategic interests to russia, you can be sure that they will not be seen to and that we will lose advantage as a result. >> now, you're exactly right. richard, these people that donald trump said would take care of isis empowered isis. syria bought oil from isis. turkey allowed isis to use -- basically they were the gateway into syria. isis fighters would go to turkey and freely let them flow across the border. and what is so concerning, and willie let they throw this out to you, what is so kerk concerns they were warned. donald trump was warned about the rise of isis, about a month ago the pentagon i girks

released ig saying isis is coming back. that was about a month ago. just as mitt romney said yesterday, what would happen if he surrendered? if he beat a speedy retreat? if he -- if he collapsed? and that's exactly what he did. and everything this guy has been warned about, these worst case scenarios have all come true and he still is parroting the words of erdogan, of putin, of assad. >> well, go back a year agoing to general mattis the guy he defamed reportedly in that meeting yesterday who resigned because donald trump wanted to walk away from syria. general mattis, all the generals, the politicians, republicans, donald trump's friends, people in the white house, they all knew. they all knew what was going to happen. this has played out exactly the way everyone said, perhaps a little faster than we thought. i also don't know that anyone

thought, let's say again, the united states would be carrying out air strikes against its own bases because the russians were seen in propaganda video a couple days ago playing around in our bases as they occupied them. mike, i'll let you have at it with the syrian question but i want to put the photo up of the meeting yesterday. >> yes. >> the president of the united states tweeted this out as if it were good for him. he characterized this as nancy pelosi somehow looking nervous, somehow having a meltdown, which as if you need ned other evidence of how the president views women, that in his view say meltdown. might look like strength to him if a man were standing and doing that. but he thought that photograph was good for him. that came from the president of the united states and his twitter account. does that look like a person, a leader, a woman having a meltdown to you or someone that's nervous? >> let's keep that photo up because it says a lot about where we are. sadly we have sat here, all of us, each and every morning

through three years now making light sometimes of things the president of the united states has said or done. but this is no longer funny. this yesterday was a mixture of incompetence and incredible danger. the person sitting to president trump's right is the newly installed chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley. there he is. he's been on the job for about two weeks succeeding general joe dunford who was the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff who was run of the real last barriers that was -- that president trump would bump into when he was about to do something crazy. yesterday the president of the united states in attack general jim mattis said this about mattis in terms of isis. mattis -- this is a quote. mattis said it would take two years to defeat isis. i captured them in one month.

put yourself in mark milley's place there. i captured them in one month. i captured them. the president of the united states saying that, richard, and you've got to wonder, not just mark milley listening to this insti insanity, in london, in paris, what are leaders around the world, our allies who now feel disenfranchised and suffered from us, what must they think? >> what they think is painfully clear. this is not the united states they thought they knew. this is an unrecognizable country. and for them, it's hard to exaggerate how dang truss is, mike, because this is the country they have essentially placed their security in our hands. and you have things like i defeated isis, the personalization of it. but you don't defeat isis once and for all. we're going to find out in a very painful way isis was not

defeated, they're coming back. you read that letter, the letter that the president sent to his turkish counterpart. no head of government or state sends letters like that. it opens us up to a kind of reit ridicule coming on the heels of the love letters to the leader of north korea. what the president is doing through his tweets, his comments, his letters is he is basically undermining the strength of the word of the president of the united states. what worries me about all of this is the sum total will be that people will start listening to the president of the united states. they won't take him seriously. and that means our friends won't trust us and they'll basically start going their own way and it means our foes won't respect us. that sis a really dangerous tur of events back up that's where we are right now. >> well, and michael steele, not only world leaders have to be concerned, but americans have to be concerned. >> yeah. >> and let me say this.

>> sabotage. >> republicans, those of us who spent decades carrying a constitution around in our pocket, those of us who warned against runaway executive power, those of us who warned about using presidential declarations too much, executive orders too much, think about this. the president talked about i beat isis in a month. the same president who said when i took over the united states, the same president who said when i took over the military, the same president who said article two of the constitution allows me to do whatever i want. >> yeah. >> republicans, michael, they are our friends in that party, they know. they know he's not well

emotionally. they know he's not well mentally. they know that. but put that aside. they also know that this is a man with illiberal instincts, with anti-democratic impulses who really does believe that his power is unlimited. it is an anamatha to everything we stand for and he undermines safeguards every single day. >> so, joe, this is what the handiwork of a stable genius looks like. and for individuals who have supported trump's behavior, his outbursts, his illiberal instincts, it's now coming home for them. to listen to folks like lindsey graham and others bemoan this

decision, having thought beforehand their proximity to the president would be the soothing bomb that trump would listen to them now find themselves on the outs. what did the president say about lindsey graham yesterday in his remark? lindsey graham should stick to judiciary. he should stick to doing the work of the senate, let me handle this because i know better. and at some point this becomes more personal for all of us. with isis now back on the streets, if you will, or with the uncertainty in the middle east, our allies checking out, they're just saying, you know what? we'll just dance with another partner. where does that leave the united states? and where does that leave a republican party that not only talked about law and order at home, but law and order abroad where we were part of a global -- leading a global coalition to protect and defend the ideals of democracy. now have a president who cedes

that to erdogan, to putin, to assad and says that they know better. their instincts are better about the globe and the prosperity of the world than our own. par par and th and that should be very troubling. it's a soul-searching moment for a lot of republicans to go you know this doesn't get better, don't you? you realize there is no good coming after this, because this is now on your watch, this is on your hands because you stood next to the stable genius who knew better than all of us and here we are in one hell of a mess. >> you know, willie there are was a time that lindsey actually agreed with our assessment on donald trump. of course, in 2016 before donald trump won the republican nomination lindsey said this. donald trump is not a conservative republican.

donald trump is an opportunityist. he is not fit to be president of the united states. lindsey was right the first time. and it seems as if he's circling back to that position, at least when it comes -- >> to foreign policy. >> -- to foreign policy, to protecting america. my god, willie, donald trump actually says it's not our problem. really? say that to people in san bernardino in 2015. say that to the people in paris in 2015. say that to all those who outside of the middle east who died at the hands of isis and ask them if this is something where we can just -- we can let

turkey worry about it. we can let putin worry about our safety and the safety of our families. i don't think most americans would buy knee donald trump's they're on that case. >> you know, after, joe, the president said that yesterday, congresswoman liz cheney who has been with the president on most things actually said to him the 9/11 hijackers came from 7,000 miles away when he said something to the effect these people are 3,000 miles away, let them settle their own problems. she stopped him and said the 9/11 hijackers were from 7,000 miles away. and if you look at the photo, steve scalise, the minority whip is at the end of the table with his head down as well. he and kevin mccarthy both in that meeting had just come out of a vote where they rebuked president trump. so with they vote they said this was a mistake and a disaster. they may come out publicly afterward and say nice things and criticize nancy pelosi, but they spoke yesterday with their votes.

these are allies of president trump. steve scalise and kevin mccarthy voted against the president. they voted for this house rebuke of donald trump and what he's doing in turkey. everyone knows that this was a mistake. everyone in that room, everyone at that table knows and it is hard, donald trump knows and he's trying to talk his way out of it with things that he's making up off the top of his head. >> so let's go to break. we're going to be remembering elijah all day. but as we go to break, i just want to show that picture again. we'll talk to chuck schumer about this. he was in a meeting, he's going to be with us later today. but i just want you to look at this picture. i want you to look at the democrats who eyes fixed, engaged as their leader speaks to a president who has surrendered ghosn putin, who has surrendered again to iran, and i

just want you to look at the people on the president's side of the table, the generals, the congressmen, the leaders bowing their heads in shame. we'll be right back. s in shame we'll be right back. as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. at liberty butchemel... cut. liberty mu... line? cut. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. cut. liberty m... am i allowed to riff? what if i come out of the water? liberty biberty... cut. we'll dub it. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ pain happens. saturdays happen. aleve it. aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong.

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syria may have some help with russia and that's fine. it's a lot of sand. they've got a lot of sand over there. so there's a lot of sand that they can play with. syria probably will have a partner of russia, whoever they may have, i wish them all a lot of luck. russia was involved in afghanistan, used to be called the soviet union. now it's called russia for a reason. because they lost so much money in afghanistan that they had to downsize. a very big downsizing. so if russia wants to get involved with syria, that's really up to them. >> i just have to stop here.

he's used this argument before. richard haass, it is so maddening that he -- i know he can't be that stupid. >> well, no. that's right. >> i know he can't be that stupid. >> so what's his game? >> for somebody to say that the soviet union collapsed because of afghanistan, that is so remarkably ignorant that you would have to have ignored russia's -- the soviet union 72-year history, 73, 74-year history to come to such an ignorant, ill-informed conclusion. and he's our commander and chief. >> but it's totally consistent with his narrative about foreign policy. he only sees the cost of foreign policy. he believes foreign policy drains the strength of a country. so he would naturally focus on afghanistan, which did hurt the

sovi soviet union, obviously, as the rationale or the explanation rather than its systemic problems, rather than what gorbachev did, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, rather than the strength of nato in the west. that for the entire four decades of the cold war competed successfully with the soviet union. but it's revealing. he came into office and nothing has changed his views that foreign policy is bad, that trade is bad. and what we're seeing in syria is essentially his acting out based on that. this is -- this is predictable. this is -- if nothing else, the guy is consistent. >> you know, willie, this is like donald trump -- mine, donald trump's not a 1950s man. he is like a 17th century man. this is a guy that believes you can have fortress america that only tall ships can make it across the atlantic. >> and moats. >> and the moats, the way he wants to defend the southern border is not with the greatest

technology on the face of the earth, which we have, which our military uses on the battlefield, but he wants to build a wall. hey, china beat to us that by a couple of thousand years. the problem is, though, these outdated ways of thinking, i mean, it's undermining america's national security. it's making us, it's making our families less safe. it's making the homeland less safe from future terrorist attacks. >> that was such a window yesterday into the president's thinking that everything is like a corporate transaction, whether you're talking about nato or the u.n. or in this case the, quote, downsizing of the soviet union. he said they lost so much money that they had to, quote, downsize like it was a company that had suffered a loss on its balance sheet. that's the way he views the world, as some kind of a transaction.

unfortunately it's much more complicated than that and, boy, did he reveal a lot about himself yesterday. let's turn now to a member of the armed services and homeland security committees. congresswoman elizabeth slotkin. good to see you this morning. just your reaction to an absolutely stunning wild day out of the white house. the rebuke from your body, the house of representatives of the president's policy as it pertains to turkey and syria, where do we go from here to somehow salvage what's happening in northeast syria? >> yeah, well, it was a really strong showing of bipartisanship yesterday, that was one the most bipartisan votes that we've had since i've been in congress since january. so that was a strong signal to the president that, you know, republicans and democrats don't agree with this policy. where do we go from here? it's definitely -- it's definitely going to be a challenge. and i think per your conversation you were just having, there's one conversation about, you know, betraying the kurds and, you know, sort of saying to the world that the american handshake doesn't mean something. but it speaks to a bigger sort

of problem for the future, which is, you know, how are we going to engage in these parts of the world? the whole reason that we were working with the kurds in the first place is because we had just lived through the iraq war. we had lost thousands of americans. we had lost billions of dollars and president obama and then president trump said it's better to fight by, with, and through partners on the ground. not american soldiers. not my step daughter who's in the military but folks from the region. that's what we did. we went into northern syria, shook their hands. a four-star general would go in and shake their hand and say we're going to support you if you risk life and limb to fight isis. we broke that promise. and that idea that somehow this model is going to be useable in the future when we've broken our word is something i really worry about because if it's not them on the front lines, it will be us being sucked back into these conflicts. >> so, congresswoman, during your time at the pentagon you helped create the defense

coalition to fight isis. you were part of the strategy that now the president is unraflgu unralphing. can y unr unraveling. when he said the pkk is worse than isis, could you explain to him why he may be wrong there? >> yeah. well, first of all, think it's important to say in the middle east not everyone is perfect. i don't want to say that any group is on the complete side of the angels. but the truth is, what isis was doing, taking over huge swaths of this country and iraq, setting up a caliphate, collecting taxes, organized bureaucracy, like they were going out and thinking about projecting attacks outside of that area into europe which they conduct and then even into the u.s. homeland. that is very, very different from the grievances that we're talking about between the turks and the kurds. i think to put them in the same category and for the president to say that somehow the kurds are more dangerous than isis, it

just doesn't reflect an actual understanding of the strategic threats to the united states. >> just one thing i sort of highlight one thing the congresswoman said. the kurds were our infantry there. they were our partner. they're not going to do it again. if we have to go back and fight isis, we're going to have to do it. she's exactly requirement. this is costly going down the road. i wanted to ask you now, what does congress do? obviously you and many of your colleagues think this is a seriously flawed policy for all sorts of good reasons. what do you feel now you can do to prevent certain things or to bring about certain things? what wreel powreal power do you this point? >> it's a great question. we have to acknowledge that in our system the president has real authority on foreign policy. so it's been difficult. we voted yesterday, but realistically that was something that just sort of pushed back on the policies. there are trips, codel's planned to go out to turkey and talk to

the turks. i think the congress has to acknowledge that our role in some of the appropriating of money needs to be looked at. we need to have a real conversation about sanctions on the turks. i think the conversation has already started and there's a couple different versions. but realistically it is the president of the united states that sets the tone in foreign fol policy that moves and creates that action and we're going to have to do some major, major repair work both with partners on the ground, but also within nato. we're going to have to have a real conversation with our nato allies and what's going to happen with turkey as they sort of, in my mind, start to tilt towards russia? >> congresswoman, do you think it would have been use envelope this moment if past congresses had pasted an authorization to use military force not only to legal eyes the presence of the military forces on ground but to do this in a binding fashion? >> think as someone who is married to someone who was in the army for 30 years and has a

step daughter in the army, i'm definitely interested in congress playing its role in as previe prescribed by the contusion in using military force. in this case the president has a lot of authority. he called up erdogan. he allowed him go in and do this. i don't think that an authorization of military force would have changed this president's behavior. but i definitely think that we have a problem that congress has sort of written itself out of authorizing war, right? it sort of backed away after the iraq war in 2002 and 2003 and said we don't want to take tough votes. i have a serious problem with that as someone who's worked alongside the military and is in a military family. >> congresswoman elissa slotkin, it's always great have you on the show. coming up, senate minority leader chuck shum man will are our guest.

plus. >> do you agree with this. if iran gets stronger and threat to israel? >> yes. >> when it comes to israel, the u.s. special envoy on iran is clearly worried about tehran's powerful new positioning. mike pompeo says there's nothing to see here. another remarkable disconnect within the trump administration. ahead -- >> well, we actually know which one's telling the truth. it's pretty easy. >> we'll be right back. e truth. it's pretty easy. >> we'll be right back. let's get down to business. the business of hard work... ...hustle... ...and high fives. modernized comfort inn's and suites have been refreshed because our business is you. get the lowest price guaranteed on all choice hotels when you book direct at choicehotels.com.

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it is just before the top of the hour. live look at washington this morning on a very sad day. a new gallup poll -- >> it's a sad day if you're just waking up, it's a sad day because our good friend elijah cummings passed away last night at the age of 68. >> 2:45 this morning to be exact. >> had he been sick for some time. weapon had gone to see the state

of the union together a few years ago. >> you always made a point of sitting together. >> yeah. and we -- we were going to go this time last january and he wasn't feeling well and said he may not have been up to it. had he been struggling for quite some time going back several years. but he continued despite his health ailments, he continued to fight for what he believed was right, to reveal what had been happening around washington for several years, to continue to be a steadfast champion of his constituents at home, and for all americans who actually think it matters that we find out the truth about what's happening not only in the white house, but across washington, d.c. and as the chairman of the house oversight committee, he did that

ably. we were very honored, mika, when he agreed to officiate our wedding and he's been a friend for 25 years. we worked together when i was chairman of the committee and he was the ranking member. we worked together closely. didn't listen to our leadership, i know that will come as a shock to people at msnbc in the front office, i didn't listen to my leadership then either. and elijah didn't listen to his. we fought hard, we got long term care for federal employees. and -- and we -- we built this friendship that continued. he was a good man and he was a great man. >> yeah. and that's many of the reasons why we came upon him for our ceremony is that he embodies grace and love and peace and love of country in everything that he does.

and he embodies everything that we aspire to be. and we will miss him. america is really -- there's a void today in washington and in terms of the direction of this country and the questions that were being asked, there was no better man for that message and for those questions than elijah cummings. we'll be revisiting some of his most incredible moments in his public life throughout our show. acts of grace and kindness being carried out in realtime because that's who he was. ambassador to the european union, god don sondland, will be answering to lawmakers today as part of the impeachment inquiry. joining us now of details of what sondland will say, national political reporter for nbc news josh letterman. josh. >> yeah, mika, gordon sondland going to be testifying in a few hours on the hill.

we are learning that lawmakers are planning to grill him on an incident that occurred in july where diplomacy over ukraine went off the rails. i want to walk you through what happened because it's pretty extraordinary. there was a meeting in the west wing where john bolton then the national security adviser was discussing with two visiting senior ukrainian officials whether to have a visit for the new ukrainian president zelensky with president trump. and bolton was noncommittal, not ready to commit to a meeting. gordon sondland, the ambassador to the european union intersected and said, as a matter of fact trump will meet with zelensky if you commit to opening an investigation. bolton then ends this meeting, but gordon sondland takes these two visiting ukrainian officials and escorts them down to the white house basement to a room just steps away from the situation room to have a private huddle with them about next steps. we're told by two people familiar with what happened that john bolton then sent fiona

hill, who until recently was the top europe official at the white house, said you got to go into this meeting and figure out what they're talking about. when fiona hill walked into this room down in the basement, she heard the ukrainians and ambassador sondland discussing bu burisma. that's the natural gas firm in ukraine with hunter biden, the vice president's son, is on the board. so new evidence that lawmakers will be scrutinizing that this whole corruption push by the president and ukraine was not just about corruption in general, it had a specific tie to investigating the president's political opponents. >> all right. nbc's josh letterman following that. thank you very much. and joining us now is the minority leader of the u.s. senate, democrat chuck schumer of new york. thank you so much for being on the show this morning. i think we should start with the tremendous loss that is being felt in washington and i think across the country. congressman elijah cummings

passing away at the age of 68 at 2:45 this morning. senator, your thoughts. >> well, i read the paper this morning first thing i saw was elijah's passing and it was like a gut punch. he was an amazing man. he was not just a great congressman, he was a great man. and he had a combination of being strong when he had to be and had to be quite often, but also being kind and decent and caring and honorable. i talked to elijah rather frequently, often we'd just talk about what's going on in the house and senate, sometimes we'd talk about maryland politics. but he was revered by maryland. no matter you were liberal or conservative, a democrat or republican, black or white, you went to elijah cummings for advice and for guidance. it's a huge, huge loss. so i pray for his family and you

prap for t pray for the country when people like elijah aren't with us any longer. >> senator, let's talk about the meeting yesterday. obviously the president under siege, a president alone. you had lindsey graham speaking out forcefully against his decision. even members of that -- in that meeting, republican members in that meeting bowing their head in shame regardless of what they say today, bowing their head in shame as you all were talking to the president. take us inside of there. what happened? >> well, the first thing i'd say is that the greatest insult that occurred in that room was simply the lack of policy on how to contain isis. there's a real danger to the american people. and a serious action has occurred, one of the most serious in a very long time. and when you go in there and the president has no policy, we

asked him repeatedly what is the policy here spend that didn't have one. i reminded the president that a small group of -- we were both from new york, i said. we better than anybody know the damage that terrorists can do. small group, far away, 7,000 miles away did such damage to our city. i know people who were lost, i'm sure he does too. and so what is the plan to prevent this from happening again? and there was virtually no plan. finally, finally after we pushed him they said, well, turkey and syria will guard the camps. who's going to guard these camps with high-level isis people in them and thousands of isis people in them? they said well turkey and syria. i asked secretary esper, do we have any intelligence that the turks and syrians will do even a decent job at doing that? because they have no interest. they don't have the same

interest at curbing isis that we do. and he said there was no evidence of that. it was appalling. that's the greatest insult to the american people. not the names that the president called people, but that he has no plan to deal with what could be a huge problem, not just in syria, but here in america. because isis can hurt us. >> senator, it's willie geist. i want to ask you about some of the nbc reporting we have out of that meeting which says that you presented to the president of the united states, comments that general mattis made on sunday on meet the press to chuck todd where you helped explain through mattis's voice what might happen and what is happening now if we pulled away from syria and let turkey go in. the report is that trump responded by saying, general mattis, the world's most overrated general. did he say that? >> yes, did he. he bragged that he was much better at this than mattis. and mattis is one of the most respected people here in washington. again, by all parties. i worked with him closely. and, you know, for the president

to berate a man who has served the country, who is respected as a human being and as a general and as a secretary of defense and not have a policy, i mean, what bothered mattis was the same thing i think that bothers so many of us. and that is just the incoherence, the fecklessness of this white house gets on its phone call with erdogan. and that's another thing here. he shows strength at all the wrong times and then when he needs to show strength he shows abject weakness. so when he got on the phone call with erdogan, he was weak as with could be. he should have told erdogan, you can't do this. america's not going to let you do this. instead, he green lights erdogan and then a few hours later sends this ranting rambling letter that shows toughness and to show you the effect erdogan's ignored the letter. >> so, senator, in fact there's

reporting just this morn out of the middle east that turkish government official when asked about the letter what was your response said, well, the letter's dated october 9th. at 4:00 that day we rolled into syria. that was our response to the letter. they effectively threw it in the garbage. >> but to insult general mattis, i'm sure general mattis would agree with what i'm saying here that the greatest insult is that there's no policy. no policy when our soldiers might be in harm's way. no policy to deal with the kurds who he knows fought shoulder to shoulder with our men and women over there. there are kurds who died so americans wouldn't. and maybe worst of all no policy towards isis which is a huge danger to america. that's the insult here. mattis wouldn't care what the president said about him, but he's care that this country suspect off track. >> okay, senator, with that in mind, everything you've spelled out this morning, everything that we've read of the accounts that happened yesterday in the cabinet room, let me ask you

about your republican colleagues. are they as aware of the danger of this presidential behavior, daily behavior, and the lack of policy, are they aware of the danger as much as you are and do they say anything about it? >> yes, our republican colleagues, i talked to a whole group of them on the floor of the senate last night, are really appalled by this and have actually shown an ability to rebut the president. something most of the time our republican colleagues mumble about the president and say he's doing this wrong, he's doing that wrong but are afraid to say anything. but in this case we have seen republicans speak out. but more importantly, the house passed a resolution direct -- excuse me, directly condemning the president's action. the majority of republicans, including leader mccarthy, one of trump's closest allies, scalise, cheney, all voted for it. but now there's a step that must be taken.

we have the same resolution in the senate. it is bipartisan, sponsored by senator menendez and young, one a democrat, one a republican, and leadership mcconnell has an obligation to put that on the floor of the senate. look, the only person who can reverse the damage that president trump has done is president trump. a joint resolution like this with overwhelming democratic and republican support, i would hope leader mcconnell would vote for it himself, i believe he would, is the only thing that can pressure the president to reverse course and come up with a policy that deals with so many troubling issues we've talked about. >> so is there any republican senator, mitch mcconnell, any of them, who would have the courage to go to the white house and confront the president not with something on the floor of the senate for a vote, confront the president with common sense about his ineptitude? is there anyone who would do

that? >> i would hope there would be a few. i would hope so. i'm not subject to what they say to him privately, but at least by their conversations on the floor of the senate and by this resolute -- the best thing leader mcconnell can do to show his resolve is this resolution. i believe that this would have more effect than any private conversation. >> senator, it's richard haass here. are there any thoughts about what the senate might do, the congress might do vis-a-vis turkey? is this say country on papers in nato ally we're pledged to defend yet in so many ways turkey is behaving as anything but an ally. do you see anything coming out of that other than some symbolic thanks are sanctions that would influence this relationship? >> i think we have to rethink our relationship with turkey, whether it's the nuclear weapons that we have at our air force base there, whether it's turkey buying the russian antiaircraft system against the strong administrations of our defense department and others.

turkey does not seem to be somebody who say country working in the spirit of nato and certainly erdogan doesn't seem like that. i think we're going to rethink -- we need to rethink our relationship with turkey. if nato stands for something, turkey shouldn't be doing what it's doing. >> senator, so much of the time of congress right now is occupied by the question of what's happening in turkey and also by the impeachment i quirery, rightly so on those. but there is other business of the country. there's gun safety, immigration. >> yes. yes. >> i know you all are working on something right now on climate change. >> well, let me just say this. this is the thousandth day of the trump presidency and if a phrase could sum it up it would be broken promises to working people. the president promised a massive infrastructure bill. we have no real concrete plan before us. the president said everyone's going to get much better healthcare, all he's doing is destroying healthcare. the president promised he would clean the swamp. this place is swampier than it's ever been with conflicts of

interest galore. and cabinet people chosen because they're billionaires even though they have very little experience. the tax bill he said would help the middle class, it's helped the wealthy, it's helped corporate america. you have pointed out on your show over and over again how much of it has gone to corporate buybacks which don't benefit working people a bit. gun control, he said he was for background checks, broken promises. he doesn't -- i hope the american people, particularly those who have not been supportive of or who have been supportive of trump will look at this, it's promise after promise. forget the tweeting. bad as that is. he doesn't keep his promises. in fact, he often does the opposite of them. so today we don't have that much power as a minority in the senate, the majority leader, mitch mcconnell has the power to put things on the floor. but once in a while do. it's called a cra, a

congressional review act. and we can undo a regulation this administration did. president obama wisely put some real restraints on these power plans coal burning power plants that spew so much carbon and other stuff in the air, so many of our lakes in the adirondacks are dead because of it. and we now can undo by a cra a congressional review act resolution, and it only needs 51 votes, to prevent the administration from undoing what the obama folks did to keep our air clean and deal with climate. and that will be on the floor today and i hope we'll get some republican votes. all we need is four. >> all right. senate minority leader chuck schumer, thank you so much for being on this morning. >> thank you. and, again, my condolences to joe, mika, and everybody. i know how close you were to this great man elijah cummings. >> thank you. a great man. >> thank you. to now a new gallup poll

that shows over half of americans support president trump's impeachment and removal from office. 52% say they now back impeachment and removal, up seven points since june. and 46% say they do not. down seven. support for trump's impeachment includes 6% of the republicans, 55% of independents, and 89% of democrats. the level of support for trump being impeached and removed is now well above where it was for bill clinton during his presidency and is also higher than all but the final poll for richard nixon before he resigned. support for clinton's impeachment and removal never got higher than 35%. richard nixon's hit 58% in august, 1974. >> mike barnicle, we may be getting numb to this like so many other things over the past three years of donald trump being in the white house.

but the numbers are really staggering. the nixon number that we showed was really a bit misleading because that was only the last month. for two years during the, as you know better than anybody, during the watergate hearings support for impeachment hovered around the 30s. americans did not want richard nixon impeached and removed in the has happened in a month's time where already over 50% in most polls, the fox news poll which the president falsely claims was sampled wrong, it wasn't. the post has a great explanation why those numbers were totally accurate. but the same here, mike, the same here. you have a gallup poll, 52% of americans want donald trump impeached and they want him removed. >> yeah. joe, the accelerated pace of those numbers, i mean, from a munn month ago to today are

shocking when you stop and think about it. and, michael steele, one of the things that chuck schumer was talking about, the majority, the republicans in the united states senate, you can probably clearly recall, i clearly recall it's an iconic photo of barely gold water, i believe hugh scott, then the senator from pennsylvania and i think a third republican united states senator outside the white house after they went down to tell richard nixon, you know, it's over, you've got. and you're just wondering. chuck schumer said there are republicans who are in question have grave questions about donald trump's behavior, i don't know, i try to keep fairly up with the news. i haven't heard of them really, have you? >> no, not publicly. privately is a different matter. privately you'll hear, and i know joe and mika have had this experience first hand in talking to these members who will, you know, rub their hands and bemoan

the situation and say something's got to be done. well, it starts with saying something publicly. it starts with taking that clarifying moment where you tell the america people i get it, that this is not us. and i think the polling now is beginning to reflect that more and more. this is the consolidation of thought that sort of encapsulates the last three years for the american people is coming home. and how the republicans respond to this is going to be important. you can only hold this line so long before the -- it's overrun by not just facts and reality and truth, but the american people who have had enough. and i think the president said, mike, you know, i'll begin to worry when the polling comes out that 50% of the american people are for impeachment. well, trump, you've got a prub problem because we're at 52% who not only want impeachment but want removal. so that now puts pressure on mitch mcconnell and the senate

that should the house move forward with an impeachment process that is deemed appropriate and legitimate by the american people and that comes to the senate, what do you do then? do you try to say, well, we'll just take it up in the senate meeting? well, we'll look at that time and set it aside? do you go forward with the trial? and do you do that in an upstanding and forthright way that the american people will trust the process? 'puts pressure on the quarters that i don't think republicans really want to have happen. but it's here and you've got to deal with it. >> so noah rothman, what are your insights on what's driving these numbers above 50%? pretty extraordinary. again, i would expect 50% for an impeachment inquiry, that's where this all began. but it seems over the past week or so that second part of the question, do you support impeachment and removal,

majority of americans do. what happened over the past few weeks? what's happened over the past month? >> yeah, i've got to disagree with my colleagues around the table here. i don't think those numbers put any pressure on republicans because to me they look very reflective of the president's job approval rating. almost identical, in fact, to the number of americans who have disapproved of the president and now want him impeached and removed, even on the partisan breakdown lines. that suggests this is a proxy right now for job approval and if you think that changes republican minds, i don't know why because it hasn't changed republican minds over the last three years. what's the pressure now is on democrats. democrats have to make the case for why this is different, why this is not like the mueller report, why this is not like emoluments, why it's a special and serious case. >> let me interrupt you quickly and ask you, let's go specific, because you're right about the house. let's talk about the senate specifically cory gardner in

california, that's a state, it's upside down. donald trump's not going to win that. mcsally in arizona, a lot of people believe that mcsally is facing the fight of her life, that arizona just may go against trump. you have jody ernst in iowa, donald trump upside down by 20 points, 15 maybe. up in maine, of course, susan collins in the feist her life. i fight of her life. i don't see how she survives that politically. those numbers going to be much higher there. you could say tom tilson in north carolina as well. when we're talking statewide where you see that drag on his support and he can't hide behind his small base, what impact does that have on those senators who are up for election in 2020 in these purple states? >> again, it's incumbent on democrats to make this case. right now they are presenting a united front because it's still primary season.

once weapon g once we get into the general there will be more pressure on hem to explain their position. but it's incumbent on democrats to make the case. >> what case? you've been shocked by -- what case, though? you've been shocked by what's happened. i don't understand. you're saying they have to make -- donald trump has made -- donald trump has made the case, he makes in front of banks of cameras. this isn't who met at a secret meeting in trump tower in june of 2016. he's asking our enemies to actually dig up dirt on domestic opponents. so what -- what case do they have to make? >> they have to -- >> -- specifically. >> they have to explain. there's no come to jesus moment happening for republicans. they have to explain why this is a very serious impeachable offense deeming removal from office, upending the 2020 election and they cannot do that while also at the same time saying we have to talk about prescription drug pricing too. it's important to talk about healthcare and the climate and all these other issues which are

very important, very critical to the democratic agenda, but nowhere near as critical as explaining why a constitutional remedy reserved for the most extraordinary circumstances is merited in this case. if they do make those two cases simultaneously they will make both of them badly and give republicans an excuse to say why this is not the earth ender shattering moment that democrats claim it is. >> it is. >> it is an impeachable offense and may be deemed worthy of removal from office. but republicans will not be making that case. democrats must. >> joe, you know, to your point, joe, which i completely agree with, in making the case to democrats who want to assume the presidency and win states in the midwest, all they would have to do is show yesterday's press availability as you stood alongside the president of italy and basically rewrote history, current and past, and basically said isis is okay, they're not a

big threat to us, they're 7,000 miles away. because the midwest, places like missouri, places like ohio, indiana, wisconsin, minnesota, those are the sons and daughters who are going to go fight the next war against isis. he made the case yesterday for his incompetence, his threat to the national security is a constant and present danger. >> but these were to separate issues. that's to the going tend to up in the articles of impeachment. >> there's only one issue for a voter. only one issue. >> it's an issue for a voter but not an issue for case of impeachment. and then if we're talking about voters then we're talking about the 2020 race which is what republicans want to make. the case republicans want to make is to say voters are going to take care of this next november, we don't have to do anything about this now. that makes their case for them. >> well, michael steele, i must say i disagree with my good friend noah on this front. i don't know that democrats have to make the case for impeachment when donald trump and members of his own administration who are

defying donald trump and going to the hill and testifying about donald trump and rudy giuliani and what donald trump's national security adviser called a, quote, drug deal, i think actually it is -- >> people understand. >> -- trump's own administration that's making the case for democrats and actually for any republicans, for any independents who actually care about their country and care about the fitness of the man in the oval office. >> yeah. i think that, you know, i have to push back a little bit on what noah was saying there. i do get in the main this idea that the democrats have to make the case. which is why i said what i said, that, you know, if they put together the credible -- a credible process that the american people can trust and believe that this is done beyond the politics, the typical politics that surround something

like this, then that puts the pressure on the senate. but to the point that noah made about republicans, they've already shown that they have no interest in pursuing this. they have no interest in the truth, justice, and the american way concept here. this is hunkering down around trump and protecting him. so to that extent, it doesn't matter what case the democrats make because republicans aren't going to give credibility or viability to it period. and so that's where these polls become important. that's where what the american people have to say about this become important. irrespective of the democrats, that's the real pressure point that the susan collins' of the world and the cory gardeners of the world and ultimately the mitch mcconnells of the world will have to confront. because the american people right now, whether you take gallup at its face or you want to backslide from it and say

it's not a real poll and we need to see the cross tabs and all, you can make whatever excuse you want. the trend line is the american people in a space right now that should worry the hell out of the trump administration and concern them about where this goes next. >> and a majority of americans want donald trump impeached and removed from office. but i do agree with you, it's the american people who will make the decision and it's the american people whoing talk wio pollsters and others and the american people who will move others. rich haas, before we came on the air you were hit with two pieces of breaking news. the terrible loss of our friend elijah cummings, but also right before we came on the show breaking news about brexit, prime minister boris johnson has been battling for the past several weeks and negotiating, locked in negotiations with eu commissioner president for the

past week or so. they have been a bit more hopeful because of the irish question, but there was still a lot of -- a lot of questions remaining and people saying time was running out. but, richard, it looks like a deal might have been struck. >> yeah, tentative deal was truck between the eu and the -- and boris johnson, the british government. it's still a deal, though, that has to be approved by every single country in the eu. it's still a deal that has to be approved by parliament, and the big sticking point is what it's been all along, which is northern ireland. and what has essentially happened to make a painfully and technical and long story short is the northern ireland and the part of it that's part of the united kingdom, that is going to be now under the deal the place where the customs is going to happen. so this way you don't have a division between northern ireland and the republic of ireland, that's unacceptable to

eu, that would be unsemiacceptable or inconsistent with the good friday agreement. but it's a big but, the principal partner politically of boris johnson, the democratic union has bartered essentially the big party, they don't like the deal. people in america forget formal name of the country, joe, is the united kingdom of great britt tab and northern ireland. they don't want there to be anything that smacks of a border between northern ireland and england or anything else. so this still has a way to go. but that said, the pound is soaring it's way up. it's the first real sign that we may get a deal before october 31, which is the deadline. >> all right. we've got much more ahead. we'll get noah's response toss michael spooel's analysis. as we go to break, we spoke to chuck schumer about how people viewed the ad-lib policy.

here's lindsey graham yesterday. >> i doll anythi anything i can him but will also become president trump's worst night player. i will not sit alongside the sidelines and watch a good ally like the kurds be slaughtered by turkey and watch iran move into syria and become another might mayor for israel. this is a defining moment for president trump. he needs to up his game. he needs to up his game. by oli. alexa: it's a masterstroke of heartache, brutality and redemption. the mist crept into the pivot hole beside her... you're late. david! what did you think of the book? it's a...masterstroke of... heartache...brutality... ...and redemption. you didn't read it, did you? i didn't...but i will. the lexus nx, modern utility for modern obstacles. lease the 2020 nx 300 for $349/month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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call, click, or visit a store today. so i viewed the situation on the turkish border with syria to be for the united states strategically brilliant. soldiers are out of there. so i think we're in a very strategically good position. i know that fake news doesn't make it look that way, but we have -- we've removed all of our, as we said, 50 soldiers but much less than 50 soldiers. they're now in a very safe location heading into an even safer location. and we will help negotiate.

>> listening to me, he's not listening to his commanders. he's not listening to his advisers. he is not -- he's making the biggest mistake of his presidency by assuming the kurds are better off today than they were yesterday. that is just unbelievable. i can imagine if obama said that what republicans would be saying now. some would have said with trump, th that is just unfair, dangerous and quite frankly is dishonorable for us to abandon the kurds. i would say that if obama did it. this is the most screwed up decision i've seen since i have been in congress. when the president said today syria, the invasion of turkey -- turkey's invasion of syria is of no consequence to us? do you know why we sanction turkey if that's true? >> joining us now, editor of commentary magazine and columnist of the "washington post" mike and white house correspondent yamiche.

before we go to our new guests, noah, you wanted to respond. we were discussing whether or not the polling will push republicans toward impeachment. take a shot at that time a response to what michael steele was saying. >> my friend michael is saying, you know, pick apart these cross tabs but it doesn't matter. it really does. the number that matters there is 6%. because that was the number of republicans who have moved in the direction and now favor impeachment and removal in that survey. that's what matters to republican lawmakers. their own constituents, those vulnerable republicans that are going up against voters in 2020 need to maintain 90, 95% such their base. if they lose it, they will not be re-elected. that's what they're thinking about. now, an impeachment case can be made by tying together i think this -- the situation in syria and the situation in ukraine because we don't -- >> totally agree. >> -- what has to do with the offers to white house meeting to

induce some support out of ukraine. we don't know whether or not this military aid was withheld for that reason. mick mulvaney said according to the "new york times" that this aid was held up to induce some cooperation of a corruption. this white house has used the word corruption as a you'euphem to investigate my political adversaries. if that case is made, republicans tether with a lot of -- but no one's going to make that case but democrats and democrats are taking the lead on this. >> well, i agree with that, but you actually just made the point that i think we both agree on in terms of what republicans will do. but this is beyond republicans. that's my point. when you're getting to 50 plus percent of the american people saying that they want something to happen, that includes republicans who aren't necessarily fans of donald trump. i think that's been the hole the party's put itself in, where it

only looks at one corner of the universe as opposed to the entire picture and realize where the movement is going. so i get that republicans are not going to sit back and move until we get the 70% of the republican base, you know, supporting donald trump as opposed to 90%. but you do that at your peril because the universe is bigger than just republicans and where they stand on donald trump. and that is what donald trump was talking about when he said when it gets over 50%, because he knows at that point that has to include republicans and independent voters that he's going to need in a whole lot of states come next year. >> all right. so let's talk about the here and now, yamiche, as the guys were talking about impeachment. right now the vice president of the united states, the secretary of state have landed in turkey where they're going to push president erdogan for a ceasefire to try to unwind some of the damage that the decision made by the president of the united states. but as they hit the ground, we learn from media reports out of that region that when president

erdogan received the letter that the white house made public from donald trump admonishing president erdogan, he threw it in the bin, to use their term, and then launched the operation that same day later in the afternoon, after he got the letter, launched the operation into northeast syria. >> willie, when i read that letter from president trump dated on october 9th to president erdogan, i at first thought it was a spoof because there was so many exclamation points. he's saying don't be a tough guy, history's going to judge you poorly. but it sound like president trump took a collection of tweets and put that in a letter. but when the white house confirmed that that letter was true, what i realized was that president trump was putting it out there because he realized that republicans are -- republicans who he needs to back him in the house as democrats for forge ahead with their impeachment inkwairy are having second thoughts about his decision making. he's make the case and use hings

political gut. the problem with his strategy, of course, even if he's right, is that republicans are going to have to have his back when it comes to this impeachment inquiry because official after official is coming on capitol hill and saying with no two cents about it that the state department was upending people's careers for political gain and they were removing ambassadors, in this indicates ambassador of ukraine, because rudy giuliani had misinformation. so tpublicans. and it's going to be in some ways really complex and really complicated to see how he wants the republicans and lindsey graham to back him on impeachment but then they are going to say, well, we could be your worst enemy. of course that vote, the 354 lawmakers who told president trump yesterday that they just think he's dead wrong on syria. that is something that has really made president trump feel anxious, that's why you saw him lashing out at that meeting

calling nancy pelosi a third grade politician. >> on that resolution by 2 to 1 republicans voted for the resolution to condemn president obama's moves into turkey and syria. john, this letter that the president made public yesterday fits a pattern, an odd pattern of documents and photographs the white house makes public because they think it makes them look good or solves a problem for them beginning with the sum rift call with the ukrainian president, the photograph the president himself tweeted out yesterday of nancy pelosi in command of that room. he thought that looked good for him. and then this letter which shows dated october 9th that he was being a tough guy, he probably thought he was, with president erdogan that same day erdogan went in to northeast syria. so not exactly a sign of respect from erdogan. >> so the president, you know, says the quiet thing outloud, right? so this letter is the ultimate version of that. it is what a letter from the president is intended to mean but ordinarily the letter from

the president is written and couched in a hire language than th higher language than this. don't be an idiot, history is going to judge you harshly, i'm going to destroy your economy. that's what he's supposed to glean from a letter that's more statesman like. you can say what trump is doing with the release of this letter, he's outraging and alarming all of us who believes the president should not conduct himself in this fashion, but to his people and as i often say here, there aren't enough of them to get him re-elected, but to his people it's like, he's just telling it like it is, right? and saying to nancy, insulting nancy pelosi in a meeting which is also something a president shouldn't do. he's got to negotiate with her, she's the speaker of the house. but saying you're a third rate, third grade politician, whatever it is that he said, there's a crew of people who are like, yeah, go at her, you know. give her the goods, you know.

and, but, to me, in the end the number that matters in those impeachment numbers from gallup isn't the republican number or the democratic number, which are tote alcongruent wi totally congruent in where he is with his support. but the independent number. if 56% of independents won't him removed from office, he's going to lose the election. forget whether he's impeached or not, which i don't think he will be. if that's a proxy, that's where the election's going to take place among uncommitted voters. he's got to win, you know, an outright majority of them in order to win re-election. and where this is trending for him is really terrible. and his comfort zone is to go at his base which will -- is already with him and not to convince people who aren't necessarily with him but might actually be willing to hear something about how, you know, oh, we did a really good thing in syria. what do they know? they're not paying attention to syria. >> well, that 55% that says he

wants impeachment now saying i'm not going to vote for the guy or vote for somebody else. >> that's what i mean. it's a proxy for whether or not they will actually bother even if they don't want to vote for the democrat, whether they will bother to go in and vote for him. >> so let's bring in a member of the foreign relations committee. senator, good to see you. just your reaction to what we saw from beginning to end from the white house from the president on this incredibly serious matter of what's happening with turkey and northeast syria. what can be done now? we are where we are based on the decision made almost unilaterally by the president of the united states. what can be done now? lindsey graham has been vocal about this, your republican colleague, to fix the situation if it can be fixed? >> i think it's very difficult for congress to step in and fix this situation. we're talking about the day-to-day management of american foreign policy. that is a power vested in the white house.

and i think right now what is most important is for republicans to focus their energies on pressuring this president and using the massive leverage that they have over him right now to change his mind or to at least act in a more responsible manner. he signaled yesterday that he has no interest for the time being in either reversing the decisions he's made inside syria or really trying to mount some coordinated pressure campaign on erdogan to act responsibly. there are some really important decisions erdogan has to make. is he going to move on the kurdish stiff kobane? is he going to start to reset will refugees into the safe zone? we have a lot to say about whether this turns into a humanitarian catastrophe beyond what it is today. i guess what i've warned my colleagues about, lindsey graham would love to pass a sanctions pill that likely won't be implemented by this president that would allow republicans to check a box. it will be likely there will be

time for sanctions. but right now it's more important for republicans to be putting pressure on the president to change his mind and manage this crisis appropriately. i've just been warning my colleagues here not to think that congress can fix this. republicans need to be using the leverage that they have over the president right now because of this pending impeachment inquiry to get him to act more responsibly and to get him to do real diplomacy with turkey. >> it may be be a rhetorical question at this point, but do you have any reason to believe that president trump would listen to any of those republicans? he heard lindsey graham's criticism yesterday and he said lindsey ought to focus on justice, dismissive of that criticism. he saw a vote 354 to 60 where a number, a majority of the republicans in the house caucus voted to condemn what the president is doing with regard to turkey and northeast syria and yet he did everything he did yesterday. we saw it out in the open. why would we believe that president trump would be moved at all, even by republicans? >> well, i don't think he be moved by republicans. if he doesn't ultimately -- if he doesn't ultimately believe that they are going to give the

impeachment inquiry a fair hearing. what i'm talking about when i speak of leverage is the fact that right now they are blindly protecting him from the consequences of his actions in ukraine. and if they signal to him that they nare no longer going to lie up based on partisanship and listen to the facts that the inquiry hearing present which are likely going to be impeachable, then they increase their leverage over him. i think they have the opportunity to try to move him to action here. again, i just don't want congress to think that unilateral sanctions without any partners around the world joining us is going to change erdogan's mind. erdogan is getting a 90% approval rating for what he's doing in northeast syria right now. he clearly doesn't fear the united states given what he did to that letter. i just want to -- i just want to make sure we understand that only the president of the united states, only donald trump can fix this because only he is

responsible for the massacre that's happening to the kurds and the fact that isis fighters are being let loose. >> senator, you questioned hard the top iran expert at state yesterday, brian hook. what stood out to you about his testimony? >> well, there was some news yesterday coming out of my questioning of brian hook. he's the top iran sanctions expert at the state department. first of ofal, you it was incredible to hear him say our counteriran policy isn't effective at all and temperature drew chuckles from republicans and democrats on the committee as we listened to him make that case because of course iran is strength end by the fact that bashar al assad who they support is now going to be able to gobble up more territory inside syria. but what he also said was that he had met with rudy giuliani two times to talk about giuliani's request that this

turkish/iranian gold trader be let off for his work to violate the iran sanctions law. again, that's additional evidence of how deeply intertwined rudy giuliani is into the workings of the state department. it's pretty incredible that the president was apparently trying to undermine u.s. sanctions against iran, one of his chief foreign policy calling cards because rudy giuliani asked. it's just more evidence that we have a shadow secretary of state right now, somebody that might have more power than mike pompeo has, that's the president's political lawyer rudy giuliani. >> yamiche. >> president trump is making the case that americans across the country don't really understand what's going non syria and as a result they're going to want troops to be withdrawn from syria. is there a plan to explain this in a bipartisan way to americans across the country? and does president trump have a point at all that some americans will not understand what's going on and as a result might side with his views?

>> so, listen, i don't think the president is wrong that americans generally are very skeptical of military action in the middle east. and what's so tragic here is that there was a way to withdraw our troops presence syria in a responsible way, right. there was absolutely an ability to work out a governance structure in northeast syria whereby the turks and the kurds could live in relative harmony there. he didn't even try to do that. he just announced the withdrawal without enough time for our troops to pack up, causing them to run for their lives. i think americans understand the basic concept of a double cross. it is not terribly hard to understand. you know, it takes only a sentence to tell them that we promised to protect the kurds, they fought isis on our behalf, and now we've turned our backs on them. the american public also understand the threat that isis poses to the united states. they've watched those videos of the beheadings. when you tell them that president trump took an action that allowed potentially

thousands of isis fighters to escape detainment and plot attacks against the united states, it is not something the american public supports. i don't actually think this is going to be very hard to explain to the american people as to why this particular decision puts american security at grave risk. >> senator murphy, i'm confused about one thing that you said, which is that republicans use their leverage on impeachment to force trump's hand to change policy on syria. impeachment is something that has happened twice in american history and bad presidential policy is something that happens every year in american history according to one party or another. what kind of -- i mean it is one thing to say that the president should be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. it is another to say that his party should come at him and say we're going to listen more readily to an impeachment argument because we hate your policy in syria. i hate his policy in syria, too, but that doesn't mean that he

should be impeached for it. >> that's right. >> so how do you separate those strands? >> yes, no, that's right. i'm not making the case a president should be impeached for bad policy. what i'm suggesting is that the republican party right now is engaged in blind partisan loyalty to this president. they are not giving the facts surrounding impeachment a fair hearing. now, i think that they should be patriots rather than partisans regardless of what is happening in syria. but i'm just pointing out that if they made that decision, if they decided to stand up today and say that we are going to give the inquiry is fair hearing in the republican caucus, it would likely have an impact on the decisions that the president makes in syria. i just don't think -- it is unrealistic to believe the two are connected. you are right. i'm not suggesting the president be impeached for policy decisions people disagree with, but right now republicans are not playing straight on ukraine. if they were, we should all

admit it may have an effect on other decisions the president makes. >> senator chris murphy, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks. before we go to break, yamish, i want to get your reflections on the passing of elijah cummings. >> representative cummings was a giant in congress, and he was someone who was personally nice to me. when i started out as a young reporter, a bit nervous about chaotic crowds on the hill, he would pull me aside and talk to me about details because he could tell i was a bit intimidated and a bit learning the roams pes of things. i'm going to miss that kindness and compassion. he was someone fighting for his district, standing up to president trump at times. for me it was the idea that he was someone that saw me and said, "this is someone i can help and let me pull you off to the side and tell you about policy and how this country works." that's the kind of kindness that lingers long after a person passes away. >> that was elijah, his humanity

and his love of country and, you're right, kindness always led him. as we go to break, here is a look at elijah's message earlier this year to michael cohen, a moment of grace. the message was to michael cohen and the american people. >> i know that it is painful going to prison. i know, i know it has to be painful being called a rat. let me explain. a lot of people don't know the significance of that, but i live in the inner city of baltimore. all right. when you call somebody a rat, that's one of the worst things you can call 'em because when they go to prison that means a snitch. i'm just saying. and so the president called you a rat. we're better than that. we really are. i'm hoping that all of us can get back to this democracy that we want and that we should be passing on to our children so

that they can do better than what we did. so you wonder whether people believe you. i don't know. i don't know whether they believe you. but the fact is that you have come, you have your head down, and this has to be one of the hardest things that you could do. let me tell you the picture that really, really pained me. you were leaving the prison -- you were leaving the courthouse, and i guess it is your daughter had braces or something on. man, that thing -- man, that thing hurt me. as a father of two daughters, it hurt me. i can imagine how it must feel for you, but i'm just saying to you, i want to first of all thank you. i know that this has been hard. i know that you face a lot.

i know that you are worried about your family, but this is a part of your destiny. hopefully this portion of your destiny will lead to a better -- a better, a better michael cohen, a better donald trump, a better united states of america and a better world. i mean that from the depths of my heart. when we are dancing with the angels, the question will be asked, in 2019 what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy intact? with my hepatitis c,

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my experience with the president is that he makes decisions and then absorbs data and facts, evaluates situations. if we need to adjust our policy to achieve our goals. >> president trump makes decisions and then absorbs data and falkts facts. good morning and welcome to "morning joe". it is thursday, october 17 county. along with joe, willie and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnacle. associate editor of commentary magazine and msnbc contributor noah rothman. the president on the council on foreign relations and author of the book, "a world in disarray," richard haas. and msnbc political analyst and former chairman of the republican national committee, michael steele. >> thank you. >> we begin this morning with really sad news. long-time maryland congressman elijah cummings passed away this morning at the age of 68.

the congressman's office says he died at johns hopkins hospital at around 2:45 this morning due to complications from longstanding health issues. cummings, who was born and raised in baltimore, maryland, where he still lived up to his death, represented maryland's seventh congressional district since 1996. he was known for his devotion to his hometown as well as his passion for civil rights. the son of former sharecroppers, he began his life of public service in maryland's house of delegates where he served for 14 years, becoming the state's first african american speaker pro tempore. he is survived by his wife and three children and we personally are heart broken this morning. >> we are heart broken. elijah was a dear friend. he was a trusted colleague, and

he was a fierce advocate for his constituents at home and for all of you americans who hunger for justice and truth in these troubled times. we were honored that elijah agreed to marry mika and me last year. it seemed just perfect, and he was just perfect. it was so great to have him, our dear friend there. but we are even more grateful for the public service that he so selflessly committed his life to, every day of his life. he will now be mourned and his remarkable life will be celebrated and his work, his work will be completed. that's the very least that this great country owes to elijah cummings during these dark days

and troubled times. willie, obviously he had not been doing well physically, but this still comes as a shock, and there's a great hole in our hearts because he's such a dear friend. but also in congress right now, he -- he has played a critical role in seeking the truth, trying to get to the bottom of all the facts, of the chaos that is swirling around the white house and swirling around washington as well as capitals across the world. boy, he will be missed. >> without question. what a stunner this morning. our condolences go out first to his family, to all of his colleagues. when i say colleagues, i mean democrats and republicans. he has gone out of his way, as you know very well, joe, to befriend republicans to get things done.

my condolences to you. i know what a close friend he was to both of you. but this was a man -- this is a loss for the country. this isn't about politics. yes, he was the chairman of the oversight committee, doing important work in this moment in our nation's history, but it is a loss for the country. a man whose parents were sharecroppers from south carolina, moved to baltimore for a better life for their family, watched their son grow up to become united states congressman and chairman of the oversight committee. michael steele, i know he was a friend of yours. obviously you are a maryland guy and you worked closely with elijah cummings, knew him well through the years. i was looking at old quotes from elijah cummings and during the michael cohen hearing, he reached out to cohen who looked distraught and wasn't doing well in the hearing and he said this. when we are dancing with the angels, the question will be asked, in 2019 what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy intact. i think he really saw that as

his role at this time. he sort of reached out and comfort comforted michael cohen but spoke to greater questions about where the country is and where the country is headed. >> he had his finger on a different pulse. a lot of times in politics people, you know, just -- just the top-line stuff, you know, who is up, who is down, who is winning, who is losing. the one thing i learned from my experience as former state chairman, republican state chairman of maryland, former lieutenant governor of maryland, i had the opportunity to work with and battle with elijah, and he always had his finger on the pulse of the people. he always understood what was needed, what was necessary. he cared so deeply about not just the city of baltimore but the state of hear lamaryland an country of the united states, the people of the united states, and he brought that passion to his work every day in the congress. i remember when i ran for the

u.s. senate in 2006, i was talking to him. you know, he had those moments, those chance moments were during the campaign you run into the, quote, open six. i looked at him and i said, look, you guys have to go easy on me. he looked at me and said, brother, we're always easy on you, it is about public service. that to me was elijah. he understood the partisan lines and he knew where they were drawn, but, again, he had always had his finger on the pulse of what people needed to get through the day, to make their dreams come true. we will miss him. maya and the family, our hearts go out to you. the great city of baltimore, you have lost a champion, but his spirit will remain true and you need to remain true to that spirit, just as willie noted his words of encouragement and service. >> yes. you know, mike, there is such partisanship in washington, d.c., but elijah really did --

he moved beyond that, he transcended that. when we worked together he was ranking member, i was chairman of a committee, and we were fighting for long-term health care for all federal employees. it seemed we were actually fighting with staff members on our own side who said, you can't make a deal with the other side, you can't do it, leadership will just absolutely pound you. this is not the time to do it. elijah, you could trust his word. in fact, i trusted him more than i trusted people on my own side and he trusted me more because we gave each other our words. we had each other's back, and we got it done when nobody thought it was going to get done. you know, as you know sadly over

the past 20 years or so that didn't happen so much in washington, d.c. you always had to watch your back. i never did because this guy was more than a close friend. he was a man of his word. >> joe, willie and i were fortunate in that we got to know him because of your friendship with him, because of mika's friendship with him. we got to know him in a way we don't get to know a lot of members of congress. one of the things that resonates about elijah cummings in a world, washington, d.c., filled every day with daily bouts of horrific polarization that verges on sounding like hate when you look at it from the outside, elijah cummings stood every day for fairness. he stood every day for equity. he stood every day for moving the ball forward. not just for his city,

baltimore, and people look at congressmen and they say, oh, you know, senators, oh, ed markey from massachusetts or chuck schumer from new york, but elijah cummings wasn't from baltimore. he was of baltimore. he went home i think nearly every night. he lived with the people that he represented, fought for the people and the great city that he represented, that has been through so much. but during the course of his days in washington he stood for something and represented something that is unique, fairness and a measured approach to things. he fought fiercely for the things he believed in, that he felt would improve this country on a daily basis. i mean look at his relationship with mark meadows and trey gowdy during the hearings on hillary clinton. he was fair. he fought for fairness even when he was minority chair, when he was majority chair, he was the same. that's, i think, a voice that will be astoundingly missed.

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snoufr ♪ last hour we spoke with senate minority leader chuck schumer on the heels of his contentious meeting with president trump at the white house. take a look. >> senator, let's talk about the meeting yesterday. obviously the president under siege, a president alone. you had lindsey graham speaking out forcefully against his decision.

even members in that meeting, republican members in that meeting bowing their head in shame. regardless of what they say today, bowing their head in shame as you all were talking to the president. take us inside of there. what happened? >> well, the first thing i would say is that the greatest insult that occurred in that room was simply the lack of policy on how to contain isis. there's a real danger to the american people and a serious action has occurred, one of the most serious in a very long time. when you go in there and the president has no policy, we asked him repeatedly, what is the policy here. he didn't have one. i reminded the president that a small group of -- we were both from new york, i said. we better than anybody know the damage that terrorists can do, small group, far away, 7,000 miles away did such damage to

our city. i know people who are lost. i'm sure he does, too. so what is the plan to prevent this from happening again, and there was virtually no plan. finally, finally after we pushed them they said, well, turkey and syria will guard the camps. who is going to guard these camps with high-level isis people in them and thousands of isis people in them? they said, well, turkey and syria. i asked secretary esper do we have any intelligence that the turks and syrians will do even a decent job at doing that? because they have no interest. they don't have the same interest at curbing isis that we do. they said there was no evidence of that. it was appalling. that's the greatest insult to the american people. not the names that the president called people, but that he has no plan to deal with what could be a huge problem, not just in syria but here in america,

because icy can husis can hurt >> senator, it is willie geist. i want to ask you about some of the nbc reporting we have out of the meeting that says you presented to the president of the united states comments that general mattis made on sunday on "meet the press" to chuck sttod where you helped explain through mattis's voice about what may happen if we let turkey go in. there's a report that he said, general mattis, the world's most overrated general. did he say that? >> yes, he did. he bragged he is better than mattis, and mats advertise is one of the most respected people in congress, again by all parties. i worked with him closely. for the president to berate a man who has served the country, who is respected as a human being and as a general and as a secretary of defense and not have a policy, i mean what bothered mattis was the same thing i think that bothers so many of us. that is just the incoherence,

the fecklessness of this white house, gets on its phone call that's another thing here. he shows strength at all the wrong times, and then when he needs to show strength he shows ab adjudicat abject weakness. when he got on the phone call with erdogan, he was weak as could be. he should have told him, you can't do this, america is not going to let you do this. he green lighted erdogan and then a few hours later sent this rambling letter. and to show you the effect, erdogan has ignored the letter. >> fact, there's reporting this morning out of the middle east a turkish government official when asked about the letter, what is your response? he said, the letter is dated october 9th. at 4:00 that day we rolled into syria. that was our response to the letter. effectively they threw it in the garbage. >> but to insult general mattis -- again, i'm sure general mattis would agree with

what i say here, that the greatest insult is that there's no policy, no policy when our soldiers might be in harm's way, no policy to deal with the kurds who he knows fought shoulder-to-shoulder with our men and women over there. there are kurds who died so americans wouldn't. maybe worst of all, no policy towards isis which is a huge danger to america. that's the insult here. mattis wouldn't care what the president said about him, but he would care that this country is off track. coming up, our political panel is standing by. jim ma seen owe, lauren leader and tim miller join the conversation straight ahead. "morning joe" is back in a moment. ahead. "morning joe" is back in a moment fact is, every insurance company hopes you drive safely. but allstate actually helps you drive safely...

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every player hates isis, everybody we are talking about, syria more than us. russia, more than us. they've done a big number on russia. we're over there fighting isis, but they're over there fighting isis, too. they can handle it and they should handle it. we can fight our own battles on our own territories. we have them captured. the united states captured them. some were released just for effect, to make us look a little bit like, oh, gee, we got to get right back in there.

>> i think it is very hard to understand why it is the vice president and secretary of state and others are going to talk with erdogan in turkey. look, the troops have already been pulled out. if you will, it is like the farmer who lost all of his horses and goes to now shut the barn door. the troops have been pulled out. turkey is devastating our allies, the kurds. it is too late for this kind of conversation. >> welcome back to "morning joe". michael steele is still with us and joining us now, host of msnbc "politics nation" and president of the national action network, reverend al sharpton. ceo of the masino group, jim masino joins us. he ran president obama's 2012 reelection campaign. contributor to conservative web suit "the bulwark. y tim miller. he argues where the notion bad

but not impeachable is wrong. author lauren leader, co-founder and ceo of all in together, a non-partisan women's civic and political organization. her latest op-ed is entitled "anti-trump business women, women are nervous about warren and the democratic debate didn't help." great headline. >> that is a great tease to the article. i want to start, rev, obviously we are mourning the loss of our good friend, your good friend, elijah cummings. what do you remember about elijah this morning? >> i remember most that elijah cummings never stopped being elijah cummings, who he was as a regular guy. lived in the same house. dealt with the people in the neighborhood the same way. when i first met him maybe 20 years ago, he was in the state legislature, worked with our national action network chapter there, larry young, and when he

went on to congress, the same guy. i will never forget a few years ago when they were having the oversight committee hearings on the lead poisoning of waters in flint, michigan, the oversight committee had the governor of michigan come before them. at that point the republicans were in charge. the republican chairman didn't want some of us in the room and elijah got up and walked out and escorted us in. no matter whether he was high or low, he never stopped being elijah. he was a king on a throne. throne didn't define him. that's what we will always remember. a couple of months ago, let's not forget, joe, that the president castigated elijah cummings. some of us went in -- michael steele was among us -- to baltimore on a home buyer's forum and defended elijah cummings. that's when the president started this tirade on twitter against me for going into baltimore and all of a sudden we were con men and all of that,

but it was over elijah cummings and his denigrating of elijah cummings. he ought to apologize to the family today as this nation mourns a true statesman, elijah cummings. i think that he deserves all of the praise and credit that we can muster today. >> i totally agree. >> absolutely. >> what a great loss, of course, for all of those who knew and loved him, but also a great loss for congress. he was an institution. and the country he served for so many years. tim, i love your piece. i love what it says because at the beginning of this ukraine affair what did we hear? oh, there's no quid pro quo. now what we're hearing is because, you know, bolton and others are very suspicious about this, quote, drug deal, now it is obvious there was a quid pro quo. the argument is, okay, so there was a quid pro quo, it was terrible but it is not impeachable. that doesn't hold water, does it? >> it doesn't. it is the kind of republican senators that you're going to

need if trump is going to be removed from the presidency after he's inevitably impeached by the house. the lamar alexander's, the richard bures. i saw this morning that langford said this. it is not defendable but we should let the voters decide. the impeachable act was trying to interfere with the next election. it is like trying to say lance armstrong was doping, but let's let him ride the tour and if he wins it is all cool. you will let the next election decide the issue with which trump was trying to impact. so a lot of these guys are getting backed into that corner. in some ways i think that's why you're going the see them move more to the absolutely absurd marco rubio defense which is, oh, he was just joking, right, because that's honestly the only way to get out of the corner on this. >> well, of course marco said he was just joking and a couple of days later the president was asked outside of the white house

if he was joking and in effect he said, no, if china wants to do it they should do it. also that brings up this china issue though, just underlines what you just said, tim, because it is not about 2016. it is not about what is happening in the past. it is what is happening in the future. it is what is going to happen next year, and this president, despite being called out on ukraine, this president after being called out on ukraine calls china, our greatest rival on the globe, to interfere in the election in 2020 while they're trying to broker a deal on trade. >> that's the key point. you know, this is an obvious chip in the trade war that's going on with china and now, you know, as biden said in the debate the other night it is the third time he has called on a foreign government to sfwinterf in our election. he knows what he is doing. the power of the presidency, how can you project out? once you have acknowledged he tried to interfere in the

election as senator alexander did, how can you say let's keep him in the presidency with all of the powers in his disposal to put his finger on the scales and tip the scales in the next election? the argument that we can't overturn the will of the voters because it overwhelms the integrity of our election, keeping him in overwhelms the integrity of our election. >> some people watching the debate the other night, some have concerns about joe biden. boy, he looks a little slow, lost a little of his fastball. others have concerns as others write about elizabeth warren, can she stand in there and beat donald trump. how do you assess the state of the democratic field and strongest candidate to go up against trump. >> first, let's talk about trump. we are 111 days before iowa and democrats are going back and forth.

but the most interesting thing i saw yesterday was 52% of the people think we should impeach this guy and we're ten days into this impeachment. these guys are proceeds, more pe will be testifying and we will learn more bad behavior. as tim was talking about, if you get to 55%, 60% of the country, you start to say you will see republicans move all over the place. if you are a swing republican like susan collins, like cory gardner in these really tough districts, you start -- or states, you start to say, i can't run with this president. this guy is a disaster. then mitch mcconnell has tough decisions to make. on the other hand, let's talk about the democrats for a second. i think the impeachment stuff has changed our primary in a really interesting way. about a month ago we were all talking about elizabeth warren, all the time, she had all of the momentum coming into this. now we're talking about impeachment every day. the democrats have been talked a little bit less about themselves. i thought the debate the other night did nothing to move the

debate -- the process forward. we're 111 days before iowa. you know, what you are going to see are two things. the front-runners get even bigger, the oxygen is going to come out of the room for the lesser candidates who don't have enough money and aren't going to get the kind of media attention, and we're going to be down to four or five real candidates who have a shot at this. those people are just starting to pay attention. 40% of democrats haven't decided who they're for and are going to start looking at this, and the debates aren't going to be the moments that really move this campaign. >> so speaking of elizabeth warren, lauren leader, tell me about the business community, elizabeth warren and why the debate didn't help. >> well, look, warren has relished her position as this, you know, anti- -- anti-greed, anti-corporate malfeasance crusader, and that's part of what has propelled her career and created the reputation she has today. but there's a flip side to that.

that is the industries she most often attacks, financial services, the insurance industry, the farm industry, industries that employ millions and millions of people, and many of the jobs in the industry are not millionaire jobs. a lot of the jobs are administrative assistants, customer service people, even manufacturing people and people in the farming industry. what i have heard from women leaders across the country is a growing concern in an environment where, i know, obviously women candidates, especially after '16, a lot of questions about whether or not they can get elected. anything that drives up her negatives particularly could be a huge liability for her if she becomes the nominee. the issue is if you start to alienate large groups of people -- and in this case it is really sort of corporate america -- it can be a real problem for her. you know, there's evidence that americans actually aren't so -- don't have such negative feelings towards corporate america as they used to. in fact, in a survey which i quote in the piece has shown americans actually have higher

confidence actually in the business community these days than they do in government. business has been solving all kinds of problems that government hasn't, from family leave for women to lgbt rights to environmental stewardship and they've been able to step forward. the confidence and trust in the corporate world is higher than it is in government. i just question whether continually lumping everyone in these industries in together is a great strategy for her long term. >> well, and, of course, add to that the fact that 165 million or so americans get their health care -- >> for sure. >> -- from their employers. it is complicated to say the least for democrats right now trying to figure out which way the party is going to go. but, rev, before i ask you the question i'm going to put a caveat this is the same warning that everybody gave republicans about donald trump. if you nominate him, you are dead. lindsey graham himself said, if

we nominate donald trump the republican party will be destroyed. lindsey is right but a little early on that prediction. it is going to come but it is going to come in a few years perhaps. but elizabeth warren, she is doing well nationally. she is doing well in iowa. she is doing well in new hampshire. but i just wonder, are there concerns. are you hearing the same concerns? i'm hearing from democrats of all ideological stripes, they're concerned about elizabeth warren now being the front-runner and the party just getting throttled in those upper midwest industrial states. >> you're hearing those concerns, but the question becomes whether those concerns are well-founded. i was at the debate night before last and i have been at every one of the debates. i was very curious to see if elizabeth warren could take incoming fire. i remember when i was a kid,

muhammad ali told me once, sharpton, you don't judge a champion by how well he throws a punch but by how well they can take one. she took solid punches the other night. there are some things she may have to work on but she was not rattled. i think she went straight ahead. i think that bernie sanders and others have come out to the left of her, which has mainstreamed her. i wouldn't count her out in the midwest yet. in fact, she is from oklahoma. i mean you have to really look at this in a way that -- i remember people said people wouldn't vote for barack obama. >> sure. >> he was too left, he was too black, then he wasn't black enough. so i've heard all of these kind of things and saw over time things worth out. i think she has the chops to work a lot of things out. >> yes, i agree. >> but i also think you can't count joe biden out because joe biden showed he can stay until the late rounds, and even if he has to win on points, a win is a win. >> yeah, look, i agree with the rev when it comes to elizabeth warren showing she was teflon last night. i think the one thing she has

that is similar to what i experienced trying to debate donald trump, what jeb experienced trying to debate donald trump in 2016 is that the punches didn't land on him. a lot of people were coming for him but voters didn't care. i think you saw that last night with warren. the question goes that among the group of voters that went for donald trump, the ones that didn't show up because they didn't like hillary, which one does warren help with. that's an open question for me. i'm not sure where she helps the democrats electability against trump versus biden or kamala harris. >> i had a different response to the debate the other night because i think it was first time she struggled as a front-runner. the moment that i thought -- her brand is it is all about honesty, i'm taking on the tough fights and she refused to answer on health care and taxes.

she ee kwquivocated and didn't to answer the questions on health care and taxes. she is starting to believe she will be the democratic nominee for president and she didn't want to take a position on taxes because she knew trump would hit her hard in the general election. that's a moment where she has real vulnerabilities going forward. >> there's an existential question at the center of all of this which is does the democratic party win in 2020 as the big tent or by centering on the left-leaning progressive voters who were a force in 2018. warren hit sort of the nerve in the middle of that, right, which is she is energizing and mobilizing progressives. she is energizing and mobilizing middle american voters who really feel she is speaking to them. that question of can she bring everyone in i think is at the heart of what the anxiety is. >> michael. >> i think a lot of that is going to revolve around a point tim was just making, and that is the substance of her debate, her

plan. she's exhausted the country, unlike what we saw in 2016 which was not about a series of plans or initiatives or policies that would be pushed forward beyond, i'm going to build a wall, she has kind of laid out specifics in terms of her plan. so how that's going to be received in those midwestern industrial states, how that's going to be received among black voters, for example, all of these things are going to play into whether or not she holds that front-runner status long enough to knock out bernie, knock out biden, and solidify her position. i think that's still a real big question, particularly to lauren's point when she can't answer the fundamental question, does your plan increase my taxes as a middle income earner. until she comes forward with an answer, given it is the same plan that bernie sanders is doing and he's already said it will, that's going to be a real sticking point for her to lock

in that front-runner status long term. >> jim, you hear anecdotally, i don't know if elizabeth warren can stand on the stage and beat donald trump, that seems to be some projection from people. if you look at polling, take it for what it is worth, she wins the head-to-head matchups in the same way joe biden does and in some cases by the same margins he does. >> democrats have a little ptsd and they're fighting the last battle and we ought to let the primary go through and figure out who is toughest. we are about to go through a long primary that could go all the way to the convention and by the end we will have a nominee strong enough to stand up to donald trump. >> sure. >> but, willie, don't underestimate the implosion of donald trump because a lot of what is going to happen is donald trump is going to help beat himself. >> yes. >> an old preacher once told me, if you see a man at the edge of a cliff about to go over don't get close because you will turn a suicide into a homicide. let him finish going over the cliff. let us come with the best

candidate. >> so, jim masino, let's talk -- we talked about elizabeth a lot. let's talk about joe biden for a moment here. it seems to me that the unspoken truth about this came pain is that joe biden has underperformed in three debates, four debates now. he had a terrible fundraising hall. he doesn't have a lot of cash on hand. he doesn't have a lot of grassroot support. he has $9 million in the bank right now. how does that guy, if he's already having fundraising problems, if he had a big lead and now he's following elizabeth warren, how does that ark arc go back up in time for new hampshire. >> look, he has the two most things you want in the democratic primary. if he can hold those two coalitions he will be there all the way through this thing.

but i agree with you. i think the vice president has yet to have a good debate. the weird thing is, i don't know if you saw him yesterday in his press conference, and he was as good as i have seen him in a very long time. where is that guy? >> but, jim, that happens after every debate. he will have a bad debate performance and then the next day you will have a fiery speech. >> right. >> but he never can bring it to the debate. yes, these democratic debates may not make a big difference, but, my god, they are so defining when he is going up against donald trump if he's the one going up against donald trump, right? >> and the weird thing is the single best debate performance i have seen was in 2012 in the first debate where he just cleaned paul ryan's clock after obama had blown the first debate so badly. biden did such an incredible job. where is that joe biden? i think to your campaign question though, joe, his spending has got to come down. i mean he has less cash on hand than the arizona democratic

senate nominee mark kelly. >> oh, lord. >> that is a scary moment as you go in to an iowa race where he almost has to win or come in very close second, and now he has way less money than all of the other folks. so i predict a couple of things. i think you will see a super pac for joe biden. even though he said he wouldn't, i think they're going to have to in the next week or so. i think he's going to have to shake things up a little bit to see if he can get back to a place where it is just him talking to voters because that's where he is the best. >> younger voters will be a challenge for him. they really are. younger black voters are, too. there are movements online. younger black voters saying they're going to talk to parent about why they need to not support biden when he doesn't speak to them. >> right. >> if we learned one thing from the 2018 mid terms it is that younger people of color, millennials, women will be everything in the 2020 race. if they stay home because they're not excited or don't

feel the candidate shimon peress peress -- speaks to them -- >> donald trump is going to make the turnout not a problem. >> oh, yes. we will turn out. >> jim masino, i'm not -- >> if donald trump is on the ballot, we will turn out, no doubt about it. >> the highest presidential turnout in 108 years, we're coming. >> we've heard that before in 2016. >> we've been in that room. >> thank you very, very much, all of you for being on. >> thank you, guys. coming up, joe's powerful rebuttal to the president's hateful attacks over the summer against congressman elijah cummings who we learned passed away this morning. that is next on "morning joe". o.

in our last block rev al referenced president trump's demeaning, racist tweets aimed at baltimore and congressman elijah cummings, who we learned passed away today at the age of 68. back in july we would not allow for trump's attacks to stand, and in a powerful 10-minute

monologue joe described how the maryland democrat was far braver than trump ever was or ever will be. >> donald trump's message to elijah cummings to spend more time in baltimore, a proud city that he calls rat and rodent infested, is not only racist but it is also disrespectful to a city that is, of course, the birthplace of our national anthem. of course that's a national anthem that our bigoted president is also using as a wedge issue to denigrate black athletes and to further divide america. donald trump's clumsy attempt to stir racial divisions and appeal to his most bigoted supporters not only betrays the president's ignorance about the country that he is supposed to serve, it also shows how little donald knows about my friend elijah.

donald, donald, donald, you should know that unlike almost every other member of congress elijah goes home to his district every single night. he lives with the community that he serves. he's there for the good and he's there for the bad. there's more good than ever care to learn or know about. things like empowering minority-owned businesses, working with faith-based leaders, inner city educators and helping seniors in need, we have seen it and heard about it firsthand. but elijah cummings has also been there through the bad times and he's been braver than you, donald, braver than most. like in may of 2008 when cummings pulled up to a gas station where a botched robbery had just left a man repeatedly stabbed as he was taking his pregnant wife to the hospital to give birth. instead of fleeing danger,

congressman cummings got down and aided that victim in the last minutes of his life. elijah said he held the man's head in his arms and he tried to keep his from sitting up to stop the bleeding. as the man was struggling to check on his wife and making sure his unborn son was okay, cummings later said it was a struggle for life so intense that i felt my own breath taken away. elijah cummings prayed over the man until the ambulances arrived and remembered how the man who did not speak english well squeezed his hands when he recognized the word "jesus." that story gives us just a glimpse of this man, elijah cummings, and who he is. he has personally felt the impact of gun violence not only in his city but also in his family when he lost his nephew

to a random shooting while away at college in 2011. but that tragedy, like other tragedies, only served to strengthen this great man's resolve. when baltimore erupted in violence over theresolve. when bolt more erupted in violence, it was elijah cummings who took to the streets be. >> wendy: a blow horn standing strong. he doesn't run away from service. he runs toward it. he provides americans a pronile courage and a time when that political trait is so sorely lacking in washington dc. donald, elijah cummings has served honorably long before he received his first vote, but unlike the pampered son of privilege whose rich father bought him a diagnosis of bone

spurs so he could play golf and football and chase women while other young men went to vietnam. with you, we're running away, like you did from the draft board. if you want to know what he does for his district, he frightens people who are frightened of you. >> they say i'm scared, and i have not, i have never, in my total of 37 years in public service heard a subsequeconstit they were scared of their leader.

he said he continues to work in his city -- >> when i hear those things, it takes me back, like i said. i can still remember bleeding from my forehead when adults were throwing bottles and were saying go home [ bleep ]. and again, there is -- he, the president has to set the tone, he needs to be a role model. but it is impossible to ask donald trump to be a role model at this point. maybe we should ask republicans, but they're silent. they're carrying trump's banner. how about mick mulvaney. if i had crime in my district, if i had homelessness my direct, and i spent all of my time in washington dc chasing down this

mueller investigation, this bizarre impeachment crusade, i would be fired and i think the president has the right to raise that. >> infested, it sounds like roadroa rodents. what an ignorant thing thing mick mulvaney just said. do you go home every night, mick? i know elijah does. we can talk about another republican in the sprat branch of government or one that says he considers elijah to be one of his best friends, mark meadows who serves with him in congress. mark remember just a few months

ago when a member on his side of the aisle described what you said was racist. >> my nieces and nephews are of color. >> of all of the people on this committee, i have said it and got in trouble for it. you're one of my best friends. i know that shocks a lot of people. >> like wise, mr. chairman. and i can see and feel your pain. >> so, mark, what do you say about elijah cummings? what do you say now that he has been attacked as a racist?

mark we have a personal relationship you and i, i enjoy talking to you. are you going to do the right thing and defend elijah like elijah defended you against a shocking charge? i hope you will. you will be remembered by what you do right now more than bill you fight more. by the way, a message to the other republicans dammed by your own silence, please, please, don't write your books about who won the war after donald trump leaves down, speak up now, donald trump is going to bring you done. people think he will be president forever, but he's not, he's going home tomar-a-lago.

and because of what he did this past weekend he'll be going on january 20th, 2021. think back to 2018. everybody in the press said oh my god, this racism is going to defeat the democrats, oh, remember what the president did? he ran your party straight on going 100 miles per hour into a wall. remember his racist messages? think about it. it's not that saturday, remember the caravan. remember max seen waine. all of that resulted in a historic defeat for the republican party. they lost by a larger vote

margin. sorry, you lost by a larger vote margin than any party in the history of our constitutional republican. trump's already proven that he doesn't need to resign in disgrace to take the party down with him. trump remains held bent on dividing americans and he will continue to tear the country apart until enough people stand up and say enough and risk their political careers by simply doing the right thing. just two, three, four republicans in the senate calling out racism. that's enough. elijah cummings has that courage. donald trump doesn't. whose side are you on? your home at a great price,

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chairman of the oversight committee, elijah coupummingscu passed away last night. he had been leading one of the three committees at the forefront of the impeachment inquiry. jeff, let's start with you, elijah cummings, what did he mean to washington? >> reporter: yeah, look, he was a massive force. he was widely respected by democrats and republicans. garrett and i interacted with him all of the time. and there was always a kindness and a conviction that came through. i think that has to do in large part because he was born the