Bowling for Columbine : MSNBCW : October 19, 2019 6:00pm-9:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive

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tickets monday at 10:00 a.m. central. get tickets for chicago the same place you got them for la. msnbc.com/withpodtour. that does it for "all in." this is an msnbc special presentation. >> hello, i'm ari melber. i'm joining you for something important. each time there is a mass shooting in the united states, there are heartbreaking images of innocent people killed or injured and families and communities who will never be the same. schools, synagogues, churches, nightclubs. conce concerts, shopping centers. we all know by now, it feels like no place is spared. then we face the questions. we go through the ritual, why does this happen? why wasn't something done after the last one, or the one before that? this debate over gun safety and gun control in our country is highly charged. for many, the solutions seem beyond out of reach at this point. after the columbine high school shooting in 1999 that left 12

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students and a teacher dead, and many others seriously wounded, filmmaker michael moore made the academy award-winning film "bowling for columbine" about america's attachment to firearms and the seemingly relentless march of gun violence in our country. tonight, wherever you come down on this gun debate, you may find this film's graphic images disturbing. you may find at times it raises more questions than it answers. but this is a very special presentation of michael moore's film. it is not produced by msnbc. it is part of this special presentation. michael joins me before and after this film, and he is here right now. michael moore, thank you for doing this. >> thank you very much for having me on tonight and for letting me share my film with the american public. >> why do you see this as relevant now? what people are about to see in a moment or two, why did you choose to present some of the violence and the images the way

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you did? >> this is a very, very difficult issue to grapple with. there are over 300 million guns in people's homes in this country. no other nation on earth has the level of gun violence that we have. i've wanted to ask the question why. why us? we're good people. this is a good country. why do we kill so many of our own? why do we have such a high suicide rate? why -- you know, the day that the columbine shooting happened, that afternoon, my crew and i decided, we have to do something about this. we have to make a documentary about this. we have to make sure that there is not another -- i remember saying this that day -- that there is never another school shooting. sadly, here we are, some, what, 17 years later, and there was more than one columbine. there have been, well, you know, a mass shooting is defined as four people are shot in the

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shooting. there's an average now of one a day. of the school shootings, churches, synagogues, shopping malls, every months, there is one of those, sometimes more than once a month. >> this film is one that many activists and many people ifected ifect affected by this issue urged policymakers and others to watch. is that part of what you set out to do? >> yes. >> did you want to shock people? >> no. it's shocking enough when your child comes home at 7 years old and said that he or she participated in an active shooter drill in school. they had to either run for their lives or hide and have the fear in them at 7 years old that they could die in the next ten seconds. that's the -- that's the common denominator amongst -- are all americans, regardless of what your politics are. i don't think any of us want to live in that society. we want to change that society. yes, i made this in the hopes of change. you mentioned the -- some of the graphic or shocking images that

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people will see in the film. i put them in there because i think it is important not to look away. we need to face this down as americans. yes, it is hard to watch, but i remember as a child, when the vietnam war was going on, watchi watching nbc news. a captain or colonel pulled a prisoner of war in the street. on nbc, puts a gun to his head and blows it, literally, his brains come out the other side. i'm a child watching this. now, in the wars since vietnam, they don't show that on the evening news. i'll tell you this, seeing that, seeing that little girl in vietnam, burning the skin off her body, running down the road, those images are powerful, and they played a role in ending that war. >> right. you're talking about the link between the storytelling and what we do about it as a

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society. >> yes. >> michael, what we're going to do is the screening. you'll stick around, and we'll talk more on the policy and politics afterwards. we turn now to a special screening of "bowling for columbine." michael moore and i will return at the end of the film. ♪

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the national rifle association produced a film which you are sure to find of great interest. let's look at it. >> it was the morning of april 20th, 1999. it was pretty much like any other morning in america. the farmer did his chores. the milk man made his deliveries. the president bombed another country whose name we couldn't pronounce. out in fargo, north dakota, williams went on his morning walk. back in michigan, mrs. hughes welcomed her students for another day of school. out in the little town in colorado, two boys went bowling at 6:00 in the morning. yes, it was a typical day in the united states of america.

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>> can i help you? >> i'm here to open up an account. >> what type of account would you like? >> i want the account where i can get the free gun. >> okay. >> i spotted an ad in the local michigan paper that said if you opened an account at north country bank, the bank would give you a gun. >> you do cd, and we'll hand you a gun. we have a brochure you can look at. once we do the background check and everything, it's yours to go. >> right. okay. all right. that's the account i'd like to open. >> we have a vault which at all times we keep at least 500 fear arms. >> 500 of these you have in your vault? >> in our vault. >> wow. >> we have to do a background check. >> at the bank here? >> at the bank. we are a licensed firearm dealer. >> you are? what do i put for race? white or caucasian or -- >> caucasian. >> i knew you were going to make me spell it. caucasian. is that right? >> yes. >> i don't think that is the

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part you need to be worried about. >> have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution? what does that mean, adjudicated mentally defective? >> involved with a crime. >> okay. if i'm normally mentally defective but not criminal? >> exactly. >> there you go, mike. >> thank you very much. wow. >> i have one personally. >> that's nice. >> it is. straight shooter. it's a straight shooter. let me tell ya. >> wow. sweet. well, here's my first question. do you think it is dangerous handing out guns at a bank? ♪

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♪ >> gung-ho! >> each gun makes lots of battle sounds. just press the trigger and listen. >> this sounds like a gun battle over there. >> is it real? looks like real. >> it sounds like real. >> right. the sound-o-power military and western rifles. >> this was my first gun. i couldn't wait to go outside and shoot up the neighborhood. those were the days. ♪ i was born in michigan

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♪ and i wish that i was back in the town where i was born ♪ >> by the time i was a teenager, i was such a good shot, i won the national rifle association's marksman award. i grew up in michigan, a gun-loverer es paradise. so did this man. the oscar-winning actor and president of the national rifle association, mr. charlton heston. we come from a state where everyone loves to go hunting. even the dogs. >> there were actually two of the hunters at the camp. thought they'd get a few pictures of the dog dressed up as a hunter to kind of, you know, have some fun around camp. one of the guys had the idea that, why don't we sling a rifle on the dog's back to make the pictures a little more interesting. the victim was kneeling down in front of the dog when the weapon slipped.

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the one round went through the victim's shin, the right part of his shin, and came out through the back of his calf. >> was the dog held for any period of time by the police? >> no, it wasn't. no. in michigan, law basically states that people can commit crimes. animals aren't some form of, you know -- cannot commit a crime. >> an animal cannot commit a crime or be charged in the state? >> exactly. >> is it possible the dog knew what it was doing? >> that, i don't know. i really wouldn't be able to tell you that. the dog was cute dressed up as a hunter. no doubt about it. i mean, it was a funny picture. to look at, it was kind of neat. >> yup. this was the kind of place i was from. box of 270s. >> there you go. >> perfect.

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whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. sorry about that. sorry. >> it's all right. didn't discharge. >> you don't need no gun control. we need some bullet control. we need to control the bullets. that's right. i think all bullets should cost $5,000. $5,000 for a bullet. you know why? because if a bullet costs $5,000, there'd be no more innocent bystanders. every time somebody gets shot, you be like, dang, he must have done something. that [ bleep ] spent $5,000 worth of bullets on him. people will think before they kill somebody if a bullet costs $5,000. man, i would blow your [ bleep ] head off if i could afford it. i'm beginnigoing to get me anot, start saving money, and you're a dead man.

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you better hope i can't get no bullets on layaway. >> not far from where charleston heston and i grew up is a training ground for the michigan militia. >> for self-defense, whatever technical standpoint. it is a small target. also represents the vitals on a -- on a human being, should you ever have to shoot at one. >> the michigan militia became known around the world when, on april 19th, 1995, two guys living in michigan who had attended militia meetings, timothy mcveigh, and terry nichols, grew up the federal building in oklahoma city. killing 168 people. the michigan militia wanted everyone to know they were nothing like mcveigh and nichols. >> this is an american tradition. it is an american responsibility to be armed. if you're not armed, you're not responsible. >> who is going to defend your kids? the cops? the federal government?

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>> no, none of them. >> it is your job to defend your a s and you. if you don't, you're -- >> we're not the boogeyman. we're here to defend the people of this country. >> you're the people people would like to have as their neighbor. somebody is in need, you're there to help them. >> pretty much. we're all normal people. we all have regular jobs, professions. this is what we do on our own time. >> what job do you have? >> draftsman. >> how about you? >> unemployed. >> frank, what do you do for a living? >> work for a heat treating company. drive truck for them. >> how about you? >> i'm a real estate negotiator. >> real estate negotiator. >> white collar all the way. >> you don't bring that with you, do you, when you're negotiating the real estate? >> no. >> all right. where do you live? >> westland. >> what do you have in your home? >> 9 millimeter. >> how about you? >> 12 gauge. >> 12 gauge at home.

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>> yup. >> how about you? >> m-16. >> at home? >> yup. >> yeah. >> at the ready. >> i don't agree with that. you have to worry about where the rounds are going. >> i know where they're going when i aim and shoot. >> whose idea was the callan du -- calendar? >> probably kristen. it is a level of sophistication, and you wouldn't except it from the militia. we're people too, and we have fun. >> it was a fundraiser. it showed that we're not so serious, you know. the conspiracy nuts we're not, wouldn't want the pictures to get out. it was a fun fundraiser, you know. >> i've had guns pretty much since i was old enough to have them. >> yeah. >> i learned how to use them. you're silly. because being a female, number one, i felt it was important to be able to protect myself with

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the best means possible. one of those means is having a gun. when a criminal breaks into your house, who is the first person you're going to call? most people will call the police because they have guns. cut out the middleman. take care of it. take care of your own family yourself. if you're not going to protect your family, who is? >> mama. >> we're not racist. we're not extremists. we're not fundamentalists. we're not terrorists or militants or other such nonsense. we're just concerned citizens. we have a desire to fulfill our responsibilities and duties as americans. armed citizenry is a part of that. ♪ i wish that i was in michigan down on the farm ♪ we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] it's an honor to tell you that liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. and now we need to get back to work.

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what do you grow here? >> tofu soybeans. >> tofu farmer? >> food farmer. i grow food for people to eat.

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no herbicides or pesticides. >> all natural? >> right. >> better. >> certified organic. >> healthier. >> yeah. >> basically, yeah. this is james nichols, the brother of terry nichols. james graduated from high school the same year i did in the district next to mine. on this farm in decker, michigan, mcveigh and the nichols brothers made practice bombs before oklahoma city. terry and james were arrested in connection to the bombing. >> u.s. attorneys formally linked the nichols brothers with timothy mcveigh. officials charged james, at the tearing, and terry, who was not, for conspireing to make and possess small bombs. >> terry nichols was convicted and receive ad a life sentence. timothy mcveigh was executed. the feds didn't have the goods on james, so the charges were dropped. >> i'm glad to be free and get

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on with my life. >> did timothy mcveigh stay here? >> yes. longest period, three months or so. i don't know. he was a nice guy. >> decent guy? >> oh, yeah. >> they didn't find anything on this farm? >> as to what? bomb-making material? >> any explosives. >> yeah. i had blasting caps, dynamite fuse, black powder, you know, sure. diesel fuel, fertilizer. it is normal farm stuff. it is no way connected in any way whatsoever to the oklahoma city bombing or bomb making. them people, law enforcement if you want to call them that, were here, and they were shaking in their shoes. they were physically shaking. scared to death. >> of? >> because they thought this was going to be another waco. because certain people, namely my ex-wife and other people, said i'm a radical. i'm a wild man. i got a gun under every arm, down every leg, every shoe,

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every corner of the house. you say something to me, i'll shoot ya. if the people find out how they've been ripped off and enslaved in this country by the government, by the powers to be, they will revolt with anger, merciless anger. there will be blood running in the streets. when the government turns to radical, it is your duty to overthrow it. >> why not use gandhi's way? he didn't have guns, and he beat the british empire. >> i'm not familiar with that. >> bad habit of raising psychos. bad habit of it. >> this is brent. this is his buddy, dj. they live in oscoda, michigan, across the bay from the nichols' farm. eric harris, who would later commit the massacre at columbine

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high school in colorado spent part of his childhood here. eric lived on the air force base in oscoda, where his dad flew planes during the gulf war. 20% of all the bombs dropped in that war were from planes that took off from oscoda. i asked brent if he remembered anything about eric. >> i never knew him, but i knew of him. he left here before i got here. i'm not sure, about seven years. >> about the same age of you, so you must have people in your class that -- >> yeah. a friend of mine, he knows him. he was in class with him. he lived here all his life. >> i went to school with him, and it shocked me to hear it on the news. you know, especially a kid from here would be doing that. >> i didn't last too long in this high school here. i got kicked out, expelled. >> why was that? >> i had a run-in with a kid, and i pulled a weapon on him, pulled a gun. >> a gun? >> yeah. >> what kind? >> 9 millimeter. >> i could have made a mess out of the situation. >> could have been worse? >> a lot worse. >> you could have been eric harris. >> could have been.

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>> kick you out of school? >> yeah, for 380 days. or 165 days, whatever a full school year is. >> matter of fact, for the longest time, that was my plan, to move out to colorado. >> colorado? >> i got, you know, family out there. matter of fact, one of my uncles, he's a janitor for columbine school. >> really? >> yeah. >> after columbine, what was the -- >> second highest in the bomb list because of the reputation you get in the town. >> why was your name -- you mean they did a list of -- >> of the suspects. >> of students who potentially would call in a bomb threat after columbine. >> yes. >> you were number two on the list? >> second or third opt lin the yeah. >> why is that? >> like i said, this town really gets people down. >> why did you single you out? >> because i was a troubled kid. you know -- >> trouble in school? >> oh, yeah. >> why did they put you at number two on their list after columbine of the students that could be a threat?

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come on. there must be a reason. >> okay. the thing is, i have a thing called the anarchist book. it shows you how to make bombs and stuff. if anything went wrong, they'll come to me first. i don't need that. >> because you owned a copy of the book. never made a bomb yourself? >> nope. oh, i've made them. it was nothing big. it wasn't as big as a pipe bomb. i make a tennis ball bomb or something like that. out of the anarchist book, the latest thing i built, i think would have to be -- i think i made a good 5 gallon drum of napalm. >> kids knew you were doing this? >> yes. >> you were number two on the list. >> right. >> who was number one? >> i don't know. they never told me that name. which kind of made me mad. >> because you didn't make it number one? >> because i didn't make it to number one. i know it is kind of silly, but,

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you know, i guess it was like an ego thing. knowing i was number one at something in oscoda, even if it was a bomb threat list. >> do you believe it was right to blow up the building in oklahoma city? i'm not saying you did it, but was it right? >> no, no. good question, why was the building blowed up? who blew it up? >> if someone did it, it'd be wrong? >> yeah. >> it is wrong to take lives of those people. >> yeah. i use the pen. the pen is mightier than the sword. but you always must keep a sword handy for when the pen fails. i sleep with a 44 magnum under my pillow. >> come on. that's what everyone says. is that true? >> it's true. >> if we were to go -- >> the whole world knows that. >> if we were to look under your pillow now, would we see a 44 magnum? >> yes. >> honestly? >> yes. >> would you show us right now? >> he took us to the bedroom but

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told the cameraman to stay out. there was a 44 magnum under his pillow. >> there it is. >> okay. is it loaded? >> ay-ay-ay. >> okay. i believe you. >> no, don't do that. put the gun to your head. geez. >> i'm not going to get hurt. >> this is loaded. >> it's loaded. it's safe. you have to pull the trigger, pull the hammer, and shoot it. >> put the hammer back. >> no one has a right to tell me i can't have it. it is protected under our constitution. >> where does it say a handgun is protectedsome. >> gun. >> doesn't say gun. it says arms. >> what is arms? >> could be a nuclear weapon. >> that's right. could be a nuclear weapon. >> do you think you should have the right to have weapons grade plutoni plutonium? >> i don't want it. >> should you have the right to have it if you did want it? >> that should be restricted. >> oh, oh. so you do believe in some restrictions. >> whack co-s out

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richard lui with your hour's top stories. senior u.s. official, as well as a top kurdish commander, tell nbc news the cease-fire in syria is not holding. the kurds say they continue to be attacked by turkish affiliated forces. bernie sanders returned to the campaign trail less than three weeks after suffering a heart attack. in a rally in new york city, sanders was joined by congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez who, this week, endorsed sanders. now, back to msnbc's special "bowling for columbine." ♪ happiness is a warm gun the town of virgin, utah, passed a law requiring all residents to own guns. ♪ when i hold you

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♪ i feel my finger on your trigger ♪ ♪ i know nobody can do me no harm ♪ >> he proudly displays the target he used to pass his shooting test. the thing is, he can't see it. he's blind. he's had a love affair with guns since he first got his hands on an m-16 as a teenager. >> i'm most comfortable with assault rifles. ♪ guns >> this is a great place to raise your children. really great place to raise your kids. very close-knit community that we have here. everybody looks out for everybody. >> good people. >> good people. >> this just happens to be a

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place where two young men made very bad, very wrong decisions, and there's been international notoriety as a result of it. other than that, i don't know that littleton is a lot different than a whole lot of other suburban communities. >> good morning, mr. edwards, members of the board. i'd like to report that i found the perfect location for our new corporate office. south metro denver. you can see, i don't need these. south metro denver has about the same amount of sunshine and precipitation as southern california. it's so incredible, just going to have to see it for yourselves. how does this look, mr. edwards? >> we're south of denver in a community called littleton.

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this house is pretty much your average middle class suburban home. the burglar, rapist is still in the neighborhood somewhere. citizens sometimes think that, you know, i have people tell me all the time -- >> where exactly is the burglar or rapist? if i was to stab you through this, right here, you'll have to be really close. >> right. and here's the bottom line on this -- >> what if i had a spear? >> downstairs is where the safe room was constructed. this is a solid, very heavy door. now, the criminal has to break through this door. you've created another barrier. >> an ax would do it. >> an ax would do it. i think that a couple things -- columbine did a couple things. one, it changed how we talk. that's the first thing. >> how is that? >> if i say columbine, everyone that columbine, um --

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>> what's wrong? >> nothing. >> what's wrong? >> i just -- sometimes columbine bothers me. >> that's okay. that's okay. >> there's something -- something overwhelming about that kind of viciousness, that kind of predatory action, that kind of indiscriminate killing. >> this facility where we're located right now, and two other major facilities where our employees work, are either in or very near littleton. we have over 5,000 employees at these facilities. quite a number of whom live in littleton. many of whom have children who attend columbine high school. i suppose, in one way, you can

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say what happened at columbine high school is a microcosm of what happens throughout the world. >> the signs we see, the ones that say we are columbine, is that how you, lockheed martin, feels? the biggest employer in littleton. you're the biggest weapons maker. we are columbine? >> i think we probably embody that spirit that, yeah, we're all members of this community. it behooves us to help one another and assist one another, yeah. >> he told us that no one in littleton, including the executives at lockheed, could figure out why the boys at columbine resorted to violence. >> why would kids do this? some of the root of that probably has to do with their anger about various issues. and we became aware of a program that provides anger management training. we made a $100,000 contribution to the jefferson county schools to use this training in the schools, we hope, to help both

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teachers and students learn alternative ways to deal with anger. >> so you don't think our kids say to themselves, gee, dad goes off to the factory every day and, you know, he built missiles. these are weapons of mass destruction. what's the difference between that mass destruction and the mass destruction at columbine high school? >> i guess i don't see that connection. that specific connection. the missiles you're talking about were built and designed to defend us from somebody else who would be aggressors against us. societies and countries and governments do things that annoy one another, but we have to learn to deal with the annoya e annoyance, that anger, that frustration, in appropriate ways. we don't get irritated with somebody, and just because we're mad at them, drop a bomb or shoot at them, or fire a missile at them.

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♪ i see trees of green, red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself, what a wonderful world ♪ ♪ i see skies of blue and clouds of white ♪ ♪ the bright blessed day and dark sacred night ♪ ♪ and i think to myself, what a wonderful world ♪ ♪ the colors of the rainbow, so

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pretty in the sky ♪ ♪ all also on the faces of people going by ♪ ♪ i see friends shaking hands, saying how do you do ♪ ♪ they're really saying, i love you ♪ ♪ i hear babies cry, i watch them grow ♪ ♪ they'll learn much more than i'll ever know ♪ ♪ and i think to myself, what a wonderful world ♪ ♪ yes, i think to myself ♪ what a wonderful world maria ramirez?

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south of denver in littleton, on the grounds of the u.s. air force academy, there sits an actual b-52 bomber. the plaque underneath it proudly

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proclaims that this plane killed vietnamese people on christmas eve 1972. it was the largest bombing campaign of the vietnam war. just outside denver is rocky flatts, the largest plutonium weapons making factory in the world, and now a massive radioactive dump. a few miles away, buried inside a mountain, is norad, which oversees our nuclear missiles, many of which dot the colorado landsca landscape. once a month, lockheed transports one of its rockets, with its pentagon payload, through the streets of littleton, passing nearby columbine high school, on its way to an air force base on the other side of denver. the rockets are transported in the middle of the night while the children of columbine are asleep. [ gunshots ]

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>> 22 nato missiles fell on the village. deadly cargo was dropped on the residential part of the village. >> we're striking hard at serbia's machinery of oppression while making a deliberate effort to minimize harm to innocent people. >> on the hit list were local hospitals and primary school. >> we all know there has been a terrible shooting at a high school in littleton, colorado. i hope the american people will be praying for the students and students and the teachers. we'll wait for events to unfold, and then there will be more to say. >> 911. >> yeah, columbine high school, someone is shooting. >> do you know if anybody is injured? >> yes. >> pipe bombs. pipe bombs. you name it. [ bleep ]. >> a student hit in the spine at

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co columbine. >> okay. >> shot in the head. >> shot in the head? >> automatic weapons, okay? >> yes. >> all right. >> send lots and lots of paramedics. >> still attacking in. >> yes, the school is still under attack. >> we have a couple kids in the hall that are shot. trying to get to them. do not let anybody else in until we tell them. >> 911. >> hi, nbc news. >> yes. >> we're calling about the school shooting. we're live on msnbc. >> can i -- can you -- can i patch you through to the control room and you tell us on the air? >> i understand that. >> he's gone to the library. he is in the building. >> okay. >> gone to the library. he is in the building. >> how are you? >> love your show. i watch it every night. >> thank you. >> thank you.

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>> okay. >> test. test. what's going on out there? he is pointing the gun straight at us. and thetr window went out. and the kids are standing there. >> we have cops on the way, ma'am. stay on the line with me. >> oh, my god. >> shooting in the library right now. firing shots from the library. >> firing shots in the library. >> okay, hold on here. >> i'm going to try to get out of here and call you back. >> we're y trying to find out where he is. >> hi, wendy. >> we're getting names an numbers for the press.

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>> fox has somebody on now. >> odyes. >> we talked to a whole bunch of people and we can get so many because we have so many calls coming in. >> i want to try to get to my daughter. i can't get anywhere near there. >> sir, calm down, okay? >> i wrooe entitled to information on where my children are. >> i can't get anywhere near it. i want to find out how to get in touch with my daughter. how do i get information on my daughter? >> i don't have any of o that information right now. >> in the hell not? >> my son, i'm afraid he might be involved in the shooting in columbine high school. >> involvedin how? >> he's a member of what they call a trench coat mafia. >> have you talked to your son, mr. harris? >> no, i haven't. >> they are still looking for suspects. >> your son is with who? >> theyit are called them the trench coat mafia. i heard that term on tv. >> trying to leave, i don't want

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you to get shot, okay? >> stay low. >> okay. >> when the shooting was over, eric harris and dylan klebold had killed 12 students and one teacher. dozens of others were wounded by the over 900 rounds of ammo that were fired. it is believed that the guns that they used were all legally purchased at stores and gun shows and many of the buts were bought at the littleton k-mart just down the street. >> harris' diary had details about hijacking an airplane and crashing it into new york city. some might characterize that as fantasy. >> in the end, they turned the guns on themselves. >> and they came into the

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library and shot everybody around me. and put a gun to my head and asked if we all wanted to die. >> we started hearing shots in the hall. and then they came in, and they told us to get under the desk, and we all got under the desk. and then he just started coming in the library and opening fire. >> i was just saying not to shoot me, and he shot the girl and he shot her in the head in front of me, and he shot the black kid, because he was black. >> i have only five words for you. from my cold dead hands. >> just ten days after the columbine killings, despite the community in mourning, charlton heston came to denver and held a large gun rally for the national rifle association. >> good morning. >> good morning. >> thank you all for coming and

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thank you for supporting your organization. i also want to applaud your courage in coming here today. i have a message from the mayor, mr. wellington west, the mayor of denver. he sent me this, and it says, don't come here. we don't want you here. i say to the mayor, this is our country. as americans, we're free to travel wherever we want. in our broad land. don't come here? we're already here. >> i am here today because my son daniel would want me to be

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here today. if my son daniel was not one of the victims, he would be here with me today. something is wrong in this country, when a child can grab a gun, grab a gun so easily, and shoot a bullet into the middle of a child's face, as my son experienced. something is wrong. but the time has come to come to understand that a tech-9 semi-automatic, 30 but bullet

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weapon that killed my son is not used to kill deer. it has no useful purpose. it is time to address this problem. >> we have work to do. hearts to heal. evil to defeat and a country to unite. we may have differences, yes, and we will again suffer tragedy almost beyond description but when the sun sets on denver tonight and forevermore, let it always set on we the people, secure in our land of the free, and home of the brave. i for one plan to do my part. thank you. >> like when they had their convention in colorado, a week, whatever, a month after columbine, that was just stupid. just don't do that. of course, you have the right to. but what are you doing, you know? that is just upsetting a whole city full of people.

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why would do you that? >> this is matt stone. he grew up in littleton, and has fond memories of columbine. >> columbine is like a crappy school and a whole bunch of crappy houses. >> matt and his friend trey parker found a way it take out their anger of being different in littleton, and turn it not into carnage, but into a cartoon. ♪ just another sunday morning in my quiet mountain town. ♪ you can see your breath hanging in the air. ♪ you can see homeless people but you just don't care snoelt a. ♪ it's a sunday morning in a quiet little mountain town. >> columbine is a normal high school in a normal suburb. >> painfully, painfully, painfully normal. just absolutely painfully average. littleton in general is, i

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remember being in sixth grade, and i had to take the math test to get into honors math in seventh grade and they're like don't screw this up, because if you screw this up, you won't get into honors math in seventh grade and then if you don't get into it seventh grade, and then eighth grade, and then ninth grate and then 10th grade and 11th grade and then you will just die lonely. and you believe in high cycle and a lot of the kids but the teachers and counselors don't help things, they scare you into conforming and doing good in school, by saying, if you're a loser now, you're going to be a loser forever. so with eric and dylan, you call them fag, and if i'm a fag now i'm a fag forever, and you want someone to grab them, high school is not everything, a year, a year ago. >> they're a week away from graduation. >> they're done.

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it is amazing how fast you lose touch with all those people. they beat it into your head. as early as sixth grade. don't blooep up because it will happen forever. >> and it is completely the opposite. and the little guys go down and do great things after high school and the other guys don't do anything. it is just the opposite. it is completely that i that way. >> if someone told them, maybe they wouldn't have done it. >> i guess we don't know why they did it but one thing adults should never forget, it sucks being a teenager and it really sucks going to school. >> what's your view in high school? >> i learn. i get paid to -- principal is [ bleep ]. >> what causes school violence? >> him? >> and after columbine, it really sucked being a student in

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america. >> since last spring's shooting at columbine high, schools nationwide have extended zero tolerance policies, suspending and empt pelling tuneds from, expelling students from all kinds of behavior considered ruly. >> this second grate ner illinois was suspended for ten days for bringing a nail clipper to class. that's a weapon his girl said. >> and a first grader was suspended for pointing a breaded chicken finger and said pow pow. >> a folded piece of paper like this one shaped like a gun and told his classmates he was going to kill them during a game of cops and robbers. >> this isn't a warning sign, then what is it? >> this virginia high school student, spent a month out of class, originally sent home for dying his hair blue. >> a high school honors student from michigan will be expelled later today at a school board hearing, 17-year-old jeremy hicks wore a scottish bagpipers

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outfit to the junior prom with a flag kilt, a feathered hat and a traditional knife. >> and this t-shirt landed a high school student in court. she wanted to start an anarchy club. >> little time bombs that are out there ticking, waiting to go off. and there are many of them in every community. >> students in at least seven different states have been suspended or arrested for talking about or planning plots of their own. >> it is almost like guerrilla warfare. you don't know from which direction the enemy will be coming. homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu. wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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a camera might figure it out. that was easy! glad i could help. at xfinity, we're here to make life simple. easy. awesome. so come ask, shop, discover at your xfinity store today. having a strictly endorsed dress code can ensure the school, and having a lax policy with dress makes it easier for a student to conceal a weapon and makes it difficult to identify intruders on campus. a dress code can reduce weapons violations, relieve tensions between gangs, and reduce disciplinary infractions, and

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generally improve the atmosphere of the school. our policy requires that students tuck in their shirts, making the beltline visible at all times. our students may not wear baggy pants, or colors and insignias that are commonly associated with gang activity. this policy was a collaborative effort. >> yes, our children were indeed something to fear. they had turned into little monsters. but who was to blame? all the experts had an answer. >> angry, heavy metal sub culture. >> where were the parents? >> violent -- >> south park. >> video games. >> television. >> entertainment. >> satan. >> cartoons. >> society. >> toy guns. >> drugs. >> shock rocker marilyn manson. >> marilyn manson. >> marilyn manson. >> marilyn manson. >> has canceled the last five dates of the u.s. tour out of respect for those lost in littleton. but the singer says artists like himself are not the ones to

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blame. >> this is perhaps the sickest group ever promoted by a mainstream record company. ♪ >> after columbine, it seemed that the entire focus on why the shootings occurred was because the killers listened to marilyn manson. two years after columbine, manson finally returned to denver. >> the odds fest at mile high stadium brings marilyn manson to denver. >> the protests were the religious right but i thought i would talk to him myself. >> when i was a kid growing up, music was the only escape. it had no judgments. and you put on a record, and it won't yell at you for dressing the way you do. it will make you feel better about it. >> some will be so brash to ask that if we believe all who hear manson tomorrow night will go

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out and commit violent act, the answer is no, but does everybody who watches a lexus ad go and buy a lexus, but a few do. >> i can definitely see why they could pick me, because it is easy to throw my face on a tv, because i'm in the end, for a poster boy, for fear. because i represent what everyone is afraid of. because i do and say what i want. >> if marilyn manson can walk into our town and promote hate, violence, suicide, death, drug use and columbine like behavior, i can say not without a fight you can't. >> the two by-products of that whole tragedy were violence in entertainment, and gun control. and how perfect that that was the two things that we were going to talk about with the upcoming election. and also then we forgot about monica lewinsky and we forgot about the president was shooting bombs overseas. yet i'm a bad guy.

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because i sang some rock and roll songs. and who is a bigger influence the president or marilyn manson. i would like to think me but i'm going to do go with the president. >> the day that columbine happened, the united states dropped more bombs on kosovo than any other time in that war. >> i do know that and that's really ironic, nobody said, well, maybe the president had an influence on this violent behavior. no, because that's not the way the media wants to take it and spin it, and turn it into fear, because then you're watching television, you're watching the news, and you're being pumped full of fear, and there's floods and their's aids and there's murder, cut to commercial. by the acura. buy the colgate. if you have bad breath. and they're not going to talk to you. if you have pimple, the girl's not going to bleep you. and it is just this campaign of fear and consumption. and that's what i think it that it is all based on, is the idea of keep everyone afraid and they will consume. and that's the symbol that can

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be boiled, simple as it can be boiled down to. >> if you were to talk directly to the kids at columbine or the people in that community, what would you say anything to them? >> i wouldn't say a single word. i would listen to what they had to say. and that's what no one did. >> i'm nicole. >> and i'm amanda. >> you went to columbine. >> yes. >> you are with eric and dylan in their class. >> yes. >> in their bowling class. >> yes. >> what's bowling class? >> it is just an elective you can take for a gym credit. >> where is the educational value of this? >> i guess there isn't really. >> is there any? >> i learned how to bowl a lot better. that's for sure. >> what were eric harris and dylan klebold like. >> not very social. just kind of kept to themselves. >> how good of bowlers were eric

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and dylan? >> when we played them, all i remember is they were just like crazy. they were just like chucking it down there. throw the ball down there. didn't really care too much how they bowled. >> they didn't really care about their score. >> what were the suspects doing the morning of attack? i told you that i had heard that they were bowling are and that's the only thing i am aware of. >> and did eric and dylan show up that morning and bowl two games before moving on to shoot up the school? did they just chuck the balls down the lane automatic. >> did this mean something? >> well, i guess they went to their favorite class. >> why wasn't anyone blaming bowling for warping the minds of eric and dylan for committing their evil deeds? wasn't that as plausible as marilyn monroe. after all, it was apparently the last thing they did before the massacre. but wait a minute. there's lots of bowling going on in other countries. and don't they listen to marilyn manson in germany, the home of

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sinister goth music? don't they watch the same violent movies? most of the violent video games are from japan. many people in america believe that it's the breakup of the family unit that's caused so many wayward youth to turn to violence. >> speaking of trouble, i want to kill myself. how would you like that? you can't keep me here. >> but statistics show there are more broken homes and divorce in great britain than the u.s. >> it is official. fergie's marriage is ending. >> liberals contend it is all the poverty we have in america that causes all of this violence. but the unemployment rate in canada is twice what it is here. of course, most people say it's because we americans have a violent history. a violent past. cowboys and indians. the wild west. and a history of conquering and bloodshed.

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well, if that's all it takes to end up with such a violent society like we have in america, how do you explain this? >> yet in spite of all this, how many people are killed by guns each year? in germany, 381. in france, 255. in canada, 165. in the united kingdom? 68. in australia, 65. in japan, 39.

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in the united states? 11,127. >> but that brings up an important question. then what is so different about americans? are we homicide until nature? because in europe, in australia, most other free world countries, they don't have this. they don't have people who snap and go on murderous rampages. >> they're just like us. they have the occasional person that snaps and kills a lot of people. how about a british soccer rivalry. those aren't quakers or anything. >> any time i bring up comparisons of other free world countries, our culture is so different, an they have violent video games and violent movies and alienated youth and they like us don't have prayer in school, and what is so radically different? what is it about us? >> what is it? >> what is it? >> what is it? >> what is it? >> i don't know. t is it? >> i don't know. that's why i'm p g with cigna

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presentation of "bowling for columbine." now time for a brief history of the united states of america. hi, boys and girls, ready to get started? once upon a time, there were people in europe called pilgrims and they were afraid of being persecuted. so they all got in a boat and sailed to the new world where they wouldn't have to be scared ever again. >> oh, i'm so relaxed. >> i feel so much safer. >> as soon as they arrived they were greeted by savages and they got scared all over again so they killed them all. now, they didn't calm down and they began fighting with each other. in 1775, they started killing the british so they could be free. and it worked. but they didn't feel safe. until they passed the second amendment until every man could keep their gun. >> i love my gun. >> which took us to the genius

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idea of slavery. and people were afraid to doing any work and they went to africa, and kidnapped thousands of black people and brought them to america and made them work to nor money, and i don't mean like no money at walmart and make no money, it is none, zero. and make the usa the richest country in the world. so did having all that money and free help calm people down? they got even more afraid. that's because after 200 years of slavery, the black people outnumber white people in many parts of the south. and then you can imagine. a lot of people huddled. they were freaking out. and going oh, no, don't kill me. and just in the nick of time, samuel l. colt who in 1836, invented the first weapon every that could be fired over and over without having to reload and all of the white guys were like yee-haw but it was too late. financial freedom. they were free now to go chop all of the master's heads off an everybody was like oh, no.

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we're going to die. but the freed slaves just wanted to live in peace. but you couldn't convince the white people of this. so they formed the ku klux klan. and in 1871, the klan became a leader, a terrorist organization, another group was founded, the national rifle association. and soon politicians had one of the first gun laws making it illegal for any black person to own one. it was a great year for america. the kkk and the nra. of course, they had nothing to do with each other. and this was just a coincidence. one group promoted responsible gun ownership and the other group lynched black people and that's how it worked until 1955 when a black woman broke the law by refusing to move to the back of the bus. white people couldn't believe it. what is going on? all hell broke loose. and black people everywhere were demanding their rights. and white people ran away, they ran into the suburbs where it was white and safe and clean and

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went out and bought a quarter of a billion guns and put locks on the doors and gates around the neighbors and finally they were safe and secure and snug as a bug. and everyone lived happily ever after. or did they? because if you turn on the evening news, america still seems like a pretty scary place. >> dangerous. what's he up to? >> what are you trying to pull, man? >> why are people scared. remember all of the y 2 k scares? weren't we told our very society was about to collapse because somebody forgot to type a couple of digits on a computer. >> mass chaos will begin.

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>> all day the store director watched people get ready. >> batteries sold well, lamp oil, generators. >> after sending the country into a panic, the clock struck midnight and nothing happened. or how about those killer bees that were going to attack america? >> we're almost certain they will arrive this year. >> they expect the africanized bees to reach texas this year, crossing into arizona, in about two to three years. and the killer bees, it is overly aggressive. >> they will follow you for a half a mile. >> the bees never came. >> remember the first time you heard that someone had hidden a razor blade in an apple at halloween? before long, kids were not permitted to go out in the dark on halloween to go trick-or-treater in stranger's homes. >> a lot of people said they won't give out candy treats in halloween. it's too dangerous and they're too scared. >> guess what. there never was any razor blade in the apple. in fact, only two kids in the past 40 years have been killed by halloween candy.

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and both of them were poisoned on purpose by relatives. >> it was like a scene from a horror movie. this man was mowing his lawn, when a fox darted out of the woods and attacked his riding mower. >> the warning about a popular weight loss supplement. what you don't know may kill you. >> you ride them every day the but in an instant, an escalator can mangle you or a loved one. 7 on your side reveals why you may be riding a stairway to danger. >> you might want to take some extra precautions, keep a low profile, don't go around dancing with a bunch of americans in the streets, make sure that you don't draw a lot of attention to yourself and the fact that you're american. >> the nation's top doctor says one in five americans suffer some form of mental disorder, the surgeon general david satcher, pleads with people, to seek help now. >> the media, the corporations, the politicians, have all done such a good job of scaring the american public. it's come to the point where they don't even need to give any reason at all.

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>> today, the justice department did issue a blanket alert. it was in recognition of a general threat we received. this is not the first time the justice department have acted like this. i hope it's the last. but given the attitude of the evil-doers, it may not be. >> i just love these boulevards down here though. >> yes. >> due get this in mo-- you don get in this in most of l.a. >> and how come i turn on the 11:00 news, tonight in south central, a shooting, this and that, and whatever, and i mean they're not making that up, are they? >> they're not making it up but they're choosing what they're recovering. if you turn on the tv, on the news, what are you going to hear about? dangerous black guy, right?

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unnamed black guy, you know, who is accused of some crime. or you're going to see pictures of black guys doing bad things. and hearing stories about black guys doing bad things. and we've heard this our whole lives. >> the suspect is a black male, in his 20s. we are told he has a large afro, side burns and wearing a silver chain at the time. >> police say the suspect is a black man. 6'1", 160 to 180 pounds. about 35 years of age. >> the suspect is a black male, age 16 to 18. >> the suspect is african-american. >> police say a black man, suspect. >> suspect. >> suspect. >> suspect. >> the suspect is a black male. >> a black man. >> a black man. >> a black male. >> a black man. >> a black man. >> susan smith. >> two children. >> she tells people, a black guy. >> right. >> stole the car and stole the kids and everyone at first bought it. >> some guy jumped in a red light into her car with her two kid misit and he took off, and it is a black guy, she said. >> black male? >> yes, ma'am.

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>> and i told him, i loved them and i hollered i loved them. >> and it is just a tragedy. >> the anonymous urban, which means usually black, male, comes by and does this, it is the excuse for all kinds of things. >> charles stewart the lawyer in boston kills his pregnant wife and says a black guy did it and everybody buys it. >> the suspect described as a black male 6 feet tall. chuck and carol stewart were robbed at gunpoint as they left a lamaze class. it seemed the ultimate urban nightmare. >> the thing i love about this country of mine, whether you're a psychotic killer or running for president of the united states, the one thing you can always count on is white america's fear of the black man. >> we heard this story, on the news, and in the papers, and they have killed people. killer bees. also known as africanized bees. >> i'm scared. i'm really worried with them. >> rosemary shipley never expected a nest of africanized

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killer bees to shack up across the street. >> i'm terribly allergic to them and so are my grandkids. >> they're originally in south africa and brought to brazil in 1956 and tried to mate with the european bee. kind that we're used to but they got loose, and took over and moved all the way to the southern united states. the main difference between the traditional honey bee and an africanized bee is the bee's aggressiveness. and to do this to an africanized bee hive, i could have several hun stings in a matter of minutes. >> danny raises the kinder, gentler european bees and has done the research. >> the only way you can tell the two of them is doing measurements on the body part. >> quite frankly the black community has become entertainment for the rest of the community. >> meaning what? >> the entertainment being that the crime of the day, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, it gets to be the front story and then that becomes the perception and the image of an entire people. which couldn't be further from the truth in my opinion.

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in fact, you will find, i think most african-americans, are quite adverse to gun possession. >> in suburbia, i think there's quite, you know, there's some notion that there's going to be an invading horde, come from either the city, or from some place unknown. to savage their suburban community. to me, it's, not only is it bizarre, but it's totally unfounded. >> and these pistols, curiously enough, weren't being taken off the kids in the city of flint, but were taken off of kids out in the out-county areas, in the suburban communities. and -- >> i didn't think that was what you were going to say, i thought you would say it is all of these black kids in inner city schools that have these guns. >> no, that's a -- we've never really had many problems with the guns in the city. i mean and not to say that we haven't, but we've had some, but that's never been the biggest problem. the biggest problem has been the

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gun possession by these adolescents in suburbia. >> how did you get a gun? >> i stole mine. >> where did you steal it from? >> from a friend of mine. his dad owns a bunch of guns. >> what were you doing with a stolen gun? >> we went down to detroit to try to get them. a buck 50 a pop for a mine millimeter. >> who were you trying to sell them to? >> anybody who want them. mostly gangs. >> gangs in the city of detroit. >> black? >> predominantly. >> so now you're okay? >> i'm free now. completely clear. >> you keep something down? >> i can't really keep selling gun, it is getting too risky, everybody knows me up here. people want guns in detroit, alcohol, they come to my house and that's just too much. >> too much. >> too much hassle. >> yeah. >> my favorite statistic in all of the research i did discovered that the murder rate had gone down by 20%. the coverage, that is how many murders are on the evening news,

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it went up by 600%. >> the american people are conditioned by network tv, by local news, to believe that their communities are much more dangerous than they actually are. for example, here, in this community, crime has decreased every year, for the past eight years. yet gun ownership, particularly handgun ownership is on the increase. >> crime rates have been dropping. dropping, dropping. fear of crime has been going up, up, up, how can that be possible? it doesn't make any sense. and it makes perfect sense when you see what we're hearing from politicians and seeing on, in the news media. >> we're right here on the corner of florence and normandie. kind of ground zero for the l.a. riots. >> right. >> you know, a couple of white guys, go down and walk around south central, they're going to get killed, which i can tell you, it is a common perception. >> the odds of something that is going to happen to us, are

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really, really slight. miniscule. >> okay. >> if you look up there, you get a different symbol of the hollywood sign, and it means something very different than the corner of normandie for most americans and most of the world, it means glamour and hollywood and except we can't see it. >> where is the hollywood sign? i can't see it. >> you can't see it because of something that is probably much more dangerous for us right now, which is the stuff we're breathing. >> the pollution that is blocking the hollywood sign. >> and it is more dangerous than all of the other stuff the media is telling us to be afraid of. >> i noticed a number of helicopters that appeared in the sky within second, the news media started to arrive. >> what's the story here? >> i'm waiting and thought you would know. >> i don't know anything. >> talking to a gun, a guy with a gun. not sure. that's all they told me. >> okay. >> no action. get the camera down here. >> and i saw the chopper.

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what story are you going to? >> a near drowning. >> a drowning? >> a near browning. >> how about the story how you can't see the hollywood hills because of the pollution? could you maybe do a story on that tonight? >> pollution, it sounds good. >> you can't see it. you can't see anything around here. >> if you to choose between a guy with a gun and a near drowning of a baby, where would you go? >> with the gun. >> go with the gun always? >> yes. >> go with the gun. >> all over here? >> all over? >> not yet. >> not yet. >> wait for these sergeants down here. to come down. . >> and i was just wondering, i just got here to l.a. today, i can't see the hollywood sign down on the normandy, i can't see the sign because of the pollution. is there anybody you can go and arrest for polluting up the air? >> absolutely not. why is?

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for over a deck there has been one show on american television that has consistently brought black and white people together in an effort to reduce our fears and celebrate our diversity. >> put your hand back here. >> that show is "cops." >> i went to see a former producer of "cops" and executive producer of world's wildest police videos, mr. dick hurlen.

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>> you look liberal up in the dictionary and i think my picture is in there somehow. >> why not be compelled to do a show that focuses on what is causing the crime, as opposed to just chasing the criminals down. >> because i think it is harder to do that show. i don't know what that show would be. >> anger does well. hate does well. violence does well. tolerance and understanding and trying to learn to be a little different than you were last year does less well. >> does less well in the ratings. >> oh, yes. >> because maybe we in the television business, because we tend to demonize black and hispanic people, then those watching it at home are going, i don't want to help those people, i'm not going to do anything to help them, because i hate them now, because they may hurt me. you know, you know what i'm saying? >> i know what you're saying, i'm not sure that's what we're doing. i'm not sure we're demonizing black and hispanic people, particularly, i don't think we

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show black and hispanic people as being criminals. i'd like to say not more often but probably they are more often, but i certainly don't think we're certainly not trying to demonize black and hispanic people. >> we show them on the news, we show them on tv, as pretty scary people. >> and i agree, i think i'd like to see that reversed as much as possible. >> start tonight. >> well, the thing is, i don't know how to start tonight. i don't know how to tell that story. if i knew, if i was smart enough to do that -- >> i'll pitch you one. >> okay. all right. >> do a show called not cops but "corporate cops". >> coming to get you. better run while you can. coming to get you. better run while you can. >> i love the idea, i don't think it would make very interesting reality tv.

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unless we can get those people to get in their suvs and drive really fast down the road away from the police. >> but i'm telling you, everyone in america who's got just your basic every day, you know, job, is going to love watching the boss being chased down the street with his shirt off, thrown to the ground and a knee to the neck. i'm telling you that is going to get ratings. >> i'm with you and if i can find a police officer that will prosecute corporate criminals appropriately, and would go after them appropriately, in other words, what you do to a man whose just stole an lady's purse with $85 to it, then you need to do an appropriate response to a man who has just stolen $85 million from indigent people, then boy, we're going to be out there filming that, but as a matter of fact when police go after the guy who has just stolen $8 a million, they treat him like he was a member of the city council, as he may or may not be. and it's not exciting television. >> if you could get that guy to

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take his shirt off -- >> right. >> and throw his cellular phone at the police as they come through the door. try to jump out the window. then we'd have a show. >> you watch violence on tv in a place like canada and you know it is not happening next door. you watch it here, and you know it is happening next door. >> right. >> i think that's -- i don't know what the difference is, but there is a big difference. >> why isn't it, though, why isn't it happening in canada? why aren't there, you know, 10,000 murders a year? >> i don't know, but i want to go to canada to retire or something because it sounds like where we want to be. i'd like to find out what that difference is. wouldn't you? >> yes. i'm trying to find out. >> where are you supposed to be right now? >> school. >> school. >> school. >> aren't you worried about what you're not learning. >> i'm mostly helping other people in the class and i barely get to do my work period.

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>> how about you? not worried about your education? >> i got the textbook. >> why do you think we have so many gun murders in america? >> i have no idea. people must hate each other or something. >> you mean canadians don't hate each other? >> we do, but we don't go to the point of shooting somebody just to get revenge. >> what do you do? >> i don't know. tease them maybe. maybe fun of them. ridicule them. >> eggs. >> how many gun murders in sarnia this year? >> none. >> last year? >> i believe we had one at the time. >> the before that? >> i can't recall what we had. >> maybe one in the last three years? >> probably. yeah. >> uh-huh. >> very low. very low for the city. >> well, of course, there is no murders here because there is only 70,000 people. and it's the kissing capital of the world. so i went down the river, to another canadian city that was five times as large as sarnia, and windsor, ontario, just across the river from detroit.

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i was sure there would be more murders in windsor. >> every hear of anybody being shot by a gun in windsor? >> no. >> ever any murders here? >> there was one a long time ago probably. >> how long ago? am your life time, in your lifetime? >> in my lifetime, 15, 20 years ago, one murder. >> in fact this windsor police officer told me the only gun murder he could recall in windsor in the last three years was committed by a guy from detroit who had a stolen gun from minnesota. with nearly 4,000 people in the windsor area, there were simply no canadians shooting other canadians. i thought it might be time for some fun facts about canada. i hit the streets of new york, to find out what the average american thought about our friendly neighbor to the north. >> canadians don't watch as much violent movies as americans do.

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>> that's wrong. hordes of young boys, all throughout canada, eagerly await the next hollywood blood bath. >> the guy gets his leg tooken off. and a lot of girls there. >> yes. >> and naked. >> yes. >> naked at one point. >> i like that stuff. >> what movie did you guys see tonight? >> sixth day. >> with arnold schwarzenegger? >> yes. >> does it make you want to come out here and play this shoot them up game? >> they don't have unemployment. >> and we had higher unemployment. >> i think there is mostly white people in canada. >> hmm. that's strange. because when i'm in canada, i see black people everywhere. and yellow people. and brown people. and 13% of the country is nonwhite. so the canadians are pretty much

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just like us. and the reason that they have so few murders has to be because they've got so few guns. >> what kind of gun to you have? >> i hunt. i own rifles and shotguns and pistols. >> about how many guns total? >> probably about seven. >> seven guns? >> yes. >> do you have a gun? >> i have a gun. >> yes. >> how many guns? >> half a dozen. you could own how many people that own guns that you know? two, three? a dozen? >> more than that. >> well, there's a tremendous amount of gun ownership in the country, we are a large country geographically and we grew up with hunting and fishing part of tradition. >> 10 million families in canada and the best estimate is somewhere in the region of 7 million guns. >> wow, canada is one gun

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toting, gun crazy country. >> i can buy a gun any time i want. >> you have a glock here. where can we get a glock in canada? >> most gun stores will sell them to you if you have the proper permit. >> despite all of the tough gun laws, take a look at what i, a foreign citizen, was able to do at the local canadian walmart. >> where is the ammunition at? >> where is the ammunition? >> back here. >> what kind are you looking for? >> you know, like bullets. >> that's right. i could buy as much live ammunition as i wanted to. in canada. >> you take american? >> do you lock your doors? >> no. >> are you afraid of anything? >> no, not normally, no. >> do you lock your doors at night? >> nope. >> you don't lock your doors? >> no. >> well, are you afraid of anything? >> not really. >> have you ever been broken

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into? >> yes. >> what happened. >> they broke in, i wasn't there, they stole some booze and cigarettes and left so i figured it must have been some teenagers out to have a little bit of fun and that's all they took. some booze and some cigarettes. >> have you ever been a victim of crime? >> yes. >> what kind of crime? >> i have had people walk in while i've been sleeping, and vandalize my home and steal from me. >> and that didn't want you to make you lock your doors at night? >> nope. nope. >> as an american, with three locks on his doors, i found this all a bit confusing. even here in toronto, a city of millions, people just didn't lock their doors. >> so you don't lock your doors, but the americans do. why is that? >> it must be, must be afraid of your neighbor. >> do you ever leave your doors unlocked at home? >> yes. >> yes. >> you do? >> yes. >> where do you live? >> we live around here. >> toronto. >> around here. >> you leave your doors unlocked? >> yes. >> you think as americans that the lock is keeping people out

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of your place. we as canadian see it more as, we lock the door, we're imprisoning ourselves inside. >> you don't want to do that? >> not really, no. we don't want to, no. >> i decided to go unannounced to a neighborhood in toronto. to see if this unlocked door thing was true. >> hi. sorry. just checking. >> oh, hello. oh, hi. nobody locks their door. nobody locks their doors in this town. >> every >> do you like living here? >> i like it very much. >> and the t-shirt. >> the t-shirt, too. >> this door was wide open and you're not afraid. >> no. >> should i be afraid? >> i don't know. you live there. >> i don't think i'm afraid. >> you're not are you.

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>> no. >> i'm sorry about intruding. >> no problem. >> thank you for not shooting me. >> no problem at all. >> bye-bye. >> okay. >> as an american, i got to say, this all seemed kind of strange. until i looked up at the tv in the bar, and noticed what they watch for their evening news. >> they're friends of ours, we will certainly listen to them courteously and carefully and just don't make war because someone says this. night after night, the canadians weren't pumped full of fear and the politicians seemed to talk kind of funny. >> make sure they have proper day care and assistance for parents in an old age care, and proper health care and ensure that they don't lose their business or house because they can't afford their medical bills and that's how you build a good society. >> you don't win by beating up people and that is the approach by some of the right wing governments across north american, they pick on the people who can't defend themselves and at the same time they are turning around and

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giving spings support and tax breaks and tax benefits to people who don't need them. >> where are the indigent in the city? where do they live? >> indigents? >> you act like you've never heard the word before? >> we don't have that problem here, really. >> so i asked him, could you at least take me to a canadian slum, and well, this is what a ghetto looks like in canada. >> is this the same type of mentality that says with canadian, you think if somebody gets sick, they should be able to have health care. >> oh, definitely. >> yes. >> yes. >> why? >> because. >> it is human right. everyone's got the right to live. >> how much did you have it pay for your treatment? >> i wouldn't know what the bill. is it is covered by our hospital pay. >> you are telling me you didn't have to pay anything? >> no, i don't. >> i have family that lives in the states. i used to live in canada and moved over there, and it is so different. >> they get afraid more easily?

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>> oh, yes. yup. they're much more so. because everybody reacts over there just like that. they don't stop and think. first reaction is pull the gun out. you're on my property. you know, i don't know. it's just different over here. >> where do you live? >> detroit. >> detroit? >> yes. >> come over to canada here for the night? >> right. >> uh-huh. >> people are a little more open-minded here, a little more welcoming? >> yes. >> you feel any difference when you cross over to this country, and be honest now. >> it is a lot lighter. >> the segregation over there is definitely much more. >> in the united states? >> yes. >> intensified. >> yes. >> you can feel it. >> like they got you. >> that's canada. >> and every time i turn on the tv, a murder, a gun fight. >> i think the states are, their view of things is fighting. that's how they resolve

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everything, if there is something going on in another country, you know, they send people over to fight it. and canada is more just like let's negotiate. let's work something out where the states is like, we'll just kill you and that will be the end of that. >> if guns were, if more guns made people safer, then america would be one of the safest countries in the world. it isn't. it's the opposite. r car insurance so you only pay for what you need. that's a lot of words. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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school that is been downed. i need an ambulance immediately. >> i have a child that's been shot. >> i heard that 911 call on tv someplace. it was horrible. it was just -- >> she kept asking where's the shooter, she said she's gone, i need some help. >> the little girl was in there too. >> she was on the floor. >> and the police and the medics came. >> by the time the medics were here, i remember him stepping in and taking over the room. he says you have to leave.

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and then when medics and police come in, you're no longer in control. >> was she still alive then? >> her lips were beginning to turn blue. >> back in my hometown of flint, michigan, a six-year-old first grade boy at buell elementary had found a gun at his uncle's house where he was staying because his mother was being evicted. he brought the gun to school and shot another first grader, 6-year-old kayla rolland. with one bullet that passed through her body, she fell to the floor and lay there dying, while her teacher called 911 for help. no one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl. as if the city had not been through enough hero in the past two decades, it was home to a new record, the youngest school shooting ever in the united states. on the morning of the shooting it only took the news helicopters and satellite trucks

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a half hour to show up on the scene. >> check in the truck. we're doing one in 30 minutes. >> this evening about 7:00 will be the public memorial service. we are expecting hundreds of people. they will mourn the loss of little kayla, a tiny little girl who loved pizza, teddy bears and who was taken away from us much too soon. gina? >> good morning, christine. the funeral home passing out these pink ribbons to support the family. today has been an emotional day remembering little kayla. fox 2 news. >> nice job. >> michelle, we're having technical problems, okay? well, don't talk to me about it. call our sat truck. i need a haircut, man, i'm a pig, a rug. here we go.

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some too choked up to speak about it. there's a memorial service scheduled for 7:00 tonight. live in flint, michigan, jeff, k 7 reports. thank you. >> thank you. >> want some hair spray? >> i kind of need it. don't i? this man prayed for kayla and then threat balloon go. >> we have the picture, not the black and white. there are some networks especially that go from, unfortunately, tragedy to tragedy. and i feel bad for them because that's all they see. tragedies. we're just trying to crunch right now for the 5:00 and the 6:00. today we're feeding cnn and fox. >> the national media had never visited buell elementary or the

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beacher school district in which it sat, or this part of flint ever before. and few, if any, of these reporte reporters, brother, to visit it. if they had ventured away a block from the school, they would see a different tragedy as to why this little girl was dead. for over 20 years this impoverished area in the hometown of the world's largest corporation had been ignored as completely as it had been destroyed. with 87% of the students living below the official poverty line, buell and beacher and flint did not fit into the accepted and widely circulated story line put forth by the nation's media. that being the one about america in its invincible economy.

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the number one cause of death among young people in this part of flint was homicide. the football field at flint beecher was sponsored by a funeral home. the kids at beecher have won 13 state track championships, but they've never had a home track meet because around the football field all they have is this dirt ring. years ago someone here named the streets in this part of town after all the ivy league schools, as if they dreamed of better days and something greater for themselves. >> the children are doing well. the faculty and staff are doing well. but we don't forget. we don't forget.

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>> well, i know. i know. i don't want it to happen to anybody else here. it's okay. it's okay. it's okay. it's okay. i'm sorry. >> i'm sorry. >> from my cold, dead hands. [ cheers and applause ] >> just as he did after the columbine shooting, charlton heston showed up in flint to have a big pro-gun rally. >> freedom has never seen greater peril nor needed you more urgently to come to her defense than now. >> before he came to flint, he is ton was interviewed by the georgetown hoya about kayla's death. >> we wanted to let the nra know that we haven't forgotten about

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kayla rolland. how can they come here? to me it's like they're rubbing our noses. >> headrestton was asked why he came to flint after the tragedy at buell, and what did the nra have to say about 6-year-olds using guns? >> we spent $21 million every year. we teach it to 5, 6-year-olds. we say if you see a gun, don't touch it, leave the room, call an adult. >> and then moses himself showed up. >> right here in the city of flint? >> right here in flint. >> were there people that wanted you to try this child or try him as an adult? >> oh, oh, yeah. there were people from all over america that wrote and called and sent mail. it was amazing to me groups that were affiliated with the nra, people i call gun nuts writing

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me and telling me what a horrible thing it was that i had admonished homeowners in our country to be careful about bringing weapons into their home. they wanted this little boy hung from the highest tree. there was such an undercurrent of racism and hate and anger. it was ugly. >> that's a picture that the little boy that was involved in the buell school shooting, once he was brought back to our office about 15 minutes after the shooting took place gave him some crayons and stuff to occupy him a little bit. he came over and drew that picture for me because at the time i had pictures behind my desk that my children drew for me and he wanted to draw me one to hang on my desk. >> this is what he drew for you. what did he say this was? >> that's him at his house. >> that's him at his house? why did you decide to hang onto it? >> because of the gravity of the situation.

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he asked me to hang that, so i put it in a frame and that's where it'll stay. >> terrell owens was the mother of the 6-year-old boy. in order to get food stamps and health care for her children, she was forced to work as part of the state of michigan's welfare to work program. this program was so successful in tossing poor people off welfare that its founder, gerald miller, was soon hired by the number one firm in the country that states turn to to privatize their welfare systems. that firm was lockheed martin. with the cold war over and no enemy left to frighten the public, lockheed found the perfect way to diversify and the perfect way to profit from people's fears with an enemy much closer to home, poor black mothers like tamar la owens. >> we have a one-parent family and the mother is traveling 60 miles, hour and a half away to go to work and an hour and a

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half to come home. how does that help a community? but that part of the state making parents responsible, making them work -- >> welfare to work. >> that's a program that ought to be stopped because it really has no merit. i think it adds measure to the problem than it does to solve it. >> really? >> i do. >> you're the sheriff and you feel this way? >> i do, i do. i wish i could put to parents in every home and make every parent equally responsible, but you can't do that. but we're not doing anything by taking one parent and putting they may on a bus and send them out of town to make $5.50 an hour. >> this is the bus that she was forced to ride every day in order to work off the welfare money the state had given her. she and many others would make the 80-mile round trip journey every day from flint to auburn hills in oakland county, one of the wealthiest areas in the country.

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to marla would leave early in the morning and return late at night, rarely seeing her young children. >> what's the point of having -- what's the point in doing that? what does the state benefit. we have a child dead. it's going to that may be part of the problem. you have the one parent out. not you or anybody else that can tell me that that best serves a community. i shake my head and wonder why. >> how long have you been riding the bus? >> i've been working here just about three years now. >> three years? >> yeah. my brother, i got my brother working here, half my neighborhood works out here. that's about everybody i know personally works out here in the mall. in flint doing the same thing i'm doing now, they only pay minimum wage in flint. i come 40 miles to make $3, $4 an hour. >> how much do you make an here? >> $8.50.

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>> $8.50? is that enough to pay the bills? >> no. >> did you know tamar la owens? i think she rode this bus? >> i knew her a big, not real good. >> nice lady? >> she was okay. she did her job. worked two jobs. >> two jobs? >> she was trying to make ends meet. ♪ ♪ we're going hopping >> this is dick clark's american bandstand grill where she worked one of her two jobs. >> i think she worked in this room as a bartender, making drinks, making shakes desserts. >> she was a good employee? >> she was. she also worked in the fudgery in the mall here. >> right. >> dick clark is an american icon, the man who brought rock 'n' roll into our homes every week on american bandstand. >> every party you like, you can link up to a part of music usually.

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as dick says, it's the sound track of our lives. music is the sound track of our lives. >> his restaurant and the fudgery here in auburn hills applied for special tax breaks because they were using welfare people as employees. even though tamar la worked up to seven hours a week in these two jobs in the mall, she did not earn enough to pay her rent. in one week before the shooting was told by her landlord that he was evicting her. with nowhere to go and not wanting to take her two children out of school, she asked her brother if they could stay with him for a few weeks. it was there that tamar la's son found a small .32 caliber gun and took it to school. she didn't see him take the gun to school because she was on a state bus to serve drinks and make punch the for rich people. ♪ bandstand i decided to fly out to california to ask dick clark what he thought about a system

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that forces poor single mothers to work two low-wage jobs to survive. >> i'm doing a documentary on these school shootings and, you know, guns and all that. and in my hometown of flint, michigan, this little 6-year-old shot a 6-year-old. >> get in the car, dave. watch your arm. >> sorry. >> i'm sorry, we're really late. >> but the mother of the kid who did the shooting works at dick clark's all american grill. >> forget it. >> in oakland county. >> close the door. >> it's a welfare to work program. >> close the door. >> these people are forced -- no, no no. >> come on. >> i want you to help me to convince the governor of michigan it's a welfare to work -- these women are forced to work. they've got kids at home. dick. oh, geez. granted. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (vo) the big dogs.

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. i'm dara brown with breaking news from the white house. president trump reversing course saying he no longer holds the next g-7 at his doral florida golf resort. critics said the doral decision was an obvious attempt for the president who would enrich himself with taxpayer money. the president tonight blamed the media and democrats for hostility to the choice zpbs search for a new site will now begin. now back to msnbc's special presentation of bowling for columbine. in george bush's america, the poor were not a priority. and after september 11th, 2001,

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correcting america's social problems took a backseat to fear, panic, and a new set of priorities. >> one way to express our unity is for congress to set the military budget, the defense of the united states, as the number one priority and fully fund my request. ♪ >> we've been selling a lot of chemical suits with the gloves and the hoods and selling a lot of gas zblasks i'm trying to get one for myself and my puppy. >> dennis marks and his wife have been stocking up supplies. >> weapons, ammunition. >> walmart says after september 11th gun sales sunchd 0i, ages up 40%. in dallas they're already taking potshots at osama bin laden. >> in the months following the 9/11 attacks, we americans were gripped in a state of fear. none of us knew whether we too

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would die at the hands of the evil doerz or who was sitting next to a guy trying to light his shoes on fire. the threat seemed very real. >> i'm not going to take the chance, that's all. just trying to protect myself and my family. >> our growing fears were turned into a handsome profit for many. >> mike blake saw 30% increase in sales at adt over the last month. most of the people he talks to are still a little uneasy over the september 11th terrorist attacks. >> how when we afraid of these things? a lot of people are making a lot of money off it and a lot of careers off of it. and so there's vested interest, a lot of activity to keep us afraid. >> what better way to fight box cutter wielding terrorists than to order a record number of fighter jets from lockheed? yes, everyone felt safer, especially with the army doing garbage detail on park avenue. and the greatest benefit of all of a terrorized public is that the political leaders can get away with just about anything.

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>> i never seen a better example of cash and carry governments than this bush administration and enron. >> there are a lot of things i didn't know after the world trade center attack, but one thing was clear, whether it was before or after september 11th, a public that's this out of control with fear should not have a lot of guns or ammo laying around. >> well, i was shot with a tech 9 9. >> 9 millimeter? >> yeah. it was supposed semiautomatic but seemed like fully automatic to me. >> this was richard gos tal doe, this is mark taylor. both of these boys were shot the day of the columbine massacre. richard is paralyzed for life and in a wheelchair. mark is barely standing after

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numerous operations. >> the kids at columbine had to pay a penalty. we paid a penalty that day for this nation the way we look at it. >> mark and richard were disabled and suffering from the 17 cent kmart bullets still embedded in their bodies. as they showed necessity various entry points for the bullets, it'll of one way we could reduce the number of guns and bullets laying around. i asked the boys if they would like to go to kmart to return the merchandise. >> ready? >> you go. >> me? >> okay.

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>> do you want me -- >> okay. >> hi. >> can you turn camera off, please? >> we're here to see mr. conway. >> i need you to turn that off. >> okay, turn it off now. >> hey, michael. >> how are you? >> i'm maria lor republicans, i'm director of relation for kmart. how can i help you today? i'm here today. this is richard gos tal vo. >> richard, nice to meet you. >> this is mark taylor. >> mark. >> they are students from columbine high school. they were shot at columbine in the massacre with bullets from kmart. >> you came a long way. >> yes. >> from colorado. >> yeah. i just think since you stopped selling the handguns and all, it made sense to stop selling the bullets too.

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>> our request is that you get rid of the 9 millimeter bullets and you don't sell them. >> we do carry, you probably are aware of kmart. we do only carry, you know, sporting firearms and the accessories that go with those. we'll certainly take your message to our chairman and ceo. he's not here today. >> he's not here today? >> no. he's not here actually this whole week. >> not at all during the week? do you have a limit on the number of bullets, ammunition that people can purchase? >> you know, i can't answer these questions. i'm not the merchandiser who places those products in the store. >> can i speak to that person? >> i can get answers for you if you would like to leave your card. >> we don't want to leave a card. i'll just be blunt. the reason why we can't come back is because mark has a kmart bullet an inch away from your aorta. >> between my aorta and spine.

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>> i'm glad you're still able to stand. >> i told him somebody here would listen, somebody here would take their request seriously. not just a pr person, but somebody who has the authority to answer the questions that they want answered. >> kmart does care about this. i can't go any further right now. until i make a call -- >> i'm going to go back to the office and see if there's any more merchandise. >> mary went back upstairs. two hours later she brought down this guy whose job it is to buy the bullets for kmart. >> stay out of trouble. >> yes. >> we're not the ones in trouble, guys. >> mark thought he'd show him his bullet wounds. >> from your bullets. that's where the kmart bullets went in. >> take care. >> is anybody else going to come down? is anybody else going to come down? is that it? >> let me check. >> we waited around a couple

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more hours, but no one else came down. as we left the building, mark came up with an idea. he suggested that we go to the nearest kmart and buy out all of their bullets. >> just take as many of those as you can. >> yeah. you can come around here and look. >> what else do we have over here? do you have -- i'll take them all. you're 17 and you're what? >> 16. >> holy [ bleep ]. >> oh, my god. >> mark pretty much cleaned them out of their ammunition. the next day we decided to go back to kmart headquarters with all the bullets. this time we brought the press. >> our coverage continues. >> coming up, a warning to everyone this summer to watch out for snakes. you'll hear from a mom who was bitten by a rattle snake. >> and also students who survived the columbine massacre are in town.

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they are very angry with kmart. >> we're here to see chuck conway, the chairman of kmart. >> how are you doing? okay. they would to see mr. conway. >> here's the 9 millimeters. these are the bullets that are in both richard and in mark's body right now. >> i don't want those. >> i'm sorry. >> i'll have somebody here in five minutes. do me a favor, don't block the door. >> we'll go outside and somebody will come out? my name is is lori mctavish. i'd like to deliver a statement. what happened in columbine, colorado, was truly tragic and touched every american. we're sorry for the disadvantage to this young man. kmart is phasing out the sale of handgun ammunition the business

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plan calls for this to be complete in the continental u.s. within the next 90 days. kmart representatives met with mr. moore and the students from columbine, colorado, yesterday, and listened to their concerns about the product carried in kmart stores. the company committed at the end of that meeting that kmart would have an answer for them within a week's time. >> well, the first thing we want to do is thank you for committing to no longer selling handgun ammunition in your stores, and within 90 days? >> the process will be phased out within 90 days. >> after 90 days there will be no more selling of ammunition? >> firearm ammunition will not be sold after 90 days in our stores. >> we greatly appreciate that. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. thank you. really great. [ applause ] wow. that blows my mind. that's more than what we asked for. >> remarkable.

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this is remarkable. >> did you think? we're like, we're just getting ready to go to the airport. >> the kids from columbine scored an overwhelming victory against kmart and it inspired me to do something i knew i had to do. all i needed was a star map. granted. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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>> this is michael moore, the filmmaker. how are you doing? >> fine, thank you. >> i was wondering if i could talk to you. we're making a documentary ab t about, you know, the whole gun issue. i'm a member of the nra. i thought maybe we could talk a little bit about this -- >> tell you what, let me look at my calendar. i may be able to give you some time tomorrow. i have some people here now. >> okay. how can i --peop pardon me? >> hold the phone. i can give you time tomorrow morning, i think that's thursday. >> yes. >> let's say 8:30. >> 8:30 in the morning? and just come here? >> yeah. >> okay, good. >> hello? >> hi, it's michael moore to see

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charlton heston. ♪ >> hi. good morning. how are you? thank you very much for agreeing to see me. >> he took me out to his pool and tennis house so we could have a chat. i told him that i was a lifetime member of the nra and showed him my membership card. >> good for you. well done. >> i assume you have guns in the house here? >> indeed, i should have been.

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bad guys, take notice. >> you have them for protection? >> yeah, sure. >> have you ever ban victim of crime? >> no. >> never? yeah. never been assaulted? >> no. >> no violence toward you, but you have guns in the house? >> loaded. >> loaded. they're loaded. >> well, if you really need a weapon for self-defense, you need it loaded. >> okay. but why do you need it for self-defense? >> i don't. >> yeah, you've never ban victim of crime, never been assaulted here. >> that's true. >> why would you -- so why not -- why don't you unload the gun? >> because the second amendment gives me the right to have it loaded. >> i agree, i totally agree with that. i'm just saying, you know, i mean, the second amendment -- >> let's say it's a comfort factor. >> it gives you comfort to know there's a loaded gun? >> yeah. >> comfort meaning it allows you to relax and feel safe? >> not worry about it. >> not worry, not be afraid. >> and i'm not really, but i'm exercising one of the rights passed down to me from those

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wise old dead white guys that invented this country, if it was good enough for them, it's good enough for me. >> you can still exercise the right having it unloaded and locked away somewhere? >> i choose to have it. >> what strikes me as interesting is that in other countries where they don't have the murder rate, the gun murder rate that we have, that many people say that's because they don't have guns around, it's hard to get a gun in britain or germany or whatever. but we went to canada and there's 7 million guns in 10 million homes. >> there won't be very long. >> hear me out, though. canada has hunters, millions of guns, and yet they had just a few murders last year. that's it a country of 30 million people. here's my question. why is it that they've got all these guns laying around, yet they don't kill each other at the level that we kill each other? >> i think american history is -- has a lot of blood on its hands. >> and german history doesn't, and british history?

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>> i don't think as much. >> oh. germans don't have as much blood on their hands? they're all violent people. they have bad guys, they have crime, they have lots of guns. in the past -- >> the point can be explored. you're good to explore it at great length. but i think that's about all i have to see on it. >> you don't have an opinion as to why it is that we are the unique country, the only country that kills each other with this level of guns? >> we have probably more mixed ethnicity than other countries, some other countries. >> you think it's an ethnic thing. >> no, i don't. i wouldn't go so far as -- we had enough problems with civil rights in the beginning. but i have no zanis what do you mean you think it's a mixed ethnicity. i don't understand. >> you said how is it that --

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>> that we're unique. >> that so many americans kill each other. i don't know that that's true, but -- >> you know that. we know we have the highest murder rate with guns and it's way higher than any other country. >> the only answer i can give you is what i already gave. >> you which is? >> that we have a history of violence, perhaps more than most countries, not more than russia, not more than japan. >> not more than germany. >> not more than germany, but certainly more than canada. >> i come from flint, michigan. last year a little 6-year-old boy took a gun into a classroom and shot and killed a 6-year-old girl. it was really a tragic thing. >> this was kids? >> it was a 6 yearly. did you hear about this, 6-year-old shooting a 6:00-year-old? >> yeah, >> here's my question. after that happened, you came to rally.

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>> uh-huh. >> you know, i just -- >> vice president. >> did you feel it was being at all insensitive to the fact this community had just gone through -- >> actually, i wasn't aware at the time we came. we came in the early morning rally and went on. >> you didn't know at the time when you were there this killing had happened? had you known -- >> would i have canceled? i don't -- >> it wasn't like it was already planned. i mean, the choice to come there was made after this horrible killing took place. had you known that, would you have come? >> i don't know. i have no idea. >> maybe not. maybe not. you think you would like to apologize to the people of flint for coming. >> you want me to apologize? me to apologize to the people in flint? >> or the people in columbine for coming after their horrible

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tragedy. why do you go to places after they have horrible tragedies. i'm a member of your group. >> i'm afraid we don't agree. >> on that you think it's okay to show up at these events? you don't think it's okay? mr. he adrestton. one more thing. this is who she was. this is her. please don't leave. mr. heston, please, take a look at her. this is the girl. [ dog barking ]

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[ birds chirping ] ♪ >> i left the heston estate atop beverly hills and walked back into the real world, an america living and breathing in fear. >> in your mind, you imagine somebody who might break into your house to harm you or your family? what does that person look like? >> you. her. him. >> really. >> camera guy. there could be a gun in the camera u i don't know. >> where gun sales were now at an all-time high.

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>> can shoot as fast as a semiautomatic. >> where in the end it all comes back to bowling for columbine. >> three bowling alley employees shot to death at the broadway lanes. >> nothing i really know. i really don't know anything. just that three people died. >> littleton in a bowling alley. >> i'm sorry. >> yes, it was a glorious time to be an american. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ red roses too ♪ i see them blue ♪ for me and you ♪ and i say to myself ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ i see skies -- >> that marks our screening of bowling for columbine. now that you've seen the film,

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michael moore is back with us to discuss this documentary. what stands out to you in looking at the film in today's world? >> the saddest thing that stands out to me is that i could have made this film this year and released it this weekend. it would be every bit as relevant, sadly, as it was 17 years ago when it was released. i should never be able to -- i should not even have to say that. we should not in 17 years have reached a point where that film is still -- it's like it was made yesterday except the yesterday was that was when there was one of those mass school shootings. and now we've had to live through dozen of them. >> has anything improved? >> yes. some things have improved. some people have decided to not be so afraid that, they don't

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need a gun in the house, that they're making -- they've realized that they and their family members are less safe with a gun in the house. and so we now have, according to an article in "the washington post," they did a study on this last year. 78% of americans do not own a gun. we're described, especially in other countries, they think we're a nation of gun nuts. that's not true. the vast majority of us don't even have a gun. but the scary part of that article in the "post" was that of these 300 plus million guns that we do have, 160 million of them, nearly half of the guns are owned by only 3% of the population. 3% of americans own half the guns. that's not good because they are clearly -- they have anywhere from eight or nine to 20, 22

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guns. some have a lot more. arsenals have been built across the country, and that is not a good thing. it is not right or necessary for a citizen to own an arsenal. it's why we don't allow a citizen to own a tank. you can't own a bazooka, you can't own a rocket launcher. there is second amendment, but it doesn't say you can just own any arm. and it's not safe, especially in the climate in which we live, that that 3% have that many guns. who are the 3%? let's just be honest. it's not women. you know, one of the things that's not in this film that i've learned and i thought about since i made this movie is that most gun violence is not committed by women. so we're actually safe from the majority of the population, 51% of the country are women.

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you know, when you leave tonight and walk out of nbc, you know, it's dark, you're careful. but the thought in your head is not some woman is going to jump out of the bushes and shoot you. that thought doesn't enter your head at all. there are so many issues and questions that have been raised by this film that i wanted people to raise them. because i want to ask us who are we? who are we as a people. >> reporter: why do we do this? why do we shoot each each other like this. why is it one particular gender? and actually, when it comes to these mass shootings, why is it one particular race >> right. doesn't that go to the question, are you speaking and storytelling about structural problems or about the individuals. because charlton heston has come and gone, but the figures today are similar in our politics and culture who are defending certain gun rights regardless of

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what happens and regardless of any limitation. so do you see it as broader than the people who are filling those spots? >> it's both. it is a structural problem and there's a policy issue that we have to grapple with here to protect ourselves, to protect our society. but there's also -- let me put it this way. the short game here is we have to enact legislation as soon as possible to make it harder for people who are going to use these guns to hurt another human being. that we can do and we can do that with respecting the rights of people who hunt, who target shoot or who do believe they need protection. they can still have that. but the long game here is i think there's something fundamental we have to change about ourselves as americans because there's no way to explain this, as i said in the film. canadian kids watch the same violent movies, play the same

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violent video games. they watch all the american stuff up there. it is easily available this canada, and yet they don't kill each other. why is that? the canadians aren't better than us. i know some of them are watching right now. you're not better than us. we have the same 23 chromosomes in each of ourselves as human beings. so what is about americans that -- why do we do this? we're good people, so why haven't we fixed this? why are we so afraid that we need to arm ourselves like this? why do we first as americans think of resolving our problems through violence, whether it's personal violence, because as you know, so many murders are actually between people who know each other, spouses, boyfriend, girlfriend, neighbors, et cetera. why when we get into a fight or we get angry, why do we reach for the gun? they have a lot of guns in

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canada. hunting is their number one sport, more than hockey. there are more hunting rifles and shotguns in canada than there are hockey sticks in people's homes. i was just shocked at this because you could still kill somebody with a hunting rifle. you can take that into a school. again, it's not like they haven't had their school shootings. france has had it, norway had an awful shooting. there are problems in other countries, but it's not on a monthly basis or this past summer on a weekly basis or in one weekend this summer, on a day-to-day basis these mass shootings. so why us, ari? i really wanted to pose that question through this film for people to consider what is it that we have to change about ourselves? >> we'll be right back. as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks i can get. line? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. that's a lot of words.

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so why us, ari? so why us, ari there's a power in listening; it's what gives audible members an edge. it opens our minds, changes our perspective,

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only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ michael moore is back with us. the movie, as i mentioned, celebrated, embraced, and highly criticized. anyone who just watched it in today's context says. what did you aim to do, for example, the way that charlton heston was edited or the criticisms about accuracy. how do you address those? would you do anything different? >> no, not a single thing. the accuracy thing, the criticisms -- as we know, when they come from the right, they just make up stuff. and i learned a long time ago not to even bother with that. people who are more conservative than i am or who are republicans or whatever, i tried to explain this in the film. i won the nra marksman award

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when i was a teenager in boy scouts. i've said many times that i actually agree with the nra when they say guns don't kill people, people kill people. they've actually got it half right when they say that. guns cannot on their own kill a person. guns don't kill people. i think their slogan should be changed to guns don't kill people, americans kill people. that's really the difference. why do we do it? in israel there's guns everywhere. there's a continual war going on. they don't have school shootings. the kids don't take the guns into the israeli schools and just shoot them up. >> so wouldn't someone -- >> so why would we do it? >> your culture overlapse, which is don't overrestrict access. >> absolutely.

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i don't think it's just that. there is something in our american dna that makes us -- we're very afraid. we've been this way since the beginning. we were afraid of the native people when we came here. how did we resolve that problem? kill them. then we started to form a civilization here and we got afraid of the witches, so we hung women. there's this level of fear. part of the is we're really protected by two large oceans, so we haven't been invaded in the way other countries have. >> as you diagnosed that, is that where you leave it? or you diagnosing it driving towards a solution? because everyone reacts to you, michael moore, as having a very firm position. people opposite and support you for that reason. >> yes, and i wish -- i hope after watching the film right now that they will just think about some of the things that i've said in the film. and i say them as -- i remember i first shot guns when i was,

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like, probably 11 or 12 years old. me and the other boys in the neighborhood, we went out in the field in michigan and went bird hunting. when i think back now, i don't know what our parents were thinking let's go us go out there 11 and 12 years old shooting real guns. >> are you asking people to try to make our society just more gentle? >> yes, more gentle, more loving, more kind, more respectful, less afraid. i say this to guys -- i'm in -- i'm a white guy over the age of 50 upset a lot of the time and i have a high school education. so i am the trump demographic. so for the guys i grew up with and the guys i'm still friends with in michigan, what i try to say to them is you need to calm down a little bit. it's going to be okay. see, they know that the demographic is shifting. they see how many women are now coming into congress. they see that for eight years in a row now, this september we had

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the kids entering first grade in america, it's eight years in a row now that the majority of first graders are nonwhite. eight years in a row. so you know where this is going. they know where it's going. by the 2040s, white people thereby minority in this country. if you hang out in a bar in northern michigan, you will hear this talk, this fear of they, them, whoever is going to be in charge of this country and we have to keep our guns. part of it is an acknowledgment that we, we white people, white guys, know that a large number of people have suffered by us being in control for now more than a couple hundred years. it hasn't always been good for the the people who are not white guys, for women, for people of color, for immigrants, refugees.

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all this hate and anger toward people, i just want to say it's okay. it's going to be okay. nothing's going to happen to us when we're the minority. just look at south africa. that's what they said if anybody's old enough to remember. nelson mandela, they let him out of prison and he's going to be president. the white people were like, oh, my god, what's going to happen to us. what happened was there was reconciliation and there was reconciliation. >> dave chappelle talks about south africa and talks about other countries that have had very extreme racial controversies of which america has, although americans like to self-identify as saying we're maybe on the right track or not as bad as other places. i want to ask you, given your -- >> can i just say, just a nod to dave chappelle. in that same special that's out right now he says if we really want to get gun control

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legislation passed in this councamera and says i want ever african-american to go out tomorrow and legally buy a gun. >> dovetails with your point. >> in two days the headline will be millions of african-americans arm themselves. watch how fast congress passes gun control legislation. >> that goes to the final thing i wanted to ask you about. your political crystal ball, you're not a washington type, you're not a pollster type, but people remember that you said, based on your work and your life, that you saw donald trump surging in the midwest, that you thought he was going to win, you made a trump movie as well as this gun movie. when you apply your political lens to this issue, do you see gun laws eventually being passed? do you see gun control making progress in washington? we'll note it's been gaining ground in several states, which have fortified these gun control laws, but we haven't seen that change in congress. >> the 78% of this country that

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doesn't own a gun is going to demand it now, and we are going to get legislation passed. and it may not happen until we have the senate in the hands of the democratic party, but that legislation is going to get passed. it may take more action and activism. the parkland kids have led the way on this. listen to the children on this. they're the ones who have suffered through this. i believe that they will be effective. but i also want to say this. we started before the movie ran tonight. you asked me about the harsh images, the violent images in the film that might be shocking to some people tonight. we have to show -- you have to look at it. you can't look away. i think when we look away, when we stick our heads in the sand, no, you have to look. you have to look at this. you know -- >> and people are -- do you think people are going after the messenger if they have issues

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with you as a filmmaker or some people criticize the way the media covers this when what seems to upset people is being confronted with what's happening. >> yes. well, you really confront it when it happens in your town or school or your walmart. then it's right there. everybody, what do they always say afterwards, the parents, the victims? you know, i was one of those people that just said that happens somewhere else, until it happens in your town. i spoke to some of the parents at sandy hook in newton, connecticut. i said, you know, you've seen the crime scene photos. what if america saw those 20 6-year-old children, the crime scene photos show these children with half their face

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blown off, half their head gone. what if america was forced to look? because you, america, have not taken care of this problem in the way it's been taken care of in every industrialized democracy in the world. we have failed to do that. and now because of that, you have to look at this child who is no longer with us. and when you turn away from that photograph, that crime scene photo, tell me then that you're not going to do anything tomorrow to fix this. we can fix this. i'll say this to the gun owners from the 78% of us who don't own a gun. we don't want to take away your guns. we want you to hunt and target shoot. we believe in this amendment that exists in the sense that if there ever was a tyranny, you would want some way to defend yourself. we understand the concept of that. but we want you to relax a little bit. the access to the guns is the

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first problem we have to take care of. the second and most important problem is, we have to start taking care of each other and start loving each other. even when we disagree with each other, we need to say -- some guy was sitting next to me on the plane, he got to angry he asked to have his seat changed because he didn't want to sit next to me. i said, i'm sorry, i can move. i said, listen, we can make it through this flight. you and i may have our disagreements, but i bet you there's more things we agree on than we don't agree on. most importantly, you and i are both americans. we are all in the same boat. >> and the film is so arresting. but hearing you lay that out and push against what is often offered as a false choice, which is either you regulate guns or you deal with the rest of this picture, the society, the treatment, mental health, and those are separate things. what you're talking about, if people are listening to you, they might hear something different than what they would expect from, quote, unquote, michael moore. you're trying to tackle both in the film.

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>> yes. you brought up mental health. this is not a -- we do have a huge mental health problem in this country we have to address. this is not the mental health issue. that is not mental health. at sandy hook and newton, massachusetts, the killer was seeing two shrinks. his father was vice president of general electric. >> you can say it's the idea you have policy to deal with the weapons and policy to deal with the people. >> both. both have to happen. yes, we need mental health, better mental health care in this country and it needs to be paid for under a medicare for all program. but, but it won't go away, my friends. it won't go away if it's just let's just get rid of these guns. >> the film is bowling for columbine, michael moore, thank you for being here and thank you for watching. i'm ari melber, good night.

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a surprise attack on a sheriff's deputy takes an unexpected turn. >> i just snapped and i decided to choke out a deputy. >> a convicted rapist loses his

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tv Bowling for Columbine MSNBC October 19, 2019 6:00pm-9:00pm PDT

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