after them, even the city level they're going after them. >> thank you. we'll be reading axios a.m. in just a bit. you can sign up at signup.axios.com. that does it for this morning. "morning joe" starts right now. abuse of power is not a crime. let's fund meaamentally. >> they're trying to impeach a president in secret behind closed doors. >> and we're building a wall in colorado. we're building a beautiful wall. >> a quick fact check. richard nixon was looking at three articles of impeachment, including abuse of power. there was plenty of closed-door testimony during the benghazi hearings. >> constant, for years. >> and colorado does not share a border with mexico. good morning. >> but, it is going to be a beautiful wall and until is going new mexico is going to pay for it.

>> welcome to "morning joe," it's thursday, october 24'th. we have columnist and associate editor of the washington pot david ignatius. msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. and in new york, along with tv's own willie geist we have donny deutsch. and msnbc contributor mike barnicle. of course we're here in washington. elijah cummings's body is going to lay in state here at the capitol and there's going to be a service. >> there's going to be a service before and after that his body will lay in state before. and then the funeral tomorrow up in baltimore, president obama will be speaking at that. the clintons will be there and many others. >> we're here to honor him. >> a very sad day. willie, you remember a great man. i would tell you this morning, it was hard to get ready, hard

to hear alex's instructions because we had two kids chatting us up about their baseball team. david ignatius. >> oh, good lord. >> david ignatius and gene robinson. >> two kids is right. >> they were kids. incredible game last night and now, believe it or not, washington is coming home with 2-0 lead. >> it was a tight game, 2-2 verlander and strasbourg were shaky in the first inning but then settled down before the nats just erupted on them. they won the game 12-3. there's suzuki with the go-ahead run off verlander, that made it 3-2 and the flood gates opened from there. but the nationals, joe, have gotten through the two pitchers who have been unbeatable to a lot of other teams in both cole and verlander. now they come home having stolen

two games and they can win the worlder is vee world series, they've got a couple of chances do it on their home field this week. >> and gene robinson, all of these hits brought to you by bryce harper because he paid for this entire team. any home run you see, soto, look upwards to philadelphia and say, thank you, bryce, hope you're having a good off-season. >> i think i'll take juan soto. >> i think everybody would. >> this tem is incredible. this team has a pence for scoring with two outs, scoring late in the game so you never go to sleep, which i couldn't last night. and, it's -- it's just an amazing thing, you know. this city was without a baseball team. >> right. >> for many years. 33 years, i think. >> and for 33 years -- >> and before that had a lousy

baseball team. >> and for 33 years what did the sign say? bring baseball back to d.c., and day of ignatius, it is back. >> it's back and surging. i like the way that willie said the team erupted with runs. because they did. this team, as gene said, scores late in the game. gene and i are now talking bay sweep, a four-game sweep. >> that's so cute. >> let's play -- >> the atlanta braves went up 2-0 over the yankees in 1996 and i remember somebody -- somebody said, forget about the 1996 braves, let's talk about the 1927 yankees. that's how good this braves team is. and, of course, willie, they lost the next four games. >> all right. let's not jinx them. >> but in a washington where let's be honest, not a lot of

things are going right, it's great to have a baseball team that's playing and having fun. >> yes. >> the thing about this team is they have fun playing. >> because it's not a fun time here in washington. first, the real issues facing the president in defense that allegations that president trump froze $3911 million in military aid intended for ukraine in order to pressure it's government carry out investigations for his political benefit, trump yesterday in a tweet quoting republican congressman john ratcliffe wrote that neither ambassador bill taylor or any other witness has provided testimony that the ukrainians were aware that military haid was bei military aid was being held. you can't have a quid pro quo without a pro quo. >> where is the whistleblower? ted, donald, you are so

desperate. >> this is getting difficult to watch. >> and, you know, mika, house minority leader kevin what does he call him, steve? >> he calls him steve but he goes by the name of kevin mccarthy. >> steve made a similar argument on tuesday. >> they're claiming there's a quid pro quo with the president trump with the president of ukraine on july 25th. we now find from what they've said even in here, on august 29th ukraine found out that the money was being held up from "politico." >> you know, what's really interesting is these republicans aren't smart enough to wait 24 or 48 hours, because every one of their defenses crumbles as badly as houston astros' pitching in october. "the new york times," of course, reported that word of the freeze gotten to high level of ukrainian officials by the first week in august, according to

interviews and documents. they were told the problem was not bureaucratic and in order to address it they were advised to reach out to white house chief of staff mick mulvaney. the timing shows the ukrainians were aware the white house was holding up the funds weeks earlier than acknowledged. also it means that the ukrainian government was aware of the freeze during the period in august when rudy giuliani and two american diplomats were pressing the president of ukraine to make that public commit meant to t commitment to the investigations. and taylor said he was told by national security council aid that sondland directly communicated that quid pro quo to a top aide for the president -- the president of ukraine. >> meanwhile, the associated press reports ukrainian president zelensky was feeling

pressured by trump more than two months before their controversial phone call on july 25th. three sources tell the ap that zelensky gathered a small group of advisers on may 7th for a meeting that was supposed to be about the nation's energy needs. instead, the group spent most of the three-hour discussion talking about how to navigate the insistence from trump and giuliani for a probe and how to avoid becoming entangled in the american elections. >> you get it. >> good lord. >> this goes on and on and on. willie, there was a quid pro quo and it's so fascinating that these republicans, you've seen a different defense over the past month or so. they make a defense, it gets undercut by documents. they make a definite, it gets undercut by testimony. here it's very simple the president of the united states was withholding military funding. we saw that. we seen that in the testimony. and you really see it with

sondland in his conversation with taylor said, boy, i think i made a mistake. taylor said what? he said, well, i told them that we were only holding up the white house meeting until they publicly said they would be investigating biden in the 2016 campaign. taylor's like why is that a mistake? and sondland says, because it attaches to everything. we're not doing anything until they agree to publicly investigate biden in the 2016 campaign. this -- this is corrupt. they've got him nailed dead to center and there is nothing these republicans can do but come up with theatrical tactics to try to distract. which that doesn't work because we've still got the evidence stacked like this on the desk. >> yeah. and bill taylor understood everything to include military aid. that's what he mu that sondlakn

sondland was talking about there. if you go back to the retweet on fox and friends, he admits to withholding military aid. he put that out there in his retweet. but into the specifics of what happened here, donny, this just und undergirds everything else that we've seen. we've seen the 15-page statement, we haven't seen his deposition yet. we've seen the statement. what the "new york times" is reporting is that, of course, ukraine understand that this was a quid pro quo. of course they knew there was something on other side of the table that they had to do something in order to get the money and defend themselves against the russians. this lines up with everything we've seen in public testimony, in private documents that have been released. >> it's interesting, you really have gained set match now. the reason i bring that up, speed is important now. the one thing that trump does and the one thing in this 24/7 news psych that will we have that we didn't have in watergate

is there is this constant flood of information, of misinformation, of lies and twists. and the american public can get a little numb to things. we have it in a very tight box now. now, obviously nancy pelosi and the democrats have to do all their due diligence. but the faster they move, the tighter that box stays. second point also is when watching those republicans yesterday march those white guys, those middle-aged, boring, nerdy looking white guys walk down those steps was pathetic. and i challenge all of those guys two and three years from now, because they are living today, donald trump is going to be viewed very differently a few years from now. and i can't wait to be doing the campaign of anybody running against those guys to show these pathetic wienies walking down that step. there was a 1984 super bowl commercial for apple where they show these guys just marching in lockstep. how pathetic. willie and i were just talking

as men, how do you go home and look at your wife and children. just pathetic people. >> i think marc k is undecided the future race. but so many republicans who are blindly following donald trump out of loyalty will find a primary challenge in the next few years that aren't stained by the crimes, the misdemeanors by the dirty deals that helped vladimir putin and the russians, these defenses. they know that time is coming. but right now the main thing they want to do is just avoidancing questions about ambassador taylor's testimony. take a look. >> any reaction to bill taylor's testimony yesterday? >> haven't looked at it yet. >> well, i am almost late for my own hearing. >> i haven't read it. >> i'm sorry, i haven't gotten to it yet. >> any reaction to bill taylor's

testimony yesterday? >> i don't. >> i am just so busy. >> got to get to my hearing. >> you saw your job as being shill for donald trump, bill taylor's testimony would be the last thing that you would want to speak to. it was devastating and its impact still reverb ratineratin around the capitol and the world today. >> what's going on here? you rise in kiev and he realize that apart from the normal diplomacy that he's conducting there's this other irregular channel. and he begins through the summer to try to understand, what is this? so you go through his testimony and page by page he discovers more and more that this is essentially run out of the white house for the personal benefit of the president. he begins telling people, this is crazy. this is our ally. they're fighting a war against russia. he goes to the front and looks

at the ukrainians who are depending on our military aid. he writes to secretary of state pompeo his boss and says this is folly, what are you doing? and by the end of that testimony, you saw the mystery, you see what this is. this is president trump going after his own personal, petty, political interests. and you see the moral dimensions. this is betraying an ally who was counting on u.s. military aid -- >> by the way, an ally at its weakest state with vladimir putin invading the country. >> having gobbled up part of it and with people still dying. >> gobbled up part of it and people still dying and the threat of a further push west ward, they selected the weakest country they could select to try to find somebody to dig up dirt on joe biden. >> yeah. what taylor describes, i'm reading his opening statement is, as david said, it's like

riding story. it's like reading a novel unfold. you know, what he discovered was what john bolton reportedly called a drug deal. you know, this illicit transaction that the white house was trying to -- trying to impose on ukraine, it is -- it's a shocking thing. and you see all this flailing by the house republicans to react without actually addressing the substance because they're getting no direction from the white house. the white house has, you know, nothing to offer. it's only the president's twitter feed, which is insane. so what are they left with? >> the twitter feed is so erratic. the president has moved far past ever being able to sketch out any plan. he's beyond a day trader now. he's got mental eruptions himself, spasms of lieu sucidit

we are up in maine a couple months ago and we got a call from somebody who's worked in central and eastern europe a lot, knew your dad very well, and said, hey, you need to look into this. trump is holding up military aid to the ukrainians until they investigate joe biden. now, that word was around. an ap reporter had asked a question over a month ago that specific question. what's fascinating is that in a month's time we are now -- we now have the evidence to back up what everybody feared was the worst case scenario. it has happened. i must say, mika, shocking still that some republicans will still not step up to the camera and say, this is a disgrace and it

really endangers one of america's most important allies in central and eastern europe and it sends a terrible message across the globe and will damage -- damage our standing with allies for some time to come. >> that's -- that's where, i think, you know, the crux of the issue will be for years to come, mike barnicle. i mean, at this point, america is not an ally that can be counted on. we're not a good ally. >> no. and we've changed our role in leaving syria. everyone saw the videos of the american troopers in their vehicles, convoys being pelted by people. but with what yhat you were jus about is i think the most lethal thing yet that has happened to this administration and to this presidency. because what happened with bill taylor's testimony as both gene and david alluded to, it is, indeed, a story.

it's a story well told. it's a story well told by a man who took notes. and gene is absolutely right. the statement reads like the first chapter of a novel or a treatment for a movie. it has everything that the public can understand. it has good guys and bad guys. it has heroes and villains. and it has an ending that you can guess at but you kind of know where the ending is going. and it's easily understandable. and the problem for the republicans is that whenever they step up to defend the president or do absolutely goofy stupts t stunts the way they did yesterday following matt gaetz off the cliff down into the basement of the capitol basically trying to interrupt grand jury proceedings, that's basically what they were trying to do, something they would never do in ordinary life. when they do this, they fail to remember -- or maybe they do remember and they're too stupid to think about it, it's inevitable that the president

will do something or say something or something will be revealed within the next hour, the next day that will completely throw them back again. >> yeah. you know, as general mike hayden said about that stunt, not only did they make fools of themselves, they probably broke quite a few laws in doing it. >> yeah. still ahead on "morning joe" -- think about that, goes. a tale of two polls in the democrats race for president. >> joe biden had the lead according to new numbers yesterday, but a new poll just this morning shows elizabeth warren out front. we'll break that down just ahead. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> we have an active day in california. winds howling overnight. we have one new fire that's formed and potential for rapid fire growth. the fire that's formed in sonoma county overnight grew from nothing to 7,000 acres in no time at all. during the day today extreme risk for areas of southern california. 25 million people are included in these red flag hours outside

the mountainous areas out side of san diego. we'll watch that as we go throughout the next two days. dangerous times there in southern california. snowstorm in colorado from denver to pueblo. little shoveling before you head out the door and the some of that cold air is heading to areas down the south. this will be the next storm and it will ruin some weekend plans. for today, little bit of snow? north texas. here's the rain developing in oklahoma. dallas, you're dry dd. then tomorrow the rain moves into mississippi, tennessee, and then by the weekend saturday washout. the tennessee and ohio valleys, a lot of halloween activities and a lot of college football games will be dealing with a soak rain. east coast you get a good day on saturday because sunday here comes the rain for you. looks like the heaviest rain will be through areas of northern portions of new england

and from new york city northward it will be one to two inches of rain. east coast saturday good, sunday looks like an indoor umbrella type day. new york city looking for a perfect call day today. enjoy the outdoors if you can this afternoon. temperatures in the mid-60s with perfect blue sunny skies. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. es. you're watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. our every day diet is very acidic. it can cause damage to the enamel. with pronamel repair toothpaste, we can help actively repair enamel in its weakened state. it's innovative. with pronamel repair, more minerals are able to enter deep into the enamel's surface. the fact that you have an opportunity to repair what's already been damaged...it's amazing. i think my go-to toothpaste is going to be pronamel repair. i- [narrator] forget aboute vacuuming for up to a month. shark iq robot deep-cleans and empties itself into a base you can empty once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around,

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started a blog shared a picture shared a moment turn your wish list into a checklist. learn more. do more. share more. at home, with internet essentials. beautiful shot. >> welcome back to "morning joe." 25 past the hour. >> you know, mika, a lot of people have been thinking, as have i, that all of this ukraine -- this ukrainian affair would actual ly accrue to the benefit of donald trump's opponents but also of joe biden's opponents. we've had three polls out the last two days. one of them has elizabeth warren ahead, but, boy, the other two show a big joe biden lead. >> strong lead. the new cnn/ssrs poll shows joe

biden maintaining his lead in the race for the democratic presidential nomination. in that national poll, the former vice president is at 37% of the democratic and democratic leaning registered voters, up ten points. >> let's stop right there. >> since september. stop right there. >> stop right there. so let's go to donny deutsch said nobody in america. donny deutsch, up ten points -- >> wow. >> -- since the scandal broke. you just wonder if donald trump's attacks against joe biden are having the opposite impact on his campaign that democrats across america are thinking, this guy is so scared of joe biden that he's actually going to do illegal things and try to undermine american foreign policy to stop him. plus ten.

>> it clearly says, okay, wow, if trump is afraid of him, he must be the guy. but there's something else going on here also and mike and i were just talking about that. very thing that people hold against biden, you know, that it's kind of boring, he's a little old and this and that, where i'll call him neutral is a positive. every day that we live through this traumatic, ridiculous circus side show, putting uncle joe in there as opposed to going from radical to radical to elizabeth warren feels pretty good. neutral is okay. you know, he's not going to blow us up. he's been there nfor a long tim and i'll feel comfortable and safe. this is kind of a weird thing, it's like a comfortable shoe if you will. and the very thing people are worried about is a benefit here. the more the cirque kicus heigh up. >> even donald trump's supporters is are exhausted

built tweetby the tweets, exhausted from the radicalism, exhausted from him flipping from one issue to another to another and the constant attacks. you look at the south carolina poll yesterday from monmouth, your home state is saying joe biden way ahead, up 33% to elizabeth warren's 16%. >> yeah. i mean, in south carolina -- >> still way up. >> -- it always looks like a great state for biden. the peril for him is if he were to lose, you know, both iowa and new hampshire to warren, then people would be asking, you know, really does she have the momentum? but, i think there's another factor here. think warren's performance in the last debate and what a lot of people saw is her evasion on the question of raising taxes

for medicare for all. i think that even in a democratic party that's all in for universal healthcare, i think that's an issue. i mean, she says she's going to come out with a plan because she's got a plan for everything and i think she will. i hear that a lot from people. >> i've heard that the past week and i've heard people talking about the slowing of her momentum, but there is -- and i believe actually she is facing a challenge. she needs to make sure she doesn't fall off like kamala harris fell off after initial surge. she has to be concerned about that. but, a new q poll actually tells a completely different story. it seems right now to be a bit of an outlier. >> well, the new "q" poll shows elizabeth warren at 28%, seven points ahead of biden. biden sits at 21% in this poll, down six points since last week. while senator bernie sanders

rounds out the top three at 15%, up four points. mayor pete buttigieg is up two points. that guy keeps growing. now at 10%. senator kamala harris sits at 5%, up one. so, willie, there's a couple of things that play here. i do think there's a big question about how warren is going to pay for her plans and i think she's taken too long to answer it. it does not roll off the tongue easily for her. on top of it, the people who support joe biden, they want a good person in the white house with experience. joe has that, they know joe. they know his story. so when you go after -- when president trump viciously goes after joe biden's son, they take it personally. his remaining, surviving son. i think joe biden has an answer to the hunter question. it's the bottom line is, i'm running for president, not my son. and perhaps joe biden wouldn't have done what hunter did, but it was legal and it was investigated. i mean, these things are clear

for biden supporters to understand. and i would think they would take what president trump has done very personally. >> yeah, not just biden supporters, i would think voters among the democratic field who are making up their minds still look at and listen to the case joe biden has made about this entire ukraine story, which is that donald trump so fears me as an opponent, he so fears losing to me because i'm such a strong opponent that he went to a foreign nation, held up military aid and went through this entire story that we've been talking about now for weeks. mike, that's -- joe biden has said that outloud. he fears me because i will beat him like a drum. he's still leading in these polls. it's very tight in iowa and new hampshire, but there was a new south carolina poll has him down a little, warren up a little, but still up 17 points in that state also. >> if you set the polls aside, willie, i know you know this and donny knows this, we all know it. if you just talk anecdotally to people, they get what's going

on. they get the edge of the story. they understand the headlines, they understand bill taylor to a certain degree. they don't read the 15-page opening statement. but they know. and to -- for them to look at joe biden, you get the increasing conversation with people and at the end of the conversation they basically just want this thing calmed down. >> yeah. >> they want someone who will calm the situation down, get it back to a state of semi normalcy, if we can ever get back to a state of semi normalcy. and bide zen thn does that for o many people. mika just nailed it, when you talk to people about elizabeth warren, they like her plan. she has a plan for everything. but they inevitably end up saying how much is all of this going to cost in the public education aspect? the medicare for all aspect, how much is it going to cost? she has no answer yet. >> all right. we'll continue this conversation.

coming up, the president announces that he's lifting all sanctions against turkey despite the special envoy on syria saying he believes war crimes were committed. we will get david ignatius' take on that next on "morning joe." e on that next on "morning joe." at fidelity, we help you prepare for the unexpected with retirement planning and advice for what you need today and tomorrow. because when you're with fidelity, there's nothing to stop you from moving forward. we're reporters from the new york times. no flights. no roads.

we're trying to figure out what animals are being affected. galápagos is a really challenging place to work. el niño is starting to go haywire. everywhere is going to get touched by climate change.

the government of turkey informed my administration that they would be stopping combat and their offensive in syria and making the ceasefire permanent, and it will be, indeed, be permanent. however, you would also define the word permanent in that part of the world is somewhat questionable, we all understand that. but i do believe it will be permanent. i've therefore instructed the secretary of the treasury to lift all sanctions imposed. so the sanctions will be lifted unless something happens that we're not happy with. this was an outcome created by us, the united states, and nobody else. no other nation, very simple. and we're willing to take blame

and we're also willing to take credit. let someone else fight over this long, blood-stained sand. we've secured the oil and therefore a small number of u.s. troops will remain in the area where they have the oil. and we're going to be protecting it and we'll be deciding what we're going to do with it in the future. >> you know, david, i've often warned people that donald trump's trick is moving at such a rapid, erratic pace, throwing everything up against the wall, a bigoted comment, an ignorant comment, an outrageous, shocking statement that you really have to separate the signal from the ground noise. in this case, it all seems like ground noise, but for every move he's made, and he's moved at

such a rapid pace here, that it really is hard to keep up with it. but the consequences of every bad action, every bad deed are so consequential that i can't help but think that this is the gravest, most damaging decision made by any american president since george w. bush decided to go into iraq in march of 2003 chasing down weapons of mass destruction. >> joe, trump has folded what was a strong hand and a good alliance. and as i've said a number of times on the show, military effort in northeast syria that was working, that had defeated isis, that was very low cost, fewer than ten americans had been killed. president trump, for reasons that are still mysterious,

decided to put that aside. what in what we just saw he's dressed up in american retreat as if it's a success story. ease e he's given russia a win. he's given turkey a win. he's given the syria regime of assad a win. he's betrayed our allies who fought and died for us and made it all look like nothing happened here folks. >> and whoever the next prime minister of israel is going to be, they have to worry now about the iranians being free to have -- >> here's what they really have to deal with. so who is in the center of not just the military situation in syria, but the diplomacy? it's russia. russia talks to israel. netanyahu spends more time in moscow now than he does in washington. russia talks to iran. russia is the way that israel and iran are going to find someway to communicate through

russia talks to turkey, russia talks to the kurds, the turks' enemies. it's the kind of thing that had the united states at its best did in the meefiddle east a generation ago and it's now been taken over that whole role by russia. and trump acts as if nothing has happened. >> lays down all the cards. >> do you think he does not understand all of that has happened or he -- >> he knows -- >> he understands it but he doesn't care? >> all roads lead to russia. >> all roads lead to putin. and we can sort through all the documents we want to sort through and reread the supporting documents on the mueller report. all we want and say all of the things that they did were shady. but this evidence is just out in broad daylight. there are few things, if you ask vladimir putin at the beginning of donald trump's term, name two

things, the top two things if you had a lackey for you in the white house, if you had a useful idiot, what would it be? he'd say i want pressure after of me on ukraine because if i take over ukraine, if i pressure ukraine to gobble up more, then i cease being what obama called a regional power and i rebuilt the soviet union. the second thing, get me into the middle east. the soviets weren't in the middle east from 1973 forward. there is no way putin would have ever been able to get into the middle east and become the most important regional player except for a series of decisions by that man donald trump, that man who has had a bizarre relationship with vladimir putin ever since we asked him in december of 2015 why he respected a guy who killed journalists so much. but he has to know, he has to know. this is -- he has done more for

vladimir putin than vladimir putin could have done in a hundred lifetimes. >> and what about the side meetings with vladimir putin where, oh, whoops, there's no note taker. >> no note taker. >> i mean, i think we have to stop thinking that he's completely illiterate and wonder if there is a strategy here that is quite the opposite. >> as the russians like to say, objectively speaking, he's serving the interests of russia. >> he is serving the interests of russia. >> whether subjectively he sees it that way. so joe's absolutely right. if you were to make a list of what putin most wanted, the two things that we talk about now every morning, syria and ukraine. and in each case you have an american policy of undermining allies and squandering gains that have been won at great cost. and just to note a final point, of undermining the interests of our military. i mean, when admiral --

ambassador taylor talked about drawing that bridge and looking out and thinking about how the ukrainians who were not going to get american military supplies would die, that's a west point graduate speaking. that's a person who just feels in his gut the consequences of leaving our allies without military equipment, ammunitions, supplies, and it makes him sick. >> so why doesn't the other west point graduate get that? >> so the other west point graduate is our secretary of state mike pompeo. >> who is calling this whole thing a hypothetical whenever asked about it. he says i don't twooewant to en in hypotheticals. >> he's been the slient man. he's been the person people send memos to and nothing comes out. i've heard people recently as they listen to west point graduate taylor, look at secretary pompeo, remembering the west point oath, what cadets

swear they doll in their careers. and there's some phrases they use in addition to the honor code, that they will choose the hard right over the easy wrong. they say that to each other as west point cadets. and there are people saying, we're looking at our classmate, secretary pompeo, and wondering when he's going to choose the hard right over the easy wrong. >> and, willie, he breaks that out every day. he lies on tv. he leaves democratic allies abandoned. he plays dumb when confronted with a budding scandal that has grown up all around him. all roads may lead to vladimir putin as it pertains to donald trump's overriding policy, but in this ukrainian affair, all roads lead in and around the state department. and somebody that put country first would be out front calling

out the activities of all of these people that usurp the power of the state department, that have continually lied, that have undercut america's prestige across the globe. and yet pompeo chooses instead of following his oath to be nothing more than an ex-reality tv star's lackey. >> you'll remember how that call played out between president trump and president erdogan. president trump makes that promise unilaterally. mulvaney scrambles calling the defense department to announce this is happening, i know we didn't talk to you about this but the president made this promise. what you have is mike pompeo, defense secretary esper, others running in to clean up the mess to justify and racitionalize th decision. i would ask david one more time, the president trying to project

having control of this from the beginning, he said this was on our terms, america alone dictated this. meanwhile, president easy putin and erdogan were in sochi russia determining what was going to happen next. this was in no way president trump deciding what was going to follow after his decision. they are moving in and occupying this space. >> well, you put it just right. that is what they've done. they have taken sometimes literally the physical military positions and moved into them. but certainly they've moved into the diplomatic space. they are the people you've got to talk to. they are the deal makers. they have taken over essentially what was the american framework for how things would be organized and security terms in northwest -- northeast syria. it's now a russian production. so it's a transfer. we're out, they're in. >> they're in and they -- they made the announcement that they will be the ones clearing the area of our allies and they will be the ones, the russians and the turks, will be killing kurds

if they don't get out of their homes. >> still ahead -- go ahead, donny, real quick. >> make no mistake because it's toes forget. let's not forget it. this is all about failed casinos. he is owned by putin because he's been laundering money, russian money for the last 20, 30 years. he's owned by them. that's what this is. you talk to any banker in new york, any business person in new york, any real estate person in port, we have a president that's selling out our military that's costing lives because he is owned by our geopolitical enemy because he's been laundering money for him as a criminal organization for the last 30 years. that will come out in time. >> that is -- that is speculation and only speculation right now. i will say that it is speculation among new york bankers who have loaned donald trump money in the past and who have been following his business career for 30, 40 years. >> yeah. >> but i think we all will be absolutely fascinated when we

finally figure out what vladimir putin has on donald trump and why donald trump has surrendered the middle east, helped isis, helped iran, helped russia, helped turkey, helped all of our enemies and betrayed all of our allies. you know, a lot of people think that it's -- he has compromising pictures or something happened in a hotel in russia years ago. no. it goes back to money. it's always about money. donald trump -- who was it that said this weekend donald trump still sees himself as a developer, as a whatever? >> that was mick mulvaney. >> mick mulvaney said that. it's not about foreign policy, it's not about pictures putin has, it's all about money. and this president is selling not only america, but its most important allies down the river for money he wants to make either while in office or when

he leaves office, period, end of story. >> still ahead, republicans escalate the impeachment fight by storming a closed-door hearing in a stunt, i guess, designed to distract -- >> to break the law. general hadeyden, you're breaki the law here. >> i guess they want to distract everyone from the damming evidence from the president that we've been learning from the impeachment inquiry interviews. we'll spend a moment, just a moment on their staunch hypocrisy. >> benghazi. h hypocrisy. >> bghenazi. johnson & johnson is a baby company. but we're also a cancer fighting, hiv controlling, joint replacing, and depression relieving company. from the day you're born we never stop taking care of you. ( ♪ ) only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast,

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a house against committee tells nbc news more than two dozen republican members participated in the stunt. the testimony of laura cooper, the top pentagon official overseeing u.s. policy toward ukraine was delayed by five hours because of the antics. >> did they tell you that a lot of people have that have run the cia actually and the intel community said they actually broke the law doing that. >> i know. there are a number of things to point out about the tactic by this group of republicans. first, some of those republicans took their cell phones into the secure room known as a scif, which is not permitted. one house intelligence official tells nbc news some republican lawmakers refuse to comply with requests to remove those devices from the room. house homeland security

chairman -- committee chairman bennie thompson wrote to the house sergeant at arms yesterday calling for action against these gop members for what he called a blatant breach of security, which is what it was. second, gop members who don't sit on the committees that are questioning witnesses in the impeachment inquiry were many of the ones who occupied the secure room yesterday. house rooules only allow nobmem to participate in depositions if they serve on the committees holding the deposition. republicans know that. >> of course they do. >> darrell issa was kicked out after trying to crash the deputy siftion sidney blumenthal. issa remained inside the closed door deposition for about a minute before he was escorted out by the panel's chairman at the time trey gowdy. lastly, despite several

republican lawmakers compalestining that the privacog that it was so unfair, they had no problem when the closed door method was used in the benghazi investigation. the preference for private interviews over public hearings has been questioned. interviews are more efficient and effective means of discovery. interviews allow witnesses to be questioned in depth by a highly prepared member or staff person. interviews also allow the committee to safeguard the privacy of witnesses who may fear retaliation for cooperating -- >> i'm confused. >> or who's work requires -- >> these are republicans saying that this is important for -- this must have been like 30 years ago. >> yeah, no. the report goes on. the report goes on saying it allows them to gather information confidentially and more in-depth than the committee

rule hearings. thee little gu these little guys think there we're done. there's nothing more to say. what a bad act. >> the only thing i will say, willie, is that there were a good number of them who decided actually to humiliate themselves, break laws, expose themselves as being rank hypocrites in the hopes that they would stop the news, that they would distract from everything that donald trump has been caught doing. >> yeah. let's also point out that the day before this stunt yesterday, on tuesday, they went to the white house and met with trump and told them about their plan. they had a long meeting with him about the impeachment inquiry, said we're going to do this, boss. we're going to take care of you. i'm happy that we didn't hit this story until about 6:52 because all it is is a smoke screen, they're not arguing anything at all about the substance of ambassador taylor's testimony. and that's why they're doing this. they want to create some cloud around the investigation. as you say, it's routine for

these kind of interviews, thee depositions. i would also point out i think buzzfeed researched it first, that a group of the members who are in this posse that went to the scif were on the committees that could be in the room. jim jordan, for example, the ranking member on oversight. >> you got us. >> already had a seat in the room but still thought he had to storm it. >> i mean, yeah, we're going to storm the committee because they're not letting us -- oh, wait, congressman, you're on the committee. >> yeah. >> never mind, i'm still outraged. mike, come on. what a joke. >> it looks like one of the scenes, the crowd scenes in blazing saddeles -- >> it's just a bunch of white guys walking down the steps. >> looking dumb. michael joins us next. we'll be right back.

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of millions of americans during the recession. so, my wife kat and i took action. we started a non-profit community bank with a simple theory - give people a fair deal and real economic power. invest in the community, in businesses owned by women and people of color, in affordable housing. the difference between words and actions matters. that's a lesson politicians in washington could use right now. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message.

abuse of power is not a crime. let's fundamentally -- >> stay with me on this. every day it's another step closer to -- >> when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal. >> i mean, we have -- it's unbelievable. we have gotten already to this point where the republicans are stumbling over themselves. we've now gotten to the point where they're going on tv and

saying that abuse of power is not a crime, it's okay. what's a high crime in this -- >> get over it, joe? >> get over what? >> just get over it all, that's what they want you do. just get over it, america. >> but, willie, it is every day they come up with a defense. that night it crumbles into the sea. the next day they're busy little beavers and they're building their defense back up, whoosh, the tide comes in, knocks it away. i mean, they make fools of themselves. you know, it wasn't a quid pro quo. okay, it was a quid pro quo but there was nothing wrong with a quid pro quo and, by the way, they didn't even know about the military funding being held up. they didn't know about that until -- oh, wait. so now -- so when all of this comes out, then they go, oh, wait, we're going to break the law and we're going to storm secure locations. and it just continues. they keep hue millmiliating

themselves. they're acting like donald trump will be in office for the rest their lives. he just won't. i have to say, this moment when ever republican knows that donald trump is not mentally fit to be president of the united states, he's not temperamentally fit to be president of the united states, he is illiterate when it comes to the constitution, he is illiterate had it comes to american history, he is illiterate when it comes to america's history across the globe and our very special sitting place across the globe. you just have to start asking yourself, how much do these republicans hate mike pence? because this is not a choice between donald trump and nancy pelosi. it is not a choice between donald trump and elizabeth warren. it is not a choice between donald trump and, quote, fake news. this is a choice between having

a corrupt man who is not a conservative, a life-long democrat who has been caught just doing the worst things. and actually proclaiming that the second that article two gives him power, unlimited power to do whatever he wants to do. and, yet, they continue to stand steadfastly by him when it is so obvious he's not fit to be president of the united states. i just wonder why do they hate mike pence so much that they don't trust a guy who's actually been a conservative all of his life to actually run a sane white house? >> i was just going to say a guy who's been a conservative his entire life. if that's what you're looking for in your president. but it's not what they're looking for. they're looking for donald trump. they're looking for a fighter. but you ask somebody like senator lindsey graham who has been a conservative his whole life, what's in it for you as you call this impeachment inquiry a hoax or being done in secret in the basement of the capitol, what are you getting

out of this deal? first all of, you should be standing up for the country. but if you are standing up for yourself, what are you getting out of this deal beside i guess protecting yourself against the primary in south carolina, protecting your seat, is that all this is? is that all it's about? and if you look at that clip of matthew whitaker two nights ago, that's not just some panelist on fox news that. man was the acting attorney general of the united states of america saying, no problem, nothing to see here with abuse of power, nothing to see here with everything i've seen laid out before me in the public on this question of ukraine. that's the group of people supporting president trump and those are the people willing to put to test the fifth avenue example for donald trump. >> well, along with joe, willie and me we had -- >> by the way, again, his personal lawyer made the argument that he could, in fact, shoot somebody on fifth avenue and not be indicted. >> it's frightening. >> i'm saying --

>> it's a frightening exchange. >> but his lawyers -- it's just unbelievable. >> we can play that tape. columnist and associate of "the washington post," david ignatius is here with us on capitol hill. white house correspondent for pbs news hour, yamiche as well. and in new york, donny deutsch is with us. msnbc contributor mike barnicle. and also joining the discussion, we have managing editor at the washington examiner jay caruso. nbc news presidential historian and author of the book "presidents of war" michael had the and andrew is with us the good to have you all on board. >> you know, michael, it seems that we were in the summer of 1973 just a week or two ago and we've zoomed past august of '74. if you just look at when nixon resigned for the kids at home, you look at everything that's been laid out, they have now gone past where nixon was

straight to the david frost defense that when a president does it, it's not against the law. >> well, that's the amazing thing, joe, is that when nixon says when the president does it that means it's not illegal. you know, people might think that he said that during the throws of watergate. he said that years later to david frost, just as you're saying, showing that he didn't learn too much about the process of impeachment. and as for matthew whitaker's thing about abuse of power, seems to me that that was an article of impeachment for both bill clinton and richard nixon as well. >> absolutely. >> exactly. article three, nixon's article three refusing to produce the papers, substituting his judgment as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry and oppose the powers of the presidency against the lawful -- it just goes on and on. >> here's the clinton impeachment article for the president abused his power by refusing and failing to respond

to certain written requests for admission and willfully made perjurous, false, and misleading statements for requests for admission propounded to him by the committee. >> the difference in this, mike barnicle, in the impeachment coming of donald trump, both of these had to do with two presidents trying to protect themselves politically. of course richard nixon after the break-in watergate, bill clinton after perjuring himself about sexual harassment in a sexual harassment lawsuit. with dump, though, it takes don trump, though, it takes on geopolitical reverberrations

becau reverberations in a region of the world that's on a knife's edge right now. >> one of big questions that's going to need to be answer is the damage that he's done to our foreign policy in different regions of the world, can it be repaired? how long would it take to repair? i don't know. i don't know that anyone knows. maybe david ignatius could take a good crack at figuring that out. but there's also this issue that is portrayed nearly every day but was portrayed vividly yesterday with that assemblage of people in the basement of the capitol standing outside the grand jury room for all practical purposes, that's what it is trying to get in and ordering pizza and making a show of it. and it is this. there are nearly 300 republicans, maybe a few more in total in congress, 300 men and women who only a handful have ever spoken out against what's going on. that means nearly 300 elected officials representing the

united states of america, our country, don't have the character, the courage, or the confident in their own beliefs to stand up against a man, donald trump, who is totally ill equipped to be president of the united states and they know it. >> and, jay caruso, it is stag thaerg giv stagering that given all that's happened over the past month, you can count on one hand, maybe one finger the republicans that have come out and forcefully said, no, it's not all right for the president of the united states to use his position to get an ally, to get a foreign power to get involved and interfere in american elections. this president promised george stephanopoulos he was going to do it. he did it with ukraine. he went out in front of a bank of cameras and then asked china to interfere in america's 2020 election. marco rubio said it was a joke.

it was such a joke that when donald trump was asked a day later, were you joking? no, china' should do that if they want to do that. and, yet, by my count mitt romney's been the only one to come out and forcefully condemn. that action out of these 300 republican lawmakers. >> yeah, it's something. i just want to say briefly to david ignatius, as a long suffering yankees fan who's team hasn't won a world series in a decade, i'm enjoying watching the nationals beat up on the houston astros. back to the point joe was making, it is silly i think willie made the point earlier that donald trump is now he's talking about impeachment as, well, they can't beat me in an election so they have to impeach me. well, if you were so confident in your ability to win, why, then, would you need to go to a foreign power to ask them to dig up dirt on your political opponent? it doesn't make any sense. but that's what we're seeing now. you're right, mitt romney is the only one who has spoken up.

and of course now he's being tarred and feathered as some kind of traitor to the country, you know. i'm happy to be seated here amongst fellow human scum, just wa wanted to say that. >> wow, yes, and the language. gosh, the language. >> i told this story a few times. >> it's zblu btrue. >> but mika hasn't heard it in at least a week. i remember in 2005 a friend of mine was hearing me go after george w. bush every night on the debt, the deficit, and military adventurism. he called me up and started yelling at me and was taking the white house line. and i said to him, i said, you know, we've been friends for a while, you don't know this right now because you're in the middle -- you're in the -- you're on the spis ship. you thi

you think that george w. bush is going to be there forever. and you think that every loyal republican must snap and salute. i said i've got bad news for you. he's going to be gone soon, but i'm still going to be here. are we friends or not? there's silence on the line and he set, we're friends. and we have remained friends. and i never forgot that. but that mindset of these republicans that donald trump will be here forever and they will not be held to account is really -- it's destroying political careers as we speak. >> we saw these republican lawmakers assemble, and it is focused on the fact that they thinks these constituents of donald trump are going to be here forever. they think that the idea of the fact that the president has completely shifted what the meaning of the republican party was in most cases, that that idea is going to be here, that even long after president trump is gone that all the things he said, all his rhetoric, the way he's talked about trade, the way he's talked about immigrants,

all of these things, they're all going to remain and they'll have to pick up the ashes of what was the republican party and try to also try to run with those same voters. they want to show a sort of fierce loyalty that president trump demands. i think it's interesting that this happened the day and the same week that bill taylor testified, because i had democrats in the room telling me this is completely a sea change there are was completely a game changer. we might have to bring sondland back because he might have perjured himself. but i kept thinking what do the republicans think? yesterday i found out. republicans think that bill taylor was a bill deal because after bill taylor they said we need to stop this. this is too much is going on. i think that's a real big takeaway for me and what i've been hearing from my sources. >> willie, it's so fascinating that, you know, yamiche was talking about these trump supporters. you know where trump supporters are going to be after donald trump leaves? i mean, it's like they're going to be following the next boy

band. i mean, back street boys were big until the back street boys weren't big. >> whoa, whoa, they're still big. >> or insync, however they line up. i do know this, that serve so fiercely loyal to george w. bush, and i caught so much abuse for criticizing kborgeorge bush his spending and reckless foreign policy in hisecond term that it just -- it became heated. i had a friend who wasevangelic explain to his parishioners that you could be a christian and still not support george w. bush. george w. bush left and the fans just disappeared. >> lights out. >> and then they went on to the new boy band. and that's what they do. donald trump will leave, they will turn on him and if it's nikki haley who's the next republican nominee, suddenly

everybody will be huge nikki haley fans. >> yeah, and all these people in congress and others who think they're getting something out of this relationship with donald trump, maybe they're protecting their seats, i guess that's it. but you're right, this goes on. and by the way, donny was a big 98 degrees fan during the back street boys. >> he loved insync. >> there was this choice between insync and back street boys, you road the middle lane, 98 degrees. andrew, let me ask you about what's going on up on capitol hill because after this stunt yesterday, laura cooper did testify for three hours. she had to wait five hours while the republicans ate dominos and chick-fil-a in the chair where she was supposed to be. but what happens now? are the democrats compelled at all, maybe not by the case republicans are making, but by public interest to make some of this testimony public? we saw the statement from bill taylor, the 15 pages. but republicans are saying, hey,

we water to sought to see some deposition and any shot they provide that? >> it will definitely come in the coming weeks but we're still in the heat of the evidence-gather willing phase which is why these depositions as they've said has have to could be conducted behind closed doors. what was notable yesterday is she became the first pentagon torvel officially defy the trump administration's directives against testifying. of course, several senior state department officials have already defied those orders. and at least one former white house official fiona hill has also done that. next week we're going to get a new wave of depositions and we could see even more defiance of the trump administration's orders that really tied back to that white house counsel's letter a couple of weeks ago calling this impeachment inquiry completely illegitimate, constitutionally invalid, in their view, and that's the big story going forward here. the white house's impeachment blockade is starting to crumble and in the coming weeks once we

do get to public hearings, i think you can see that erode even further. of course impeachment's have to be a public airing of allegations against the president in part to bring the american public on board. so i think that's something that's really important for democrats to focus on and they intend to do that in the coming weeks. >> you're right, you're seeing something like bill taylor do some radical, answer a subpoena. we know the state department tried block his appearance. he was subpoenaed and he went. you're right. this letter that came out of the white house that said we will not cooperate, no one will cooperate, we won't give any witnesses, we won't give any documentation is beginning to crumble. >> that's right. and really republicans achieved their desired outcome yesterday with the stunt that they pulled in trying to storm the scif because instead of being pressed about the allegations that you mentioned that bill taylor levied in his deposition in which he essentially directly linked president trump to a quid pro quo with ukraine and of course the report yesterday that the ukrainians knew about the

withheld military aid months before initially thought, republicans instead were creating their own headlines and answering questions about that rather than answering the substantive questions about what was testified to behind closed doors. and i think that's going to be their strategy here in the meantime while democrats continue to hold these depositions behind closed doors. >> andrew, donny, i just want to push back a little bit. i don't think the republicans did themselves a disservice. they looked weak and pathetic and i think that image will show forever. yes, they distracted but it was not a shiny new toip, it was a dusty, dusty toy that distracted. i've never seen politicians look weaker or more pathetic and i think that image will stay with us for a long time. >> it's important to note, to your point, around 45 republicans in the house do have access to these depositions. these are the republicans who sit on the house against aintel

and foreign affairs. so the idea that they're being shut out from the depositions is not true. in addition to that, republican lawyers for each of those three committees get to question the witnesses, right? and some of the president's most loyal defenders take this mark meadows and jim jordan and lee zeldin have been in the room. you have the president's side at least being represented in the room for this evidence-gathering portion of the investigation here. >> all right. "politico's" andrew, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you '. >> and michael, we've been talking about how politicians, some republican politicians, most republican politicians have been hiding their head in shame and won't actually call what is right right and what is wrong wrong. but isn't it fascinating that we have had state department officials, career diplomats, people who have worked for both republicans and democrats alike who have dedicated their entire life to being diplomats and spreading the good news about

the united states of america across the globe, they are the ones at this critical time in history who have stepped up and been counted? >> that's right. and if you had to think of a believable witness, it's hard to think of someone who would fit that bill even more. and, you know, that scene yesterday, joe, for anyone complaining about someone who doesn't have a sense of history, didn't that look like something from the early 1800s when there was all those turmoil on the floor of congress and there were no canings or anything like that, thank god there was no violence, but it's almost as if we're returning full circle to those early days at a time of huge division in this country. >> jay caruso, what's next? what do you think the next move is for the republican congress here? do they keep circling the wagons

or do you expect more republicans to break off? >> i try not to play the prediction game anymore, considering how far offer i w in 2016. but at some point maybe when the public hearings start that you might see some more cracks. right now, i know mika has mentioned this, is that everything is about the process. all they're doing is complaining about the process. this is unfair. this is a star chamber. it's all being done in secret. the complaints are ridiculous, but it's having the intended effect of shifting the story around, the narrative around for their purposes to say this is just to feed into trump's narrative that this is nothing but a witch-hunt. but once more of this information is made public and you start to see these public hearings, we're already seeing polls that are above 50% for impeachment and some for removal, it could get a lot worse. i think that's the key issue is the polling if thpolling.

if you see that go up to 56, 57, watch out. >> when those numbers go up even hyper whether you see the independents especially breaking away from the president in higher numbers, that's when the pressure is felt. >> and, yamiche, those numbers have been steady rising. every week it's a couple of points up toward impeachment and also right behind that removal from office. >> and it's critical that the -- a lot of the movement's coming from independent voters. these are critical voters that are people who president trump would need to win a second term in office. but it seems as though the democrats' plan of really methodically going through and bringing testimony after testimony, witness after witness to capitol hill to say, almost the exact same thing, which is that the president's personal attorney was essentially running a shadow campaign and that president trump was trying to force another president to come to microphones and say i'm going to be investigating joe biden right before the election, essentially saying that the president would -- >> staggering. >> -- meddle in the 2020

election, that is really having an impact on the american people. that's why we're seeing those numbers go up. >> isn't it fascinating, david, that we saw in the documents this week, we saw in the testimony this week that there was talk between sondland and taylor, this talk about we're going to corner him. we're going to force him to make a public declaration -- >> make him pay. >> -- so he is cornered and make him pay, which goes back to donald trump going, yes, okay, okay, but you need to do something for me. and even before that conversation, they were just obsessed on making the president of ukraine pay with a public declaration that would box him in to investigate joe biden. >> they were treating him as an adversary in a business deal. the pettiness and personal quality to this, that's one of the most striking themes. one of the things we've been talking about in the last hour is the importance of moving,

now, to the phase of public hearings. we follow this stuff closely, you know, each day is revelations fit with the pattern that we've been examining. but for most of the country, this stuff is still kind of fuzzy. we have now hit a point where this will be on television. >> it's bad. >> -- and people will see it. i think it's going to be hard for republicans to defend what is essentially indefensible conduct. >> a blatant crime. >> these are not issues in question anymore, there are layers of act. we're watching the sun come up over the capitol. every time i look out at it, it's just i'm reminded this is the heart of who we are. >> it's precious. >> and in this building they're goi there are going to be hearings that take this story to the country and the that's where it begins, i think. >> all right. thank you all for being on the show this morning. >> thank you guys so much. still ahead, democratic

congresswoman jackie speier is standing by. she will weigh it in on how antics from republicans yesterday affected the testimony. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." stimony. that's straight ahead on "morning joe."

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okay. so, welcome back to "morning joe." if you hear something behind us, that's him. we're live on capitol hill. and we're here today, of course, to honor our good friend elijah cummings and to talk about everything that has gone down here in washington over the past 24 hours. it's been a crazy day of news. joining us now, member of the house intelligence and oversight and arms services committees, democratic congresswoman jackie speier of california.

it's great to have you on the show. thank you so much. >> great to be with you. >> obviously we're saying good-bye to a great man, i think it's also the way we want to honor elijah is also so connected and so symbolic to the challenges we are facing today. you're on oversight. what are you most focused on? what are the next steps as we try and close in on what is happening in washington and what exactly will be the question of impeachment with this president? >> well, the oversight committee has been focused on all the corruption in this administration. but we have also been painfully in a position of not being able to access the information we need because there's been such a resistance to giving us documents that we need to do our jobs. >> i mean, it really does seem like it's a loophole almost. >> it is. >> that there isn't an answer when you have accomplice sit congress in some ways and white

house that just says no. it seems like this is one area that we are not prepared for. so what's the answer? >> well, the answer is this is -- we've never had a president like this before, so the laws that we've had on the books have oftentimes been appropriately responded to. clearly he looks at every le loophole and says we have to close those. if a staff member, a federal employee refuses to meet with congress, they should be in a position where they lose their salary for a period of time. >> right. >> we should use inherent contempt, which we haven't done, which would bring people to the house floor. they could be questioned there and then if they don't comply. >> inherent contempt, what is that? what does that -- how do you pull that trigger? >> well, it's done very simply by the house taking action to hold someone in inherent contempt. was used over a hundred times in the last two centuries. but we haven't used it here

since 1935. >> would that solve the problem of the lack of access to information, people, and answers? >> i think that money always solves problems, doesn't it? if you're losing your salary or being fined, then there is a >> david. >> congresswoman, a federal judge has just ordered this week that the administration produce documents that you've requested within the next 30 days, i believe. do you think to get all the information you need to make the case to the american people about the president you're going to need additional litigation to compel production of witnesses, documents, or do you think you've got enough? >> i think we're close to having enough. you know, it's ironic that mr. volker had his private phone with his text messages on whatsapp which he provided to the committee which provided really substantial corroboration for what we needed.

i think ambassador taylor has done a very good job of dotting the is and crossing the ts. his testimony was so compelling. so we probably should seek additional confirmation, but, frankly, i think we have enough. >> ha about john bolton? john bolton is the person who is watching this and clearly was appalled by what he was seeing. how do you get john bolton to tell the country what he knows? >> well, you can subpoena him. we haven't made that decision yet. but i think his testimony could be very compelling. i think people who have been part of the apparatus for a long period of time and have watched this president in action are truly shocked by the irrelevant reverence to the rule of law. >> yeah. yeah. willie geist has a question for you from new york. >> hey, congresswoman, good to see you this morning. as you know because you were in the room, republicans walked in on the scif yesterday, many of them with their phones out. we can put that stunt to the side for a second, but let me

just take their criticism that this entire operation is being conducted in secret, that it's being done in the basement, as they say, which is where the scif is, that's why you're doing it in the basement. but can you paint a picture for our viewers of what it's like inside the room? who's in the room? who gets to ask questions to sort of maybe demystify a little bit the process? >> so what happened yesterday was a high school prank by a bunch of 50-year-old white men. and it failed. the idea of walking back into the room after five hours and seeing these boxes of pizza -- pizza boxes there was pretty stunning. what that committee room normally looks like is a typical committee room in which both republicans and democrats are given the opportunity on an equal basis to ask questions. an hour on the democratic side, an hour on the republican side, and then 45 minutes on each

side. mostly done by staff attorneys and then by members afterwards. but it's a very fair process. and one that the republicans should be applauding as opposed to whining about. >> so republican leaders are free to ask questions as they like? they're free to go back and leak -- not supposed to but leak to the president and their caucus as they like? you're not shutting republicans down inside that room? >> no, no, absolutely not. there's three committees that are in this process right now in that room. so there's about 122 members of the house that have access to that room to participate in the proceedings. and the fairness is, i think, something we should be applauding. the republicans are whining because the president is whining. and, frankly, i think they did what they did yesterday because the president was whining that they weren't fighting for him hard enough. >> yeah. congresswoman, you're in the armed services committee.

there's been a serious of mercurial decisions made by the president of the united states that has involved troop movements, troop withdrawals from northern syria that rattles the nature of troop movements in the middle east, american troop movements. do you get any sense from the pentagon, from people below the chairman of joint chiefs of staff, from colonels, people in charge of platoons, any sense of concern about what this is doing both to the morale of the american military and the idea of forced protection in the middle east for these withdrawing troops to various regions? >> well, i think the actions that the president took relative to syria are a colossal mistake. and while i haven't been able to talk to any of our troops, when they were leaving in their convoys they were being pummelled by rotten fruit by the

kurds who rightfully felt that they had been abandoned by the united states after they served shoulder to shoulder and lost 11,000 of their kurdish fighters in our efforts to try and put down isis. so, it's a colossal mistake. >> congresswoman, donny deutsch. one more behind the scenes. we see these congressman making these ridiculous white boy stunts. is there ever a behind the scenes where you turn to them and guy go, guys, come on. when the cameras are off and nobody's politicking, what percentage of these guys are i don't want to say in on the joke but understand that this is something that is beyond the pale and that secretly they want this guy gone? >> you know, donny, some of the members that were down there were friends of mine. i've worked closely with them. i was really appalled at the chanting and the loud accusations. there were a couple when i took

them aside, you know, they rolled their eyes a little bit. but it's surprising what the herd instinct does to people. i thi it was in full display yesterday. >> congresswoman jackie speier, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. up next, we'll be joined by a republican congressman for his take on the impeachment inquiry. congressman french hill will be our guest on that. and the testimony from facebook ceo mark zuckerberg during a separate heated hearing on capitol hill yesterday. that conversation is next on "morning joe." conversation isn "morning joe." welcome to fowler, indiana. home to three of bp's wind farms. which, every day, generate enough electricity to power over 150,000 homes. and of course, fowler.

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on to your policy, using census data as well, could i pay to target predominately black zip codes and advertise them the incorrect election date? >> no, congresswoman, you couldn't. >> so you will -- there is some threshold where you will fact check political advertisements,

is that what you're telling me? >> well, congresswoman, yes for specific things like that. >> would i be able to run advertisements on facebook targeting republicans and primaries saying that they voted for the green new deal? i mean, if you're not fact checking political advertisements, i'm just trying to understand the bounds here. >> i don't know the answer to that off the top of my head. >> do you see a potential problem here with a complete lack of fact checking on political advertisements? >> i think lying is bad and i think if you were to run an ad that had a lie that would be bad. >> so you won't take down lies or you will take down lies? i think it's a pretty simple yes or no? >> facebook ceo mark zuckerberg faced lawmakers on both sides of the aisle yesterday as he tried to reassure them the benefits of the planned digital cryptocurrency. joining us now, member of the republican leadership team for the house committee on financial services, congressman french hill of arkansas. thank you very much for coming

on the show this morning. >> congressman, thank you for being here. you know, facebook, to me, always seemed like a pretty harmless thing. i just needed to monitor my kids, right? >> and your pets. >> and your pets. >> share pictures. it's so fun. >> and, you know, post 2016 there's been a closer focus on it. but what's crazy is we found out the russians were trying to influence it and sheryl sandberg and others were trying to suppress that information when whistleblowers would come up they would try to suppress information. and now it's where over 50% of americans get their news. we regulated like cbs when walter cronkite told us the way it was. we regulated. at what point do we finally regulate this company because, again, they control over 50% of the news feed in america. >> well there is why he's a

regular on capitol hill now. he was back after an 18-month absence. i found him more humble, more willing to answer questions and have discussion. of course he came to house financial services to talk about their proposed cryptocurrency. >> right. >> where 2 billion people using facebook would have access to a facebook currency for making payments. >> which is getting hammered right now in europe. they're battling that everywhere. >> he made a commitment yesterday, which i thought was good. he made it after the g7 meeting last week and to america yesterday that he would not implement -- facebook would not participate in libra until it had the full regulatory approval of the united states and he would not implement it anywhere. and he answered a question from my friend bill, in fact if we don't approve it then i guess we might have to pull out of libra, what i don't think is their intent. >> let me ask about the underlying question that so many people are concerned about, not just aoc but a lot of my conservative friends concerned about the fact that -- and you

should be concerned and anybody running for office should be concerned that facebook will gladly take anybody's money if they run political advertisements against you that are lies. >> right. that's the issue. i thought fact checking came up on both sields. you saw aoc on your video clip, but it came up on the republican side yesterday as well. that's why think you'll see them back before energy and commerce. what kind of company is facebook? how do you deal with their buying power? their monopoly power in that arena? is it a media company? is it a messaging company? it will be a money transfer company? and this is what's going through. when you have innovation, which i don't think anybody in congress wants to block, innovation or america being the leading place to develop, technology companies including that on social media, but there's a clearness on what is transparency and what's the oversight and how does it fit into american business, american society, american regulatory

structure? those are precisely the questions we were getting at on the idea of a digital currency. >> we look at -- still look at the internet. we still look at facebook. we still look at twitter and other social media platforms. somehow living in their own domain. >> yeah. >> that somehow the rules that apply to the rest of us, the rules that apply to other broadcast outfits, the rules that apply to other businesses somehow those rules don't apply to silicon valley. when's that going to change behind us on the hill? >> i think it is changing. i think you're seeing the judiciary committee, house financial services, energy, commerce, i think you're beginning to see that. they're grappling with what steps do need to be taken? i asked mark zuckerberg yesterday about privacy. i believe in a future digital world where we have digital commerce that we own our data and that we give our data to people for a specific purpose, a health purpose, a financial services purpose.

george gilder's written a great book about this called life after google because it's not just social media, it applies to the internet service providers and he did not really answer my question. he dodged that question about your right to control your data as your private data that then you allocate to people for a specific purpose. >> congressman, after what you heard from mark zuckerberg yesterday and your other inquiries, do you feel that our elections are safe as we head into 2020 from the kind of manipulation that we saw for years ago that we're still reeling from? what's your feeling about that? >> i think congress has appropriated money for election security. i think there's likely as we go through the spend process this fall we may get more money for our states to make sure they boosted their election security. i think the discussion we're having today about transparency on social media about the rules governing political speech, we want free speech protected but i think americans want know that

they've just seen an ad and that the ad is paid for by a group or by a candidate and that they can make up their own mind about it. i do think that in his op-ed, zuckerberg tried to give voice to that. they have a new rating system on their ads and you can see certified slips up when you see an ad appear on your facebook feed. so i would say they're making an effort to be in the right direction, to be more transparent. but are they? >> what about the last ten days of your campaign to say -- to put up phony documents and say that you are a member of communist party when you were in college. >> right. >> and we know how these campaign goes. i mean, jeb bush was beaten in his first campaign for governor in '94 because lawton childs did phone calls the last two nights saying he was going to cut social security. as a governor couldn't do it. but if i decided to run against you, the last three days i'd

just -- i'd actually flood facebook with a million dollars worth of online ads saying that you're a communist and i have the documents and i'm -- under these current guidelines, i could do that guidelines i could do that and you probably would lose. >> and the difference between that and the world we grew up in, in media or even cable, is they couldn't have that many ads inserted on a broadcast venue or possibly even on cable. >> so doesn't that need to be regulated. >> i think it needs to be looked at, i do. >> don't you think republicans are making a mistake at looking right now, oh, these are the democrats complaining about it? they weren't always -- >> i didn't see it just for them. i saw both sides complaining about the rating sometimes if you want to call it that, how it is screened. people are protective of political speech. zuckerberg made that very clear. he wrote an article about it. i think we should be sensitive and hold true on free speech, but we want to make sure something is not done by a bot

or undetected issue or undisclosed issue let's turn to the events of last week. bill taylor's testimony obviously disturbing. what is your reaction? >> bill taylor is a distinguished diplomat and fine guy. he clearly differed with foreign policy by the white house. he made it clear in the 15-page opening statement. what we don't have as republicans is the give and take you have and an open hearing process. yes, i have seen your show today. i know we have republican members on the committees questioning, but i think -- you go back to your judiciary committee work during the clinton days, i believe the speaker should have declared an inquiry, had the judiciary committee begin to hold hearings. those hearings could have been closed if necessary, but nothing is classified about what is being asked. >> for you the procedure is you want the vote to begin the inquiry, and then a lot of

hearing are obviously done. >> that's what was done in nixon and in clinton. i think it would have been better. you can still close hearings or have confidential witnesses, but it gives the appearance you're cherry pickings. the news we get is essentially from a source in the room, a leak, it is not fully both sides. it is spin on both sides and it is not on c-span. >> there's a lot of discussion by republicans, if there's any discussion, about process. can i ask you about the basic information that we know, that the white house has released, that mick mulvaney has corroborated, that bill taylor laid out in his opening testimony that he read. does it concern you, weihat is contended that the president did, to shake down a foreign leader for dirt on a political rival? >> i will say this. during 2014 congress passed a

law to deal with corruption in ukraine and before aid was extended to certify they were dealing with corruption because before this most recent election there was no more corrupt government. in fact, it was said in my visits to government there was not even a government. >> which is why biden went over with the message. >> so, number one, corruption was rampant, during the 2016 election they were corrupted. i think people want to get behind what was the corruption in 2016. number two, we have a statutory that we have given ton the president to certify they're doing better on corruption. that's not uncommon on foreign policy. that's the big picture view. what bill taylorwere the nuance proper aspects of it, who was involved in it. i think that's what ought to be

in a fair, open hearing, and for the public some see. >> congressman, i think what seemed to offend ambassador taylor the most and his salient point in this is that in the president's efforts to pressure ukraine, military aid was withheld to people who are on the firing line with russia. i wonder on that particular issue whether that troubles you. >> well, i will say this about that. first, we had no ambassador to even negotiate for -- with the eu to press ukraine for reform. president trump appointed ambassador volker. i thought it was a good move to have our voice at the table on trying to improve the situation in ukraine with the eu. secondly, it was president trump that armed the ukrainians after president obama not agreeing to give lethal aid to the ukrainians. >> but then withheld that very aid which congress voted -- >> that you all voted for. >> we did. >> congress voted as part of

u.s. policy, bipartisan, that aid was withheld for what appears to have been specific political reasons. >> and that's what we're trying to get to the bottom of, but the aid was released, too, in september. the way i took bill taylor's discussion was it was the full discussion from his point of view, with his perspective, with the information that he had from may until august about what was happening about that. that's unclear to me because i have is bill taylor's testimony. i would like to hear everyone. >> more to come on that, of course. >> be great to hear from the secretary of state. >> there will be more testimony. i'm sure we will be talking about this for some time. why don't we end on the important question to you. how are the razor backs doing? >> they're awful this year. go hogs. i have faith, i pray every night but i say to my friend willie geist in new york, vanderbilt won at homecoming so that was best news of the week. >> love that.

>> all right, congressman. great to see you. >> thank you very much. still ahead, president trump tweeted yesterday that ukraine wasn't aware that military aid was being withheld, but new reporting by "the new york times" claims that statement just isn't true. plus, we will be join by house majority whip james clyburn and senator and member of the foreign relations committee jeanne shaheen. you are watching "morning joe". we will be right back. "morning joe" is sponsored by -- sleep inn. dream better here. sleep inn. dream better here. rewarding yourself, our business is you. book direct at choicehotels.com

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so abuse of power is not a crime. let's fundamentally boil it down. >> they're trying to impeach a president in secret behind closed doors. >> and we're building a wall in colorado. we're building a beautiful wall. >> okay. so a quick fact check to start the morning. richard nixon was looking at three articles of impeachment

including abuse of power. there was plenty of closed door testimony during the benghazi hearings. >> constant, do you remember that? for years. >> all the time. colorado does not share a border with mexico. >> but, it is going to be a beautiful wall. >> good morning. >> and new mexico is going to pay for it. >> well, in a way. welcome to "morning joe". it is thursday, october 24th. along with joe and me here on capitol hill, we have columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" david ignatius. pull itser price winner columnist and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson, and in new york along with tv's own willie geist we have donny deutsch. msnbc contributor mike barnacle. of course, we are hearing in washington. >> yes. >> elijah cummings' body is going to lay in state here in the capital. >> yes, and there will be a service before, and after that his body will lie in state here

before. and then, of course, the funeral tomorrow up in baltimore. president obama will be speaking at that. the clintons will be there and many others. but, willie -- >> we're here to honor him. >> we're here to honor him. a very sad day obviously to remember a great man. i will tell you this morning though, it was hazard to get ready, hard to hear alex's instructions because we had two kids chatting us up about their baseball team. >> oh, no. >> david ignatius. >> oh, good lord. >> david ignatius and gene robinson, they were kids. incredible game last niechlt belie night. believe it or not, washington is coming home with a 2-0 lead. >> incredible. nobody saw this coming. the astros prohibitive favorites, 14 games better in the regular season than the nationals. it was a tight game, 2-2.

verlander and strasbourg with striky in the fir shaky in the first inning. they won the game 12-3. this made it 3-2 and the flood gates opened from there. you are right. the nationals now, joe, have gotten through the two pitchers who have been unbeatable to a lot of other teams in both cole and verlander. now they come home having stolen two games, and they can win the world series, they have a couple of chances to do it, on their home field this week. >> gene robinson, all of these hits brought to you by bryce harper because he paid for all of -- he paid for the entire team. any home run you see. >> yeah. >> -- look upwards to philadelphia and say, thank you, bryce, hope you are having a good off-season. >> i think i will take juan soto. >> i think everybody would. >> absolutely. >> this team is incredible. this team has a penchant for

scoring with two out. this team has a penchant for scoring late in the game, so you never go to sleep, which i couldn't last night. it is just an amazing thing, you know. this city was without a baseball team for many years, 33 years i think was the gap. >> and for 33 years -- >> before that, a lousy baseball team. >> 33 years you would watch football games with the redskins and what did the sign say? bring baseball back to d.c. david ignatius, it is back. >> it is back and it is searching. i like the way willie said that the team erupted with runs because they did. this team, as gene said, scores late in the game. you know, gene and i are not talking about a sweep, a four-game sweep. >> oh, my, that's so cute zb. >> let's play -- >> the atlanta braves went up 2-0 over the yankees in 1996,

and i remember somebody, somebody said, "forget about the 1996 braves, let's talk about the 1927 yankees." that's how good this braves' team is. of course, willie, they lost the next four games to the yankees. >> all right. let's not jinx them. >> no, but in a washington where not a lot of things are going right, it is fun to have this team. >> we will get to all of the antics and stuff going on, but first the real issues facing the president. in defense against allegations that president trump froze $391 million in military aid intended for ukraine in order to pressure its government to carry out investigations for his political benefit, trump yesterday in a tweet, quoting republican congressman john radcliff, wrote

that neither ambassador bill taylor or any other witness has provided testimony that the ukraines were aware that military aid was being withheld. you can't have a quid pro could with no could. >> congressman john ratcliffe, "fox & friends", where is the whistle-blower? the do-nothing democracs' case dead. they're so desperate. >> this is getting difficult to watch. >> you know, house minority leader -- what does he call him? >> he calls him steve but he goes by the name of kevin mccarty. >> steve made a similar argument on tuesday. >> they're claiming there's a quid pro could with the president on a phone call with president trump with the president of ukraine on july 25th. we now find from all of what they have said in here, on august 29th ukraine found out that the money was being held up from "politico." >> you know, what is really interesting is that these

republicans aren't smart enough to wait 24 or 48 hours because every one of their defenses crumbles as badly as houston astros' pitching in october. "the new york times," of course, reported that wortd of the freeze had gotten to high level of ukrainian officials by the first week in august according to interviews and documents obtained by the paper. according to "the times" the ukrainians were told the problem was not bureaucrat and in order to address it they were advised to reach out to acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney. they point out the timing is that the white house was aware they were holding up the funds weeks earlier than acknowledged. it means that the ukrainian government was aware of the freeze during the period in august when rudy guilliani and two american diplomats were pressing the president of ukraine to make that public commitment to the investigations. according to act ingham bass

door bill taylor's opening statement in his testimony before impeachment investigators, taylor said he was told by national aid that the quid pro quo was communicated to the president of ukraine by a top aide. >> meanwhile, the associate press reports ukrainian president zelensky was feeling pressured by trump more than two months before their controversial phone call on july 25th. three sources tell the ap that zelensky gathered a small group of advisers on may 7th in kyiv for a meeting that was supposed to be about the nation's energy needs. instead, the group spent most of the three-hour discussion talking about how to navigate the insistence from trump and guilliani for a probe and how to avoid becoming entangled in the american elections. >> you get it. >> good lord. >> it goes on and on and on.

willie, there was a quid pro quo. it is so fascinating that these republicans, you have seen a different defense over the past month or so. they make a defense, it gets undercut by documents. they make a defense, it gets undercut by testimony. here it is very simple, the president of the united states was withholding military funding. we have seen that in the testimony. you really see it where sondland in his conversation with taylor said, boy, i think i made a mistake. taylor said, what? he said, well, i told them that we were only holding up the white house meeting until they publicly said they would be investigati investigating biden and the 2016 campaign. taylor said, why is that a mistake? sondland says, because it like attaches to everything. we're not doing anything until they agree to publicly investigate biden and the 2016

campaign. this -- this is corrupt. they've got them nailed dead to center and there's nothing these republicans can do but come up with theatrical things to try to distract and of course that doesn't work because we have the evidence stacked like this on the desk. >> yes, and bill taylor understood everything to include military aid. that's what he knew sondland was talking about there. if you go back to the original retweet of president trump, by the way, of congressman ratcliffe on "fox & friends", he admits to withholding military aid. he put it out there in the retweet. in the specifics of what happened here, this just under girds everything else we have already seen. we have seen the summary of the phone call. we saw the whistle-blower report. then we have ambassador taylor's full 15-page at the same time we have all seen. we haven't seen his deposition yet. we have seen the statement. what "the new york times" is reporting is, of course, ukraine understood was a quid pro quo.

of course they knew there was something on the other side of the table in order to get the money and defend themselves against the russians. this lines up with everything we have seen in public testimony and private documents that have been released. >> you know, it is interesting. you really have game, set, match now. the reason i believe that up is speed is important now. the one thing trump does and the one thing in the 24/7 news cycle we have that we didn't have in watergate is there's a constant flood of information, of misinformation, of lies and twists, and the american public can get a little numb to things. we have it in a very tight box now. obviously nancy pelosi and the democrats have to do all of their due diligence, but the faster they move the tighter the box stays. second point, when watching the republicans march, those white guys, those middle age, boring, nerdy-looking white guys march down the steps was pathetic. i challenge all of those guys

two and three years ago from now because they're living today, donald trump will be viewed differently a few years from now. i can't wait to be doing the campaign of anybody running against those guys to show the pathetic weenies walking down the step like lemmings. >> so silly. >> there was a commercial that showed these guys walking in lock step. willie and i were talking, how do you go home as men and look at your wives and children? pathetic, pathetic people. >> still ahead on "morning joe", to paraphrase one republican lawmaker, gee, would you look at the time. members of the gop are asked about the damaging testimony concerning the president but coincidentally they had all of the other places they needed to be and couldn't talk about it. >> interesting indeed. >> you are watching "morning joe". we will be right back. ♪ i was born in a small town ♪ and live in a small town liv♪

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so many republicans right now who are blindly following donald trump out of loyalty will find a primary challenge in the next few years that aren't stained by the crimes, by the misdemeanors, by the dirty deals that help vladimir putin and the russians, these defenses. they know that time is coming. right now the main thing they want to do is just avo avoid answering questions about ambassador taylor's testimony. take a look. >> any reaction to bill taylor's testimony yesterday snl. >> haven't looked at it yet. >> i am almost late for my own hearing. >> but the opening statement -- >> i haven't read it. >> i have to be in the committee. i'm sorry. i haven't gotten to read it yet. >> any reaction to bill taylor's testimony yesterday? >> i don't. >> i am just so busy. >> if you were a shell for --

>> i got to get to my hearing. >> if you saw your job as bill shill for donald trump, bill taylor's testimony would be last thing you want to speak to. it was devastating and its impact is still reverberating around the capital and world today. >> bill taylor told this as a story. it was his own investigation. what is going on here? he arrives in kyiv and he realizes apart from the normal diplomacy he is conducting there's this other irregular channel, and he begins through the summer to try to understand, what is this. so you go through his testimony and page by page he discovers more and more that this is essentially run out of the white house for the personal benefit of the president. he begins telling people, this is crazy. this is our ally. they're fighting a war against russia. he goes to the front and looks at the ukrainians who are depending on our military aid. he writes to secretary of state pompeo, his boss, and says, this

is folly, what are you doing? by the end of that testimony you saw the mystery. you see what this is. this is president trump going after his own personal petty political interest and you see the moral dimensions. this is betraying an ally who is counting on u.s. military aid -- >> by the way, an ally at its weakest state with vladimir putin -- >> oh, my gosh. >> -- invading the country -- >> vhaving gobbled up part of i. >> having gobbled up participate of participate -- part of it. >> and people still dying. >> and they selected the weak eweakest country to dig up dirt on joe biden. >> as i'm reading his opening statement, like david said, it is like reading a story, a novel unfold. you know, what he discovered was

what john bolton reportedly called a drug deal, you know, this illicit transaction that the white house was trying to impose on ukraine. it is a shocking thing. >> yeah. >> you see all of this -- this flailing by the house republicans to react without actually addressing the substance because they're getting no direction from the white house.the white house has offer. it is only the president's twitter feed, which is insane. so what are they -- >> well, i mean the twitter feed is so erratic. the president has moved far past ever being able to sketch out any plan. he is beyond a day trader now. he has mental eruptions himself, spasms of lucidity, but nothing that the conference can follow because his ability to do that is degenerating. what i find interesting, mika,

sitting here in washington, we were up in maine a couple of months ago and we got a call from somebody who has worked in central and eastern europe a lot, knew your dad very well, and said, hey, you need to look into this. trump is holding up military aid to the ukrainians until they investigate joe biden. now, that word was around. an ap reporter had asked a question over a month ago, that specific question. what is fascinating is that in a month's time we are now -- we now have the evidence to back up what everybody feared was the worst case scenario. it has happened. i must say, mika, shocking still that some republicans will still not step up to the camera and say this is a disgrace, and it really endangers one of america's most important allies in central and eastern europe. it sends a terrible message

across the globe and will damage -- damage our standing with allies for some time to come. >> coming up on "morning joe", who is the democrat's front-runner for president? one day it is joe biden, the next elizabeth warren is out front. we will make sense of the new numbers next on "morning joe". ♪ (alarm beeping) welcome to our busy world. where we all want more energy. but with less carbon footprint. can we have both? at bp, we're working every day to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. to make energy that's cleaner and better. but we're also a company that controls hiv, fights cancer, repairs shattered bones,

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>> you know, mika, a lot of people have been thinking, as have i, that this ukrainian affair would accrue to the benefit of donald trump's opponents but also joe biden's opponent. you have three polls out the last two days. one has elizabeth warren ahead but the other two show joe biden with a big lead. >> the srs poll out yesterday shows joe biden maintaining his lead in the race for the democratic presidential nomination. in the national poll the former vice president is at 34% of the democratic and democratic-leaning registered voters, up ten points since september. >> let's stop right there.

>> stop right there. >> so let's go to ad guru, all around good guy, donny deutsch -- said nobody in america. donny deutsch, up ten points since the scandal broke. >> wow. >> you just wonder if donald trump's attacks against joe biden are having the opposite impact on his campaign, that democrats across america are thinking this guy is so scared of joe biden that he's actually going to do illegal things and try to undermine american foreign policy to stop him. >> it says two things -- >> plus ten. >> yes, it clearly says if trump is afraid of him he must be the guy but something else is going on and mike and i were talking about that. the very thing people hold against trump -- hold against biden, that he is kind of boring, old and this and that, what we're calling neutral is a positive.

every day that we live through this traumatic, ridiculous circus side show, putting uncle joe in there as opposed to going from radical to radical, to elizabeth warren, feels pretty good. neutral is okay. you know, he's not going to blow us up. he has been there for a long time, and i will feel comfortable and safe. this is kind of a weird thing because it is like a comfortable shoe if you will. the very thing people are worried about him is bane fa be here the more the circus heightens up, and i think you see it in the numbers. >> wow. >> the exhaustion factor we have talked about for some time have sunk in with donald trump. even his reporters are exhausted by the tweets, exhausted by the radicalism, exhausted by him flipping from one issue to another to another. just the constant attacks, and you look at the south carolina poll yesterday from monmouth, your home state. >> yes. >> is saying joe biden way ahead, up 33% to elizabeth

warren's 16%. >> yes. i mean in south carolina -- >> still way up. >> it always looked like a great state for biden. the peril for him is if he were to lose, you know, both iowa and new hampshire to warren, then people would be asking, you know, really if -- does she have the momentum. but, look, i think there's another factor here. i think that warren's performance in the last debate and and what a lot of people saw as her evasion on the question of raising taxes for medicare for all, i think that even in the democratic party that's all in for universal health care, i think that's an issue. i mean she says she is going to come out with a plan because she has a plan for everything, and i'm sure she will, and maybe that will help. but i think it is a fact, i hear it a lot from people.

>> yeah. >> i have heard that the past week and i have heard people talking about the slowing of her momentum, but there is -- actually, i believe she is facing a challenge. she needs to make sure she doesn't fall off like kamala harris fell off after initial surge. she has to be concerned about that. a new q poll, mika, actually tells a completely different story. >> yeah. >> it seems right now to be a bit of an outlier. >> well, the new q poll out this morning, quinnipiac university, shows elizabeth warren at 28%, seven points ahead of biden. biden sits at 21% in this poll, down six points since last week, while senator bernie sanders rounds out the top three at 15%, up four points. mayor pete buttigieg is up two points, that guy keeps growing at 10%. senator kamala harris sits at 5%, up one. there's a couple of things at play here. there's a big question about how

warren is going to pay for her plans, and i think she has taken too long to answer it doesn't roll off the tongue easily for her. on top of it, the people that support joe biden, they want a good person in the white house with experience. joe has that. they know joe. they know his story. so when you go after -- when president trump viciously goes after joe biden's son they take it personally, his remaining surviving son. i think joe biden has an answer to the hunter question. it is the bottom line is, i'm running for president, not my son. perhaps joe biden wouldn't have done what hunter did, but it was legal and it was investigated. i mean these things are clear for biden supporters to understand, and i would think they would take what president trump has done very personally. coming up on "morning joe", majority whip james clyburn is with us. he remembers his friend elijah cummings as the late lawmaker lies in state today at the u.s. capital.

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the people, my people are so smart. you know what else they say about my people, the polls? they say i have the most loyal people. did you ever see that? where i could stand in the middle of 5th avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters, okay? it is like incredible. >> that was donald trump in 2016. speaking yesterday, president trump's private attorney said that the president could not be investigated or prosecuted as long as he is in the white house even for shooting someone in the middle of 5th avenue. >> what's your view on the 5th avenue example? local authorities couldn't investigate, they couldn't do anything about it? >> i -- i think once a president is removed from office, any local authority -- this is not a permanent immunity. >> i'm talking about while in office. >> no. >> that's the hypo.

nothing could be done, that is your position? >> that is correct. that is correct. >> the president's lawyer was asking the u.s. court of appeals to block a subpoena for trump's private financial records from new york prosecutors investigating hush money payments. according to "the washington post", the judge seemed skeptical of the president's sweeping claims of immunity from not just prosecution but also investigation. >> you know, by the way, i have to say that 1970 -- what was it? 1972, '73, '74 guideline on presidents never being able to be prosecuted is such a ridiculous guideline. that is the exact place where a law professor would have taken us. oh, oh, mr. scarborough, they can't. well, what if they, say, shot somebody? anybody who thinks the united states supreme court would not allow the president of the united states to be prosecuted for murder is living in a

fantasy world. it is -- first of all, it is a ridiculous guideline. secondly, that argument shows you just how extreme the president's lawyers will go. >> joining us now, house majority whip, democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. jim clyburn, it is great to see you and have you on the show this morning. >> thank you very much for having me. >> honoring elijah's wife and also, of course, keeping in mind the loss of your wife. >> thank you. >> thank you for okay. we are so sorry for your loss. >> thank you for having me. >> tell us about elijah. >> a great guy. i knew elijah before he came to congress. >> right. >> as you know, his roots were deep in south carolina soil. in the county where brown v. board of education all got started, elijah's family was very involved in that. of course, when he got elected to congress i had a big time coming for him. my wife and i put together a big

event at mount zero baptist church outside of manning, and a big storm came up that day. i said to my wife, i said, you know, we sure picked a horrible day to do this for elijah. lo and behold when we got to the church that night, it was full of people. people were everywhere. i had no idea his family was so big. but it was just a great homecoming. the weather didn't bother them at all. elijah and i talked a whole lot up here. as you know, he was a pk, a preacher's kid. >> right. >> of course, we had that in common. we talked about the challenges of growing up, especially in the south where everybody knew you and everybody knew the preacher's kid. >> preacher's kid. >> oh, lord. >> talk about a tough gig, that's one of the toughest gigs. >> yeah, yeah. >> it is funny. emanuel cleaver would call elijah a bootleg preacher.

>> yes, he did. >> he said, i went to school to be a real preacher. elijah, you're a bootleg preacher. but the way he spoke. >> absolutely. >> and the way he carried himself, there was such dignity, such grace. >> sure. >> and just the power. you could feel the power of god in that man and his worsds. >> well, you know, he and i talked about that a lot. he was grounded by faith. his whole notion about how to serve was just faith-based. >> yes. >> and, you know, i thought -- my dad said to me when i told him i was not going to the seminary as we talked about so often, he said to me, "i suspect the world would much rather see a sermon than to hear one." >> amen. >> i talked with elijah about that, and we all saw it, both of us, that part of our duty and responsibility to our communities was for people to see a good, productive sermon in our service. that is the way we did it.

one of the proudest moments of my service here was when elijah came up to me one day and says, you know, as chair of the congressional black caucus -- which he was -- i get to selection someone for the award at our phoenix awards' ceremony and i have selected you. that to me was one of the proudest moments here. >> you know, we talk about grace and things. you know, we thought things were heated when you and i worked together. >> yeah. >> during impeachment. it wasn't. >> no. >> we were still talking to each other. but things have gotten so much more heated, but a couple of moments of elijah's over the past year really stand out. one -- >> oh, yeah. >> -- was when mark meadows, you know, asked him to vouch for him and say he wasn't a racist. he told everybody, one of my best friends. >> he was one of his best friends, yeah. >> and then when you had michael

cohen, and elijah again talking about that amazing race and cohen, just tears coming down his eyes. elijah assuring him, you know, it can be okay. this can be the start of a better life. >> well, to elijah this country's greatness is really based upon the goodness of its people. he really believed very strongly, as he would often say, we are better than this. we are better than that. you know i sometimes wonder when i watched -- especially yesterday. i said to myself, you know, i really liked old joe scarborough when he was here in the congress. we used to joke around a lot, even go into the crown room together back in those days. >> yeah. i'm a man of the people now. i come up in a greyhound bus,

but go ahead. >> i don't believe i can do it now because people look upon me aghast just to see me interacting with you on the floor. i don't understand that. i really -- >> i don't understand now. i tell you, it was a problem for maxine. i would go over and hug maxine. >> you did it on purpose. she would get so upset. >> she would say, get away from me, you're losing me votes in the district. get away from us. >> but elijah showed us it is okay to say, hey, i don't agree with mark meadows on anything, he's one of my best friends. you know, when elijah and i worked together, we worked together and were able to put together a long-term health bill. >> sure. >> but we had to shut out the leadership on both sides and just say, i trust you. >> often. >> you trust me, and we'll get it done. >> yeah. >> that was a guy you could trust. >> sure. but in those days and in some instances now, the leadership would delegate certain things to you, knowing full well you have these relationships, worked on

them, this is where we want to get. you work it out and come back with a report. today these things are overridden and they give you what you're supposed to go into the meetings with. these things back in those days were much more -- camaraderie i think would be a good word. >> right. >> but, you know, i often see even in my interactions with a lot of people that i disagreed with vehemently, away from public view we still smile, we still hang out on the golf course together, as i just did this past monday playing golf with some people i have never voted with, would never agree with, but we had a good time on the golf course together. >> so we're going to see an overwhelming show of support in honor of elijah cummings today. there will be presidents and statesmen speaking at his funeral on friday. what do you think he would want

people to remember or to have as his legacy? >> i think that elijah's legacy to me were two-pronged. the first one is this, he matters not where you start life or where you finished. elijah was placed in special education as a kid. >> it is an incredible story. >> can you believe that? >> it is an incredible story. we talked about that a lot. he said to me on more than one occasion, part of our job up here is to make sure we salvage as many of these young people as we possibly can who are not understood. the other thing special about elijah was his inquisitiveness. a teacher saw that and made that correction. we saw it as our duty and responsibility to make as many corrections as we possibly can. this country's greatness is not we're more enlightened, but because we are able to repair our faults. when a teacher saw that fault,

moved to repair it, that's what we have to do these days. there are a lot of faults we see being exposed over here in the capital. >> oh, yeah. >> our responsibility is do what we can to repair, and in doing so the second prong, the goodness of the people will dictate the greatness of this country. >> now. >> there you go. >> speaking of making corrections and having to do that every day, i got willie geist in new york who corrects me every day. he has a question for you. >> your personal ombudsman, joe. congressman, it is good to see you this morning. i wanted to add my condolences in the loss of your wife emily. i know you were married for 58 years, how special she was, and probably the reason you are sitting here today, nudging you into politics. probably more than nudging but my condolences to you on that. >> thank you very much. >> i want to ask you about the scene we stau aw in the united states capital yesterday with

the group of republicans forcing their way into the scif where a deposition was to take place. what did you make of what you saw yesterday and your assessment of the way democrats are handling this investigation? >> well, i think that -- thank you so much, willie. thanks for your condolences. you are right, emma was a great person that made me be who i am today. look, on yesterday what we saw was a -- just misrepresentation of what is taking place up here. we got 109 members of these three committees. of that 109, 47 of them in the room every day are republicans with their counsel. three are participating. they get equal time to ask questions and to follow up with questions. so this notion that we're doing something in secret is just absolutely not true. it is in private, and that's where you do fact finding because we are supposed to not

just pursue the guilty but we are to protect the innocent. you cannot do that in public view. so it is shameful that they would be misrepresenting this process this way. we don't know what goes on in a grand jury room because the grand jury is supposed to find out the facts, pursue the truth, make sure that the guilty is brought to justice, but also in the process to protect all of those innocent people who may get besmirched along the way. that's all that is going on here. it is shameful they're misrepresenting this, but i guess that's the climate within which we now live. >> exactly what we were talking about. congressman jim clyburn, thank you so much. >> thank you so much. >> we'll see you later this morning. >> thank you. up next is our fourth lawmaker of the morning here on capitol hill, senator jeanne shaheen on the consequences of giving isis a new breath of life in syria. as we go to break, here is judge

andrew napolitano on "fox news" dismantling the republican stunt at yesterday's closed-door hearing. >> i read the house rules. >> okay. >> and as frustrating as it may be to have these hearings going on behind closed doors, the hearings over which congressman schiff is presiding, they're consistent with the rules. >> they can make up any rules they want? >> well, they can't change the rule, they follow the rules. when were the rules written last? in january of 2015. who signed them? john boehner. i get it, the republicans are frustrated and they wanted to make a point and they made it. but it is just the most effective way to show respect for what your colleagues are doing. my moderate to severe ulcerative colitis. but i realized something was missing... me. the thought of my symptoms returning was keeping me from being there for the people and things i love most. so, i talked to my doctor and learned humira can help get, and keep, uc under control

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reports of 100 have escaped. >> there was a few that got out. a small number relatively speaking and they have been largely recaptured. >> we would say the number is now over 100. we do not know where they are. >> well there is a serious disagreement between the president and his top team on the status of the more than 100 isis fighters that escaped ku kurdish prisons in the assault. we are joined by jean shaheen and diane foley whose son, james foal foley, a journalist, was murdered in syria. >> senator, what are the consequences of the president's

erratic axes in syria? >> we talked about the tragedy that is now syria and has been for a long time. the good news was we stabilized it working with the kurds. we were fighting isis. we had in detainees in prison, and among those were two people that we think were responsible for the murder of james foley and other americans. i appreciate that the administration said they were critical and assured us they were in a critical location, but they shows they knew there would be concerns about the future detain kne detainees to come out, what are

your reactions to the events of the past ten days? >> it has been truly heartbreaking. i feel like we let people down in syria. people yearning for the freedoms that we have all enjoyed. it made jim's death, and so many other's meaningless, truly. as importantly it increased the international security risk at senator shaheen says. that more and more of the isis prisoners, thousands of them, and there are up to, what, 70,000 family members, now all less guarded, much more at risk for fleeing, and able to regroup elsewhere. while i'm grateful two of the

jihadist have been cut in custody, but it is part of the terror that isis continues to present to the world and our country in a very, very precise way. >> you know senator, we were so focused as a nation on the horrors of isis and certainly jim's death brought that sadly home, so all americans, and it is one event after another after another. they focused on the deaths of enough americans for president obama to put together a plan with the generals -- has the president grown complacent that the 35% or 40% that support this action have grown complacent and forgot just how quickly isis exploded across the middle east and the world.

there is tens of thousands of isis fighters when we look at those people who have merged back into the country side in syria and iraq. we have members in the camp that's now we're not sure what will happen to them. and we had a model that was really working. we were partnering with the curds, they were doing the fighting on the ground, we were supporting them, it was a stable situation in northeastern syria and now all of that is turned upside down. >> mrs. foley, sadly you're a gold star mother. you lost your son, james, and i'm wondering in the course of your ordinary day, as you go about your day, when you go shopping, whatever you do, that

sadness, that loss, clearly, obviously, is never done. but do the people that you encounter on a usual day in new hampshire, do you think they know or are aware of how dangerous the situation is, and the actions of the patrick swayze a few days ago adds to the danger, do you think they realize the dangerousness. >> it depends. some do. some are equally appalled by the president's recent pullout. so he was creating stability i fear they don't have any idea.

the leader al bagdadi is continuing his acts of terror. that is why we are always advocating for americans held captive around the world. we have word that assad has at least six u.s. nationals and he is emboldened by our pullout. they are all seeking to crgrab power from the curds right now. >> what can the senate and the legislative branch do? >> i want to just add to what diane says.

we want to bring back to justice the terrorist that's we think is responsible for killing americans. so that is a piece of what we need to do next. what congress needs to do is pass sanctions, it is a travesty that the president lifted sanctions, and we are creating a more stable -- >> that is not clear. there is bipartisan support to do that. there is a bill waiting that could go to the floor immediately. i'm hopeful that of the majority leader mitch mcconnell will take it up and it will send a strong message to turkey that they need to be held accountable for their actions and the president needs to resend his invitation to president erdogan to come to the united states. we should not wine and dine someone that was responsible for slaughtering the kurds.

>> thank you both very much. thank you very much for being on the show today. >> that does it for us this morning, we're going to be going over to the capital. elijah cummings service will be at 10:00, and then he will be laying en state. >> there is another service tomorrow as well in baltimore. our thoughts an our prayers are with the family and all of those that worked with him. >> stephanie ruhle picking up the coverage now. >> thank you, i'm stephanie ruhle. there is a lot happening to today. it has been one month sing they announced a formal impeachment inquiry against president donald trump. and it seems like we may be getting