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tv   Deadline White House  MSNBC  October 24, 2019 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT

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process from one of the president's most staunch defenders, senator lindsey graham taking to the podium to condemn house democrats for pursuing a, quote, closed door, illegitimate impeachment inquiry. that accusation's, of course, false. the depositions that have taken place so far have each followed standard procedure and have included both democrats and republicans. 47 republicans from three house committees. and republicans know that. they conducted the benghazi hearings the same way republican fire brand trey dowdy defending the value of closed door hearings at the time. >> i could just tell you that of the 50 some-odd interviews we have done thus far, the vast majority of them have been private. you don't see the bickering among the members of congress and private interviews. you don't see any of that. the private ones always produce better results. >> that was just four years ago. and it's against that backdrop once republican talking point that lindsey graham's anguish
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over bipartisan closed-door hearings democrats say rings hollow or even desperate today, especially on the heels of yesterday's swarm on a secure room in the capitol. this extraordinary move delaying testimony in the impeachment probe for more than five hours. and it alarmed national security experts. a move that the president publicly encouraged, at least this morning on twitter, thanking house republicans for being, quote, tough, smart, and understanding and dismissing the entire inquiry in his words as a total scam. yet, what the president's celebration overlooked is that in the two days of dramatic performances from a handful of his loyalists, we still have yet to hear one elected republican take to the podium and defend the president on the allegation at the center of all of this that he conditioned much needed military aid for ukraine on political investigations into his opponents. joining us at the table right now senior political reporter for "washington post," aaron blake. chris lieu, former assistant to president obama.
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he also served on the oversight committee during the clinton impeachment. plus fox contributor sir michael singleton who is here, and the white house correspondent michael crowley. michael, we want to talk to you if we can about this very quickly. we are hearing the president, he is praising what happened by his republican allies. yesterday he said this was the perfect call. but it seems like republicans are sort of grabbing at straws right now trying to come up with any clear strategy how to fight this. >> yeah. i think you're right. and, you know, a wise washington press person told me recently not in the context of the ukraine investigation he was reflecting on his career doing press step. it was a long career and he handled some very serious matters. he said when you can't argue on the substance, when you don't have a defense on the substance, you focus on the process. and this is just such a vivid illustration of that maxim.
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republicans are really not trying to defend the president on the substance. they don't have particularly good counter arguments to the claims being made by these quite credible state department nsc and other officials. so what they are doing is complaining that they don't like the process that, you know, it's behind closed doors. i have noticed there is this talking point emerging that it's a stalinist process trying to overthrow the government. and even i think create intentionally a circus atmosphere by storming the committee room yesterday, making it seem like it's chaotic. but that's all process, it's not substance. >> and the president, as we know, as one of the president's closest allies said to me, he said the president wants to see his people fighting. he says when we are fighting we are winning no matter what the substance of that fight is right now. this is from "the washington post." and this is the way the president views it, perhaps echoing that thought right there. trump has complained in recent days that no one is forcefully
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defending him and convened tuesday at the white house before they barged into the secure room according to lawmakers and aides familiar with the meeting. trump told them to take more aggressive steps to block the investigation, these people said. we heard the president on monday, aaron. he said he wants to see republicans get tougher and to fight. then they went out there. they did what they did yesterday. today he is saying i love what you guys did on my behalf. and this is exactly what the president's calling for. >> it is. and it was notably missing for a few days there. i think michael brings up an important point here that the evidence that we've seen makes it very difficult to defend the president. but i also think that what we've seen over the last couple weeks is those initial defenses that republicans came forward, especially with the no quid pro quo defense. we had many republicans out there saying well, you know, there might've been something bad here, but there wasn't a quid pro quo, it wasn't that bad. and suddenly we see bill taylor's testimony and all of a
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sudden the rug is pulled out from under them. but worried about what the next evidence is going to be making their current defenses look even worse. >> aaron, as you write, the six defenses of trump and ukraine were falling apart were just plain bad. this has been a repeated effort, one after another, and almost all of them have been erased to this point. >> there is no quid pro quo, there is lots of process arguments here that don't exactly make sense. i think what we are seeing from lindsey graham here especially, the idea that there is no due process here, the idea that republicans, you know, the whole scene yesterday, the premise of it was that this stuff was happening in secret and it wasn't coming out. well, there are 47, 48 republicans who are authorized to go in there. that's about one-third of the republicans -- >> including some of the republicans yesterday who were protesting. some of them were on the commities. >> exactly. and the other thing is this is secretive right now. they said they are going to release the transcripts eventually. this portion of the investigation is not akin to the trial. this is the investigative
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portion. i think some have compared it to a grand jury investigation where in the grand jury decides whether to bring charges and then we actually have a trial which would take place in the senate where they can cross-examine and do all these things. >> and by the way there could be some hearings. democrats suggesting it could happen next month, a couple weeks away, that some of these people may be called back to testify. the privacy right now also allows for some of the classified information to be detailed. we were just talking about lindsey graham, one of the president's staunchest allies. our reporting is that he was among several republicans who were at the white house today talking about a variety of topics, syria among them, but that's a topic for later in this hour, i suspect. let me ask you right now as we take a look at lindsey graham, to react. take a listen. >> i think if we were doing this, you would be beating the [ bleep ] out of us. i think if a republican were doing to a democrat what we are doing, you would be all over me, and i think it says a lot about the people in your business with all due respect. what i am saying is there is a right way to do it and a wrong
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way to do it. and this is a dangerous way to do it. >> chris, your reaction to that as an attorney. >> i spent eight years on the house oversight committee. i took dozens of depositions. not a single deposition was attended by somebody who was not on the committee. and the transparenty here is even broader. it's not only the 47 other members. this could have been depositions just conducted by the house intelligence committee. but chairman schiff widened that to include two other committees along the way. so it could've been only a dozen republicans. it's actually 47. and lindsey graham knows better. he was one of the impeachment managers and he understands this is a different posture than both the nixon and the clinton impeachment cases when there was a special counsel who had done months or in the case of nixon years of investigation. those investigative reports along with the witness testimony were provided to the house. in 1998, the house judiciary committee held no meaningful hearings before they impeached bill clinton. >> you brought up lindsey graham during the clinton years.
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we happen to have that tape. let's watch it. >> it is not your job to tell us what we need. it is your job to comply with the things we need to provide oversight over you. the day richard nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from congress over the impeachment process away from congress. and he became the judge and jury. >> lindsey graham knows full well that as aaron said, the process right now is akin to a grand jury investigation. the house will determine whether the charges be brought and to the extent that there are witnesses called. now again there might be witnesses in the context of hearings that are held by house judiciary. but the real trial, quote/unquote, happens in the u.s. senate. and lindsey graham is the chair of the judiciary committee. so he's really just blowing smoke right now. >> it's coming from among other people judge napolitano for folks watching msnbc. but for fox news viewers
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including president trump, it's a familiar one. here's the way he broke it down. watch. >> let me tell you what i did for you. i read the house rules. and as frustrating as it may be to have these hearings going on behind closed doors, they are consistent with the rules. >> they can make up any rules they want. >> well, they can't change the rules, they follow the rules. and when were the last written? last in january of 2015. and who signed them? john boehner. and who enacted them? a republican majority. >> sirmichael, it's a problem right now. >> it is a problem. and i can guarantee you president trump is not happy with those comments. but i think aaron's reporting is very interesting. because what you are beginning to see is republicans are no longer trying to make cogent substantive arguments about the actions. they are talking about the process. so the hope i am imagining here is to sort of muddy the waters, create some skepticism within the base. create some skepticism within
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independence. recent data came out several days oohing that only 7% of voters in iowa found the impeachment inquiry to be a top issue. when you look at most of the battleground states, it's not even a top five issue. so i am imagining looking purely at the politics they are looking at those numbers and trying to figure out how do we create the most doubt possible to at least in some voters' minds raise that question of doubt which they hope would benefit the president politically. >> the president meeting behind closed doors as we said with some republicans earlier today. he talked to lindsey graham about this idea of fairness. in my conversations with the president's allies, they say this idea of fairness is the one that sort of resonates. you're like, yeah, he is not getting a fair shake here. but it's to your point, this is about process, not about the details. at some point those details are going to be made public, either at a trial or perhaps with some public hearings going forward. let me play for you how we may learn more specifics about this, the latest attack from the white house has been in the words of the white house, i think it was
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a triple hearsay was the way they described it right now. okay? this is what we expect to hear as it comes to timothy morrison. he was one of the national security councils in charge of you a eurasia policy. and this is from bill taylor's testimony. it reads, morrison went on to describe a conversation ambassador sondland, the former e.u. ambassador had with a ukrainian official, mr. yermak he told him the security money would not come until president zelensky committed to pursue the burisma investigation. i was alarmed taylor said by what mr. morrison told me about the sondland-yermak conversation. this was the first time i had heard that the security assistance not just the white house meeting, was conditioned. the concern is that this was triple hearsay. they're about to hear from the
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person who was a primary source on it, who experienced first hand. >> yeah. that's for me? for this michael? yeah, you're absolutely right. and, you know, this all goes back to the idea, as you suggested, you know, triple hearsay it was the whistle-blower, he didn't know what he was talking about. those defenses have completely fallen apart. and there is really not much left for the white house or republicans to do but to argue that this is not somehow an impeachable offense. but, you know, i mean, each the response to taylor a couple days ago saying that this was triple hearsay. i mean, taylor, virtually none of what taylor said was hearsay. i guess some of it was relayed to him by other officials. but he was right in the thick of a lot of the process. he knew a lot of what was happening. and tim morrison is sitting there in the white house,
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national security top staffer for russia. he is in these meetings. he knows what's going on, on the phone calls. so if anyone does have doubt about taylor who was there in ukraine effectively acting as ambassador, there was no ambassador at the time because they had pushed out the ambassador partly because of rudy giuliani seemed to be spreading unfair information about her. so taylor is the acting ambassador. but tim morrison is right there in the white house. and tim morrison is a bolton guy. either the president who either resigned or fired -- you'd have to think that tim morrison shares some of that. >> exactly right. aaron, your thoughts. >> we were all waiting for bill taylor's testimony for weeks. we knew this was going to be a big one because of the text messages we saw. the next big one is tim morrison because he can corroborate this testimony. but i also think it's important to remember what senator ron johnson said about this. he said pretty similar to what
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bill taylor testified to, which was that he had heard from gordon sondland that that military assistance was in fact tied to these investigations that he wasn't comfortable with it. we basically have two sources who are attesting to that. gordon sondland was involved in this. we have sondland saying he doesn't remember making such request to ukraine. but if we get a third source here and it's tim morrison, that's going to be a very significant set of circumstances. >> i want to read from peter baker a friend of the "new york times" who talks about the president's war on the deep state that dates back to even before his presidency, but of course he says it's just been inflated over the course of this time in office. he writes over the last three weeks the deep state has emerged from the shadows in the form of real live government officials past and present who have deified that largely backs up the still anonymous whistle-blower. chris, is that the way that you see this working right now? you have these seasoned veteran diplomats, guys, like bill taylor, marie yovanovitch,
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people whose reputations remain impeccable, the president trying to call them never-trumpers that they are, quote, human scum. >> let's be honest. there never really was a deep state. these are career civil servants who swore to uphold the constitution. i applaud these people for stepping forward. i would caution republicans in this effort to get transparency. be careful what you ask for. bill taylor, westpoint grad, vietnam war veteran, 50 years in government service. marie yovanovitch, fiona hill, while a political appointee, an expert respected on both sides. if those three people come up there and they testify to what they said in their opening at the same times -- statements, they are going to do quite well. >> i think there are two things the republicans are relying on. they are relying on the natural disposition to be distrusting of the institutions of government, if you will, and number two, they are relying on the
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skepticism from republican voters that they have been going after our president since day one. i do think politically speaking those things are somewhat advantageous to trump's overall strategy. >> national polls show that more and more americans are okay with this impeachment inquiry. but if you look at wisconsin, the numbers are a little bit better for president trump. michael crowley, we thank you for spending some time with us right here. when we come back, defending the president, it's getting harder for republicans as more and more of their arguments simply don't hold up against the facts. we will take a closer look. also making the case against rudy giuliani to. two former u.s. attorneys say they have what they need to charge the president's personal lawyer right now. one of them joins us here to explain. and tonight remembering elijah cummings, the first african-american lawmaker to lie in state on capitol hill. we will be right back. but we'rey that controls hiv,
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that's just the way i talk to the president of ukraine who by the way said there was no pressure, there was no blackmail, there was no anything. you know what, there was no pressure. and you know -- and by the way, you know there was no pressure. all you have to do is see what went on, on the call. i haven't heard one ukrainian say there was pressure. i haven't heard one ukrainian, not one say that there was pressure of any kind. >> it is a talking point that we have heard since the ukraine scandal began that ukraine never felt pressured to investigate the president's political opponents.
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but the "associated press" reports it was such an issue the newly elected president of ukraine was worried about what he would be pressured to do even before he took office. for a meeting that was supposed to be about his nation's energy needs. instead the group spent most of the three-hour discussion talking about how to navigate the insistence from trump and his personal lawyer rudy giuliani for a probe and how to avoid becoming entangled in the elections, the american elections, according to three people familiar with the details of the meeting. this no-pressure defense is just the latest talking point that seems to have crumbled as more information is made public. yesterday another theory fell apart. we heard republican congressman john ratcliffe with this argument. >> neither he or any other witness has provided testimony that the ukrainians were aware that military aid was being withheld. you can't have a quid pro quo with no quo. >> but then the "new york times"
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found ukraine did know the aid was being withheld back in august. and this week we also heard the defense that even if it happened, it doesn't matter. >> abuse of power is not a crime. let's fundamentally boil it down. the constitution's very clear that this has to be some pretty egregious behavior. and they cannot tell the american people what this case is even about right now. >> that was the former acting attorney general matt whitaker whose name is being floated as a possible chief of staff if mick mulvaney ultimately loses his job. keep in mind the impeachment article is drawn up for both nixon and clinton abuse of power had occurred in those cases. and then there is the original defense that the whistle-blower's complaint was all hearsay. this was lindsey graham a month ago. >> this seems to me like a political setup. it's all hearsay. you can't get a parking ticket conviction based on hearsay. the whistle-blower didn't hear the phone call. >> and that was debunked by
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mounting evidence that continues to come out from testimony by subsequent witnesses released text messages and even the summary the white house released of the july 25th call. joining the table right now juanita, campaign director at the center for american progress action fund. we appreciate your joining this conversation. >> thank you for having me. >> so the bar that was set was there was no quid pro quo. >> there was no quid pro quo. >> we don't even need a quid pro quo. >> no, we don't because what we have here is a president asking a foreign entity to interfere in u.s. elections, to dig up dirt. >> which alone is a problem. >> which alone is a problem. so interfering in our elections, dig up dirt on my political opponent and then i'll give you some aid, then i'll have you at the white house, then i'll, then i'll. what we heard from ambassador taylor is he sent so far as to have his allies work on his behalf to say that everything ukraine needs hinges on their willingness to interfere in our election and dig up this dirt. so the whistle-blower had it right. and a lot of that information
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included in the whistle-blower's letter was corroborated by a number of witnesses. so republicans honestly have nowhere to run on this. >> we have heard the president repeatedly complain about adam schiff, the way he characterized the president's call with the ukrainian president. we have the call with the ukrainian president. it doesn't matter what adam schiff said or didn't say. we have the primary documents and we are hearing from the officials in the room. >> the whistle-blower complaint was a launching point. it didn't present itself as being necessarily a first-hand account having primary access to some of this information. but it allowed for the government to say, hey, here is something that might be problematic, we should look at this. the testimony of bill taylor is much closer to what we are getting at here. the testimony of tim morrison. gordon sondland too. all of these are first hand people who are involved in all these things. so focusing on the whistle-blower complaint at this point is really like the process arguments. it's what you talk about when you don't have something else. >> we did here a little bit of a nuanced argument today that we've heard in other places.
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but i thought it was captured succinctly by peter king saying the president can do whatever he likes, he is the president. here's how he cast it. >> the fact is the president has his own style, his own way of doing it. >> the fact that he wants to work around the state department, the fact that he doesn't trust the intelligence community, i don't blame him for that. >> can you write this off, chris, as the president has his own style and just wants to work around the state department? >> peter, that's the nixon defense. it's not illegal if the president says it's legal. you have really given up all defenses b defenses. they really have a pr strategy, but it's a moving strategy because they ultimately don't know all the facts. i think it's very challenging with each one of these depositions this picture is getting filled out right now. we ultimately can see the outlines of what this is. and the challenges when you've got the president's personal lawyer rudy giuliani who is hiring his own lawyers, that's not a very good sign as to where your defense strategy. >> and one thing that was
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striking we again heard from lindsey graham who was on capitol hill making the case for the president today. he said that he was told by mick mulvaney, the current acting chief of staff at the white house that the white house is, quote, working on getting an impeachment response team together. they are, quote, working on, which by the way we are exactly a month to the day since nancy pelosi made this announcement. shermichael, let me play for you what the "wall street journal" is saying, its editorial board. it may turn out that while mr. trump wanted a quid pro quo policy ultimatum toward ukraine, he was too inept to execute it. impeachment for incompetence would disqualify most of the evidence at some point in office. a little desperate. >> not smart enough? [ laughter ] >> that's the argument. >> look. a famous person once said it's what you can prove, right? and i would add an addendum to that. it's who you can also convince. i think as democrats prepare to make this a more public opening,
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the defenders of the president are likely going to rely on, this is too complicated for voters to understand, they are not going to be able to follow all of the processes here. but what i think democrats may be smart to do is to try to take the complexities of all of this two or three issues. this is what the president did wrong, this is why he should be impeached. this is why this is not god for the country. and i can guarantee you if they can articulate that message well enough, you may see more republican senators that we don't know of yet who may say, you know what, i am open to seeing where this is going to go. that is not a good sign for this president. i would also add watch independent voters in key swing states. >> those alarm bells beginning to sound yesterday. the number two most powerful republican in the senate is a man by the name of john thune of south dakota he said from what i've heard, it's not a good picture that's being painted right now. i was struck though by this idea of ineptitude. because as a person who covered the trump campaign and knew a lot of these people, they did
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have a small staff. there wasn't a lot to this group. but it does sort of echo what happened throughout their dispute of the russia allegations, right? we can never put this all together because there are just a few of us working on this thing. >> but remember the first thing the white house release wad that very damning memo of the call notes from ukraine. it really does highlight that they are missing the mark here and clearly unaware of what they are up against or how bad what they are doing is. so that gap is clear and their slow start is even more damning. >> the president may have made this case for himself when he said the following in january i think this was of, what, of 2016. take a listen. you will recognize the sound. >> where i could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody and i wouldn't lose any voters, okay? it's like incredible. >> so this was the president's case basically saying that he could shoot somebody on fifth avenue and nobody would go anywhere and it wouldn't be a crime right now. now he has some of his lawyers making that same case on his behalf, chris. one of the president's lawyers
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tells the judge in a federal case right now as it relates to some of his finances. if the president were to shoot someone on fifth avenue, he could not be criminally indicted. this is what it sounded like. >> what's your view on the fifth avenue example? local authorities couldn't investigate? they couldn't do anything about it? >> i think once a president is removed from office, any local authority, this is not a permanent immunity. >> well, i am talking about while in office. >> no. >> that's the hypo. nothing could be done, that's your position? >> that is correct, that's correct. >> what do you make of that position? >> if the president had committed a crime before coming to office, you can investigate him because he is president. if he commits a crime while in office, the office of legal counsel memo says you can't investigate him. and if he goes on fifth avenue and he shoots but he misses you can't go after him. or if he accidently buys a bb gun and he misses you can't go
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after him. >> this is a remarkable argument i think a lot of people were paying attention to over the course of these days. shermichael, we appreciate your being here. coming up right here, could rudy giuliani be indicted? our next guest says yes based on the evidence she could make the case today. we will explain. ile unlimited t, text and data is just 30 bucks a line for 4 lines. and now you can get it on our newest, most powerful signal. no signal reaches farther or is more reliable. get 4 new lines of unlimited for just 30 bucks a line.
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you can wait, and pay it off in one lump sum when you leave your home. discover the option that's best for you. call today and find out more. i'm proud to be a part of aag, i trust em, i think you can too. donald trump is obviously the epicenter in this impeachment inquiry. but rudy giuliani has always been its beating heart. his fingerprints are all over the ukraine saga that along with a series of blunders has complicated his traditional role as trump's cable tv fighter. you may or may not have noticed, but giuliani's been conspicuous absent from the air waves recently but who knows how long that will last. from "the washington post," trump has also sought more aides to go on tv and defend him.
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trump advisers say rudy giuliani has been asked to tone down his appearances in recent days and has done so. many other aides are leery of going on tv because they do not know the facts current and former administration officials said. giuliani's twitter traffic has also slowed considerably. but last night he poked his head out and he posted the following. he wrote, with all the fake news, let me make it clear that everything i did was to discover evidence to defend my client against false charges. dems would be horrified by the attacks on me if my client was a terrorist, but they don't believe donald trump has rights. justice will prevail. joining the conversation right now, former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor barbara mcquade. let me ask you, aaron, if i can, about rudy giuliani. so the president's liked having him out in front. he's been positive about him saying, yeah, i think he's still my attorney right now. but historically, he seems to have hurt his client's argument
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more than he has helped it. >> yes. sometimes he gets out in front of bad stories. he blurts out something like about the hush money we come to find out later on maybe he was just planting the seed. i think the other way to read rudy giuliani not being out there is even if he's not doing the tv interviews, why isn't he tweeting as much? i think that there is more than a little bit of suspicion that his potential legal jeopardy is maybe influencing some of those decisions the more that he says on the record publicly the more that could be used against him in the future. there has been reporting that he is at least of some interest to the investigators who have ditd his two business associates. >> so based only on publicly available information, barbara, this is for you, you and our friend joyce vance have assembled what an indictment right now would look like. so make your case against rudy giuliani based on what we know publicly to this point. >> yep. based on public meetings, based on public statements, based on tweets, there is evidence to
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support a case that rudy giuliani engaged in three crimes. one, conspiracy to defraud the united states by seeking a thing of value from a foreign government. the government of ukraine investigations about rivals of president trump. count two, conspiracy to commit bribery, exchanging the performance of an official act that is military aid in exchange for this information is a crime under the bribery statutes. and finally contempt of congress. congress has issued a valid subpoena to rudy giuliani. he has simply said i am not complying. he has some recourse, which is to go to a court and say it's either harassing, oppressive, overly broad but he hasn't done that. he just said i am not going to comply. so all three of those counts i think could be charged today. >> and president trump appears as individual one an alleged co-conspirator. explain that. >> well, as we all learned through the robert mueller investigation, the department of
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justice has a policy based on what it believes to be its opinion that a sitting president cannot be indicted. and so the way president trump's conduct was treated by the southern district of new york for example was to refer to his activity but to refer to him as individual one. typically the justice department does not name people who are listed as unindicted co-conspirators. that is, they did participate in the conspiracy but for one reason or another they are not being charged. and so it is typical then for the justice department to use some sort of generic identifier like individual one as opposed to naming them by name. >> so let me walk our audience through this really quickly if we can. this is your proposed indictment as it would exist presently for rudy giuliani. you say at all times relevant to this indictment, defendant rudolph w. giuliani was a private u.s. citizen licensed to practice law in the state of new york. at all times relevant to this indictment giuliani was serving as a private attorney and agent for individual 1.
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those words agent right there. why is that critical for an indictment of this type? >> yeah. and, you know, you mentioned joyce vance and i. we talked about that phrase that it was important to include the word agent and not just attorney. because many of the things that rudy giuliani were doing were not acting as an attorney even though he is an attorney and attorney for president trump. he was acting more as a business agent, a liaison for president trump trying to negotiate a deal for him. and so that would matter because he wouldn't be able to hide behind the attorney/client privilege for things that he had done outside the scope of legal advice. and of course even the attorney/client privilege applies only to communications for the purpose of receiving legal advice and does not shield criminal behavior. >> chris, let me ask you this question. how much trouble is rudy giuliani in right now? is rudy giuliani going to be the first one who ends up in jail as it relates to the president's inner circle? >> you only need to look at michael cohen as example number one and i never contradict what
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barb and joyce say but they've made a very compelling case. i would say at least for congressional investigators is not rudy giuliani. he may provide very important information as he continues to go on tv holding up his ipad and holding up text messages. i think they will be more likely to get the information. >> but he was so relevant because of his so-called relationship to the three amigos. and rick perry who is going to be leaving office very shortly. kurt volker, one of the top envoys to ukraine and gordon sondland this european union ambassador, who, by the way, ukraine is not in the european union, nonetheless he was part of the policy there. >> his role, his communications to people in ukraine. and i think an important person who we haven't mentioned is john bolton who has raised lots of red flags and who may have grievances against this president. >> barbara mcquade, we always appreciate your time and your
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expertise, and in this case your mock indictment as it were. when we come back right here, we remember a giant today on capitol hill, elijah cummings. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you. and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare, you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan can cover your deductibles and co-insurance, but you may pay higher premiums and still not get prescription drug coverage. but with an all-in-one humana medicare advantage plan, you could get all that coverage plus part d prescription drug benefits. you get all this coverage for as low as a $0 monthly plan premium in many areas. and humana has a large network of doctors and hospitals, so call or go online today. find out if your doctor is part of the humana network and get your free decision
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elijah was truly a master of the house. he respected its history, and in it he helped shape america's future. i have called him our north star, our guide to a better future for our children. thank you, elijah, on behalf of the future of our children and on behalf of the future of america to be true to our believes. we say this to you as we are gathered here today in the old house chamber where lincoln served. >> the late congressman elijah cummings remembered today at a memorial on capitol hill. as we speak this evening, the general public is still paying its respects as cummings lies in state, the very first african-american lawmaker to do so ever. the funeral is set for tomorrow
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in baltimore at the church cummings attended for some 40 years. president obama and hillary clinton are both expected to speak. and if it's anything like the memorial this morning, it's going to be emotional and respectfully bipartisan. here is what the congressman's friend republican mark meadows said earlier today. >> for me i was privileged enough to be able to call him a dear friend. some have classified it as an unexpected friendship. but for those of us that know elijah, it's not unexpected or surprising. he is defined by the character of his heart, the honesty of his dialogue, and the man that -- the man that we will miss. >> again, that was mark meadows, a republican and ally of the
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president's, but it also revealed something that has been missing it feels like in washington which is of course the relationships that used to make this city work, at least at one point. my question to you is what did you take away from what we heard from not just nancy pelosi, from mark meadows though as well, these two men who clashed politically but personally were the closest of friends. >> also were able to connect as humans and i think that's something that cummings brought to the body and to his constituents whom he served. and he is a giant who many people stand on their shoulders, whether you are the young journalist he pulled aside to give an opportunity or encouragement, whether you were the constituent he listened to deeply and cared for. he is someone who i think embodies a story that most african-americans can identify as the son of sharecroppers. his father didn't even enter the capitol building until he was sworn in and realized his own potential through his son. he means a lot and his legacy will live on.
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>> this is going to be a powerful day as we hear from hillary clinton, barack obama and so many others against the backdrop of just this intense partisanship that exists. there is going to be a moment to sort of celebrate a life that was in the words of nancy pelosi, a master of the house. >> i mean an incredible life. i think about a quote that my grandfather told me a long time ago. life guarantees us nothing but time. but what do you do it. and i think when you think about elijah cummings' life, this guy graduated phi beta kappa. a genius who cared so much about others. and i think there is so much in him that embodies leadership that embodies good character, good nature that we are so desperately missing in this country today. so my hope is to are that we sort of see a resemblance. >> you served as cabinet secretary, congressman cummings, he was an early supporter of the
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president's 2008 presidential bid, the congressman had a photo of the two men hanging in the office in his office on capitol hill. you served as a staffer on the oversight committee overlapping elijah cummings for a period of time. talk about your reflections and memories. >> you know, serving as the oversight chair really is one of the hardest jobs in congress. you have to have great courage because you are investigating some of the most powerful people in the world. you have to be tenacious. you also have to understand that you are going to come under attack. and you have to have a prosecutor's thinking. and i think about this past summer when the president attacked baltimore, attacked elijah cummings, congressman cummings didn't respond with an insult. he extended the olive branch and said, mr. president, we met to talk about the problems of inner cities. i still want to work with you on those issues. >> and as good of a gentleman as he was and as big of a man as he was, it does i think, aaron, sort of capture the smallness of
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the president's language. the president of the united states saying he came from this rodent, rat-nested city to try to disparage democrats. but it was taken as a personal insult and so many of his constituents there, the president nothing scheduled for him to go to the hill at any point tomorrow. those plans could change. we have received out to the white house as well. but it is that sort of disconnect between president trump and a man, you know, like elijah cummings that a lot of people are noticing and focusing on. >> i think if you compare the president's relationship with cummings to cummings' relationship with mark meadows, which everybody's focusing on, obviously mark meadows is not just the president's ally. he is the chairman of the house freedom caucus, a group of very conservative republicans. i think if there is one thing that this era has shown us, it's that it's not necessarily that people can't get along because they're so partisan. people like meadows and cummings are at completely opposite ends of the spectrum here. i think where we've got this disconnect is people on opposite
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ends don't trust one another. and i think that's what people thought with cummings was even trey dowdy who worked with him and had some very contentious hearings, he always believed that elijah cummings was always operating on good faith. >> the first african-american lawmaker ever to lie in state at the capitol. those again live pictures this evening as many americans and friends of elijah cummings come to pay their respects. when we come back, we will talk about the democratic field with the iowa caucuses now just 14 weeks away. >> i am just reminded of a conversation that i had with my 10-year-old niece this weekend. she said uncle elijah, 10 years old now, uncle elijah, are they going to put us in cages? are they going to put us in cages? that's coming from a 10-year-old.
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votes in the 2020 democratic primary will be cast just 14 weeks from now in iowa in a brand new poll coming from that state paints an interesting picture of the race there. look at these numbers. they're worth looking at twice. senator elizabeth warren in the lead 28%. followed by mayor pete buttigieg at 20. senator sanders at 18. and look who's in fourth. vice president biden at 12 percentage points right now. the national polls generally look pretty good for joe biden even as elizabeth warren is beating him in some of them right now. but, aaron, it doesn't matter what the national polls look like. one source said one worth of year's campaigning means nothing on the day after iowa. >> so first off, other polls aren't quite so dire for joe biden. i think it's important to note that. he is losing ground to some degree, especially to elizabeth warren in other polls. the second thing is, though, there is a reason his campaign is talking about south carolina.
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there is a reason they are talking about a firewall on super tuesday where they're going to have this big organization. they can really take advantage of that. you talk about those things when you're worried about what happens in iowa. when you're worried about new hampshire which is neighboring both elizabeth warren and bernie sanders. >> it does outline potential risk, which is that some moderates after watching joe biden's performances in the debates, saying look we got to find other options. >> if the main argument of your candidacy is i am the guy who can defeat donald trump and you can't win in those two states, i've been in those places with carson. i've been in those places with mitt romney. i can tell you they are critical. if you lose in those two places, voters in other states will say, wait a minute here, i should look at a candidate who can actually win. so then the argument of i am the best candidate starts to dissipate because people start to look elsewhere. >> what's it say about pete buttigieg as well? >> solid, consistent, and he's clearly invested in a ground
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game, right? because the other thing that's interesting about this poll is they survey the same group of people each time. so this is showing that fluctuation and movement based on retail politics, based on organizing locally. >> chris, how many people got a ticket out of iowa and some real momentum? >> let me just say this. we as democrats have always thought iowa is the bell weather for how the race should be. look at the last three winners of the republican caucuses. ted cruz, rick santorum, mike huckabee. same predictive value this time around. >> talk about the money, though. joe biden's money numbers haven't been so good. he's going to have to prove some advantage there to keep himself looking strong and viable going forward. we're going to be right back after a short break. we're going to be right back after a short break. let me tell,
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my thanks to juanita toliver, michael singleton and also to our friend, who else was here? chris lou was here. "meet the press daily" with chuck todd starts right now. welcome to thursday. it's "meet the press daily" and good evening i'm chuck todd here in washington. where the nats are up 2-0 and where this impeachment quiinqui is going to have to go public. the democrats would like to wrap all this up before the iowa caucuses or else it will wreak havoc on their presidential primaries. so after bill taylor's bomb shell testimony this week, both sides are on the

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