united states capitol. we wanted to mark the occasion and show that to you. and msnbc's coverage will continue of that tomorrow. and that does it for our program tonight. thank you as always for watching. "hardball" with chris matthews is up next. no defense. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. with iron clad evidence of wrongdoing by the president, his republican allies are left with no defense. so they've turned to street theater, anything to not deal with the facts and the facts are damning. a little later in this show i'll walk through the very clear, very simple case against the president. for all the sound and fury from the president's defenders the case that trump traded his public trust for personal political gain is remarkably

pure. republican frustration, however, was evident in yesterday's made for tv spectacle as a group of house republicans made by trump loyalists stormed the secure room where deputy defense secretary was scheduled to testify. "the new york times" editorial board put it bluntly, they're running out of options. "the times" reports on the effort to grind proceedings to a halt. quote, republicans are growing increasingly uneasy about the inquiry and fretting that it could get much more worse for them. that unease was evident again today as senator lindsey graham introduced a senate resolution cosponsored by majority leader mitch mcconnell to condemn the house impeachment inquiry. >> what's happened is that the intent to open up an inquiry of impeachment against president trump failed miserably so they created a new process that i think is very dangerous for the

country. >> well, the majority of senate republicans now 46 have gotten in the line. they've cosponsored the resolution, but notably seven have not. look at those. those are the holds outs. they may end up being the profiles in courage, we don't know. senator collins and the rest of them, that group has not signed into this effort to basically short circuit the whole process. the associated press reports that white house officials have been treating unified republican support for trump as a given have grown increasingly fearful of gop defections in a house impeachment vote and a potential senate trial itself. it adds the west wing believes more must be done to shore up republican support to avoid embarrassment and genuine political peril. yesterday the number two house republican steve scalise complained about the process. >> it's a process we've been highly critical of, the fact that it's closed to the public,

the fact that members of congress that aren't on the relevant communities don't have access to the transcripts of the hearings. maybe they do that in soviet union, but that's not acceptable in the united states of america. >> the soviet union had four dozen -- there they are -- four dozen republicans in those hearings, in those secret hearings in the capitol the last several days. as i said almost four dozen republican members do have access to their membership on those three committees leading their inquiry. oversight committee, foreign affairs and intelligence. that means almost one quarter of house republicans are already in there able to attend those depositions. the republican escalation and complaints, however, about the inquiry comes just days after president trump issued a call for republicans to get tougher. and their effort with yesterday's stunt wasn't lost with president trump. in a tweet this morning he thanked house republicans for being tough, smart and understanding in detail the

greatest witch hunt in american history. for more i'm joined by jill colvin, white house reporter for the associated press. jason johnson, politics editor at the roots.com, and david frum, senior editor at the atlantic. give us a sense of republicans -- coming up with seven hold outs is pretty dramatic in this environment. >> what's going on right now are team exercises. i hope you've never had the experience of being on a losing team, but when your team is facing a big deficit in strength and power -- >> i've been root frg the philadelphia phillies all myiar with it. >> so you dump gatorade on everyone's heads because the other guys are meaner and stronger and faster than you. that is the situation the republicans are in. they had john thune saying, gee, i don't know about this. mitch mcconnell published an

op-ed dissenting. >> it seems to me they're doing harassment of the whole operation, but the whole technique back in inreagan era was change the subject, not from who's right, who's wrong but what side are you on, you change the subject. are you republican, then get in line. this isn't about guilt, it's about loyalty to the party. >> that's a little what you've seen the president doing the last couple of days where he's sort of said republicans, i need you behind me, you need to fight harder. you've got to stand behind me. he's been making that public cry. what you've seen this week is finally a recognition by the white house. remember a month ago you had the white house saying we don't need a war room, that would be suggesting there was something a problem here, and now this week you've seen a concerted effort by the white house to try an

outreach to members. we had mick mulvaney this weekend at camp david with members trying to loop them in, setup calls, trying to get everybody onboard. of course they'll still got a very, very long way to go. you've still got trump allies outside the building very concerned about it. >> jason, there's an old phrase when the dogs bark the caravan moves on. i like sports metaphors, but here the call has been made. they've got the case. the president traded his public trust for personal political gain. it's on the record. mulvaney accepted it, you've got a transcript of it. i don't know -- you can beat the drums all you want, you can bark all you want, that's done. so what are they doing? are they delaying, distracting it? seemed like street theater yesterday. >> it's a little bit of performance art to use a sports metaphor. they're up there -- exactly. because part of it is also to intimidate their colleagues and show we're willing to do

anything. and part of this i think concerns and dacondolences, nan pelosi the house speaker was out yesterday. i don't think they would have tried this if pelosib had been around. but i think this is about what's happening in that building. i think this is about scary democrats and letting them know we will make this as loud and ugly and ruliidiculous as possi. >> i think they have a case. here's the argument i would say, you go to a suburban republican, here's the argument, national defense, national security. this president compromised that to get some dirt on joe biden. >> that's the argument and you've seen the republicans trying to do the same thing going to moderate house seats where, you know, districts where the president won in 2016 and a democrat won in 2018 and saying, really, is this what you elected this person to do?

pursue impeachment? don't you want them to talk about health care and issues that really impact you? >> yesterday's mock sit in, house republicans complained the private nature of the proceedings is unfair. >> this is a soviet-style impeachment process. >> the american people as i said before, they understand fairness, and they instinctively know what is happening here is not fair. >> this a process lacking legitimacy, credibility and fairness. >> by golly, if they're going to do it, do it in public. >> by golly. many of the same republicans had no problems with closed door meetings when they were used of course during the benghazi investigation. remember that? here's how the chairman of the select committee trey gowdy described it back in 2015. >> i can just tell you of the 50 some odd interviews we have done thus far the vast majority of them have been private, and you don't see the bickering among

the members of congress in private interviews. you don't see any of that. i can just tell you in the private interviews there is never any of what you saw thursday. it is one hour on the republican side, one hour on the democrat side, which is why you're going to see the next two dozen interviews done privately. the private ones always produce better results. >> you know, there he is trey gowdy describing how you do a really good set of investigative hearings if you want the truth, if you don't want a show, you know? and now he's saying -- it's taped. >> and yrm that was going to be the president's outside lawyer if there hadn't been these rules prohibiting him from serving as a lobbyists, then he actually would have been a member of trump's legal team. >> it's hard for me to hate anybody, but lindsey with his tail wagging the last couple of days, he's been called into service, he's done it, and grabbing people. it's like remember the card

check things with the labor unions? everyone wants to condemn the house hearings now and as we went on-air tonight 46 members of the 53 person republican caucus in the u.s. senate, six holding out. doesn't that make a little bit of a statement either way? >> and this is one of those things, you better have everybody sign before you take any of it public because the game has never been about getting to two thirds of the senate. that's obviously not possible. donald trump is not going to be moved from office by a senate vote. barring some direct divine intervention on the mind of the republican senate caucus. but the question is does donald trump get 54-55 votes for removal? where's mit romney -- >> a majority vote. >> and if lindsey graham gets a majority vote lined up, that's alarming. >> to them. >> so i don't know why he's doing this. you be to have everybody there

on the first day or don't do it. >> if you get 53 votes, majority vote, jill, objectively you have a house vote that could impeach which i think could be about 230, by guess pretty unanimous among democrats, maybe some republicans. and then a majority of the republican controlled senate. that's a condemning statement. >> it would be a striking blow to the president. that's why you see them trying to ramp up the effort. lindsey graham had a conversation with mick mulvaney, the acting chief of staff who of course has his own problems. this is all happening as the white house in turmoil as usually. you need to bring some people on -- >> david frum said you don't start a roll call until you know how it's going to end up. >> pelosi did that. essentially that's what happened. pelosi didn't finally say let's move ahead to impeachment until she knew she had the numbers that were going to look good. even with all those private hearings -- >> by the way, we've got the

guy's opening statement. we've all got it verbatim. >> but the movement for impeachment in the public and not just impeachment but impeachment and removal, those numbers are going up with private hearings. when this goes public it's going to look really bad. >> trump's latest word game, he's going to call impeachment, attempted impeachment. in other words, if the house votes to impeach, he's going to call attempted impeachment. he's playing a game. >> nonetheless, you could still wind up a situation where the president will certainly try it, but he will still be able to stand up there in front of voters come 2020 and say, look, they tried to take me down and they failed to do it, i'm still here. >> you could try that. do you think bill clinton likes to have pin impeached? i'm telling you that's a mark against you, and i'm telling you it will be used against him in the next election. it will not be a plus. >> lindsey graham is plenty smart and he knows this.

if you're using bad arguments it's because you don't have good ones. and he did get john thune to sign the condemnation of the process. that's an easier vote and a way to get people to commit early. >> you know what, there is a process. it's called impeachment. you call the roll. you put articles of impeachment or one article of impeachment before the house and they vote. it's a privilege motion. and you get a majority vote and the president's impeached forever, forever in the history books he is impeached, a little asterisk, impeached. republicans were prepared yesterday to do anything to took to put on a grand performance. a source says some members asked to be arrested citing the optics of being marched out of the skiff in handcuffs in front of throngs of reporters and news cameras. one of them -- i'm sorry, people

can't help what they look like but they were so dull looking and passionless. >> they know this is ridiculous. they know this is show. and here's the thing, what are you actually being arrested for? it's an incement to actually -- >> they look like they're going out for maybe lunch. >> exactly. the young republican convention sort of manching to their latest meeting with the chicken dinners. here's the issue, even if you had got arrested it's not changing how the public feels about this. >> by the way, that's your party there, david. i'm telling you we always say around here democrats fall in love, republicans fall in liep. they look like they were told to line up like at a catholic school recess 2 by 2, no talking. >> what also happened there is some of the hot heads took their phones with them, and some of the hot heads -- the lunk heads said i'm taking my phone with me because i'm going to make a point. and only after they were in did they realize wait a minute

that's really bad. so you saw this hilarious thing where people were tweeting and taking pictures and two hours later saying actually that was my staff, i signaled t staffer did the tweet for me. >> like they're on a destroyer? >> that was obviously untrue. but as jason said there are some realities here, this is morale building exercise. this is all going to be fully public very, very soon and all this will be forgotten. >> we're going to get to that in the rest of the show which is how democrats can hold hearings where you actually have, you know, a smart counsel that actually keeps the focus for a half-hour or two or two hours instead of everybody doing their five minute pop ups. jill colvin, thank you for having us on. jason johnson, always great to have you and david frum, my republican friend. coming up as republicans continue to howl at the moon over the process -- i hate that word -- of the impeachment

inquiry democrats are planning their next steps to play the substance of the manner. maybe they can do this by thanksgiving and with so many doors of the case now open the task of the democrats is to find a way to keep their message simple and pure. as my father-in-law says when you made your case, when you made your sale, stop talking. president trump attempted to abuse his office for personal gain. that's the name of it. plus, it's trump versus the professionals now as devastating testimony from diplomats and career bureaucrats pours in. the impeachment inquiry looks to be the climatic confrontation between the president and his perceived deep state. and finally trump's puzzling statement about where he's building his border wall. >> we're building a wall in colorado. we're building a beautiful wall. >> check your google maps. colorado and the need for a wall in colorado against mexico.

much more coming up to get to. stay with us. up to get to. stay with us you're making good choices. you'll get there. ♪ were you going to tell me about this? i know i can't afford to go. i still have this car so you can afford to go. i am so proud of you. thanks. principal. we can help you plan for that. start today at principal.com. i am totally blind. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424.

you ever wish you weren't a motaur? sure. sometimes i wish i had legs like you. yeah, like a regular person. no. still half bike/half man, just the opposite. oh, so the legs on the bottom and motorcycle on the top? yeah. yeah, i could see that. for those who were born to ride, there's progressive.

welcome back to "hardball." tonight the framework and the time frame for a possible impeachment vote is coming into focus. that's as democrats face a challenging calendar. according to "the washington post" the goal was for the house to vote on articles of impeachment before thanksgiving, which leaves house democrats five weeks now to wrap this up. multiple democratic officials tell "the washington post," that, quote, they hope to finish private depositions in early november so they can use the two-week work period just before than thanksgiving to public hearings. among the witnesses the democrats are hoping to question those are the acting ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor, the former ambassador marie yovanovitch, and perhaps the

president's former national security advisor john bolton. i'm joined by jackie spear -- and the former chief of staff to house speaker nancy pelosi. you're all over the place with these hearings but i guess my fear is can you keep the train moving or will the republican harassment tactics or democrats who get a little too excited about other opportunities move the focus from what the president did, trade public trust for personal interest? keep the focus, can you do it? >> oh, i think there's no question we will do that. he abused the office of the president and he placed us at risk for national security, and those two efforts by him created a situation where soliciting which is illegal, soliciting a

foreign government to intervene in our national election is a crime. and i think we're very focused on that. we're not going to allow the republicans to play their little antics once again, and if necessary we will take these interviews off the hill to prevent that kind of charade that went on yesterday. >> let me ask you about how you do that. >> we could go to a secure facility off the hill, which would then make it more difficult for them to play the games. but, you know, what was really interesting in all that yesterday was the fact that it was a show. i mean, i walked in there at one point after they'd been there for a few hours, they were sitting around like a coffee clash in that room having conversations. there were 17 boxes of pizza strewn around, and it was all, you know, jocular. it was really a shame. and it reflects poorly, i think, on the process and certainly on

their efforts. because they can't win on the issues so they're going to try and argue process. >> we were all impressed by the performance of barry burke, the state counsel the other day. and i know we're not politicians because we're not there, but all these members of these committees especially senior members who earned their seniority want their five minutes. but the problem is it's like basketball, it's always going to the other side for five minutes and the republicans have no interest in coherence. >> that's right. >> is there any way to streamline these hearings so you have some coherent -- however you do it -- coheerrent set of questions so the witness can star? >> i have no doubt they have to work on that and they will work on that. this is too grave of a situation to actually sit down and put some rules on paper. >> remember sam dash in the hearings, the prosecutor? >> yeah, absolutely. and if you have to go down that

route you will. but there are members who spent hours, days, months in this hearing from witnesses, listening to information and reading. and sometimes they do have a right to participate in these hearings, but how do they do it? who's going to ask what question? what points are you trying to make to the american people? >> let me ask you congresswoman, you've earned your position on that committee, those are hard assignments to get. how would the members react to the idea of a coherent investigation or examination of these witnesses by a prosecutor, a staff prosecutor? >> the process that we have used in these private interviews has really allowed the expert attorneys that have made their lives by questioning people, we've allowed them to be the point person and ask the question. an hour by the democrats, an

hour by the republicans and back and forth in that regard. and occasionally we will add additional questions at the end of a particular hour. >> i was distressed and i assume you were congresswoman by what happened on the judiciary, where it got to the point cory lewandowski put on a show. he won the day. he put on a peter pan operation, whatever you want to call it and everyone is like that's great, he's crazy, he's like trump. how do you avoid that happening again where the clown show takes over? >> i don't think there's going to be a clown show. i think the witnesses going to be called are compelling. we've seen much of their testimony already by the statements that many of them have already released. i mean, this is a very talented pool of career persons within the foreign service who have come forward under subpoena and have told us what they know. and what they know is very

damning. >> so i want to now play a bad guy. mr. taylor, mr. ambassador, who'd you vote for in 2016? >> i didn't vote in 2016. >> he didn't vote? >> i don't know. >> this is the kind of questions that the democrats are going to have to be prepared for and witnesses are going to have to be prepared for. this is serious, serious matter. >> i like this, congresswoman. i love having you on the show. according to the latest nbc wall street journal poll a majority of americans are aware of the impeachment investigation, 79% of the american people, just about 4 out of 5 say they've seen coverage of trump's july phone collin which he asked the ukrainian leader to do him a favor. so it seems to me the idea of what are you really going to accomplish with more hearings if

it's up to 79% that people know what's going on? >> i think what's going to be important is to hear from a number of the foreign service personnel that were scratching their heads when they were watching what was in fact a shadow foreign policy operation under rudy giuliani. and i think that their testimony is going to be very important. and i think you're going to be impressed by what you hear. >> thank you so much. congresswoman jackie spear of california. up next, you were the top aid of nancy pelosi. she's looking very good. building an airtight impeachment case against trump. that's coming up. how democrats are working overtime to put together an iron clad case for removing this guy from office. you're watching "hardball." thi from office. you're watching "hardbal l. when you shop with wayfair,

you spend less and get way more. so you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one.

for small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. shop everything home at wayfair.com

dimitri's on it. eating right? on it! getting those steps in? on it! dimitri thinks he's doing all he can to manage his type 2 diabetes and heart disease, but is his treatment doing enough to lower his heart risk? [sfx: glasses clanking.] sorry. maybe not. jardiance is the number 1 prescribed pill in its class. jardiance can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. that means jardiance can help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. plus, jardiance lowers a1c and it could help you lose some weight. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration, genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. a rare, but life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, ketoacidosis, or an allergic reaction. do not take jardiance if you are on dialysis

or have severe kidney problems. taking jardiance with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. lower a1c and lower risk of a fatal heart attack? on it... with jardiance. ask your doctor about jardiance. the type 2 diabetes pill that's on it. learn more at jardiance.com welcome back to "hardball." we're one month into the house impeachment inquiry already and the house case against donald trump is as straightforward as it gets. simply put the president trade his public trust for personal gain. and all the evidence and testimony gathered so far has bolstered this central charge that trump squeezed the government of ukraine for dirt on his democratic opponents, namely joe biden. and that's the so-called favor trump asked of ukrainian president zelensky confirmed by a white house summary of their phone call and by the way confirmed by the testimony of

his chief of staff mick mulvaney. bilateral meetings and phone calls were dangled as leverage in pursuit of that so-called deliverable. and most alarming crucial military aid to ukraine was abruptly cut off to get the message across. even the president's chief of staff brazenly admitted and worst yet it was made clear ambassador bill taylor it all paints a picture of the president's abuse of power. i'm joined now by natasha bertrand, and david corn, washington bureau chief from mother jones. this is tough case to deny. when you're chief of staff says, yeah, there was a quid pro quo there, when you have a transcript it's pretty hard to deny it. >> yeah, and i think that's why

republicans now are coming out and making waves about the process instead of the substance. you even saw lindsey graham today say, look, i'm not trying to defend the president or say what he did was right, i'm just sayi saying what the democrats did was wrong in terms of processing. but republicans, trying to get them to comment on the actual substance of the allegations which was that the president abused his office in order to obtain dirt on a political rival from a foreign power, it's pretty much impossible. there are a few that will stand behind him until the end, but when it comes down to the nitty-gritty saying we talk about trading favors all the time with foreign countries, that's not what happened here. what happened was that the president was doing this in order for his own political interests, not the national interests. >> one thing we learned about the republicans going back to the recount of 2008 they'll come up with any argument, even democratic arguments like equal protection. they were never interested in

equal protection until florida. and they'll come up with this thing, the trey gowdy, and they just pushed that aside now with trey gowdy saying the secret hearings are the way to get good testimony. >> of course, during the russia investigation when republicans controlled the house intelligence committee they had dozens of depositions of jared kushner and others they did secretly and never had public hearings. at least the house intelligence committee now says we will get the public hearings. and the key thing here and it's coming from nancy pelosi, she has the kiss strategy, keep it simple stupid. she wants the impeachment case to be based just on what you said, chris. a very straightforward narrative. she doesn't want a lot of sideshows but what's happening and natasha knows this because she's been reporting on this, as the committees investigate and more and more witnesses and see more and more documents they're finding more and more wrongdoing and more and more investigative leads to follow. so they have to have the discipline per nancy pelosi to say we're not going to go down there, we don't want this to be

as complicated as the robert mueller report. >> i'm challenging that because i think a lot of it, natasha, they're goietting a lot of confirmation. >> they're getting month. >> bill taylor, you know, this guy has got all the ribbons from what he's done, and there he is walking along there. that's a ghost right there for trump. this guy is the one he must fear the most. >> yeah, and actually democrats have been surprised by the voluminous testimony they've gotten from some of these witnesses because the state department and white house have actually been instructing these witness and the pentagon for that matter not to testify at all. so the fact so many of these career officials defying congress and exercising their right as citizens to tell lawmakers what they've been experiencing has been a please want surprise for democrats. so they are eager to keep this ball rolling and so how many more witnesses they can bring in

and get as much evidence as possible they can lay out in public hearings and amountimately amounultimately in the articles of impeachment. >> now sondland's attorney tell "the washington post" that his client, sondland, does not recall such a conversation as taylor described among others. according to his attorneys sondland's position is he also opposed a quid pro quo saying sondland strongly opposed the cut off of aid and believed it should be restored unconditionally. this guy, sondland, there's , but he paid a million bucks to his ambassadorship to the eu, but he's not really a trump guy. so when trump gets in trouble he says i'm not getting entangled in that crime and he starts hiring his lawyer in the way out of this thing. >> when this all began it happened because trump was creating this secondary channel that involved sondland and

giuliani. sondland was not acting in sort of his by the book role as ambassador to europe. so he knew at the very least there was something shadowy about the shadow foreign policy. he says he doesn't know it was a quid pro quo. taylor has i'm told very extensive notes. there may be other witnesses, other documents. so i don't think sondland's word right now which has shifted back and forth a bit in the past couple of weeks is really something to rely upon if you're donald trump. >> it does seem like everybody has to worry about their own cya. he wants to pi himsebuy himself. >> rudy giuliani, the president's personal lawyer had been on the air waves for months ramping up this rhetoric and say

that burisma and biden and all this corruption has to be investigated bayoucrine ay ukra exonerate the president. >> are you a lawyer? how far can you get with this? >> you can get pretty far. they've been very loyal and his lawyers have come out and said he agrees with taylor of virtually everything except that one little piece of the quid pro quo. so they're only trying to carve out one -- >> can nancy pelosi keep the focus on the crime, the impeachable act? >> i think she and adam schiff can. the question is going to be when it gets to the judiciary committee that does the articles of impeachment, whether there's any pressure from democrats to add other things to the mix. >> they've done a great job of keeping it really narrow andtail tailored. and whether it is involved in the impeachment inquiry they're

quick to shoot that down. put the other question is can they keep up the momentum. >> yeah, i think the question is can you walk and chew gum at the same time. just walk. coming up, next white house press secretary stephanie grisham doubles down on trump's i don't think like the phrase but here it is, human scum tweet. as it frustrated trump continues to battle damning testimony from advisers. "hardball" back after this. advisers "hardball" back after this i took your advice and asked my doctor to order cologuard, that noninvasive colon cancer screening test. the delivery guy just dropped it off. our doctor says it uses advanced science. it's actually stool dna technology that finds 92 percent of colon cancers. no prep, and private. colon cancer screening that's as easy as get, go, gone. ask your doctor if cologuard is right for you. covered by medicare and most major insurers. doprevagen is the number oneild mempharmacist-recommendeding?

memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. i am totally blind. and non-24 can make me show up too early... or too late. or make me feel like i'm not really "there." talk to your doctor, and call 844-234-2424.

welcome back to "hardball." president trump has a new name for people in his own party who have the audacity to speak out against him -- human scum. that's his phrase, and that's what he wrote on twitter a day after the damning testimony of veteran diplomat william taylor. taylor accused -- trump accused taylor of being one of those disloyal republican scum. this morning the president's pres secretary whose salary is

paid pie american taxpayers went on "fox & friends" to defend the use of that phrase. >> a couple of things, the president yesterday called the never-trumpers scum. does he regret that? >> no. no, he shouldn't. the people who are against him and have been working against him since the day they took office are just that. it is horrible that people are working against a president who's delivering results for this country and has been since day one. and the fact that people continue to try to negate anything that he's doing and take away from the good work he's doing on behalf of the american people, they deserve strong language like that. >> strong language, human scum. ambassador taylor joined nine other current and former government officials who have broken with the white house to testify in the house impeachment inquiry. in so doing they run the risk of being labeled part of the deep state, a smear that donald trump has long used against career government officials. >> we're directly taking on the

unholy alliance of corrupt democrat politicians, deep state bureaucrats and the fake news media. there they are right there. for the last three years democrat lawmakers, their deep state cronies, the fake news media, they've pin colluding in their effort to overturn the presidential election. then you have the deep state. we're getting rid of a lot of them. i'll tell you, we're finding them left and right. >> president trump who never previously served in public office or in the military of course is known to demand personal loyalty which most career public servants aren't willing to offer him. and that's why witnesses in the impeachment inquiry itself have raised alarms about a rogue diplomatic effort led by rudy giuliani that surcomvented proper channels. the president has taken to using words like scum and spy against

the people he views as disloyal to him. after the break i'm going to talk to two veteran public servants, people who have spent most of their careers serving democratic and republican administrations. they have a lot to say about the president's attacks. and that's coming up next. eside. and that's coming up next. never. too shabby! too much! too perfect! i can rent this? for that price? absolutely. what is this, some kind of fairy tale? it's just right! book your just right rental at thrifty.com. oh! baby bear! there's so much scent in new gain scent blast detergent...

...you'll either love it or... mmm... i guess not. new gain scent blast. love it or hate it. it's intense. can't imagine doing it any other way. this is caitlin dickerson from the new york times. this isn't the only case. very little documentation. lo que yo quiero estar con mi hijo. i know that's not true. and the shelters really don't know what to do with them. i just got another person at d.h.s. to confirm this. i have this number. we're going to publish the story. i have this number. hey allergy muddlers...

achoo! ...do your sneezes turn heads? try zyrtec... ...it starts working hard at hour one... and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. zyrtec muddle no more. corrupt president in our nation's history. when i called for his impeachment two years ago, washington insiders and every candidate for president said it was too soon. but i believed then, as i do now, that doing the right thing was more important than political calculations. and over eight million people agreed. we proved that there is no challenge that americans can't meet when we work together. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message. if ylittle thingsate tcan be a big deal.,

that's why there's otezla. otezla is not a cream. it's a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. welcome back to "hardball." president trump's attacks on public servants is part of a larger war fomented in part by

far right media and conspiracy theorists who have gained favor with the president. that's according to "the new york times" which reports those public servants feel denigrated, side lined or forced out of job by a president who marinates in suspicion. as a result the trump administration has lost nearly 1,200 senior career service employees. for more i'm joined by andraya kenldal taylor, a former officer who worked in the obama and trump administrations, and daniel fried. what are people who have devoted their lives to public service including the foreign servants feel when you have a president who calls them deep state and calls them spies and terms like -- well, they get worse. >> i served my career in the intelligence community for almost a decade. and i can say when you have a

president in the white house who doesn't take seriously the intelligence community, who doesn't value the intelligence, it runs the risk of shutting down really the innovative thinking that the intelligence community does that keep americans safe. it has a very chilling effect, and i think that's something all americans should be worried about. >> what about the people overseas who sometimes end up as stars on the wall at langly because they're killed overseas, because they're deep undercover and they have to risk their lives every day and now you have a president trashing their very existence? >> well, the state department has a wall with the names of the fallen. and when i joined the foreign service in 1977 those names were abstractions, but there have been new names since, and some of those people were friends. shot in an ambush in georgia, they are ready to give their lives. that's part of the job. i'm not complaining about the dangers, but a little respect for the people who are out there defending america's interests and advancing our foreign

policy. and they don't need to be treated this way. >> like the guy who was blown up in his driveway a couple of years ago in jordan i remember. >> the risks are there. that's part of the job. not asking -- the foreign service people don't ask for special favors or people to feel sorry for them. we know what we're signing up for. but a little respect for the people who take the oath of office seriously. loyalty, that's part of the culture. i served president obama, i served president bush, i served president clinton. pretty much did the same kinds of things for all of them. and they respected the apolitical nature of the foreign service. they didn't really care. in fact if rice heard anybody make a partisan remark of the state department she wouldn't get mad, she could get glacial. she set a tone to loyalty of respect of service and to

country first. >> i think the political aspect is crucial in this context. as intelligence officers we are trained throughout our careers to check politics at the door. we are trained to take account of our assumptions. we are trained to address cognitive biases and factors that could clog objective analysis, and that's what's happening here including with the whistle blowers. these are people trained in that analytic trade craft, when they saw a risk to national security they had an obligation to step forward and to warn. >> what do you hear when you hear the phrase "deep state?" >> that's nonsense. >> what does it mean? >> it means some kind of -- it's supposed to mean some kind of weird cabal of disloyalty, which is not the reality. the fact is foreign service people -- the culture of the foreign service is loyalty. and they work for condy rice,

hillary clinton. reagan had a secretary of state george schultz enlist the expertise of the foreign service and the result was we got the best soviet policy we ever had and won the cold war. because the foreign service will salute and march. they want the leadership, and the notion they're disloyal is some weird political, you know, mythology. all administrations come into power with a little bit of this attitude, but it mostly wears off. not this time, though. >> yeah, and i mean for the role of the intelligence community, the intelligence community is we don't serve any particular president, we serve the american people. and i think the thing so concerning about the deep state narrative is it really does pose a threat to american democracy. and i can tell you when you look across the dploeb, this deep state, this effort by the president to create or inflate a sense of threat is something

that you see authoritarian leaders use across the globe. it creates joifgds fustificatio leaders to dismantle institutions and i'm concerned that's what we see at this point. >> trump is basically saying, if you choose to serve the united states government, you're an enemy of the country. it's outrageous, but that's what he's saying. you're an enemy of the country if you work for the country. >> what does a strong country consist of? it's got to have not just a strong man at the top but strong independent institutions. that's national strength. that serve the president and the elected leaders but andrea is right. when i hear that kind of denigrating language weakening i institutions, that's communism. i know what the result of that is and it's not good. >> thank you, sir. thank you for your service to our country. thank you very much.

>> thank you. >> it's great to have this back and forth here. up next, president trump wants to build a wall around colorado. think about your grade school geography now. around colorado. you're watching "hardball." y no. around colorado. you're watching "hardball. i thought i was managing my moderate to severe ulcerative colitis. but i realized something was missing... me. the thought of my symptoms returning was keeping me from being there for the people and things i love most. so, i talked to my doctor and learned humira can help get, and keep, uc under control when other medications haven't worked well enough. and it helps people achieve control that lasts so you could experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common,

and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you, and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible. i get it all the time. "have you lost weight?" of course i have- ever since i started renting from national. because national lets me lose the wait at the counter... ...and choose any car in the aisle. and i don't wait when i return, thanks to drop & go. at national, i can lose the wait...and keep it off. looking good, patrick. i know. (vo) go national. go like a pro. do your asthma symptoms ever hold you back? about 50% of people with severe asthma have too many cells called eosinophils in their lungs. eosinophils are a key cause of severe asthma.

fasenra is designed to target and remove these cells. fasenra is an add-on injection for people 12 and up with asthma driven by eosinophils. fasenra is not a rescue medicine or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra is proven to help prevent severe asthma attacks, improve breathing, and can lower oral steroid use. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth, and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. haven't you missed enough? ask an asthma specialist about fasenra. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help.

that could allow hackers devices into your home.ys and like all doors, they're safer when locked. that's why you need xfinity xfi. with the xfi gateway, devices connected to your homes wifi are protected. which helps keep people outside from accessing your passwords, credit cards and cameras. and people inside from accidentally visiting sites that aren't secure. and if someone trys we'll let you know. xfi advanced security. if it's connected, it's protected. well, here we have the president of these 50 states

promising to build a wall around 1 of them. >> you know why we're going to win new mexico, because they want safety on their border, and they didn't have it. and we're pibuilding a wall on e border of new mexico. and we're building a wall in colorado. we're building a beautiful wall, a big one that really works, that you can't get over, you can't get under. and we're building a wall in texas. and we're not building a wall in kansas, but they get the benefit of the walls we just mentioned. >> well, the problem is we learned in grade school is that colorado isn't located on our border with mexico. it's up there surrounded by utah, wyoming, kansas, new mexico, nebraska, arizona and oklahoma. so that's a problem. and today no surprise the president attempted to say he was kidding. that's his word, when he pushed for building a wall around

colorado. does this look like someone's who's kidding? >> we're bidding a wall in colorado. we're building a beautiful wall. >> in fact, when he suggests this is all a joke he's veering very close to describing his presidency. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> the president yesterday called the never-trumpers scum. does he regret that? >> as the president lashes out, and his defenders break out the charts. >> after that inquiry -- >> new reporting that the impeachment inquiry will be televised. >> that's what congressman schiff is doing, and he's following the rules. >> tonight the democratic plans to go public, new evidence of corruption as it pertains to ukraine, and new questions about what the white house was asking china to produce. >> you're asking me what happens in the white house behind closed