now announced he's suing the city to get his job back and his pension. yes. these are things that make people keep standing up. saying that all police are not bad. we don't even say most are. but those that are wrong must pay in terms of being held accountable. otherwise, we have to continue the struggle to make this nation what it should be. that does it for me. thanks for watching. i'll see you back here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern for a new live edition of "politicsnation." up next, nbc live coverage continues with my colleague richard lui. >> and thank you, rev. hello, everyone. i'm richard lui. live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. thanks for being with us this day. we're following three major stories for you from coast to coast. washington is where we're starting. a rare weekend deposition in the impeachment inquiry that continues this hour.

then in south carolina, joe biden is still speaking at a controversial criminal justice reform event there. we've also watched in california, crews battling hundreds of wildfires right now and we've got correspondents in this all. first off, we're going to start members of the committees involved in the impeachment inquiry working into the night on the east coast. it's their first saturday deposition as they ramp up their work. it is from phillip reeker today. he remains behind closed doors at the moment. he is giving testimony under subpoena. now, i think hour 8 is what we're counting and it could wrap up at any moment. now, reeker's testimony is important here to the impeachment investigation. there are several reasons to consider. first off, he can shed some light on communications he had with key officials about efforts by president trump and rudy giuliani to pressure ukraine into investigating political enemies. he can also speak to what secretary of state mike pompeo

knew and when he knew it. and then just overnight, a legal filing that both leader pelosi and the president are keeping an eye on. former trump national security advisor charles cooperman is scheduled to appear monday for an inquiry. but his lawyer wants clarification from the court as to who he should listen to. congress or the white house. who want him to refuse to appear. and all this in the wake of a crucial court ruling in the last 24 hours. a federal judge in strong words dismissing the republican argument that the impeachment inquiry is illegitimate. that essentially rules that democrats now have every right to continue the inquiry even without a formal house vote. plus, the doj must turn over now in this ruling the relevant grand jury evidence from the mueller report to the house judiciary committee. that request months old now. all right. >> let's start with our panel. first, we're going to go to leanne caldwell.

we've been watching what is happening with phillip reeker. and you've seen one republican so far that has gone for this deposition. do we expect this to finish soon? >> we do think that it's actually winding down. that it should finish at least in the next couple hours. but we're getting a few details that are emerging from what is being said behind closed doors. what we know is that phillip reeker did talk about the ouster of the well-respected ukrainian ambassador, marie yovanovitch. that's according to a source very close with his testimony. we're also hearing that he also discussed about the role of mike pompeo. and that he also talked about the three amigos and those are energy secretary rick perry, eu ambassador sondland, and special envoy volker. these are the three people that were put in place from the -- by the administration -- after

yovanovitch was ousted and recalled back to the united states. and they are the shadow state department that was starting to run ukraine policy for the united states. so as we are hearing a little bit of these details, we're also hearing kind of what republicans and democrats think about what's being said. now, both republicans and democrats are saying that he is really corroborating evidence of what previous people who have come behind these closed doors have said. that we've heard from other witnesses. now, republicans are downplaying it saying that there's nothing -- there was no big revelation here. that this is just -- just another kind of wasted witchhunt really. well, democrats, meanwhile, they say that he is adding to the evidence. he's -- he's corroborating what other people have said just building, continuing to build this case against this president. and so it isn't winding down

definitely but we're -- we're just in the middle of all of these depositions that are going to last at least another week, richard. >> well, as you have and you don't have to do it for a week but today, if we do see an end to reeker's testimony, we'll go right back to you there on capitol hill. leanne caldwell reporting from capitol hill. thanks again. we'll touch base with you little bit later. former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst glenn kershner. and natalie andrews and daily beats columnist jonathan alter. glen kesh nesn kershner, this i question of what the federal judge did in the last 24 hours. if you're watching this if you're nancy pelosi, leader pelosi or the president of the united states, you are watching this decision this ruling, this opinion that came down from this federal judge. 70 pages long. what are you taking away from it, glenn? >> you know, richard, i've got the opinion right here and i've been going through it. and, you know, you can read the headings alone and it reads like

a who's who of knocking down the republican arguments. and it really -- it's a dramatic piece of work and i think it will serve as a guide now in the -- in the event the appellate court is asked to take up the same question. but just reading some of the headings alone, richard, there are sections that say and i quote, disclosure of these materials is necessary to avoid injustice. that's one of the sections. there's a section that it says, the house judiciary committee has a particularized need for these requested materials. and i won't go on to read them all but there's another section. the heading of which is, no house impeachment inquiry resolution is required. and we have heard the republicans complaining over and over again about how there needs to be this official vote on a

resolution. the judge, chief judge barrel howell said wrong under the law. i've been saying all along, richard, the state of our judiciary is strong and judge howell just proved that once again with this really thorough, authoritative, 75-page order. >> one of those statements, not a long sentence, she says, doj is wrong. in three words, no more than that. natalie, if you look at the headline coming out of that particular opinion and also what leanne was telling us as reeker is on the hill, does this empower the democrats leading the inquiry, adam schiff, the chair at the moment, might we expect a pickup in depositions that he might be requesting after this opinion comes down -- came down i should say? >> well, democrats are certainly celebrating their victories. i think every time nancy pelosi has spoken publicly, she has mentioned their victories in court as a sign that the judiciary is on their side, as

glenn noted. and when i've been talking to democrats on the hill, they've made note that while they're investigating the ukrainian-focused allegations, this -- they say you should think of the impeachment inquiry as a sort of umbrella and there is various investigations under there that could then be rolled into, say, articles of impeachment. >> and as we look at this, jonathan alter, phillip reeker and right now we're looking at many, many hours as typical of many of the testimonies so far. when you look at how they may be and we're talking about the democrats leading the inquiry, what are they filling in with phillip reeker today? what part of the puzzle are they trying to put a piece in place? >> well, first of all, we have to understand that ambassador reeker like the others who have testified are part of what you might think of as a patriotic surge. these are career civil servants, career foreign service officers in most cases, who are doing their constitutional duty and

coming forward with mostly corroborating evidence. we know what happened. you know, the crime scene was that call and it's all been verified. everything the whistle-blower's complaint has been verified. but the more you can corroborate it, the more you can nail it down. and also, filling in details that could lead to legal trouble for other players other than president trump. people like rudy giuliani. and they could be in a world of hurt legally and if they are, it will be in part because of some of the testimony we've been hearing in the last week. >> uh-huh. >> it's important to understand that the arguments that the trump white house has are breaking down. the no quid pro quo argument, gone. the no abuse of power argument, gone. the no shakedown withholding of military aid, gone. so now, they're just -- all they have left is the argument that this doesn't rise to the level of impeachment. and that it's not really a

serious crime. which is also not true since they committed extortion in this case. a felony. >> we can probably expect an appeal to happen. part of the opinion, though, is hey, the treasure trove from the mueller report, yeah, you have access to the grand jury -- all -- all the data that's out there right now. this could, as often happens in these investigations, see scope creep that may allow this particular inquiry to go in places they may not have been before, which if you're a critic, you say they shouldn't be doing. >> exactly. you know, the redactions that we saw in both volumes of the mueller report are extremely interesting. and i think they're going to be quite telling when those black bars are lifted. and congress has a more complete appreciation for, among other things, just how much stonewalling went on by -- by trump, by don jr., and by the administration generally. i mean, when you look at some of those redactions, particularly about topics that are often

discussed, like why in the world didn't bob mueller subpoena the president? try to put him before the grand jury. why didn't he do the same for don jr.? well, you're going to notice there are some redactions in those sections that deal with the attempts of special counsel mueller to interview the president, to interview don jr. and, you know, those strategically placed redactions seem to be the exact spot once lifted when we're going to learn that both the president and don jr. very likely invoked their fifth amendment right against self-incrimination. we'll know soon enough once those redactions are lifted. once these materials including the grand jury materials go to congress and congress gets a more full appreciation of what this administration was up to. >> so far, if you count, natalie, 227 democrats in the house supporting the impeachment inquiry. on the republican side, you have a big egg. when you see what happened over the last 24 hours, might that move the needle a little? i'll go to full screen five because if we look at the

polling overall in terms of support for impeachment, you can see from -- the movement, the support going from, well, today 49.1. a month ago, 41. i think we have those opposite to be honest in one category. but if you look at this -- this move -- might we see some of the republicans, one or two, get into a support inquiry? >> it's tough to know now. i think as things move more public, we could certainly -- you know, as depositions are released, i would point to the senate where lindsey graham, his resolution to denounce the impeachment inquiry and the process from the house side. to note, mitt romney and susan collins and lisa murkowski are the last three who haven't signed on. susan collins is a senator in -- facing a really tough re-elect. and we may see a handful of house democrats -- or house

republicans, sorry -- that see that -- see the math. they see the polling in their districts. they are polling right now. they're looking at how their constituents are seeing this inquiry and certainly as this inquiry moves into the public sphere and some of these testimonies are revealed or we see testimony in public, you could certainly see some more republicans think differently if things continue to go as we've seen them so far. >> those numbers were right. i was just looking too quickly in terms of the trending for overall support. again, you can see the don't support going down in numbers and then utah. looking at the independent trend. and of course, if you're thinking about running for president or you're thinking of winning in your state if you're a senator, you're going to watch the independent vote and that is full screen six. you can see that there's also a trend that is not in the way that you would want to see in terms when it comes to impeachment inquiry. >> yeah. and, you know, the independents old the balance of power in this

country. obviously, the core 25% trump supporters are the base. they're in the fifth avenue crowd. you know, he can shoot somebody and they wouldn't care. >> here are those numbers for you, by the way. look at that swing. >> very significant number. i think it's important to keep in mind and even though i'm not holding my breath that very many of these republicans are going to change. but if you look back to watergate, it wasn't until the very end that republicans started to peal off. you know, even people like george bush and bob dole. they were not peeling off until just a couple weeks before nixon resigned. and then when the smoking gun came out, then he really had to go. but even in the house judiciary committee, the republicans who ended up voting for one or two articles of impeachment, a month earlier, they weren't going for it. so there is time for some of these republicans to change.

it depends on what they're hearing from home. and that, in turn, depends on the public testimony that's to come starting in about a week or two. you're going to see some of these just big witnesses. like -- like ambassador taylor -- full of credibility. impeccable career. you're going to see them testifying in public. and then when that happens, some of the constituencies might change their minds. >> and the challenge for democrats. can they keep the narrative simple if you're a supporter of impeaching this president? natalie andrews, congressional reporter for the wall street journal. thanks for being here. glenn and jonathan, don't go anywhere. okay. right now, joe biden laying out his policies on criminal justice reform at a forum in south carolina. but another democratic candidate was in the president's crosshairs for threatening to skip that event. and speculation swirling around hilary clinton this week with some suggesting she should get in the race for president. ould t in the race for president.

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we are 100 days out from the iowa caucus if you're counting but right now all eyes are on another battleground state. it holds its primary three weeks later. we're talking about south carolina. democratic contenders are in the state this weekend for the criminal justice forum at the historically black college, benedict college. moments ago, one of the front-runners, former vice president joe biden addressed the crowd. take a listen. >> criminal justice reform is an

issue to unite all americans, not divide americans. everyone understands there are too many people incarcerated. fact of the matter is that 93% of all those incarcerated are incarcerated in county and city and state prisons. and -- and too many of them are women and men of color. >> meanwhile, in a contentious back and forth earlier today, senator kamala harris initially bowed out of the forum in protest after president trump received a bipartisan justice award last night at a benedict college event where reportedly only a limited number of students were allowed to attend. now, that move sparked a twitter feud between the senator and president trump. the president calling her a failing candidate. claiming he's quote, done more than kamala will ever be able to do for african-americans. harris tweeted back, the only part of criminal justice trump can claim credit for is the criminal part. the california senator rejoined the forum after the event

sponsor that gave trump an award was removed. here's harris from the forum. take a listen. >> i said i would not come because i just couldn't -- couldn't believe that donald trump would be given an award as it relates to criminal justice reform. i mean, let's be clear. this is somebody who has disrespected the voices that have been present for decades about the need for reform of this system. >> joining us now, nbc's mike memley from south carolina there at that gathering. former senior advisor to president obama david. charlie psychs. and associate editor, amy stoddard. mike, why don't you start us off here? former vice president just finishing his comments. did he allude at all to that back and forth? and what was his message and how was it received? >> well, richard, i'll start by

saying just as happened a couple hours ago with us, the former vice president just stepping off stage. so i'm going to just scream a little down the hall, mr. vice president, if you want to join us here. but it was so interesting to hear the former vice president. he did, in fact, refer to president trump in some of the controversy over his pafrpgz participation. he talked about how in fact president trump has fanned the fumes of white supremacy, as he put it, and talked about the ways he has stoked the divisions in this country rather than brought the country together. which, of course, has been a theme of the vice president's campaign since he launched it. in terms of his own message here, it's so interesting we often talk about the home field advantage the former vice president does have here in south carolina especially because of his popularity with african-american voters. and part of that is his relationship with president obama. we heard him talk about that. the fact that they had a chance to spend some time yesterday together at the funeral for l elijah cummings. he referred to him as my president. and so that was certainly something that we heard him talk

about often. but in terms of the substance, in terms of his view of criminal justice reform, we've talked a lot about how his support for the 1994 crime bill has been a lienlt for him in the campaign. but they talked throughout this event tonight the importance of one aspect of that legislation. that is community policing. he talked about how that was so critical to reestablishing trust between communities of color and law enforce. but how unfortunately because of its success, because of the fwa fact that violent crime, a lot of municipalities went away from community policing. so it was an opportunity for the vice president to lay out his future plans on criminal justice, as well. >> going to get over to you, if i can, david. is it at this point for the former vice president, especially in south carolina, two reasons why it's important already stated. a swing state, number one. number two, the african-american vote. is the -- is the state and is this key voting block for him to lose?

>> thank you for having me, richard. this is a key voting populous. this -- remarks have come back from the african-american voters that they -- candidates haven't been paying attention to their issues. so being in south carolina, all the candidates being in south carolina today, is the perfect opportunity for them to address the issues that they feel is important to them. if you -- we saw with senator kamala harris yesterday. she pulled out of the forum but she joined today because i think her campaign realized that it's important to have a -- to have a voice at this forum and to be able to address these voters. and vice president biden feels the same. it's a missed opportunity. this is a perfect opportunity would be a missed opportunity not to participate here today. >> ab, you know the polling coming out of the state shows joe biden way ahead at the moment. 33%. this is not the case in other states,as you know. you sica ma ee kamala harris at you got to wonder is she trying to shake the trees here? make a little bit of a headline?

get some more traction. >> oh, no question. kamala harris not in the last debate but the one before spent the entire night talking about donald trump and really trying, i think, to get hime her a nickname and give her some buzz. and she -- she tends to -- i don't think her political instincts are so sharp. she tends to rely on gimmicks and this idea of backing out of this and then coming anyway because she realized it was a mistake speaks to that. she is not gaining traction with african-american voters in south carolina. all these months in. because i don't think that they believe that she can win. this is a block of voters that not only has, you know, biden has endeared himself to them because he was obama's vice president but because they believe that he is likely the most electable of all the democrats running. and they really want to get rid of donald trump. so that's been an interesting durability for him in this early

voting state. he it is not looking good for joe biden in new hampshire and iowa. the whole race could turn there. but he is relying on this firewall of 65% of the voting of the primary electorate in south carolina being african-american. and so far, the polling shows sticking with him because this is, again, his argument is electability and this coalition of voters, non-white college voters, moderates, older voters, older democrats, and african-americans, they continue to support biden because they see him as the most electable. >> you know, interesting as we discuss this here, charlie. did the president get the media win out of this very gathering to focus on the african-american community? and in this case, justice. >> well, i don't think among african-american voters because donald trump has told african-american voters over and over again who he is. and there was a recent poll earlier this month showing that 4% -- i think 4% of black voters -- believe that donald trump has made life better for

african-americans. 81% that president trump has made things worse for african-americans. so you have this one episode up against all of his campaign, his record, his leading chance of -- his attacks about elijah cummings. his talk about s-hole countries. african-american voters i think have very much made up their minds and the suggestion that somehow he's going to turn things around by this criminal justice bill, i think is extraordinarily naive and by the way, this is a huge problem for republicans who have tried for decades to have outreach to the african-americ african-american community and so much of that has been undone by donald trump's presidency. >> and if you're running for congress and there are a bunch running. all of them. 435, david. the question is, is there a negative halo when the president comes to environments like this based on his history, based on the -- the reporting around him

and what he's done historically against this community? >> i think the -- we have to realize that to be a successful legislature -- legislator -- you have to get bills passed. and if we want to get bipartisan criminal justice reform done in the united states, you have to reach beyond the aisle -- on the other side of the aisle in order to get that done. and there is an actual chance during -- as we approach the lame duck session of president trump's presidency, we still have a chance to get a second iteration of this criminal justice bill done. he's expressed interest in getting it done. there's still some interest on the hill in getting it done. so i believe it can. if you -- if -- if legislators are going back to their districts campaigning and telling voters why they should get elected, i think this would be a good talking point that they got a second iteration of criminal justice reform done. >> all right. msnbc's mike memley, david adelia, and amy stoddard. thank you all. i appreciate your time. president trump's former

chief of staff says he saw impeachment coming and the white house is now firing back. a war of words unfolding right now. g ckba a war of words unfolding right now. as a financial advisor you have to listen. you listen to your client's goal of sending her daughter to the music school of her dreams. and you help her turn it into reality.

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phillip reeker, still testifying

right now on capitol hill in the impeachment inquiry for hours so far. hour eight right now. we're watching, of course, what's happening in the scif in capitol hill. meanwhile, breaking news from jon kelly today. president trump's former chief of staff. he is now saying he regrets resigning and that he warned president trump about impeachment before he left the white house. take a listen to this. >> so whatever you do, don't -- don't hire a yes-man. someone that's going to tell you -- or won't tell you the truth. don't do that because if you do, i believe you'll be impeached. >> that is what the four-star marine general said. the president refuting the claim saying quote, john kelly never said that. he never said anything like that. if he would have said that, i would have thrown him out of the office. he just wants to come back into the action like everybody else does. end quote. white house press secretary stephanie grisham added to this

saying quote i work with john kelly and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great president. joining us now, glenn kershner, msnbc legal analyst charlie psyc psychs still with us. charlie, interesting. all the kings men and women now we're seeing a former chief of staff coming forward and saying, guess what? i warned you that you'd get impeach if you get a yes man. he's also, if you will, throwing shade on mick mulvaney. >> oh and that stephanie grisham quote. i mean, that is a graphic. that is -- that is pure north korean fluffry. that's got to go in the -- that's got to go in the sycophant hall of fame. you know donald trump himself probably dictated this but john kelly is basically read between the lines saying donald trump is not fit to be the president of the united states.

and that he replaced him with a yes man. i mean, we ought to mention that some of the episodes of the obstruction of justice did occur when he was chief of staff. but it is an extraordinary moment and it's also extraordinary how many of the folks in trump world are now breaking their silence and willing to come out and speak. and i think -- i think the dam is really beginning to break and you're starting to see this. and the -- the trump -- the slap-back at john kelly came awfully quickly but i think that's also an indication of how thin their skin is and how vulnerable they feel to voices like this. >> i mean of note here, glenn kershner, is that we are seeing a military man. i mentioned this earlier. four-star marine general. we have ambassador taylor. also a military man for decades. crossing the president. this used to be his safe space, if you will. >> richard, you know, i have to admit my pulse quickened a little bit when i saw that -- that john kelly statement. and here's why. if we drill down behind what he

said, it really is a powerful affirmation of the propriety of the impeachment inquiry that's going on right now. and here's why. he said, look, president trump, if you are left to your own devices, if you -- if you just run with your inclinations and you make decisions based on what you think is a good thing to do, you will be impeached. he didn't say, president trump, if you install a yes man as chief of staff, the dems will overreach and will come up with a witch hunt and try to impeach you for no reason at all. i got to tell you, when you absorb what he actually said, he said, based on donald trump's conduct, if left unconstrained, if left to his own devices, he'll be impeached and he will deserve it. that is really a powerful refutation of anyone who says the dems are overreaching. kelly just said he deserves to be impeached based on his

conduct. >> jonathan, based on his conduct, the presidents and what the former chief of staff, the retired four-star marine general is saying right now, does this open the door for yet more to come forward? does this give some cover? >> i think it does because, you know, john kelly was kind of the guy standing between donald trump and the rest of the world for a long time. he was chief of staff for a good chunk of the -- >> homeland security before that. yeah. >> so it's -- it's a little bit like haldeman breaking with nixon or something. it's true he left on bad terms. but i think it's exactly right that if you unpack his comments, he is saying the president is unfit for office. and that is the unmistakable sub text of this. so if you now have a lot of other people start to come forward and say the same thing, it makes it awfully hard to argue that this was a witch

hunt. and, you know, stephanie grisham kind of misspoke. she said great president. she meant to say, dear leader, right? and this is not working for them. we don't go for this dear leader stuff in our country. so they can -- >> i think all of a sudden baghdad bob as well in there, yeah. >> this is bad spin, right? and this is one of the things we've seen in the last few days. they're spinning as hard as they can and it ain't working. so this -- this is more good news for the democrats. >> for the democrats. you know, charlie, also when we look at the hawks, right, that are potentially now going the other way and openly talking about criticisms of this president. and you look at congress, you look at the senate right now, they're looking for reasons to potentially break or hint thereof or wait until later on during the trial to break. but you just look at what you've got here. you've got a four-star marine general. you've got potentially the former national security advisor. the discussions being made reportedly that he may come also

to the hill and get in there with the impeachment inquiry and have to talk, too, potentially. hawks. >> this is a very -- this is a very, very important point because these folks are going to have a lot of credibility with the senate republicans who are going to determine the fate of this whole process. but also, you think about the vulnerability of the -- of the president. his base respects military leaders. and you're starting to have a critical mass. you're having these four-star generals. you had admiral mcraven running that very powerful op-ed piece just in the last week. are we going to hear from general mattis? are we going to hear more from general mcmaster? you know, you think about, you know, looking at, you know, when voters go to the polls in 2020, how many military leaders will have broken their silence? >> uh-huh. >> and i think that they're looking around and, you know, when you start to see this sort of thing, it encourages more of them to come forward. and by the way, the way the white house hit back at general kelly has got to offend a lot of

the people in the military who see this as an act of disrespect. it's a dangerous political moment for the president. >> and we may hear more yet from the president. glenn, if you're the prosecutor here and you're part of the inquiry, the leadership here on the democratic side, you might be thinking, okay, we've got enough to get to impeachment. we may have enough as we move forward into trial. but who do we put in front of america? that can really bring along support. is he one of those? >> that -- that's a great question because as -- as a former career prosecutor, when i had a defendant, i wanted to charge him with all of the criminal offenses he committed. however, i had to evaluate what witness do i need to prove up any one particular offense? so if i had a really strong charge. if, for example, the house wanted to draft an article of impeachment for abuse of power, probably bribery and extortion as well, for the dirty ukraine deal that the president tried to

do with president zelensky, they now have these career public servants. patriotic surge, as jonathan said. i love that term. who they can put on the stand to persuade the american people that, you know what, this and this alone warrants impeachment. but then if you look back to the mueller report volume two with all of that obstruction of justice, you know, proving those things up would be a little bit more difficult because you might have to put the lewindowskis on the stand. and you might have to drag hope hicks back in and don mcgahn and these are people who, frankly, are sort of cruddy witnesses. you don't want to offer them up if you can avoid it. so i think there will be some strategic decisions to be made about exactly what the articles of impeachment should contain. >> to avoid the proverbial circus. great conversation. appreciate it. up next, the dangerous fire

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and the power of 1 2 3. ♪ trelegy 1-2-3 save at trelegy.com this hour, we're going to take you through some breaking news coming out of california where firefighters are working overtime at this hour to contain at least 14 wildfires across the northern and southern part of the state. the state is taking significant preventive measures and cutting power to as many as 1 million customers in the north.

nbc's sam brock is in geyserville and the temperatures not helping these firefighters either. >> the temperatures are obviously a little bit elevated right now, richard. but the big problem is the wind or the expected winds this evening. this fire, the kincaid fire, is on track to arguably the biggest in california's history and that is saying something given what we've seen the last couple of years. looking around me right now, this is one of about 20 such homes that look just like this. utter devastation. the concern, of course, that the flames with picked up winds tonight will be spreading like wildfire. so let me get you up to date. what happened today. the evacuation zone in this area went from 2,000 to more than 50,000 people, including nearby towns of windsor and hailsburg. try to predict what the winds ari are going to do. trying to get out of what is now a very large evacuation zone on

the premise that tonight could have historic winds. i asked pg and e what this is right now in terms of its historical placement. is this unprecedented? they said it sure is with 2 1/2 million people expected to lose power for this event. richard. >> all right. sam, thanks for that. sam brock reporting from geyserville, california in the north there. fevered speculation that hilary clinton may be thinking about jumping into the 2020 race. we're going to talk to the former spokesman who threw some fuel on that very idea this week. threw some fuel on th vatery idea this week i've always been fascinated by what's next.

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was a federal judge in guatemala. he was an advocate for the people... a voice for the voiceless. bring your family history to life like never before. get started for free at ancestry.com . the clintons, they got to go away. they just -- i'm saying this now a year out. listen, they can't be at the convention. >> that's bill march on his show last night talking about speculation that hillary clinton reportedly at least considering jumping into another white house run. one person fueling that speculation, our next guest, former deputy assistant secretary of state and former spokesman for hillary clinton, philip rains. in an interview this week he said clinton has not closed the door on joining the 2020 race. felipe, thanks for being with us. >> thank you, rachel maddow. >> you were pretty clear in saying the door's not closed. what do you know.

>> i was pretty candid saying the door isn't closed. i've become exhibit a why you shouldn't be more than 90% honks on television. if i were to say there's a zero percent chance, i would not be telling the truth. i said this as long as a year ago that the odds of her running, her jumping in, were somewhere between highly unlikely and zero, but not zero. that's the case. usually i'm on tv commenting on something she said or someone else said. i'm not used to commenting on, you know, something i've created. >> something you created, have you spoken to anybody close to her about this? is that what tulells you it's n zero? >> it's a never say never thing. look, it's a two-way street. it's not like she's standing on the street with a sandwich board and a clipboard trying to get people to talk to her about it. there are people who are encouraging her. they have been for a year, people who wanted her to run again, people who thought most

importantly she would be the best person to, a, beat trump, and b, govern after trump, which is a part of this that doesn't get enough discussion. that's not a reflection on who's in the race, that's just a compliment to her more than anything. this was triggered by a "new york times" story where it laid out various people's concerns, including senator sharerrod brown's wife who said her husband should run. other people might have anxieties about the leading candidates, that's not the foundation of what she is or isn't thinking. i mean, she looks at this mess the same way as many of us and say we got to beat this guy. she just happens to be someone that can do it, and that's if she thinks at the end of the day that that's something she can do that only she can do, i think she would give it a certain look. i don't mean -- i'm not throwing fuel on the fire.

i should probably stay in bed for a few days after this. >> don't do that, at least for now. felipe, what do you think has changed? is there polling out there that you might be watching or you've seen that's reputable? she would be going up against joe biden, it looks like. >> on polling, quite the opposite. there's no organization around here or political entity. she's not polling. but even beyond that, she's not polled in general. so if you look at even nbc "wall street journal" polls, you'll see people like mark zuckerberg being tested and others like that, but not hillary. so this is not based on any kind of data or anything like that. in terms of -- >> felipe -- go ahead. i have a poll to ask you about. >> in terms of looking at the race, i would say, you know, i think it's understandable that she would be looking at this whistfully. there's some part of this, and i remember being with her election

night in 2016 where there's an element of, okay, democrats of the next generation have to pick up the ball and keep fighting and she was concerned people would be too deflated to do so. this isn't a criticism of the three front-runners, but they're all 70, two of them are five years and six years older than her, they're all white. two of the three have run for president before. it's not exactly like her not running again gave way to some huge diversity among the upper echelons of the democratic primary. >> as you look at this, felipe, and you know the numbers super well based on the last election. does this help republicans who are hoping that when you look at the mid-western firewall where she didn't do well, if she jumps back in, it will give them reason to stay on the "r" side? >> look, the foxes of the world, the republicans of the world, they love her because they fear here.

it's a double-sided coin. the same thing with alexandria ocasio-cortez where they like the foil, but fundamentally they are scared. look, if she were to run, it would be incredibly difficult. it's difficult to become the nominee, even when you start from the beginning. but to jump in this late without any organization, without any kind of money, worse, knowing that people who supported you in the past have moved on, it would be tough. it would be practically a suicide mission. but in terms of looking at it, i don't think it's anything more than she wants to jump in. bill march looking at the clip, you could have shown me a bill march clip from a decade ago when he said the same thing. i'm glad for the country that she was secretary of state. >> now we will let you take a nap, my friend. former spokesperson for hillary clinton, felipe rains. thank you, sir. >> thank you, richard. >> i'm richard lui. i'll be back tomorrow at 4:00

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to the wait did frowe just win-ners. prouders everyone uses their phone differently. that's why xfinity mobile let's you design your own data. now you can share it between lines. mix with unlimited, and switch it up at anytime so you only pay for what you need. it's a different kind of wireless network designed to save you money. save up to $400 a year on your wireless bill. plus get $250 back when you buy an eligible phone. call, click, or visit a store today. quid pro, here we go. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. tonight the evidence continues to mount on president trump. nbc news reporting new evidence tonight of president trump's