you're holding on to the hope. that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm natalie morales. thank you for watching. a very good morning to you. i'm richard liu in new york city. we're going to start with breaking news this hour. the most wanted terrorist believed to be dead. the latest on a u.s.-led raid. what this means for the future of isis. what did he say? a state department official talks to impeachment investigators about attacks made on the u.s. ambassador to ukraine. a new declaration about when the impeachment inquiry may go public. a word from the lead democrat. john kelly speaks out about his time in the white house and whether he could have prevented the impeachment inquiry.

we're going to start this hour, though. the leader of isis believed to be dead. killed last night in a u.s. military operation during purported u.s. air strikes on a suspected isis safe house in syria. nbc news has confirmed the mission started about 6:00 p.m. eastern saturday. it included helicopters, jets and drones and special ops forces that fired from the air. isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi is believed to be dead. they're conducting dna tests right now. the suspected safe house was under u.s. surveillance in recent days. a convoy leaving the compound was also struck in this attack. the safe house was later decimated by an air strike. president trump is expected to address the nation 9:00 a.m. eastern time. of course, we'll go to that live right here on msnbc. this is where this all unfolded overnight. it happened in the northwestern

part of syria. close to the border with turkey. nbc's pentagon and national security correspondent, courtney cube i is in iraq. richard engel in syria and hans nichols in washington for us on this breaking news. we'll start here with richard and courtney. courtney, what do we know? >> reporter: so, as you mentioned, richard, this was a raid by the elite special operations, u.s. special operations forces, including some of the most elite delta force. it started overnight here local time. it included some helicopters. we know there were fixed wing jets and then, of course, drones up for surveillance and overwatch. we know there was some fire from the air. so there were some strikes from the aircraft and then a number of the helicopters landed and then it's not as clear what happened there. the u.s. mill tariff who landed were -- military who landed were able to exploit the scene in some way, gathering information

that they would be able to confirm who it was, who was the mission, the target of this mission, whether in fact they had gotten him here. we're wait to go hear exactly who was with baghdad i at the time. he was in extreme northwest part of syria. only a matter of miles from the turkish border. it's an area of i had lib province where there are terror groups there. it's generally the al qaeda type. it doesn't necessarily mean that he would not be welcome there. there have been splits and fissures between al qaeda and isis in the past. but it's possible that he could have found some friends there in the province. he might have had a network to work with. we're looking forward to hear from the president to hear what they can tell us, details about the raid and potentially

information about what baghdad i's role has been in isis. it's not clear whether he was still running the day-to-day ground ones or more of a figurehead in the recent months or years. >> richard, as we look at this, so much happening and being reported from where you're at specifically here. what happened in the lead-up to this attack and al baghdadi, what we believe to be his death. movement of troops coming into the area that were new. what was the lead up to this? >> reporter: well, before we get to the lead-up, let's talk more about the operation itself. we've been in touch with witnesses and local activists in this village, it's right on the turkish/syrian border. it's a known smuggling route. i've been to that area myself many times. it is a place where smugglers go back and forth from syria into turkey, smuggling peopling,

smuggling goods. it goes back to even before the syrian civil war began. so it is a transit route. if baghdadi was in fact there and u.s. officials say thir confident he was there and he is dead, he could have been either heading to turkey or coming back and forth across that border. witnesses and activists tell us more about what happened during this raid, that may have lasted somewhere between an hour and an hour and a half. that the helicopter landed, that an arabic speaking man using a bullhorn was telling people to stand back, to get out of the way. not to get involved in the raid. there were also some tents in the area next to this safe house, farmhouse, house that apparently no longer exists. we've obtained photographs of the aftermath and they show a tremendous amount of devastation. this was not just a few special

ops, snatching someone and leaving. there was an intensive military operation, at least focused on one part of this border village leaving a compound, farm compound, farmhouse completely destroyed. >> richard now tell us about the lead-up and how this may have happened because, as you've been reporting and glad to have you there in northern syria, but we understand the dangers there. what was the lead-up to this? >> the lead-up to this, it was very simple. it has become very complicated. the reason it was very simple is that for the last five years, there has been an elite counter isis mission. there have been elite american troops here working with kurdish fighters doing exactly this kind of thing. pinpoint operations targeting specific, sometimes called high value targets, finding isis fighters, driving them out of their safe havens.

that was the mission for the last five years. that mission successfully overthrew the caliphate. it ran a large piece of iraq and syria. that mipgs was progressing, it was successful and then last march the mission had gotten so successful that the isis caliphate was toppled and the leader, as courtney was saying, then went into hiding. he issued a few audio recordings but was on run. he no longer ran the caliphate. but he was trying to rebuild the isis fighters. as all of this was happening, the tail end of what had been a very successful counterterrorism operation, in fact, had the last two weeks or so not happened, i think you would have seen kurds out celebrating, american troops out celebrating that this was the sul mination of the five-year partnership.

but instead, just before this raid over the last two weeks, we saw a change in that relationship, a dramatic one when president trump decided to first pull back american troops and then decide to change his mind and then, instead of pulling all the troops out of syria, he was sending them to another part of syria to protect oil fields leaving the kurds feeling very exposed as they are under attack by turkey. the kurds come out and are saying, this only happened today. this raid, this successful operation, which was an american operation, only happened because for the last five years they have been working with the americans to fight against isis. so they still do feel betrayed even as the u.s. and president trump later is going to tout this as a huge success and it is a success. but it doesn't eliminate the larger context of what happened here to the kurds and what is still happening to them. >> richard, our viewers know you've been reporting extensively in this conflict

zone. we're hearing sounds behind you now. the concerns that we have of the location that you might be at right now. >> reporter: yes. i appreciate that. you probably noticed over the last couple of weeks now, we've been trying to keep our locations here in northern syria private and discreet for our own safety. so we're fine. we're in a secure location. we're confident in that. but we'd rather not get into more detail. >> absolutely. just the sounds we heard in the background, of course, concerned based on the team that's there. >> reporter: it remains a war zone. northern syria still not a safe and secure place. especially the last two weeks. but to the viewers, we're fine. we're working on the story. we'll be good. >> thanks, richard. hans nichols, as you've been listening to richard and courtney's reporting. the president may be giving a hat tip earlier in the evening

yesterday. >> lars night was the first clue when the president had an announcement on twitter that something very big is happening. we'll see to what extent he provides operational details when he talks to the press in about three hours. we know that president trump likes to act as his own pentagon press secretary at times. what we need is confirmation that this was baghdadi. we need to know to what extent it helps to the intelligence gathering and/or the actual operation and finally, it's going to be interesting to see how president trump seizes upon this moment, which is undoubtedly as richard said -- baghdadi had been a menace in the region. to what point does he use this to argue for his overall pullback from the middle east. it is so clear listen to the president's rhetoric on the campaign trail, in the oval office, wherever he is, his

instinct is to withdraw from the middle east. there's a muddled message out of the middle east, how many troops will remain there. the president initially indicated he had just about 100 down south. now the secretary is talking about specifically keeping 100 troops to secure oil in the eastern part of the country. whether or not the president indicates there will be any lasting footprint to secure the oil or for any other purposes, i think that's key. because we do know what his instincts are. we'll see to what extent he takes this as a mission accomplishment and touts the u.s. military. really, what must be said an intelligence across all boards and intelligence and military operations victory. guys? >> courtney, how big a deal is this moving forward based on the two narratives we've been talking about, the united states military footprint decreasing,

yet at the same time, this success? >> reporter: so, i mean, the baghdadi, if in fact this is beau bakr al baghdadi who was killed in this raid, it's significant for isis, because he's a figurehead, right? there's not an immediate obvious successor at this point. there will be some time of turmoil. in an organization that's candidly in some turmoil. much of them have gone underground in this region. they're not organized into a caliphate. they're not holding land in a way they once were. there will be moments of turmoil. for the most part, someone pops back up afterwards and takes over and things sort of go on as they would have. so the morale, there might be a morale issue. fort larger issue of this back and forth, the confusion that u.s. troops are feeling about they're coming, they're going, they're staying, we still don't know. as hans was saying, we don't

know what the footprint is going to look like. it's clear they'll stay in the south. there's a garrison there. it's clear that president trump, cycling back and forth on twitter about what he wants to do with the oil fields, u.s. military and secretary of defense has said there will be a presence in dare zor. we saw the first vehicles moving towards there on saturday in northern iraq. so it's clear that there will be a presence, it's not clear how long it will last. they will continue to part with the syrian opposition group. how long will that last? the kurds feel betrayed by the fact that this anti-isis, defeat isis mission that they've been partnering with and working so valiantly with the united states is for several years now, they feel very betrayed by the fact that the u.s. very quickly pulled out of that mission. will this protecting oil fields partnership salvage some of that

or is the u.s. just going to turn around with another quick decision and policy decision and pull all the troops out again, leaving the kurds in the dust? nobody knows what's going to happen. the sense of confusion that i have felt by the u.s. military officials who i've been speaking with in the region is unlike anything i've dealt with in covering the military, richard. >> what are some of the expressions they are saying or giving? >> it's both confusion and it's frustration. i've felt a serious sense of frustrati frustration. in coming here to set up the stories we've been planning to work on, things are changing so quickly, they can't guarantee the stories we're covering that are going to happen or they can support us. i've just, obviously, when you're in a situation like this, a fluid situation of conflict and change, things change quickly. you have to be flexible. it's at a level that personally, i've covered the military almost 15 years now, i've never seen

anything like this. >> right. >> the expressions of frustration and resignation that i've felt by u.s. military officials, like i said, it's unlike anything i've experienced, richard. >> thank you so much. courtney kube. hans nichols. richard engel. it was 12:00 noon in iraq as well as in syria. breaking news as well happening. along with what we're watching in syria. take a look at this. this is new footage of a scene surrounding a shooting at a homecoming party outside of greenville, texas for texas a&m university at commerce students. two people confirmed dead with 14 injuries. the condition of those injured is unknown at this time. police at texas a&m, at commerce have tweeted. they've clarified that there's no active shooter on their campus at this moment which is not far away. however, police at the school also say it is not clear whether

any students were involved in this reported shooting. a statement reading our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, families and friends of those affected by this morning's shooting in greenville, texas. texas a&m university commerce leadership and the university's police department are working with the hunt county sheriff's office to determine if any of those shot or injured are a&m commerce students. this is an ongoing investigation. this event did not occur on the a&m commerce campus. we'll be watching that. the other big stories. the day's other headline today. john kelly, this weekend saying he delivered a big warning to the president and now it's a spat that keeps escalating. new twists just this morning.

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new developments. the white house is disputing the former chief of staff after john kelly said he warned the president on impeachment. listen to what kelly said he told president trump. >> like every president, you want to move the ball down the field as you see it and someone has got to be the guy that tells you that you know, you have the authority or you don't or mr. president, don't do it because, whatever. but don't hire someone that will just nod and say that's a great idea, mr. president because you

will be impeached. >> the white house released this statement from the president reading quote, john kelly never said that. he never said anything like that. if he would have said that, i would have thrown him out of the office. he just wants to come back into the action like everybody else does. and then the white house press secretary added, quote, i worked with john kelly and he was totally unequipped to handle the genius of our great president. just yesterday, a top diplomat overseeing u.s. policy in europe testified before congress for eight hours. philip reeker corroborated details of the former ukraine ambassador. he testified that top leadership rejected his efforts to support publicly the ambassador who was a target of a conspiracy fueled smear campaign. democrats and republicans had opposite takeaways from that deposition. >> the testimony was was a good day for the president, a good day for the american people. >> what we have is one continuous stream of criminal conduct by the president of the

united states. >> house democrats added two depositions for this week. they are threatening a key witness with contempt if he does not show up for his scheduled testimony tomorrow. daniel lit man who covers for politico. hanna trudeau. here's a little bit more of what he said. >> we're still in the process of trying to find someone to take my place. i said whatever you do, don't hire a yes man. someone that is going to tell you -- won't tell you the truth. don't do that. because if do you, i believe you'll be impeached. i have an awful lot to say the least second thoughts about leaving because, whether you like mr. trump or not, he's the president of the united states. >> hannah, why is this retired four-star general marine saying this now? >> it's unclear exactly why he's

introducing himself back in this way. but i think if anything we've learned about trump and this his hiring tactics or -- he prefers to hire, quote-unquote yes men to use john kelly's expression. it's no surprise that he's categorically denying that and the white house is coming out strongly against that. it's hard to know exactly what unfolded but i think just given his statement, advising against it, he was kind of suggesting that white house aides would have some sort of say or control over congressional processes which is absurd in itself as well. >> daniel, as we look at this, what do you make of the press secretary argument, john kelly was, quote, unequipped to handle the genius of our great president? >> well, i think that statement is kind of absurd because general kelly served our country

for decades. he was a well-respected general and president trump loves or used to love his generals. he served as a secretary of homeland security and so he was -- he's probably the most equipped person who has served in that job for president trump. but we have to look at, you know, the white house staff. there aren't that many people that are of traditional republican circles. i think this is just one in a series of instances where you have former aides who kind of look back on their experience in the white house and have some regrets or just say that there's no one restraining trump right now. mick mulvaney doesn't see his job as a person to stop trump from engaging in calls like the ukraine call which got him into this trouble. i don't think general kelly, if he was there, he would have let

that happen. >> or seeing hawks -- ambassador taylor potentially, mr. bolton himself being considered right now to head to the hill. speaking of which, the inquiry ongoing and the "washington post" has new reporting about what house republicans focused on during the depositions. republican lawmakers have used the congressional impeachment inquiry to gather information on a cia employee who filed a whistle-blower complaint, press witnesses on their loyalty to president trump and advance kpir torial claims that ukraine was involved in the 2016 elections. dan yes, ma'am, back to you. the witnesses corroborated most of the whistle-blower complaint. >> if you look at this line by line as was done. -- almost every line has been confirmed. and so this is kind of a

fallback mechanism by republicans who really don't have a great defense given that mick mulvaney, the acting chief of staff went on television and basically confirmed that this happened. they're left to tear down the credibility of the whistle-blower even though that will have the effect of discouraging future whistle-blowers in any administration of speaking out. that's not something anyone would want because if you're republican, you want people to speak out as well. >> these mechanics are happening in washington, d.c. right now. there are those watching, certainly, the temperature on the ground, both the president as well as republicans and the democrats. nbc news asked a trump supporter in new hampshire whether he supports impeachment. here's what he told us. >> i do not support the impeachment of donald trump.

i'm not informed on the newest developments of ukraine. i'm all for holding him accountable. if we investigate further and he did something shady. then yes, i would support the impeachment. i do not think there are enough facts right now to support such a movement. i do not think it's been handled very well. if it is the fact that he has done shady things, i think it's been handled very poorly. >> how should house democrats, as they look at comments like that, as they prepare to take hearings public, decipher that and answer that sort of concern. >> well, that's fascinating and it's happening right there in my home state of new hampshire. you know, it's important to remember that these inquiries, these congressional proceedings, they're not happening in a vacuum. like you said, we're in the middle of a presidential election. we just heard a new hampshire republican voter saying he's not convinced.

i think one thing that i've been noticing covering the democratic side of the presidential campaigns is that, while democrats, the house obviously, nancy pelosi is quite keen to rally the -- her support behind it in washington and in congress, it's not something that often comes up on the campaign trail and campaigns on the democratic side while nearly all of them at this point said they support the impeachment inquiry, they also point to the fact that it doesn't come up too much in town hall settings or in sort of q and a settings with voters on the acknowledge the statements and what -- also focus more on issues that democrats and voters care about on the trail. >> right. daniel and hanna, thank you so much for getting up early with us on msnbc. appreciate it. if you're just waking up, big breaking news. the leader of isis believed to

be dead. word came late last night. there are new developments this hour. we take you to the region, next. great riches will find you when liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wow. thanks, zoltar. how can i ever repay you? maybe you could free zoltar? thanks, lady. taxi! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i am totally blind. and non-24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. talk to your doctor, and call 844-214-2424.

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breaking news here on a sunday morning. the leader of isis believed to be dead following a u.s.

military operation last night in northwestern syria. u.s. special ops forces there used helicopters, jets and drones to strike a suspected isis safe house. isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi is -- they're verifying his identity. erin mclaughlin joins me from turkey across the border from syria. erin, what more do we know about the operation and what will be next in identifying whether or not this is baghdadi? >> reporter: hey, richard. the details we are getting suggest a well-coordinated, carefully planned operation. we know that from our sources that special forces in the overnight hours first attacked by air and then landed and gathered intelligence. the operation involving planes, drones and helicopters all of this going down some three miles away from the turkish border and

we are now hearing new details of a level of coordination with turkey as well. the turkish ministry of defense tweeting out. following this morning saying prior to the u.s. operation in idlib province. the authorities of both counsel tris took place. we're also hearing from kurdish officials suggesting a level of cooperation with the kurds as well. we have yet to verify that with u.s. officials as we are waiting for the results of this forensic analysis. we have yet to hear from isis and its propaganda wing. no reaction from them so far. if it is a massive blow to isis and its global operations. >> erin, stand by. i'd like to bring in bobby ghosh, columnist of the editorial board.

>> what are you hearing from your sources from turkey and the region? >> this is very close to italy, probably the most -- it's close to the turkish border as we heard. not far from the nato base, a couple of hundred kilometers away. this is an unusual place for him to be. this is not his natural environment. it's a part of the country where other terrorist groups, some hostile towards isis operate. so you would have expected him to be the other end of the country near iraq where things are a little quieter. he would have connections in iraq. it's peculiar. a turkish official told me before i came on here, they believe he moved into this location 48 hours ago and maybe in the course of movement exposed himself. maybe that's how they managed to track thim down. this is very different than bin

laden being found a couple of kilometers from the academy. he was living in this peaceful compound for years. this man has been on the run for a long time. the circumstances are very different. it suggests that this recent movement by him kind of brought him out into the open and they were looking out for him. they were able to get him when he showed himself. >> bobby, why would he move? >> there are very few places for him within syria now. >> so much is happening on the ground as we've been talking and reporting. >> i'd like to find out why he felt he had to break cover, if indeed that's what happened and why he went to this particular place. there are groups operating in the idlib area associated with al qaeda and they do not get along. there are affiliated groups capturing and killing isis fighters. this is a very, very unexpected

place for him to turn up. >> erin, what we do know, though, is there's been a realignment of the power structure there in that region as you're so close to with militias, russian forces and turkish forces, now, if you will, deciding who gets what. >> reporter: yeah. that's absolutely right, richard. i think the timing and all of this raising questions. the fact that this happened just weeks after the u.s. announces a troop withdrawal from northeastern syria triggering a turkish incursion. we're seeing ongoing fierce clashes between turkish forces and kurdish fighters. this despite the russian backed or brokered cease-fire agreement currently in place raises a whole new host of questions, especially considering what we're hearing from the turkish m.o.d. this morning. that there was a level of cooperation and koord nargs with the united states in terms of

this operation. >> bobby, americans are now thinking, we remember those isis-inspired attacks in our homeland. what does this mean for the future of isis now, what, five years old, right? >> for a couple of years now, isis has been morphing, it's gone from being the caliphate. an organization that has very large piece of territory to once again returning to terrorism 101, if you remember. hit and run, influencing people through the internet. looking for lone wolves, less successfully in the u.s. that's the sort of morphing that's taking place. with al baghdadi gone, it's a big blow at a critical time. they will have to continue that process of reforming themselves. they'll have to find new leaders who are, if you like, a different kind of leader. no longer a leader that runs a large piece of territory, a fixed state, but a leader that is used to hit and run

operations. much closer to the al qaeda playbook than the isis playbook. >> all right. bobby ghosh thank you for your expertise. erin mclaughlin. thank you for your reporting in turkey. appreciate it. testimony from former national security adviser john bolt ton. it may be critical in the impeachment inquiry but will he obey or disobey the white house and testify? you just saved a bunch of money by switching your boat insurance to geico. it was easy. folks, can it get any better than this? is that what i think it is? that is an armada of tiny sushi boats. awesome! i forgot to pack lunch. you had one job... chopsticks wasabi and soy! comin' in a little hot. it only gets better when you switch and save with geico. whether your beauty routine itis 3or 57,...tter make nature's bounty hair skin and nails step one.

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new york times reports there may be no one they want to question more than john bolton. the national security adviser was mentioned repeatedly in the impeachment hearings so for. his lawyers have been in contact with committee officials. joining us now katie phang and glenn kirchner. glenn, let's talk about that quote from baker. there may be no one they want to question more than bolton. what do you think about that? >> i think there are fruitful lines of inquiry for john bolton. we've all heard the statement where bolton characterized what he saw going on with mulvaney and sondland and some of the others as a drug deal. there's an obvious line of questioning there. you know, john bolton, you characterized what you saw as a drug deal. a drug deal is obviously

unlawful. so what you saw prompted you to characterize it as unlawful, illegal. why? what was it that you saw? we can also ask him about his quote now that is somewhat infamous about rudy giuliani being a hand grenade that was going to blow up and hurt everybody. what is it that you saw and heard about rudy giuliani that led you to conclude he was a hand grenade that could damage everyone? these are important foundational questions. bolton chose to characterize what he was seeing in real-time as potentially dangerous, damaging and unlawful and we need to tease out the congressmen and women need to tease out from bolton what it is that led him to believe this. >> the question is, if he does do this to you as well, how

damaging might his testimony be as we were just hearing from glenn, why some of the words that have been used to describe what bolton and how bolton reacted to some of the ongoings there in the white house. >> glenn astutely noted, richard, that the characterization of the interactions between sondland and mulvaney with ukrainian officials back in early july of 2019 were criminal in nature. richard, you used the word if. that's the key word in this analysis. whether or not john bolton gets in front of the committees to testify in private. we know that the deputy national security adviser working with john bolton, his lawyer filed a declaratory action on friday indicating that cupper man needed to know from the court system whether or not he's allowed to testify. we do know that kuperman's lawyer is representing bolton as well. he may take the same tact, go to court on his own initiative to get a determination whether or

not the white house can bar him from testifying in terms of what he saw and heard and knows. i would note that they confirmed that sondland has characterized the pressure on ukraine to investigate the bidens in exchange for aid was a quid pro quo. there is no requirement for the quo in terms of making it criminal in nature. it is a federal offense to solicit aid from a nation to influence the outcome of an election. sondland has taken the position from his attorney that there was a quid pro quo. he may be the cherry on top of the sundae that brings them full impeachment articles to get to a convicts in the senate. >> katie phang, glenn kerri iki back next hour. you'll hear more next. ye all stressed. (honk!) i hear you sister. that's why i'm partnering with cigna to remind you to go in for your annual check-up,

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here is house intel committee chairman adam schiff speaking to reporters yesterday. >> i'm not prepared to give the timeline at this point. >> do you know how many more weeks of closed-door depositions you may be looking at? >> i'm really not prepared to talk about the timing. >> joining me now progressive commentator and radio talk show host rashad richey and hanna trudo back with us. what do you make of the reluctance to talk about the timeline? do you think he has a sense of how much longer this will go or he doesn't know as well? >> well, i think politically -- politically they want to make sure this goes fast because this is a political presidential election cycle, however, adam schiff has to be very careful not to seem as if he simply wants to land the plane for the sake of landing the plane on a timeline. they have to be meticulous about the investigatory process. beyond that, republicans are pushing this narrative that

somehow this is being done in secret and this is taking too long and the american public should know about it. well, i want to know about it, i'm interested, i want to see exactly who is saying what, but the truth is republicans in 2015 under boehner passed these rules that will allow congress to actually inquire in secret and they were the first to enact these rules. beyond that, 47 republicans to stormed that secret proceeding were actually allowed to be there legally and they chose to grandstand that process and simply chant "let us in" when they already had a seat at the table. >> hannah, speaking of the republicans, part of their argument here against this is process, right? republicans are looking at taking issue with the closed-door aspect as has been mentioned of the investigation. now that we're hearing at least some statement from the chairman and his promise that they will be moving to open hearings, will

that satisfy some of the critics here? >> well, that's unlikely given the way that washington -- partisan washington currently operates, especially this this congress, but, you know, like you mentioned, adam schiff has been open about wanting to have some aspect of this whole process be public, especially potentially some parts of the transcript. so, i mean, just taking a step back, we still don't even know how many potential inquiries, impeachment inquiries the house might even consider. there's multiple layers involved in it. i think the apprehension between schiff and other members of the house to provide a solid deadline, a timeline, it just speaks to the sort of opaque nature of this whole process and i think quite frankly it's angering both sides. we see it in the democratic -- as the democratic contenders go out on the trail, with he see it the republicans in congress in

washington. so i think there's sort of a massive frustration on both sides. >> rashad, let's talk about that push factor and that is what's stopping democrats from firming up initial details about the public aspect of the probe that they have been critical of, even if they haven't finished their closed-door depositions? >> they will never finish closed-door depositions if they continue to go down the rabbit holes that these witnesses are creating. remember, every time there is a new witness they say something or potentially say something that could be investigated. so there has to be a timeline. i think democrats are trying to be intentionally careful so that there's no vulnerability in their investigation because this president has demonstrated one thing, he is able to find your weakness and he is able to magnify that weakness and make it about that one thing rather than the whole thing of the investigation. so i think they're being careful intentionally and it is probably the best route moving forward,

but i do expect there to be a closing by the end of the year no matter what because there is an appetite with members of congress to shut this thing down and move into an actual impeachment process. remember when nixon was impeached in july, the articles of impeachment, excuse me, were drawn up in july of 1974 that was one year from the incident to that formal process and then nixon resigned. so it took a year for that to take place and we are not even at the tip of that iceberg yet. >> and, oh, by the way, there is this impact on the 2020 election. my colleague alex witt asked presidential candidate and new jersey senator cory booker about that yesterday. take a listen. >> we are talking about the removal of a sitting president. whatever amount of time it takes to do a thoughtful, thorough, honorable investigation in which we do it in the way that builds more census and doesn't rip our

country apart, that's what we should do. politics be damned. i mean, really. i don't care. i don't care what impact it has on the future. >> hannah, 15 seconds to you. >> yeah, you know, cory booker makes a good point. i think most of these democratic presidential contenders they echo a lot of what is being said in the democratic-led house. they often shift as booker did just now back to sort of the talking points of the thoroughness and whatever is, you know, necessary to be done in congress instead of sort of pushing their own political agenda. >> hanna trudo, thank you, rashad richey as well. have a great sunday. back to the big breaking news. this morning the leader of isis believed to be dead. we now have more details and a new report next. now have more a new report nex ♪

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and that wraps up this hour of "msnbc live," i'm richard i lui. thanks for being with us, now time for alex whit. >> we will see you at 4:00 p.m. eastern. good morning to all of you, i'm alex witt here at new york at msnbc world headquarters, 7:00 a.m. in the east, 4:00 a.m. out west. we begin with breaking news, the leader of isis believed dead, killed last night in a u.s. military operation, officials are conducting dna tests to verify that abu bakr al baghdadi is among those killed in that military action in