and that wraps up this hour of "msnbc live," i'm richard i lui. thanks for being with us, now time for alex whit. >> we will see you at 4:00 p.m. eastern. good morning to all of you, i'm alex witt here at new york at msnbc world headquarters, 7:00 a.m. in the east, 4:00 a.m. out west. we begin with breaking news, the leader of isis believed dead, killed last night in a u.s. military operation, officials are conducting dna tests to verify that abu bakr al baghdadi is among those killed in that military action in

syria, but there are some more and new details. nbc news learning that special forces targeted a suspected isis safe house in syria, the mission began around 6:00 p.m. eastern saturday, it included helicopters, jets and drones. that safe house had been under u.s. surveillance in recent days and the compound later destroyed by an air strike. president trump is expected to address the nation at 9:00 a.m. eastern time, but this is where it all unfolded in northwestern syria, very close to the border with turkey. standing by for us nbc's pentagon and national security correspondent courtney kube, she is in iraq, chief foreign correspondent richard engel in syria, hans nick rolls and retired army colonel jack jacobs. welcome to you all. we will start with richard engel in northern syria. richard, give us a sense of exactly who was al baghdadi and the kind of impact his death could have.

>> reporter: before we get to that just a few more details about what actually happened. we just spoke minutes ago with a witness, someone who was in the town, this village of barisha, which is right on the turkish border, it's a rural syrian town. he says he was about 500 meters from the actual house that was destroyed. he said that the helicopters that were involved in this raid were circling so close to his own home that he could feel the wind from the helicopter props. he said that this all began around 11:00 p.m. local time, that it was obviously dark here, that it all started at once. it began suddenly and aggressively. that helicopters came in, they started to fire, he describes how a neighbor went outside to see what was going on, he was fired on, ran back inside. the people all were afraid, they started to turn off their lights, that the helicopters continued to circle laying down

what appears to have been cover fire. then the raid on the compound began. a farm on the edge of this town of barisha, a farm where u.s. officials say they believe that abu bakr al baghdadi the leader of isis had been hiding out and that they are quite confident that he was killed. the witness also said that in addition to the helicopter raid, that he heard jets overhead and that toward the end of the operation unclear how long it lasted, some people say about an hour and a half, he said it felt a lot longer than that, that there was some sort of missile strike or an air strike that came in and destroyed this farmhouse compound just a few hundred yards from where he lived. as you said, u.s. officials have confirmed that there was a raid, that drones, jets and helicopters were involved. other witnesses also describe a translator of sorts using a bull horn speaking in arabic telling

local villagers to stay back, to stay away as this operation was taking place. >> okay. >> reporter: now, who is abu bakr al baghdadi. >> yes. >> reporter: and how big of a deal is this? it's a very big deal. he was the leader of isis, the leader of the caliphate and this is not just a symbolic moment. he was the world's most wanted terrorist right now who had been on the run for the last -- well, he has been on the run for a long time but he has been on the run since he lost his state since march. >> richard, since you are there with all of these details, it's my understanding that he may have died as a result of wearing a suicide vest and that he detonated that. can you confirm that? >> reporter: i cannot. the neighbor once the helicopter fired and the helicopters were circling above, he turned off the lights, he was occasionally peeking out the windows. we've received some videos and photographs from the area, but

that would be details that really only the special operators and other people who were actually in the compound would probably know. he wasn't in a position to see that. he heard lots of things, he saw lots of things, but he wasn't in the house in a position to see if baghdadi was wearing some sort of suicide vest and detonated it. >> okay. and, richard, the fact that they blew up the location, is that to prevent that place from becoming some sort of a shrine? >> reporter: i don't know exactly why they did that. it's not uncommon when u.s. special operations forces did a quite similar raid when they did a raid to kill one of baghdadi's several predecessors, then the most wanted person in iraq certainly, zarqawi, one of the most brutal terrorist leaders in modern history, i went to that compound afterwards. they did a very similar kind of

operation, they located it, and they killed him and they destroyed the compound. in this case i understand that there had been some what they call exploitation of the site, so people, special ops would have been on the ground looking for information, looking for files, computers, any kind of evidence that they could help not just to prove that it was, in fact, baghdadi but to see if they could find intelligence that could lead to follow on operations. when you have an operation like this on such an important leader in a terrorist organization, it's not the end of it. sometimes it's just the beginning because you grab what you can, you learn what you can, you take the information, you put it into the puzzle and see if some of these pieces that you've picked up fit that puzzle and they lead you to other operations. so generally they exploit that information and then try to act on it as quickly as possible because information does not always last very long.

>> yeah. >> you have to use it while it's fresh. >> okay. richard engel there in northern syria, thank you for that. let's bring into the conversation nbc's courtney kube in erbil, iraq. what more are you learning about what happened? >> reporter: well, i mean, these were elite special operations forces as you have been talking about, some delta forces that were involved, helicopters, jets, some drones. we know that the special operators who were involved in this arrived here in the region about a week ago to start the planning. they got some actionable intelligence from u.s. intelligence sources about a week ago they started working through it and they were able to get approval for the raid just yesterday for this mission. they carried it out about midnight local time here and u.s. officials are still not saying whether, in fact, baghdadi was killed or not, but they are saying that he was the target. we're also trying to figure out exactly who else was at this safe house. it seems -- like look at the area where this was. you know, richard talked a little bit about this, but if

they were, in fact, so close to the turkey border in idlib province which has a lot of terror groups there and organizations, not always -- not necessarily isis, though, some al nusra and others who at times clash with isis fighters. if this was a safe house then whose house was it? you asked about the jet, why would they come in and destroy this jet. if this was a safe house that was some kind of an isis leader or former isis leader, there is the potential that there were things there that isis would want to have so the u.s. could come in and destroy the place and then it would deny isis that ability to get those whatever it was that the u.s. military wasn't able to exploit at the site at the time. whether that's files or computers or whatever it is. so we're still waiting to learn a lot about this. how many u.s. troops were involved? we know there were some delta but were there other special operators involved in these kinds of things, we know how these raids tend to go, usually it's a number of helicopters, they come in, they drop green berets who create a perimeter around the site, who create -- make a safe area so that the

operators who go in and actually take out the site often coming down in helicopters, often repelling, so the helicopters don't even touch ground and then they go in and we do know that a fire fight ensued, but it's not 100% clear what happened and whether -- how it was that this individual who is believed to be baghdadi was killed. you also asked about a suicide vest. it's not uncommon for these individuals to be wearing a vest or a belt, it's not necessarily always a vest, but, in fact, sometimes a belt. but the question is if, in fact, that he was wearing one and it detonat detonated, was that something that he detonated on his own or was it something that in a fire fight it was detonated. so there's a lot of those kinds of questions that we are just trying to figure out. when you think back to the bin laden raid in 2011, we knew initially about some very minor details and then over the course of the next week or so more and more of the specifics came out. i suspect that's going to be a similar situation to what we're going to see here, alex. >> so, courtney, both you and richard are making the point

about actionable intelligence comes in and you move pretty quickly on this. does this have anything to do with the nomadic lifestyle that ald had to live. he never stayed too long for fear of being tracked. >> yeah, that's right. i mean, he couldn't stay in one place or he would be a target. we know that he moved around a lot. so the question is there's two different types of actionable intelligence in a ride like this, there's what they use to actually lead to the raid to help with the planning with it, in this case we know it came from u.s. intelligence. begin the area where this happened there's no u.s. presence there, there is some turkish presence nearby there, but most likely this came from human intelligence or perhaps intercepts, then there's the second stage of actionable intelligence which is what the u.s. was able to get from the raid, things that richard mentioned they would want to act

on very quickly that's because that is fresh information potentially that could lead them to other isis leaders, it could give them a sense of potential attacks that might be planned by isis in the area or in the region or even, you know, throughout the world. what we don't really know is exactly what baghdadi's current role was. he put out a video in april where he praised these attacks in sri lanka and it was seen by a lot of analysts as his attempt to sort of bring isis back under him, you know, to make it clear that he was the isis leader, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he was actually controlling or running the day to day ops. that's something that i'm hoping that now that he -- if, in fact, it's confirmed that he's dead i'm hoping that that's something we may be able to learn from u.s. officials who may be more willing to talk a little bit more about his role if, in fact, he's been killed. >> i'm going to get to you, hans, they white house in just a second. richard, given that you are there where the action happened, is there anything either significant or surprising about the fact that al baghdadi was

there in northern syria? >> i think it's quite significant where he was. the outskirts and house of this village called barisha. i know the area quite well, i've been there several times. it is a smuggling route. it has long been a smuggling route. it is an area that people have used to smuggle fighters, to smuggle islamic extremists, have been used to smuggle basic goods like gasoline and sugar and tea for years and years, even predating this country's civil war. so if he's there and he's at a farmhouse and on the edge of the town and he's right on the turkish border, we are talking just a few miles on a known smuggling route one would have to ask the question was he trying to get into turkey. was he trying to come from turkey? had he been going across the border? the only reason logical that you are on that border area is because it is a smuggling route, a famous smuggling route, one that we have used in the past and i've probably crossed it a

half dozen times. >> okay. let's move now to the white house, that is where the president is set to make a statement pretty soon. hans nichols is there with us, what do we expect the president to say? >> reporter: it's an open question of whether or not the president has direct confirmation that al baghdadi was actually killed. i think we will be looking to him for that. we will also be looking for any additional operational details. one thing we don't know is whether or not there are any u.s. casualties. right now the initial reports are focusing on just what happened with baghdadi. with he still don't know if there are any u.s. casualties on this. it will be interesting if the president claims credit for directly approving this. this is the type of mission that a commander in chief would need to authorize and you will recall the president started off his administration by authorizing that disastrous raid in yemen where a navy seal was lost, but that was something the president authorized and received to fob off on his generals. we will be listening to hear on whether or not the president indicates there is any intelligence sharing with partners and or allies.

the turkish foreign minister has indicated earlier a couple hours ago that there was some deconfliction, some conversations with the u.s. that something would be happening. and then the leader of the sdf is also claiming that because of shared intelligence this operation was able to be successful. and then, alex, finally, the rhetoric on this matters, right? to what extent does the president seize upon the death of baghdadi as an opportunity to entirely withdraw from syria. we know what the president's instincts are in this, we know he is leary of getting involved long term and at the same time there are these conflicting messages from his own administration about how long and just where u.s. troops and where there will be a u.s. presence. the central tension, alex, the central tension of the president's syria and counterisis strategy is that he's always claiming that they have really defeated isis, they have defeated the caliphate, but it's really an idea that you're fighting and a question for everyone is is an idea weaker

when one individual is killed and, frankly, we are probably not going to figure that out with this press conference. >> okay. hans, thanks for that. let's go now to retired army colonel jack jacobs. colonel, we have news week reporting that the president approved this strike days ago. my question is is there a difference between approval and then something getting green lighted? in terms of the special forces and their ability to be prepared for this, are they ready to go at a moment's notice? have they trained and trained so that when they get the green light they go and they know exactly what to do? >> yes, and typically when the president gives the authority to conduct the operation, the operation will be conducted at the will of the subordinate command. they are the ones who decide exactly where and exactly when the operation will be conducted. they will have already trained for this kind of operation time and time again, the only question is exactly where and exactly when and that's left up

to the subordinate commander in the field, alex. >> okay. guys, thank you so much. all of you. colonel jack jacobs along with courtney kube, hans nichols and richard engel. we also have breaking news to share from here at home. take a look at this, everyone. new footage of the scene surrounding a shooting that police say occurred at an unsanctioned homecoming party outside greenville, texas, for texas a&m university at commerce. students, hunt county police say, were there, two people confirmed dead, 14 injured. the condition of those injured unknown at this time, but here is what the county sheriff told reporters just in the last hour. >> my concern right now would be for the welfare of those that got injured and the suspect at large, i don't know. >> police in texas a&m university at commerce have tweeted, they're clarifying that there is no active shooter on their campus, it is located approximately 18 miles away,

however, police at the school also say it's not clear whether any students were involved in that shooting despite being present. the hunt county sheriff's office will address the press at 9:00 a.m. eastern along with an update on that shooting. a statement from texas a&m commerce reads in part our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, families and friends of those affected by this morning's shooting in greenville, texas. this is still an ongoing investigation by the hunt county sheriff's office. this event did not occur on the a & m campus. we will have more on the breaking news about the apparent death of the isis leader just minutes, we will talk to a former cia counterterrorism operative. and in a reminder the president is expected to make a statement at 9:00 a.m. eastern. msnbc will carry that live for you. but amid all of this, an escalating spat between the former trump chief of staff and the white house, it apparently started with a warning to the president. those details next. a warning t presidt.en those details next ♪ (dramatic orchestra)

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you like every president want to move the ball down the field as you see it and someone has got to be the guy that tells you that, you know -- that, you know, you either have the authority, you don't or, you know, mr. president, you know, don't do it because whatever, you know, but don't hire someone that will just, you know, nod and say, you know, that's a great idea, mr. president, because you will be impeached. >> developing this morning, a

new spat between former white house chief of staff john kelly and the president over an apparent warning that he gave him on impeachment. this is the inny for the president turning to day 34. the past 24 hours have had rapid and critical developments from the courts to rare weekend testimony on capitol hill. here is a look at what transpired right here on msnbc as we bring you the latest. >> a federal judge ruling the impeachment inquiry is legal and dismissing claims from the white house that the investigation is illegitimate because it hasn't been authorized. >> the judge's decision rejecting these arguments as frivolous by the department of justice i thought and believe is a victory not just for the congress and of course for the house snud shear but ultimately for the american people and rule of law. house impeachment investigators right now interviewing top state department official fill lib reeker that's behind closed doors, you are looking at the pictures of his arrival, it happened an hour ago for this

very rare weekend deposition. >> philip reeker is the latest state department official to be brought in before these congressional investigators to continue to paint this timeline of what happened regarding this ukraine scandal. >> a legal ruling that both leader pelosi and the president are watching closely. charles kupperman is to appear monday for the inquiry, but his lawyer wants clarification from the courts. >> the ambassador, philip reeker, still testifying right now on capitol hill in the impeachment inquiry. for hours so far. hour eight right now. he testified that top state department leadership rejected his efforts to support publicly the ambassador who was the target of a conspiracy-fueled smear campaign. joining me now daniel strauss, national political reporter at "politico" and janel ross, romper for nbc blk. welcome to you both. let's begin with john kelly and his warning. stephanie grisham has provided this statement from the president says john kelly never said that. he never said anything like

that. if he would have said that, i would have thrown him out of the office. he just wants to come back into the action like everybody else does. okay. janel, is there any reason why john kelly would make this up? who do you think is telling the truth here? >> of course i have no way of knowing what conversations have been had in private with the president. i think that mr. kelly certainly has a reputation for being a relatively honest and upstanding individual, so i think the larger question is there are certainly elements of this story that seem like they could occur in any sort of organization, the question of who leaders need to support them and what sort of advice they actually seek, whether to go with the sort of more comfortable role of someone who will really sort of endorse you and sort of buffer your feelings, or to go with someone who will challenge you but perhaps help you arrive at more

solid decisions is a question that many leaders and many organizations face and, of course, in the trump administration given the amount of turnover i think that this might be a larger and more looming question. >> and it should be pointed out that john kelly states that he said this to the president on his way out when he made it known that he was leaving the position. but here is another thing that kelly said about the president, it pains me to see what's going on because i believe if i was still there or someone like me was there, he would not be kind of all over the place. given kelly and his tenure there in the white house as chief of staff, daniel, is he right? i mean, he said he had second thoughts about leaving, looking back on his tenure, was he able to keep the president in check? >> i mean, look, of the chiefs of staff that the president has had, john kelly i think was the most effective or disciplined in that the white house seemed most in order during his time there and he was able at certain points to keep the president's

more impulsive behavior in check. it's understandable that he might say something like that since then. his successor, mick mulvaney, is known to be someone who has not taken extreme pains to keep president trump from acting in the same level of impulsive behavior, but as far as we can tell right now, mulvaney has generally kept in better -- better graces than john kelly. >> so let's take a look at this, back in april of 2018 ap reported trump recently told one confident that he was tired of being told no by kelly and has instead chosen to simply not tell kelly things at all. janel, does john kelly then have a point about the people with whom the president surrounds himself? >> of course. again, it would seem to me that what mr. kelly is pointing to is a larger issue that exists in

all kinds of organizations and this issue of whether or not you hear what you want to hear versus sort of the details or difficulties that might come along with a decision. i think that's something that leaders in all kinds of organizations face and certainly from what we know about the inner workings of the white house at present. i think that mr. trump is a person who is accustomed to perhaps making decisions inside of his privately-owned business in a way that might not easily translate to decision-making in a public policy arena. >> no, he is the ceo, that's for sure. let's get into the testimony yesterday from career diplomate philip reeker. did his testimony provide anything that moves the needle in any way in the impeachment probe? daniel, to you first. >> look, i didn't really hear a lot out from the reports about reeker's testimony, just that he had no knowledge at the time about why this aid to ukraine was being withheld.

at the same time, though, it does raise questions about why he didn't know and what suspicions he had or why he didn't ask more questions about this. was this something that was so normal during his time there that it just seemed commonplace because that would be odd. but at the same time i don't really hear from any of the lawmakers who were -- who know about the testimony or were in these closed door remarks that this moved the needle very much. >> okay. but according to the "washington post" republicans have focused their questioning on the whistle-blower's identity, also on loyalty to the president and conspiracy theories. janel, what does this tell us about how seriously the republicans are taking these testimonies? >> i think as any, i guess, somewhat contentious process, this is a contentious process, it certainly behooves people to perhaps present an alternative

narrative, an alternative story line and that seems to be what is happening here, an effort to present an alternative sort of explanation, another story for which i suppose there is a desire for the american public to focus, another explanation for these events. and it would certainly indicate that at least there is a sense that another story is going to have to be told, that some level of explanation is going to have to be provided. so in that sense it suggests that there is concern. weather th whether that indicates that there is deep concern about the president's future or the feasibility of actual impeachment, i think it's a little too early to say. obviously there is a lot of testimony that's being collected and i think each piece perhaps tells us a bit more or moves closer or further in one direction. >> all right. janel ross, daniel strauss, guys, thank you so much. good to chat with you both. we are following this breaking news this morning, the

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back now at 33 past the hour with this breaking news. the leader of isis is believed

dead after a u.s. military operation last night in northwestern syria. we are awaiting some new video of the aftermath of the u.s. special forces operation which targeted a suspected isis safe house, u.s. helicopters, jets and drones all were deployed. officials believe that the isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi is among the dead. erin mclaughlin is joining me from turkey just across that border from syria. what are you hearing from your vantage point? >> reporter: well, alex, everything we're hearing so far from u.s. sources suggests a well-executed, well-planned operation took place in the middle of the night by u.s. special forces. they attacked by air then went in on ground to gather intelligence using planes, drones and helicopters. we understand that during the operation a safe house was

targeted as well as a convoy. all of this taking place three miles away from the turkish border. we have heard from the turkish ministry of defense this morning say there was a level of coordination with turkey as well, the ministry of defense tweeting out, quote, prior to the u.s. operation in idlib province of syria last night, information exchange and coordination between the military authorities of both countries took place. we've yet to hear from u.s. officials about this potential coordination during this operation with turkey. we also have claims from kurdish officials say that sdf forces were also somehow involved. yet to hear from the u.s. as well on that. meanwhile, we haven't heard from isis, their official propaganda channels, markedly quiet in all of this. we have heard from some sympathizers on social media, those sympathizers vowing to continue on even if baghdadi is, in fact, confirmed dead, in the

same way that al qaeda survived the death of osama bin laden. >> yeah. erin, way nt to let our viewers know what you're seeing right now is that video we have been awaiting, it is of the aftermath, that location, that safe house there in northwestern ear i can't where this strike took place. erin, some details are trickling out. have you heard that he may have died as a result of a suicide vest being detonated, whether or not that was something that he personally detonated or in exchange in a fire fight that may have been detonated for him? i mean, is it typical that these kinds of vests or belts are born by these isis members just in case? >> reporter: well, alex, we have seen those reports that he did perhaps detonate or someone detonated for him a suicide vest in the midst of this u.s. operation. we have yet to get confirmation of that, but it is a known isis tactic to carry out a suicide to

want to go down in that fashion to be a martyr. it's interesting considering the last time we saw baghdadi was in a video in april. in that video some analysts say they could see a suicide vest located right next to him as he was sitting there delivering his message. so it's entirely possible that a suicide vest was involved in some way. we just don't have those details confirmed. >> okay. erin, stay with us as i welcome right now to the conversation bobby ghosh, columnist and member of the editorial board at bloomberg. bobby, with a welcome to you. what are you hearing from this, i mean frrks your sources about this? >> well, i heard from a turkish official a little while ago indicating some of that coordination that erin was talking about between american and turkish officials. he said that the -- that their information is that baghdadi moved into this location about 48 hours ago, moved from where, i don't know yet, but it's quite interesting that he would have moved into this spot so close to

the turkish border. it's not the safest place for al baghdadi to have been. there are other groups that operate there that are closer to al qaeda and that ever no love loss for isis. in fact, there are groups operating there that actively look out for and kill isis fighters. so the fact that baghdadi chose to be there suggests a level of desperation, it also suggests he was perhaps trying to get somewhere else. we heard earlier in the hour richard engel point out that that particular location is known for people smuggling in and out of turkey. that's -- that could be very indicative. the other they think i'm looking out for is that this was a raid, right? there were military boots on the ground so i would be curious to find out hopefully the president will tell us in a little while what information was acquired. remember, when bin laden was killed in pakistan, they got ahold of laptops and a trove of information. i wonder whether that also

happened here, information that would lead to more operations against isis assets and do more damage to the terrorist organization. >> yeah, certainly we are awaiting the president to speak at 9:00 a.m. eastern about all of this and we will see what he says. with regard to al baghdadi himself, he was a ruthless force to be reckoned with, so what should viewers remember most about him, bobby? >> well, this was a man who took terrorism to its ultimate goal, with is to acquire enormous amounts of territory. he created what he called a caliphate, which is an enormous -- essentially a country with a fully functioning economy, with a fully functioning bureaucracy and held it for several years against enormous military pressure from all sides. it's worth remembering that while we think about the impact that this will have on american policy in the region, this man and his group killed more iraqis

and more syrians than any other terrorist group in history. so there is enormous satisfaction today among tens of thousands of families both in iraq and in syria and in other parts of the muslim world that this monster is gone. his impact on their lives, on the lives in the middle middle east is far greater than his impact on the united states. that makes him quite different in that respect from bin laden. he killed more muslims, more arabs, more iraqis and syrians than americans. >> bobby, how about his impact on the operations of isis? does this weaken isis or does it strengthen it and embolden his followers and supporters? >> well, isis has been morphing for a while now since it lost that territorial hold, it's been going back to the hit and run suicide operation kind of terrorism. it's a big blow. look, when a decapitation like this happens the group loses a bit of morale, it loses its ability to raise funds. i mean, this is a man that has run that group for a long time.

the people who give the money to some degree give it because he is in charge. whoever the new leader is will have to build that credibility with donors as well as with recruits coming in. however, it's worth pointing out that a decapitation doesn't always necessarily mean the less guy will be less effective. we've seen with al baghdadi himself when his predecessor was killed there was a hope that this would be a big blow to isis, instead we got al baghdadi who was, in anything, worse than his predecessor. it's always possible the next guy will be worse, more effective, more deadly than al baghdadi himself. for a while now the group is going to have to go through a kind of reorganization and will hunker down and that's -- that presents an opportunity for all the other authorities in the field, americans, the turks, the iraqis to do more damage when the group is most vulnerable. >> you know, erin, bobby makes the point of the reaction there in syria and iraq with regard to the june lance.

how about where you are in turkey as this news is trickling out, are you sensing the reaction there? >> reporter: yeah, well, this news would most certainly be welcomed here in turkey. isis is perceived as a universal enemy almost so to speak here within the region, so people here on the border would most certainly welcome this development. >> all right, erin mclaughlin, bobby ghosh, thank you both very much. much appreciated. we have the day's other breaking news. there is a mass shooting to report from texas. we will bring you the latest next. st next ♪

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breaking news leads the morning's headlines. this is new video from the scene of a shooting police say occurred at an unsanctioned homecoming party outside greenville, texas, for fks a & m university at commerce. students were present there, hunt county police say two people are confirmed dead, 14 are injured. their conditions are unknown. the shooter is still at large. even more california residents are expected to be without power today. nearly 2.7 million people in the golden state could be impacted by pacific pass and electric's expanding its blackout zone. this as high winds are stoking those flames. winds today could gust as high as 80 miles an hour. and police clashed with protesters this morning in hong kong. demonstrations in the city are entering their 21st week with activists converging on the

harbor today to denounce alleged police brutality over the months of protests. riot police fired off tear gas to try to business burrs the thousands of activists. a terrorist hunter joins me next about the day's breaking news about the leader of isis, whether isis will get weaker and what it's like going under cover in a very dangerous region of the world. cover in a very dangerous region of the world. ♪

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back with more on the breaking news of steer yria. the isis leader dead. this is new video of the location this morning. you're seeing to the left of your screen. u.s. special ops forces carried out the raid on the suspected isis safe house. they used helicopters, jets, drones, all of that to strike. that compound was destroyed after the raid. officials believe isis leader abu bakr al baghdadi is dead. joining me, a former cia oppive active and author of the new book "life undercover" coming of age in the cia. amaryl his, a big welcome to you. i offered my admiration for what you do.

you hunted the world's most dangerous terrorists. when you heard the news this morning about al baghdadi, what went through your mind? >> well, this is really a victory of many of those governmen governments, families around the world who suffered such terrible civilian casualties at the hands of isis. the timing is really interesting here. you remember that al baghdadi is known even within his own group as the invisible sheikh, right? up until this year, we haven't seen him in public since july 4th, 2014 when he formally declared the creation of this so-called caliphate. and i called it so-called, because islamic governments and theologians around the world have decried its legitimacy. this is a man who led to group over five years of killing

civilians, many of them muslim across the middle east and around the world, and who, in his personal life, was as far from islamic presips as could possibly be. he took a wife, a kidnapped american aid worker, repeatedly raped her before she lost her life there. this is not somebody who the islamic world will mourn. >> i'm curious, if you can tell us anything about him that we might already know, and did you hunt him specifically? >> well, one of the things that's interesting about al baghdadi, like al czzarqawi, he was known to be a scholar and not very respected within the community and managed to reinvent himself as a leader and

called on the fact that nobody knew anything about his background and kind of twisted that to make it mysterious and and appealing and kind this invisible sheikh moniker. we have seen that time and again. zarqawi had all kinds of questionable issues about his mother and was not very stable or well respected in the community before reinventing himself as the leader of al qaeda in iraq, which is really isis's precursor. so whether or not there is somebody else waiting in the wings who will reinvent himself to take his place, remains to be seen. but i did certainly work on the precursors to isis. isis itself emerged after i left national security work. but what we found is that in groups that are not very

hierarch hierarchal, and isis is one of them, where the fighters take on a decentralized kind of structure, it's really not as effective in bringing an end to the group when you decompass tate the leader. >> what was it like being a woman under deep cover? horrible things could happen to you as a woman. was it easier to get information? how did you do all of that? >> one of the things that is exciting in the intelligence woman at the moment is seeing more and more women take on leadership roles. because my experience was that actually the feminine approached problem-solving, the emotional intelligence and in tuition and multitasking are critical to the intelligence officer. we don't necessarily see them

reflected in the kind of hollywood depictions that are out there. but it is so important for young women to take on this work. so it's been very exciting to see more and more women running the agency and the director comprise it. >> your book "life undercover," i suggest people pick it up. absolutely fascinating. thank you for joining us on msnbc. >> thank you. >> john kelly said he delivered a big warning to the president and it is a spat that keeps escalating. there is a new twist this morning. ng there is a new twist this morning. i am royalty of racing, i am alfa romeo. ayou listen to advyour client's goal ofen. sending her daughter to the music school of her dreams. and you help her turn it into reality.

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hour with we"weekends with alex witt". now it's time for "up" with david gura. break news on "up". i'm david gura. we are about an hour away from what the white house says will be a major speech from president trump. last night on twitter he wrote, something very big has happen. and since then, we have learned that a u.s.-led raid targeted the world's most wanted terrorist, head of isis, in northwest syria. this comes amid a troubling week of the president. the house's impeachment inquiry continues. it is something his former chief of staff all but admits is coming. he said he warned not to pick a yes man as a