tv Hardball With Chris Matthews MSNBC October 30, 2019 4:00pm-5:00pm PDT
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still at work late into the tonight you see here on the rules for the impeachment vote tomorrow. i want to tell you this sunday 9:00 p.m. eastern we'll be back with a brand new impeachment special. sunday 9:00 p.m. eastern and we'll keep an eye on this. don't go anywhere, though, "hardball" starts now. avalanche. let's play hardball. good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. powerful new evidence tonight in the impeachment investigation. nbc news is reporting that lieutenant colonel alexander vindman testified yesterday that u.s. military support to ukraine was indeed contentioned on ukraine's willingness to dig up dirt on political apoinants.
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and that's according to two people familiar with vindman's testimony. to draw a direct line between the hold up of military aid and trump's demand of political assistance from a foreign power. this comes as the impeachment committees today heard from two foreign service officers with information about the shadow campaign there was waged to influence policy towards ukraine. house investigators are also summoned former national security advisor john bolton among others to testify next week. bolton's lawyers said he would not appear voluntarily, but added, i stand ready at all times to accept service of a subpoena on his behalf. amid all of this we're also getting new details about the democrats' plan forward on impeachment with a momentous vote scheduled for tomorrow. when it comes to lieutenant colonel vindman there's also new reporting today he shed new light on trump's infamous july 25th call with ukrainian
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president zelensky. nbc news confirms that vindman told congress that certain details of the conversation were omitted from the white house summary of the call. omissions that he tried to put back in. vindman identified at least two points left out of the official record. one, trump mentioning possible recordings of joe biden discussing corruption in ukraine, and two, ukrainian president zelensky, quote, mentioning burisma by name, the company related to hunter biden. he tried to correct the record but while some of his edits appeared to have been successful he said those two corrections were not made in the final summary of that call. well, that call record was already a damning piece of evidence for trump. it showed that when zelensky, quote, requested more missiles trump asked him in return to investigate his political opponents. but these revelations make it even worse. the omitted details are further
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evidence trump knew he was specifically targeting biden and zelensky read him loud and clear. i'm joined by dina titus, peter baker, glen kirschner, a former federal prosecutor, and jeff bennett is nbc news white house correspondent. jeff, tell us about your reporting today that vindman in his sworn testimony yesterday in that deposition said the military aid was contingent on the dirt on the trump enemies. >> and remember, chris, in the opening statement we obtained vindman told investigators he did not think it was proper for this administration to demand that a foreign government investigate a u.s. citizen. that word, demand, struck me as curiously conspicuous. he could have chosen any number of words. he could have said request,
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encourage, suggest, but he used the word demand. it turns out during the course of his testimony he went beyond that prepared statement. and investigators were told by two sources familiar is that the president drew a direct line between the white house deliverables, this noelgz that there would be a meeting between presidents trump and zelensky, this delivery of nearly $400 million in security and aid money and to this demand that ukrainian officials open investigations into a number of things, burisma, the company on which hunter biden sat on the board of, the bidens, the 2016 election into crowd strike. and so basically what he's doing, he's telegraphing this quid pro quo that president trump and his allies say did not exist. the same quid pro quo that mick mulvaney the acting white house chief of staff openly admitted to in the white house briefing room before trying to walk it back a day later, chris. >> this gets to the heart of those who think trump is a
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cartoon of a president. when nobody's listening he really is bad as people think, how he can exploit some crazy conspiracy theory of the farthest right fringe, crowd strike, that that's really who he is. your thoughts and how that propels forward this impeachment. >> well, i can't tell you exactly what went on behind closed doors, but i can tell you that testimony was certainly in keeping with the witness' statement that he made public, and he recorded it in realtime, reported it to his superior so you know he was upset about it and knew it was wrong. as for the president, yes, it doesn't surprise me. he's a transactional president. he likes to brag about being able to make a deal, and making a deal and really quid pro quo. >> peter, it seems to me i'll say something i read years ago when fdr became president his
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idea of becoming president, of rising to the office was to beat franklin roosevelt. this president thinks in becoming president he becomes donald trump. at donald trump's worst there's nothing presidential in these conversations about they're hearing about under oath in the last couple of days from taylor and vindman. we're hearing about a conman, in the words of pelosi, i can shakedown this foreign leader because the russian tanks are moving. he needs javelin missiles to stop them. i can get some dirt out of this guy because he's desperate for his own country's security. i can use that fear of losing his country to get dirt for my next election. this is low brow stuff. >> well, i think it's important to remember about president trump he's the first president we've had in our history who comes to public office without having served even a day in government or the military before arriving in the oval office. so everything to him is through the prism of his 70-year life up
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until now which is in business and entertainment where the lines are different where they are in diplomacy, they're different in government. and he's chosen not to observe the lines his predecessors did. he got there on the strength of his style, his ram bunbunctious provocative style. the he sees it as the office should adjust itself to him. this is what got him in trouble because there are norms and standards and lines that have been adopted over the years. some of them legal, some of them diplomatic and political. does that add up to something larger than, you know, shocking the, you know, standards of washington, or does it actually add up to something constitutional. >> you write the manu nalsis of the front page of "the times," the voice of trump we heard on the bus an "access hollywood,"
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the voice we heard through michael cohen how he paid off porn stars for sex and playboy bunnies and the whole works, that guy -- is that guy in the white house? >> well, look, he's a transactional person and in that sense, yes. in the sense he looks at these conversations with foreign leaders in the same way he did talking with banks or talking with someone he wants to do a deal with. >> i know why you're doing it but you're skirting it. that sounds like the same patwa if you will. the voice you hear as translated, the voice on that phone by zelensky sounds like the same guy on the bus, sounds like the same guy working through his fixer, lawyer cohen
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is now thinking get away with something in those transactions with foreign leaders desperate to save -- they're being patriotic. they're saving their country from the russian tanks. what's he doing? what's our guy doing? >> chris, you use the word shakedown. that's what was going on here. and let me try to break it down in laymans terms for people because we hear contingent foreign aid and quid pro quo, and people tend to get lost in that kind of verbiage, so now i think the republicans are pivoting. why because the process argument is falling by the wayside, the no quid pro quo argument is dead and stinking on the side of the road at this point. so what do we have? we have the republicans saying, well, putting conditions on foreign aid is not out of bounds. that may be. think about this -- >> will they go that far? >> they will go that far because that's all they're going to have left. if we say you know what we're
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going to give $400 million in aid to a foreign country but we tell that contra yo need to stop government sanctioned ethnic cleansing in that country, that would be a good thing. but what do we have trump doing, trump says i've got your $391 million in aid, and but you know what i want, this is hypothetically, he could be saying i want a piece of it, i want a little kick back. we would all say that's dead wrong, an abuse of power and impeachable offense. he's doing something worse than that, why? because a million dollar kick back is only worth so much. dirt on biden, a fabricated investigation that will help him win in 2020 is so much more. >> anyway, lieutenant colonel vindman's account appears to confirm that the white house summary of the trump-zelensky call was not entirely accurate or complete. that's because the inclusion of
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ellipses, those little three dots that says something is missing suggests three excerpts were either removed or simply left out. "the new york times" reports that vindman's edits would have filled in one of those blanks. quote, where the third set of ellipses appears and while vindman says he doesn't know why some of his edits were rejected, it row counts how the call was handled. it was locked down on a secure server that serves this country's highly classified state secrets. they squirreled it away in an old lock down somewhere. congressman, titus, tell us about this. i know you're bound to secrecy about the word spoken today, but the smell of it, what are you getting here in all these back door hearings in the scif?
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>> the fact they put it in that secret lock down place again tells you it was out of the ordinary, and although they said they would give us a direct transcript, they didn't. they gave us a summary. and don't forget the summary said i want you to do us a favor, though. i want to go back to your earlier point, though. this isn't just about not using good diplomatic language and being a good politician and not being a good businessman, this is constitutional issues. this is national security. this affects not just us and ukraine but us and russia. i think it's much greater than that. and what the president and republicans are doing is classic wag the dog. they can't defend the actions. they have no defense against the facts and so they try to change the subject. they order pizza in the secure room. they talk about how -- anything to change the subject, complain about the procedure because they
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have no defense. >> let me go to jeff on that because you're covering this for nbc news. tell me about this, what is their defense when they realize they can't argue process anymore because they're going to get the resolution tomorrow, they're going to get to testify in judiciary committee and all that, what are they saying about the fundamental question whether a president with shakedown a foreign leader for dirt on an opponent? >> you saw the tweet from the president today where he was subjecting republicans defend him on the merits of the case. and you are not seeing by and large republicans do that. they started attacking the process. they said it shouldn't happen behind closed doors. this will all be out in the public. at one point they were saying the whistle-blower complaint was based on hearsay and couldn't be believed. well, now the whistle-blower complaint is largely secondary because it has been borne out by witness after witness in the testimony. and yesterday you saw some in the conservative chattering
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class issue this spurious smear against lieutenant colonel vindman based on the nature of his birth, the country where he was born. and republicans here on the hill for the most part in leadership wouldn't get behind it. so it would appear to me and we'll have to see tomorrow where this vote happens where republicans go next. so far we've heard some of them say because the house speaker has called on this vote for resolution that will happen tomorrow, anything that happens before it is illegitimate. >> today the senate foreign relations committee questioned deputy secretary of state john sullivan who was hoping to be confirmed as the new u.s. ambassador to russia. and here's what sullivan said when asked if it was appropriate for a president to ask a foreign power to investigate a political opponent. >> soliciting an investigation into a domestic political opponent, i don't think that would be in accord with our values. >> well, sullivan was also asked about the former u.s. ambassador
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to ukraine maria yovanovitch who trump abruptly removed in may. >> in your view was there any basis to recall ambassador yovanovitch earlier? >> yes, there was. the president had lost confidence in her. >> you were aware there were individuals and forces outside the state department seeking to smear ambassadoria von. is that correct? >> i was. >> and seeking to remove her. and did you know mr. giuliani was one of those people? >> i believe he was, yes. when the president loses confidence in the ambassador, right or wrong, the ambassador needs to come home. >> late today giuliani reacted to sullivan's portrayal of his smear campaign saying the ambassador doesn't know what he's talking about, this is orchestrated attempt to morass and hinder me. giuliani has his own problems now because i think he was mixing his business with trump's along the way, making money
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along the way, living off the land if you will. and now is he going to be shock doesn't go down. after the parnas and frumans go down, and we saw how inextricably intertwined those folks were. if we see giuliani go uncharged it's only because bill barr is protecting him. if you let u.s. attorney berman from the southern district of new york to his own devices, he will follow the evidence and the evidence will result for charges for rudy giuliani. >> thank you congresswoman dina titus of nevada, the great peter baker, glen kirschner and jeff bennett. coming up, democrats will make their case president trump committed high crimes and misdemeanors by focusing on the abcs, abuse of power, betrayal of public interest, corruption, putting private interest above public trust.
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most of it will play out live on your tv screens. we're going to talk and walk you through what to expect. this is tv coming attraction, step by step in the next segment. we'll tell you what's happening all through november, possibly into december, finishing up we hope for votes on articles of impeachment this year. plus trump's impeachment strategy. fight to the death i guess with lies, and most of all character assassination, smearing public servants like lieutenant colonel alexander vindman. we've shown that. much more to get to tonight. stick with us. n that much more to get to tonight. stick with us. coughing oh no,... ...a cougher. welcome to flu season, karen. is a regular flu shot strong enough... ...to help prevent flu in someone your age? there are standard-dose flu shots. and then there's the superior flu protection... ...of fluzone high-dose. it's the only 65 plus flu shot... ...with 4 times the standard dose. and it's free with medicare part b. fluzone high-dose is not for those who've had a severe allergic reaction...
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will be open to the public view just as it should be. >> in my view it's not a fair process, it's not an open process, and it's certainly not been a transparent process. >> i mean, if you think this is fair, this is not fair at all. >> all of the process that i hear you all arguing about doesn't address the possibility that this president has committed high crimes and misdemeanors. >> well, the resolution lays out the democrats' general format and parameters for the impeachment inquiry moving forward. the full house is expected to vote or scheduled to vote on the resolution tomorrow, thursday. it would give the house intelligence committee the lead role in conducting public hearings, according to "the new york times," those would begin as early as the week in november, voting november 11th which is coming up next. the intelligence committee will compile its findings in a report, transmit them, the evidence they've collected to the judiciary committee which would then hold its own public hearings. if the judiciary committee
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determines it has enough evidence it will recommend one or more to the house. it's a three step, intelligence, judiciary, full house. the full house would then vote on articles of impeachment to send to the senate where the president would be put on trial. house leaders have stressed they have no formal timetable moving forward, but according to "the washington post" house leaders had initially hoped to hold a floor vote before the november 28th holiday so that the senate would hold the third trial before christmas. but the surprising number of witnesses coming forward agreeing to testify behind closed doors in the capitol over the past few weeks has extended the time line. we'll see if that's good or bad. for more i'm joined by democratic congresswoman jackie spear of california. a member of the house intelligence and oversight committees. elizabeth is president of the constitutional accountability center. congresswoman, thank you. as always jackie spear from california. i guess the question is do you have a clear-cut vision in your
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head how this is going to proceed through the month of november on into getting articles of impeachment on the house floor? >> so, really, chris, we don't know because we don't know how many more witnesses will come forward. but certainly our plan is to start moving into public hearings, wrap that up and present it to the judiciary committee so that they can do their work. i can't put a time line on it. i don't know anyone else frankly can at this point. >> is there a point of diminishing returns? we've got enough witnesses to say the same exact thing, that there was a quid pro quo at work in the relationship with zelensky of ukraine. it was a done deal, we've got all the evidence. what does two more weeks of witnesses accomplish? >> well, it does add more facets to the final articles of impeachment. for instance, i'll give you an example, up until very recently we didn't know anything about
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mr. livingston and how he was hounding persons within the national security counsel and how he was trashing the ambassador marie yovanovitch. so i actually want to know who's paying him, why he was doing it, all of the lines that were being used were false. and they were all contrived. so i think there's more to know, frankly. >> okay, you've got me there. you've proved your point. who was mr. livingston, a new figure. >> he was a congressman who over the last decade or so has run a lobbying shop -- >> from louisiana. >> that's correct. >> he was sitting next to me at -- funeral. i saw saw him recently. anyway, thank you. the was e resolution effectively
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voting on tomorrow neutralizes republican arguments about the way democrats have conducted the inquiry so far. but the president's supporters continue to blast the process today. >> still behind closed doors, lack of due process and they're trying to create something new that i think is just substandard and dangerous to the presidency. >> it falls way short, way short. no due process now, maybe some later but only if we feel like it is not a standard that should ever be applied to any american and should not be applied here to the president of the united states. >> well, none of that seems to work with me. let me go on with you, elizabeth. tell us how you see the particulars of what's this is going to look like. a lot of this is going to be on television, which is good. >> if you think about the constitutional impeachment process it's like the grand jury in a criminal trial coming up with the charges, that's the house doing the investigation to come up with articles of
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impeachment and then the trial which is where you have the due process rights and criminal system come into play in the senate. to be clear the republicans arguments about process are bad and wrong, but i guess they're not as bad or wrong as the substantive defenses of the president. what i think is important to think about here is not the immediate political moment, but this is constitutional moment for the ages because the president hasbused his office in a way that would be the founders worst nightmare, selling out national security and democratic integrity. so i think the public nature of the hearings you mentioned is going to be important especially leading up to whatever trial might happen in the senate. because we know that mitch mcconnell is willing to go to bat for this president and is willing to manipulate senate norms and rules in order to do that. and so i think putting these public hearings out in the house will put more pressure on mcconnell to have a robust trial of the senate. >> congresswoman, how do you keep the hearings focused on the case against the president,
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basically the prosecution case before impeachment and not let it get crazy like it did with the cory lewandowski horror show that day in judiciary? that's a disastrous hearing i thought. >> so the hearing i think will be very focused. you're going to have staff counsel doing the questioning. members are going to sit there and listen to the questioning and the answers, and then at the end of the hearing there will be questions that members can ask. but to the point of is this fair, the truth of the matter is that both for nixon and for clinton they -- the president did not have the opportunity to ask questions and did not have the opportunity to offer a conclusion at the end of the house deliberation. so this is far more generous. and for all the whining going on by some of my republican colleagues when the benghazi hearing took place, there were over 107 closed door interviews
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before the first public hearing took place. and the first public hearing was four months after the committee was created. so we're fiv weeks into this. we've had about 12 interviews. the public is going to have the opportunity to hear and hear a lot very soon. >> do you have any confidence or any hope among your republican colleagues that you'll get some votes on the house floor when the articles do come up for a vote? >> i think that's some speculation that there might be one or two. obviously congressman amash who was a republican and now is an independent could indeed be voting with us. francis rooney from florida who was willing to look at an impeachment process andquiry has now announced that he's not running for re-election. so persons are in a position to be more frank and i think forward thinking when they're no longer part of the republican
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caucus. >> thanks so much. u.s. congresswoman jackie spier. up next, so far the republican line of defense against impeachment is to attack the accusers. is this really all they've got, is this all there is. quoting peggy lee, is that all there is, attack these people? you're watching "hardball." there is, attack these people? you're watching "hardball. ophar. pursuing life-changing cures in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that.
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corrupt president in our nation's history. when i called for his impeachment two years ago, washington insiders and every candidate for president said it was too soon. but i believed then, as i do now, that doing the right thing was more important than political calculations. and over eight million people agreed. we proved that there is no challenge that americans can't meet when we work together. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message. doprevagen is the number oneild mempharmacist-recommendeding? memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. billions of problems. sore gums? bleeding gums? painful flossing? there's a therabreath for you. therabreath healthy gums oral rinse fights gingivitis and plaque and prevents gum disease for 24 hours. so you can... breathe easy, there's therabreath at walmart.
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there's no there there. you know, they begin -- they do the usual thing, right it? they bring in another guy they believe is beyond reproach like mueller. he's a decorated guy, head of the fbi, meanwhile it took about 30 seconds for people to realize when they put him on the stand that he'd never even seen the mueller report. it was a joke, so now they'll do it with this guy. he's a decorated -- now it turns out he's talking with -- >> you know trump watches that show in his bubble bath every morning. he just sucks it up. he's gotten a little old, a little slow on the reaction, it's not the issue. that doesn't mean he didn't read the report he came out with. that was an idiotic statement.
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it's the kind of performance president trump seems to relish as he faces the threat of impeachment. he's urged republican lawmakers to go on the attack. but as the facts continue to mount up against him republicans have been left with two lines of attacks, neither convincing. the first is on process. >> if you want to talk about a soviet style process, again, that might be what they do in the soviet union, not in the united states of america. we can't stand for this. >> don't mention russia, sir, it's not smart. the second line of attack the character assassination of witnesses and people overseeing the inquiry. >> when adam schiff engaged in a theatrical retelling of president trump's conversation with president zelensky to deceive and disorient the american people, he acted in a way that was not consistent with house rules and was not consistent with house evidence. i'm going to go to the ethics committee and i'm going to file an ethics complaint against adam
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schiff. >> charlie, for the people tell us about how the republican defense is working out there starting with process. >> well, first of all, i think yesterday was a bad day because, you know, they're going to hide behind process for as long as they can because they don't want to deal with the substance and mounting evidence but also as they point out it's a reflex. it's the first page of the play book which is to attack anyone disloyal to donald trump to smear them. >> they're running out of -- they've got a lot of people who will do anything, and then they have people now who trim it. for example it's inappropriate, liz cheney will say it's wrong. they're starting to come out with people who say this is where i get off the bus. >> this is the problem republicans have right now, because they're trapped and they're realizing they're in for
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five, six months of having to defend the indefensible. so they're looking for a safe space. and the safe space is the conduct was wrong but not impeachable. but donald trump and trump world may not let them get away with it. because they're demanding you have to say it was perfect, and that anyone who testifies against him must be vilified. and you could yesterday a lot of republicans sort of recoiling from that with colonel vindman. this was just a bridge too far for them. >> what does trump do to those people? what can he do to a republican who trims him a little? >> that's the big question. is he going to attack them because this is party that's lived in fear of all the tweets. this is why republicans find themselves in this box canyon where they have know easy choices because they have empowered donald trump, they have convinced trump he can take them for granted and as a result his conduct has become more reckless, more extreme wrer more lawless and now they're in a
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position they're going to face an up or down vote on whether or not they're going to ratify this conduct. >> i opened this show with the word avalanche, because it seems two weeks ago starting with bill taylor, the envoy to kiev, they're talking. what happened? why all of a sudden did these top diplomats come forward under oath giving the full case how trump shook down that foreign leader? >> i remember seeing a documentary where they interviewed veterans of world war i who were in the trenches and they said why didn't you go over the top and charge into the machine guns is it because you were patriotic or brave, and they said no, it's because the other guy did, too. it's amazing how a critical mass of courage can cause people to step forward. and i think other people in the government are looking around and saying it's important, the constitution is at stake, the national security is at stake. and when they see other people willing to go over the top, it was a chain reaction and i don't think that chain reaction is
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done yet. >> i think you're right. i think there's something moving there. during yesterday's testimony of vindman republicans blamed intel chairman adimschiff for blocking them from asking certain questions that schiff says was their attempt to identify the whistle-blower. republican congressman gym jordan refuted that charge calling schiff too sensitive. that's a cute line. while at the same time demanding to learn the whistle-blower's identity. >> it seems interesting to me that chairman schiff is so sensitive, i mean point out last week there were 435 members of congress, only one of them knows who the whistle-blower is and somehow he doesn't want anyone else to know that. mr. schiff and his staff are the only ones in america who can know. >> well, that's a cute little line, sensitive. we've been there before. on the issue here, though, i'll ask you the obvious, this is setup question. why do they want to identify or expose the whistle-blower at
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this point because somebody says it's snowing outside, we all walk outside and see that it's snowing, it doesn't matter who told us it was snowing outside. we see it. >> we see it and it is not subtle. they want to expose the whistle-blower because this of course has been the play book they've gone to reflexively. but as you point out the whistle-blower is no longer that relevant. it's like someone calling 911 and saying the house is on fire and people go they see the house is on fire. you don't need the information. plus there's a reason why we have the whistle-blower protection act. and you see by watching their behavior why you would want to protect the anonymity of that whistle-blower. again, there's an expiration date on all of this. after this vote that's going to take place tomorrow, all of these process complaints become obsolete. and i think it's dawning on a lot of them they're going to be moving into this next phase where the president is going to force them to defend, go to the
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wall, smear patriotic americans, and they don't know how it's going to go. and we've seen how the president behaves under pressure. >> i don't think they're convincing their 40% of the country. they're simply equipping them with talking points. give me the talking points that i can recite, so they say this thing about the whistle-blower. up next, why was acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney left in the dark on that raid to kill al baghdadi, and is acting chief of staff mulvaney even acting anymore? does this indicate the white house is in even more disarray than we thought? i'm sorry, i am the team. that's what trump says, i am the team. you're watching "hardball." sayse team you're watinchg "hardball. it's tough to quit smoking cold turkey. so chantix can help you quit slow turkey. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. with chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting.
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of the most consequential military operations of his presidency. that resulted in the death of one of the most reviled global terrorist abu bakr al-baghdadi. late today providing additional it tails and released these dramatic images of american commandos conducting the raid. there they are in action. missing from the president's side during the raid was the president's chief of staff mick mulvaney. one person close to the white house tells nbc news the president didn't include mulvaney because he doesn't see him as having a role in national security issues. but that breaks with precedent. chiefs of staff usually play central roles in key moments like this. mulvaney was roughly 500 miles away, however, spending the weekend with his family in south carolina. it was an oddly timed weekend to take a break. but just last week mulvaney walked into the white house briefing room and told reporters the president did in fact with hold military aid to ukraine in exchange for help investigating democrats. he admitted it. he tried to redirect those
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comments a few hours later. but a person close to the president tells nbc that mulvaney was cooked after that performance and he's increasingly been side lined in the white house since. what exactly is going on inside the white house? we've got a former insider coming up after the break to tell us what goes on. you're watching "hardball." tell us what goes on you're watching "hardball. mini is a different kind of car. ♪ ladies and gentlemen for a different kind of drive. ♪ ladies and gentlemen for the drive to create a new kind of family car, that became a new kind of race car. for the drive to rebel, zag. for the drive that's inside you. and inside us. that's the drive under the hood of every mini. because every mini is... for the drive. ♪ asbut when your team is always dealing with device setups,
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welcome back to "hardball." acting chief of staff mick mulvaney has been in hot waters since he admitted to the administration ukraine quid pro quo earlier this month. former george w. bush chief of staff told nbc news that it was bafflering. according to a person close to the president one possible explanation is, quote, mick self- self-immolated. for more i'm joined by anita kumar, and guy snaudgrass, and author of "holding the line inside trump's pentagon with secretary mattis." first, this weird -- well, there's no chain of command. there's just the president now.
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>> we call it a presidency of one. more and more its him making decisions without concementing other people, without having his advisers around. and all the people you know, the people that pushed back and really debated things with him told him what they thought, they're all gone. >> so you know in the loop we all know that expression. i always ask people who's in the room when the boss is in trouble? who does he or she bring into the room while on the phone, help me? >> he does call people and talk to people but a lot of these people are outside the white house. they are his friends, and so he calls them up and talks to them. but i don't know that he says i need help, so he does consult people but not in the usual way. not in the room, not in the oval office where they're all sitting around having a discussion about
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things. >> when you work for somebody you hope the boss has some loyalty to you. that's you're there because you're loyal to him or her. how do you see this situation with chief of staff side lined to the point he's not even in the room when the big balloon goes up? >> serving with secretary mattis you see some people read more -- when i was in the room and now we're talking about where mick mulvaney is or is not, it feels like we're just rearranging the chairs on the titanic. >> what is alarming? >> when you think about where we are today we're focus inward and of course our adversaries around the world are seeking to exploit that and our alliances are starting are erode as well. >> in the room, on the reporting side of this thing, this is his third chief of staff in two
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years. he obviously doesn't run an organized camp, an organized white house. 6:30 in the morning when you're tweeting, you don't need anybody aroundia to tweet, i guess. >> there have been a number of times where aides have said they've found out what he's doing and thinking by his points. they're finding out the same way we're finding out. i think muck mulvaney found out about the raid by twitter or by the media. so he's not consulting people, but he's not also cluing them in and telling them what's going to happen, so they're prepared with how to message them, how to talk about it, what to say, whatnot to say. they're not included from the beginning. >> do you think he's in touch with the reality right now and he faces imminent impeachment before the end of the year, go down in history books as one of the three presidents impeached -- one of the two presidents impeached. it will be a fact impeached --
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one of two -- i'm sorry, three. andrew johnson, bill clinton and himself, three. >> there are a lot of scenes in the book, there are a lot of positive things that have occurred in the last two years as we've strengthened the military, but you want to have your own staff, your own department of defense and other agencies aligned -- >> what do you think of him taking credit for the raid on baghdadi? >> i think that credit belongs to all the american forces that took part -- >> he didn't do that. >> i didn't catch what exactly -- >> he said i did it. anita? it looks like he was there. >> yeah, we've seen him do this before, right? when there are accomplishments he takes the accomplishments, he brags about things and he does take that credit. now, sometimes he does talk about other people but generally
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it's not his staff. he likes to credit other people. he does talk about the military, law enforcement. but he does do that, and we're going to see him campaigning on this raid because he's already started to do that. >> he is facing impeachment and worse. thank you so much. your book's called "holding the line inside trump's pentagon with secretary mattis." up next voters are not convinced they have a general election winner. convinced they have a general election winner ...for a sensational full-fan effect. lash sensational. only from maybelline new york. hey allergy muddlers... achoo!
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i spotted something in the run up to the democratic presidential context next year, it's that yellow flag you see in the stock car races, it keeps waving the sign from voters, that they want the decision to slow down, they're not ready, much less enthusiastic about being forced to make a decision like this. it's a good poll. it shows 18% of likely democratic voters, people who are going to vote are undecided. it also shows that 57%, a very strong majority of those who have a favorite already aren't all that committed to him or her, that their minds aren't firmly made up. it shows in the recent rise of mayor pete buttigieg against the front runners, biden, warren and sanders already he sits 3 points behind bernie sanders.
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the rise of buttigieg shows the race hasn't gelled yet, not even remotely. all which tells me this race is still in its early stretches. well, that used to refer to the election year itself. but the last game of this series is tonight and the msnbc "the washington post" debate is november 20th, a week before thanksgiving. and so far, i'll give it to you straight, warren's run the best race, elizabeth warren. biden has yet to do what he has to do, and bernie is still very much in the contest. but pete could easily win, pete buttigieg in iowa, leaving the whole fight up in the air and that tells us that the democrats have yet to get their hands and heads around the person they strongly believe can beat donald trump. and this explains why this new usa today suffolk poll has
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predicting by a 10 point spread -- this will blow you away -- that trump will get a second term. but i also don't sense that the country can't yet see who can beat the guy. and that's still up to the candidates. because if you can't beat trump, all of this is just a wastef our time. that's "hardball" for now. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. tonight on "all in." >> this will be probably the fourth time in our nation's history that congress has considered the presidential impeachment process. no one runs for congress to impeach a president, but we are here today because the facts compel us to be. >> tonight democrats take the first public steps in the impeachment inquiry as more witnesses testify in private. >> are you concerned about white house retaliation? >> and john bolton is formally asked to testify. >> you kn
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