show on sirius xm radio, the msnbc app and apple tv. you can always find me on social media, twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, and indeed linkedin. thank you for watching. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace begins right now. ♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we are getting our very first look at the first batch of transcripts from witnesses in the impeachment investigation into donald trump. they provide a breathtaking and disturbing look at how life-long diplomats were threatened, intimidated, coerced and smeared by donald trump and his allies. the transcripts paint a devastating picture of the foreign policy process, twisted and contorted to serve donald trump's political ambitions, not u.s. national security. and if a single fact pattern emerges from the nearly 500 pages of sworn testimony, it's the constant and repeated clash between donald trump's attempts at corrupting u.s. foreign

policy to smear political opponents and the quiet resistance to his corruption from career public servants with decades of service to united states presidents under republicans and democrats. also clear in the transcripts released today is the sub version of bilateral relationships with the security interests of u.s. allies at their core. in their core a transactional policy agenda with donald trump's political aims at its core from. that transcript of the interview with former u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch, it becomes clear that she feared for her safety, that her calls to the state department went largely unanswered and that the danger she represented to donald trump was that she was onto him and his personal lawyer rudy giuliani. from those transcripts on the call she received from the director general the foreign service who called yovanovitch in april to tell her she should get on the next plane home. yovanovitch said she didn't know what was happening, but there was a lot of nervousness on the

seventh floor and up the street, meaning at the white house. yovanovitch goes on. she called me about an hour later. so now it's 1:00 a.m. in the ukraine. she said there was a lot of concern for me and that i needed to be on the next plane home to washington. and i was like what, what happened. and she said i don't know, but this is about your security. you need to come home immediately. yovanovitch makes clear that she still feels threatened. also from today's transcripts yovanovitch was asked about part of the white house summary of trump's call with ukrainian president zelensky in which he attacks her. yovanovitch testified to this. quote, i was shocked, i mean, i was very surprised that president trump would, first of all, that i would feature repeatedly in a presidential phone call. but secondly that the president would speak about me or any ambassador in that way to a foreign counterpart. yovanovitch is asked further questions about that call summary in her deposition. she says this.

quote, at the bottom of that same -- this is the question. at the bottom of that same page, president trump says, well, she's going to go through some things. what did you understand that to mean? yovanovitch replies i didn't know what it meant. i was very concerned. i still am. the questioner continues. did you feel threatened? yovanovitch: yes. the transcripts also reveal the depth of yovanovitch and her ukrainian counterparts' misgivings about ukraine becoming embroiled in american domestic politics with one of her contacts there saying, quote, getting into u.s. politics would be a dangerous place for ukraine to be. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. from "the washington post," white house bureau chief phil rucker. plus former chief of staff to vice presidents joe biden and al gore. former republican congressman david jolly. chief public affairs officer from move' on.org, karine

jean-pierre. i didn't get all the way through this, but i read big chunks of it. the tension in her voice, and it's hard to articulate how tough and how seasoned a diplomat like marie yovanovitch is and they all are by and large. but to hear her talk about being threatened and feeling so threatened in her posting, not from the ukrainians but from her domestic enemies in the trump white house was chilling. >> yeah. i mean, first of all she had been in the foreign service for decades, served in some tough places and never experienced something like that because nothing like that had ever happened before. because that's not how we conduct foreign policy in the united states. the other thing i take away from this, nicole, is so much of the focus has been on this one phone call. this was a multimonth-long effort to essentially completely corrupt the relationship between

ukraine and united states to serve trump's interest because she didn't want to go along with rudy giuliani moonlighting the secretary of state and trying to get this dirt on biden. for that you've got the president of the united states disparaging her to a foreign leader. not only does that not serve the national interest of the united states, it actually actively undermines the national interest of the united states. our national interest in ukraine is to have a solid working relationship, a solid assistance relationship where they get the military they need. trump essentially was putting all of that at risk just to get this one outcome that does nothing to help any u.s. national interest. it's a chilling read. >> you know, phil rucker, it's so interesting that the republican position, and i know we are all living dog years covering this impeachment. but it was just a few short days ago that they stormed the skiffs, they stormed the secure briefing rooms for transparency. well, how about that transparency? it's a brutal, brutal takedown

of what i think, as ben said, sort of the corruption of this relationship with an american ally all in the service of dirt on the bidens. >> yeah, nicole. what happened today is exactly what republicans and the president himself have been clamoring for, for weeks which is to see the full transcripts to let the american people hear everything that these witnesses are saying because they thought that the democrats that chairman adam schiff and others were selectively leaking out details from the testimony into the media over the last few weeks. well now we have seen the full transcript from some of these key witnesses including the ambassador. and there's no way to describe this other than a pretty devastating portrayal of the way foreign policy was conducted by the trump administration and by the president himself with regards to ukraine over these last few months. the president has not reacted fully yet to what's ub folded

today. he has been fixated on defending his kuktd in that one goal call with president zelensky of ukraine as perfect or perfecto to use some words that he's been using the last few days. >> always fun to quote him. >> but as ben just pointed out, this is about so much more than that phone call and it's about an entire pattern and work product of foreign policy in the administration that he's going to have to answer for. >> you look at public opinion, and i am fascinated by this, mostly because i was so exasperated that after mueller came out with 400 pages with, at best, misconduct from donald trump and his campaign. it didn't move a blip. this has swung so dramatically because i think it's not just a phone call. it never was just a phone call. if they brazenly released a phone call, that was obviously just the tip of the iceberg. i want to read what ambassador sondland asked her to do. i wasn't this handed as a campaign manager. so yovanovitch testifies at

sondland, that's donald trump's political appointee who served as the ambassador to the e.u. he's testified to a quid pro quo, one of three trump advisers to have done so. but this is him trying to help yovanovitch save herself. he said this is yovanovitch's testimony. sondland said, you know, you need to go big or go home. you need to, you know, tweet out that you support the president and that all these are lies and everything else. and, you know, so, you know, i mean, obviously that was advice. >> it was advice that i did not see how i could implement in my role as an ambassador or as a foreign service officer. so, i don't know sondland, but either he's as corrupt as the rest of them or just stupid. but who asks a career foreign service officer to tweet out a campaign endorsement. that was stunning. >> it's the former, and very importantly it bows sondland's profile. he is the benefactor who gave a million dollars to trump to get an ambassadorship. stands in stark contrast to

somebody like yovanovitch or mckinley who are career foreign service officers that uphold the dignity and integrity of the state department and the united states. sondland was doing the political and personal bidding of donald trump in that moment. yovanovitch wouldn't do it. i think the top line takeaway from the release of these transcripts and the democrats are doing this exactly right. they are trying to keep control of the narrative every single day. yovanovitch confirms that this was a very well corroborated complex intention of trump world to meddle in foreign affairs and do so to benefit the president personally. she actually mentions both giuliani and don jr. by name as meddling. mckinley says the reason i resigned was because this administration is asking ambassadors to do work to benefit the president politically, personally, and i'm not going to do it. the two themes that caught me that i think may be underreported because the facts are so glaring, the first is the security issue that you opened

with about yovanovitch. this is serious. we sat around this table, we have talked about how trump and bolton charlottesville. we talked about how emboldened attacks on elijah cummings in the city of baltimore about aoc, about the bomber and his van who wanted to shoot up the press core and how the president gave comfort to these people. here he is suggesting that yovanovitch is an ambassador who is not supporting donald trump and she said i had to leave the country because there is a personal fear. >> not on her part, from her personal. >> the other thing that i don't think will be touched on is if you read through the transcript, look at how republicans behaved. not a single one of them was concerned about her security. not a single one of them was

concerned about this end-around u.s. policy. not a single one was concerned about u.s. national security. >> it was all attacks on the investigators and undermining the credibility of witnesses. it was one more skurless moment from republicans and for them to suggest that they were locked out, they actually were there. and there's a reason they probably didn't want these transcripts released because it showed juvenile behavior on behalf of leading republicans who were in the room who had no interest in u.s. national security. >> all right. and because i take every description of an underreported story as a personal challenge, let me get to the mckinley. i think that -- i hope it doesn't go underreported. mike pompeo was revealed as a big fat liar. so not only is he a horrific television guest. i mean, i watched that sunday show appearance with george stephanopoulos. i heard from people that he was furious about it. >> he should've been. it was terrible. he found in sworn testimony that he lied when he was asked about

whether or not he heard from advisers asking him to go out on a limb and protect and defend yovanovitch. so from the mckinley transcripts. mckinley, former senior adviser to secretary of state mike pompeo testified to this. this is the second set of transcripts that were released today. so mckinley says morgan reached out to me by phone and told me that the secretary had decided it was better not to release the statement at this time and that it would be, in part, to protect yovanovitch, not to draw any attention to her. so he doesn't want to draw any attention to her by defending her from the president he serves, whose endorsement he might need when he runs for senate. how many conversations did you have with the secretary about this matter? mckinley says three, probably. and the subsequent ones were in the context of because if i can remind, i presented my resignation on monday, september 30th. so it wasn't very long after the initial conversation. and in presenting my resignation, i made clear that i was looking to leave the department. i wasn't looking to create any

news story out of it but that he should be aware that of course part of the reason people were very aware that i was concerned about what i saw as the lack of public support for department employees, three times mckinley said he went to pompeo three times. here's what pompeo said. watch. >> you know, from the time that ambassador yovanovitch departed ukraine till the time that he came to tell me that he was departing, i never heard him say a single thing about his concerns with respect to the decision. >> so you were never asked -- >> not once, george, did ambassador mckinley say something to me during that entire time period. >> wrong claim? >> well, i mean not once turns out to be true because it was three times. you just have to be more clever about this. you read the mckinley relationship and you read the yovanovitch transcript it. >> looks like american foreign policy has become a cross between the three stooges and the godfather. it's an amazing mix of venal,

violent corruption in complete and utter incompetence. that's a toxish combination when you put it together. you left out as long as we're going to go underreported the fact that at one point in time secretary pompeo said he had to call sean hannity to find out what u.s. foreign policy was in one of these transcripts. so the level of insanity and craziness and venality is just unmatched in all this. >> you know, karine, i take all these notes about underreported. we are going to end with a lightning round. you can all play the anchor. but what comes through is precisely the theme that i think is breaking through to the public. what they see and the public -- i mean, there are not a lot of depictions of ambassadors. it's not like the fbi. ambassadors are largely anonymous, they're unknown. but a parade of them, and we today have 500 pages of their testimony. they were scared. they were smeared. they were removed from foreign

countries. again not because they were under risk from the foreign countries in which they served but they were threatened by american political leaders, donald trump, mike pompeo, and rudy giuliani. it's staggering. >> it is staggering and these depositions that we're looking at right now, i mean, they're vile, they're serious, they're chilling, they're devastating. and it just shows how broken our foreign policy is under this president. and, you know, and it's something that you guys said earlier. it's all for his own personal interests, not the national security, not for our safety, for his own political gain to get dirt to go after his own political rivals. and there is something that you guys said that i want to touch on even more, which is this is just the iceberg. how about other countries? how about that secret server, right, that we don't know what's in there, what's going on with that secret server? so -- >> wait, can i just follow -- this is exactly right because

why would he describe it as a perfect call? he'd only describe it as a perfect call if he's had a lot of calls like that. >> exactly, right. because he's done it before. and remember he had this meeting with putin that we just don't know anything about. so there is a fear here that we should all be having is what is this president doing with our foreign policy that we just don't even know about? >> i want to add one thing. i am going to take a host prerogative. one of the things that is in this transcript yovanovitch's sort of deep knowledge about a lot of what's reported today in "the washington post" and we are going to get to it later. but about yovanovitch's knowledge of sort of the dark ops. she knew that rudy giuliani had essentially poisoned trump's mind about the origins of the ukrainian sort of conspiracy theory that his own homeland security tom bossert tried to disavow him of. she testifies that she's asked about concerns from the

ukrainians about these conspiracy theories that were out there. questioner, what were his concerns as expressed to you? yovanovitch says he thought it was -- so he thought it was very dangerous that ukraine since its independence has had bipartisan support from both democrats and republicans all these years, and that to start kind of getting into u.s. domestic politics was a dangerous place for ukraine to be. why did he think he would be getting into u.s. domestic politics by speaking to giuliani? well, because, well, he told me that because of what you had mentioned before, the issue of the black ledger, mr. manafort's resignation from the trump campaign as a result. so when manafort got caught with his pro-russian dirty book of business in ukraine, that was now manifesting itself in the trump/ukrainian relationship it. >> just stinks to high heaven. >> he was working for the russian-backed politicians and oligarchs inside of ukraine before there was a movement to remove them.

the other thing that's so important, nicole, in reading that, rudy giuliani is not a u.s. official. he has no role in american foreign policy. he has no business interacting with american foreign policy. he is just the president's private attorney. yet he is more empowered than our ambassador in the country. and this is a country that we have enormous leverage over. they depend on the assistance. the assistance that was used as leverage in the quid pro quo in exchange for dirt on biden or an investigation on biden. they are so vulnerable to that kind of leverage because they need that assistance. and so it's even more insidious the fact that you have someone not in the u.s. government leveraging u.s. foreign assistance to get this very vulnerable country that is at the center of a lot of american national security interests to do trump's bidding. and on this other point of like what other countries? i sat at this table with you, nicole, to talk about the fact that when trump met with putin, there was not even a u.s. interpreter allowed into that meeting. >> five meetings. >> what is being discussed with

putin? mohammad bin salman that sits on trillions of dollars of money. so the reason this matters so much is we are learning how they conduct foreign policy. and it's not a leap to think this is how they are conducting other places. for the republicans in congress to not treat this seriously is actually them saying we are okay with that, we are okay with complete corruption of american foreign policy for the president's personal interests. and frankly we are okay with putting a country that has been invaded by vladimir putin's russia in this position. i think republicans really need to stop and think hard about whether they want to keep going down this rabbit hole. >> phil rucker, let me ask you sort of to try to wrap everything up. the white house has the transparency that it sent its sycophants. what is the strategy for dealing with the substance here? or is that not on the agenda? >> well, nicole, it seems to be

evolving. the strategy through the first sort of month and a half of this impeachment inquiry had been to ignore the substance and focus all the attacks on the process to accuse, to give adam schiff a nickname to accuse him of subverting the process of doing all of this work in the middle of the day in the dark in the basement of the capitol. well, now trump is yelling at republican allies to get out there and defend him on the substance. but they are not really armed with credible arguments to defend him on the substance. that has been a huge frustration among republicans on capitol hill who feel like they can't defend the president because they are not being given the full facts from the white house about what exactly the president did and what other people in the government were doing with regards to ukraine. the president is irritated that he's not getting these full-throated defenses out there, but a lot of republicans are unwilling to stake their own credibility and reputations on the line to defend him on the

substance. and so that's why you have seen such a focus on these process attacks and these political attacks. i think in the weeks to come, we are going to see it become even more political because this will become a more public process with public hearings. there is an effort outside by steve bannon and some other trump allies including congressman mark meadows to really kick up a lot of dust around these witnesses, to get opposition research out there, and to just try to discredit them publicly before they testify. >> phil rucker, that sounds like a bombshell. tell me more. the plan is to continue to smear yovanovitch in the testimony today reveals that she still feels threatened. there was a repeated taunt of colonel vindman over the weekend. that's the plan? >> you are seeing pieces of it. there is a podcast that steve bannon has been doing on the side where he's talking about a lot of this. you are seeing a lot of conservative media organs that are friendly to the president writing pieces about some of these witnesses. and you actually heard the president himself over the

weekend, i believe, in an answer to a question from kelly o'donnell of nbc suggesting that he knew there was some negative information that's going to be coming out soon about lieutenant colonel vindman. so i think as the hearings become more public, there is a real desire by the president himself and his allies to discredit these witnesses and make them appear to be partisan actors. >> unbelievable. phil rucker, thank you so much for spending some time with us. after the break, the white house gives stonewalling another shot with four no-shows on capitol hill today and a hail mary pass that a judge will agree with their claims of executive immunity. also ahead the white house moves the goal post from no quid pro quo to it might look like a quid pro quo to you, but it's a big beautiful perfect call to me, we'll see how far that gets them. and a major legal setback on donald trump's taxes. how far will he go to keep them hidden from the public? all those stories coming up. high protein. low sugar.

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four witnesses who were scheduled to testify today in the impeachment inquiry skipped their closed-door depositions, all of them have been subpoenaed. john eisenberg, a lawyer to whom several white house officials reported their concerns about the ukraine phone call. michael ellis, whose deputy was part of the discussions about how to handle the transcript of the call. robert blair, the assistant of the president who was reportedly on that call. and brian mccormack. he's rick perry's chief of staff. he's believed to be part of some of the major events under

scrutiny. nbc news has learned that most of the witnesses scheduled for closed-door testimony, the remainder of this week are not expected to appear as requested. house democrats have already insisted they won't go to court to compel those witnesses to testify. instead they will consider their efforts to stonewall lawmakers as part of a separate obstruction article of impeachment. that is, it seems, republicans are starting to circle the wagons around a new defense of the president in a development equal part stunning and predictable, "the washington post" reports trump's allies are ready to acknowledge, wait for it, there was a quid pro quo. but it wasn't an illegal one. and it doesn't rise to the level of an impeachable defense. joining our conversation former deputy assistant attorney general and whistle-blower lawyer harry litman. it might've been a quid pro quo. i mean, what? >> yeah. well, it is this kind of legal cloud. the facts are the facts.

they are now established. there is really no claim to go elsewhere. it's part of what makes it so vile that they are trying to out and otherwise terrorize the whistle-blower vindman, et cetera. the table is set and there's really no one except trump himself, mr. perfecto who will actually try to claim that nothing untoward happened. and now the new stonewalling is sort of mulvaney and others showing that the loyal lieutenants they can make it solid for the boss and keep them from testifying. >> harry, let me jump in. trump is smearing yovanovitch as we speak. >> i'm sure she's a very fine woman. i just don't know much about her. you have to take a look at the transcript because the president of ukraine was not favorably inclined. >> she said she had concerns about rudy giuliani. -- [ inaudible question ] >> but you did your own -- >> i think that the

whistle-blower gave a lot of false information, and you have to see who the whistle-blower is. once i release the transcript, which was almost immediately, the whistle-blower's report was very wrong because, as you know, the whistle-blower covered mostly my transcript, my call, my call with the president of ukraine. so once i release that call, i released a very detailed version of that call. all of a sudden the whistle-blower's report was incorrect, and the whistle-blower seems to have disappeared. and i also wonder what happened to the second whistle-blower and what happened to the informant. they all disappeared once i released the report. the fact is nobody thought i was going to release the report, and then in addition to the report, the ukrainian president made a very strong statement that there was no pressure, there was no anything, and the foreign minister from ukraine made an equally strong statement that there was no pressure. so, look, nobody thought i was

going to issue the report, and i hate to do it because i don't like to issue conversations with foreign leaders, not fair to them. but we sought their approval, we got their approval. we issued it and that was it. >> for what it's worth there, the whistle-blower's contentions that have been corroborated just by yovanovitch's testimony include the whistle-blower alleged that trump allies solicited help with political investigations like the one into the bidens and burisma. and several others corroborate that. whistle-blower complaint contends that rudy giuliani was an essential figure in the pressure campaign. i believe all 11 witnesses have testified before the house investigators corroborate rudy giuliani's centrality to the corrupt parallel, i think ambassador taylor calls it an irregular policy channel. and the smear campaign that led to yovanovitch's removal has been testified to by at least a

half a dozen officials. so, your daily dose of lies from donald trump. >> no, i mean, what's really concerning about this, nicole, is you kind of always knew that because the facts are so clear and the story is so simple. you know, trump pressured the president of ukraine to dig up dirt on a political rival. people can understand that easier than the mueller investigation which is a little complicated to unpack. because the facts are so clear the only place that the republicans could end up is saying, well, you know what, yes, we acknowledge that this happened and it wasn't bad, but we don't think it should rise to the level of impeachment. the republican senators who are going to swallow hard and vote to acquit trump that that's the only place they could land. and as the information comes out to think about how dangerous that is. because that is saying that we actually don't think there should be any accountability for this level of corruption of our foreign policy. >> could we just play what if obama or bush did it for a second? [ laughter ] this is my favorite game at a bar that i don't have anything

but water. so what if obama asked merkel to dig up something nasty -- well, i guess the romneys don't do anything weird. but how much money the romneys spent on some european vacation or bush asked the israelis to dig up something nasty. can you imagine? >> lindsey graham would've led a parade of like the brooks brothers ride at the skiff. like that same parade would've led down to the white house and literally dismantled it the next day. fox news would be -- >> so that stipulated that if bush did it or if obama did it, they'd literally pull the gates. i agree with you. what is going on? >> what is going on is a complete betrayal of any center. what is the republican -- i mean, look, the republican party for decades has been in its foreign policy about standing up to russia, right? and here this entire story is about trying to protect the president of the united states benefitting from massive corruption with russia, bullying a country that has been invaded

by russia. so what is this really about? it's about watching the entire political party choose loyalty fielty, servitude to donald trump. >> to russia through donald trump. >> rather than doing what you would expect republicans to do or any public servants to do which is to put the interest of the country first. but even based on their own ideological disposition, you would expect them to want to stand up for these kinds of officials. all these officials were people who wanted to strengthen the ukraine relationship, who wanted to get badly needed military assistance to ukraine. you want to talk about what if obama? they used to kill us for not giving enough military assistance. >> i might've been part of that. let me just say i remember it was a terrible day on the mccain campaign because they wanted him to talk about the economy, and he went to, i don't know, a battleground state with lindsey graham and joe leiebermann. he said today we are all georgians and he didn't mean the state. he meant the country. and they said what the h-mmm is

he doing? i said he's got russia on his mind. what has happened to the republican party? >> these are the moments where my anger is somewhat palpable because you've just got to be honest. these are, in today's republican party, spineless politicians rotten to the core without virtue, without any level of human integrity devoid of self-respect, self-reflection, without courage, and without the moral compass to recognize their own malevolence. and one day maybe they will have the recognition of how they failed the country and themselves in this moment. but that would be giving them credit that somewhere down deep they have the goodness to recognize how to reconcile their own failings with what is right and just in american politics. and frankly what is right and wrong in the eyes of adults and children alike. and there's no other example. and why no argument will ever

work for republicans, and i agree they inevitably will make the case this is not impeachable. the problem is it requires every single republican to align with donald trump and say that only donald trump speaks the truth, that lieutenant colonel vindman, a man of honor and purple heart recipient does not speak the truth. ambassador mckinley, somebody who's referred to as the dean of the foreign service core, does not speak the truth. ambassador yovanovitch, somebody who dedicated her life to promoting freedom and u.s. ideals on the world stage does not speak the truth. only donald trump does. and there is no greater example of selling your soul to a charlottan than what republicans are doing right now in the house and the senate. and their legacies are on the line just as much as donald trump's. we know the character of donald trump. we know the failings of donald trump watching play out in this impeachment proceeding is the failings of a republican party and every single member that

goes along with this. >> amen. after the break, how low will he go to hide his taxes, that is? we'll bring you the big legal development on the president and his tax return and the strategy to hide it from public view.

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if today's impeachment news doesn't get him down, there was a major blow for donald trump today. a federal appeals court in manhattan ruled that his tax returns must be turned over to the district attorney. it's all part of that hush-money case, the one involving payments to porn star stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. and experts agree that it's almost certainly headed to the supreme court. today's verdict is a reminder that while the impeachment process is undoubtedly an existential threat to trump's presidency, it's not the only fire in need of a containment strategy. in fact, if democrats decided to just, you know, drop the whole impeachment inquiry tomorrow,

trump would still be buried under a mountain of ongoing litigation. politico writes it like this. quote, trump could face court rulings that say he is illegally profiting from foreign governments, that he must hand over his tax returns and that lawmakers should see more of robert mueller's russia probe evidence. he may even get hit with supreme court decisions that rebuff his administration's bold claims of presidential immunity from prosecution and congressional investigations. ron, harry, and the table are back. ron, let me start with you. this idea that there is so much. you know, we're here every day, we have an hour to sift through the papers. this seems to be where the democrats have historically been tripped up at just the volume of corruption. what do you think about this ruling on taxes and what, if anything, should democrats do with it? >> well, look, we are going to face a test. we talked in the last segment about trump corrupting our foreign policy and corrupting, trying to corrupt the foreign service. now we are going to see if trump has corrupted the federal

judiciary. and this is a program for president trump. he's got an event at the white house this week to celebrate his record-setting pace of filling federal judgeships. now two of those people who he put on the supreme court are going to have to rule today whether or not donald trump's going to have to turn over his tax returns. so a great american institution, the independents of our judiciary is on the line here. the supreme court said no to president nixon. it said no to president clinton, it forced him to give testimony in the paula jones case. now we are going to see if the supreme court will stand up to donald trump. that is the test that's coming. it also, karine, not that the democrats need any advice from me or any more motivation for 2020. but it would seem that if the democrats can mount sort of a parallel efforts around their courts, this might be an example. >> i think the question always to me is what is he hiding and

why. what is so scandalous in his tax returns? what is so dangerous that he doesn't want the american public to see, and this is like behooves democrats to continue to pound and get them. because it may answer some national security questions, right? it may answer some conflicts of interest questions that we just don't know. it really, to me, it ties back in to this whole ukraine and the foreign policy, how broken it is under donald trump. i think -- i'm wondering if there's a connection there. because he is going over and beyond to protect his taxes. >> you know, it also, harry litman, ties back to another easy to understand trump scandal, had sex with a porn star, wrote checks to keep her quiet in the oval office, full stop. >> full stop. that's of course where vance is going. look, and i agree with ron. it's really going to be a test of where the supreme court is. but i think the test will come earlier. i know everyone thinks it's going to the supreme court.

it is a really simple case. he was dead wrong, and he had to know he was going to lose when at oral argument the judge asked his lawyer, so you mean if he shoots somebody on fifth avenue, nobody can do anything? that's correct, your honor. so, if the decision, which was no straightforward even is accepted for supreme court review, that's an indication that four members, probably five, are ready to reverse it. and that to me would already be really foreboding. my best guess, actually, against the grain here is that they won't take the case. >> it is an interesting reminder of scandals passed. we live dog years. he was an unindicted co-conspirator, so said the southern district new york in december of 2018. we're about three or four scandals later. but none of these chapters serve him politically. >> no. and any one of these could create additional momentum for what democrats are doing on the hill. >> and swing public support to the point where you bring

around -- >> and, look, if the courts rule that kupperman has to testify, this is going to be a watershed case that may say then bolton has to testify, eisenberg, all these others. then if you're saying no, you're obstructing not just the congress, but you are disobeying the courts. this week in a nutshell is a perfect example of why many people are concerned the president is trying to position himself above the law. here's why. he is saying to the united states congress i have constitutional immunity, i don't have to talk to you. and he is saying to the courts i don't have to do what you tell me to either. this is the danger of the executive authority that donald trump and bill barr are trying to put out there that the president doesn't have to answer to the congress or the judiciary. that is exactly what the founders embedded in our constitution. that is why we broke from a crown because we wanted a president, a chief executive, to be held accountable both by the congress and the judiciary. donald trump is saying no i'm not.

and that's the danger we are watching play out in realtime. >> i am very aware of falsehope, mostly as the mother of a 7-year-old, we don't have false expectations of new legos after homework is done. but is it a false hope to think that we'll ever see the taxes that karine said could tell us a lot about where his money comes from? >> no. i think it's a real hope if vance gets it which i think he will. that doesn't mean it gets revealed right away. but you have to imagine that it will come out. i think, you know, everything that david says is right. and i just want to make one point about bill barr and the justice department. in past investigations, there's been another cop on the beat to really come in if people are acting illegally, like arguely eisenberg here. but here they have impunity. the only thing they have is congress or the courts. there is no jaworski or cox or star or mueller. and that's what's really emboldened them. but on your point, i think the

day will come. and by the way, i think trump will be a repeat litigant and under siege in the courts for the rest of his life, not simply his presidency. >> i think you are right. i think heard the same thing from some of his closest friends and allies. after the break, the origins of donald trump's impeachment go way, way, way back. what we're learning about donald trump, paul manafort, and his ukraine obsession from documents newly unveiled in a freedom of information lawsuit against robert mueller's super deper secret investigation. that story next. investigation that story next. tastes great! high protein. low sugar. so good! high protein. low sugar. mmmm, birthday cake! pure protein. the best combination for every fitness routine.

(mom vo) it's easy to shrink into your own little world. especially these days. (dad) i think it's here. (mom vo) especially at this age. (big sis) where are we going? (mom vo) it's a big, beautiful world out there. (little sis) whoa... (big sis) wow. see that? (mom vo) sometimes you just need a little help seeing it. (vo) the three-row subaru ascent. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. "washington post" out with new reporting that details donald trump's deep suspicion and hatred. it's hard to read ukraine beginning its piece with an account from a meeting just a few months ago. quote, three of president trump's top advisers met with him in the oval office in may determined to convince him that

the new ukrainian leader was an ally deserving of u.s. support. they had barely begun their pitch when trump unloaded on them according to current former and u.s. officials familiar with the meeting. in trump's mind, the official said, ukraine's entire leadership had colluded with the democrats to undermine his 2016 presidential campaign. on that front the "new york times" him? he's in jail without hair dye. quote, manafort spread a conspiracy theory that ukraine, not russia, hacked the democratic national committee as early as five months before the 2016 election. that's according to newly released documents from the supercounsel's investigation. this revelation now connecting the dots between donald trump's toxic views of an american ally like ukraine and his obsession

from clearing russia from meddling in the 2016 election. some mueller explored at length. these documents which we have because of a freedom of information lawsuit filed i think by buzz feed are amazing. and the fact that they connect back to the ukraine obsession and i remember there's some reporting from four or five weeks back that they found donald trump's mind to have been poisoned about ukraine. well, it was poisoned by hisddn agencies agreed happened on ukraine. it's crazy. if you really engage the conspiracy theory that actually the ukrainians were posing as russians to meddle in the election. and oh by the way, nicolle, as someone in the obama white house, if the whole conspiracy was to get all this information and release none of it before the election and then have trump win, i mean, none of this stuff makes any sense. it -- and i think you have to go back to the origins here, too, which are paul manafort, you know, he worked for victor, who

is literally a russian puppet, you know, president of ukraine until 2014. and that house of cards collapsed when the ukrainian people stood up bravely and protested against a corrupt government. and that put at risk the paydays for people like manafort who benefitted from russian money flowing and sloshing around ukrainian politics, right? and -- and the irony of this whole thing, as you know, the president of ukraine, when we were in office, thought his best friends were the republicans on the hill. you know? the president until the lost election would go to john mccain and lindsey graham and the republicans on the hill and say we want obama to be doing more here. so what you are seeing is the bizarre construction of a totally absurd conspiracy theory. you're seeing this corruption that has origin and the russian money making its way to people like paul manafort for years. and you're seeing this total flip in the republican party, again now betraying ukraine and

backing the kind of putin/trump line on everything. >> ron, what you're also seeing is the inner workings of the mueller probe and as a former communicator, i just i'll never stop wondering what might have been if there had been a communicator embedded telling this story. i mean, these are delusions about russia's role that -- that -- that have really polluted all -- you have to say all foreign policy if you look at everything that's happening in syria and everywhere. how -- how -- who and how do we undo the entire reorientation around u.s./russian relations? >> yeah. you know, i think, you know, i've been on the show before. not a fan of the mueller probe. i thought he under delivered and this is kind of another example of that. where he didn't really communicate strongly or clearly enough about what went on here. you know what's going on here really is donald trump and steve bannon and their allies in some kind of global white supremacy alliance with a bunch of forces that they line up with around the world. and it's totally warping u.s.

foreign policy in the middle east, in europe, obviously in russia and ukraine. and it's putting this bizarre personal corruption, authoritari authoritarian -- it is taking us off in the wrong direction with the wrong allies headed towards the wrong things. and these revelations that we're just starting to get from the mueller probe are really making this plainer than ever. >> we are going to sneak in our break. but don't go anywhere because when we come back, a woman who threw her body in between a protestor and a candidate for president. we'll be right back. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz xr, a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. it can reduce pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function.

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we're back. we're all gushing over our friend karine. one of the best things about having friends and reporters on this table is having you at it and one of my favorite karine moments, you throwing your body in front of senator kamala harris. you, your tiny little thing throwing yourself in front of her. we talked about the time. but this book, i remember asking the time where did that come from? this book goes a long way toward answering that. >> yeah. this book really tells my story about what i was able to overcome, my childhood, and just growing up in an immigrant household being immigrant myself. and what -- what was instilled in me at a very, very young age. you know, we spent this -- we spent the hour talking about corruption, donald trump's corruption, we talk about his criminality. there's something else, too, that we don't talk about as often because there's so much corruption and criminality is the division that he sows. that hatred, that fear mongering that many of us, if you are black or a person of color, an immigrant, a gay person, you

know, a person of faith, you know, the jewish faith, for example, or the muslim faith, you are walking around fearful. there is a target onnure bac yo. i think that was a lot of what we saw there. the fear i have. i was sitting next to a black woman running for president and this guy we don't know comes on stage. so i think that's also -- >> no but you made me nervous when you jumped in front of him. you're also a mama, though. >> yeah. that's one of the reasons i wrote the book. i have a 5-year-old, as you know, you've met her. and i want her to know when she's old enough to understand history and what's going on in this country, in this moment, that she knew that her mama stood up and said, no, i'm going to fight and used my voice. and that's so important to me. i want her to know that. and that's one of the reasons i wrote the book. to know my history. to know what i went through. and to know how i fought in this time, in this moment. >> making me cry. the book is "moving forward." it's chicken soup for every single human being's soul.

david jolly's over here selling books, too. >> i just bought my copy. >> it's got a best-seller icon next to it so we'll add that, too. it's a best-seller. so go get it if you don't have it yet. my thanks to everyone who was here for the hour. karine, ben, david, ron. most of all, to you for watching. that does it for our hour. "mtp daily" with the fabulous katy tur in for chuck starts now. welcome to monday. it's "meet the press daily." good evening. i'm katy tur into new york in for chuck todd. the house's impeachment inquiry is accelerating as attempts to defend the president seem to be growing more extreme. after weeks of denying a quid pro quo with ukraine, president trump and some senate republicans are now trying to justify one. perhaps, a sign of just how much