you too can do that by going to signup.axios.com. >> that does it for us on this tuesday morning. i'm yasmin alongside ayman. "morning joe" starts right now. he buys and sells politicians of all stripes. he's already -- >> dr. paul. >> he's already hedging his bet on the clintons. if he doesn't run as republican, maybe he supports clinton or runs as an independent, but i'd say he's already hedging his bets because he's used to buying politicians. >> well i've given you plenty of money. >> well, the rand paul of 2015 would likely not recognize the rand paul of last night's trump rally in connecticut. big difference. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 6th. along with willie and me we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, national affairs analyst for nbc news and name john heilman. and the executive producer of

show time's the circus, former aide to the white house elise jordan. and and jonathan lemire. ha was that rand paul? i didn't recognize him? >> you could add him to the others that railed against trump in '15 and '16 and now are rallying for him in 2019. you were there, rand paul walked up to the line of outing the whistle-blower, didn't say his name but gave some context and details that we won't give this morning so that people could basically decipher who he is. >> that's right. this is the push now we are seeing from the white house and the president's allies, includesing a somewh including an unlikely one in rand paul. the president has focused on the whistle-blower believing they are a member of the deep state,

ties to the previous administrations, and has been looking to get him. ignoring the fact that everything the whistle-blower highlighted in his initial complaint has been corroborated 'the there hasn't been anything, to my knowledge, that the whistle-blower has alleged that has proven to be inaccurate. based on witness testimony in capitol hill, and of course the memo/pseudotranscript that the white house put out of the president's call with the ukrainian leader. but trump, especially in the last week or so as this impeachment inquiry shifts into a new phase, they have the vote, this is happening, the steady stream of testimony remains damaging, has been calling for the whistle-blower to be unveiled claiming that he's being protected by democrats and the media. there are federal protections for whistle-blowers for that very reason, so people can come forward and feel like they can flag things that they see without fear of punishment or retribution or perhaps harm to their pirnl safetersonal safety

rand paul went right up to the line and called for the whistle-blower to be identified and subpoena which was the highlight from this rally that the president was holding. he very much linked his fate with the impeachment inquiry with the republican governor candidate in connecticut sucking th suggesting this is a win the americans deed and they don't want to back the hears that's hurting his president. >> i this is one more time where they're going off the source of the information and not the information itself. they did the same with bill taylor and his testimony, the same with lieutenant colonel vindman and now with the whistle-blower. let's not talk about what he said, which has been supported by testimony, let's talk about who he or she is. >> there's so many things wrong with that, revealing a whistle-blower and bullying and threatening a whistle-blower. we could leave that there, put that aside and point out that the whistle-blower is actually mute at that point in terms of

everything that's come out in the open. let's have a first look at the closed-door testimony in the impeachment probe. among the many revelations, ousted u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch told lawmakers she felt threatened by president trump taf was revea d president trump that it was revealed that he told the president of ukraine she would, quote, go through things. she was asked in the deposition, what did you understand that to mean? she replied, i didn't know what it meant. i was very concerned. i still am. did you feel threatened? yes, she replied. there were also concerns for the former ambassador's safety of when asked if rudy giuliani came up in her conversations with ukrainian officials. she highlighted a february conversation saying a senior ukrainian official was, quote, very concerned and told me i really needed to watch my back.

when asked to explain had he mentioned giuliani, his now indicted associates lev parnas and igor fruman and ex ukrainian prosecutor saying they were quote, interested in having a different ambassador at the post. there's also this. yovanovitch testified that she asked for advice on how to handle attacks from sean hannity and don junior. you need to tweet out there that you support the president and all these are lies and everything else. she said it was, quote, advice i did not see how i could implement in my role as an ambassador and as a foreign service officer. there was also another reference to sean hannity, his attacks apparently went from fox news prime time to the top of the state department. yovanovitch said she was told the secretary or someone around him would call hannity to see if

he had proof of the allegations against her and if not to stop it, hannity claims the call never happened. and here's what the president said about the former ambassador when questioned by nbc's kristen welker. >> was marie yovanovitch the target of a smear campaign by -- >> i really don't know her. >> like she testified she was? >> if you look at the transcripts, the president of ukraine was not a fach hen of h either. he did not exactly say glowing things. i'm sure she's a very fine woman, i just don't know much about her. >> president trump told the president of ukraine in that july 25th call, quote, the former ambassador from the united states, the woman, was bad news. and the people she was dealing with in the ukraine were bad news. so i just want to let you know that. elise, i mean, first of all, let's just back up to the beginning here. it feels like this ambassador

was having a brorth wther who s as an ambassador, a father who worked in foreign policy, this is chilling. these people put their lives out there, upend their lives to represent the united states of america. to say that she's going to go through some things, i don't know how to read that any other way than he's going to shake her down as well, share her, threaten her, do something to make her life miserable. >> you have the president of the united states literally bullying an american diplomat posted abroad in a hardship post. and this really puts into harsh focus the crisis that's happening right now at the state department. you've got mike pompeo out campaigning in kansas. there's going to be a congressional investigation and why he keeps going to kansas and not going abroad, and you have all of these crises happening not just in ukraine, but around the world. and what is happening with the state department? who is running the state department? who is protecting the state

department employees who have vowed and have taken an oath to their country? it's certainly not mike pompeo right now. >> and, you know, it's hard to believe, but there might be a larger story than the threats to the ambassador, ambassador yovanovitch. it would be the slow destruction of the state department as evidence in the release of these transcripts yesterday. ambassador yovanovitch gets a phone call at 1:00 a.m. ukrainian time from the desk -- state department desk in washington. a woman telling her that she had to catch the next plane home for her security. >> what in the world? >> she could not decipher what her security meant. she tried to elicit a response, she never got one. you also had michael mckinley, 37 years in foreign service indicating that he asked secretary pompeo three times to stand up for state department personnel. secretary pompeo indicates, no, he never talked to me. john heilman, the phrase goes around and around and around,

elections have consequences. we're seeing this play out in realtime now with the destruction of a single department, the state department, that is key to the united states role in the world. >> it's been, mike, i think to one of many insurantitutions of federal government where bannon was in the deconstruction of the administrative state, they were serious. bannon is long gone and they continue to do it. to mika's point and everybody's point, you listen to what the president is saying there. we have heard president trump use this language, attack the deep state, attack the institutions of government. but the way in which he singles out this particular ambassador to another head of state, he sounds like not like the president of the united states, not like an even partisan president of the united states, he sounds like a crime boss. >> yeah. >> he sounds like someone who is in a bourn movie if you had the head of the international crime

syndicate calling the president of a second world country and is making direct threats upon one of the united states representatives there, someone who he of course -- the person works for him, right? you imagine you take this to the human scale. you imagine what this woman was going through. she was sitting there in ukraine listen together president of her united states hearing that that president, person she's supposed to work for, she's worked for other presidents before, hearing that he's talking about her as if her life was in jeopardy. and it's so far beyond -- i mean, there are moments -- there's so much that's horrific about the way donald trump talks about the government that's there to serve all of us, that's there to help the world and they're there to serve him. but there are moments like this that crystallize just the extent to which the president is behaving. >> sworn testimony. >> not just a bad president and a partisan president and not just a narcissist, but like a criminal in the white house. >> and this is not the first person who has testified to this framework, to this narrative about the ukraine scandal under

oath. and the president thinks the whistle-blower is his problem? that's a distraction he's putting out there for fox news. that's a distraction he's putting out there to try to make that the focus of the story. there are way too many facts. i think it's fair to believe the facts as they add up might prevail, will. >> i. >> and then she's contacted by the president of the eu and said there's a way out of this, if you write a nice flattering tweet to president trump. to her great credit, she refused to it. >> imagine this part of it. she is saying state media is out to get you. that's what that is. that's -- you know, that's what happened with tas in the soviet union in 1974. it's like state media turned against you. the only way to get them to back off is to offer a sacrifice to the gods. all of the fox news stuff, it's so troubling especially when we start with the whistle-blower

discussion. you heard sean hannity last night on fox news threatening also to reveal the whistle-blower's name. we are headed to -- we're already in a dangerous place. but with respect to the whistle-blower, kind of the nexus between the white house and fox news on the foreign stage, on the international stage like this, it's beyond mind blowing. >> and remember a time when everyone was really concerned about benghazi and did the state department, did secretary hillary clinton, did the obama administration do enough to protect ambassador stevens and the other diplomats serving at that hardship post some and we literally had the president of the united states targeting an ambassador. you have the threat coming in from the desk at the state department, diplomatic security, what are they just being left out there, you know, protecting an ambassador and left out high and dry. this is just -- it is, it's criminal. >> but can you imagine, get on the plane. >> why do you need to get on the plane? >> you need to get on the next

plane home, your safety depends on it. >> so we talk about michael mckinley. let's get into some of his testimony. the congressional committees released a deposition of former ambassador michael mckinley. the transcript he recently resigned as senior adviser to secretary of state mike pompeo. on his decision to tep down, he told impeachment investigators, quote, in this context frankly to see the emerging information on the engage menment of our missions to procure negative political information for domestic purposes combined with the failure i saw in the building to provide support for our professional cadre in a particularly trying time, i think the combination was a pretty good reason to decide enough. that i no longer had a useful role to play. mckinly said pompeo's decision not to issue a statement in support of former u.s. ambassador yovanovitch following a release of the transcript of the president's july 25th phone call of the president of ukraine contributed to mckinley's resignation. mckinley said he raised the

issue with pompeo during three separate conversations but got no response. that directly contradicts what pompeo said last month that mckinley had never raised any concerns. >> mike mckinley served me well for a year and a half. i chose him, i had people tell me he was a great foreign service officer. in fact, he served american wonderfully for 37 years. he had, in fact, had the office that was just behind mine, had a door that he could walk in any time and say whatever he wanted. you know, from the time that ambassador yovanovitch departed ukrai ukraine until the time that he came to tell me that was departing i never hard h departing i never heard him say a single thing. not one, george, did mckinley say something to me during that time period. >> and mckinley testifies under oath that he went to pompeo three times and discussed that. mckinley also testified that he spoke to state department

official george kent who fell the state department was using bullying tactics to try to prevent him from cooperating with congress. kent told mckinley he thought a state department lawyer was trying to shut him up which led doent wri kent to write a memo over bullying and inaccuracies by pompeo last month accusing congress of what ration state department employees. they say he shared kent's memo but received no answers. >> my goodness. >> i want to read one more quote from ambassador mckinley in the transcript that came out yesterday. quote, in 37 years in the foreign service and different parts of the globe and working on many controversial issues, working ten years back in washington, i had never seen that. and he's talking about the idea of using foreign service officers in a shadow foreign policy to dig up dirt for the president of the united states on a domestic political opponent. pretty cut and dried and clear

from his testimony. >> no question. and very damaging testimony. there is a using government resources and, of course are the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani to run a shadow foreign policy is another example of another norm that has been shattered by this president and one with a hollowed out state department. but it has real world consequences. ambassador taylor testified a few wooks ago aeeks ago and we about his opening statement about how he would look across a bridge in ukraine and believe that real lives were in jeopardy because the united states was not going to provide military aid to ukraine unless it went along with the president's push to investigate a political foe, in this case joe biden and his family. and also returning to the whistle-blower thing. it's recommend nreminiscent of the mueller investigation where they try to undermine the career civil servants, the deep state

to rush crucrush the entire thi they're trying to sell the american public that you can't trust the people running this investigation so therefore you shouldn't trust the facts that they find. that's white president is search fog are any sort of defense here and ummicoming up empty in onest can rebut the facts has fixated on this whistle-blower who's identity has been floated out there already in conservative media outlets. the president himself, though it would be illegal, may tweet out this identity before too long. and they're trying to have it as a rallying cry. as much as they're stuck with the idea now that, yes, he committed a quid pro quo, but a quid pro quo, maybe that's not bad, these the new talking point for republican senators, they're going after the whistle-blower. last night that the rally there were a few dozen people sitting behind the stage who had new campaign t-shirts that said read the transcript, because they believe the transcript exonerates the president, the transcript of his call with the ukrainian leader even though of course it's that very transcript that has launched this probe and

seems to very much indicate plain as day there was a quid pro quo. >> it's also not a transcript, that's the other thing to point out as it says on page one of the nontranscript, it's not a transcript. mike, in order to believe the president's case here that he did nothing wrong, you have to believe that bob mueller and bill tailor and marie yovanovitch and lieutenant colonel vindman and a lot of people who served this country for a long time under republicans and democrats are all lying, that they put their hand up, they sat down for a deposition, and made up stories, perhaps, i don't know, getting together and thinking of what the story could be. it's all out here now. it's all out in front of us. >> yeah. >> so you -- it defies credibility that all of these people got together to make up a lie to take down a president. >> unless you believe that the president of the united states is combating the deep state and they're all elements of the deep state. but the transcripts that were released yesterday add a new version do this tale that we're

all living through. and the version is, if yesterday's leads was the "a" lead, mckinley's testimony being released and ambassador yovanovitch's testimony being released, if that's the "a" lead, the off lead of this story is mike pompeo. >> absolutely. >> yes. >> and what he's doing. >> we need to keep going back to that. >> and you can start with mike pompeo's service as director of the central intelligence agency when he states adamantly that russia tried to influence the election and now that's gone. now it's the ukraine that's involved. in addition to his testimony now that it's the ukraine that's involved, not russia, it's what he's doing on a daily basis to the state department. >> it is incredible. >> that's the off lead. that's a big story. >> it is. that is coming out at some point. there's too many situations where he has been asked questions, he has refused to answer them, he has bumbled through them and stuttered through them and the few times that he does open his mouth, it appears to be that he is lying.

and that will come out. still ahead on "morning joe," there's brand-new poll numbers out this morning under the following headline, quote, one year from election, trump trails five potential democratic presidential nominees by wide margins. we'll dig into what exactly that means next on "morning joe." t t means next on "morning joe." this piece is talking to me. yeah? so what do you see? i see an unbelievable opportunity. i see best-in-class platforms and education. i see award-winning service, and a trade desk full of experts, available to answer your toughest questions. and i see it with zero commissions on online trades. i like what you're seeing. it's beautiful, isn't it? yeah. td ameritrade now offers zero commissions on online trades. ♪

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all right. a new "washington post" abc news poll out this morning shows several democratic 2020 contenders leading president trump by wide margins in potential head-to-head matchups. former vice president joe biden has a 17-point advantage over the president. 56 to 39%.

senator elizabeth warren leads trump by 15 points, 55 to 40. senator bernie sanders also has a double-digit lead, 55 president trump's 41%. mayor pete buttigieg has an 11-point advantage, 52-41. and senator kamala harris has the narrowest lead with nine points, 51% to trump's 42%. let's bring in politics and journalism professor, and an maple political contributor jason johnson. jason, what do you think of those poll numbers? what stands out? >> it stands out the huge margins this early, mika. i don't -- i don't think anyone should be comfortable with these. this is -- this is in political science what we call an outlier. it falls along with what we've seen, right in the top four or five candidates probably do lead trump and they probably do lead the president in a lot of swing states. but i don't think anyone in our current political environment is

going to beat the incumbent president by ten, 12 points. i don't think that's the case. one thing i've said all along that's been consistent the last four or five elections. the most honest numbers, the real numbers that could happen in 2020 don't happen until after thanksgiving. they happen when everybody gets home and people have a chance to talk to their aunts and uncles who come in from michigan and florida. when you have a chance to talk to the high school and college seniors and say does it look like you've got good job prospects when you graduate in the spring? once americans get together in the holiday season and start talking about america, i find those polls to be more reliable. i wouldn't be thrilled if i were a democrat this is an outlier, and republicans know they have a chance to make up these numbers. >> there's the risk for democrats to be lulled into a false sense of security when they see a national poll like that. of course it's not a national referendum. more interesting was the six battleground states that democrats need to flip back and those are air tight. and in fact donald trump is winning some of those states

against elizabeth warren and even against biden within the margin of error in michigan, pennsylvania, wisconsin, florida, arizona, and president trump is actually up within the margin of air your of north carolina. that's where the election is decided, not in a national poll. i think that opened a lot of democrats eyes yesterday who thought oh, yeah, we're going to beat this guy. it could still go either way in any of those states. >> truly to jason's point and to your point, there literally is almost nothing more meaningless than head-to-head polls that are national more than a year out from the election. we don't know who the democratic nominee is, it's a year away. a democrat that looks at those polls and gets excited is out of their minds. we've seen two troubling things and they're in parallel on the same point. one is the battleground state polls on the presidential race. the other is the fact that we've now learned the support for impeachment is not what we thought it was, which is to say the public has moved in favor of

an impeachment inquiry and it's moved to a greater degree -- a lesser degree than that but a greater dpr greater degree than it was in favor of getting rid of the president. but it turns out the battleground states, the purple states, the support for impeachment is smaller too. i think it's a terrible mistake for democrats to look at these national numbers and get overconfident. the reality is if you go out to states like these ones that are represented in these battlegrounds, i was in iowa all week last week, a state that president obama won in 2008 and 12, donald trump won in 2016 and you talk to people out there, they are concerned about the nature of the democratic field. they're not panicked, but they're not oh, we're going to take the state back, it's a slam dunk. >> what's the nature that is concerning? >> they're concerned about, i would say, having, again, spent a week talking to elected democrats, people who have won statewide and other people who are in the process. they're concerned the democratic field right now, the people who are leading it, many of them, elizabeth warren, bernie

sanders, anybody who has embraced medicare for all, that they think that is a toxic political position in a state like iowa. they worry about -- they look at that -- they look really at the top four right now and see a clear top four of whom one is a vice president who is showing weakness financially and otherwise and then elizabeth warren and bernie sanders are too far to the left from their point of view and pete buttigieg, someone who is a mayor of a city of less than 100,000 people and is obviously not qualified to be president of the united states. so there's concern. >> right. >> among hard core democrats in a place like iowa, again, president obama won that state in 2008, 2012. president trump won it not in a tight race, won it comfortably in 2020. but it should be a state the democrats are competitive in and yet i would say collectively iowa democrats are looking at the field and saying -- they're not panicked but they are concerned. >> well, looking at that concern, elise, you can take it to jason, but it's two

candidates, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren at the top tier who have plans that seem fantastic c fantastical going against trump who sends out fantastical lies. not a good match up because they have synergies in ways that make americans uncomfortable or cancel each other out. and then can joe biden do it? i think still a question but i see less so. i see him performing well out there, no? >> well, and the question with the two candidates you cited with medicare for all is how simple does it become for donald trump to just campaign against socialism? hey, they're bringing socialism. >> or something that's not going to get passed. >> so socialism becomes his new wall. i think i would ask jason if he feels that the worries about impeachment becoming the new rallying cry for republicans who aren't that enthusiastic, much in the same way that the justice

kavanaugh hearings really galvanized and brought republicans home and how much is that a risk for democrats this campaign cycle? >> i don't think it's that much of a worry a year out. it don't see many americans right now -- i spent a lot of the week talking to people in virginia, like legislative elections. things that happen a year, year and a half ago that's not affecting how people are voting for their local congress person, it's not something that's really necessarily on their minds right now. i don't think impeachment ends up being like an albatross or a millstone around the neck of democrats who actually vote for it. but i do think this, this is important about this top four field and how they play out. i've always said this. people underestimate how good joe biden is at retail politics. he may stumble on the stage, he may seem frustrating to those of us sort of in the chattering class here. but you can go out and talk to people in the midwest, talk to people in carolina, and georgia,

and they still find him charming and interesting and compelling. so what you really have at the top of the field is you have a vice president who makes mistake publicly, but privately seems to campaign well. you have two far left candidates that quite frankly i don't think either one of them has a chance of winning the nomination. and then you have mayor pete who is basically the mayor of whoville who a lot of people like as a person, would probably vote for as a governor but they don't think he's old enough or experienced enough to be president. the field is tight by numbers, but if you talk to people who they think can actually win this and go against trump, it's probably going to be joe biden. >> you know, jason is absolutely right on that. the resilience of the biden campaign, you don't have to go to virginia or maryland, go to new hampshire, one of the first primaries. you walk around and despite what the "new york times" says on the front page about joe can't speak english, go to new hampshire, go to a shopping mall up there, people like him, they want to like him. he has a tremendous resilience in his support. >> why isn't elizabeth warren doing better in new hampshire

when she has run millions of dollars of advertising over the years in that media market? >> because the biden campaign doesn't know how to spend the little money they have on media. >> wow. coming up, president trump has been dealt a blow in the fight over his tax returns. cot supreme court help keep his finances private? that's ahead on "morning joe." e that's ahead on "morning joe." i am the twisting thundercloud. power... in its most raw form. speed in its most natural. i am royalty of racing,

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36 past the hour. a federal appeals court ruled yesterday that president trump must turn over his personal and corporate tax returns to the manhattan district attorney cyrus vance who subpoenaed the documents from his accounting firm in early september. vance is seeking to obtain eight years of the president's tax documents as part of an investigation into the preelection payoffs to karen mcdougal and stormy daniels who claim to have had affairs with trump. allegations he has denied. the president's lawyer, jay sekulow said he would now appeal the case to the supreme court.

now, akoiccording to nbc news, t supreme court rulings have upheld subpoenas directed towards president. but in this case they're seeking documents from trump's accountants and the trump organization, not directly from the president himself. this time the supreme court may decline to hear the president's appeal which would leave the appeals court ruling intact and require the tax returns to be turned over. with us now, state attorney for palm beach county, dave ehrenberg. donny deutsch joins the table as well. donny visited michael cohen yesterday in prison. we'll talk to him about that. and senior legal affairs contributor to -- for "politico," who is covering the trial of roger stone, remember him, which starts today. we'll get to that in a moment. dave, what are the possibilities these tax returns see the light of day? is this maybe a loophole or a different route that lawyers

have discovered? >> i think the map hat tan da is going to win in the end. last week i likened the trump legal team to the washington generals. remember the basketball team that lost to the globetrotters every night? well, the losing streak continues. what you're seeing is that trump's lawyers are making these absurd absolutist arguments that a sitting president can never be investigated criminally for any reason. and the second circuit court of appeals said, no, there's nothing that keeps a state prosecutor from investing a sitting president. but they went on a more narrow ruling to say that because it's a third-party accounting firm here that received these legitimate subpoenas, that they've got to apply. they don't get the same immun immunities that trump claims for him receive. that's why i think it's going to prevail, because the lower court gave the supreme court a way out. they don't have to even rule on this crazy issue of whether the

president gets absolute immunity. they can rule the more narrow issue which would avoid embarrassment for the president and it allows chief justice roberts to maintain his view of the court as a nonpolitical institution unlike the other two branches of government. >> you anticipated my question, which was that the president of the united states sees the supreme court as his backstop in all of this. and in other matters, some of the justices he put on the bench himself. does the decision out of the circuit court of appeals affect the way this looks? can they confidential informant this assigned kick it back to the lower courts and say the decision's been made? or do you see a scenario where the supreme court might overturn this? >> it takes four justices to even hear the case. because of the expedited calendar here, you're going to see that decision by mid-january. it's no guarantee that the court even hears the case. but then it takes a majority to rule for the president. i don't think that's going to happen because the lower court gave the supreme court a gift,

really. they allowed them to say, hey, we're just going to deal with the limited argument of whether a third-party accounting firm has to comply with a legitimate subpoena, not this broader argument over absolute immunity. think that the lower court was smart, that's why they did it. they knew that this is a political hot potato and it goes before a conservative supreme court. we have two justices appointed by the president and so i think it's going to be very unlikely that the supreme court rules trump's way. because also no courtney where in the count court in the country is going to want to elevate the presidency to the status of a king. >> donny deutsch, you saw michael cohen yesterday. what are your takeaways? and there are some ways in which he's still cooperating sort of on the outskirts of all of this. what's his mindset? >> speaking of cooperating, psi

vance and h cy vance and his people have been up there a couple of times. michael hinted on some of his earlier testimony's, and i think the most damning thing that would come up in the taxes is basically inflation and deflation of assets for tax purposes, which would be tax fraud. basically to get a loan you say something's worth a hundred million and for income you say something's worth 2 million. you know, seeing michael is first of all, very sad. you know, what also -- he said one thing yesterday. he said, you know, people squ me why'd you do what you do? and he goes, i don't know. and, to me, the interesting thing is i wonder if years from now mike pompeo, various republican senators are going to be saying the same thing. i'm not saying they're going to end up in jail. but trump's effect on people and getting them to do things. i think years from now a lot of thooems these people a these people are going to look back and the tox sicity is goin

to affect them the way it did michael. he's in jail. and donald trump and everybody else still runs free. his days are it's not hard time, but he's bored, he's lonely, he's frustrated. >> isolated. >> isolated. it is really depressing when you go up there. he reads, he works out, he does some work with the hvac. obviously hopefully they'll be some more time off if the prison reform act fineally goes throug and goes to real life. but we see michael cohen in a little box up there. here are the people affected by trump and he's going to jail for three years. you forget it's a life. obviously he broke the law and he's doing his time, but how it affects his family. i was just really saddened yesterday. but he's hanging in there and doing the best he can, but it sucks. >> is he still involved in -- like to what extent can you say that he's still involved in any ongoing investigations? >> well, it's been reported that cy vance's people have been up there. >> how much of his -- how

involved is he? >> he spent some decent amount of time with them. and i think he will continue to spend time with them. he of course wouldn't tell me what he's talking about. >> is that about trying to get his science reducentence reduce >> i know there's a big quid pro quo out there. there's been no quid pro quo established. obviously in any cooperation i'm sure that's what he's hoping for. but nothing has been promised. cy vance is the last stand, obviously 30 or 40 days after barr came in. >> yeah. >> those open investigations from the trump organization from the southern district suddenly stopped and went away. cy vance is obviously under a different tutelage and it will be interesting to watch. >> you've got paul manafort, michael flynn, there's staggering stories here that it's hard to keep it all straight. josh gerstein, roger stone, remind us where are we with that? >> well, mika, this is sort of a reprieve five months after the mueller investigation shut down all of a sudden we find one of

president trump's top confidant's getting ready to go on trial here in federal court in washington for seven different felonies. and what's interesting about this case is it's really the first one stemming from the mueller probe that goes to the heartland of that investigation. whether paul manafort did pay his taxes, didn't pay his taxes, failed to register as a foreign agent is still at the margins of what mueller was investigating. where this trial of roger stone is about whether he lied about efforts he was making on trump's behalf or the trump campaign's behalf to be in touch with wikileaks and to try to procure release of hillary clinton's emails an democrats emails at the height of the 2016 campaign. so he's not charged with conspiring with wikileaks, but he's charged with lying about issues that, as i say, are really at the core of the mueller investigation. >> josh, there's so much going on in the orbit of president trump and you're good at synthesizing all of this, which

you've got the roger stone trial that you're covering, you've got what's going on with the impeachment inquiry, you've got what's going on in the southern district of new york. how much of this, just for people waking up and watching at home, comes close to touching the president of the united states? or could touch or impact the president of the united states as he approaches an election, a re-election campaign a year from now? is there any chance that he will be mired personally in any of this? >> well, i think he's certainly going to be referred to. jurors are being told that this case has something do with trump. we expect some testimony at least on the roger stone front about a conversation that took place with rick gates and somebody on the phone in the back of a limo with then candidate trump where he was told in advance about the planned release of some of these clinton or democratic emails. so we do expect the president's name to be invoked at the trial, whether it's something that will -- he'll have to pay a political price for, you know,

six months from now or a year from now i think we'll have to wait and skblee. >> what trump has shown us are there aren't any norms. let's assume that the court doesn't hear the case or upholds. is there he athere any other moe for trump? can he have any domain with the accounting firm or it's game over at that point? >> it's going to be game over. but even if the manhattan d.a. gets ahold of trump's tax returns, they're still subject to grand jury secrecy laws unless they're used as evidence in a criminal case. it's possible that even if and when the manhattan da wins that the public may not see these tax returns any time soon. but i can say that this is different than the normal tactic of trump's legal team to delay. this is not going to extent past the 2020 elections. because of an agreement between trump's legal team and the manhattan's da office, they have an expedited calendar.

the manhattan da agreed to it not to enforce the subpoenas until the supreme court rules, but they must rule this term. that means you'll see a decision by mid-january by the supreme court whether to hear the case. you'll then have an oral argument no later than april, and then ultimately a decision by june 2020 which is the expiration of the supreme court's term. so this is the kind of stuff that could, although no guarantee, could come out in the heat of the election. >> wow. >> and following up on that point, and people i talked to in the west wing and people who speak to the president regularly, despite everything else that's going on, is he closely watching the tax returns matter. that's something that's very much still at the forefront of his mind. josh, i have a question for you. willie laid out all the number of things going on. i wanted to add one more thing to your plate. rudy giuliani who is reportedly under investigation but in particular talk to us about h social lev parnas who indicated he will be complying with the

investigation. what does that mean for giuliani and potentially the president? >> it's not good news for giuliani or the president. parnas is making this kind of outreach to capitol hill and saying, look, i'm willing to work with you guys. i have to say, though, it's a little murky to me how we yet from him being interested in cooperating to actually cooperating. for somebody who's currently under indictment like lev parnas is, it's difficult for you to go up to capitol hill and just sort of talk freely about those issues like the dealings with the state department or other officials about trying to oust the ambassador to ukraine, for example. very difficult for him to speak about that on slil whicapitol he facing a criminal indictment. but it's noticeable that one of his attorneys is interested in pursuing that route. there could potentially maybe be an offer of congressional immunity. but i think the shift? strategy is probably more notable than any chance that parnas is going to start singing

soon. if he wants to sing, it's best to sing to the federal prosecutors before he tries to work something out on capitol hill. >> oh my goodness. "politico's" josh gerstein and dave ehrenberg, thank you both. danny, thank you as well. you look at this all, look at what we just talked about in the past six minutes, all these moving parts from his tax returns, michael cohen, lev parnas, roger stone, karen mcdougal, stormy daniels, possible payments that are campaign finance violations and the growing mountain of evidence surrounding the ukraine scandal and you've got this president and his fox news hosts talking about one thing, the whistleblower. and you get a sense that that seems unbelievably silly and deflecting. >> what's unbelievable is the republicans, the republicans that they stand by as men and women and they go home to their families. >> and trash people. >> and they face their children. and their day will come. their dale day wiy will come.

>> we'll continue the conversation. coming up, the washington nationals visited the white house to celebrate their world series win yesterday. president trump embracing the team figuratively and literally. that's ahead on "morning joe." . that's ahead on "morning joe." i'm your curious cat, and you know what they say about curiosity. it'll ruin your house. so get allstate and be better protected from mayhem,

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♪ gathering of angels, ♪ they sang to me this song of hope ♪ ♪ this is what they said ♪ they said come sale away ♪ come sail away ♪ come sail away with me >> that's a good song that just reund ruined it for me. >> did you say that was a good song? >> stix it turns out. >> trust me, i'm stuck in the late '70s.

what is stix, early '80s? >> early '80s, '81, '82. >> can we please see him doing ymca if he's going to be in a sailor cos assume. >> you want to see him doing ymca in a sailor costume? >> i would rather maybe not see any of that. >> if i ever get to that stage? >> i know what do. >> could we just made it stop? >> he survived another week. >> he's not dancing. this must be a -- what is dancing? well, tell me when he dances. okay, i'm not seeing any skill. so, yeah had the. >> there's some shuffle steps there. >> i'm going to rock your world, this may not be about dancing talent. >> really? >> he's got the support of the president of the united states said vote for sean. our brave and loyal sean. anyway. >> it's sad. >> you know what?

that was an attempt at a light distraction, but it's not working. coming up, key testimony from the ousted u.s. ambassador to rescue crane. while she sa ukraine. why she says she's still concerned for her safety after a threat from the president. plus, rand paul calls on the immediate yo to release the identity of the whistle-blower while sean hannity says he knows who it is but won't reveal the name yet. more "morning joe"? just a moment. name yet. more "morning joe" just a moment. just a moment. just a moment. i just a moment. n just a moment. a moment. just a moment. just a moment. just a moment. an official message from medicare.

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that's 866-295-0917, or tdameritrade.com/learn. ♪ you have to go vote. it's so important. you're sending that big message to the rest of the country. it's so important. you've got to get your friends, you've got to vote because if you lose, it sends a really bad message. it just sends a bad -- and they will build it up. here's a story are the . if you win they're going to be like oh hum. if you lose they're going to say trump suffered the greatest loss in history. you can't let that happen to me. >> several voters will head to the polls to cast their votes including in mississippi, connecticut, virginia, new york, indiana, and washington. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 5th.

still with us, with lily and me, msnbc contributor mike barnicle, national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heilman. on thjonathan lemire, and an msc contributor jason johnson. and joining the conversation, professor at princeton university, eddy glaude junior and weekend anchor and contributing editor for the website bus will elisia menendez. she's out with the new book the like ability trap. i love that you attacked this, i can't wait to talk to you about it. congratulations on the book. let's start with the new poll out this morning which shows several democratic 2020

contenders leading president trump by wide margins in potential head-to-head matchups. former vice president joe biden has a 17-point advantage over the president, 56 to 39%. senator elizabeth warren leads trump by 15 points, 55 to 40. senator bernie sanders also has a double-digit lead 55 president trump's 41%. mayor pete has an 11-point advantage, 52-41. and senator kamala harris has the narrowest lead with nine points. 51 to trump's 42%. willie geist, you know this stuff does get into the president's head. he follows polls. he may pretend he doesn't, but he does. >> he knows about the poll this morning. i i'm go paraphrase my friend from last hour, what's more interesting are the head to head battleground polls that we saw in the six states yesterday that

show any democrat who thought this guy's on the run, mae i be impeached, his approval rating is low, that the states that will decide the election, we're talking about the states he won like michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, arizona, florida, are still tight no matter who the candidate is. if the nominee is elizabeth warren, she's trailing in some of those states. that is the poll to be looking at. >> that's definitely the poll to be looking at. it gets to this debate that's happening within the democratic party about whether or not this is a persuasion election or a mobilization election. you talk to a lot of those pundits and they will tell you it has to be both. if you want to win in those states, you have to turn out your obama coalition from 2008 and you have to bring new voters into the fold. so there's a lot of work do and a lot of that is really tactical on the ground stuff to be able to register and turn people out. but there is still a lot of softness there that you might not anticipate. >> the interesting thing, i guess, eddy have that the president's approval rating no

matter who the opponent is right in the same range and always has been. i think in this it's 39 to 42% which lines up with his national approval rating. >> absolutely. when we talk about the mechanics of the politics you're right. trump seems to be right where he is. but it just races the question for me, it's an ethical and moral question. all the thangss we'ings that we and ladder aheard and that we'r talking about, we still have these numbers. what does that say about who we are as americans, right? if someone could actually behave like this in the oval office, can do the things that he's doing, what -- what are we saying about ourselves that the support seems to be fixed at these numbers even in these battleground states? so i understand the details of the politics, we have to pay attention to the horse race. but i'm just wondering what is the state of us? when we look at these numbers and how steady they seem. >> you could ask that same

question to the democrats and sort of why it is still, you know, up in the air in many ways. because at this point the republicans have taken the trump side and not necessarily a side that really parallels very comfortably with the republican party and what it used to stand for. former vice president joe biden remains the front runner of the 2020 primary field in nevada, michigan, and texas, according to three new polesls. the new poll shows him eight points ahead of his competitors in nevada, up four points since march. elizabeth warren stits sits at 22%, up 12. and senator bernie sanders follows with 19%, down four points. biden also leads in michigan, according to a new emerson college poll in that state with 34% of support, down six since march. sanders follows closely behind at 28%, up four points. and warren has 19% of support in

the great lake state, up eight points. meanwhile, in texas biden at 23% leads the 2020 field by five points following three points since september. and the latest university of texas, warn comes in second place with 18% support among texas voters and saernds rounde it out with 12%. let's back up. it seems like a pathway for biden even if he does well in other states, correct? >> you think about where the vice president's campaign is right now. if you go back to something mike said earlier, the biggest asset joe biden has right now is the sense of resilience and likability. you go arounded in the country, there are a lot of democrats that like joe biden. it's a thing he's earned over the course of a long career in politics and it's turned out to carry him a long way in this race, despite the fact that he's made a number of mistakes, he's

this had various debate performances and so on. his biggest problem is financial, and he may be able to be helped by, as we know he has a small and diminishing a. cash on hand. he's got a super pac that's going to try to help him out and do some television advertising for him. but to nevada, the biden campaign is increasingly reconciled to the notion that the vice president may not have a chance to win in either of the first two states, which is iowa and new hampshire. so they're look down the road to more xi verdiverse states. the question is whether, if he performs poorly in those first two states, whether his support will hold up in places like nevada and south carolina. but that is the firewall for joe biden is looking past iowa and new hampshire and looking towards nevada and south carolina. >> mike. >> you know, jason, somebody that eddy glaude said moments

ago struck me as being so dominate out there among the electorate, and it's this. there's a whole group of americans, good people, bad people, colored people, white people, americans, okay who lost so much during the years 2007 to 2010, they lost homes, they lost income, they lost their 401(k)s, many of these families are the same people who risk losing sons and daughters in iraq and afghanistan, but then were forgotten and that's why they're being tapped into by donald trump. if you look at the battleground state balls, it's basically a jump ball. some of us sit here on the east coast or the west society of sayi coast and say how could that be? but you realize it could be because of the people ways just mentioning. >> i think there's a couple things when you dig into those

numbers. number one, joe biden's success vis-a-vis elizabeth warren, some other people with white men without college educations versus african americans without college educations versus women without college educations, we have to be careful when we talk about people being in bubbles. because we're talking about different kinds of people. there's always going to be about 30 to 35% of the american public that has no problem with sort of blatant racism, bigotry and hostility towards other people. those people exist, they've always existed in american and so it's not like donald trump is turning minds. he's not a jedi taking control of people. there are lots of people who just agree with his overall hostile and negative beliefs and they like him because they see him as getting back against the people they don't like. >> the resentment factor. >> yes. and that's always been critical. this is not just about feelings and it's not just about convincing people, it's not just about turnout. it's about practical issues of voter suppression. you look at what's hapg in

georgia where they're about to purge 300 people. the democrats can have the best convincing job in the world. they can run against a terrible president. the economy could go into the gutter sometime next spring. but if the democrats aren't careful about voter suppression, if they aren't making sure that the roles aren't getting purged and that be early voting centers are not being moved one way or another, they will not win. because you have democratic governors in michigan and wisconsin, doesn't mean you'll have a guaranteed open and free access in an election. that's the most important thing to remember regardless of how people may feel morally. >> johnon thnathan lemire, jump today is election day. what might it telis? >> tell us? >> he is linking a trio of governors down south and he was rallying for the republican incumbent there it who is in a close race. he's linking their face the to

his own. he think that will be interpreted to his own political health and standing as he wads in wades into this impeachment inquiry. and when he needs republican support, particularly in the senate, if we were to get to an impeachment trial. but i will certainly say the trump campaign, i talked to some of the officials last night and they were very heartened by the times polling that we've been discussion all morning. they say it lines up with what they're hearing as well, that they know that in the states that matter, they're close. there are people in the trump world, not the president himself, mind you, who understand that he very well may lose the national vote by more this time around, the actual popular vote. but it's going to be determined in those half dozen or so states and they know they need to hang on to a few of them, a couple key states in particular, and they could win again. and they see them being very competitive in these states. they feel it's not a persuasion

race, it's all about turnout. they don't think they'll be able to change minds about donald trump. people have mid whaup they thad about what they think about him. but people who think he's been getting a raw deal from the democrats or people that haven't voted over or in decades and getting them to the polls this time around. they had success in 2016 getting voters who weren't being picked up on the polls, the hidden voters, they got them to turn out. they know they need more this time. but they at least, especially considering their huge financial advantage, feel pretty confident. this is going to be a close election next year. to echo what everyone said. if democrats are overconfident, that's a mistake. >> eddy, let's talk about the people of color. there seems to be shaping up from the biden campaign almost this idea that things may not got way we hope they'll go in iowa. things may not go exactly the way we hoped they'll go in new hampshire. but we've got this firewall

thanks to african-american voters in south carolina. it sounds to some ears that there's a taking for granted of that vote, perhaps, because he served under the first african-american president, mentions president obama all the time. what do you make of that strategy to perhaps sit and wait a little bit in south carolina? >> i think it makes sense in the sense that the numbers suggest that south carolina, in fact, is a firewall for joe biden. >> yeah. >> so -- and i think it's important to understand that on the ground he has folks who are actually surrogates who are speaking to those folks in the communities on the ground. so it makes sense to me. i think coming out of iowa, coming out of new hampshire, if he stumbles, if he doesn't have a second place showing, coming in kind of distant third, there might be some questions. then we need to look at the demographics in south carolina. what is his support among young black folk in south carolina? >> that's different. >> what happens if there's a large turnout in that community? i'll defer to jason, the political scientist on this. but what happens if there's a

large african american turnout and more young people show up and they tend to vote and support warren? yeah, jason, you're the political scientist, tell me. what happens if more young voters show up than typically expected? >> first off that ends up helping bernie sanders and ends up helping senator harris. there's an important thing we have to understand about south carolina being the firewall. we just had the report out of south carolina yesterday that a former sort of adviser for the steyer campaign was trying to steal volunteer information from kamala harris. look, you know just like in high school you don't cheat off the dumb kids, right? you cheat off the smart kids. so the fact that they went after harris, not warren, not buttigieg, not anybody else indicates -- you know, kamala harris is probably a lot stronger in south carolina than people are giving her credit for. so if there's a huge turnout of young people, there's a huge turnout of african-american women, she might end uh not

doing better than people anticipate, but eating away at the black support that joe biden has in south carolina. she'll probably be stronger in nevada than people think. so i really think that the biden campaign realizes at this point their firewalls can be doused. he has got to do better in iowa. he can't just give up iowa and new hampshire, because black folk will change their mind if he does not present himself as being the best chance to get rid of donald trump in 2020. >> okay. jason johnson, thank you very much. alessia menendez, there's a political tie before we drive into the likability trap. we have so many women running in this election for the democratic nomination. do you think likability matters this time around? >> yes. and it bears out in that polling that we saw from the battleground states. they looked at biden's supports.

i think it was about 41% of biden's supporters who don't support elizabeth warren agreed with the statement that women candidates running for president are unlikable. >> ooh. >> that tells you a lot of what you need to know. that there's gender bias baked into our sense of who is worthy of agency and power. what we think of women when they strive for that power, particularly when they run for office. because in as much as we would run for office because they want to be in service of their community, that tends to be the biggest motivator for women getting involved, it's your name at the top of the ballot so it can seem like a power grab. >> tell us about the trap that so many women get stuck in and they really feel the pressure that likability equals success. does it have to be that way? >> so women are socialized across cultures to think about themselves in relation to others, to care about what other thinks about us. i think that can be a good

thing. i'm all for people being sensitives to other people's feelings. what it becomes a problem is when thinking becomes overthink and we again to self-mod late and not be our authentic selves in order to please others in the is particularly challenge for women at work because you are told you're too assertive, too aggressive, too much and you need to tone it down or that you're too nice and you don't take up enough space and oxygen. confusionally, there are women like me who have been given both sets of feedback which tells you how context specific and subjective this feedback is. >> i totally agree with your findings and i actually know your value. i tell women respect first, friendship will follow and you have to guide yourself that way. but it's easier said than done because of all these pressures to be liked. and you find yourself actually giving up your val view. >> value. >> yes. >> when you fall into the trap. >> we've talked about this in

the context of wages and promotions, all of which are important, but there's a price that western facing for internalizing these demands and time that is lost. if i sit down with my supervisor and all the feedback i get is how i use my hands and how i sit in my chair and whether or not i smile enough with everybody in the office, that's time we're not spending about hard skills that might allow me to deliver better results for my company or organization. >> and also if you show that aggressive side in a contained way, if you show that side that commands respect, you show that you can do well on behalf of your company if, you know, especially just like the next guy. >> right. >> so if you follow into the likability trap, you're also showing weakness. >> when i started writing this book, what i wanted to do was right about caring less, because i'm a person who cares a lot and i thought i would be liberated. what i learned talking to other women, is even women who don't give a damn pay a price for being so brazen themselves.

we've been offered these two paths, lean in and do gender correcting performance or let it go. i'm offering a third way, which is we need to reckon with concept of likability when we hear people discussed as being unlikable, we have to ask what that means. they're even sort of subtle things you can do as male allies in this arena which is catalyst has all this great language around is she, you know, is she ind indecisive or deliberate? those two things are important. even something that i would think as being complementary like calling her helpful can reduce her to a helper role. if i tell her she's helpful, you don't know if she got me my coffee or if she produced all the numbers for the q1 report. there's a difference there and that language can make a difference. >> you are literally speaking my language. thank you so much. the new book is the likability trap, how to break free and succeed. and much more at know your

value.com. she'll have lots of advice for you. still ahead, mike pompeo testified that he asked the secretary of state three separate times to voice concerns over the lack of support for an american ambassador. speaking on tv last month, pompeo said it never happened. would he say the same thing under oath? you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. when you shop for your home at wayfair, you get more than free shipping. you get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. you get fast and free shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. that's what you get when you've got wayfair. so shop now!

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xfinity mobile has more coverage to keep you connected to what matters most. that's because it's the only wireless network that automatically connects you to millions of secure wifi hotspots and the best lte everywhere else. switch now and see how you could save up to $400 a year. and get 50% off when you buy any new lg phone. xfinity mobile. click, call or visit a store today. mike mckinley served me well for a year and a half. i chose him, i had people tell me he was a great foreign service officer. and, in fact, he served america wonderfully for 37 years. he had, in fact, had the office that was just behind mine. had a door that he could walk in any time and say whatever he wanted. you know, from the time that ambassador yovanovitch departed ukraine until the time that he came to tell me that he was departing, i never heard him say a single thing about his

concerns with respect to the decisions that was made. >> so you arwere never asked -- >> not once did mckinley say something to me during that time peri period. >> that was the secretary of state mike pompeo saying something very different than what his congressional aide told congress under oath. michael mckinley recently resigned as senior adviser to pompeo. and in the transcript that was released, we learned that mckinley said that pompeo's decision not to issue a statement in support of former u.s. ambassador ukraine marie yovanovitch following the release of the transcript of trump's july 25th phone call with the president of ukraine contributed to his resignation. he said he raised the issue with pompeo during three separate

conversations but received no response. that directly contradicts what pompeo said last month, that mckinley never raised any concerns. if you remember, pompeo is often asked on national television whether or not there were any conversations about what did he know, and he literally doesn't answer. he deflects, he bumbles, he gives no answer. it appears that maybe because there is quite an answer to that question. joining us now, former u.s. senator now an nbc news and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill. and contributing writer for the atlantic magazine and dean of the johns hopkins university school of advanced international studies, elliot cohen is back with us. so, elliot, first of ail, dean cohen, what is your takeaway just from the secretary of state saying he had absolutely no recollection of any conversation that the ambassador pointed out

to? >> i believe ambassador mckinley? and that would be entirely characteristic behavior on the part of a senior diplomat like ambassador mckinley, judging by everything that's in ambassador yovanovitch's record, it would be entirely appropriate and proper for him to do that. so i'm afraid i believe the ambassador rather than the secretary of state. >> claire mccaskill, looking at the growing amount of evidence, corob rating evidenc corroborating evidence and testimony from these career diplomats coming forward, patriots, really, where you see this ukraine scandal being told from many different angles the same way and the president, the white house, and his fox news sort of i guess pipelines of information to the public are all focused on the whistle-blower revealing who the whistle-blower is, trashing the whistle-blower. does the whistle-blower matter at this point given what we have

in the public arena which are facts or testimony that is given under oath? >> who cares about the whistle-blower? i mean, seriously. it is so irrelevant at this point. >> rand paul said it really matters last night. >> well rand paul's just kind of an idiot about stuff in the is so silly that we all know that the whistle-blower's account has been corroborated by information directly from the white house. and now layer upon layer upon layer of cooperation. a prosecutor's going to be able to tell this story very effectively. there's just really one question left. is this okay? i mean, the republicans in the state have to decide is this okay? can a president of the united states leverage military assistance to one of our allies in order to get a political favor to interfere in our elections? >> now, if the republican senators think it's okay, then he's going to get lots of votes to acquit in the senate.

but if they don't think it's okay or if they think history going to be very cruel to them, hopefully the evidence will speak for itself. >> jonathan lemire. >> claire, i wanted to follow up on that exact point. over the weekend there was reporting that some of your former colleagues in the senate, republicans in the senate, have sort of settled or at least considered settling on a talking point in defense of the president saying it is a quid pro quo but it's okay, it's a quid pro quo but it's not an impeachable offense, that maybe it wasn't the perfect thing for this president do, but it doesn't rise to the level of him removing from office. from what you know, and you know a great deefal of the workings that body, how coordinated of an effort do you think this is? if this doesn't work, when whereelwher where else do these republican senators go? >> they are looking very carefully at the "new york times" state by state battleground polls.

jody ernst is still ahead against all the democratic comknees in iowa. mcsally is worried because trump is losing to the most liberal of the nominees. so it is really going to be about whether or not they think they can survive this politically. i hate to say it, it's depressing to me that it's not more of a principled stand on what's acceptable behavior for the president of the most powerful country on the planet. but i think that's the reality. and mitch mcconnell, i've had several of my former republican colleagues say to me, if it's a party-line vote in the house, it will be close to a party-line vote in the senate. >> elise. >> dean cohen, i want to shift gears just a little bit to go back to the state department a building you know well given your experience as an official at the state department during the bush administration. are you concerned about the command climate that secretary

pomp pompeo is exerting and are you concerned about the u.s. military bei state department in jeopardy? >> you have to be concerned. i served much like mckinley was to secretary pompeo. what i can tell people is the state department is a very disciplined bureaucracy. they will follow the policy guidelines that are laid down by the united states. but what they won't do is to indulge in corrupt behavior. and what they won't do is to toss one of their colleagues to the wolves simply because they're not willing to -- to engage in behavior which, first, violence american stated policy, but which is possibly in a number of ways corrupt. and i think you have to worry about what are the long-term consequences for people's willingness to stick it out?

one term of trump maybe, two terms i begin to doubt it. >> senator mccaskill, i'm struck by hearing the testimony from ambassador mckinley and hearing and juxtaposing that against what secretary pompeo said, that he never talked with him about such and such and such and such. is it time for to us basically take this as our default position that these folks are lying every time they open their moeth mouths? >> i've said over and over again this is a white house and cabinet members that lie more often than most people brush their teeth. lying is an ethos of this president. it's the example he's set. how many have they counted? i loose track of how mase tracke counted. he lies ten times a day. if you have that leadership coming from the top, it's no problem if you work for him if you lie. what's he going to do, fire you for lying? that's just not going to happen. by the way, the american people kinda get that, the fact that so many people in some of these battleground states are giving them a pass on it should be

really concerning to our democracy. >> how do you engage people who you know who are lying, who are engaging in bad faith, how do you engage them on the merits of the subject at hand when they will do exactly what you just describe? >> it's very hard to engage them and that's one of the reasons that this written testimony, the depositions that are coming out and getting people in front of the cameras and holding their hand up and having them questioned and cross-examined by really competent counsel, which is going to happen here. i mean, goldman who's working for the house intelligence committee is one of an elite number of people in the country who have handled very difficult prosecutions in the courtroom. and he's going to be asking questions and cross-examining witnesses. the american people will have a wonderful opportunity to be a jury 'if they watch all those hearings. and i certainly recommend set your dvrs, make up your own mind with the fact witnesses. take this seriously. i think if we do that, the

country, we might have a different outcome. >> one of the sections of testimony that jumped off the page yesterday from marie yovanovitch is the part where ambassador sondland, who was the ambassador to the eu having nothing to do with ukraine, came to her and said, hey, there is a way for you to save your job here and that is to put out a nice tweet about president trump. provide him the flattery he so craves and maybe you'll survive this, after she's been told her job's in jeopardy, she's got to get out of the country for her own security. we're going to see today the transcripts of gordon sondland's testimony as well. which if you now the yesterday was interesting, today with sondland and volker's transcripts coming out, that will happen a short time from now, we'll see the contradictions in his own testimony. vindman said i went to these people directly. i said these demands you were making were inappropriate. sondland testified nobody ever came to me. the evidence as claire suggests, is building against the people like sondland and people like

mike pompeo from others who have sworn themselves under oath that they saw and heard these things and are testifying to them. >> ambassador sondland is the strongest exhibit "a" in that political appointees should not be given these plum ambassador positions when they are in completely over their head. on top of ambassador sondland's blatant lies and manipulation of american diplomacy. so i'm so happy that the truth is going to come out about all of this. >> so, elliot cohen as dean of the johns hopkins university school of advanced international studies, pull back the squirrel of the scandal, evidence of a shakedown of a foreign leader, threats to the whistle-blower who came forward, and i'm not going to get the whole list through here, but an ambassador, an american ambassador being told she's going to go through some things if she doesn't step

out of the way? the list goes on. opportunity for our enemies and concerns for our alliances. what are they? >> well, i mean, look, there's been a lot of damage that's being done. one of the sources of american strength overseas, whether people like our policies or not is that they assume the united states government behaves with a certain kind of integrity, that there's a certain standard of decent behavior that we follow. and there's a lot about this which is simply thuggish, you know. when the president of the united states says bad things are going to happen to his personal representative in the ukraine, that does not sound like the united states of america. i think we also have to consider that there's a lot of long-term damage that is being done to the institution. having said that, i think, you know, the american people should take some comfort for the fact that you had a long line of people like colonel vindman or deputy assistant secretary of state george kent who stood up,

who spoke the troututh and did right thing and when called before congress testified about it. and we need to make sure those people are supported and praised. but we need to make -- it's easy to get numb to these iltiviolat of our norms and we have to push back against this that and remind ourselves it's outrageous behavior. >> it's not okay. thank you so much. coming up, as presidential candidates look to capitalize on the enthusiasm of yunoung americans heading into 2020, harvard schools have new polls that shows one democrat surging among youth voters. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe." rs. he joins the conversation next on "morning joe."

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this morning harvard kennedy school institute of politics is out with its latest harvard youth poll which surveyed 18 to 29-year-olds on the 2020 election. the poll found vermont senator bernie sanders remains the

favorite democratic candidate among young likely primary voters with 28% of support. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren surging up to second place, up 18 points just since the spring. former vice president joe biden at 16% fell to third place. he's down five points. and andrew yang has 6% of support among young voters, that's up 40 points from march. sanders and president trump received top marks for enthusiasm from young supporters with nearly 60% saying they are very enthusiastic about those candidates. more than 50% of warren's 18 to 29-year-old supporters say they are very enthusiastic about her run. however, only 39% of joe biden's young supporters say they feel the same. >> interesting. >> joining us now, director of polling at the institute of politics at harvard university, john. john, good morning. good to see you. bernie sanders always been big with young voters. interesting to see that elizabeth warren surge up into his territory. >> yeah, she was barely a blip on our radar in the spring poll

that we conducted just a few months ago. and, as you said, she's gained 18 points. her surge is reminiscent of what we saw in 2015 when bernie sanders in our spring 2015 poll started with 2% and by the fall he was at 44%. so came from nowhere. and certainly while everyone else has remained relatively flat in this poll of young people, the story at this point is elizabeth warren. >> interesting two older candidates obviously at the top of your poll, burbernie sandersd elizabeth warren popular with young voters. what do you chock that up to? >> it's not transactionsal, it's about values. it's specifically about the instructionture r structural reform to our economy, democracy, to the institutions that they've lost faith in over the last several years. >> john heilman, with elizabeth warren's popularity with young

people and her energy out there, she's definitely, we've said this many times before, one of if not the best performing candidate out there in terms of just being nimble and having a message that she's been true to for many, many years. having said that, her plans up against trump could lead for a problem for democrats. i think there's concern that she's got a proposal for medicare for all and for paying for it that is fantastical, that it cannot be passed. doesn't that ultimately give people some pause in terms of who can beat trump? >> well, that's a good question for john, actually, mika. i think there's no doubt there's a lot of democrats out there who are the more center left and moderate democrats who are concerned about those very things you just mentioned and wonder whether either of the top two candidates in this new harvard poll among young voters whether they are too far to the

left to be electable against donald trump. john, i want to ask you to go a little deeper on that question. you know, the one fact that we know about voters in this democratic no democratic nominating electorate is the one thing they're focused on above everything else is not about the candidates and character, is who is best situated to beat donald trump. reading the results of your poll, it suggests either that young voters have a different view of that or, that they don't think that electability is the most important thing, that they're more focussed on values and visionary plans. which is it? >> i think first it's around values, but it's not disconnected. i think young people believe they can see a candidate who speaks to values who can also be successful in beating donald trump. take a look at the iowa polling that came out last week. the top three candidates in iowa among young people are leading the entire state in terms of warren, sanders, and buttigieg.

i don't think there's that disconnect that we think about. in november 18th we'll be walking through some of the specifics around medicare for all and the policy initiatives. but at this point we can see that the democratic electorate among young people is as enthusiastic as i've seen in 20 years of doing this? >> claire. >> that's the cynic in me who has spent a lot of time and energy on college campuses trying to get them to vote. this number is high. in 2008 which was a historic election in many ways, that was the high water mark in the last many, many cycles in presidential politics. but 12% of these young voters still say they don't know who they're voting for. and i honestly think this is still pretty flew witnessuid. it was when you looked at the fall of 2015 verse what's

happened in 2016. talk about whether you think this enthusiasm is real or is it a reaction to trump? >> i think they think the stakes are higher in 2020 than they were in 2008. i'm very, very confident that we will break, exceed the 2008 mark. just like we doubled young people doubled the percent of participation in the 2018 midterms. i feel confident in that. i also think it is very, very fluid. 12%'s the under side in 53% saying they're very enthusiastic is terrific. but another half are not very enthusiastic. it's still early on college campus and not on college campus. a majority of young voters are not college students. there's a long way to go. at this early stage they're looking for individuals who, again, share their world view and they as the debates, as we get closer through the holidays we'll understand specifically which candidate they think is best to lead and to potentially beat trump, as john said.

>> let's disaggregate the numbers for a moment. there's a lot of talk about black voters and black voters in south carolina. when we drill down to the numbers and think about young black voters, where are they falling along this scale? >> they're split. joe biden certainly does better among black voters than does among white voters. but bernie sanders has two-thirds of his support from nonwhite voters. that means young black and hispanic voters in nevada. do not count bernie sanders out in terms of being kind of competitive with joe biden. just like we're not counting out pete buttigieg to be competitive with elizabeth warren on the college campus vote. >> and pete buttigieg focusing on iowa. i don't know, there were a couple of different possibilities for iowa looking at it right now. fair enough? >> yes. i mean, it's -- i think he's -- he's clearly kind of surging there and i think that's very

comfortable territory for him and i would not at all be surprised if he's in the top three if not potentially win. >> john, thank you very much. >> mika, we got harvard and prince ton togeth princeton together and didn't have to pay the tuition. >> i'm university of missouri. >> yea, exactly. thanks, guys. appreciate it. coming up, a chant of four more years broke out yesterday at the white house but not for the president. we'll tell you who it was for when we come back. we'll tell you who it was for when we come back.

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just opted out of the remaining four years of his contract with the washington nationals. a number of players did not attend yesterday's ceremony honoring the world champs including anthony ran doane. president trump embraced the nats figuratively and literally. he has his arms up around catcher suzuki. rubbing the shoulders a little bit. let's get in there good. important question. will stephen strasburg remain with the washington nationals? >> i would think he would. that's his home. it's where he blossomed certainly this year. unless he is tempted by san diego near where he lives. >> i think he stays. he should give albert pujols a

call. it's a good similarity. albert was st. louis. he was beloved in st. louis. he took a pass and went to a different team on the west coast. they ought to have a little talk and i'm betting strasburg stays. >> new york's got a thriving art scene from the galleries of soho. so let me ask you about the reports yesterday we got that the president may be or perhaps is attending the huge football game this weekend, lsu versus alabama in tuscaloosa. he has been at the world series, the ufc fight and now maybe going to the huge sec game. >> he seems to be in search of a sporting event that he wouldn't be booed. his reception at the ufc fight

was very mixed. there were cheers and boos. he is certainly very popular in alabama for the lsu/alabama game. that game is on saturday. on friday is the deadline to declare for the alabama senate race. jeff sessions is rumored to be considering another run. wouldn't it be like president trump who is so angry at sessions for recusing himself in the russia probe if sessions were to declare on friday trump comes to alabama on saturday, perhaps does a lot of local interviews and bashes jeff sessions, that feels like somebody right up this president's alley while at this game. still ahead, more key transcripts in the impeachment probe are set to be released today. we have already learned a lot including that mike pompeo's state department had to reach out to sean hannity for information about a u.s. ambassador. and we'll talk to one of the investigators involved in the

depositions. morning joe is coming right back.

ome to fowler, indiana.

home to three of bp's wind farms. which, every day, generate enough electricity to power over 150,000 homes. and of course, fowler. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere. he buys and sells politicians of all stripes. he's already hedging his bet on the clintons. so if he doesn't run as a republican, maybe he supports clinton or runs as an independent. i'd say he is hedging his bet. >> i have given him plenty of money. >> rand paul of 2015 would likely not recognize the rand paul of last night's trump rally in kentucky. big difference. welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, november 5th.

we have mike barnacle, national affairs analyst for nbc news, co host and executive producer of show time's the circus. former aid to the george w. bush white house and white house reporter for the the associated press. joe on dad duty, back tomorrow. what rand paul was that? i didn't recognize him. >> you can add him to the list of senators that include lindsey graham and ted cruz and marco rubio. you were there at the rally in kentucky yesterday, back this morning. rand paul walked right up to the line of outing the whistleblower. didn't say his name. give context and details that we won't give so people can decipher who he is. >> this is the push now we are seeing from the white house and the president's allies including a somewhat now unlikely one in

rand paul. the president has fixated on the whistleblower believing this person is a member of the so-called deep state, has ties to previous administrations and has been looking to get him, ignoring the fact that everything the whistleblower highlighted in his initial complaint has been corroborated. there hasn't been anything to my knowledge. of course, the memo/transcript that the white house put out of the president's call with the ukrainian leader. trump especially in the last week or so, they have the vote, this is happening. the steady stream of testimony remains damaging, has been calling for the whistleblower to be unveiled claiming that he's being protected by democrats in the media. there are federal protections for whistleblowers so people can come forward and feel like they can flag things that they see without fear of punishment or

retribution or perhaps harm to their own personal safety. the president has been doing it time and time again. rand paul went right up to the line and called for the whistleblower to be identified and subpoenas which is sort of a highlight from this rally which the president was holding when he linked his fate with the impeachment inquiry with the republican governor candidate in kentucky suggesting this is a win republicans need and can show the democrats that the american public doesn't want to back the inquiry that is imperilling his presidency. >> this is one more time where republicans in support of donald trump are going after the source of the information and not the information itself. they did the same with bill taylor and his testimony and now doing it with the whistleblower saying let's not talk about what he said which had been supported by testimony. let's talk about who he or she is. >> there are so many things wrong with that revealing a whistleblower and bullying and threatening a whistleblower.

we can leave that there. put that aside and point out that the whistleblower is actually moot at this point in terms of all the information that has come out in the open. let's start there with a first look at the closed door testimony in the impeachment probe. among the many revelations, ousted u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch told lawmakers during her october deposition fee felt threatened by president trump after it was revealed that she told the president of the ukraine that she would quote go through things. she was asked during the deposition, what did you understand that to mean? she replied i didn't know what that meant. did you feel threatened? yes, she replied. there were also other concerns for the other ambassador's safety. when asked if rudy giuliani came up in conversations, she

highlighted a conversation saying a senior official was very concerned and told me i really needed to watch my back. when asked to explain, she mentioned giuliani. ex-ukrainian prosecutor saying they were interested in having a different ambassador at the post. there is also this. yovanovitch testified that she asked u.s. ambassador for advice on how to handle attacks from sean hannity and don jr. she told lawmakers sundiland said you need to go big or go home. you need to tweet that you support the president and that all these are lies and everything else. she said, quote, it was advised that i could not see how i could implement in my role as an ambassador and as a foreign service officer. there was also another reference to sean hannity. his attacks apparently went from

fox news primetime to the top of the state department. yovanovitch said she was told the secretary or someone around him would call hannity to see if he had proof of the allegations against her and if not to stop her. hannity claims the call never happened. here's what the president said when questioned. >> reporter: was marie yovanovitch the target of a smear campaign. >> if you look at the transcripts, the president of ukraine was not a fan of hers either. he did not exactly say -- i'm sure she's a very fine woman. i just don't know much about her. >> president trump told the president of ukraine in that july 25th call, quote, the former ambassador from the united states, the woman was bad news, and the people she was dealing with in the ukraine were bad news. so i just want to let you know

th that. first of all, let's just back up to the beginning here. it feels like this ambassador who had a brother who served as an ambassador. these people put their lives up there to represent the united states of america. to say that she's going to go through some things. i don't know how to read that any other way that he is going to do something to make her life miserable. >> you have the president of the united states literally bullying an american diplomat posted abroad in a hardship post. this really puts into harsh focus the crisis that's happening right now at the state department. you've got mike pompeo out campaigning in kansas. there is going to be a congressional investigation in why he keeps going to kansas and not going abroad. and you have all of these crisis

happening not just in ukraine, but around the world. and what is happening with the state department? who is running the state department? who is protecting the state department employees who had vowed and taken an oath to their country? it's certainly not mike pompeo right now. >> it's hard to believe, but there might be a larger story than the threats to ambassador yovanovitch, and it would be the slow destruction of the state department as evidenced in the release of the transcripts. ambassador yovanovitch gets a call at 1:00 a.m. from the state department desk in washington, a woman telling her that she had to catch the next plane home for her security. >> what in the world? >> she could not decipher what her security meant. you also had michael mckinley 37 years in the foreign service indicating that he asked secretary pompeo three times to stand up for state department

personnel. secretary pompeo indicates he never talked to me. the phrase goes around and around and around. elections have consequences. we're seeing this play out in real time now with the destruction of a single department, the state department, that is key to the united states role in the world. >> it's been i think one of many institutions of the federal government where steve bannon said one of the missions was the deconstruction of the administrative state. they were serious. the administration continues to do it. to everybody's point here, you listen to what the president is saying there. we have heard president trump use the language, attack the deep state, the institutions of government. the way in which he singles out this ambassador to another head of state, he sounds like not like the president of the united states. not like a very partisan member

of the united states. he sounds like a crime boss. he sounds like if you have the head of a -- calling the president of a second world country and making direct threats upon one of the united states representatives there, some who works for him. so you imagine you take this to the human scale and imagine what this woman is going through listening to the president of her united states hearing that that president, she's worked for other presidents before, hearing that he's talking about her as if her life was in jeopardy. it's so far beyond -- i mean, there is so much horrific about the way donald trump talks about the government that's there to serve all of us and help the world. there is so much that's horrific, but moments really crystallize the extend to which the president is behaving. not just a bad president and not just a partisan president, but like a criminal in the white

house. still ahead on "morning joe," marie yovanovitch isn't the only former u.s. official to have closed door depositions released to the public. there is michael mckinley who is telling his side of the story. we'll dig into that next on "morning joe." g into that next "morning joe." (alarm beeping) welcome to our busy world. where we all want more energy. but with less carbon footprint. can we have both? at bp, we're working every day to make energy that's cleaner and better. and we see possibilities everywhere. make family-sized meals fast, and because it's a ninja foodi, it can do things no other oven can, like flip away. the ninja foodi air fry oven, the oven that crisps and flips away.

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♪ nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. ♪ welcome to fowler, indiana. home to three of bp's wind farms. which, every day, generate enough electricity to power over 150,000 homes. and of course, fowler. at bp, we see possibilities everywhere. and of course, fowler. it's been reported that there's a cyberattack on business every 39 seconds. ouch. i don't even want to think about it. comcast business has a solution.

we go beyond fast with a cloud-based security system that automatically updates, so you always have the latest protection. phishing. malware. risky sites. it can help block all of that. get fast internet and add comcast business securityedge for just $29.95 a month. it's one less thing for us to worry about. comcast business. beyond fast. congressional committees released the deposition of former ambassador michael mckinley. he recently resigned as senior adviser to secretary of state mike pompeo. he told impeachment investigators to see the emerging information on the engagement of our missions to procure negative political information for domestic

purposes combined with the failure i saw in the building to provide support for our professional cadre i think the combination was a pretty good reason to decide enough that i no longer had a useful role to play. mckinley said pompeo's decision not to release a statement in support of marie yovanovitch following the release of the transcript contributed to mckinley's resignation. he said he raised the issue with pompeo during three separate conversations but got no response. that directly contradicts what pompeo said last month that mckinley had never raised any concerns. >> mike mckinley served me well for a year and a half. i chose him. he served america wonderfully for 37 years. he had the office that was just behind my door that he can walk

in and say whatever he wanted. from the time ambassador yovanovitch departed until the time that he came to tell me he was departing i never heard him say a single thing about concerns. not once, george, did ambassador mckinley say something to me during that time period. >> mckinley testifies under oath that he went to pompeo three times and discussed that. mckinley testified that he spoke to state department official george kent who felt the state department was using bullying tactics to try to prevent him from cooperating with congress. he thought a state department lawyer was trying to shut him up which led him to write a memo detailing allegations of bullying. accusing congress of harassing state department employees. he said he received no answer.

i want to read one more quote in the deposition transcript that came out yesterday. in 37 years in the foreign service and different parts of the globe and working on many controversial issues, i have never seen that. and he's talking about the idea of using foreign service officers and a shadow foreign policy to dig up dirt for the president of the united states on a domestic political opponent. pretty cut and dry, pretty clear from his testimony. >> no question and very damaging testimony. using government resources and the president's personal attorney rudy giuliani to run a shadow foreign policy is another example of another norm that has been shattered by the president, and one with a state department that has real world consequences. ambassador taylor testified a few weeks ago about how he would look across the bridge and look at russia-backed militants and

believe real lives were in jeopardy and believe the united states was not going to provide aid to ukraine unless it put along with the push to investigate a political foe in this case joe biden and his family. this is reminiscent of the strategy during the mueller investigation, where they are trying to undermine the credibility of the bureaucrats to try to crush and interrogate the entire thing. back then it was fbi agents. they're trying to sell to the american public that you can't trust people running the investigation so therefore you shouldn't trust the facts that they find. therefore the president searching for any sort of defense and coming up empty has fixated on this whistleblower. whose identity has been floated out there already, who a number of people are concerned. the president himself thought it would be illegal may tweet out

before too long. we saw a poll that painted one picture about the presidential race. new national numbers just out this morning showed something very different. we'll break down how the leading democrats stack up head to head against president trump. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back. i am the twisting thundercloud. power... in its most raw form. speed in its most natural. i am royalty of racing, ...defender of the checkered throne.

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a new washington post abc poll out this morning shows several democratic 2020 contenders leading president trump by wide margins in potential head to head matchups. former vice president joe biden has a 17-point advantage over the president, 56 to 39%. senator elizabeth warren leads trump by 15 points, 55 to 40. senator bernie sanders also has a double digit lead 55 to president trump's 41%. mayor pete buttigieg has an 11-point advantage. and senator kamala harris has the narrowest lead with nine points, 51% to trump's 42%. let's bring in politics and

journalism professor at morgan state university and an msnbc political contributor, jason johnson. what stands out? >> it stands out the huge margins this early. i don't think anyone should be comfortable with these. this is in political science what we would call an outliar. the top four or five candidates probably do lead trump and probably do lead the president in a lot of swing states. i don't think anyone in our current political environment is going to beat the incumbent president by 10, 12 points. i don't think that's the case. one thing i have said all along, the most honest numbers, real numbers that are the best indicators to what can happen in 2020 don't happen until after thanksgiving. they happen when everybody gets home and people have a chance. when you have the chance to talk and say does it look like you

have good job prospects? once americans get together and talk about america, i find those polls to be a bit more reliable. i wouldn't be thrilled if i were a democrat at this point. and republicans still know that they've got a chance to make up the numbers. >> as jason says, there is the risk for democrats to be lulled into a false sense of security. more interesting i think were the polls yesterday of the six battle ground states that democrats need to flip back. those are air tight. in fact, donald trump is winning some of those states against elizabeth warren and even against biden within the margin of error in michigan, wisconsin, florida, arizona and president trump is up within the margin of error of north carolina. that's where the election is decided. i think that opened a lot of democrats' eyes who thought we are going to beat this guy. it can go either way in all those states. >> truly to jason's point and to

your point, there literally is almost nothing more meaningless right now than head to head polls. we don't know who the democratic nominee is. it's a year away and a national poll. we see two troubling things. and they are in parallel if you are a democrat. one is those battle ground state polls on the presidential race. the other is the fact that we have now learned that support for impeachment is not what we thought it was, which is to say the public has moved in favor of an impeachment inquiry and moved to a lesser degree than that in favor of actually getting rid of the president. it turns out that the battle ground states which are the purple states, the support for impeachment is smaller, too. i think it's a terrible mistake for democrats to look at national numbers and get overconfident. if you go out to states like the

ones that are representing the battle grounds, i was in iowa all week last week. president obama won in 2008 and won in 2012. and you talk to people out there, and they are concerned about the nature of the democratic field. they're not panicked. but they are not like -- >> it's going to be a slam dunk. >> what's the nature that is concerning? >> they are concerned about i would say talking to elected democrats including statewide. they are concerned the democratic field, people leading it many of them, elizabeth warren, bernie sanders, anybody who has embraced medicare for all, they think that is a toxic political position in a state like iowa. they look really at the top four right now and see a clear top four. one is a vice president who is showing weakness financially and otherwise. and then elizabeth warren, bernie sanders too far to the left from their point of view.

and pete buttigieg who is a mayor of a city and is not qualified to be president of the united states. so there is concern among hard core democrats in a place like iowa. president trump won it not in a very tight race. he won it comfortably in 2020. it should be a state the democrats are competitive in. i would say collectively, iowa democrats are looking at the field and saying they're not panicked, but they are not concerned. coming up on "morning joe," we'll talk to a member of the house intelligence committee who has been hearing key details from the impeachment probe in real time. "morning joe" is coming right back. real time. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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what conversations have you had? >> i don't know those gentlemen.

i have a picture with everybody. i have a picture with everybody here. somebody said there may be a picture or something at a fundraiser or somewhere. i have pictures with everybody. >> have you talked with them? >> i don't know if there is anybody i don't have pictures. i don't know them. i don't know about them. i don't know what they do. i don't know. maybe they were clients of rudy. you'd have to ask rudy. i just don't know. >> nbc news has confirmed that the indicted ukrainian american businessman with ties to rudy giuliani is preparing to comply with requests for records and testimony from congressional impeachment investigators according to his attorney. the news was first reported by reuters. it is a 180 who last month rebuffed a request for documents and testimony from three house committees. he allegedly helped giuliani try to dig up dirt on joe biden and is a key figure in the

impeachment inquiry. his attorney is also refuting president trump's claim that you heard earlier that he does not know pardon s. in a statement the attorney says in part that quote any sentiant being looking at the public record of the president and parnass together during intimate dinners, waving to each other at rallies, taking pictures together and alleged involvement with the lawyer rudy giuliani. he adds if the president did not know mr. parnass, it would imply a degree of ignorance that we are not prepared to attribute to him. joining us now, thank you so much for being on the show this morning. >> good morning. >> i look at the president at this point at these rallies and

through people on fox news so focussed on the whistleblower potentially revealing who he is. and they put he in caps and all that. and at this point, is the whistleblower really necessary to the mountain of evidence that seems to be building up here? and what would the strategy be to threaten the whistleblower at this point? >> i don't think the whistleblower is essential at this point. it's akin to trying to identify who pulled the fire alarm at the time we are trying to battle the smoke and flames. there is plenty of evidence from first-hand accounts with regard to this alleged scheme to basically condition aid to the ukraine as well as a white house meeting based on whether they were going to investigate donald trump's political rivals here in the u.s. and as far as identifying the whistleblower, i think really what's going on here is an

attempt to identify this person and then to potentially retaliate against that person. of course, that would harm the whistleblower, but it would also create a chilling effect with regard to anyone else who would want to come forward with evidence of wrong doing. i think that's intended. i think the president is saying all these things against the whistleblower in part to brush back anyone else who might come forward with evidence of wrong doing. >> it's good to see you this morning. we're getting these transcripts and will get more transcripts out this morning from ambassador sondland and others. what is the picture you have seen as someone who has sat in on these depositions and interviews where republicans and democrats have had a chance to ask their questions? what is the picture that you've seen? it seems from the outside pretty clear what took place here based on witness testimony. have you had a witness before you that gave you pause and said

maybe this didn't happen the way it appears to be? there was one witness who said he was on the phone call, heard what he thought was a quid pro quo. was there anyone who crossed your understanding of what exactly happened here? >> not so far although i'm open to hearing from anybody at this point whether they have evidence or testimony that would support or run counter to the claims against the president. i will just point out two things about the witnesses that have come so far. they are largely career public servants. they are apolitical and they basically stick their necks on the line and careers to come and testify before us. they often do so at personal expense hiring their own lawyers to come forward. they are very compelling. i can't wait for the american public to see them for themselves. the other aspect of this is that i hear testimony over and over

again about this -- basically this arrangement with regard to conditioning white house meetings as well as aid to the ukraine on a public investigation of the president's domestic political rivals which is extremely disturbing to say the least. >> let me ask you this. this is going to sound like a process thing. i think it's important in terms of the politics. for a little while, we were hearing that speaker and house democrats wanted to have articles of impeachment done and dusted, voted on by thanksgiving so that the senate can have its trial so this can all be done before 020 and the election year and getting to the point that the iowa caucuses were on the horizon. can you talk a little bit about what you expect to unfold just as a matter of timing over the course of the weeks that were -- as the public hearings and then moving to the votes? >> honestly, i don't know the

calendar. i know specific dates have been set. the public hearings or anything else at least to my knowledge. that being said, i really don't think that we should condition our hearings based on any kind of presidential political calendar. i understand that those primaries and caucuses are happening. but we have to do our duty in a way that's fair and that accords with the proceedings. all that being said, i think we have to expeditiously if for no other reason that there is an ongoing alleged scheme in the white house to conduct our foreign policy in a way that is potentially very illegal and unconstitutional potentially. we have to put a stop to it and hold everyone who is involved with it accountable. >> could you provide a little clarity in the depositions themselves. various members of congress has

indicated that they've been added to, been this, been that. who is prescribing them? is it a person hired by the democrats, hired by the republicans? what's the mechanical process of the depositions? >> these are taken by sten stenographers who are professionals, hired by the congress, the house of representatives to take down what they hear. you know, basically, i have not yet heard anybody say specifically that this particular sentence was not recorded properly or anything like that. i think, again, it's an attempt to deflect basically attention from the substance of the allegations. i think that unfortunately is happening way too much. with regard to the process, more than 40 republicans have had access to these proceedings, have questioned the witnesses,

have had equal time to do so, have made opening statements. if you look at the transcripts, you'll see that for yourself. >> congressman, if trump officials both former and current continue to assert executive privilege and they want to tie this up legally in courts, that does mean a more protracted timeline that inevtbly does hit in the middle of a political cycle. are democrats looking at perhaps getting a little tougher on exercising your power as a co-equal branch of government and using the sergeant at arms to compel more officials to testify? >> i don't know about that specific remedy, but what i do know is that yesterday chairman schiff said we are not going to delay our proceedings based on

certain witnesses not testifying. just as an example, i think that four witnesses yesterday were subpoenaed, and the white house basically blocked their testimony. i think partly because those folks are likely to provide testimony that corroborates the claims against the president. and so i think we're going to treat those, that block testimony accordingly, that it raises the entrance that they would support the claims and that their behavior not coming yesterday would play into a potential claim of obstruction of the inquiry. >> congressman, at this point jonathan has the next question. >> thanks for being on. there has been a lot of anticipation and speculation about the possible appearance of foreign national security adviser john bolten. can you give us an update on where that stands? do you have any sense whether he will appear voluntarily or will

you with a subpoena compel him to testify? >> i specifically don't know about mr. bolten's status. that being said, multiple witnesses from the national security council talked about john bolten. they said that he basically considered this alleged deal, namely conditioning aid to the ukraine based on investigations into the president's political rivals, as being illicit, that he called it a quote/unquote drug deal and so forth. i think that -- i hope that he would come forward and testify. obviously, he could really educate members of the committee as to exactly what was happening and his concerns about what he called a drug deal. >> thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we'll see what happens. what happens when tragedy knocks on your front door? three gold star families help answer that agonizing question.

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what happens when tragedy knocks on your front door? three gold star women write that if you live long enough and you have the courage to love others, you will undoubtedly face such grief and loss. and that's what we do in those darkest moments is what defines us. they are the co-authors of the

book entitled "the knock at the door." three gold star families bonded by grief and purpose. joining us now, president of the travis man yn foundation and the group's west region manager, heather kelly. thank you all very much for joining us. ryan, how and why did this book come together now? >> we decided to put this book together not just to share our fares, but to share the stories of all gold star families. right now the image of a gold star family is a widow standing at a coffin with a folded flag. we wanted to disspell that and show that there is so much more to these families. it's about resilience and what comes next beyond just gold star families. this is a book for everyone. it's a book to share if you get that knock on the door. and everyone certainly will in one way or the other. ee will face adversity and

tragedy. >> the people in the stories behind the suffering and the knock at the door, for each of you was it actually a knock at the door? can you each describe the moment? >> yeah. describe the moment >> yeah. and for me i happen to be out at work getting that face to face confirmation that your life is about to change forever can devastate you. >> for you as well? >> yeah, i was living in california at the time and they came to my house at 3:00 in the morning, and marines come to the door, and i woke up to that knock and i let them in and like amy said and that news changes your life when they sit in your

living room and tell you you lost your spouse. >> that moment for me was at my parents house with about 30 other people. my parents were having a family barbecue. so i think about it being almost poignant that we had the love and support of our friends and families there with us, but it was devastating. >> you lost your brother draft -- travis in 2007. you hope your husband who is over seas, is it always in the back of your mind, the possibility that he could not come home? >> yeah, the possibility is there, but i think anyone in order to get through a deployment you have to really think, you know, i'm going to see this person, i'm going to see them back at this point in time. if you sit there and think about

all of the fwad thing that's can happen, it can tear you apart inside, you don't want to feel that way and goes those months and months feeling like that. >> a good military friend of my lost her husband in the police department, but also anyone going through a loss and doesn't want to feel alone can take something from the book. >> not everyone is getting a literal knock at the door, but everyone has something eventually. >> there will always be something that will come and we all go through struggles so how do you struggle well and make it through to the other side. >> what would you say to maybe not a military family, but someone that feels alone, desperate, and sad. >> it was not just the knock at

the door but how we responded. and we have lived lives worthy of the sacrifice. and we all said we're stronger versions of ourselves than we were when they were here. for those that did not have a knock on the door, be the best version of yourself today. >> mike? >> amy, and all of you, actually, we have been, as you know at war for 20 years now. and less than 1% of americans have served in that war. and i'm wondering if at any moment in time after you received the knock in the door in the process of buried your loved ones, did you feel separate from america? and do you feel separate from america now? >> no, i don't feel separate from america. i felt that he was out there

doing what he want today do. he chose to step up and serve this country. so i felt like his example is something that i want all of america to understand that the work that we do at the travis foundation, you don't need a uniform to serve, you can step up and be an asset in the community. >> heather, same question? >> no, yeah, like amy my husband didn't want to be anywhere else doing anything different. so i know that when he went over seas he had that mission and purpose to serve his country in this way, and i'm proud of him. >> i know how long it takes to put books together and i wonder about the timing, any connection with that incredible moment when president trump was so disrespectful to a gold star

mother and a gold star family. and the tone and testimony for this presidency. >> i think the tone and temperature of our country as a whole, i think the idea that we can put stories of strength and resilience out there, they do not always make the news. they have an idea that there is still men and women that are flown them dover in coffins and caskets. we don't always see that and it is not in the forefront of our minds, so making sure we highlight these stories is important. >> what you do, how people can get involves, and the benefits to gold star families like yours. >> we're creating a community.

we are lead by veterans and families of the fallen and we're basically out there teaching that we can carry on the legacy of all of those men and twham served, those that we lost, and how you can pay it forward, but teaching it to our future generations living by travis's mantra of if not me, then who? and how to be resilient and i think that is important for our future generations to understand they can be at service here at home. >> the book is "the knock at the door." three gold star families bonded by grief and purpose. thank you very much for joining us this morning. it's time now for final thoughts as we wrap up the day and get ready for another big day in washington, jonathan lemaire what are you looking at? >> the impeachment inquiry continues to pace.

but it is also an election day. we're largely focused on election a year from now. but today still matters. there subpoena a number of key seats and races up in a variety of states. the president was in kentucky last night rallying there for a republican governor candidate, so it is election day, go vote. >> and mike barnacle. >> we just don't think enough about those serving and those lost. we don't think enough about them on a daily basis and i wish we would. >> this book will help and certainly our thanks to our final guests on the story for that. >> more transcripts will be released today, but how could you think about anything else. those three courageous women and their book and think about their husbands and the gold star families that gave it all so we

could sit here comfortably. >> it gets so amped up, and to remember where we all came from and what this country is about, and the values that it is based on and what people fight and die for. every day. and you have in washington dc an american ambassador testifying under oath that she was threatened by the president of the united states that things would happen to her if she did not step down and get out of the way. we're at a new level and at some point perhaps republicans may help us understand that the level we're at right now is not okay in terms of the stability and safety. our national security is at risk. today is election day and in several states across the country voter wills go to the polls to cast their votes

including mississippi, kentucky, virginia, new york, and washington. two important governors races to watch today that could give democrats a chance to flip seats in states that president trump carried in 2016 serving as a test of his reelection strategy. in mississippi, jim hood and tate reeves are facing a tight race for that state's seat, and pat bevin is fighting off a challenge from andy bashir. we'll be watching that and in and virginia with all of the seats on the ballot, democrats could flip the state house and the senate. the move could help virginia's democratic governor advance his policies and give the party more say when the state redraws their districts in 2020. a full wrap up tomorrow on

morning joe. that does it for thus morning. stephanie ruhle picking up the coverage right now. >> hi there, it is tuesday november 5th and there is a lot happening today. a few blocks from where i'm sitting house democrats are working hard to keep the momentum doing in the impeachment inquery. the administration is having more success in cutting off the new witnesses but the democrats are shifting gears and releasing transcripts of previous witnesses instead. wells griffith may testify today, but five of the next seven people scheduled to come on the hill said they're not going to show. any minute now we're expecting to get our hands on the de