♪ this is up. i'm david gura on saturday as lawmakers get ready for public hearings in just a few days, the impeachment inquiry is entering a new stage. there is also a new dynamic we are focused on this morning. that is the ballots behind the scenes between john bolten and mick mulvaney brought to life in newly released transcripts and alluded to in a letter from john bolton's laurs to lawmakers teasing all that he knows about including many relevant meetings that haven't been discussed in the impeachment inquiry as well. somebody who has been in the inner sanctum of the white house is anthony scaramucci, if only for a few days. he is now amongst the president's most vocal critics. we will get into michael bloomberg's play to enter the

presidential race. why? and a new book, a warning about the president and the reviews are out and new excerpts are available today. joining me, john lemire, catherine mangu-ward, don calloway. the impeachment inquiry will be televised starting next week. it goes public in just a few days with televised hearings after 110 hours of closed door testimony. in the latest treasure trophy of transcripts released on frooip vinman tells lawmakers there was no doubt president trump sought a quid pro quo. he and fiona hill also implemented mick mulvaney the acting white house chief of staff who did not show for his deposition yesterday defying a congressional subpoena. another no-show was john bowlon

who described rudy giuliani as a hand grenade that would blow everybody up. he is dropping a tantalizing bombshell through his attorney who says that bolton was personally involved in relevant meetings and conversations that have yet to be discussed. what does bollon no? when will the nation know it? we will have to wait and see. the president and the republicans are gearing up for a fight. on wednesday the nation will here directly from the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine, ambassador bill taylor, on friday, from his predecessor, marie ivanovic who was recalled from the post in may. they will pick up where the closed door depositions left off. another witness, trump donor turned ambassador soundland says in his testimony that the president wanted ukraine's leader at a microphone mentioning investigations offed bien and clinton. the testimony paying a picture

of a president abusing the powers of his office. let's get to the dynamic written on the front page of the "new york times" this morning. came to light in the transcripts we saw this week. the debate, the fight taking place between bolton and mick mulvaney who has been now for more than 200 days the acting chief of staff in this white house. >> absolutely. john bolton, who earlier this year depending who you ask was ousted by the administration, fired by donald trump or by his account left over his own frustrations over policy disagreements with president trump and others in the administration obviously has a lot to say. right now, it depends in what venue he will say it. as we reported at the daily beast several weeks ago within six days -- not even a week of leaving the trump administration john bolton was already in talks with book agents about possibly writing a very jussie dishy

tell-all book about his time and tensions in the trump administration. so whether or not he spills a lot of that ahead of time on capitol hill still remains to be seen. but bolton is someone based on his past memoir and testimonials about his time in the george w. bush administration is not someone above settling scores. he is a bureaucratic knife fighter who relishes bringing out his private disagreements with senior administration officials perhaps even the president of the united states itself into the public realm. whether that's on capitol hill or in his own writings or personal testimonials in the coming months or years is something you can certainly watch out for. >> here is the memo from the lawyer. three pages. i have read the quotation. are we misreading it or is it meant to tantalize lawmakers. is it something to entice a book agent or a publisher here?

he had an opportunity to testify this week. >> if you have things that lawmakers would be interested in hearing, testify. that seems to be the answer here. perhaps he will be compelled to by subpoena. i think that's the question going forward. bowlon emerged as a key figure here. some democrats i talked to say he would be their ultimate star witness, which is ironic considering how most democrats feel about bolton. or at least did until recently. but it would be very difficult for the president to undermine him. yes the president can say we had a paul falling out, he is a disgruntled ex-employee. but this is someone with strong conservative fundamentals. someone those on capitol hill have respect for. he worked in other administrations. he is someone whose words would carry a lot of weight perhaps even with those lawmakers, especially if we get to a senate

trial, those republican senators who hold the president's fate in their hands. democrats are not waiting for bolton. this week will be a banner one for this impeachment inquiry. it is our first public. the ambassador taylor in particular is someone who has written statement, his opening statement was powerful, detailed, he took a lot of contemporaneous notes. he spoke about the human toll in ukraine, what would happen if the aid was not released. i think democrats are confident not only are they going to paint vivid pictures of the presidential misconduct but they are going to convince the american people of that. we know as a last point how much this president cares about public images. >> you look at all the transcripts. hundreds of pages in length. my staff making fun of me for printing all of them out. >> okay boomer. >> first reference in the show. let me ask you, how difficult is it going to make all of it cohesive. you flip through it. it is in the weeds, granular, you see the narrative coming

together here. this is a challenge. you see who they put forward, who is going to be there on wednesday, who going to be there on friday. how difficult is it going to be to make this case? >> i think it is easier for the mueller mountain of paperwork for americans to ideas. the simple idea of a quid pro quo is -- that is the point of debate. that's something that people can understand. that's the idea of kind of self dealing and trading off. and i think it has been interesting. we have seen obviously mulvaney and others in washington simultaneously say, yeah, well that's definitely just how we do thing. and oh, my god that is absolutely against the rules. and both of those thing are true. i think that's actually an idea that's hard to convey, is this normal, not is it allowed. because it is not allowed. but is it normal in and that's the trickier part. >> we have been talking about norms for the last two and a half three years, is this just another chapter in that story this morning the president is retweeting members of congress

who were present for the depositions that took place. he is honing in there has been no indication that someone in the room with the president personally directed this to happen. maybe we will get that from ambassador john bolton. but he is defending himself by proxy on twitter this morning. >> this is what he does. the norm is that there is no floor for this president or administration. what is disturbing to me as an emerging norm is this idea of anonymous as well as bolton. these are not heroes, not patriots. if you have something about the president abusing power that goes to your national security and our safety you need to come out and testify. you shun have to be compelled by congress to testify. and we even hear that bolton will probably challenge subpoenas or likely subpoenas in court. so democrats are saying they won't do it and they will use it as evidence of congressional obstruction. if you have something and you believe that this president's behaving is wrong you should come out and testify. what is disturbing about this is the idea that not only yept to shake up my personal and professional life and endanger my family and put us all out there but the idea that i am

going to protect a profit motive of what i can say in a book is just really really pernicious. i hope that that is not something that carries beyond this administration. kind of prefer that angle. i am going to defend the proffitt motive here as the resident libertarian. >> fair enough. >> there is a case to be made here basically that as we have said there are strange bed fellows. the idea the democrats are pinning their hopes on. >> resistance figure john boltan. >> sessions, bolton, the fbi in general, not historically like an institution liberals are really putting a lot of trust in. >> right. >> partially because it is so politicized everyone is so at odds with each other maybe i do want to read it in the tell-all it might be a better way to did it to be honest, directly to the public. >> you about you reach a place in our public lives to say i understand why you do it, but it is wrong. if we have a problem with our

national security come out and say it. don't protect your pockets. >> the president tweeting through the weekly digest of the stories from the daily beast. he came across your piece and tweeted this, fake news is reporting that i am talking to mark burnett about doing a big show, perhaps the apprentice after the presidency, which i assume they mean in five news. not true, don't even have time to think about it. false reporting. what do we know about the conversations the president has continued to have with mark burnett the executive producer after he became the president. >> the president of the united states says a lot of thing, he says i never tried to do quid pro quo with the ukrainian government to get dirt on the biden family. i mean just to be very blunt about it the president of the united states is 100% wrong there. the story is true. it is backed up by multiple source. he's either forgetting multiple key conversations he has had with mark burnett or straight up

lying. i don't think anybody on the panel would be shocked to hear that the president of the united states is telling another falsehood or another lie. that is 100% explicitly get happening. getting that out of the way, in a throat clearing tidbit out of the way. president trump since he has been inaugurated missed doing the apprentice. he ascended to the most powerful position in the planet and missed it. he has had multiple conversations with his pal and former and the creator of the apprentice friend, mark burnett, rlt tv kingpin about potentially reviving the show either during or after the trump presidency has concluded. which ideas have been kicked around most prominently apprentice white house. again, these conversations

happened. it is 100% true. we broke the news at the daily beast. if that upsets the president and or mark burnett now and they want to deny it they can go with god. do whatever they want. but it is true. >> the man stands by his story. thank you for the time. president doing his maga challenge now. getting back into the realm of game shows. much more ahead including my life stit down with the white house aide turned critic of president trump. anthony scaramucci and what he thinks of the strategy to vilify the whistle blower and the witnesses coming forward. and who michael bloomberg could hurt the most among the 2020 presidential contenders. that's coming up next. 2020 presidential contenders that's coming up next. .♪ ♪when you pine for the sunshine of a friendly gaze.♪ ♪for the holidays you can't beat home sweet home.♪ the united states postal service goes the extra mile

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little michael will fail. he will spend a lot of money. he's got some really big issues. he has got some personal problems and he's got a lot of other problems. but i mao know michael bloomberg fairly well, not too well. fairly well. well enough. he will not do very well. and if he did, i would be happy. there is nobody i would rather run against than little michael. >> little michael with big problems. >> this is david guru, this is up. moorg i go pog himself to enter the race as representatives filed paperwork for him to appear on the ballot in the alabama primary after he said in march in an op ed he would not enter the raise. emphasizing the importance of

ensuring donald trump is defeated saying he is increasingly concerned the current field of candidates is not able to do that. he see democrats outpolling the president in national surveys but in swing state polling it is a different story. ali vitali joins us from new york. why is he doing this? what's the insight that you have into that? >> look, it seems like he wants to run for president. it felt that way in march. >> to be fair he wanted to for a long time. >> four years ago, same thing. we have seen it play out before and have it not manifest. it is not officially man fasting yet either though. i guess it is official when trump gives you a nickname. so he is there. in march he didn't run because he felt that the moderate lane was occupied by joe biden. clearly this is an indictment of what he sees in the field. his team is saying he is troubled. the question is is he more troubled by joe biden or someone like elizabeth warren, who we know, no love lost between those

two. it is interesting what he is seeing in the field and if he ends up jumping in. >> john, you covered him as mayor. influential democratic strategist is still with him. you don't keep somebody like that unless you have plans. he was influential in a lot of democrats races. some might say why isn't that enough? >> bloomberg has kept a number of political advisors on retainer since he left new york. there is no secret about his ambitions. he believes he could be a very good president. he never thought he could win. he looked at it in carefully in 2016 and looked at it again this time around and came to the conclusion that he couldn't. he felt there was a moderate lane being opd by joe biden. bloomberg is not alone and people are concerned that perhaps the biden campaign is faltering and he is concerned about the sort of ascending elizabeth warren and bernie sanders and so on.

but there is a lot of grumbling among democrats that he is jumping in, jumping in late. he is now saying he won't try to play in aye iowa and new hampshire. he will play to the bigger states on super tuesday. why not support klobuchar or booker? it is not a garp tee that he will run. bloomberg has a giant ego by his own admission and he would have a difficult time with a loss. i don't know there is much of an appetite out there for him among democratic voters. at a lot of his policy beliefs are out of step. stop and frisk is going to be a tough sell particularly among minority voters in the democratic field. he has something trump doesn't. trump claims to have $3 billion. michael bloomberg has over $50 billion. i think that is something that would drive trump insane as a

general election candidate but that's a long way to go. i will say this, if bloomberg eventually opts not to run as a democratic but instead as a third party all that does -- even his own advisors recognize that would hand the presidency back to trump. >> if you look at elizabeth warren or bernie sanders those further left than moorg is. >> right. >> they see this as an opportunity as confirmation of what they have been saying all along. >> they do. but moorg as the rappers would say don't put no fear in nobody's heart. as a democratic voter. >> okay. >> get out of here. >> as a democratic voter these are the people i talk to outside of the bubble every day. i don't know what michael bloomberg brings to this that voters have been looking for. he is not the missing link in any voting constituency that i would speak to. this seems like the world's most remarkable vanity project of the moment. if you are a billionaire maybe

you can do that type of thing. i don't know what he brings to this race which in my mind makes me default to this being a remarkable exercise in hubris 123450 catherine, there are billionaires in this country who are cheered by this. >> all of them will be running for president in the next -- lets -- i think bloomberg really is the candidate who finally brings together all the weaknesses of kamala harris and bill deblasio, thank god. just what we have been waiting for. it is a real combination of this kind of law and order record which is not what democratic voters are looking for. the repudiation of stop and frisk was long time coming. i am glad it is here now. bloomberg is not there. the idea that both trump and bloomberg and deblasio are all out there saying i am a guy who really understands new york and or business, vote for me. that's not helping.

that's not the conversation we need to be having. >> ali, what are you looking for in the come days? he filed paperwork in alabama trying to get petitions signed in arkansas. what are you watching for to give you the indication whether he jumps in? >> time will tell. the official words. we need to hear him say the words i am going to announce my run for the presidency. as much as there is chatter in the democratic donor base there is not that chatter of i wish i had more candidates from voters in iowa and new hampshire. there is satisfaction with the field. god, i hope so if you have 20-plus people running for president, i hope you can find someone you like in in a group, right? that's a lot of people. i think the general mood that i sense from voters, especially in the early states is i have a look at a big field, please narrow it down. >> ali vitali with us here in new york. msnbc and the "washington post" hosting the next democratic

debate. michael bloomberg will not be at the debate. we will ask candidates what voters need to know. that is wednesday november 20th here on msnbc. up ahead, jeff sessions throwing his hat into the ring not before trying to make peace with the president who labelled him the biggest mistake of his presidency. >> the attorney general says i am going to recuse myself. i would have quite simply picked somebody else. >> i think jeff sessions would be over trump but here's this. >> president is doing a great job for america and alabama, and he has my strong support. surprise! a new buick? for me? to james, from james. that's just what i wanted.

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everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. everywhere. i put in an attorney general that never took control of the justice department, jeff sessions, never took control of the justice department. sessions recused himself which he shouldn't have done, or he should have told me. even my enemies say that jeff sessions should have told you that he was going to recuse himself and then you wouldn't have put him in. he took the job, and then he said i am going to recuse myself. i said what kind of a man is this? and by the way, he was on the campaign.

you know, the only reason i gave him the job, i felt loyalty. >> this is up. i am david gura. what a difference a year makes. that was president trump during the height of the russia investigation accusing jeff sessions for recusing himself during the mueller investigation. he calls appointing jeff sessions the attorney general the biggest mistake of his presidency. and jeff session is in the senate race for alabama and has this -- >> when i left the cabinet did i write a tell-all book? no. did i go on cnn and attack the president? nope. have i said a cross word about our president? not one time. the president is doing a great job for america and alabama, and he has my strong support. >> jeff sessions has been fun employ -- unemployed since he left washington, d.c. the way that we went into

announcement, the binary was he was going to be the anti-trump candidate, he was going to do it without the back of president trump. now you see this plea. what do you make of that tack here. >> this is one of the most interesting relationships in washington. remember, sessions was the first senator to endorse trump's fledgling presidential bid in 2015. >> that's loyalty to the president. >> loyalty to the president. he was given -- offered a cabinet position, he took attorney general. while attorney general he was effective for conservative causes but he committed the original sin, he recused himself from the russia investigation. the president blamed him for that which led to robert mueller and it shadowed the white house for two years. he never forgave him. the president is still raged against him privately. in recent weeks when rumors were starting that sessions was going

to jump back into the race he was musing maybe he should go on the attack, go after sessions. but sessions -- remember that is his first campaign ad. he is declaring his candidacy by saying i am for donald trump. donald trump is popular in alabama. we know the hold he has on republican base voters. the president so far has held it up. he said he was not going to criticize sessions. he wasn't going to criticize him either. that's all session is looking for here. he can win as long as trump doesn't go after him. where is president trump going today? alabama. for the alabama/lsu football game. can he hold his tongue? we will see. >> the president has joked to senators and white house aides that he would move to alabama and compete against sessions himself in the primary. let's listen to jeff sessions on fox earlier this week talking about his decision to make that

recusal. let's hear what he had to say. >> no. i -- i did the thing i had to do under the rules of the department of justice, the senior advisers told me that this is what the rules required, the regulations required, and i read them and i don't think there was any out for me. but i know how painful it was for the president. >> catherine, let me ask you to react to that. jonathan is saying donald trump is extremely popular in the state of alabama. he is heading there today. you have jeff session who is is banking on his long history help senting this state had the senate. if he makes that statement that he did what he was told to do, is he going to win with alabama voters. >> the ad doesn't appear to be sincere love for the president. it doesn't read that way to me. but i think what trump has shown

is he will sometimes wait until the day before an election to weigh in and he can swing it. sessions had a bad time of it. and -- >> i wouldn't call it a good run but it was a run. >> like a rat with a cocaine pain, i have got to get back, back to washington. if this is what it takes, i will do it. >> don, you have former colleagues saying they will support him. roy blunt, john better as of wyoming all taulg politico they would back their former colleague. he is a creature to a large extent of washington. >> in the rscd the republican senate caucus can raise money for him even if the president does not say he is his favorite

guy. intelligent analysis aside. >> slogan for the show. intelligent analysis aside. >> i have never seen something so emasculating. let's be clear. jeff sessions will win the alabama primary. the president will likely stay out of it. but it is actually an affront to my home state because you don't get on tv and reintroduce yourself as saying hey i have this record of standing for conservative principles throughout our state, i have this record of service to our state? no, i am going to come with feelty and obese yens to the president. that is a sad day for all politics but particularly for jeff sessions a sad day in his break. >> we are going to go to break to talk about your college days. anthony scaramucci joins me in the next hour. up next, how bill barr refused

to inform the legality of president trump's crawl can the president of ukraine. and later, who the republicans are willing to throw under the bus to defend the president of the united states. >> speaker nancy pelosi is trying to impeach him. i don't mean any disrespect but it must suck to be that dumb. >> shhh! he's standing right behind you. what are you doing? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need.

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the difference between words and actions matters. that's a lesson politicians in washington could use right now. i'm tom steyer, and i approve this message. mornings were made for better things than rheumatoid arthritis or psoriatic arthritis. when considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz xr, a once-daily pill for adults with moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis or active psoriatic arthritis for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. it can reduce pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections like tb; don't start xeljanz if you have an infection. taking a higher than recommended dose of xeljanz for ra can increase risk of death.

serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened. as have tears in the stomach or intestines, serious allergic reactions, and changes in lab results. tell your doctor if you've been somewhere fungal infections are common, or if you've had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. don't let another morning go by without asking your doctor about xeljanz xr. ♪ if i asked bill barr to have a press conference, i think he would do it. but i never asked him to have a press conference. why should i? do you know why i wouldn't do it? because the phone call was perfect. >> this is up, i am david gura. on friday the president disputed reports he bushed attorney general bill barr to hold a press conference defending the phone call with ukraine's

president. we do know the president repeatedly referenced the attorney general on that july 25th phone call as the person with whom ukraine should work. bill barr has not recused himself from all of this of course and the justice department failed to raise the whistle blower's complaint with congress and did not investigate the president's behavior as a criminal matter. catherine, let me get your reaction to what this was, bill barr's conduct a couple months ago and what he is now. >> the thing i am struck by in the president's most recent remarks about this is it is a classic dynamic around authoritarian leaders that sometimes you really can't tell whether they specifically ordered their minions to do the bad thing or whether their minions spontaneously discerned

perhaps they should do the bad thing to curry favor. i think we are seeing that over and over. with barr it is hard to know how much of it is a direct order. how much of it is a request, and how much of it is a -- just kind of spontaneous choices on his own part. i think people are looking at lot to sort of interpret this contrast. it honestly could be almost randomness. >> your insight into that jonathan? we were talking about the relationship between jeff sessions and president trump. interestingly you have had matt whitaker the interim attorney general coming out and saying what is happening with impeachment is unlawful. >> this evokes what the president wanted james comey to do. he demanded comy hold a news conference indicating he was not the subject of the russia investigation. comey refused to it and it got him fired. a lot of people in washington are wondering are we heading down that path.

we are not. the president is happy with barr. he finally has his tony. this is something that barr is being careful. he has refused to do this. there has been some mixed reporting as to whether the president directly asked him or whether or not it was done through intermediaries but they both deny it. let's be clear, the president and ba happened and the news conference has not occurred. this is what the president would like to see especially now as the impeachment inquiry really heats up this week. they have been trying to fight it on process. that goes away now that we are in the open hearing session and they are having a harder time fighting a you will the facts. >> this new book, by anonymous, and there are a few excerpts out. painting a picture along the lines what have catherine is talking about here confirming what a lot of people think or know about this administration

about the way the president agents and people respond to him? >> so the fact that gets you canned is the first act of refusal or denial to affirm or kind of just carry out his wishes with impugnity. this may be the beginning of barr falling out of some favor with the president. the president loves nothing more than a show of public support, truthful or substantive or not. this is maybe the first time. however i need to see a little bit more from william barr before we induct hibl into john bolton's resistance club. barr denies he was ever actually asked. perhaps word got to him to do this but he didn't do it but him denying he was asked is him cyaing a little bit and maintaining his position in the president's bosom. lindsey graham is now blasting the president's foreign policy as he defends the

president. >> what i can tell but the trump policy toward the ukraine, it was incoherent. it depends on who you talk to. they seemed to be incapable of forming a quid pro quo.

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i'm david gura. republicans have been pulling out all the stops to defend president trump as the impeachment inquiry enters a new stage this week, public hearings. here's a look at some gop's gymnastics we have seen on display. >> republicans are struggling to defend the president. >> we are not struggling on anything. >> i trust president zelensky and president trump. >> what i can tell you about the trump policy toward the ukraine, it was incoherrin. it depends on who you talk to. >> there are perfectly appropriate quid pro quos, and there are inappropriate quid pro quos. >> they seem to be incapable of performing a quid pro quo. >> that doesn't rise to the level that we are trying to make it an impeachable offense. >> it is getting easier to defend the president. >> don't you think we have the

right to all these people. >> dent you think joe biden should appear? don't you think hunter biden should appear? and absolutely the whistle blower should appear. >> i am not going the read these transcripts. the process is a joke. >> as evidence against the president piles up will republicans tornado on him. tim alberta writes there is a sizable number of republican senators and representatives who believe ump trump's actions are theoretically impeachable through a fact-finding mission believe removal from office is not an absurd idea. the republican party will not be forsaking trump apart from an admission. distill the republican response to this is. are we closer to having a coherent response from what we have learned from the depositions that have taken place? >> impeachment is going to happen, republicans will say

inappropriate. not the way i would have done things but doesn't rise to the level of removal from office. full stop. we cannot expect to see this president removed from office. there is no moral courage or clarity each on the republican side that should have any of us convinced that any of them are going to do the right thing here. >> catherine, go to rand paul on the senate floor saying bring in more witnesses. i think today is the deadline under the house rules for republicans on the house intelligence committee to suggest what witnesses they want to bring forward as the hearings take place? what do you make of that? they want to broaden the impeachment inquiry. >> like the last thing we need are is bunch more people who are going to show up and confuse things also maybe not show up and confuse thing. i am struck by what you said, will the gop stick by trump? maybe as a party, yes. but also we have seen a record number of gop congressmen

retire, choose not the run for re-election, generally just skedaddle. many of them it is very, very clear that they are doing so because they don't find the president's behavior defensible. people you know you come out in pave of kbooechlt and retire the next day or vice versa. those are your two choices. that's worth keeping in mind. there could be more attrition if more information comes out that is more damning. >> take us into the white house. the president hiring communication aides to help him with the messages, pam bondi among them. there is a piece in the "washington post" how we might see deputies thrown under the bus. rudy giuliani, mick mulvaney. what is the strategy from the white house when you look at republican response under the administration? >> there is growing speculation as a that someone, rudy giuliani or mulvaney will be made the scapegoat, the blood sacrifice, from day one the president has

been dissatisfied how the white house has handled this. he feels like with mull vein and the press secretary there has been no attempt to change the narrative. we have seen an evolution now now we are at the point where there was a quid pro quo but quid pro quos happen all the time. >> unimpeachable quid pro quo. >> it is not one that can get you removed from office. that's where they are settling. the president doesn't like that one because he resists that he did anything wrong in his perfect call. s that where they are. they are real focus on the whistle-blower. now, on one hand, that seems nonsensical. the testimony from officials. but there's an attempt by the president and his allies to sort of make the whistle-blower the peter strauk, if you will, the fbi agent from the mueller probe who was found sending text messages that made it clear he didn't like the president. though, there was no suggestion that biased or influenced the

actual investigation. but they're looking to make someone the face of this. to suggest if we can undermine the person behind the investigation, that undermines the integrity of the investigation itself. now, i don't know that that's going to be successful but that's where we are rieght now and we have come very close. i mean, the whistle-blower's identity has been banded out. he's calling for it, too. >> we have 30 seconds but i want to ask you as the resident libertarian rand paul of that belief system, stripes, what do you make of that? his call for this person's privacy to be eliminated or revealed? it seems counterintuitive of what i know rand paul to believe. >> early in his career, he really made a name for himself and certainly endeared himself to me by sticking up for privacy, rule of law, keeping a lid on surveillance, anti-patriot act. so i agree it seems like a surprising turn that he suddenly is into the opposite of that. he will tell you that he has his own whistle-blower protection

proposal. and so i suppose you can check that out and decide for yourself. but looks like a little bit of a turn to me and it's not something that's very encouraging from the perspective of libertarians. >> there you go. appreciate that. thanks very much. thanks to all of you. make sure to tune in tomorrow. going to be here with zerlina maxwell and michelle goldberg. up ahead on "up" anthony scare mutually's going to join me. plus, roger stone's trial under way in washington. tell you about the judge's request for jurors not to watch a movie tied to this case. details on that next. e tied to . details on that next that's why we're offering 50% off family lines for military, veterans and first responders. so they can stay connected, on our newest, most powerful signal ever. and now, we are also offering half off our top samsung phones for military, veterans and first responders. our service is just one way we say thank you... for theirs.

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it's republicans in the administrations. buckle up for the first day of televised impeachment hearings, the president's response is the same as it ever was. just like a broken record. >> so my phone call, which was totally perfect and appropriate. i had a perfect phone call. a totally perfect phone call. my phone call was perfecto. >> perfect, it was not. more than 100 hours of close door testimony confirms the claims made by that whistle-blower who's been targeted by the president and many of his allies. they've been calling for him or her to be identified and to testify. an attorney for the

whistle-blower has put the white house on notice saying quote, your client, the president of the united states, is engaging in rhetoric and activity that places my client, the intelligence community whistle-blower, and their family in physical danger. but if you ask president trump's daughter ivanka, the whistle-blower is now irrelevant. >> i don't view the whistle-blower as -- it -- it shouldn't be a substantive part of the conversation because this is a third party who was not privy to the call and did not have firsthand information. to me, it's not particularly relevant. aside from what the motivation behind all of this was. >> ivanka in mow dorocco, let's clear here, a majority of the allegations have now been backed up by more than 100 hours of time. he or she says the president's actions were a risk to national security. that the white house locked down records of the call in which the president was advancing his personal interests. and while the president insists there was no quid pro quo, at

least six foyeofficials have no testified there was. if you think of this whole thing as a book, the story has advanced beyond what was in that initial complaint. the story is much richer. we know so much more now than we did about that dual track foreign policy, about rudy giuliani's role, about ambassador sondland's role in u.s. diplomacy. what happened on that phone call and what made it into the white house's record of that phone call and what didn't. that what ambassador john bolton said and who was worried and who raised concern as all of this unfolded. up with me this hour, white house reporter for the los angeles times. christina greer is associate professor at fordham. and also with us from washington, d.c., he is a congressional reporter for politico. andrew, get us up to speed. you and kyle have been doing great reporting over these last many weeks on how this process

is unfolding, how it has unfolded. let's get to this. the calls for the whistle-blower to be identified, to be unmasked and testify, juxtaposed with what we know now, how much of that would you say the republicans -- >> yeah, that's exactly right. and what ivanka trump said i through you would find a lot of democrats who really agree with that, right? as she said essentially the whistle-blower is irrelevant right now. i think democrats would say the same because as you mentioned before, they've had hundreds of hours of witness testimony that has corroborated the central claims. one of which i'm told democrats want to focus on next week during the public hearings is the part of the whistle-blower complaint where there is basically an alleged coverup, right? the idea that these national security counsel lawyers tried to put the fuller call transcript, which of course we don't have at this point, on to a highly-classified server to ensure that it wouldn't get out and nobody across the government and certainly not the public would be able to see it. that's something that democrats are really going to focus on in

the hearing next week. it hasn't gotten as much attention amid the talks of these two, of course, parallel foreign policies. one being the u.s. government foreign policy with regard to ukraine. and the second being the one that rudy giuliani pushed and of course the allegations of a quid pro quo. but this -- this is really a central part of democrats' case and they're not going to just let it go by the wayside next week. >> during colonel vindman's testimony, he said trying to get stuff restored in that record and how it was removed afterward. he is not yet on the docket. we're not going to see him testify next week. one would think perhaps he would in the coming days. walk us through what happens after friday of next week. after we hear from marie yovanovitch, the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. who we might hear from the week after? >> so they obviously haven't announced who -- who's going to appear for public hearings the following week but there will be at least two or three public hearings that week, i'm told.

colonel vindman, obviously is going to be at the top of their list. fiona hill, former top russia advisor on the national security council is also going to be high on that list. anybody who can essentially speak to the public to back up the allegations of a quid pro quo. the first part of that being the idea that the white house meeting between president trump and president zelensky was used as leverage to get these politically-motivated investigations that the president wanted. the second aspect of that being, of course, the military aid to ukraine. democrats feel like they have less evidence of that and more evidence that the meeting was leveraged as part of the quid pro quo. and the military aid remains a glaring blindspot for them. i've talked to democrats who say that basically the reason why they haven't figured out why the aid was initially put on hold and sort of what the internal machination of that were is because these officials from the office of management and budget just have not shown up. out of all of these sort of executive branch departments and agencies who have been asked to

participate in this impeachment inquiry, omb is the only office that has not participated at all. at least four officials from that office have been asked to testify. a couple of them have even been subpoenaed. none of them have shown up. so that really is a glaring blind spot for democrats as they head into public hearings and it's going to be something they have to address when they're talking about these allegations of a quid pro quo. >> christina, let's turn to these transcripts. we're seeing divides that emerge between and among them for some of this administration. the one that is front and center today between mick mulvaney acting chief of staff and to andrew's point a minute ago -- but that's a binary ewe're goin to be looking at very closely as we go through these transcripts. >> right. i mean, there are a few things. one, when are subpoenas optional? i mean, and -- and this is what worries me. >> laughing. >> but i mean, i was under the

understanding if you are subpoenaed, you must present yourself. i mean, what worries me is that united states government works only when the various branches of government uphold their duties. and what we are seeing time and time again every time that we talk about this is that there are people who should be loyal to the u.s. government. and instead, they are loyal to the president. and we know that the president, he himself, has said what has been on the phone call. we know that we don't have a complete transcript. and so as the democrats are trying to gather this information about the ukraine phone call, we must simultaneously move forward with impeachment hearings because the evidence has been there since probably early january 2017. so unfortunately, i think -- i would say 50% of the american public is getting a little frustrated because it seems as though there's overwhelming evidence that this process should and could be farther along down the road because the president has been consistently breaking norms but also possibly breaking laws that he's admitted

himself. >> subpoena question in just a minute. but quickly let me ask you about another contrast that's emerging. and that is to christina's point, you have people who are loyal to the president. that's coming out in these transcripts. but then as you read what fiona hill had to say, what george kent had to say, these are people who have, have had for a long time, a real loyalty to this country and to the institutions themselves. there's a moment in fiona hill's testimony where somebody asks her and i'm paraphrasing here, what did you think of donald trump becoming president? she effectively says i'm agnostic. my loyalty is to the country. my loyalty is to the presidency. she's talking in terms that are in such stark contrast to what we're hearing from so many other administration officials. >> right. she personifies that class of experts, washington career civil servants. people whose expertise has built up over years and whose expertise the president has shown no regard for. when fiona hill first walked into the white house in a meeting, he thought she was there to get him coffee. >> no shocker there. >> what she talked about in that

transcript, the white house is going to and republicans are going to try to push this strategy we're seeing through all sorts of defenses at the wall here. one of them is that, you know, the president didn't know what he was doing. the other might be, well, this was giuliani or this was mulvaney or the president wasn't involved in some of these requests. didn't know. you know, in that testimony what stood out to me was the conversation she had with gordon sondland when he says i'm in charge of ukraine policy. she says, no, you're not. he says yeah the president says i am. so, you know, she's right there under john bolton. she -- her -- her transcript, which came out yesterday, showed so much of bolton's proximity to a lot of the stuff but also just puts you in the white house for a lot of these situations as this is coming -- coming into, you know, her view. and it's pretty clear that this was happening at the direction of the president. the phone call on july 25th. that's just sort of the tipping point that sparked the whistle-blower complaint. but this goes back to when

people first realized that rudy giuliani was over in ukraine sort of free-lancing. >> you bring up john bolton. katy, i'll turn to you on this point. getting back to the subpoena issue. there's this extraordinary memo from john bolton's lawyers indicating there's more to what john bolton knows. he is in such close proximity to these principals, to fiona hill, certainly the president of the united states as well. how do you read this? the tantalizing tidbit there is that he knows more, seemingly has an appetite to talk about it or write about it. >> he doesn't feel like he can because he's caught between. yeah, and here's what's happening and -- and seems to be a specialty of the trump administration. it's the -- of the law. as a member of the bar, we have an oath. we have professional responsibility codes of conduct. and the bastardization of the law is you don't comply with

subpoenas until someone tells you you have to. but to andrew's point about hearing from the people that know what's going on, more accurately, isn't it who we're not hearing from? bolton, mulvaney, perry. i mean, there's this series -- july july giuliani -- i mean, there is a series of people we're not hearing and those are people right next to it. and i think what's really smart about the public hearings is when you present a case when you're in trial, we have this privacy concept. the first thing you hear and the last thing you hear. so when you lead off with a taylor, a kent, and yovanovitch, i would save vindman for last and i would stick a few people in between in terms of the public hearings. that's the order i would do. >> going to play a little bit of tape here. we've heard republicans defend this, try to defend this. dancing around all of this. play a little tape about a couple lawmakers responding to what we've learned about this case over the past few weeks. >> you're going to change the course, the very fabric of de mock rasy today based on someone

wrote a written question of someone that wasn't even on the phone call. >> i think this is a bunch of crap. nobody has testified there was a quid pro quo. people presume. most of it's based on hearsay. >> i'll conclude with you and just have you react to that. you've been wandering the halls of congress talking to lawmakers hearing some version of what we heard there colorfully from senator lindsey graham. how unify is the message there what you just heard frthere fro senator graham? >> i think that's evidence by the fact that leader mccarthy in the house played jim jordan of all people on the intelligence committee. that was a big move. it signals that republican leadership is gearing up for a fight right now. and they're trying to keep everyone in line. obviously, there are folks on the senate side, like mitt romney and susan collins, who might flip. folks on the house side like francis rooney and will hurd who have been thrown out there as names of people who could eventually vote with the democrats on this issue.

will hurd obviously sits on the intelligence committee so he will be part of these public hearings. i think some democrats i've talked to think it's kind of like an intimidation tactic on the part of leader mccarthy by adding jim jordan to the committ committee to basically send the message we need to stay in line on this issue and it's going to be really important to keep that unity going through to the public hearings. but as you've been talking about, that's going to get tougher and tougher. >> very quickly, eli, as you read these transcripts, what does it tell you about the dynamic in that hearing room? one hearing, eric swalwell is telling mark meadows to stop talking so the chair can finish talking. -- there is high drama in these. >> yeah, matt gaetz being asked to leave. >> there's so much of a side show and this is with cameras not in the room. so you can sort of put that, you know -- that will be exponentially more insane next week when there are cameras in

the room and they are performing for the public and trying to take the pain off some of these witnesses. but, you know, you're right. and again, i'm just -- the hill transcript is fresh in my mind because i was poring over it yesterday. but the part where she's talking about the intimidation against marie yovanovitch and she's talking about some of the things that went through and the conspiracy theory she's being asked about and she realchided of the -- these theories about ukraine meddling in the election are not true. why do you keep asking about them? why aren't you more concerned about protecting-l the next election? why are you held up on this bogus theory? >> saying effectively if you keep chasing these rabbit holes, we're in danger here. >> coming up, former white house communications director anthony scaramucci's going to join me on the president's impeachment, on anonymous, and his message to republicans. anonymous, and his message to republicans. a wealth of perspective.

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this is "up." i'm david gura. no secret the white house is in turmoil as impeachment proceedings move forward. the house continues to call lawmakers to testify. even as several administration officials were no shows, including john bolton and acting chief of staff mick mulvaney. the transcripts we have seen of close door depositions give us a consistent narrative that's pretty damning for the president. alexander vindman told congress quote there was no doubt president trump sought quid pro

quo. meanwhile, a new book by the anonymous author in "the new york times" paints a picture of the white house that operates at the whim of the president. in one of the excerpts from that book, it's like showing up at the nursing home at daybreak to find your elderly uncle running pantsless across the courtyard cursing loudly about the calf fearia food. as worried attendants try to catch him. you're stunned, amused, and embarrassed all at the same time. only your uncle probably wouldn't do it every -- >> my next guest served in the white house just six days but since then, he's become a vocal critic of the president. president trump is not stable. how many was it? >> it was 11 days. you just took out like 50% of pmy federal career. >> joining me now, anthony scaramucci. >> it's great to be here, david. >> you're not the author of this book. >> well, obviously, i'm not because it's -- i'm willing to

speak very openly and declaratively about what is going on and so i think that's one of the big problems with the anonymous book. i mean, i would love to get the person out but i would also love to get the people out there that i have spoken to that are in the shadows still that see the thing very similarly to what anonymous is saying. and that would literally say, hey, this is exactly what's going on. the -- the fear that most of us have is that he is dissembling the administrative mechanisms of the executive branch. >> intentionally. >> it doesn't even matter. if it's intentional or unintentional, the 16 cabinet positions, the 190 sub-agencies, there's no symphony, there's no coordination anymore. you know, most -- most people know from business school or from the pentagon, you can have six direct reports. the president really has no reports. everything is just flying around in there. and what you also know about our government is that these departments need each other. so treasury needs to communicate with justice and vice versa. >> how much -- >> so a lot of that is broken

down. and i'm pretty sure that the -- i haven't read the entire book, just the excerpts. but i think that's what the point is that he or she is trying to make in the book. >> you can't be surprised about dismembering, though. if you go back to is what steve bannon said early on, this was intention of the president early on. >> well, if you want to take away parts of the administrative state, that is a legal process and a deregulation process but you got to have the government organized. i mean, what i don't get about these guys is that it's 243 years later, it's the most powerful nation in the history. so they had to have done something right. the diplomatic corp., the state department, the department of defense. so the notion that nobody did anything right and now president trump is in power and he's the only person that knows anything, all that sort of nonsense doesn't make any sense. so i think the point the anonymous person is making is however bad you think it is, it is actually way worse. and so now, the real -- the real irony of the whole thing is what are the republicans doing?

and i tell you what i think they're doing. they're making a bet that everybody in the united states has a two-week attention span. senator graham who i genuinely like, you know, there's a 90-second video that was put out yesterday just him declaring negatives about the president. now, he's declaring positives. when this thing blow up, and i predict that it will, everyone has a two-week attention span. they'll all start saying, well we knew this, we knew that, we knew this. and they'll start going back to negatives. that's the life cycle with trump, by the way. you go from, okay, wow, he is a disaster. let me figure out a way to like him. i'm a republican. let me figure out a way to work with him. to, oh my god, he really is a complete disaster. and so everybody's going through that arc. >> equipped with the anonymity of the book, i go back to the initial piece. that was a piece designed to make people feel somewhat at ease that there was a steady state, there was administrative state present in this administration that was sort of righting the ship. compensating for what the president's doing. you look at this book, what i have read of this book, you have that. that's an underlying theme of

it. but there's a code to it, which is there's no hope. >> well, i think that's really the risk. i think at the end of the day, there has to be a surgeon general warning label. >> do we have a surgeon general at this point? >> we don't. we don't. well, we don't have a surgeon general but i'm talking metaphorically. we need a group of people that have worked for the president. there's 85 or 90 of us now to be that proverbial surgeon general warning label and say, yep, you're going to have people that want to stay in power for the sake of power. people that really love the country, love the world, love people recognize that there's something really wrong with the president. look at the 40-minute press spray yesterday and look at the dissembling of this human being on the world stage before man and womankind and i would say to myself, wow, nobody really likes the guy where they would pull himself and say, hey, why are you handling yourself like this? if anything, they're encouraging it. so this is even more bizarre behavior. but there's something about the institution of the presidency,

david, where we're allowing a normalization of this. we're saying, okay, he really can't be that crazy. he's the president of the united states. but the truth of the matter is he actually is that crazy and we have to -- we have to open people's eyes to it and we have to work on a solution because if he gets re-elected, i think that's got to be on the table because let's say the republicans don't break and call lawless behavior lawless. and he gets put up against somebody like elizabeth warren, i think he can beat elizabeth warren even with all the wounds he'll have going into the election. i don't think people want socialism frankly or wealth taxes and single-payer healthcare and things like that. >> what should we take away do you think from how he is handling this moment? impeachment, public hearings happening this week. the way he's dealing with that. the way he's rejected having a war room. >> so far, i think he's been successful because he has bullied and intimidated the people in his party. the people in his party have subordinated their patriotism and righteousness for personal power and partisanship and he's

played them. >> does that surprise you? 6 days, 11 days. >> listen, i got -- i got an 11-day phd in how these people operate, okay. so let me just say this. it does surprise me actually. at this point, given the level of lawlessness, given the fact that we know that he broke the law, given the fact that we know the personality. i mean, there's 193 nations in the u.n. you think he made one call over a three-yesterday periar period? we know that's not true. so we know there's rank lawlessness, rank immorality. john kelly, white house chief of staff basically said last week, hey, you know, he was going to get impeached if he didn't have a person in there to block him from doing the things that he's capable of doing. okay. so that's basically a pretty assertive statement on the president's amoral behavior. so we're here now. i did support him. i've obviously offered my apology for supporting him. and we have to right this ship and just like every good entrepreneur, when you hire somebody for a job and they're

absolutely terrible at the job and they're ruining the company, you got to fire the person. it's not a flip-flop. it's an assessment of a person's behavior and a person's mannerisms and i would say to anybody watching, if you are on a publicly-traded company's board and you saw the behavior of the ceo, like president trump's behavior, he would be out in two seconds. two seconds, he'd be out. and so we got to get people to start thinking like that and we got to get more and more people to speak out. and i just find it astonishing that my fellow republicans, even the ones that you would think that are, you know, really patriotic, that are anchored into the love of country, i'm astonished that they're sticking with this guy. >> this notion of if it were a publicly-traded company if the board were there. you mentioned sycophants a minute ago. i guess that could be the closest analogy. his board of advisors is supposed to be his -- it is astonishing the degree to which there is such feelty to him. >> they're bullied by him.

they' they're intimidated by him. so they don't want that to happen to them. okay. and so they're -- they're bullied by him. they're intimidated by him. they don't want to get -- if they're in the senate. they don't want to get shamed by him if they're in his government. and so that's what they're doing. but my message to them is who cares? it's the country we're talking about. five or ten years from now, people are going to look back at you and say, really? is that how you acted in a time of national crisis? is that how you acted? you know, margaret b. chase went after joe mccarthy. everyone got scared. he kicked her off that committee. he put richard nixon on the committee. but ten years later, people look back and said, wow, what were we doing? dwightiz dwight eisenhower said his biggest mistake was not denouncing mccarthy when he was up in wisconsin and mccarthy was denigrating george marshal his old boss. why did i handle myself like

that when my country needed me, i got scared of this lunatic in the white house and i didn't hold myself in a certain way to protect the country and the values of our nation? i mean, come on guys. >> stay here. ajt thi anthony's going to stay with me. and mike bloomberg's latest moves. that's coming up. 's latest moves. that's coming up ♪ (mom vo) it's easy to shrink into your own little world. especially these days. (dad) i think it's here. (mom vo) especially at this age. (big sis) where are we going? (mom vo) it's a big, beautiful world out there. (little sis) whoa... (big sis) wow. see that? (mom vo) sometimes you just need a little help seeing it. (vo) the three-row subaru ascent.

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everywhere. this is "up." i'm david gura. anthony scaramucci back with us as democratic presidential candidate elizabeth warren is gaining momentum and reports wall street is worried about her candidacy. over her rhetoric against the super wealthy, as well as the potential effect of her policies on the economy and the market. that led a number of prominent billionaires to speak out in recent days, including bill gates and hedge fund manager leon cooperman. cooperman in a five page letter to warren defending himself writing for you to suggest that capitalism is a dirty word and these people are ingrates who didn't earn their riches and now don't pull their weight societally indicates you are either grossly uninformed or knowingly warping the facts. since his condemnation of

warren, another billionaire indicated he intends to push back albeit more directly. mike bloomberg has filed paperwork to enter the primary in alabama and he is poised to decide in the coming days if he is going to run for the democratic nomination. let me start there with anthony scaramucci. i know him. i worked for mike bloomberg before this. >> he's somebody who's danced around this for a long time. >> i don't know if he's honestly going through with it or not. i know he's filed but i think he's trying to send a message that if you're too far to the left, as we are talking about prior to the break, you may lose against somebody like president trump. we cannot afford to lose against president trump. >> leon cooperman ecstatic about that. >> lee is my old boss and listen, i like mike a lot. one of my friends a few weeks ago bloomberg 2020.org and 220,000 visitors that site over the last 48 hours.

so if he is running and can figure out a way to get through the jigsaw puzzle of the far left and he wins the nomination, i think he can beat donald trump. >> there's a response to this we've heard from senator warren echoed by senator sanders as well which is this isn't that big a deal. we're paying too much attention to what wall street thinks of this. i think it was george soris that said there are more -- than there are wall streets. >> right. we have to have this conversation in multiple levels because there's some people who are hiding line sort of elizabeth warren's policies and they'll never vote for her because she's a woman. point blank. we have another section of the party where they have said they're not going to vote for her. she's too far to the left. she wants to remake the entire system and we just want to sort of go back to the good ol days. so he's clearly run some polling to see, well, if biden deflates and people feel, democrats feel that elizabeth warren is too far

to the left, bernie fades out. he presents a viable option. i mean, there's a lane that pete buttigieg seems to want to ride and kamala harris as well to a certain extent. but bloomberg i think sees a path for himself. it's a complicated path but it's not a completely unrealistic path. the problem is, we know trump is a thousandair. can he go against a billionaire? we know he's going to frame bloomberg as an elitist. >> little michael is the insult so far. if you were a betting man, as i said he's filed paperwork in alabama, he's petitioning in arkansas. he's not all in yet. your expectation that he will be? >> i stopped making predictions after 2016, david. i think it's pretty clear that, you know, you put up all those articles, right? wall street's freaked out by elizabeth warren. she's not the one who is a socialist. that's bernie sanders. she said i'm a capitalist. so why are they attacking her? because there's actually a possibility coming into focus of her winning this primary. but i think that there's also a

concern that she can win the primary and lose the general. the swing state polls "the new york times" put out last monday showing that, you know, biden beats trump in some of these midwestern swing states but that warren doesn't. sanders doesn't. buttigieg doesn't. and i think there is a lot of, you know, there's maybe there's a little ptsd from 2016 among democrats or internalizing of the punditry or whatever it is. but there's a sense that you look at the top four candidates right now in the democratic side and a lot of people don't necessarily see somebody who can win. corey luewandowski, not going t say he's the -- but, you know, a year or so ago, he said at a breakfast with reporters, we were sitting around talking to him. and he said, you know, the one person who scares me in a general election, i don't know if he would in the primary, but the one person that scares me against trump is michael bloomberg. and i think, you know, his s centrism, maybe we imagine there's more in this country than there is. but if you're a democrat and

you're choosing between bloomberg and trump, you'll choose bloomberg. if you are' republican and you're choosing between bloomberg and elizabeth warren, you'll choose bloomberg. so i think that's maybe the thinking. >> quickly to eli. corey knows the president very, very well and he knows that the mayor could get under the president's skin. >> as he did after the dnc. >> he's 50 times richer or 200 million times richer or whatever it is. but he's also a new yorker and he's very, very tough. you worked with him and i know him well. he's a tough guy. but the last thing on capitalism, you got to be very, very careful with capital itself because capital flows to incentives and if she corrupts the incentives in the society, you will disrupt the flow. >> you and i first spoke now about a decade ago. you were backing obama. whoa, things were different back then. >> let me explain that. i'm a lifelong republican. president obama and i knew each other in law school. i was politically agnostic at the time. working as a business entrepreneur. had given checks to chuck

schumer, as donald trump did. given checks to secretary clinton, as donald trump did did. i say, jeez, how many times in my life am i going to know somebody running for president? >> it's a crowded race already. >> let me ask you about elizabeth warren. >> i didn't expect to be in the white house for 11 days either. >> you mentioned what she may or may not do to business. >> the carton of milk. where it is you go. >> here, i am katy. >> getting back to business and warren, though. she's incredibly smart. she's devoted her life to this. she's a law professor at your alma mater. there's such a defense of tact. saw it with bill gates this week. >> she went after the banks so hard after the crisis. >> it's her job and her life's work. >> okay. so that's why. you just asking me. i'm not going to push back on it. i'm telling you they're not going to budge on her. and --

>> are you still of the belief that banks were not at fault for what happened during the crisis? >> okay. we're going to talk about that? the government -- the government, main street, people were overstating their financial statements to get larger houses. there was a governmental edict to those banks that they needed to lend more money in those areas. there's a -- there was a very big nexus and triangle there that caused that crash. >> several points on the nexus but not saying wall street. >> i just said is wall street responsible? absolutely. there's a lot of regulation clamped down on wall street but you got to be very careful. there may be many main streets. wall street is the structure of capital flow and when you want great technology, great innovation, great biotechnology, you got to make sure those spigots are open. >> anthony scaramucci, thank you very much. he was communication struck for 11 days.

>> you can say 954,000 seconds. >> who's counting? nearly -- nearly two weeks. we'll round up. coming up on "up," roger stone on trial, why the judge doesn't want jurors watching a certain mafia movie and why that could be key to the prosecutor's case down in washington. ld be key to the prosecutor's case down in washington nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? not again. limu that's your reflection. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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that. >> i'm david gura. the trial of long time confidante roger stone took an unusual turn this week when the judge instructed jurors not to watch the god father after there were numerous references to that movie during the trial. roger stone charged with lying to congress, obstructing justice, and witness tampering related to his efforts to contact wikileaks during the 2016 campaign. prosecutors say the 67-year-old stone threatened talk show host. witness stone claims as an intermediary. stones efforts to silence him. a reference to the clip we showed just moments ago from that god father movie. and in that movie -- when testifying before congress, yesterday we saw another key testimony with steve bannon taking the stand in stone's trial. major figure during the 2016 campaign. bannon told the court stone had a relationship or told me he had a relationship with wikileaks saying he was led to believe stone also had a relationship with julian assange.

rachel winer joins us now. she's been in the courtroom over the course of this week. let's start just with the atmospherics, the mood of the courtroom, of course during jury selection, roger stone had to be excused. he had food poisoning. get us up to speed where we are in the course of this and what happened with steve bannon's testimony yesterday. >> so steve bannon's testimony was brief and somber compared to what came before with randy critico, which was really two-day comedy routine essentially interspersed with some testimony that was pretty damaging for roger stone. but bannon was serious. he said he was being forced to testify. he made that clear both in and out of the courtroom. but at the same time, he was not hesitant to say, yes, in fact, roger stone had claimed connections to wikileaks. said throughout the campaign and before the campaign that he could contact julian assange and was seen by the campaign as their access point to wikileaks, should they need one.

>> help us understand just the recent history here. this is the last off chute of the mueller investigation. this is something born of the mueller investigation. situate that for us. how important is what's happening here? >> i'm reeling from that "god father" clip. i can envision rudy giuliani saying i don't know anything. i don't know anything about this. right? that's going to be giuliani saying. sorry. the bannon testimony was damning. you didn't need to keep him on the stand if you're the prosecution that long. the fact that he said that stone was the conduit to wikileaks completely undercuts his defense, stone's defense that, you know, i didn't really mean to lie and i was played by critico and i was played by coursy and then i lied for the puffery. you know, the bottom line is the fact that there was even any type of glee or any type of humor really kills me because it talks about interference in our presidential election. i think people need to realize that this is the last trial from the mueller investigation and

that stone lied to the house intel committee when he said that he did not have e-mails or texts and that he did not have contact. and i think it's a really poor defense. i think it's really inadequate to say, yeah, i lie and i lied but you can trust me now because i'm telling the truth now. that never works. >> right. i mean, morgan had a great documentary, you know, "get me roger stone." i think katy is completely correct. these are men who have been blustering through their entire careers. now, they're splitting hairs where it's i have been lying. i told you i knew these people. i told you i had access. but now i'm on the stand, i know i lied the last time i was on the stand to a different group of people but now you should trust me. so hopefully, chickens come home to roost not just be roger stone but with the entire administration because we see, if you lie, you cheat. if you cheat, you steal. and if you steal, you lie. everybody surrounded around donald trump is guilty of one, two, or three.

>> all of the above. >> rachel, help us understand the particular difficulties of this trial. what the judge has to deal with. roger stone was talking a lot. he was tweeting a lot. he was posting pictures. there were efforts at gag orders. now we have this with regard to the god father 2. she has her hands full just navigating this trial. >> she does but she's shown herself to be very capable of doing that. very direct, serious, efficient but good natured. the gag order it seems has really worked. he has not made any public statements. some of his associates around info wars have tried to out jurors unsuccessfully. but she issued a warning on friday saying that anyone doing that could find themselves a -- of the law. so she's been no nonsense about that. even she was a little amused when randy critico was testifying and trying to do imp preg pre impressions but got him back on track and said we know you're a comedian but this is business. i think she's managed to keep

the circus under control. >> so much as she can. and eli, you watch all this unfold. stone's throw away from what's happening on capitol hill. how do we prose those two things? yes, it's insulated in this courtroom. but impeachment hearings -- >> i don't know america has the bandwidth mentally to process everything going on. i certainly don't. but i think, you know, if you think about these two things together, you know, and certainly all the people who are around the president who have been found giluilty of crimes o on trial for crimes. i mean, that's an obvious theme for one. but two, you know, they're talking about 2016 and donald trump being out there on the stump saying wikileaks, i love wikileaks and reading the wikileaks e-mails sort of every day at the rally. we're getting at here where it was coming from, right? now, we're in the middle of an impeachment saga that starts with a side channel to ukraine. efforts to sort of reverse engineer this conspiracy theory about ukraine meddling in the election to help hilary clinton. bogus. the reality, and we're still seeing this come into greater

definition with this trial and things that are coming out on top of the mueller report and all the other information that we have, but the meddling that was happening in this election was not from ukraine. right? it was from -- it was from russia. it was wikileaks. it was all sort of ties together and you see the president in terms of the ukraine story almost trying to -- to project something on to another country to want to believe this -- this other story line that's actually completely false to extosort of avoid the obvious facts about the real story line of election interference. and that's another thing fiona hill mentioned. >> david, don't rule out the potential for a pardon. this is a federal case for roger stone. i hate to be the bearer of bad news. buzz kill today. but don't rule out the potential. >> we'll leave it there. rachel winer, thank you very much. thanks to my panel for the hour. eli, christina, and katy.

coming up, pete buttigieg speaks on t-- ahead of the 2020 race. that's coming up next. -- ahead . that's coming up next.

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buttigieg is on a four day bus tour. attempted to make another pitch to voters on why he's the best to take on president trump in a crowd you had field of democratic contenders. >> something like 20 candidates, everybody overlaps in some way, but i think what i'm offering is just different from all of the others. life experience, the vision, the approach, the style b and the policies that i put together i think are the right answer for what america needs right now and it's what's fuelling success so far on the trail. >> my colleague josh spoke with mayor buttigieg and joins us now from lebanon, new hampshire. great to see you. there's been a lot of talk, just occupying this middle lane. as we've had conversations about mike bloomberg getting into the race, there's concern that he might e red some of the support butt u butt has. i imagine that came up this

morning. >> yeah, he's really saying he's running his own race. doesn't u want to comment on blool bloomberg, but the other factors is while mayor pete is really surging in iowa, coming in second place in a lot of polls there, he hasn't caught up to those numbers here in new hampshire. new hampshire's really important because he's not likely to do really well in south carolina which will come after iowa and new hampshire. he's still polling in single digits there, still struggling with african-american voters so his campaign wants the one two punch of a strong showing first in iowa then in new hampshire to help give him some momentum to carry him through south carolina if he dupt do as well there. we're seeing a lot of momentum for mayor here pete here in new hampshire. you can see folks lining up, l volunteers who are going to be working on his town hall event here today. he's got a couple of other events here in new hampshire today. all this taking place as back in washington, democrats are focused on that other battle against donald trump. the impeachment battle with

those public hearings starting next week. i want you to hear what mayor pete told us. >> i want your assessment on how democrats are doing in prosecuting this case. >> i think the transparency going to be important and positive. up to know, it's been a preliminary process and like most preliminary processes, not all has been visible to us in the public. that's about to change and i think that will shed a lot more light on what's happening. >> and david, mayor pete son day two of his four day bus tour here in iowa heading up north to the top of the state tomorrow near the borders with vermont and maine. he's trying to blanket as much of new hampshire as possible. >> he's a candidate with a will the of cash on hand and i wonder if we have new insight on how he plans to deploy that. he's in new hampshire now trying to make enroads there, looking

into south carolina. what's the campaign saying about how they intend to deploy those resources here in the coming weeks? >> yeah, it's a mix of starting to put out some ads. they have some digital athds here, on to television as well. as well as the ground game. he has a dozen offices here. many r more staff on the ground in new hampshire. they're building out that campaign staff trying to have field organizers out talking to people, get iting them to commi. they have people here signing cards saying they're pledging to vote r for mare pete in the primary so he's trying to make as much one-on-one contact either between himself and the voters r or between his staffers. >> and you mentioned the concern about black voter support. what's the campaign doing to change that picture on this campaign? it's something he's been hit on by other democrats over the course of the week. >> yeah, his emp is sis has been on the fact that he needs to show black voters that he cares about they concerns. he's rolled out a douglas plan to help african-americans

particularly with prosperity and economic well being. he also says that it's important for him to be b talking about issues of systemic racism, not only when talking to black audiences, but all kinds of audiences. >> all right. on day two. josh in new hampshire for us today. coming up u tomorrow, my interview with the woman who flipped off the republican then flipped off the seat when juli briskman joins me. coming up on a.m. joy, joy returns. robert di near o is going b to be on with her. that's coming up u next here on msnbc. her that c'soming up u next here on msnbc. it's easy to shrink into your own little world. especially these days. (dad) i think it's here. de niro . de niro test. (mom vo) especially at this age. (big sis) where are we going? (mom vo) it's a big, beautiful world out there.

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that does it for me. thank you very much more watching. a.m. joy starts right now. >> we keep on using this uf mystic expression quid pro quo. the actual term for what occurred is extortion and extorres is is a crime. >> i think the allegation is extortion. >> it is illegal. i think it constitutes a bribe. that to me is extortion and or bribery because you are bribing an official of another country. >> good morning and welcome to a.m. joy? remember me? i'm back and yes there was a

story behind that which i will have more on later in the show. we have a big show today including a nuts and bolts explainer on medicare for all and robert de niro will be here, yes, but first, we are just over two weeks away from one of the most beloved american food h holidays, thanksgiving, where problematic actual history meets delicious cuisine and many will be heading home to spend time are family and friends, eat a little too much and perhaps engage in a political debate with your cranky uncle rosco when he starts yelling, read the transcript. but fear now, we are going to help you get tru it all by tell ing you everything you need to understand about impeachment. so that you can easily explain to uncle rosco and auntie carol before you all settle in to yell at each other about football, thus far in the probe, you've been hearing about all of these different characters.